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September 11
Proposal: AI generated images must be clear they're AI in the file name
Latest comment: 15 hours ago106 comments38 people in discussion
Now these are being used for a good purpose (reporting on the misuse of AI at en:Wikipedia:Signpost) so please don't just nominate them for deletion, but look at these filenames:
Now I've moved them to File:AI genetated image of... - but that's just actively setting people up to use semi-believable illustrations that have no scientific accuracy, and then making it relatively hard to catch what happened.
File names for AI generated images not indicating that's what they are is definitely an issue. There's no reason there shouldn't be some indication in the file name that an image is AI generated. I think it would be in alignment with the changes to guideline on how to name files that was passed recently to. Regardless, file names should be as descriptive as possible and I can't see why that information shouldn't be included in the file name. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
An alternative would be to add a tag to the media without requiring files to be moved or named with that in the title from the start. Just like any NSFW image has an indicator for that on sites like reddit. It would be shown on all files in Category:AI-generated images either at the end of the file-title or e.g. within a corner of the thumbnail. I think adding that automatically would be better. However, when uploading the file using the Upload Wizard and checking made with AI one could also automatically append (AI-generated) or (made using AI) to the file-title. Prototyperspective (talk) 11:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
The template only shows on the file page. And even there it doesn't look very different from other common license templates which people only interested in the content usually probably don't look at either and many files like the linked examples don't even have these templates. Prototyperspective (talk) 12:47, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support The file name and caption are the first things you see when you select an image that's used on Wikipedia for better viewing, right before you click through to the file's own page. For most people it'll probably be the only information they'll see. This information is absolutely important enough that it should be mentioned in the file name. ReneeWrites (talk) 13:03, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support per ReneeWrites. I agree that having AI generated marked in the file name will give Wikipedia users much more transparency on the provenance of files. William Graham (talk) 15:36, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Oppose. Nice idea, but I prefer templates that can be translated and add properties. Latin letters in a filename are not a good clue in other scripts. We may have endless rename requests. File naming hacks are also not systematic; we do not routinely encode other properties in filenames. Glrx (talk) 15:47, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
At the same time, an actively misleading filename is a problem. They are not leucocytes (for example. They don't even look much like cells. AI is very good at creating images that look like they're plausible depictions but really aren't, they just ape the - for lack of a better word - art style of real scientific illustrations, coloured electron microscope depictions, and so on. Adam Cuerden (talk) 16:05, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
we do not routinely encode other properties in filenames - We routinely use naming systems like "Flag of [Country]" for other types of files. Using filenames to make important disclosures about the origin of files isn't a huge leap. Omphalographer (talk) 19:11, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support Update with caveat: my support is for this idea in principle, with the understanding that we would need an additional discussion about implementation to cover things like wording. — Rhododendritestalk | 12:32, 12 September 2024 (UTC) This is a good idea, and in line with the spirit of many off-wiki policies proposed for AI content. It also doesn't preclude a template. The question, though, is what label/language should be used. It would need to be something someone wouldn't choose accidentally for a non-AI image. Also, documentation for this rule would need to be clear that we're talking about media that is produced through generative AI models (as opposed to, say, a scientific visualization in which machine learning was used somewhere in the process). — Rhododendritestalk | 16:10, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I wouldn't be too concerned about language necessarily. If the filename is not in a language people speak, they're much more likely to check the decription. We don't need a perfect solution, just an improvement. Adam Cuerden (talk) 16:14, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Comment - This is a good idea, but it needs refinement. Besides Rhododendrites's caveat's above, I think it should only apply to images which depict something in a realistic manner. There's not much point requiring this for something like File:Portrait of a Unicorn.png. Otherwise, I would only support it as a recommendation, not a requirement. Nosferattus (talk) 18:21, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
We shouldn't be mass changing file titles without a compelling reason. It just generally causes chaos. I think files being factually misleading is a compelling reason, but otherwise, I'm not convinced. Nosferattus (talk) 16:57, 15 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'd say there's a class of images where it matters less. But a human-made illustration probably has some effort to get key aspects, whatever those might be. AI just tries to get something that looks like other images with similar key words, and might miss out important bits that a human wouldn't. Honestly, as a general rule, the higher the likelihood it'd be used on Wikipedia, the more that's an issue. Adam Cuerden (talk) 19:34, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Agreed on Nosferattus' conditional support: images that can be mistaken for something else, should be marked, and the filename is the most obvious place to do so. By the way, this also applies to photoshop fabrications of "real life flower elfs" etc. And from a filemover perspective: We are supposed to only rename files that are realistically going to be kept. Is there even a rationale to keep misleading non-scientific AI illustrations? I mean, beyond illustrating how you can't trust AI illustrations? --Enyavar (talk) 00:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support, as we should use any (and all) means to achieve maximum transparency for re-users about the non-authenticity of AI-generated images. --Túrelio (talk) 18:27, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support: I don't see any downside. One remark, though: like everything else on Commons, this should not be restricted to English, and I don't imagine I would recognize something if it were marked in Chinese as AI. How do we intend to deal with the multilingual aspect of this? - Jmabel ! talk19:32, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
As I said above, I think that perfection isn't needed. If it's labelled in Chinese, as long as the whole filename is in Chinese, Anglosphere people will presumably go to the description. They might not for one that has a plausible English filename. Adam Cuerden (talk) 19:37, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yep. In a Czech file name, the warning should be in Czech, and in a Japanese file name, in Japanese - tailored to the native languages these images are likely to get used for. And if I'm that determined to use a cool image with Tamil filename in the German WP, I the user must make sure to understand the filename and description. (GTranslate exists.) --Enyavar (talk) 00:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Comment from a filemover. If you want to apply this requirement to files after upload, you should amend Commons:File renaming to make it clear that lacking a statement of AI-generation in the filename is good cause for renaming. Either by adding a new numbered criterion or by finding a way to shoehorn it into an existing one (2 or 3, I'd guess). --bjh21 (talk) 21:01, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Bjh21: You could argue, in clear cases like the ones I mentioned earlier, it's already covered by 2, since they aren't actually pictures of (say) leukocyctes, but I agree that adding an example would help. Adam Cuerden (talk) 20:40, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
It'd be nice to expand criterion 2 to allow adding information about the non-factual nature of an image in general (e.g. AI generated images, simulations, reenactments, historical reconstructions, artistic representations, etc). Omphalographer (talk) 22:40, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I believe that ALL substantially manipulated or fabricated images, that might be misunderstood as "real", should be very clearly marked. It shouldn't depend only on whether someone decides or rules that the fabrication method was "AI". ITookSomePhotos (talk) 21:37, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support AI generated images must have "AI" in the file name as a principle, perhaps even better would be "AI generated", which is more clear. And always at least in Latin letters. Yes, the backlog might be a problem, but we can start now for new uploads. --JopkeB (talk) 05:12, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
What do people think about when uploading the file using the Upload Wizard and checking made with AI one could also automatically append (AI-generated) or (made using AI) to the file-title? (No replies on that above or on the idea of a tag displayed dynamically next to the file-title and in the thumbnail.) I think doing something automatically and in a standardized way would be better than just requiring this which many uploaders will not follow up on. Prototyperspective (talk) 10:49, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Given that the Upload Wizard already asks about AI tools, I think it would be appropriate for it to ensure that uploads using them follow whatever policy arises from this discussion. --bjh21 (talk) 17:26, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support. on top of this, if we need to rename these files, i suggest requiring the new name to begin with " «AI generated» " or " ~AI generated ". this will make them appear behind all ascii letters when sorted alphabetically. RoyZuo (talk) 13:58, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
If you want to change where something sorts, I think it's better to do it using {{DEFAULTSORT}} rather than by requiring a particular pattern in the filename. --bjh21 (talk) 15:46, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Please no. This makes file names unnecessarily difficult to type - most keyboards don't have «» keys, and ~ is difficult to find on many mobile devices. The goal is to label these files, not to make them difficult to use. Omphalographer (talk) 22:53, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
It really depends on the meaning of "Special", lest we ban, say, Korean file names, or accents. We have French filenames with French-style quotes in them, and we shouldn't change those. At the same time, we have default sort; let's not make it a policy to name AI images File:💩AI generated💩 Foobar.jpgAdam Cuerden (talk) 10:03, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
That's not really what I'm talking about. I don't think arbitrary putting brackets in file names is useful though. Maybe circle brackets, but «» or ~. If for no other reason then most keyboards don't have them to begin with. I'm also super annoyed by file names with emojis them though. They should 100% be banned. I'd be totally fine with requiring people put (AI generated image) at the end of a file name though. --Adamant1 (talk) 10:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Aye, merely trying to avoid bad policy coming out of this. Should we append characters at the start of filenames to deprioritise them? No. That's a job for {{DEFAULTSORT}}. But «» are the standard quotes used in French, so we shouldn't ban their use, lest we require bad French. I'm a little bit of a stickler for trying to avoid policy for one situation that screws up other situations. Adam Cuerden (talk) 15:38, 14 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Keep it simple. Just put "AI" infront of the filename. Those who want to know more can check the summary / category of a file for details. Alexpl (talk) 11:06, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Please rather put it at the end of the filename. Moreover, "AI" is ambiguous and also included in many other files, so again I'd suggest (AI-generated) or (made using AI) and this could be appended to the initial file-titles automatically in the Upload Wizard. Prototyperspective (talk) 11:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
the thing is, if you prepend filenames with A, it's counterproductive to your aim (discouraging use of ai files as illustrations) because then all the ai files will occupy the front rows in categories (unless you add defaultsort of a super "late" unicode to the ai template). RoyZuo (talk) 18:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
The examples people have brought up in support or as examples in this discussion include "AI generated", not just AI. Edit: Except for Alexpl's comment. ReneeWrites (talk) 14:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support When images are used internally editors know to check the filepage, when outside people reuse the images they are usually not aware of the info on the files page. We have had people reusing images without complying to the terms of the license by naming the creator. I would like to see (AI generated) the way we use "(cropped)" in file names. --RAN (talk) 18:06, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Ooh, that's a good point - if a user saves an image from Commons (or another wiki) to their computer, for instance, there's a decent chance that its file name will remain intact as a warning. A template on the file's talk page certainly won't. Omphalographer (talk) 18:13, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Strong oppose no no no, file names shouldn't be used for that. This opens up Pandora's box for controversial subjects. This should be in the file description, not in the name. Multichill (talk) 12:53, 15 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Comment Why do we even accept AI generated images to begin with? Most of them are misleading, useless for Wikipedia articles, fake-y look as standalone content, and can be barely trusted. AI images should only be limited to very specific scenarios, otherwise we end up with a bunch of superheros holding the Commons logo, which we can all agree is largely a set of very interesting trademark violations and not consistent with community practices. Moreover, there have been recently a number of court cases around copyright infringement for several of these AI companies, so I'm concerned that we can't distinguish the provenance from different models that may or may not be trained on infringing datasets. We have no idea how this is going to be regulated.
Comment I generally think templates and/or structured data are a better way to do this, and more multilingual-friendly. But I'm not opposed to also requiring it in file names if the community agrees on that (and I will anyway include in the filename of any AI files I upload myself). Noting that I have made a related proposal below: #Proposal: de-prioritise AI images in searchthe wub"?!"15:09, 19 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support this would prevent problems with AI images being mistaken for real ones, and I really don’t see how this could potentially be harmful. Dronebogus (talk) 11:13, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm sensing pretty widespread support, so let's plan out what would need changed:
Commons:File renaming: #2 gains "To identify AI generated works" with a possible more general version of "to point out major manipulations" (colourization, etc). This is explicitly allowed to be in any language.
Commons:AI-generated media notes that the AI-generation must be mentioned in the filename, ideally in the same language as the rest of the filename.
File upload wizard appends "AI generated" if the AI creation option is ticked, with the option to change this after, but with a note saying that identifying AI art in filenames is important. Alternatively, this can just be a soft prompt, that suggests a new filename, but doesn't require. (Similar to others where you can click "ignore and upload file anyway)
I think #4 should either not be implemented or be for files in Category:AI misgeneration. Images shouldn't be sorted by how they were produced but by by where the user is expecting to find them / looking for them or generally the relevance and quality of the image as it relates to the category concept, not the method/techniques used to produce it. You may have missed an addition to Commons:File naming. Prototyperspective (talk) 20:40, 14 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Added File naming, and you're probably right about #4. Wanted to pull all the suggestions made, but that may be too much (if nothing else, AI image categories wouldn't do the headers for first letter of filename). Adam Cuerden (talk) 11:44, 15 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
#3 and #4 are terrible ideas. #3 will cause uploader confusion, filename conflicts, language issues, etc. This needs to be done by humans, not machines. #4 will also be confusing as no one will expect {{PD-algorithm}} to mess with the sorting. Plus it's just unneeded and potentially unhelpful, as there may be other reasons an AI-generated file needs to be sorted in a particular way. Nosferattus (talk) 17:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don't think they're terrible ideas, but I don't think these two are needed. We're not inundated with such a flood of AI-generated images being uploaded to Commons that these couldn't be done by hand, and a lot more people have filemover rights than admin rights, so this wouldn't add to the backlog of issues needing admin attention. ReneeWrites (talk) 09:46, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Okay. Then let's focus on points 1, 1b, and 2. For 1b, I'm thinking (under "Clear")
"Where an image, either through method of creation or modifications, might mislead, this should be noted in the filename. This includes AI generation, colourization of a photograph, turning a sepia image black and white, upscaling an image, and other things that might not be immediately obvious. Simple, minor fixes do not need to be noted."
This discussion is about AI, and I think we should stick with that. I've seen way too many discussions get killed the moment they gain any traction because people keep attaching stuff to it that is tangentially related that no consensus was reached on. ReneeWrites (talk) 15:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
1a: Support "To identify AI generated works" sounds good to me.
1b: Comment I think it would be more at home under "Descriptive", specifically the subheader "Correct". There's nothing particularly unclear about the filename "Cancer cell.jpg", but it leaves out a lot of pretty crucial context that makes it pretty misleading.
I'd like to propose this change: Correct – The name should describe the file's content and convey what the subject is actually called. Inaccurate names for the file subject, although they may be common, should be avoided. The title given to a work of art by the artist that created it is considered appropriate, even if the name has nothing to do with what is depicted (for example, many works of Dadaism). The name should also be free of obvious errors, such as misspelled proper nouns, incorrect dates, and misidentified objects or organisms. Users are allowed to upload "unidentified" or "unknown" organisms but such files may be renamed upon identification. AI-generated images must disclose this fact in the file name.
It's tempting to include a bit on the rationale as to why, but none of the other examples have that either, they simply state what is policy. So I think addressing this with just one line that's clear and unambiguous is both pragmatic and in line with how the rest is written. ReneeWrites (talk) 15:50, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Made a slight adjustment to the wording. A lot of the file names on Commons made with Dall-E or Midjourney have that in their file name, which should also cover this base. ReneeWrites (talk) 08:42, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Okay. If no-one else has suggestions after a couple days, let's bring 1, 1b (with your text), and 2 together, ping everyone involved in the original discussion, and implement. Secondary ideas can be considered after that. Adam Cuerden (talk) 17:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
May be worth a clear call on whether AI upscaled photos should fall under "AI generated" for all this, given their similar potential for being misleading when the viewer doesn't realise that an AI was involved (eg. File:2Pac Passport (cropped).jpg, where one Wikipedia editor was pleased to find what they described as a "free-use authentic high quality photograph" of the subject on Commons, but no, it's just an upscale of an old and extremely low quality passport photo). Belbury (talk) 12:58, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
It's not AI-generated, it's AI-upscaled which is very different. It needs separate templates and categories which also warn the user about issues like potential inaccuracies. Prototyperspective (talk) 13:35, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
It's different, but if there's going to be a policy change on naming and negative-boosting AI content, we should be clear whether that also applies to AI upscaling or whether it doesn't apply to it at all. Some users already (very understandably) tick "I generated this work using an artificial intelligence tool" when uploading an AI-upscaled image, causing it to be incorrectly filed as {{PD-algorithm}} with no human authorship. Belbury (talk) 14:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think when this is checked the Upload Wizard should show another checkbox about whether img2img (an input image) was used or whether upscaling was used. If the former is checked, the user should enter some url to the input image(s). If the latter, it would add the template for AI upscaled image. Prototyperspective (talk) 14:21, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support further development - I think that the potential for abusing AI is something we have to address, but I am going to kindly ask that the details of the proposal should be developed further. Therefore, I support further development of this proposal into a draft policy or something like that. --Minoa (talk) 10:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Upload wizards capacity
I note in this AI discussion that the upload wizard asks the question of is it ai generated, so its possible that appending to file names or adding a template to identify AI generated media could be relatively easy to do automatically at upload. with a high degreee of consistance Gnangarra01:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
{{PD-algorithm}} is already added to any upload where this box is ticked, in addition to the licence template specified by the uploader.
It's worth remembering that some users tick this box in error, fairly regularly. Any additional effects of ticking it will require additional steps of cleanup in that minority of cases. Belbury (talk) 13:46, 19 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
@DarwIn I already relayed the idea of adding automatically a template, if I remember correctly something is already added. Anyway, if there is community consensus to add a(nother) specific template, I can relay this too and discuss it with the team. It's going to take some time anyway. Sannita (WMF) (talk) 13:47, 19 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Trade: The problem with {{PD-algorithm}} is that it's also used on images that have been modified by AI, not generated that way. Really there should be two separate templates depending on if the image is AI generated or just modified by AI. {{PD-algorithm}} doesn't really make sense in the later instance anyway. --Adamant1 (talk) 18:25, 2 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 23 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion
The tools for creating and displaying High Dynamic Range (HDR) images are starting to mature. HDR displays can render much brighter highlights than before, which leads to a big qualitative improvement in an image. Software for HDR production, and web-browser support, are becoming wide-spread. (Note that this is distinct from the tone-mapped HDR images you may have seen for the past decade or so.)
My test results are at Category:HDR gain-mapped images. Both images survived the process of uploading and rendering previews. HDR metadata was stripped from preview images, but preserved in the original uploads. If you have a newish HDR screen and a compliant web browser, the originals of this house and this church will appear brighter than usual. The effect on the house is subtle, limited to where sunlight hits white paint. The effect on the church is more dramatic: the windows should appear much brighter than the rest of the interior.
Most users of Commons images will see one of the smaller standard files, so for now the benefits of publishing this sort of content are limited. Are there any downsides to publishing it on Commons?
This post isn't marked as a proposal, because hosting these images on Commons works already. At a later date, when the standards are settled and the hardware is widely available, it would be nice to preserve HDR metadata in the generated preview images. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Semiautonomous (talk • contribs) 23:51, 23 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
September 26
How to change the text in a speedy deletion (GA1)?
Latest comment: 6 days ago8 comments3 people in discussion
It might be because the text hasn't been translated into other languages yet. It looks like the last update to other pages besides English was in May. That's the only thing I can think of though. --Adamant1 (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
@JopkeB: that text is added by the admin who removed it. Sometimes they'll copy-paste the text you provided as the deletion reason and sometimes they put something else there. ReneeWrites (talk) 16:30, 9 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Wikidata infobox forcing Wikidata based DEFAULTSORT
Latest comment: 4 days ago22 comments8 people in discussion
The {{Wikidata Infobox}} template seems to impose an (anglosaxonic?) DEFAULTSORT ordering on categories of people based on Wikidata, without broad discussion with the community and completely messing up a number of categories. Example: Category:Male politicians of São Paulo, try to find Category:Professor Fernando there, even if you know his real full name. It's impossible. Not only he is not know by his full name, and we are expecting an A-Z order of category names, but even if you happen to know his full name, someone added a surname on Wikidata that doesn't even exist in Portuguese. Shouldn't this Wikidata DEFAULTSORT imposition be removed or at least "opt-in" for that template? Pinging @Mike Peel: , who develops the tool.DarwinAhoy!14:16, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Pinging @Animalparty: who also noticed this problem some years ago. This situation seems to be lingering here for long, I wonder why it hasn't been fixed yet with a simple opt-in policy for that automatic Wikidata based DEFAULTSORT ordering, instead of forcing it everywhere and causing a mess.--DarwinAhoy!14:36, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
You can just add defaultsort and the bot then de-activates the infobox based sorting. That the default is English comes from category names being in English. ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 14:51, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yes, it was incorrectly set up in Wikidata, that's why it was barely findable in that system. Now that I fixed it adding his surname Pieri he is impossible to find there, unless you know that rather obscure information. And please stop picking singular cases among the almost 100 which are there, obviously some of them would be correct, while many others will not. That one you brought now has the sorting key "Pires", so it's not even an appropiate example as it's not using that automated DEFAULTSORT. DEFAULTSORT key is the name the person is generally known for, in that case "Pires do Rio". There's no general rule related to using given names, surnames or pseudonyms for teh defaultsort. DarwinAhoy!15:53, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
If there is no rule, it never should have been implemented by default, instead of bringing this additional burden to the community here. 🙄 DarwinAhoy!17:12, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Fun fact: the infobox is designed in such a way that it can be replaced by a new system when that becomes necessary - e.g., if infoboxes could be built into MediaWiki, or we migrate away from the category structure, since it's just a way of displaying the relevant information from Wikidata. With this issue, it's been great to see the discussion here, it seems no change is needed for now. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:15, 12 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I've had a lot of issues with DEFAULTSORT myself. It really shouldn't be the default, but then that would kind of defeat the purpose of the whole thing. So maybe it should just be axed? There's no reason people can't, or shouldn't, sort categories whatever way they want to without it being imposed on them through a template though. --Adamant1 (talk) 20:47, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
If adding the DEFAULTSORT template manually overrides the Infobox's DEFAULTSORT, I don't really see what the issue is. Most casual or novice editors won't think to add the template themselves (and even experienced editors sometimes forget to, i.e. me). In the vast majority of cases it does its job correctly and the few instances where it didn't it can be fixed manually. The alternative is having to add it manually to all categories. ReneeWrites (talk) 09:28, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
It seems to me entirely natural that the Wikidata rule that, given the right data, is correct well upwards of 95% of the time (98% would not surprise me), is used by default. Just so long as we can override, which we can, that's fine. - Jmabel ! talk09:42, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 days ago15 comments8 people in discussion
Sinigh and I disagree about dashes in category names, especially for dates. I favor the ISO/IEC 646 character known as the hyphen-minus. He favors "–" (which I copy-pasted here, I'm not certain of the code point and I'm headed out the door in about 2 minutes). Our discussion so far can be found at https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sinigh&oldid=934116270. Probably further discussion should continue here, not there. Other opinions sought, because we each have a decent rationale, but are unlikely to convince the other. - Jmabel ! talk06:00, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
En dash indicates a range, so 1800–1885 would be correct. This is as far as I can tell the norm on Commons for both category and file names. The universal hyphen/minus sign is used in category names that don't indicate a date range, see for example every entry here: Category:Days by day. ReneeWrites (talk) 06:31, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Category names should use hyphen/minus sign, not en/em dashes. Per Commons:Categories#Category names policy "Basic English characters (ISO/IEC 646) are preferred over national variants or extension character sets (for instance, 'straight' apostrophes over 'curly'), where reasonable." Category names should be something that can normally be typed with a keyboard and should not use extension characters where there is no need. Hyphen is perfectly understandable range sign. MKFI (talk) 06:37, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
The policy says "where reasonable", which affords flexibility, and its use for ranges is not only completely reasonable but also grammatically correct. The en dash serves a specific purpose that is universally recognized and does not introduce ambiguity, which is why most English-language style guides will call for the en dash to be used in this way. That it can't be found on most keyboards seems to be the only real argument against it, and I find it completely unconvincing. ReneeWrites (talk) 09:25, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I agree, especially since it's very common to use Commons:HotCat for categorizing, so the optimal solution is "Title with en dash" and "Category redirect with hyphen". I appreciate that it is somewhat cumbersome to input en dashes, but they are typographically and semantically correct and while HotCat or similar tools are certainly not mandatory, they can easily resolve the issue for those who really care. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯09:34, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I just wish to point out that I believe typeability is generally a valid concern, so I don't take issue with the basic premise of the discussion. But I only agree to the extent that I'm certain this could have been a real problem. My main objection, however, is that it seems very unlikely that the range dash (or hyphen) will ever be typed. To clarify, the original examples were Category:Hendrik Koolwijk (1800–1885) and Category:Iraqi Army in the Gulf War (1990–1991), which made me wonder: When is anyone ever going to type full category titles like those? And if they were to, when would they actually have to?
If typeability is indeed relevant here, I don't see why it is only considered important when it comes to the dash, while diacritics and language-specific characters derived from the Latin alphabet are preferred. Don't they, more often than not, cause an arguably worse version of same perceived problem?
"Title with en dash" and "Category redirect with hyphen" sounds like good strategy, and hopefully it's also an acceptable compromise. From that point of view, it's actually quite convenient that categories with range hyphens often already exist.
I hope this will be accepted as a compromise too. I know Commons isn't Wikipedia and we do our own thing here, but I do find it useful to look at how things are done on Wikipedia when an issue like this crops up (one that's not Commons-specific, I mean) on how they've dealt with it, and "Title with en dash, redirect with hyphen" is the compromise they settled on as well. ReneeWrites (talk) 10:12, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
If I understand it correctly the short summary of what this is about is whether the - or – character should be used. If there is some decision either way I think this should be in some guidance page where it's also clarified where each character is to be used as well as a bot/script that automatically moves categories accordingly. Additionally, it would be best if not needed that a technical change is implemented that makes HotCat autocompletes with – show up when using the more common minus - character. This is a broad subject and also affects for example Wikipedia lists which sometimes intermingle both. If there is a code issue or proposal about the autocompletes showing up, please link it here. Prototyperspective (talk) 11:57, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Agreed on documentation and to be clear, HotCat will correct/autocomplete any category redirect, either those that use standard MediaWiki syntax (i.e. "#redirect[[:Category:Foo]]") or by using {{Catredirect}}. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯12:07, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
To clarify: I meant that it should show the autocomplete without requiring there to be a redirect with the same name but a different hyphen character. E.g. always whenever there is a – between numbers show this cat in the autocompletes even if the user entered a minus - despite of there not being a redirect. Maybe it's not really needed because that character usually comes only near the end of a cat title, this would be needed if sometimes this is near the start of a cat title. Prototyperspective (talk) 12:13, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
That would still be a brilliant addition, though. Would it even be possible to automatically redirect searches whenever someone (understandably) types a hyphen where the dash goes? I mean, sort of like the way searches aren't case sensitive, could they also not be hyphen/dash sensitive? Only when needed, of course, i.e. if there actually is a category with a dash where the person types a hyphen. Sinigh (talk) 13:34, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
It is possible, the question is how difficult it would be and what the best way to implement it would be. In any case, it probably needs a code issue for HotCat. Prototyperspective (talk) 14:11, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thats the best solution, the hyphen. Juts because Wikipedia has a preference for en dash) does not need to apply to us. I keep on saying we're a databank, names of cats should be as simple as possible and contain easily available on the keyboard. No need for affectations. Broichmore (talk) 12:40, 12 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Wikipedia's preference is not and has never been the main argument here; ReneeWrites only told us how they solved it over there and pointed out that "we do our own thing here." As for the keyboard layout, everyone already knows that the hyphen is easier to type. That argument has been addressed in several ways, yet noone seems to have anything to say in response to those objections. Simply reiterating the original argument obviously isn't going to convince anyone. Sinigh (talk) 13:06, 12 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Uploading photos taken in a commercial establishment
Latest comment: 7 days ago11 comments5 people in discussion
I took these photos of an old Heidelberg printing press at a commercial establishment. Removed any identification of the location, but didn't ask for permission. I want to upload them as PD, but unsure of their copyright status.
I'm not an expert on this, but my assumption is that it's fine to post these. The focus of these images is the printing press, which isn't copyrighted, and the commercial establishment it's placed in would fall under de minimis as it's barely visible. I would not post the third picture however, and I would crop out the sign at the top of the first. You can use the information on that sign (by paraphrasing or summarizing) but I assume the text itself is copyrighted and can't be copied or posted in full. ReneeWrites (talk) 09:51, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Also as a non-expert, maybe you could be concerned that the text in some of these is copyright-able, so you may want to crop that out. Seems like a pretty small concern, but better safe than sorry. Edit conflict-y: I agree with Renee—Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯09:59, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for all the comments. I also noticed the first photo with some possible identification. But, I doubt that the establishment would object to the promotion. My concern is acceptability on the Commons. BTW, I already removed a lot of identifying information. As for location details, what does that mean? The 3rd photo with the 1985 date is meaningless. It's when the company folded.— Ineuw talk12:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I requested the Quarry query here so a big thanks to Matěj Suchánek who implemented it. (Collaboration like this makes everyone more productive and saves time as well as making each one's expertise/skills/knowledge more fruitful.)
In previous discussions about uncategorized categories I clarified multiple times that these categories are also missing categories or have issues but don't yet have a report where they show up. What I did not know at first is that this could be solved via a Quarry query and what the place to request such queries is.
Most of the categories on these reports need some work. So if you're interested in helping out please take a look, especially if you already have experience with cutting down the Special:UncategorizedCategories list. You can add /Page_1 to the two report links if you want to see only a small sample of the first 500 items.
Lots of work needed there. Probably, the list will not grow back as quickly as the entirely uncategorized cats in UncategorizedCategories.
Thanks for putting this together! Any chance it could be formatted as a table instead of a comma-separated list? That'd make it a lot easier to work with. Omphalographer (talk) 22:28, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I thought so at first but then found it would be easier if one was able to see just as many items as possible in one view. One can see lots of links without having to scroll around. The link color changes once you visited the pages so e.g. row-numbers don't add anything. A table would be useful if there were more columns....maybe at some point there could be additional columns that show e.g. whether a category only has 1 file (or the count of files) but I currently don't see how that would be useful (if anything that could go into a separate report page). Is there any reason you'd prefer a table? It wouldn't be difficult to convert it to a table but I don't see what advantage it would have. Maybe you mean a table with multiple columns but only these wikilinks instead of a one-column table but then I wouldn't see the difference to the current format. One thing that may be useful is a page with raw URLs so one can open many of these in new tabs at once (select and drag onto a tab or right click->open in new tabs). Prototyperspective (talk) 22:36, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
There's one way a table format may be useful: making it possible to sort these alphabetically. However, the query could be changed to order the categories that way without losing the advantages of the comma separated list which I think only needs ORDER BY page_title DESC in the query (probably will be done before the next report update). Prototyperspective (talk) 22:43, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I, for one, find the current format very off-putting (but thank you for doing this at all).
It's OK if we have a format that doesn't end up showing everything in one view while there is so much to show. People will whittle down the list pretty quickly, in my experience, and it can be re-run periodically. It doesn't matter if not everything is in front of people at once while the content is still voluminous; it's a lot more important for this sort of task that what is in front of us is sane to skim. - Jmabel ! talk20:51, 9 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Alright the question is simply which other format would be better and why? Currently this is only one link and doesn't even other data for other columns and people often dislike things at first they are not familiar with. Prototyperspective (talk) 21:48, 9 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
If a list format would be better the page would be very large and I don't know if it causes other problems but one would have to scroll a lot. Without alphabetic sorting, a list format makes less sense. But I guess once the new version is sorted it could be easier to skim or skip over similarly named items if it was in a list format. Maybe there could be multiple columns so the page isn't so large. Prototyperspective (talk) 21:58, 9 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
A wiki table (with one row for each category) would be easiest to work with. Even if the report itself isn't sorted, presenting it as a table will allow users to sort it themselves. Omphalographer (talk) 22:16, 9 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
The report has been updated now. It has the same sorting as before (no ORDER BY SQL added) but now has a table format so it can be sorted alphabetically by clicking on the column header. Moreover, empty categories have been split off from the report. Prototyperspective (talk) 12:45, 12 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Pretty hard to figure out any kind of pattern in that list. Maybe a simple word count helps. I used that when the "uncategorized" reports were longer. It allows to fix several similar ones at once. Sample wordcount (some "words" are years or other numbers): from 7899, Fire 7879, Sanborn 7877, Insurance 7877, Map 7876, County 7525, in 1170, North 829, Oklahoma 681, Texas 572, Rhine-Westphalia 546, California 546, New 537, Pennsylvania 513, Washington 492, Missouri 464, of 382, 1911 356, 1909 346, Carolina 332, 1912 328, 1910 324, Ohio 317, Jersey 317, Montana 296, 1914 287, 1913 282, Oregon 281, Indiana 272, Kansas 271, 1921 266, 1908 256, 1915 255, 1920 245, 1916 245, 1922 242, Georgia 241, 1905 235, Florida 232, Virginia 222, Maine 219, City 218, by 212, South 207, 1904 203, 1917 194, 1901 190, 1900 180, Massachusetts 178, West 176, 1919 175. ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 23:46, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. At the next update it will be sorted alphabetically, maybe that helps. I noticed most of the Rhine-Westphalia cats do have categories but they have been set by a template by the first and only edit by XrayBot and I don't know how to best make such categories disappear from the report – one example for that would be to have a query show all cats included there that have a template set (which usually sets cats) so all of them could get a nulledit to remove all which do have a category from the report (that's just an example, I don't think that's readily possible). Prototyperspective (talk) 09:23, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Updated the reports. Down to 1965 now after Sanborn maps cats (thanks Enhancing999 for that) as well as empty cats (separate report) have been taken care of. The one with only infobox categories now has 4364 items (but so far didn't have the empty cats get deleted).
I uploaded the files with the intent of creating the most best collection of sanborn maps anywhere.
Not only did i fail to find a single person with the slightest enthusiasm for it, but i encountered a number of obstacles. At first i tried to slalom around and through the stupidity, but it was going to be a long process of grinding through ever more peanut brainery, so i started a vote to give me the necessary authority to shove it aside and to flip the switch on the bureaucrats (of which i conversed with a total of at least 5, who were all not talking to each other) in one stroke of genius. I lost the vote, so i pulled the plug on the enterprise. As a bonus, i witnessed a bunch of people who most be on probation or something, manually rename 20000 files, because nobody writes scripts for them, and i learned that commons cannot reliably rename files and the ticket is 10 or so years old (i think there was more than one ticket in that general problem domain). It is not possible to work on a data-mega-center on complex issues if the number of people with a problem solving attitude hovers around 0%. Nowakki (talk) 18:05, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Nowakki: Hi, Your intend is good, but your working process isn't. 1. You shouldn't count on anyone else to fix problems you created with your uploads. 2. You should have start slowly, only uploading a few dozens or hundreds of files, and check if everything was OK before uploading gazillions of files, where the problems have overcome you. Yann (talk) 20:19, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Nobody cared about sanborn maps until they suddenly started caring in the middle of the upload campaign. Even after the debate was over involving more than 5 people, at no point did a person appear who was in charge of these maps. I can compensate for lack of leadership with initiative, but if you don't want my sanborn power-user setup, then you don't want it. Nowakki (talk) 20:43, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I run into similar issues myself sometimes where people criticize and attack me for doing things that are supposedly controversial. But it's almost impossible to know what is or isn't going to trigger any of the over sensitive snowflakes on here or otherwise cause a controversy until after the fact. There's really no way what-so-ever to know before doing something what random nonsense is going to be an issue or otherwise cause problems though. And good luck getting anyone who throws a fit about it to actually help you fix the issue. Which 100% they should if their the ones making an issue out of it to begin with. More on topic, is there a reason that a bot can't just add parent categories to the ones for Sanborn maps? --Adamant1 (talk) 23:35, 9 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Creating the categories is easy. Just got to find somebody to devise a scheme and write a bot.
@Adamant1: I spent like two weeks or so writing code for this. I don't really need anyone to do anything, except give me mass rename privilege for a selected number of files.
Isn't there a way to override borderline imbecile snowflakes, who have the power to vote, with the help of specially trained overlords who act in the interest of progress being made? Nowakki (talk) 12:30, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think people who refused the privilege back then were using about as many brain cells as you just did when you imagined you knew how to be of help. Nowakki (talk) 13:35, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
You're quite condescending, even more than Adamant1 here once again. I prefer you do not upload these files versus uploading them the way you did. Apply again with the info why you need these permissions. Prototyperspective (talk) 13:45, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yeah well, I find your attitude towards Nowakki rather patronizing myself. I don't think it really helps to go off about how they shouldn't have uploaded the files to begin with at this point. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I'm sure your the one who's in the right here though just because your acting more agitated about it then I am.
More on topic, the files have already been uploaded. So the question is what to do about it now. I'm a little fuzzy on the original details, but assuming this mainly (or only) has to do with uncategorized categories then I don't see what renaming the files would have to do with it. Someone could use User:Nowakki/test3 as a starting point to create the categories through a bot edit. Then the file names could hopefully be fixed in the future, but that's tangential to creating the categories. Or I assume it is. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that though. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm not agitated at all and nowhere was I acting patronizingly or condescendingly towards Nowakki. I don't really care about this case at all. A user asked about it and I looked at the history page and pinged the respective user, then Nowakki said there's problems with renaming without any further details and I helpfully mentioned this can be done by requesting file-moving rights, that's all. Yes, the question is what to do about the files & cats now. The answer to your question of what file naming has to do it is that Nowakki wrote […] except give me mass rename privilege for a selected number of files. Prototyperspective (talk) 22:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think you were. We'll have to disagree though. But that's not all you said. You seem to have a real problem with being patronizing towards other users and then trying to weasel out of it by acting like everything you said was totally innocent and on topic when it wasn't. Regardless, I think the best way to deal with this is by doing a bot edit based on User:Nowakki/test3. But I have other things to do myself. So someone else is going to have to do it, but that would be my suggestion. I see you asked Nowakki to create a bot request. So at least we're in agreement about it. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:56, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Nowakki: Creating the categories is easy. Just got to find somebody to devise a scheme and write a bot. Could you please create a Bot work request with the details? and if you don't really need anyone to do anything, except give me mass rename privilege for a selected number of files could you please request these permissions? Thanks for your efforts so far. Prototyperspective (talk) 22:45, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
The Sanborn map collection needs to be fixed properly. If you fix the categories you are hiding an indicator that it is broken, which will make the real problem worse. I would therefore advise you to not touch it and move on.
You can copy+paste the above to where to redlink cats problem is being discussed, so they know that a fix is nontrivial and it will be fixed together with the underlying problem eventually. Nowakki (talk) 23:19, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
What about just up-merging the files to more general ones and deleting the categories their currently in outright then? Or conversely the files could just be mass nominated for deletion. That sounds like a less then optimal solution though lol. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:26, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
If you delete them now they might have to be downloaded again when somebody wants them. Therefore that should be not an option.
I'm a little hazy on the details, but from what I remember your proposal to rename the files was rejected. So that's clearly not an option. I don't think just leaving the categories as is really helps either. So what's your suggestion to deal with the issue aside from leaving the red links or renaming the files when that already failed? --Adamant1 (talk) 23:46, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I only state my original proposition. You can proceed in any way you see fit. I would advise you to develop a scheme that make the sanborn map collection awesome and then implement it. Nowakki (talk) 23:50, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
The above discussion has gotten terribly convoluted. If there are things that one or more of the participants wish to see happen, could you please each state those, without a bunch of cross-talk? - Jmabel ! talk07:45, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think this short comment sums it up. I do not understand Nowakki's reply to it. It's unclear what is meant with needs to be fixed properly. And it's also unclear what is meant with I would advise you to develop a scheme that […]. If somebody understands what exactly needs to be done or is proposed please explain it briefly and if not I repeat my question for Nowakki to create a request with the explanation/details. Prototyperspective (talk) 09:37, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
You are right, the underlying issue has never been properly explained to you.
The filenames for map files prior to 1900 are bad. They were chosen by a not so brilliant coworker who came ahead of me.
The map files after 1900 have a better naming scheme.
If you think this is a cosmetic change, click on one of the files named "ind". The plate number and LOC sequential IDs don't match for the old scheme. It's broken. Suppose you were to run the index through OCR. With the old scheme, you need a separate database to map plate numbers to files. Unsustainable stupidity.
Alright, thanks for explaining! That was the missing info. If you requested file-mover permissions and it was declined that doesn't mean you can't apply again. I think it the permissions will be granted if you provide them with this info. If not, you could also check what else is required to get these permissions but I don't see why the request would fail so please request the file-moving permissions, afterwards you could make use of the mass rename tool and implement the filetitle changes. Prototyperspective (talk) 15:40, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
If I wanted file mover privileges I could have requested them at any time since January. I just came here to talk about stupidity. Nowakki (talk) 17:06, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Agree. Not sure what the user is up to now when writing sth like that. What about throwing all of these Sanborn cats into a flat category (for now)? Also maybe they should be separated from the report (if they are in a flat category they wouldn't show up in it anymore anyway). Prototyperspective (talk) 12:42, 12 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Exhibition at the M.H. de Young Memorial Museum, 1932
Latest comment: 6 days ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi, I am looking for the catalog of the exhibition at the M.H. de Young Memorial Museum, San Francisco, 1932, by the Group f/64, or at least a list of artworks. Any idea? In newspaper reports? This would help finding copyright status for these notable pictures. Thanks, Yann (talk) 14:03, 8 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 18 hours ago6 comments5 people in discussion
Hi wikipedians!
I am creating an open-source app for browsing OpenStreetMap – the OsmAPP. You can access it at osmapp.org. One of main features of OsmAPP is showing a side panel with information on any clicked map feature or POI. This includes showing photos from many available sources, which is mainly from connected Wikipedia articles, Wikidata entries and directly linked Wikimedia Commons images (see eg. this page).
This connection naturally led me to think about making upload possible as well, as this could benefit both projects – supply Commons with real world images under correct license, and add photos to various map features in OpenStreetMap.
After a year of effort (the wiki api is quite challenging 😃), I have the upload script ready. I asked for the permission to make a test run, which succeeded (OsmappBot contributions). Now I would like to ask broader public about your opinions, and ideas how to make the most of it for Wikimedia Commons.
Regarding Freedom of panorama – the Upload dialog would warn users if the specifc country forbids public photos of buildings etc. I can't add the specific {{FoP-country}} templates programatically (that would need a AI object recongnition), but I will review uploaded images manually and add it if needed. OsmAPP doesn't have many users, I expect only handful of uploads per month. Mind that, this is not an import bot, it rather uploads images on behalf of logged in OSM users, any change I make to the bot will only affect future uploads.
Standard upload dialog
FoP in effect when uploading in countries from this list
Interesting. I suggest you create a video demonstrating its features and put it on YouTube and also upload it here. Please enable users to add one or several categories with autocomplete similar to the Upload Wizard on this site (maybe the HotCat script could be used for that). Prototyperspective (talk) 16:21, 9 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I would recommend rewriting Public photography is forbidden in this country. to Public photography is restricted in this country. as all but five countries with freedom of panorama provisions grant permission for some works but not others. For example, the United States has freedom of panorama for architecture but not sculpture. JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 19:20, 9 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Looks very interesting and promising! Thank you for the work! It would be a nice addition if login and upload with Wikimedia account would be possible. That would also relieve you from the responsibility at least for uploads done through that way. --Marsupium (talk) 06:42, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Prototyperspective – Thanks for the feedback. I think I could design a TextField with Commons category search. It will take some time though. Also good idea with the video. I will do it once I have the redesigned dialog ready :-)
@Marsupium – Thanks for the kind words. I think for Wikimedia users, I can provide a link to the official upload tool, there is already an option in OsmAPP to add wikimedia_commons photo in the Edit section of any feature, eg. here: https://osmapp.org/way/7645354/edit .. the upload dialog makes it only easier for OSM users to contribute to Commons. Zbytovsky (talk) 08:15, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 3 days ago4 comments3 people in discussion
Category:Minority schools came to my attention when User:Elkost added it as a parent of Category:Jewish schools and my immediate reaction was, "What about a cheder in Israel (where Jews are not a minority)? We had a bit of a discussion and both agree that this area of categorization needs more thought than it has had, and more than just he and I can bring to it. In particular (some of this per our discussion, some not):
@NeverDoING: as creator of Category:Minority schools, can you explain your intention and, in particular, the intended criteria for inclusion in this category?
Quoting myself, rather than try to word this again from scratch: There are also Japanese and Korean schools in the U.S., American schools in practically every major city of the world, French schools in Spain, Romania, and who knows where else, etc. I'm not sure how we should handle these all, but the emphasis on minority seems wrong to me. Also, there is some sort of distinction to be made between (for example) a Japanese school in the U.S. that focuses entirely on people of Japanese ancestry and one where non-Japanese might study aspects of language and culture as well. I don't think any of this has been well thought through. Plus "Jewish" especially raises the issue of religious vs. ethnic. For example, a cheder is a very different matter than a Jewish day school that teaches a broad curriculum. Analogously, but not a school: the 92nd Street Y in Manhattan is emphatically culturally Jewish, and equally emphatically secular.
HBCUs are very simple, because they are self-organized into an association.
I have no problem with the existence of any of these subcats. My issue is with the term "minority schools." Since you bring up Black Americans: would an African-American academy at the high-school level in Detroit (a city that is over 75% Black) be a "minority school"? And, again, why on a global basis are Jews and Armenians deems "minorities" (even though each has a country where they make up the majority) but Hungarians (the majority in Hungary, and an important minority in Romania, Slovakia, and elsewhere) are not? (All three are within about 20% of the same size populations.) - Jmabel ! talk12:51, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
My thoughts are that the term "Minority" is really poorly defined and that maybe "Ethnic schools" would be better and more precise, we can also use "Religious schools" where relevant Oxyman (talk) 03:59, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
October 10
Internet Archive attacked
Latest comment: 6 days ago5 comments4 people in discussion
Hi, I just learned that Internet Archive has been attacked, and suffered a security breach: [1]. :((( We rely a lot on IA for various reasons, and that's very sad. Yann (talk) 10:36, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yes, earthquakes in San Francisco area, a concern that I have expressed several times here, is only one of the risks that may affect Internet Archive. Fortunately, as Prototyperspective said, it seems that contents weren't affected, but if, as their only publicly available information says, they only have 2 production copies of each file (and no proper backups), some attack could possibly delete information completely (Archive stores so many files that a complete destruction due to an attack seems highly unlikely, though). I hope this event will help them to greatly improve their infrastructure, and to get the money they would need for that. I hope that the recent Archive's partnership with Google also helps with this. MGeog2022 (talk) 20:04, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
By the way, while WMF has much better resources and infrastructure than Internet Archive, absolute security does not exist, so this is a reminder that Commons media dumps are a real need (as well as true offline backups ready to be restored, both for media and for text content in all WMF wikis). MGeog2022 (talk) 20:26, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Category slideshows
Latest comment: 6 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Does anyone understand why the UI to start a category slideshow uses such "mystery meat" navigation? Nothing obvious about the symbol at all. - Jmabel ! talk14:32, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
New report: self-categorized categories
Latest comment: 4 days ago18 comments2 people in discussion
When using the deepcategory search operator it should detect self-categorization so it doesn't break. Until that is implemented, fixing self-categorization is especially needed (e.g. to enable it to always show results phab:T376440) but it's also a general problem if categories contain themselves (in these cases directly).
The report was empty / out of date for a long time but now MZMcBride (talk·contribs) updated it – thanks for that!
I worked on it until Ludwig_August_Fallon (default sorting not alphabetic sorting) except for year_in_India cats. Fixing these problems is usually quite simple – removing that category or replacing a template that sets the category with the categories. Sometimes one also needs to add other categories such as some taxonomic category. I requested on the talk page that it (a separate page / report) also shows categories that include themselves somewhere in their subcategories.
If this is done and with the two other reports announced above there would then be reports for nearly all issues with categories. After these have been solved to some extent what would remain are the issue of categories with just 1 file (debatable whether that's preferable over just categorizing the file like the cat), empty categories (see Quarry:query/7200 and many/most of them should be deleted), and mismatches between WMC and WP (mainly ENWP) categories which often means some cats of the WMC cat are missing and just need to be synced with WP.
--Prototyperspective (talk) 14:59, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
That would be great. It would only fail for categories that have themselves set via templates. If you neither create such a bot nor request one, I'll sooner or later propose one at Commons:Bots/Work requests. Some of these cats may benefit from human checking (because they lack cats) but that's not worth the time required and may get addressed via the mentioned category-mismatch detection that could implemented at some point. Prototyperspective (talk) 16:36, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks! I don't know what the query for it is and hope MZMcBride updates it again at some point. Categories that contain themselves in some subcategory are just as much of a problem (e.g. cause deepcategory to fail and are logically contradictory) but aren't included there. If somebody is interested in these or can adjust the query (which is it?) to also scan several layers of subcategories, please see the report's talk page. When it comes to templates I suggest people who added the template are pinged or it's asked about at the template's talk page – often the best solution is to comment out or remove the template and replace it with the categories that it automatically sets except of the self-categorizing cat. Prototyperspective (talk) 09:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Not sure, maybe the templates can be fixed to do it more selectively.
Thanks for the link, I've seen it before but don't know where I found the link and forgot about it – however, that's just some code without any info on how to run it. Can it be run in the Quarry tool? Loops can be avoided by putting all the scanned categories in an array and the checking whether the category currently checked is in that array. If so, it would not look into subcategories of that category and show it as one of the categories that contain themselves. This way it would scan layer by layer and the number of layers to scan could be increased over time. Prototyperspective (talk) 12:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
FastCCI's cat path exampleGreat! So this is already solved? Could you please put that in a separate query instead of just in some revision of a query about something else and then put that in some report?
Putting it in a report on Commons is also useful for people here to find that query, not just for accessing the results and working on fixing the issues. When it comes to fixing the issues what is still needed is showing a categorization path per each item showing why the second category is located somewhere in the former like in the attached image. Do you think it would be possible to add a column for that in the query? It would also be relevant to this request for a new tool/gadget and this issue for petscan. Such is one of the most needed functionalities to improve categorizations and petscan often shows files that do not belong into categories without a way to find out why (examples in the two links). Prototyperspective (talk) 13:17, 12 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
If you won't forget about it and keep track of all the relevant info and the query then that may be a good idea. I don't think there's an issue with putting it into a report if nobody finds it anyway. A categorization path is also needed for e.g. the two other things I linked and maybe that could be used there. Didn't you say the number of self-categorizations is way down now and the remaining ones are due to templates? In that case it seems like the problem is already solved: making template creators/writers aware of the problem on the template talk pages so the problem gets fixed at the template and/or simply commenting out the template on the respective pages to replace them with the other cats. If you mean the 7500 cats that contain themselves somewhere, I don't think a bot could correct [many of] these self-categorizations – it does need quick human checking and that is best done by enabling users to only need very little time per correction (quick succession editing) including displaying the necessary info of the categorization path. The optimal solution would be displaying the categorization path with each cat having an x button to remove the cat that caused the self-categorization but requiring the user to click the cat and remove it with a second click is also good. Prototyperspective (talk) 17:21, 12 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
They are all pairs as the sample above (Category:(26)_Proserpina_symbols + Category:Persephone_symbols). Longer chains are not include (e.g. grandparent = child).
Oh too bad, I thought I checked some and it was not a direct self-categorization and also I don't understand then why the query shows so many results while the report only has a few hundred or so or 151 remaining ones. In that case maybe it does need a report with two columns with a button to directly remove the problematic cat on either cat directly, maybe this can can be done with some specific URL and the URL could be attached next to each wikilink. No other idea, e.g. I think even for your example case where it's quite obvious to a human it would be difficult to a bot (one that has some chance of getting developed). Prototyperspective (talk) 17:50, 12 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
The 150 are just the ones that are self-categorizations (1 category involved, as your report above).
This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Prototyperspective (talk) 15:04, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
Categories vs subjects
Latest comment: 5 days ago7 comments4 people in discussion
In the Upload Wizard there are separate fields for "Main subjects visible in this work" and "Category" (which possibly should read "Categories"). I wonder why it is necessary to have both. In what case would (or could) a "main subject visible" NOT be a category? ITookSomePhotos (talk) 17:59, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Agree, it's duplication of work. I think categories should automatically sync to structured data if SD is to be used at all. However, note that a file may not depict some things that are in a category...however people also add depict statements for such things (e.g. when a video is only about sth but not depicting it) and there's also categories that are not about the contents in terms of what is being depicted such as Category:Videos without audio. Prototyperspective (talk) 18:50, 10 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
It makes sense and I don't want to argue against it...I'd just like to leave a note about four things to consider:
people often set SD for depicts: the building (using that example)
when it has some depicts statements set the main thing depicted (door handle using that example) may not be in the SD while it's in the cats if cats are set in ca >95% of cases
the category could (often should) have a dedicated subcategory for pictures like that
the depicted thing can be inferred from the combination of categories set (e.g. close-up photos of door handles + building xy + other cats = pic depicts door handle of that building)
Note that I deliberately asked how a "main subject visible" would or could not be a category, and not the other way around. In the case of the door handle, still, my point holds. We would have to specify "door handle" twice, once as a category, and once as a depicted object, apparently redundantly. ITookSomePhotos (talk) 17:25, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Though I guess the way things are set up now, if we only specified the categories, "door handle" and "building X", and no separate "subjects visible" information, then we would lose the information that "building X" is NOT visible. If this is important to capture, then I suppose in an ideal world we would specify visible objects once, and then have another field for "other categories". ITookSomePhotos (talk) 17:54, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Cities in Belgium by year
Latest comment: 6 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I suggest you use another plant identification tool instead of asking humans here. These tools could also be useful for suggesting categories and I think several work better for plants than Google Lens but I don't know if there's any that is free software. Prototyperspective (talk) 12:48, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 days ago4 comments2 people in discussion
i believe we have enough images that represents what QR codes looks like. and also there is many more redundant files. right now, 358 files. i believe we should do something about this. Category:Raster quick response codes. we should make DR'd these redundant files. and, i didnt check, also, i believe there is plenty of advertisements out there. modern_primatඞඞඞ ----TALK17:58, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support. I'll go through these and open a batch DR later today. FWIW, you can decode most of these by pasting the image URL into Zxing - much easier than scanning them off the computer screen. Omphalographer (talk) 19:03, 11 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 4 days ago4 comments3 people in discussion
As it is becoming evident that some submitted files do infringe on sculptural copyrights due to lack of FoP in their countries (I nominated some myself), is it appropriate to create tracking categories of deletion requests concerning WLM-2024-related files?
In this way, organizers may be able to reassess their rules for future competitions and some may even try the stepping stones to reform their copyright laws. We may no longer be able to categorize those of past contests due to the deleted files not being visible to non-sysops like me.
@Adamant1@GPSLeo on a second thought, I think it won't help much. With little to no initiatives of various Wikimedia chapters and local user groups as well as unwillingness of several countries to permit full exposure of their public spaces in commercially-available media, I don't think we can expect improvements in copyright laws very soon. Even the U.S. architectural FoP is not immune to criticism, albeit from a small sector composed of some architects and lawyers who are critical of the 1990 AWCPA as having deprived architects the right to control the U.S. public's images of U.S. buildings. Expect some "unsurprising surprises" on FoP statuses of some countries. Withdrawing my categorization proposal, to reduce some stress on my part. JWilz12345(Talk|Contrib's.)06:24, 12 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Organisation logo to Commons
Latest comment: 4 days ago5 comments2 people in discussion
I uploaded a logo and it is stored locally on the English Wikipedia (en:File:Linpra logo.png).
I'd like to upload it to Commons with the same rationale as logos from Volvo, Ikea, Saab and others.
How do I upload it to Commons?
I don't see any documentation of the threshold of originality for Lithuania. Does someone have something? For the U.S. it should be OK. - Jmabel ! talk16:20, 12 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
There is no Freedom of Panorama for sounds Does somebody have info on that? Videos of live music would be useful often and also there are several/many videos of such which if they aren't free would need to be deleted (example). I am trying to find wich music band was playing Use the Wayback Machine when it's functional – if they don't have the relevant page archived and other archival websites like archive.today and the Google Cache don't have neither and Web search engines don't show anything for relevant searches then you're probably out of luck but I don't see any problem with that since it's unlikely to be a very notable band where a photo is much needed and I think most such bands already have some photos on WMC. Prototyperspective (talk) 12:22, 12 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
A band playing not permanent and therefore definitely not covered by FOP in most regions as FOP requires works to be permanent in public space. For cases like bell installations it could be a difficult question. GPSLeo (talk) 11:22, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for the info. I wonder about the music but I think it can't be copyrighted if it's played in a public space. Nevertheless, I don't know if a concert etc is a public space in regards to whether videos of the live music can be uploaded under CCBY. Prototyperspective (talk) 11:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Change in editing behaviour for keyboard shortcuts?
Latest comment: 1 day ago3 comments1 person in discussion
I've probably missed an announcement, but now if I try to copy something with command-C I get ''Italic text'', and if I paste something with command-V I get <sup>Superscript text</sup> - any pointers to where this changed, and how to disable it? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:10, 12 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
With more investigation, this seems to be related to my keyboard overlay - if I switch to querty, it works fine, but with dvorak, it isn't. Weird. (I becomes C and > becomes V with dvorak, so the keyboard shortcuts then make sense...) Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 16:44, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Seems plausible. The linked web site has a footer which states Музыка, тексты и изображения сайта распространяются по лицензии Creative Commons BY-SA 4.0. Next question is whether it's in scope; I can't help but notice that the artist doesn't have an article on any Wikipedia. Omphalographer (talk) 01:53, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
The video ends with the arrival in a small train stop. A have been checking the stations in the en:Kyūdai Main Line article, but not finding it. Nearly all the bigger stations have a footbridge and this one does not. There is a Japanese text, but I am not certain that this the station name. Is there a handy way the extract an image from a video? I can do a print screen, but I am not certain this is the best way. (I am not used to working with videos). Is there an Japanese/English speaking forum, where I can ask the question? Unfortunatly OpenRailmap does not have an translate function. Smiley.toerist (talk) 08:29, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Note: It will be lower resolution than the video if one does not click Original file first as described in the cat. This may be irrelevant in many cases but when uploading stills to WMC the stills shouldn't be lower-quality than the video. Prototyperspective (talk) 11:10, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
If you like specifying train stations, this video (among several others) shows many of them. Maybe some of the places and villages shown could also be identified but I wonder about which use-cases that has, at least in the current form. Prototyperspective (talk) 20:27, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I used the last modified time parameter of the original MP4 file, to add the correct time. I have added the start location. Is there a format to indicate the start and end location of a video? I have experimented with timetext in Dutch. Can I add the English text or is a completely different timetext necessary?Smiley.toerist (talk) 11:42, 14 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
It does not work for the start position. You have to use a predifined location (item), not dump location coordinates. The destination point use gives a warning. Smiley.toerist (talk) 12:37, 14 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 day ago8 comments4 people in discussion
Is there any Help/Commons page about empty categories? I'd like to ask if these are noindexed and if not propose that they are made noindexed. Moreover, at some point it may be good to discuss what to do about empty categories created over e.g. 2 years ago of which there seem to be many. --Prototyperspective (talk) 11:14, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
The web inspector should be able to tell you if a page has the noindex command in the head of the page. I personally think noindex is overused and breaks the way google updates their indexes to a degree that makes if very difficult to change the page back to being indexed, and as such should not be used on pages that frequently change and where people have an expectation that the page should show up in indexes quickly once the no index command is removed. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:26, 14 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Okay but then there is a problem with the many empty categories. I doubt that is a reason why Google (and DuckDuckGo) barely index category pages (and media) of WMC but I think we should leave them as little plausible reason as possible. Prototyperspective (talk) 12:34, 14 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I just found many categories with only infobox categories are either:
What is best done there? Should anything be done about the former? If not I wonder why there are only so few of these – do they maybe miss a cat for disambiguation pages? Is something needed or existing that adds an image automatically to a category if it's added to the corresponding Wikidata item if it's not in any subcat of it? I don't know how these images were added to the items, if people add them directly to the items via upload, maybe that tool needs a change so it's also categorized. Prototyperspective (talk) 15:10, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Disambiguation categories are fine. An infobox may be a bit excessive there, but the interwiki link from Wikidata is important, so it is linked to parallel disambiguations in other WMF wikis.
For the ones with an image in the Infobox, my first thought is, "So why the hell isn't this image (and possibly others) in the category?" I'd probably see whether the category can be filled in with some content. And given appropriate parent categories. - Jmabel ! talk19:18, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Some of the empty cats with images in infobox have the image in some equivalent category, for example in the same cat that is not misspelled. Other than that, it could be a good subject for discussion whether it would be better to have the image added to create a 1-image-category (over-categorization?) or just leave the image in the cats it's in and delete the empty cat for the time being (or if it varies when to do what). Here a separate report may also be best but one could also leave the main report unchanged and check the remaining bluelinked empty categories so people can see what's best case by case. Prototyperspective (talk) 20:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
What to do with advertising in the description?
Latest comment: 2 days ago4 comments3 people in discussion
With this usable photo, the description is pure advertising. This is something I come across more often. What to do? Leave it as it is or reduce the text in this case to “Machu Picchu”? Wouter (talk) 17:43, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
This is common in YouTube video descriptions which are abused for all kinds of spam and junk as well. Ranked:
A meaningful description "Tourists posing on steps at Machu Picchu in 2023"
Latest comment: 2 days ago5 comments5 people in discussion
I often do photo editing on low-quality images and upload better versions (corrected exposure, etc). For example, File:Admiralty Centre Tower 2 (adjusted).jpg Is there an easy way to do this? Its a pain to have to manually go through the upload wizard, copy over the original author, license, description, generate a new file name with "(adjusted)" stuffed into the original name, etc. It seems like some bit of javascript could do all of this with one click. Does such a thing exist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by RoySmith (talk • contribs) 19:52, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Others might be able to point you to a better tool, but the Basic Upload Form in Special:Upload might be useful for you. You can copy the entire description from one file and paste it here. This should almost definitely save you some clicks. Rubýñ(Scold)20:25, 13 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
While these candidates have been ranked through the vote, they still need to be appointed to the Board of Trustees. They need to pass a successful background check and meet the qualifications outlined in the Bylaws. New trustees will be appointed at the next Board meeting in December 2024.
Copyright question regarding document from "Memory of the People" (pamyat-naroda.ru)
Latest comment: 2 days ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi all,
I've uploaded a PDF document to Wikimedia Commons that I downloaded from the Russian "Memory of the People" website (pamyat-naroda.ru). This document details the World War II service record of my grandfather, Georgiy Pavlovich Osipov, and includes information about his unit, awards, and activities during the Siege of Leningrad.
The "Memory of the People" website states the following copyright information:
Правообладателем ИС «Память народа», включая входящие в ее состав программы для ЭВМ, электронные банки (базы) данных, включающие электронные копии архивных документов, является Российская Федерация в лице Министерства обороны Российской Федерации (далее – Правообладатель).
Собственниками архивных документов, электронные копии которых размещены в ИС «Память народа», является Российская Федерация (в части документов, предоставленных российскими государственными архивами, государственными органами и организациями), а также иностранные государственные архивы и иные организации, предоставившие электронные копии этих документов.
Правообладателями аудиовизуальных произведений, предоставленных Российским государственным архивом кинофотодокументов и размещенных на сайтах ИС «Память народа», являются авторы этих произведений.
Оператором сайтов ИС «Память народа» (далее – Оператор) является Министерство обороны Российской Федерации, либо уполномоченная им организация.
Все сервисы, а также информационный контент, предоставляемые сайтами ИС «Память народа», являются государственными информационными услугами, оказываемыми бесплатно.
Обязательным условием использования документов с сайта в изданиях, связанных с историей Великой Отечественной войны, является ссылка на сайт.
English Translation:
Legal Information
The copyright holder of the "Memory of the People" information system, including the computer programs, electronic data banks (databases) containing electronic copies of archival documents, is the Russian Federation, represented by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation (hereinafter referred to as the Copyright Holder).
The owners of the archival documents, electronic copies of which are posted in the "Memory of the People" information system, are the Russian Federation (with respect to documents provided by Russian state archives, state bodies, and organizations), as well as foreign state archives and other organizations that provided electronic copies of these documents.
The copyright holders of audiovisual works provided by the Russian State Archive of Film and Photo Documents and posted on the websites of the "Memory of the People" information system are the authors of these works.
The operator of the websites of the "Memory of the People" information system (hereinafter referred to as the Operator) is the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation or an organization authorized by it.
All services, as well as information content provided by the websites of the "Memory of the People" information system, are state information services provided free of charge.
A mandatory condition for the use of documents from the website in publications related to the history of the Great Patriotic War is a reference to the website.
My understanding is that the website considers its services and content to be state-provided information freely available, but requires attribution.
Could someone please advise on the most appropriate license to use? At this point of time, I gave it CC-BY-4.0. I want to ensure full compliance with copyright law and Wikimedia Commons guidelines. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
These documents were created during Great Patriotic War (1941-1945), so Creative Commons licenses did not exist at that time. Since Russia is heir of Soviet Union, general rules for government-created documents are applicable. --EugeneZelenko (talk) 14:34, 14 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 1 day ago3 comments2 people in discussion
I created in Wikidata a new item d:Q130530281 as a subclass of d:Q117075694. I wil use the SDC script to move Commons files to the new item. However there are files such as File:Tramway de Gand - Enmarchement de la rame PCC 34 (6034).JPG where d:Q117075694 was used. Can I later check for files with both tram and train items?Smiley.toerist (talk) 12:57, 14 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
It is a private company and if not violating the law, they can do whatever (...) they want. If they choose to ignore stuff on commons - that´s fine. Alexpl (talk) 20:02, 14 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I was not saying it's illegal. That may be fine according to law. I wonder if it's fine to Commons that users' contributions are just blacked out and not available to people. Prototyperspective (talk) 21:39, 14 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Huge filesizes for photos are a cost factor when it comes to processing and are almost never worth it anyway. I dont blame them from not wanting photos with the megabytes in the three digits to show up, whenever somebody types in a generic searchterm. Alexpl (talk) 14:13, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
This seems offtopic. 1. Most files on WMC are not many MBs large and this is not about some particular few large files. 2. It only shows gstatic thumbnails in Google Search, not the whole image, and it's the same for DDG and other search engines. It's absurd to argue that Google's storage or processing would have notable issues that out of the millions of indexed website makes WMC one whose media is not findable. You can of course defend anti-WMC practices – despite that I don't understand why Commons contributors could be supportive of that – but this point does not make sense, partly because this isn't about the <0.1% of WMC files that are large image files to begin with. Prototyperspective (talk) 14:33, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I said it seems offtopic and I did notdismiss the comment but address it comprehensively. When I say it seems offtopic that is for example because I may have misunderstood it and/or the user may want to clarify how it would be ontopic. I do wonder why you're so super sensitive about me using the word offtopic. The user did say something but did not explain how it relates to this subject and clarifying that with clear language is I think more constructive than beating around the bush. Prototyperspective (talk) 16:41, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
There is a commercial interest in steering the search results to commercial and social websites. These generate clicks, not the commons. I do have the impression that Google is much more interested in SDC of files than the Commons categories. Every effort should be made to fill in the P:P180. Google certainly uses the labels in Wikidata as datafeed for the search engines. Also used for educating the translation software.Smiley.toerist (talk) 10:12, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Wikipedia itself is indexed rather highly on Google search results though. And it does index images that are used in Wikipedia articles, but this treatment isn't extended to the other Wikimedia projects. (I can't speak for other media files however). ReneeWrites (talk) 18:26, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yes Wikipedia is, but not Commons, the second largest Wikimedia project with a type of content that lots of people are interested in, watch and search for (media of all kinds). It does not index any video on here (at least in my tests I could not find any so far even when searching for the exact title) and images I think are only indexed when they're used in Wikipedia articles and even then often missing from the main results. One part of the proposal is systematic tests/investigations so there is some data on this. I think overall the indexing is pretty bad even when one is searching for a subject that WMC has lots of high quality contents and other image results that are shown are fairly low-quality. One could also focus on the videos. Prototyperspective (talk) 20:32, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Google often indexes images that are not in a Wikipedia article. I find plenty if I do specifically an image search. But it doesn't tend to list pages that are mainly an image in its general results, so Commons image pages often don't show in the result if you do a general Google search. - Jmabel ! talk05:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Rarely it does, but indexing a random tiny subset of files doesn't change anything about the issue and only makes it harder to notice this. I did not find plenty of images for prior searches I did where I then either used an image not from WMC despite that I know WMC has at least as good images well-organized or used the WMC search. Again, investigations are the first step of what is proposed so maybe you could share your searches. Images certainly shouldn't show up in the general search results (well nearly always) – I made it clear that this is about the Images and Videos tabs of these sites...only when it comes to category pages is this about the general search results. I currently don't have many good examples. Things I searched for (those may not be the best examples) I think included roughly Rivers from space and Algae blooms from space and Satellite picture of cities at night. This is not about Google&DDG not indexing any files on WMC. Please let me know if that should be clearer in the proposal. It is about them indexing only very few images (and those are not even the most relevant or best) when it should be many (e.g. in searches where WMC has lots of good-organized files), not showing nearly all categories in the results and not indexing any videos. Maybe it should be clearer that isn't necessarily all Google's fault – the investigations may reveal things Wikimedia community & tech could do to improve its inclusion in external search results – however such steps depend on investigations and don't mean step 2 & 3 are invalid, other things could follow up on that step in addition and shape these two. Prototyperspective (talk) 11:30, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Google clearly does take these images into account. I looked up a handful of terms:
Google Images searches
hubble extreme deep field (1 top result from WMF projects)
pando tree (2 top results from WMF projects)
tokyo tower (2 top results from WMF projects)
african renaissance monument (2 top results from WMF projects)
burj khalifa (2 top results from WMF projects)
gutenberg bible (2 top results from WMF projects)
ka'ba (7 top results from WMF projects)
michelangelo david (3 top results from WMF projects)
mount denali (3 top results from WMF projects and 1 from Wikiwand, which mirrors Wikipedia)
keyboard (0 top results from WMF projects. In this case, it gave me stores near me to buy keyboards, which makes perfect sense, if you ask me.)
hurricane milton (1 top result from WMF projects)
vladimir putin (1 top result from WMF projects)
mitochondrion (1 top result from WMF projects)
october revolution (2 top results from WMF projects)
northern lights (0 top results from WMF projects)
train (3 top results from WMF projects)
barcelona (1 top result from WMF projects)
mesopotamia (2 top results from WMF projects)
If you narrow your search to CC images, you get more from Flickr and Commons:
Google Images searches - Narrowed to Creative Commons
hubble extreme deep field (4 top results from WMF projects)
pando tree (4 top results from WMF projects)
tokyo tower (4 top results from WMF projects)
african renaissance monument (6 top results from WMF projects)
burj khalifa (7 top results from WMF projects)
gutenberg bible (4 top results from WMF projects)
ka'ba (5 top results from WMF projects, decreased)
michelangelo david (6 top results from WMF projects)
mount denali (3 top results from WMF projects)
keyboard (4 top results from WMF projects)
hurricane milton (1 top result from WMF projects)
vladimir putin (4 top results from WMF projects)
mitochondrion (16(!) top results from WMF projects)
october revolution (1 top result from WMF projects, decreased)
northern lights (3 top results from WMF projects)
train (4 top results from WMF projects)
barcelona (2 top results from WMF projects)
mesopotamia (5 top results from WMF projects)
I don't believe there even is a problem. Sure, results from WMF projects are only 1 or 2 in many cases, but:
it's not like there was any other site that did have a majority of the top results
you can improve them by searching for CC content
Wikipedia was almost always in the results, even if they didn't have a majority in the top images (which there's no reason it should, might I add). I can't say the same about other results I saw, like Britannica, NatGeo, Adobe Stock, etc.
Google is showing results from Wikipedia, Commons, and even smaller projects like Wikispecies and Wikivoyage, at times .I wouldn't put it past them that they're prioritizing commercial and social sites that run Google Ads (purely speculation from my part, don't take my word for it), but I find it hard to believe that they're straight up censoring, shadowbanning, or otherwise limiting results from WMF projects. Rubýñ(Scold)17:21, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I haven't repeated all the searches to test this, but with the ones I did I only got 1 result from WMF, and it was the image in the infobox of the Wikipedia article about the subject. ReneeWrites (talk) 20:29, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
October 15
Admin action rational
Latest comment: 17 hours ago15 comments6 people in discussion
I wonder how much explanation we should expect from admins for their admin actions.
Supposedly, an admin should be able to explain which policy they applied when the delete content from Commons. It's fairly obvious when the content is deleted due to copyright issues, but less so, in other case.
His question probably relates to deleting unnecessary empty categories that will not be filled in the foreseeable future. To be fair, I would like to inform admin @Yann about this ongoing discussion. Lukas Beck (talk) 14:29, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Enhancing999: If an Admin is doing something wrong, then certainly they should be held accountable. On the other hand, if a user is doing something wrong (like trying to keep empty categories without good reason), then they should be held accountable. — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 21:29, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Up to a point. But if I had to give a detailed explanation tying every action I took back to policy, I would not get much done. Most of the time, it should be clear on the surface. For example, if I correct a misspelled category name, I'm probably not going to cite a specific policy to say why. - Jmabel ! talk05:15, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Not by default, but when asked about it, shouldn't you be able to explain that category names are to be spelled in English per our policy on categories (insert link), that the word is written without the letter "y" as can be found in Wiktionary (insert link), and thus you fixed a typo, applied this or that part of speedy deletion policy (insert link) after the stated delay (insert link). The detailed explanation would be almost the same for thousands of admin actions.
Jeff: your comment appears to be off-topic. Please discuss CSD with Yann on their user page. The question here isn't about a particular action of Yann. ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 21:39, 15 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Generally admins don't give rationales for their actions. Nor do I think they should in a lot of cases because it would just get in the way of them doing their jobs. Deleting empty categories being one instance where it's totally pointless and would just needlessly slow things down. Probably with something like blocks they can and should do a better job explaining the reasoning behind it though. I don't think the default block message is really helpful or gets at the issue that led to the block in a lot of, if not most, cases. And the person who is blocked risks having their talk page access restricted or the length of the block getting extended if they ask for clarification about it. Which just seems like a bad way to go about things. Although I don't really see it changing either though. There doesn't really need to be a policy based reason for anything admins do in most cases anyway and it's not like they are (or ever will be) held accountable for anything either. --Adamant1 (talk) 00:51, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Collecting encouragement and support
Latest comment: 1 day ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Latest comment: 15 hours ago4 comments2 people in discussion
This page requested cropped images, which I created from the source image. However, the system penalizes if I try to add the new images to the page.
Below are the source image and cropped images:
Love American Style cast 1973.JPG - Wikimedia Commons
Love American Style cast 1973.middle.jpg
Love American Style cast 1973.1.jpg
For the last image, I uploaded several versions which you can see at my uploads.
@Starlighsky: You don't say what page (or even what website) you want these added to. The latter two are not very good photos, they are tiny, I would certainly hesitate to add them to (for example) a Wikipedia article. And "the system penalizes" is unclear. Is this something you were asked not to do? If so, you certainly should not encourage someone else to do it on your behalf. - Jmabel ! talk05:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Here is the site: File:Love American Style cast 1973.JPG - Wikimedia Commons
Latest comment: 10 hours ago2 comments2 people in discussion
We use reverse image searches pretty often, mainly for determining if a new upload exists elsewhere on the web, but also for looking for 3rd party usage of the files we host. It looks like Google is deprecating its reverse image search in favor of Lens. What are people using as a substitute? I never got particularly good results with TinEye... — Rhododendritestalk | 14:08, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
I get good results with TinEye and use a browser extension so that one only needs to right click the image to reverse search it. I think it would be better if bots/scripts did the reverse searches. Don't know what you mean with the Google issue – it can still reverse search, maybe click on "Find image source" at the top. I don't think there are other options – they would be on https://imgops.com/. Prototyperspective (talk) 15:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
IP edit edit confirmation
Latest comment: 9 hours ago1 comment1 person in discussion
There is a proposal to test if requiring anon users to confirm their edits by clicking the edit button again and showing a warning to avoid accidental edits can reduce the amount of bad edits. There is currently a consensus to test this but with only three people involved Commons:Village pump/Proposals#Simple edit confirmation. There was also the question on numbers of bad edits. I created a tool that shows how many edits are marked as reverted also compared to the patrolled edits that shows the potential high numbers of unseen bad edits [3]. GPSLeo (talk) 16:55, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
UploadWizard gives author as "[[User:Example|Example]]"
Latest comment: 6 hours ago1 comment1 person in discussion
UploadWizard has started between 16:42 and 18:41 UTC today in my uploads to put the whole wikitext syntax again as the label of the link for the author, e.g. here. In wikitext this is: [[User:Example|[[User:Example|Example]]]]. Other files uploaded with UploadWizard at Special:NewFiles seem not to be concerned. Do you know if this is a known bug? --Marsupium (talk) 19:30, 16 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Seeking volunteers to join several of the movement’s committees
Latest comment: 3 hours ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Each year, typically from October through December, several of the movement’s committees seek new volunteers.
Read more about the committees on their Meta-wiki pages:
Applications for the committees open on 16 October 2024. Applications for the Affiliations Committee close on 18 November 2024, and applications for the Ombuds commission and the Case Review Committee close on 2 December 2024. Learn how to apply by visiting the appointment page on Meta-wiki. Post to the talk page or email cst@wikimedia.org with any questions you may have.
Latest comment: 1 hour ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I did the requested cropping for File:Love American Style cast 1973.JPG - Wikimedia Commons
The cropped images are in the links for the respective images requested on the file page.
If someone has access to the technology to improve the cropped images, that would be great. Starlighsky (talk) 00:44, 17 October 2024 (UTC)Reply
Support The file name and caption are the first things you see when you select an image that's used on Wikipedia for better viewing, right before you click through to the file's own page. For most people it'll probably be the only information they'll see. This information is absolutely important enough that it should be mentioned in the file name. ReneeWrites (talk) 13:03, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Oppose. Nice idea, but I prefer templates that can be translated and add properties. Latin letters in a filename are not a good clue in other scripts. We may have endless rename requests. File naming hacks are also not systematic; we do not routinely encode other properties in filenames. Glrx (talk) 15:47, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Comment from a filemover. If you want to apply this requirement to files after upload, you should amend Commons:File renaming to make it clear that lacking a statement of AI-generation in the filename is good cause for renaming. Either by adding a new numbered criterion or by finding a way to shoehorn it into an existing one (2 or 3, I'd guess). --bjh21 (talk) 21:01, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Strong oppose no no no, file names shouldn't be used for that. This opens up Pandora's box for controversial subjects. This should be in the file description, not in the name. Multichill (talk) 12:53, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Support further development - I think that the potential for abusing AI is something we have to address, but I am going to kindly ask that the details of the proposal should be developed further. Therefore, I support further development of this proposal into a draft policy or something like that. --Minoa (talk) 10:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Prototyperspective (talk) 15:04, 15 October 2024 (UTC) 
Done - Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Raster quick response codes. I've included the decoded content of most of the images. Omphalographer (talk) 03:17, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
Thank you.! modern_primat ඞඞඞ ----TALK 05:42, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
link to a category