Avatar

@alvindraperzzz

Either a dork or a chipmunk. Unless expressly stated otherwise, the comics I refer to are pre-Flashpoint.

I’m getting really into Helena Bertinelli for the first time while trying to make a Batman comics AU timeline involving her and… I’m SO confused about her backstory. Cry for Blood is my main source for her characterizion and story, and I understand that this timeline is a retcon of the previous one where she was nineteen instead of eight during her family’s massacre, but is Huntress: Year One the same timeline? Or are the original Huntress run, Year One and Cry for Blood all different versions of events?

Specifically, what exactly happened between her watching her family die and operating as the Huntress in Gotham? How long did she live in Sicily and Switzerland? How much time did she actually spend in Gotham to be inspired by Batman? ‘Cause it doesn’t seem like a lot. When were her uncle and cousin arrested? Why did they go back to Gotham at all after the massacre of their relatives? How did she go from being okay with the Mafia to its greatest enemy while raised by them? Or was that after the arrests, when she was on her own? Is there a good, logical, well-written canon consensus on these details or would I have better luck making something up myself?

Helena Bertinelli has had many a retcon to her origin over the years. Direct answers can be hard to find in characters that have been written many times by many different authors. To go over a general overview of post-crisis:

As you mention, her original introduction to post-crisis comics in The Huntress (1989) does have her being a young adult when her family was massacred. It also has her being based out of New York. While I quite like this series and origin for her, most of the series has been completely reconnected out of existence.

When she was re-introduced as a Bat comic supporting character in Detective Comics #652 and #653, she was retconned to be from Gotham instead of New York, though a number of elements of her original backstory, including the fact that she had been an adult when the massacre happened remained the same.

Batman/Huntress: Cry for Blood, was a major retcon for her and lays out a whole new character history. If you want to build an AU timeline, you'll be just fine using that as a source. That origin introduced her being 8 when her family was massacred, the same age as Bruce, a retcon that has carried forward.

Huntress: Year One is another retelling of her origin, which is primarily building off of her origin in Cry for Blood, only expanding it more and digging into, well, her first year as the Huntress. She's still 8 here when she's orphaned. There are some changes to the timeline that are made. This also removes her taking influence from Batman to become a vigilante.

To answer some of your questions:

Pre-Cry for Blood

In Huntress '89, very soon after the massacre (probably no more than a week), she goes with her bodygaurd, tony, to be trained. It is unclear how long she spends training, but it likely isn't very long. She is not inspired by Batman to become a vigilante. She was kept largely separate from the family business as a child and primarily sets out as the Huntress to avenge her family's death. After that's done, she finds that she has trouble living a normal life and continues to help people, growing disillusioned with her father. She does not really crusade against the mob until she's reintroduced in Gotham comics. There it's implied to be a mixture of desire for personal revenge for what caused her family's death, familiarity, and personal distaste for what they do, from what I recall.

Cry for Blood

After her family is massacred, Helena spends 7 years living with the Asaros in Sicily. She is training under Sal from age 11-15. When she's 15, her uncle and cousin arrested and she goes to boarding school in Switzerland where she begins to understand the truth of the mafia and hate them. At 16, the Cassemotos bring her back to Gotham for Christmas, thinking it's safe which is when she sees Batman and is inspired. She then spends probably the next 4-6 years planning and preparing before she finally returns to Gotham to get her revenge and fight against the mob. (It isn't specifiied by she finished boarding school and enrolls in university in Palermo).

Huntress: Year One

The timeline is largely the same when it comes to the massacre and the Asaro's arrest. They were arrested about 5 years before her 21st birthday, placing her at 15-16. She then goes to school in switzerland before returning to Sicily. Unlike in Cry for Blood, Helena hates the mob from the start from the violence she has continually see them commit. From what I remember, university is never mentioned. She does not return to Gotham before becoming the Huntress, and comes up with the idea and costume separately. She also does not want to return to Gotham, but eventually needs to return to pursue her vengeance.

Conclusion:

I personally mix and match elements as I please when writing Helena's origin. If you want a single comic as a touch-point, I would just stick with Cry for Blood as it's the strongest in opinion. I think that's also the one people are more likely to know. You won't go wrong using that as your base, and filling in the gaps as needed.

We can assume Stephanie is what Dixon, a very conservative guy who adored his character creation, considered an example of a ‘good’ teenage mother,

the first thing being the obvious fact that she decides to keep the baby and not only does she keep it, she is very vocally against the idea of an abortion, quite literally yelling at anyone who suggests it

the second is her decision to give the baby up for adoption, she understands that she wouldn’t be able to give the baby the life it needs, but something Dixon highlights is that she isn’t selling the baby, she’s not looking to get any money out of it

the adoption agency she lands on is called st swithins, a place with a catholic name, something we know from Robin 1991 is that Dixon considers being Christian to be something very righteous (hence why Shiva says tim not killing is very Christian and white of him)

which is what leads me to believe part of the reason Dixon considers Steph a “good” example of a teenage mother is that presumably she’s Christian (later possibly proved by having a priest lead her funeral) and that she’s white

We don’t ever meet Cynda Reed, but the implication from both of her friends being black is that presumably she is also, because Dixon is Dixon, not only does he write these unnamed friends to be completely clueless about the concept of what having a baby would actually be like, Stephanie assumes Cynda is equally unaware

The only thing we know about Cynda is that she has already gone though the pregnancy, has had her daughter and is taking care of her, in comparison to Steph who is still going though her pregnancy, hasn’t given birth yet and has decided to give it up for adoption, Cynda would be completely aware of what she has and is going though, far more so than Steph, but Steph is painted to be the informed one in this scenario, to the point of calling Cynda a moron

now I don’t think the reason Dixon added this scene was to make his fav character seem racist (although she does share a lot of his views and complied with Steph’s later treatment of Star and Jordanna it’s slightly concerning) but I do think the reason he added the scene of “having a baby isn’t cool” with black girls specifically was because of another comic

Icon is a comic released prior to Stephanie’s pregnancy arc in Robin 1993 and very likely inspired it, the comic has a very different look at teenage pregnancy with the main character of rocket, with everything that happened in icon the opposite seems to happen in Robin

Stephanie is very against the idea of an abortion while raquel considers it, crystal is very supportive of Steph while raquels mother is very unsupportive, Steph calls Cynda a moron while Raquel supports another pregnant teen (who does get an abortion), Stephanie gives the baby up while Raquel makes the decision to keep her son etc.

TLDR: I think the reason Dixon wrote the pregnancy arc was because he wanted to write his own “good” (conservative) version of this very iconic story, pun not intended (also he’s a racist if that wasn’t clear)

we're definitely at the point where having two Helena Waynes and two Helena Bertinellis would actually be clearer for everyone than whatever DC is doing right now with Huntress

Ultimately fixing Helena Wayne is pretty easy. We just say that JSA Golden Age!Helena isn't from Earth-2 and we're golden:

  • Helena Wayne #1: Earth-2 Helena Wayne. Formerly stranded in the main universe, stole White!Helena Bertinelli's identity while she was there, back home now. Formerly Robin and Huntress, currently Batman.
  • Helena Wayne #2: Johns JSA: The Golden Age's Helena Wayne, from a dark alternate future that is not Earth-2. Currently stranded in the main universe, currently Huntress.

Fixing Helena Bertinelli is a lot harder, but if we give her the Wally/Ace West treatment and make post-Crisis/post-Infinite Frontier!Helena and New 52/Rebirth era!Helena two separate characters and cousins, the retcon can pretty easily be integrated:

  • Helena Rosa Bertinelli #1 (white): post-Crisis+post-2021 (Shadows of the Bat: The Tower) Helena. From Gotham, daughter of Maria and Franco Bertinelli of the Gotham Bertinelli Crime Family (biologically the daughter of Maria and Santo Cassamento), watched her whole family get murdered in front of her as a child. Currently Huntress.
  • Helena Bertinelli #2 (black): Helena Bertinelli's cousin from the Sicily branch of the Bertinellis. Granddaughter of Frank Bertinelli, the head of the Sicilian mob, and being groomed to take over for him before she ran away. Formerly Matron of Spyral, briefly Huntress while Helena #1 was out of the country and thought to be dead. TBD on current status.

Splitting Helena Bertinelli into two different characters and making them cousins would fix literally everything that's wrong with Helena post-2011. The different backstories and personalities, the different familial connections and motivations, Helena W being able to steal Helena B's identity without anyone looking at her twice, the inconsistent skin tone, etc. Unfortunately DC probably won't even think about it, but it would absolutely be the best option at this point.

The cousin of "he would not say that:" he would not keep saying that. It was a one off funny line for one particular situation. Every memorable line does not need to become a running gag.

hi, a lot of you need a perspective reset

  • the average human lifespan globally is 70+ years
  • taking the threshold of adulthood as 18, you are likely to spend at least 52 years as a fully grown adult
  • at the age of 30 you have lived less than one quarter of your adult life (12/52 years)
  • 'middle age' is typically considered to be between 45-65
  • it is extremely common to switch careers, start new relationships, emigrate, go to college for the first or second time, or make other life-changing decisions in middle age
  • it's wild that I even have to spell it out, but older adults (60+) still have social lives and hobbies and interests.
  • you can still date when you get old. you can still fuck. you can still learn new skills, be fashionable, be competitive. you can still gossip, you can still travel, you can still read. you can still transition. you can still come out.
  • young doesn't mean peaked. you're inexperienced in your 20s! you're still learning and practicing! you're developing social skills and muscle memory that will last decades!
  • there are a million things to do in the world, and they don't vanish overnight because an imaginary number gets too big

I'll be 69 this summer. One of the joys in my life is still going to comic/fantasy/sci-fi conventions. People look at me and they see a plump, Ohio grandmother and assume I'm only here as an escort for my grandkids. Last year I had a Nightwing cosplayer start to man-splain to me about the character. I held up a hand to stop him, saying that I've been following the adventures of Dick Grayson since before his mother was born. The look on that young man's face was one that I will savor for years.

There is a vast difference between growing up and growing old. You'll be an adult for most of your life. Take this old Bat-Gran's advice and always remember that there is no age limit on fun. Collect that Godzilla plushie, the Batman figure and keep playing the games you like. If you can keep that spark of joy alive then, no matter your age when you leave this world, you will have had a life well lived.

do u guys ever think about how tim is living proof that no small kindness dick does is ever irrelevant or unimportant

tim remembers dick because of the tragedy, yes, but also because they met first. dick was kind to him, and dick was probably kind to all little kids in that same way, but to tim it was memorable. to tim that little kindness was everything. tim loved him from then on, and for six more years until he found out dick was robin even, just because of that small kindness. dick’s efforts will never be in vain. every small kindness he shows has an impact.

skirting just under the finish line for @90skonweek ! i've been crazy busy all week but i just had to get something out for my favorite era of my favorite guy... consider this originally for day 3's prompt: media!

You are using an unsupported browser and things might not work as intended. Please make sure you're using the latest version of Chrome, Firefox, Safari, or Edge.