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Talk:Gaza War (2008–2009)/Archive 22

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Balonkey (talk | contribs) at 08:00, 8 January 2009 (→Have condemned either vs. Have either condemned). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Latest comment: 15 years ago by Balonkey in topic Have condemned either vs. Have either condemned
This page is for the lead debate only, for all other issues use Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict

Hello everyone. I created this page so that we can discuss the lead, and how to best improve it.VR talk 21:06, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Intro once again

Latest comment: 15 years ago31 comments7 people in discussion

This is how it stands now, I find it long, but otherwise pretty good. And it covers all the stuff including the cease-fire. Can we discuss it as we should be doing? --Cerejota (talk) 05:56, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

The 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict is an ongoing conflict, part of the wider Israeli-Palestinian conflict, between Israel and Palestinian Islamist group Hamas as well as other smaller Palestinian militias, which began at Gaza in 27 December 2008 with a series of air strikes, called by Israel Operation Cast Lead (Hebrew: מבצע עופרת יצוקה, Mivtza Oferet Yetzuka) following an end to a six-month temporary lull in hostilities between the Hamas-led de facto government of Gaza and Israel, which ended on 19 December 2008. Israel sustains it started the operation following a major increase in Hamas rocket attacks into Israel, culminating with 80 rockets on Christmas Eve, they also contend that the attacks are being undertaken in order to destroy Hamas' capability and motivation to launch future similar attacks on Israel. Hamas blamed Israel for the end of the temporary lull, saying it had not respected its terms, including the lifting of the Gaza Strip blockade. By the first evening, Israeli Air Force fighter-bomber aircraft had deployed approximately 100 tonnes (110 short tons) of explosives. Israel bombed roughly 100 Hamas-operated security installations (including police stations, prisons, and command centers) in four minutes during the first wave of the strike.[1][2] Israel also hit Hamas-operated security installations in all of Gaza's main towns, including Gaza City and Beit Hanoun in the north and Khan Younis and Rafah in the south.[3][4][5][6][7][8] This conflict is the deadliest conflict since Hamas established political control of Gaza in early 2006.[9][10][11] [4].[12][13]

At least 225 people were killed on the first day of the Israeli attack, making this the single highest casualty day in the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.[14] Later strikes resulted in casualties as well, with the total Palestinian toll having risen to 507 by Sunday 4 January 2009.[15] The attacks have also hit civilian infrastructure, including mosques and housing, with a great number of civilian casualties reported. Israel asserts many of these hid weapons and personnel, and that it is not targetting civilians.[16][17][18][19][20][21][22]




The Israeli Navy has shelled targets in Gaza, instituting at the same time a naval blockade of Gaza, which has resulted in one naval incident with a civilian boat.[23][24][25][26]

Hamas had decreased the amount of rocket and mortar attacks during the cease-fire period, and has renewed them, increasing the distance of attacks to as far away as 40 kilometres (25 mi) from the Gaza border, hitting civilian communities like Beersheba and Ashdod. These attacks have resulted in civilian casualties and damage to infrastructure, including a school.[27][28][29][30]

The IDF started massing infantry and armor units near the Gaza border and engaged in an active blockade of Gaza.[31] On 3 January 2009, a ground invasion began, with mechanised infantry, armor, and artillery units, supported by armed helicopters, entering Gaza.[32][33]

Both Israel and Hamas are under pressure for a humanitarian truce, while Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that Hamas' Damascus-based political leader, Khaled Meshal, had changed his earlier calls for ending the lull and started calling for a truce.[34][35][36] Israel has said its military action could last weeks, while Israeli defense minister Ehud Barak stated that this will be a "war to the bitter end." Hamas officials in the Gaza Strip have also dismissed the idea of a cease-fire.[34][35][37]

International reactions to the conflict have either condemned the Israeli operation, or Hamas' attacks, or both. Many countries and organisations have called for an immediate ceasefire and have expressed concern about the humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip[38][39]. Israel maintains that a humanitarian cease-fire is not necessary at this point.[40][41]


Discussion

Hi, I think maybe this bit could be taken out....I better elaborate on that a bit. Reasons = many -> it's the kind of statement that is problematic and causing instability in the lead e.g. 95% accuracy vs 25% civilian casualities probably has implications for many people who then feel obliged to mess up the lead, it's perhaps a bit of a military-geek focused statement, they are dropping big bombs which in seems are taking out much more than the target (as highlighted by the UNHRC), if I were living in Gaza I might understandably find the statement a bit bizarre and misleading etc etc. You get the idea.
with an estimated 95 percent reaching their intended targets, according to IAF sources. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:20, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
(1)I agree. Not only is this is a "military geek" statement, claims of accuracy made by the IAF have been seriously questioned See [here] and in the absence of independent verification, these claims should not be taken at face value. (2) The references that support this claim dont actually mention a 95% figure. In fact one of the references mentions "alpha hits" supposed to mean direct hits. (3) This line has been discussed since yesterday and in the absence of proper referencing and a coherent justification, I think it should be removed. I'll do that now. If you would like to reinstate it, please discuss here. Jacob2718 (talk) 06:41, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
This 95% accuracy is criticized on a BBC article here. --Darwish07 (talk) 06:53, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
I realized now that the reference to the wider Israeli-Palestinian conflict was taken out. I am restoring. This very key contextual stuff that definitely belongs in a lead. (btw, as per above, I don't feel strongly either way, thats is stuff that belongs in the article, not the intro, but since it has survived I left it). Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 06:50, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
If the Hamas attacks on the Israeli school is to be mentioned in the introduction (a sad accident ofcourse), then it should be also mentioned that Israel attacked schools, infrastructure, the Islamic university, government buildings, mosques, and civil police stations. [42] .--Darwish07 (talk) 06:53, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
I think we need to edit "Israel sustains it started the operation following a major increase in Hamas rocket attacks into Israel". The use of the word "sustains" implies we are somehow casting doubt on the causality. "Israel started the operation following a major increase in Hamas rocket attacks into Israel" is a factually correct statement and "sustains" just makes it look like some sort of fudge. -- Noung (talk) 11:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Another thing: Hamas did not really "establish political control of Gaza in early 2006", because they were not allowed to. The establishment of control implies de facto as well as de jure authority, and Fatah and Israel frustrated their attempts to govern to the extent that they could not establish control fully until they did so forcefully in the 2007 Battle of Gaza. I am going to change this to read "since Hamas won the Palestinian legislative election in 2006". -- Noung (talk) 11:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
If it is a "sad accident" that Hamas sent over rockets that landed on a school, why is it not a "sad accident" that Israel actually hits her target?Tundrabuggy (talk) 17:46, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
There must be a mentioning of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. I suggest putting the UN statement "a human dignity crisis in the Gaza strip, entailing a massive destruction of livelihoods and a significant deterioration of infrastructure and basic services". [42] This would sum up this important situation pretty well. --Darwish07 (talk) 06:53, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
I would be interested in knowing just exactly what the livelihoods of the militant Hamas consisted of? What has Hamas done to create or improve "infrastructure and basic services? Tundrabuggy (talk) 17:46, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
And how is your question related to my query of adding the humanitarian crisis of Gaza to the introduction? --Darwish07 (talk) 18:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Why saying that Hamas attacks made civilian causalities and then no mention of Palestinian civilian causalities exist? What about the 62 women and children reported by the UN? --Darwish07 (talk) 06:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Of course there is plenty of mention of Palestinian "civilian" casualties all over this article. In fact, it hardly talks about anything else. Tundrabuggy (talk) 17:46, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Your statement did not give a reason why the Palestinian causalities should be omitted while the Israeli ones are mentioned in the introduction. --Darwish07 (talk) 18:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Why not acknowledging that in all Arab media, it's called the Black Gaza Massacre? Isn't the Arab opinions half the equation as supposed to be? --Darwish07 (talk) 07:05, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
In fact there has not been a decent reference WP:RSto that effect as of yet. Tundrabuggy (talk) 17:47, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I think there is perhaps a unconcious tendency amongst many editors to be shy of including things like 'The whatever Massacre' because they consider it 'emotive' etc and then simply accepting sanitised terms like 'Operation whatever' without appreciating that those sanitised US network-friendly terms are just as emotive to many people. It is an important point that the article mustn't unconciously and thoughtlessly adopt the language of one of the belligerents. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:00, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Darwish07, if it's widely called "Black Gaza Massacre" in Arab media please provide some links to reliable sources and we can include that information in the article for certain. RomaC (talk) 11:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
I have Arabic references mentioning the incident as "Gazza massacre" all over the place including Aljazeera, Al Arabiya and BBC Arabic, can those be combined to one reference? --Darwish07 (talk) 18:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
I think so, bring on the links and we'll have a look. RomaC (talk) 02:21, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Some Arabic references:
--Darwish07 (talk) 06:27, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
I've archived the above entries just in case of some URL changes occurrence. They are, by order:
Thank you. --Darwish07 (talk) 04:02, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Please see new "Gaza Massacre" talk section below. RomaC (talk) 02:07, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Can youse guys stop the 2008-2009 Palestinian Lovefest :D a second, and read this:


Hows it does?--Cerejota (talk) 08:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

That's a fairer sentence. Now how about adding something about the thousands of Arabic phone calls made by Israel warning people that if they were living where weapons were stored that they should go somewhere else? Under the Geneva Conventions the presence of protected peoples in ammo dumps, or other military installations (targets) does not need to deter a military op. Tundrabuggy (talk) 17:52, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
"Now how about adding" the UN reports that mention that the extreme increase of leaflets have multiplied the fear and panic of Gazans and people are with no shelter anyway cause of the density of the Gaza strip? --Darwish07 (talk) 19:08, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Ooh, a bit of fresh air in comparison. Past introduction made the Pope more sinful than Israel. (no offense) Thanks for your efforts Cerejota, you're working really hard on all those stuff --Darwish07 (talk) 09:08, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
That's good Cerejota. You're doing fine work under difficult circumstances. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:10, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


In the paragraph:

Hamas had decreased the amount of rocket and mortar attacks during the cease-fire period, and has renewed them, increasing the distance of attacks to as far away as 40 kilometres (25 mi) from the Gaza border, hitting civilian communities like Beersheba and Ashdod. These attacks have resulted in civilian casualties and damage to infrastructure, including a school.[28][29][30][31] ,

I think the bits I have put in Italics should be taken out. These details are too detailed for the intro, and give too much weight to these rocket attacks which are not of most concern next to airforce bombings of the entire Gaza strip.

Please sign your comments by typing four tildes (~), like this: ~~~~ RomaC (talk) 02:19, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

The lead

Latest comment: 15 years ago8 comments4 people in discussion
  • An article that starts poorly will remain poor unless it is fixed. It is simply inaccurate to say that the Israel-Gaza conflict began in December 2008. The only thing that started then is Israel's offensive against the near-daily barrage of attacks from Hamas, ie Operation Cast Lead. Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:43, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Agree. Every once a while I pass through and add the fact that it came in response to the Hamas attacks, but it doesn't stay for long. Pretty surprising. Its removal is a major wp:npov violation. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:54, 5

January 2009 (UTC)

Lol, tell me about it. I have been reverted so many times it isn't funny anymore. In fact, I have been warned and even accused of 3RR vio for doing that as well. Since a certain viewpoint wp:POV seems to have control over the article, I will only put the perspective here in talk and wait until (and if) it dawns on someone ... Tundrabuggy (talk)
  • This statement is also just plain wrong: "This Israeli-Gaza conflict is the deadliest conflict since Hamas established political control of Gaza in early 2006." The way this is written implies that in all the conflicts in the world since Hamas established control, the Israeli-Gaza conflict is the 'deadliest'. Even among mid-level conflicts, the total casualties in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict numbers are relatively small. [1] If someone wants to correct this mistake, they will need to rewrite the sentence. Tundrabuggy (talk) 17:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
IMO the statement makes sense in the context given by the title. It's the deadliest conflict in the Gaza region since Hamas took power. It can be clarified easily by explicitly adding the words "in the region" or "in the Gaza region"Chikamatsu (talk) 17:51, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

It continues to be bad from the git-go. Please try to read this neutrally and ask yourself if it is accurate:

"The 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, part of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict, began on 27 December 2008 (11:30 a.m. local time; 9:30 a.m. UTC)[28] when the Israel Defense Forces launched what they codenamed Operation Cast Lead (Hebrew: מבצע עופרת יצוקה‎, Mivtza Oferet Yetzuka), targeting the members and infrastructure of Gaza's governing party, Hamas.[29][30][31][32] "

I will strip it for accuracy and clarity:

The 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, part of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict, began on 27 December 2008 when the Israel Defense Forces launched what they codenamed Operation Cast Lead (Hebrew: מבצע עופרת יצוקה‎, Mivtza Oferet Yetzuka), targeting the members and infrastructure of Gaza's governing party, Hamas.[29][30][31][32] "

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Tundrabuggy (talk) 05:01, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Breakdown

Latest comment: 15 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

The current breakdown of the lead, paragraph by paragraph, is like this:

  • Basic intro containing involved parties, and the operation cast lead.
  • Giving background info, and demands made by both parties.
  • First few days of the conflict
  • Israeli airstrikes and naval operations
  • Hamas rocket attacks
  • Ground offensive
  • End to the conflict/ceasefire
  • International reactions and humanitarian situation

In my opinion certain changes need to be made. The lead needs to be condensed down to 4 paragraphs. And it should include an additional half a sentence to one sentence on each of the following topics, which are are discussed in detail in the article:

  • Humanitarian crisis
  • Legal perspectives
  • Civilian protests
  • Media campaign/coverage

Thoughts?VR talk 01:06, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Legal perspectives, that's bull. (Like the bumper sticker I saw today: Cows come and go, but bull lasts forever.) Lawyers never resolved wars and they never will. In a war, the objective of both sides is to get the other to surrender. We don't need lawyers' hot air. A background section would be nice, one that mentions what Hamas was doing the preceding 360 days of the year, what their rocket range is, the numbers, and maybe mention of the fact that the Israeli nuke plant is in range. Imagine if one of those indiscriminate rockets hit the power plant? THEN you'd have bit of a "humanitarian crisis" on your hands, no? and it wouldn't be only the Jews. But then as Mullah Rafsanjani, former President of Iran, said once at Friday prayers, "We can destroy Israel with one nuclear bomb --- Yes, Israel will retaliate. But the Muslim world is so big, it can absorb the losses." Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:23, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Please calm down, and reconsider all of your points. A legal section is already present, and should be indicated briefly in the lead, whether you and I agree with the points raised or not. There is already a background section, and the background has already been covered in the lead. It is true you'd have a humanitarian crisis if (God forbid) a rocket hit a nuclear plant. However, that hasn't happened, nor is this possibility as widely reported as the existing humanitarian crisis. Finally, random comments about nukes by Iranian politicians don't belong in the article, and most certainly not in the lead.VR talk 03:31, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the casualty numbers from the lead, as they are already in the infobox.VR talk 05:01, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Background info. Can we also include some of Israel's military action against Gaza since, say 2001? As stated now, it gives the impression that this conflict is a one-sided affair...

If perhaps, we could include that since 2001(or well before then) actions have been taken by the two parties involve in this war?

I agree with the factual number of rockets(from whatever source) but in a lead is not so much about what information is given, but when.

It should look something like this..."Since 2001, Hamas and Israel have take unilateral military actions against one another. Hamas has fired well over 7000 rockets into Israel while the Gaza Strip has been the target of Israeli military excursions" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.144.80.151 (talk) 06:12, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Some notes, reposted from the main page.

Latest comment: 15 years ago9 comments3 people in discussion

(1) 'This is the deadliest conflict since Hamas won the Palestinian legislative election in 2006.'

This is wrong for all sorts of reasons. The deadliest conflict in the world? The deadliest conflict between the two. Well, yes. But 'deadliest' is a superlative, implying a series of conflicts: Israel killed 830 odd Gazans by individual missile strikes and targeted assasinations from 2006 to 2007. That was an ongoing conflict culminating in the invasion now underway, and that was, so far, more deadly. This one is certainly more destructive. Whatever, it is just an ugly sentence, adds nothing to the text, and pads the lead with dull, pointless prose. I suggest it be considered for removal. Nishidani (talk) 14:50, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

My bad, I tried to take out all the adjectives in front of Hamas and must have messed up the already messed-up phrasing. I agree and removed "deadliest conflict" as we have figures in graph three that illustrate that. RomaC (talk) 14:55, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

(2) We read.'A six-month truce between Hamas and Israel ended on 19 December 2008. Hamas blamed Israel for not lifting the Gaza Strip blockade, and Israel blamed Hamas for increased rocket fire directed at southern Israeli towns and communities.[21]' ref.21 reads:

'Humanitarian aid. Hamas blamed Israel for the end of the ceasefire on Friday, saying it had not respected its terms, including the lifting of the blockade under which little more than humanitarian aid has been allowed into Gaza'.

Our text limits this to the blockade. The source says the blockade lifting was one of the terms of the truce, among others which Israel, according to Hamas, had not respected. The nuance is important.

We need also an article on the terms of the truce brokered between Hamas and Israel. Anyone?Nishidani (talk) 15:00, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

(3) 'Hamas-operated security installations' is repeated twice. The 'Hamas-operated' is a rather unsubtle attempt to condition the reader's negative associations of Hamas with some shady illegal terrorist group, and is in any case pleonastic. All of the administration of Gaza is operated by Hamas, since that body was elected to govern ther territory by the Gazan population in free elections. We know that, and harping on 'Hamas-operated' is rather ridiculous. All areas hit by Qassams are 'Israel-operated', but we don't say that, as we shouldn't qualify the infrastructure hit as 'Hamas-operated'. The adjective therefore is redundant, and insinuates an image of irregularity where there was none. Nishidani (talk) 15:12, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

(4)'Hamas had decreased the amount of rocket and mortar attacks during the cease-fire period, and has renewed them, increasing the distance of attacks to as far away as 40 kilometres (25 mi) from the Gaza border.'

- Who's the clunk responsible for this? Each sentence should be sourced precisely. This one isn't. 'Decreased the amount'? is question begging. Hamas has consistently asserted, rightly or wrongly, that it withheld rocket and mortar attacks when the truce was made, and those that did occur either were launched by non-Hamas elements, or by Hamas as a retaliation for an Israeli violation of that truce. 'Decrease' is editorializing. It suspended mortar and rocket attacks after the truce came into effect. It 'resumed' them (we require a precise time line for the truce period, with Israeli and Hamas shootings in chronological order). In any case, the passage is an editorial construction, since it is not directly sourced, and no evidence therefore exists, until 'decreased the amount' type of phrasing is given for the passage. If no RS source is available to underline the text, it should be elided as padding.Nishidani (talk) 15:24, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok I changed it.VR talk 00:41, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

(5)'The IDF started massing infantry and armor units near the Gaza border and engaged in an active blockade of Gaza.[41).

If you read the source, the China News note 41, there is no mention of an 'active blockade', which thus emerges as another editorial intrusion. In any case, this is also false since Gaza had been actively blockaded long before the military assault began. The words therefore should be removed. Indeed the source should be substituted, as marginal. Many of the previous sources note the massing of infantry units. There is, as per Occam's razor, no need to multiply sources uselessly.Nishidani (talk) 15:32, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

(6)'On 3 January 2009, a ground invasion began, with mechanised infantry, armor, and artillery units, supported by armed helicopters, entering Gaza.'

As per notes 42, and 43, that should be 'entering the Gaza Strip'. The city of Gaza, like Khan Younis, has not yet been breeched, but these places are surrounded. One must distinguish Gaza the town, from Gaza the strip, invariably. Otherwise one misdescribes the battle by confusing an area with a point in that area.Nishidani (talk) 15:37, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

(7) The quote from Livni (that the humanitarian situation in Gaza is "completely as it should be".) is unsourced, either by the preceding note 51 or the following note 52. In the interi,m, the wording has toned her comment down. Livni said Israel keeps the 'humanitarian situation (crisis) as it should be', she didn't note that 'oh, this is how it happens to be, and we approve'). She said on the 2 Jan.'"In this operation, Israel distinguishes (between) the war against terror, against Hamas members, from the civilian population. In doing so, we keep the humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip completely as it should be."

That is the precise wording, 'we keep' has dropped out, and the source has been lost. An RS for the statement is James Hider, Hamas rockets threaten Israel's N-plan, The Australian January 03, 2009 Nishidani (talk) 15:47, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Israel's "stated aim" now "evolving"

Latest comment: 15 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The current introduction reads: "Israel's stated objectives in this conflict are to end Palestinian rocket fire and prevent the rearming of Hamas, but not necessarily to topple the regime.[22]"

But -- what a surprise! -- according to Time Magazine, Israel's aim is now "evolving":

First off, Israel has no interest in stopping its military mission until its primary aims have been achieved, and those aims appear to be evolving from simply stopping rocket fire into southern Israel into what Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni calls "changing the equation" in Gaza — i.e., hobbling Hamas to the point that it loses control of Gaza. The Israelis believe they have Hamas on the ropes, and may be in no hurry to back off from trying to deal a mortal blow to the radical group. That means their diplomatic posture will be to seek more time for their military operation and then to hold out for truce terms that essentially codify a military disabling of Hamas. [43]

Any enthusiasm for including this new information in the introduction? LOL! NonZionist (talk) 22:39, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

It seems that Livni may have contradicted Olmert. However, it is more likely, that Israel's objectives are adapting to the situation at hand. I'll move it elsewhere. Thanks for the heads up.VR talk 23:20, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

"Gaza Massacre"

Latest comment: 15 years ago16 comments5 people in discussion

Following on Darwish's links in the Discussion talk section above we have to consider balancing the Israeli name "Cast Lead" given in the lead with "Gaza Massacre." Reasoning: Whether we agree or not, we must represent Arab as well as Israeli naming of this event; increasing number of news hits and Arab leaders are using the term, including Bashar al-Assad and Mahmoud Abbas; we have the many Arabic links above and Arabic and other international media's English-language portals using the term[2][3][4][5][6]. Suggest the lead be adjusted as such:

The 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict is part of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which began on 27 December 2008 (11:30 a.m. local time; 9:30 a.m. UTC)[18] when the Israel Defense Forces launched a series of airstrikes targeting the members and infrastructure of Gaza's governing party, Hamas.[19][20][21] The Israeli codename for the (conflict? assault? air, sea and ground offensive?) is Operation Cast Lead (Hebrew: מבצע עופרת יצוקה‎, Mivtza Oferet Yetzuka), while Palestinians and many in the Arab world are calling it The Gaza Massacre (Arabic: مجزرة غزة).

I can't see how we can (or should) avoid calling Cast Lead an "assault," or "attack" or "invasion," ~maybe "offensive" will work? Mindful of the opposition from some editors I've provided several possibilities. Comments? RomaC (talk) 02:07, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Your proposed paragraph is fair enough. Thank you. --Darwish07 (talk) 03:38, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Is there a source that says that Arabs or others are calling it "Gaza massacre"? For example, does a source say "many in the Arab world refer to the events as مجزرة غزة)? Even if the source is in Arabic it is acceptable. But is there such a source?VR talk 04:26, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi VR. I've just found those source by googling - FoxNews: Arab leaders call for unity during this "terrible Massacare", Reuters: Gulf leaders tell Israel to stop "Gaza Massacre". Note: those double quotes aren't mine. Ismail Haniya, Hamas leader, called it a massacre in several places. I also remember the Arab representatives calling it a Massacre/Holocaust during the UN debates and appeals to stop the Israeli attacks by UN power. I'll search harder for references about my last two statements. Thank you --Darwish07 (talk) 04:59, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Ok, one final question: what will you say when a user accuses this of being POV?VR talk 05:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
I'll reply: how it's a POV if we're balancing the Israeli POV with the Arabic POV to make the lead NPOV ;-) ? --Darwish07 (talk) 05:18, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
(Chuckles). In that case, I support adding it in the way you've described. But before you do that, can you give your thoughts to the first point at Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict/Lead#NPOV? Thanks.VR talk 05:21, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Of course. Thanks for the care. I've mentioned them in the top of the current "Discussion" section but I'll put them in a list format under this new NPOV section for clearer view. See you there --Darwish07 (talk) 05:39, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


Nope. The article at this point is about the general conflict. Gazans are only referring to the first day as the "massacre". --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 08:16, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I would support placing the bolded term later in the article, in the section on the first day. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 08:19, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes the first day was called the "Black Saturday Massacre," in the sources the ongoing conflict is the "Gaza Massacre." RomaC (talk) 08:55, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with this change. In order to introduce this term we need to find sources which say exactly “The Gaza Massacre” or at least “Gaza Massacre” to demonstrate that this is a widely used term. The capitalization is important if we are to enter it as an official name for this conflict. So far, Wikipedia is the only English language news source I can find which does this. Wikipedia should not be the source to introduce and popularize certain terms.
Darwish, you quoted the Reuters Article as saying “Gulf leaders tell Israel to stop "Gaza Massacre"” when in fact it says “Gulf leaders tell Israel to end Gaza "massacres."” You added capitalization, slightly changed the word, and moved the quotation. Similarly, in the FoxNews article the word “massacre” is never capitalized except for the all-caps headline. I will AGF but surely you understand that the manner in which you changed the quotes bolsters your view when the articles really don’t support your claim.
As far as I can tell the word “massacre” is being used in a descriptive way; not as a name for this conflict. I’m sure this is not the first time (and sadly not the last time) Arab leaders have called Israeli activity in the Gaza strip a “massacre.” Do we need to start calling them Gaza Massacre I, Gaza Massacre II, etc.? Of course the word "massacre" can be quoted within the article but bolding "Gaza Massacre" is inappropriate.
The term “Black Saturday Massacre” seems legit if we have RS. Andi Hofer 12:20, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Andi, on this Gulf News page[7] the style of the news site is not to use Caps in their headlines, but they use "Gaza Massacre" (with Caps) to head their section on coverage of the event[8]. Anyway, do you really want to dispute whether this descriptive term is used in Palestine and the Arab world to apply to the current events in Gaza on the basis of where quotation marks or capitalization are applied? RomaC (talk) 13:04, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
In the #Discussion section above I just showed a sample media from different Arab countries and the Islamic conference calling this operation Gazza Massacre. It's called a Massacre allover the place in the Arab and Palestinian world news agencies. Most of them post the news under a section named "Gazza Massacre". It's how the operation is called over there and it's important to balance the Israeli name in the same paragraph. --Darwish07 (talk) 18:06, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm thankful for assuming AGF about the title, no really I didn't notice it. But anyway as mentioned on #Discussion, all the Arabic references call it "Gazza massacre", except that in Arabic grammar the world "the" can not be added to the term "Gazza Massacre". You can see the links I posted and their translation, and if you have some doubts about this translation accuracy, give Google translate a shot. --Darwish07 (talk) 18:32, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Per above, I am adding {{refimprove}} and {{pov}} to the article. Please don't remove until the sourcing is resolved. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:58, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Stated aims

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Are discussed in the article, and in the lead. They do not belong in the first sentence and paragraph. Please do not restore without discussion.--Cerejota (talk) 03:39, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Civilian casualties

Latest comment: 15 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

Some are removing any mention of civilian casualties and infrastructure damage in Gaza, while leaving mention of casualties and damage in Israel. Both pieces of information are relevant extremely well-sourced and belong in the lead (and should be expanded in the article). Their removal is not productive, and further removals should be started to be viewed as contentious and unproductive editing. --Cerejota (talk) 03:43, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Casualties should be mentioned in the infobox, not lead. Infrastructure damage should only be described in general terms, not specific details.VR talk 04:41, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Previous discussions have supported having a concise casualty count in the lead. RomaC (talk) 05:21, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
They have not RomaC. You have pushed for it and people have reverted you. Almost everyone agrees that for reasons of space and ease of updating, they belong in the infobox. Besides, the lead is a joke, people are treating it like the sandbox. --Cerejota (talk) 06:06, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Agreed the lead is unfortunately being treated like a sandbox. But Cerejota you are wrong writing: "almost everyone agrees that for reasons of space and ease of updating, they (casualties) belong in the infobox" -- Actually, that's what you argued, but more editors supported having casualties in the lead. See the discussions here: Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict/Archive_5#Casualties_in_the_Lead, where the consensus was for having concise Palestinian and Israeli casualties in the lead. I assume you forgot about this discussion, it's been a busy few days -- so, I would appreciate it if you could please strikeout your assertion above? Cheers! RomaC (talk) 06:43, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

NPOV

Latest comment: 15 years ago9 comments4 people in discussion

Are there any NPOV concerns about the lead?VR talk 04:43, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Just a note: the reasons for Israeli and Hamas' actions are discussed in the *second* paragraph of the lead. There is no point in repeating them elsewhere in the lead.VR talk 04:44, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
I think the title is a wimp out and violates Wiki policy, the lead then adds the term that Israel is using for the conflict, so (as above) I strongly believe we should also add a term the Palestinians and Arab world are using.
As for details, I don't think "...instituting a naval blockade" is accurate because before the events, Israel already had blockaded the Gaza coast. Would say "...tightening their naval blockade" instead. Similarly in graph five we have "engaged in an active blockade" -- I dunno what that means.
Specifically about POV, the lead makes no mention of the grossly disproportionate fighting strengths of the sides in this "conflict." That is ridiculous but English Wiki has this bias and as long as some editors can use their numbers to bulldoze over policy we will continue to have this bias. RomaC (talk) 05:34, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Add what we agreed on above (second Cerejota proposal) that "Gaza got hit in its schools, universities, infrastructure and homes"; balancing the statement "These [Hamas] attacks have resulted in civilian casualties and damage to infrastructure, including a school".
  • "Israel claims that all of those are Hamas targets", we'll add the Hams POV that those sayings are not true.
  • As above discussions, we'll add that the Arab world call the attacks the "Gazza Massacre"; balancing "Operation Cast Lead" and the silly "poem" thing.
  • We'll mention the worst and most important part of this war, a.k.a the Gaza Humanitarian Crisis. We'll say it's described by the UN as a "human dignity crisis" and by the red cross as "intolerable full blown humanitarian crisis". We'll balance this by Tzipi Livni quotes that the "humanitarian situation is as it should be".

--Darwish07 (talk) 06:22, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

First of all, once consensus on talk is reached, you should take the initiative and add things yourself too.
  • No. We shouldn't mention what was hit by either Israel nor Hamas. I know its important, but the lead, as it stands, is really big. If the lead already mentions something, it should be removed.
  • Very briefly, go ahead.
  • Isn't that info already there? Secondly, I'd suggest that if you want to to increase info somewhere, find another place to cut back info. This way, if we're not reducing the size of the lead, at least we're not increasing it either.
Cheers, VR talk 06:34, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Oh, I didn't know I can make the edit right now, I thought we'll try to reach consensus on the whole Lead first. I'll add what have been agreed to so far. Thanks. --Darwish07 (talk) 06:47, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Wile it is completely possible that the Arabic speaking world is using the term "Gaza Massacre" to refer to these events, isn't it clear that they are calling it that in order to rally support for their side? I know the discussion for the inclusion of Gaza Massacre is above, but really this boils down to POV and while you may be quoting Gaza Massacre from a source, that source is rife with bias. If you are going to argue that we must present it, because thats what people are calling it, then I believe that the words "terrorist organization" should be mentioned in regards to Hamas in the lead because contrary to popular belief, they are not just another political party but in fact a terrorist entity. The lead falsly implies to the casual reader that Hamas are the rightful poitical leaders being oppressed, not a terrorist faction with a history of suicide bombings and random acts of violence, that took over Gaza in a bloody coup. (Oh and if you want a souce, wikipedia it.)

It's absolutely known that all the Arabic and Israeli sources are biased. They are all mentioned with "As said by X". The lead says "it's called in Arab as ..." not that it is a massacre. --Darwish07 (talk) 20:27, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
As heated as my last paragraph was, i am serious about the incorporation of a form of the word terrorst at least once when discussing Hamas in the lead. It is fact and it is what many sources do call it. Thucydidies (talk) 16:12, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
WP:TERRORIST --Darwish07 (talk) 20:27, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

POV problems with the first paragraph

Latest comment: 15 years ago9 comments4 people in discussion

Besides for "massacre" which should be removed as unsourced (explained above), the paragraph states that:

Israel Defense Forces launched a series of airstrikes targeting the members and infrastructure of Gaza's governing party, Hamas

There should be mention of the intention to remove weapons and to destroy launching pads. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 08:26, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

In the second paragraph, there is a mention of "prevention of the re-arming of Hamas". The only reason why "targetting members and infrastructure of Gaza's governing party, Hamas" is there is because some users objected to having "targeting Gaza" there, arguing that Israeli air strikes was against Hamas, not Gaza. The exact targets are mentioned in the third paragraph, which include more than just military targets.VR talk 15:14, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
I understand, I'll add it to the first paragraph now. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:00, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
How's the "massacre" term was unsourced? Cited references mentioned being called a massacre: in:
I've also showed on #Discussion a sample of Arabic references. So what's the point? This statement is clearly and powerfully sourced. --Darwish07 (talk) 04:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
And here was the cited references: [44][45][46][47][48]
And No, the cited sources referred to the whole conflict as "massacre", not only the first day as your edit summary claim. --Darwish07 (talk) 04:48, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Your edit has been reserved. User:Cerejota said while reversing your edit that "sources clearly, unambiguously support the statement that "The conflict has been called the Gaza Massacre". --Darwish07 (talk) 04:34, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Since this is an ongoing conflict(the current 'conflict' in itself) who's to say that this won't become a holocaust?(i say this from the Arab world's POV) so i think it's too early to termed this conflict alas "The Seven Days War"...
As a wikipedia editor, it's not your call to judge what others say about an event or whether they are right or wrong about it. Any, yes. If everyone there will move from "massacre" to "holocaust" we'll say they use the term "holocaust". It's not our problem. --Darwish07 (talk) 05:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The statement seems forceful, specially at the end of the paragraph...let users read about the casualties and let them call this conflict as they see fit.

Forceful or not, it's not WP editors call to judge it anyway. It's massively called so in the Palestenian and Arab world, so the fact will be reported. --Darwish07 (talk) 05:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I do understand, that because the name giving to this 'operation' by the Israelis(Operation Cast Lead) is included as well, it would seem appropriate to also include how the Arab world or the Palestinians themselves would classified. If that's the case, then i would support the inclusion of that last statement(with obvious reservations).

You will be setting a precedent here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cryptonio (talk • contribs) 05:20, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

POV problems with the second paragraph

Latest comment: 15 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion

The current version is badly written and misleading. The paragraph starts off with a "truce" which we know nothing about and just begs a whole bunch of questions which are not answered until a later section. What truce? Why truce? When truce? Truce over what? But that in of itself would not bother me if not for the fact that it's misleading and grossly in favor of the Palestinian POV. The paragraph implies that the rockets only began after the truce ended. That's not true. They were firing rockets since 2001 and Israel had plans of initiating this action long before the truce ended (all sourced, of course). In addition, unlike the paragraph's implications, there was nothing called "cross-border fighting" after the truce ended and before Dec 27 airstrikes began. Hamas fired over a 100 rockets within that span while Israel shot once at Hamas members Israel claims was about to fire a rocket. No reliable source refers to these intermittent days as "cross-border fighting". --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 08:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

  DoneI addressed some of the concerns in his talk page, and added a reliable source that specifically refers to "cross-border fighting", Tipping Point - After years of rocket attacks, Israel finally says, ‘Enough!’ - The Baltimore Jewish Times, not that we cannot say something like without quoting in a lede, mind you. --Cerejota (talk) 13:08, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
NOT DONE. The Baltimore Jewish Times is small unnotable newspaper. I didn't even bother checking the provided source. The fact that you were only able to find the quote in this one little newspaper after there are tons of newsprint on this issue is itself proof of the term's lack of notability.
Besides, it's a red herring. The real problems with the article, that fact that it's misleading in it's nature has yet to be addressed. The POV of the lede is shameful. I am adding {{pov}} to the article. Please do not remove until these issues are resolved.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
  • The job of the lead is to briefly provide the background. Unfortunately, the lead can't provide the Hamas-Israel conflict since 2001 (the date you keep going back to) without being too big. In fact, as the lead stands right now, it is already too big by WP:LEAD standards, making further enlargements correspond to a decrease in article quality.VR talk 01:52, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Brewcrewer is absolutely incorrect: I just provided verification that the term is *not* POV as he alleges (it can be from a small non-notable publication, but the operative here is that it is Zionist and pro-Israeli - smaller sources are reliable for verification, not as principal sources) TIMELINE-Israeli-Hamas violence since truce ended. That actual sourcing, used in the lede is from a Reuters (very notable!) article that states: "Dec. 18 - Hamas declares the end of the Egyptian-brokered ceasefire, which expires the next day with a surge of cross-border fighting.". This is the source used to support the statement int he paragraph. To further address the POV concerns, this article was republished, intact, by Haaretz TIMELINE / Israeli-Hamas violence since truce ended. Brewcrewer: this is not the first time you present objections that do not bear fruit when confronted with the evidence. Please be more careful and read the sources before making claims like these. Just because you assert somethign does it make it true: you have to provide evidence. --Cerejota (talk) 05:04, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The ref/link that is supposed to give information on the truce, is not working(at least not for me) its supposed to be from the New York Times [9]

In my opinion, it wouldn't matter what or who ended the truce unless we are pointing fingers at two sides that HAVE broken truces before and in my POV have been behaving like "irrational" animals.

I am sure, that users will be able to find more detailed information right here in Wiki about the truce, but the ref/link must be fixed ASAP.

This[10] from the BBC is dated June 18, 2008 and should take care of some of these concerns.

Now, if I'm reading and understanding Brewcrewer correctly, he seems to prefer the second paragraph to start the way that it was, something along the lines of "Since 2001, Hamas has been misbehaving"...if thats the case, that his prerogative, but it would tilt the current balance that exists as the paragraph stands.

Since this is an ongoing 'conflict', the explanation of the truce is to only give 'foot' to the latest resumption of violence, it is why then, the title of this page is "2008-2009 Israel-Palestinian conflict".

A user, who feels the need to read about this story in Wiki, is most likely to ask the question "why are they fighting this time". Now, he/she should know they've been entertaining the world for some time now, so they will need to know that there was a 'truce' in place, that had been abide by for the most part by both parties, and that both sides had reasons to break that truce. and so the paragraph should state the reasons these two 'parties' are giving to resume their fighting to another level.

In my humble opinion, the only ones who should read past the second paragraph(as it stands now) should be us. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cryptonio (talk • contribs) 04:28, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The last line of lead re Israel (per Livni)'s position that there was no crisis

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Lacked sourcing, and I have provided three, since there is some dissonance in the various reports as to exactly what Livni did say. Anyone checking the refs can make up his own mind. I have also adjusted the tense, since Livni said that on I January, but Israel's position has changed.Nishidani (talk) 19:03, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Refs

  1. ^ Amos Harel. "Most Hamas bases destroyed in 4 minutes". Haaretz. Retrieved December 28, 2008. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
  2. ^ Yaakov Katz. "A year's intel gathering yields 'alpha hits'". Jerusalem Post. Retrieved 28 December 2008. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
  3. ^ ElKhodary, Taghreed (December 28, 2008). "Israeli Attacks in Gaza Strip Continue for Second Day". New York Times. Archived from the original on December 30, 2008. Retrieved December 30, 2008. {{cite web}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
  4. ^ a b "Israeli jets target Gaza tunnels". BBC news. December 28, 2008. Retrieved December 28, 2008.
  5. ^ Cite error: The named reference aljazeera_mosque_tv was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  6. ^ Israel strikes key Hamas offices
  7. ^ "Hamas military labs in Islamic university bombed".
  8. ^ Roni Sofer. "IDF says hit Hamas' arms development site". ynetnews. Retrieved 29 December 2008. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
  9. ^ "Israel braced for Hamas response". BBC. 2009-1-02. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  10. ^ "Israel pounds Gaza for fourth day". London, UK: BBC. 2008-12-30. Retrieved 2009-01-14.
  11. ^ "Israel vows war on Hamas in Gaza". BBC. December 30, 2008. Archived from the original on December 30, 2008. Retrieved December 30, 2008.
  12. ^ Harel, Amos (December 27, 2008). "ANALYSIS / IAF strike on Gaza is Israel's version of 'shock and awe'". Ha’aretz. Retrieved December 27, 2008.
  13. ^ Timeline Israeli-Hamas violence since truce ended Ha'aretz, by Reuters
  14. ^ At least 205 killed as Israeli pounds Gaza, Alarabiya, 27 December 2008
  15. ^ "No let-up in Israeli strikes in Gaza". {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
  16. ^ a b BARZAK, IBRAHIM (2009-01-04). "Fear, shortages for civilians caught in Gaza fight". Associated Press. Retrieved 2009-01-05. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  17. ^ a b GAZZAR, BRENDA (2009-01-04). "Gaza civilians tell 'Post' their city has 'gone backward 50 years'". Jerusalem Post. Retrieved 2009-01-05.
  18. ^ a b MAX, ALEX (2009-01-01). "Israel targets Gaza mosques used by Hamas". Associated Press. Retrieved 2009-01-05.
  19. ^ a b Kareem, Abdel (2009-01-05). "For Trapped Gazans, Few Options for Safety". Washington Post. Retrieved 2009-01-05.
  20. ^ a b El-Khodary, Taghreed. "Gaza hospital fills with gravely hurt civilians". San Francisco Chronicle - New York Times. pp. A 3. Retrieved 2009-01-05.
  21. ^ a b McCarthy, Rory (2 January 2009). "Israeli warplanes destroy Gaza houses and mosque as air strikes continue". The Guardian. Retrieved 2009-01-05. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  22. ^ a b NISSENBAUM, DION (2009-01-01). "Israel vows to pummel Hamas but treat Gaza civilians 'with silk gloves'". McClatchy Newspapers. Retrieved 2009-01-05. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  23. ^ "Gaza relief boat damaged in encounter with Israeli vessel - CNN.com". cnn.com. Retrieved 2008-12-30.
  24. ^ "Pro-Palestinian activists say Israel Navy fired on protest boat off Gaza shore". Haaretz/Reuters. 2008-12-30. Retrieved 2008-12-30.
  25. ^ "IAF and IN Strike Additional Hamas Targets, Operation Continues". Israel: Israel Defense Forces. 2009-01-01. Retrieved 2009-01-04.
  26. ^ "מבצע "עופרת יצוקה": תקיפת חיל הים ברצועת עזה: כך זה נראה" (in Hebrew). Ha’aretz. 2008-12-29. Retrieved 2009-01-04.
  27. ^ Black, Ian (December 27, 2008). "Israel's hammer blow in Gaza". Guardian. Retrieved December 27, 2008.
  28. ^ Curiel, Ilana (December 27, 2008). "Man killed in rocket strike". ynetnews. Retrieved December 27, 2008.
  29. ^ "Rockets land east of Ashdod". Ynetnews. December 28, 2008. Retrieved December 28, 2008.
  30. ^ "Rockets reach Beersheba, cause damage". YNET. 2008-12-30. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
  31. ^ "Israel reinforces troops, ground offensive possible". China Daily. December 28, 2008. Retrieved December 28, 2008.
  32. ^ "Israel Confirms Ground Invasion Has Started". MSNBC. 2009-01-03. Retrieved 2009-01-04.
  33. ^ BARZAK, IBRAHIM (2009-01-04). "Israeli ground troops invade Gaza to halt rockets". Associated Press. Retrieved 2009-01-04. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  34. ^ a b Israel and Hamas under pressure for Gaza aid truce Reuters 2008-12-30
  35. ^ a b Witte, Griff (2008-12-31). "Israel Presses on With Gaza Strikes". Jerusalem, IL: Washington Post. Retrieved 2009-01-04.
  36. ^ Hamas is hoping for an IDF ground operation in Gaza, Haaretz. December 30, 2008.
  37. ^ "Barak: "War to bitter end" against Hamas". Jerusalem, IL: International Herald Tribune. The Associated Press. 2008-12-29.
  38. ^ Israeli assault on Gaza Strip draws widespread condemnation
  39. ^ Protests Against Israel's Gaza Bombardment Spread
  40. ^ "'Humanitarian aid flow in our interest'". Jerusalem Post. January 1, 2009. Retrieved January 3, 2009.
  41. ^ "Gaza mourns as strikes continue". Al-Jazeera. January 1, 2009. Retrieved January 3, 2009.
  42. ^ a b "Gaza Humanitarian Situation Report - 2 January 2009 as of 14:30". UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. 2009-1-2. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2009-1-2. Retrieved 2009-1-2. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate=, |date=, and |archivedate= (help)
  43. ^ Bruce Crumley (2009-01-06). "European Peace Efforts on Gaza Hit Roadblocks". Time. Retrieved 2009-01-06.
  44. ^ "Arab leaders call for unity during this "terrible Massacare"". Foxnews.com. Associated Press. 2008-12-31. Archived from the original on 2009-1-7. Retrieved 2009-1-7. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |archivedate= (help)
  45. ^ "Gulf leaders tell Israel to stop Gaza "massacres"". Reuters. Reuters. 2008-12-30. Archived from the original on 2009-1-7. Retrieved 2009-1-7. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |archivedate= (help)
  46. ^ "[[Organisation of the Islamic Conference]] denounces Massacre in Gaza". Arab News. 2008-12-28. Archived from the original on 2009-1-7. Retrieved 2009-1-7. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |archivedate= (help); URL–wikilink conflict (help)
  47. ^ "Israeli Arabs in Sakhnin protest Gaza massacre". International Middle East Media Center. 2009-1-3. Archived from the original on 2009-1-7. Retrieved 2009-1-7. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate=, |date=, and |archivedate= (help)
  48. ^ Libya calling the operation a "horrible massacre" - "United Nations Security Council 6060th meeting (Click on the page S/PV.6060 record for transcript)". United Nations Security Council. 2008-12-31. Retrieved 2009-1-7. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

Have condemned either vs. Have either condemned

Latest comment: 15 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

I propose changing the following sentence:

International reactions to the conflict have either condemned the Israeli operation, Hamas' attacks, or both.

To:

International reactions to the conflict have condemned either the Israeli operation, Hamas' attacks, or both.

I think that's semantically more accurate. Because "the Israeli operation", "Hamas' attacks", and "both" are all supposed to be targets of international condemnation, respectively. As written, the sentence might be read to apply it only to the first of these three. Not a super big deal, but can't hurt.

Balonkey (talk) 06:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed on the grammar but why "Israeli operation" and Hamas attacks"? Is this NPOV? Are there more sources actually saying "___ condemned the Israeli operation" or saying "___ condemned the Israeli attacks"? In the sources provided, no. In the sources, the terms "Israeli assault," Israeli attacks" and "Israeli bombardment" and "Israeli strikes" and Israeli raids" are used repeatedly, but "Israeli operation" appears just once. RomaC (talk) 07:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
That's a good point. Interesting. Balonkey (talk) 08:00, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

First sentence has weasel words?

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

"The 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, part of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict, began on 27 December 2008 (11:30 a.m. local time; 9:30 a.m. UTC)[27] when the Israel Defense Forces launched what they codenamed Operation Cast Lead..." "What"? A letter-writing campaign? Propose "what" be changed to "an offensive," So: "The 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, part of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict, began on 27 December 2008 (11:30 a.m. local time; 9:30 a.m. UTC)[27] when the Israel Defense Forces launched an offensive codenamed Operation Cast Lead..." This says what "what" was. RomaC (talk) 07:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

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