━━━━ 𝐌𝐎𝐑𝐓 𝐓𝐎 𝐌𝐎𝐑𝐒

Arya being masculinized, adultified, and having her trauma ignored because people think she's "too strong" to be a victim is such a core experience for young girls of color

Tags from @fromtheseventhhell

i brought this up to an old friend of mine & they actually turned it around on me & implied that i was racist for having a problem with jon & arya being darker than sansa / bran / rickon / robb, as if my problem was with them being mixed rather than the blatant obvious reasons they're drawn that way. especially when we have sansa's pov stating

like the bastardphobia is already bad enough, but if you couple it with the desire to overly masculinize characters who they deem are poc then it definitely reeks :3

people will defend grrm not writing the books by saying "REAL book readers know the REAL conclusion" & then they believe f!aegon is real despite being introduced in the most red herring way, that daenerys will commit genocide in either the water gardens or king's landing, that the only good targaryens are dead targaryens & that everyone will come to understand the iron throne is a magical centerpiece that chooses who sits on it despite george saying "no its just a chair"

i defend grrm not writing because i know that he's an 80 year old man currently facing mortality & knowing that his public image has been squandered by bad adaptations & the ever prevalent meme that he's "too lazy" to write & also because 3/4 of this fandom just don't deserve to see it through

we are not the same

you guys have to remember that rhaenyra is fully aware that in order to keep the realm at peace, it is highly likely aegon ii will want to kill her to maintain control over the throne & that includes her kids (the very thing that otto was grooming alicent into believing, except the cases here are two drastically different: rhaenyra was rightful heir to the throne & could ascend without tension / in order for aegon ii to maintain stability to the realm after usurping his half-sister, he would actually have to butcher her & her entire family, ESPECIALLY her children with daemon)

hotd fandom believes otto's pressuring that rhaenyra would put her half-siblings to the sword despite her showing absolutely 0 interest in doing so pre-usurpation but cannot believe that the entire green council would go behind alicent's back to ensure that rhaenyra & her children would die despite the green council actively going behind her back anyway

“Still you defend him!” is a crazy line to be thrown when from rhaenyra’s pov the only fault aegon has committed is ascending the throne. i guess it’s just so outrageous to her that anyone would dare live without abiding by her wishes

“The only fault Aegon committed is literally stealing her birthright and starting a WAR??”

Do y’all even HEAR YOURSELVES??

Aegon’s just daring to live without abiding by her wishes??? Y’all act like Aegon decided to date a girl Rhaenyra didn’t approve of instead of HIM STEALING HER THRONE. Him putting her life at risk and starting a WAR.

Just say you’re sexist and MOVE ONNNN

you're missing op point

rhaenyra saying this to - alicent - , who is aegon's mother is what's ridiculous.

like yeah obvs she's going to defend her son over her enemy. alicent and otto are the ones who put aegon on that throne - aegon literally begged to be left alone. rhaenyra knows otto and alicent have been plotting to put aegon on the throne for the past 20 years.

and even if aegon was the one who took the throne without alicent knowing about any of his plans, it should be pretty obvs that she would still support her son over the woman she spent the last 20 years hating.

also while i'm on my bs, the greens did offer peace terms to rhaenyra. she put her family's lives in danger and chose to continue the war & stave an entire city because she refused to give up her claim. not saying that she should've or that it's fair but she's also very much responsible for this war.

No that doesn’t make sense. Rhaenyra didn’t walk into Alicent’s bedroom and then accuse her of defending her son.

Alicent came to Dragonstone to BEG for her and Helaena’s life and for peace. So yes it makes sense for Rhaenyra to be angry that Alicent is out here asking for peace but still is defending Aegon.

This whole bullshit about Aegon not wanting the throne needs to be thrown in the trash can. Aegon grew up neglected because Viserys didn’t like him and see him as worthy of the throne, so Aegon himself stopped seeing himself as worthy of the throne. Once he is crowned he’s out there raising the sword above his head, looking proud and glorious and shocked that even if his father hated him, the small folk loved him. He does want to be king. He wants to be recognized, he just put that desire aside because of the humiliation he felt that his father didn’t recognize him.

The audacity to say that Rhaenyra chose to continue this war is outlandish. Rhaenyra’s throne was usurped and still she didn’t strike. She struck only after Aemond MURDERED her son. The onus of blame will forever lie on the Greens. To put the blame on her and saying she’s the bad guy for not letting a man steal her throne is crazy. Nothing would have happened if Alicent and Otto just stfu their big mouths for one second. Aegon could have abdicated later too if he didn’t want the throne that fucking bad and was willing to support Rhaenyra. Targaryen women have been passed up for their claim MULTIPLE times, the one time a woman stood strong in her right suddenly she’s the bad guy and stood have stepped aside.

This blatant sexism in the fandom is weird and concerning.

are you purposefully ignoring everything i wrote?

firstly, that whole finale makes no sense. secondly, rhaenyra is very much aware to the fact that alicent and otto have been plotting to place aegon on the throne ever since he was a child. alicent did come to dragonstone asking for peace (i hate this and it makes no sense) but rhaenyra literally got angry at alicent for not being ok with her son being murdered. like be so fr

aegon did not want the throne. not that rhaenyra is aware of that fact, but he def did not want it & obvs only saw it as a way of getting the love he desperately craves.

rhaenyra did chose to continue this war. the choice to place a blockade was made before luke's death in ep 10. she was offered peace terms and rejected them. and once again, i'm not saying that she should've or that it's fair (since you clearly didn't read my post), but she did have a choice. she is not the bad guy, of course she's not entirely responsible for the war. BUT she does have some responsibility. she chose to place that blockade and starve an entire city. it was a choice she made. it's a war crime, and the fact that she was wronged is honestly no excuse. also, rhaenyra never seemed to care about the fact that she's starving innocent people to death. the only reason she sends relief is to get people to like her. she has shown 0 empathy for her people. like maybe if you're willing to stave an entire city for a throne maybe you didn't deserve it in the first place?

and i'm not saying aegon is more suited, or that the greens are not to blame. but rhaenyra has also committed war crimes that has resulted in innocent smallfolk death.

idk it's almost like no one deserves the throne & monarchy is shit?

"This blatant sexism in the fandom is weird and concerning." weird and concerning... ok sure. bold of you to assume you know anything about me from my takes on a dragon tv show & not liking one character. but sure, forgive my blatant sexism i promise i will do better in the future :( please show me how to be feminist like you :(

I’m not ignoring anything you wrote I acknowledged most everything, you’re just being obtuse.

Why the hell would Rhaenyra care for Alicent’s feelings is my POINT. Why wouldn’t Rhaenyra be shocked that Alicent has the audacity to ask for peace while still thinking that Aegon the Usurper could possibly be saved?? It makes no sense. Once Alicent crossed that line by asking for peace, she has no right to be defending the man who usurped the throne. Aegon took the throne. He sits on it. He did not abdicate it. He is not free from responsibility AT ALL. Rhaenyra is not the one who should be feeling sympathy for Alicent or her family.

If you acknowledge that Rhaenyra doesn’t know that Aegon didn’t want the throne then why would you be upset that she’s angry at Aegon and angry at Alicent for protecting that man??

Stop your bullshit condescension. I read your post stop acting like I just replied without reading it.

Rhaenyra has responsibility for continuing the war but her actions are but a reaction to the major act of violence which was USURPING HER THRONE IN THE FIRST PLACE. She will forever be at risk along with her children.

This whole idea of “deserving the throne” is ridiculous. When has Aegon done anything to deserve the throne? Rhaenyra is the one sitting at council meetings even recently after giving birth etc. War crime is not really a concept in that era and a blockade is probably the tamest level of a “war crime” in ASOIAF.

The whole nobody deserves the throne is another piece of bullshit, because regardless in this conflict there are people fighting for the throne and someone is going to get it. If you really believed in the nobody deserves the throne then you wouldn’t be such a Team Green fan and Aegon fan, you would be hating on them both at all times, but you’re not. Democracy isn’t going to happen in ASOIAF during the Dance with Dragons. You’re engaging with a fantasy story about a monarchy and royals, you don’t have to treat that aspect as inconsequential or irrelevant.

It’s clear that GRRM does believe that war is evil and hurts the small folk the most but his messaging with Rhaenyra is clear too.

Rhaenyra was a woman whose throne was usurped due to sexist beliefs a war started that destroyed house Targaryen and its dragons. It is a young FEMALE ruler that brings dragons BACK into the world and revives House Targaryen. The parallels and intent could not be clearer.

The sexist attitudes led to war, death and destruction. The sexist attitudes of Team Green.

um :///// how dare rhaenyra who was raised to inherit the throne continue a war for HER THRONE :///// how dare she reject alicent's peace terms :////// ummmmm too girlboss 4 me wheeeeee

dany & viserys

Daenys and her baby Balerion

You can't convince me he wasn't spoiled.

OH ALSO, drop of knowledge for those that answered the normalization of incest within the Targaryen family makes it less harmful

yeah that actually makes it more harmful!

if you do research on incest cults you will see the damaging effects of incest are just on an entire other level when your entire family thinks incest is ok and it is extremely normalized like that like

imagine you are getting beat daily, not only does it suck, but your entire family thinks beating you is what’s best for you, there is no one to turn to to say “i do not want to do this”, you are told it’s your duty to be beaten, the world celebrates as you announce you’ve been beaten again, and they say you look beautiful with bruises all over your face, that this is the best beating you could’ve asked for. you are lucky your family is going to continue to beat you, and you are expected to let your family beat your children. if you refuse you are shunned and they act like you are crazy, why do you hate your children? why do you hate us? do you not appreciate how we’ve beaten you over the years? we helped you and this is the thanks we get? you spend your entire life thinking there must be something wrong with you because you don’t want to get beaten, and everyone around you echoes that sentiment.

sounds worse right? right. now imagine that except it’s your uncle trying to fuck you

I think that's a bad comparison.

A beating is bad for your health, for everyone's, and incest in the real world is bad for the health of the children born of it.

That is not an issue in ASoIaF. There are no consequences for the incest there, whether between cousins or siblings or uncle/niece, aunt/nephew or even parents/children (Craster). Which is no surprise given that is a fantasy series.

The reason we don't practice incest in the real world is because it has consequences for the children born of it, whether mental or physical. That's not the case in the ASoIaF universe, where a beating also has mental and physical consequences.

dude no wtf, incest in GoT has consequences, like all incest. if you watched the Craster scenes and thought “wow his daughter wives look so happy and not at all effected by the horrible incest, I’m sure Gilly wants to run away just for shits and giggles” i think there may be something wrong with you or you have zero media literacy. like just cuz they didn’t sit there and go “hey btw, gilly doesn’t like being raped by her dad” doesn’t mean it’s not true, it’s common sense buddy, they didn’t feel the need to spell it out for you, although maybe they needed to bc omg wth. no amount of fantasy can make incest not harmful, that’s not how incest or fantasy works

ALSO, incest in the real world is not just harmful for children born of it, and that is not the main reason we don’t practice it. it is wrong to fuck your daughter even if you don’t get her pregnant, please do any amount of listening to incest survivors

Again, bad example, because what you have described with Craster is not exclusive of incestous couples. In ASoIaF, most women are treated like that by their husbands. They are all forced to marry abusive older men, it's not a thing of incest.

man just turn urself in at this point. you’re actually sitting her trying to tell me Crasters daughters hated him for tooootally not incest related reasons? jesus christ

you are genuinely delusional if you look at all the horribly effected victims of incest in this show and for each one go “nononono there’s actually other reasons for this it couldn’t POSSIBLY be the incest”

most women being sold off and forced to mary and make babies for older men doesnt mean it’s not 1000% times worse when that man is your father

Yeah, that definitely made it worse, but there a lot of others instances of incest in the series that are not abusive.

The problem in the series is not incest rather the abuse and treatment of women from men whatever from their family members or not.

George just seems to have a kink, because he has a lot of incestous relationships as great love stories, which is why I say that incest doesn't have consequences in the series. It doesn't. The problem is the treatment of women as a whole.

hi, incest survivor here.

maybe im misunderstanding but i thought when lizzie said "There are no consequences for the incest there, whether between cousins or siblings or uncle/niece, aunt/nephew or even parents/children (Craster)." since the second part of the statement was "The reason we don't practice incest in the real world is because it has consequences for the children born of it, whether mental or physical. That's not the case in the ASoIaF universe, where a beating also has mental and physical consequences." that it explicitly referred to mental & physical health states, as in physical & mental disabilities & not as a reference point for the emotional impact that incest can have.

i haven't seen any correlation to defects similar to the habsburgs despite it constantly being brought up by people who are very anti house targaryen or those who shame aegon ii's child jaehaerys for having six fingers, which seems less related to the incest & more of something that seemed to have happened (& this isn't including the amount of people who think targaryens genuinely birth dragon-like children prematurely as if most of those instances didn't contain outside blood magic interference.) however, there are cases in asoiaf of characters reacting negatively to their incestuous status but i think, culturally for valyrians, it doesn't nearly have the same impact on them as it would other families were they to adopt a similar pattern.

this isn't in defense of incest or anything — but moreover a suspension of belief for myself in particular as i find a lot of incestuous media uncomfortable, but simultaneously intriguing. the targaryens, like all valyrians before the fall, practice incest to keep the magic to fly dragons within their bloodline. this is all george expects us to think about it, so for me, as someone who survived assault all throughout my childhood, it's easy to pocket in "these are fantasy elves" compared to crastor who physically disgusted me, because his goal for reproduction was to sell his newborn sons to the wights to prevent them from overrunning his home. to me, his daughter-wives responding negatively to it was much different from alysanne & jaehaerys (& more couples i'm too lazy to get into) who rushed to be secretly married because they loved each other.

& this could be primarily a kink for george as incestuous relationships are also heavily featured within another project he worked on, elden ring. these families are dysfunctional, of course, but miquella the kind is a much more nefarious character compared to some of the targaryens who married direct siblings (with aerion and aerys & aegon iv being similar to miquella, although naerys was noted to be in love with her brother aemon instead). because we only have one pov targaryen character in daenerys so far, we see that she was resigned to the fact she might marry viserys one day.

i don't think lizzie is a reportable freak for saying "The problem in the series is not incest rather the abuse and treatment of women from men whatever from their family members or not" because.......it's true lol. of course there are instances of problematic incest within the series, but it also is heavily impacted by the period's violent misogyny.

this doesn't mean within fanfiction the negative impacts of incest aren't interesting to be explored, as one of my favorite fics from this fandom at the moment explores the potential of daemon's complex feelings towards viserys stems from childhood abuse — but within the text, it isn't significantly supported, no.

i think my point is being lost

i think the targaryens are fascinating and im not saying anyone that thinks theyre interesting is a bad person, they are a great part of the story and yes it makes sense that a family like this would exist

im saying

a) The Targaryens are feeling the emotional and psychological impacts of incest even if they never realize it bc of how normalized it is and bc of the time period

b) it is factually incorrect to believe someone not realizing incest is bad makes the incest less harmful

c) if you hear about the Targaryens and ur response is "now i will ship incest" i am concerned and think u need to speak to a therapist

d) saying the reason we dont practice incest irl is bc it makes children disabled sets off every single one of my red flags

no i most certainly did not ignore your point & i even addressed it in my own post saying that as a survivor, that thought process is indeed valid & can be healing.

a) this is true, which is why i brought up dany being resigned to the fact she would have eventually married viserys & even becoming more & more fearful the more violent he became towards her. unfortunately, this isn’t the same thought process all targaryens have.

b) i promise you everyone within this fandom, save for people who are primarily pro-ship & ship whatever they want no matter the circumstances, is aware about the irl ramifications of incest. within fiction, especially given the state of the world & the targaryens upholding the doctrine of exceptionalism (an in-universe propoganda explanation as to why they practice incest) means they are probably not well-aware of the moral/mental/etc side effects of incest.

c) if i, a victim of incest, choose to ship a targaryen with another targaryen, including jon & dany who are confirmed blood-related within the show universe only, that does not reflect on my state of health whatsoever. i speak to a therapist regularly about my past & my trauma, so weaponizing that against me is weird & does nothing to validate how i choose to cope with my childhood trauma. it makes you an asshole.

d) i didn’t say that & I’m sure that wasn’t entirely lizzie’s point either lmao. we don’t practice incest irl because of the traumatic way it affects us mentally, physically, spiritually & healthily. it is also entirely against moral ethics. in-universe, half of these are not acknowledged so take that up with george instead of victim shaming other victims.

i’d also like to add that attacking someone’s character & implying they should seek therapy or that they should be arrested for their beliefs over a fictional universe is also a red flag. you are engaging with a universe known for its highly problematic topics & tropes. if that’s not something you as a victim are able to handle without resurfacing your own trauma, then that’s on you & maybe you should revisit the medium when you are able to discuss the topics without ad hominem attacks. attacking someone’s character & forcing allegations upon them is weird as fuck.