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{{WikiProject
{{WikiProject Judaism | importance= high }}
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{{old move|date=29 November 2021|from=39 Melachot|destination=Melakha|result=moved}}
{{old move|date=17 May 2022|from=Melakha|destination=39 Melakhot|result=moved|link=Special:Permalink/1091355669#Requested move 17 May 2022}}
==Usefullness of Article==
Line 200 ⟶ 204:
==Merger discussion==
I propose merging [[Shabbos goy]] into this article. The article by itself fails [[WP:N]]. This is not an official concept in [[Judaism]], rather just a term for something some Jewish people do on [[Shabbat]]. The only part of this article with quality references is the one sentence in the end that would probably be removed if the article was cleaned up. The actual article itself, the part that defines the concept, has only two references, both of which are non-scholarly. One is from dailyhalacha.com, and another from [https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1140867/jewish/The-Myth-of-the-Shabbos-Goy.htm chabad.com]. I believe both articles would be much improved by the merger. --[[User:Puzzledvegetable|<u style="color:#0000ff"><span style="font-family:Century Gothic;color:#000000">Puzzledvegetable</span></u>]]<b><sup style="font-family:Century Gothic">[[User talk:Puzzledvegetable|Is it teatime already?]]</sup></b> 13:09, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
===Discussion===
:::<small class="merger-notice">Note: Requested additional input from [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism]]. [[User:Puzzledvegetable|<u style="color:#0000ff"><span style="font-family:Century Gothic;color:#000000">Puzzledvegetable</span></u>]]<b><sup style="font-family:Century Gothic">[[User talk:Puzzledvegetable|Is it teatime already?]]</sup></b> 13:49, 12 August 2019 (UTC)</small>
*'''Oppose''' the article was just closed at AFD as Keep. To immediately open a merge discussion seems a bit disruptive. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] <sup>[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|<span style="color: Green;">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 18:13, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
::On the contrary, multiple people in that discussion discussed merging. This is simply the natural follow up discussion. --[[User:Puzzledvegetable|<u style="color:#0000ff"><span style="font-family:Century Gothic;color:#000000">Puzzledvegetable</span></u>]]<b><sup style="font-family:Century Gothic">[[User talk:Puzzledvegetable|Is it teatime already?]]</sup></b> 18:16, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
:::Article is still well referenced, not sure where you get only two references from, notable and not needed to be merged. My oppose still stands. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] <sup>[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|<span style="color: Green;">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 18:22, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
::::"The only part of this article with quality references is the one sentence in the end that would probably be removed if the article was cleaned up. The actual article itself, ''the part that defines the concept'', has only two references, both of which are non-scholarly." And I still stand by that statement. --[[User:Puzzledvegetable|<u style="color:#0000ff"><span style="font-family:Century Gothic;color:#000000">Puzzledvegetable</span></u>]]<b><sup style="font-family:Century Gothic">[[User talk:Puzzledvegetable|Is it teatime already?]]</sup></b> 18:24, 12 August 2019 (UTC) + minor edit
:::::You keep repeating that but it's simply not true, as a simple read of the article indicates. More importantly, the "Further reading" section contains other, excellent scholarly sources which can (and should) be used to expand the article. And finally, insisting that "the part that defines the concept" is the only "actual article" is an artificial and unreasonable restriction. The article is about a social role, and everything that goes with that; it is not about a dictionary definition. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg]] <sup><small>[[User talk:Jayjg|<span style="color: DarkGreen;">(talk)</span>]]</small></sup> 20:55, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
::::::It was true when I wrote that statement, however the article has since been cleaned up, primarily by you and I thank you for that. Next, just because something is noted in the further reading section doesn't make it a reference unless that particular work is cited somewhere as a reference. I'm sure the concept has been written about, I just don't think that warrants Wikipedia writing about it. And lastly, by using the phrase "the part that defines the concept" I trimmed exactly one sentence off the end, and it's a fairly unencyclopedic one at that. I'm sure many people have helped their Jewish neighbors. Doesn't mean that they need to be listed here. Should we also maintain an article titled "Helping the elderly cross the street" with a list of all the famous people that have done that? --[[User:Puzzledvegetable|<u style="color:#0000ff"><span style="font-family:Century Gothic;color:#000000">Puzzledvegetable</span></u>]]<b><sup style="font-family:Century Gothic">[[User talk:Puzzledvegetable|Is it teatime already?]]</sup></b> 21:16, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
:::::::Are you aware that I got information for the article from the Encyclopedia Judaica? Clearly it's a notable topic. If you can't see the difference between Shabbos Goy and "Helping the elderly cross the street" that is on you, not on the encyclopedia. Shabbos goy is a worthy topic for an encyclopedia. I am really not sure why you it seems like you have some sort of vendetta here. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] <sup>[[User_talk:Sir Joseph|<span style="color: Green;">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 23:46, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Specifically because that article is about a social role rather than a ritual law, it is not appropriate for this article, which is about ritual law. [[User:Ar2332|Ar2332]] ([[User talk:Ar2332|talk]]) 20:27, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per the consensus of [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shabbos goy]]. Most editors commenting there were quite clear that a merge would be inappropriate, and others suggested merging ''only if'' the article was deleted. As [[User:Ar2332|Ar2332]] points out, "that article is about a social role rather than a ritual law, it is not appropriate for this article, which is about ritual law." [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg]] <sup><small>[[User talk:Jayjg|<span style="color: DarkGreen;">(talk)</span>]]</small></sup> 20:55, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' I think that [[Shabbos goy]] is a nice, short article. No need to delete or merge it. I agree that this proposal, so short after the Afd discussion is a bit pointy. I would have been a lot happier with the nominating editor turning his energy to improving that article. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 21:24, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' As mentioned above, there is no room in a technical article such as this one for a social concept, and the AfD has settled this by consensus. The situation is perfect now as is, with Shabbos goy listed under See also, which is the place to put similar topics that do not fit anywhere else in the prose. [[User:Havradim|Havradim]] ([[User talk:Havradim|talk]]) 21:04, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
== Proposal to rename ==
The content of this article seems to be almost exclusively about the 39 melachot. The [[Rabbinically prohibited activities of Shabbat]] are covered in a separate article. Therefore, I think "Activities prohibited on Shabbat" is an inappropriate name. I suggest moving the article to either "Melacha" or "Melacha on Shabbat". Thoughts? [[User:Ar2332|Ar2332]] ([[User talk:Ar2332|talk]]) 22:00, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
== Requested move 29 November 2021 ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''
The result of the move request was: '''moved'''. Uncontested move request. <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> [[User:Colonestarrice|Colonestarrice]] ([[User talk:Colonestarrice|talk]]) 10:21, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
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[[:39 Melachot]] → {{no redirect|Melakha}} – In Hebrew, "Melakha" is singular and "Melachot" is plural - per [[WP:PLURAL]] the singular is generally preferred, although this might fall under the "groups of specific things" clause to use a plural. Regardless, the numeral usage seems incorrect, though I can't find the exact rule it is violating. There is no common term or exact translation in English other than the transliteration so I don't see a [[WP:USEENGLISH]] alternative to propose. [[User:力]] (powera, [[User talk:力|<span style="color:#FA0;font-family:courier">π</span>]], [[Special:Contributions/力|<span style="font-family:courier">ν</span>]]) 21:23, 29 November 2021 (UTC) <small>— '''''Relisting.''''' '''[[User:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>[[User talk:Vice regent|talk]]</sub> 22:13, 6 December 2021 (UTC)</small><small>— '''''Relisting.''''' —usernamekiran • sign the [[User:Usernamekiran/guestbook|guestbook]] • [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 05:29, 15 December 2021 (UTC)</small>
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
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==Requesting move back==
I just noticed that the page was moved from '''39 Melachot''' to '''Melakha'''. I think this should be reversed, for the following reasons:
* Per [[WP:PLURAL]], the 39 melakhot are indeed a group or class of specific things.
* "Melakha" alone is misleading as it can imply that there is only one form of melakha, when in fact rabbinic sources are clear that there are 39 forms which are treated separately (e.g. receive separate punishments).
* The parallel Wikipedia articles in Hebrew, Yiddish, and most other languages are of the form "39 Melakhot".
* [[Special:AllPages/1|It is perfectly acceptable for a Wikipedia page to begin with a number.]]
* After the previous move, the article now begins with the line "The Melakha (Hebrew: ל״ט אבות מלאכה, lamed tet avot melakhah, "39 forms of work") are thirty-nine categories of activity" which is incoherent and incorrect. I would suggest that editors not perform wholesale changes like replacing the title and part of the header if they do not understand the topic they are writing about. [[User:Ar2332|Ar2332]] ([[User talk:Ar2332|talk]]) 21:09, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
== Requested move 17 May 2022 ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ''
The result of the move request was: '''moved.''' On [[WP:PLURAL]] grounds. <small>([[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Closure by a page mover|closed by non-admin page mover]])</small> — ''Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung'', ''[[User:Mellohi!|mello]]'''''[[User talk:Mellohi!|hi!]]''' ([[Special:Contributions/Mellohi!|投稿]]) 03:34, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
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[[:Melakha]] → {{no redirect|39 Melakhot}} – Seconded. What the heck is this move? The resulting sentence makes no sense whatsoever. This is a mistake. While we could say "Melakha is prohibited work on the Sabbath, of which there are 39 types (39 Melakhot)" and be grammatically correct, the previous name was better. [[User:GordonGlottal|GordonGlottal]] ([[User talk:GordonGlottal|talk]]) 21:23, 17 May 2022 (UTC) <small>— '''''Relisting.''''' [[User:Extraordinary Writ|Extraordinary Writ]] ([[User talk:Extraordinary Writ|talk]]) 00:15, 26 May 2022 (UTC)</small>
*'''Comment''' This RM was malformed and has been fixed. If you are coming through [[WP:RM]] to this discussion, the nom is "seconding" the comment immediately above by {{user|Ar2332}}. –[[User:LaundryPizza03|<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b>]] ([[User talk:LaundryPizza03|<span style="color:#0d0">d</span>]][[Special:Contribs/LaundryPizza03|<span style="color:#0bf">c̄</span>]]) 14:07, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
*'''Support''' The previous RM was closed without participation, and I agree that [[WP:PLURAL]] applies here. –[[User:LaundryPizza03|<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b>]] ([[User talk:LaundryPizza03|<span style="color:#0d0">d</span>]][[Special:Contribs/LaundryPizza03|<span style="color:#0bf">c̄</span>]]) 14:09, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' [[User:GordonGlottal|GordonGlottal]], I notice that your request spells Melakhot with a k, while the original page title spelt it Melachot with a c. Is there any distinction between the two as to what the more suitable title should be? [[User:Turnagra|Turnagra]] ([[User talk:Turnagra|talk]]) 19:44, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
::[[User:Extraordinary Writ|@Extraordinary Writ]] Yes! Thank you, I hadn't noticed. It should be spelled "Melakhot" according to [[WP:HE]]. I'll add an efn with variant spellings. This is a convention to distinguish ח and כ, which are pronounced identically by almost all modern speakers. In this case there is no word מלחות/מלאחות to confuse it with but the correct spelling still helps readers reverse-engineer the original word. [[User:GordonGlottal|GordonGlottal]] ([[User talk:GordonGlottal|talk]]) 19:58, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
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