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ACCOUNT CLOSED
{{Archive box|[[/Archive 1]]}}
[[File:Smiling Christmas Tree.svg|thumb|left|'''Merry Christmas''', [[User:History2007|History2007]] ([[User talk:History2007|talk]]) 20:11, 24 December 2009 (UTC)]]
==For consultation from time to time==
Thank you for [[Wikipedia:Cleaning up vandalism|reverting vandalism on Wikipedia]]! <br>Be sure to put warning tags on the vandal's user talk page (such as <code>{{[[Template:test|subst:test]]}}</code>, <code>{{[[Template:Test2|subst:test2]]}}</code>, <code>{{[[Template:Test3|subst:test3]]}}</code>, <code>{{[[Template:Test4|subst:test4]]}}</code>). Add each of these tags on the vandal's talk page, in sequential order, after each instance of vandalism. Adding warnings to the talk page assists administrators in determining whether or not the user should be blocked. If the user continues to vandalize pages after you add the <code>{{[[Template:Test4|subst:test4]]}}</code> tag, request administrator assistance at [[Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism|Request for Intervention]]. Again, thank you for helping to make Wikipedia better. -- [[User:Cat Whisperer|Cat Whisperer]] 05:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
==
Hello! I noticed your vandalism reversion on [[Catholicism]], and when I traced back to the user, I found the same user had vandalized several more pages which had gone undetected. Using warning tags can help to spot this kind of repeated vandalism. Thanks! -- [[User:Cat Whisperer|Cat Whisperer]] 05:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
==Merge discussion for [[Cross Keys]]==
[[Image:Information.svg|25px]] An article that you have been involved in editing, [[Cross Keys]], has been proposed for a [[Help:Merging and moving pages|merge]] with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going {{ #if:Talk:Cross Keys#Merger proposal |[[Talk:Cross Keys#Merger proposal|here]]|to the article and clicking on the (Discuss) link at the top of the article}}, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 05:55, 15 February 2012 (UTC) <!-- Template:mergenote -->
No matter what objections of a theoretical nature anyone may raise, it is a ''fact'' that the Holy See is recognized as a subject of international law by other subjects. They hold diplomatic relations not with Vatican City State but with the Holy See. If the other subjects of international law recognize the Holy See as a subject of international law, then it ''is'' a subject of international law.
== Proposed deletion of [[Latin Mass]] ==
The Holy See's sovereignty has been recognized explicitly in many international agreements and is particularly emphasized in article 2 of the Lateran Treaty of 11 February 1929, in which "Italy recognizes the sovereignty of the Holy See in the international field as an inherent attribute of its nature, in conformity with its tradition and the requirements of its mission in the world."
[[File:Ambox warning yellow.svg|left|link=|48px|]]
The article [[Latin Mass]] has been [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|proposed for deletion]]. The proposed deletion notice added to the article should explain why.
The Holy See was recognized as a person in international law long before the signing of the Lateran Treaty, which first established the Vatican City State. The very fact that the Holy See (which then had no territorial base) was one of the two parties to the negotiating and signing of the Lateran Treaty was based on its capacity to act relevantly in the international domain.
While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be [[WP:DEL#REASON|deleted for any of several reasons]].
Even when the Pope was sovereign of the Papal States in central Italy, he had a recognized spiritual sovereignty as well as a territorial sovereignty. It was not on account of the latter that he held precedence over the Emperor and the other rulers of nations, that his envoys were received with the highest honours, that the papal court was considered one of the most coveted diplomatic posts. And after the complete loss of temporal power in the nineteenth century, the Pope continued to exercise the active and passive right of legation, as well as being called upon as arbiter and mediator by states for the settlement of international conflicts.
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your [[Help:edit summary|edit summary]] or on [[Talk:Latin Mass|the article's talk page]].
It is thus false to say that the Holy See "has always had temporal sovereignty over at least some land, even if now it is rather small." You ask: "Should it not simply be regarded as a rather unusual form of state?" Perhaps indeed it (the Holy See or the Catholic Church, which are closely connected but not identical) should. Provided that this expression is not mistakenly understood to imply that its sovereignty and personality are in some way dependent on also possessing a 44-hectare statelet with which nobody would be interested in establishing diplomatic relations or giving it weight in international relations.
Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|proposed deletion process]], but other [[Wikipedia:deletion process|deletion process]]es exist. In particular, the [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|speedy deletion]] process can result in deletion without discussion, and [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion|articles for deletion]] allows discussion to reach [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify -->
This is at least how I see the situation of the Holy See in international affairs.
== Nomination for merging of [[Template:Politics of Vatican City]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px|alt=|link=]][[Template:Politics of Vatican City]] has been [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion|nominated for merging]] with [[Template:Politics of the Holy See]]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2018 September 15#Template:Politics of Vatican City|the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page]]. Thank you.<!--Template:Tfmnotice--> [[User:Chicbyaccident|Chicbyaccident]] ([[User talk:Chicbyaccident|talk]]) 12:42, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
== [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|Proposed deletion]] of [[:File:Lipsius simplex.jpg]] ==
[[File:Ambox warning yellow.svg|left|link=|alt=Notice|48px|]]
The file [[:File:Lipsius simplex.jpg]] has been [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|proposed for deletion]] because of the following concern:
Having the word "Pope" in the title of the whole series of alleged predecessors of Benedict XVI has clear advantages that make it unlikely that a proposal to change the practice would be accepted by the Wikipedia community. It is a practice that concerns not only the Popes: I think there is only one Elizabeth II who merits an article, yet the article on her is headed "Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom", in line with the heading of the articles on her predecessors. Only in the sixth century did the title "Pope" begin to mean exclusively the Bishop of Rome (see [[Pope#The title Pope]]); it is simpler to keep the title for all members of the alleged series, rather than to pick some arbitrary point at which to begin to use the designation.
<blockquote>unused, low-res, no obvious use</blockquote>
While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be [[WP:DEL#REASON|deleted for any of several reasons]].
== 203.57.68.13 and vandalism ==
I recently got this IP unblocked. Thought it was now exclusively assigned to me. But apparently not. (Who checks their own contribs when they haven't contrib'ed?) I've asked admin Stephen, who did the original block, to block it again. Assuming that doesn't screw up this login, we'll see how that turns out.--[[User:PaulxSA|PaulxSA]] 03:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated files}} notice, but please explain why in your [[Help:edit summary|edit summary]] or on [[File talk:Lipsius simplex.jpg|the file's talk page]].
== All that talk ==
about consensus, working changes out in talk, pffft! You have certainly ceded any claim to the moral high ground in your latest unilateral Eucharist edits. But I won't just revert. [[User:Eschoir|Eschoir]] 20:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Please consider addressing the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated files}} will stop the [[Wikipedia:Proposed deletion|proposed deletion process]], but other [[Wikipedia:deletion process|deletion process]]es exist. In particular, the [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|speedy deletion]] process can result in deletion without discussion, and [[Wikipedia:Files for discussion|files for discussion]] allows discussion to reach [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify -->
So you really don't like tables, or is there a problem with this table you'd like to share? [[User:Eschoir|Eschoir]] 16:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
<span style="color:red;font-weight:bold;">This bot DID NOT nominate any file(s) for deletion; please refer to the [[Help:Page history|page history]] of each individual file for details.</span> Thanks, [[User:FastilyBot|FastilyBot]] ([[User talk:FastilyBot|talk]]) 01:02, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
== Edmund the Martyr ==
Lima, could you possibly pop over to [[Edmund the Martyr]], take a look over the article and talk page, and see what you reckon to the claim being pushed by one user that he still ranks as a patron of England. So far as I can see he certainly not regarded as such by the Church of England, and neither is he listed (at all) in the National Calendar for England and Wales of the Catholic Church. [[User:David Underdown|David Underdown]] 12:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
:Thank you Lima, I only wish I had thought of bringing this to your notice previously, and just maybe we would have avoided some of the fruitless wrangling of the past few months. Such is life. [[User:David Underdown|David Underdown]] 14:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
== Nomination for merging of [[Template:Politics of Vatican City]] ==
I came to thank for your comments and I see David Underdown tipped you off to the dispute. Well done to both of you. --[[User:Secisek|SECisek]] 21:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
[[File:Information.svg|30px|alt=|link=]][[Template:Politics of Vatican City]] has been [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion|nominated for merging]] with [[Template:Vatican City sidebar]]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2019 November 27#Template:Politics of Vatican City|the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page]]. Thank you.<!--Template:Tfmnotice--> [[User:PPEMES|PPEMES]] ([[User talk:PPEMES|talk]]) 01:07, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
== "Mystical Body of Christ" listed at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion|Redirects for discussion]] ==
[[File:Information.svg|30px]]
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect [[:Mystical Body of Christ]]. The discussion will occur at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 8#Mystical Body of Christ]] until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> [[User:Veverve|Veverve]] ([[User talk:Veverve|talk]]) 16:42, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
== Nomination of [[:Old Roman Catholic Church in North America]] for deletion ==
<div class="afd-notice">
<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">[[File:Ambox warning orange.svg|48px|alt=|link=]]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article '''[[:Old Roman Catholic Church in North America]]''' is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to [[Wikipedia:List of policies and guidelines|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]] or whether it should be [[Wikipedia:Deletion policy|deleted]].
The article will be discussed at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Old Roman Catholic Church in North America]] until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
:Edmund the Martyr is again under the attck of an single purpose account. Will you weigh in one more time with a Roman Catholic POV. He says the article is biased by an Anglican POV of Edmund (?!?), what ever that is. -- [[User:Secisek|SECisek]] 19:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.
Thank you again for your oppinion. I will leave it alone for a day per your wise request. Believe me, I would LOVE to never comment on that article again. -- [[User:Secisek|SECisek]] 21:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
<!-- Template:Afd notice --></div> [[User:Karma1998|Karma1998]] ([[User talk:Karma1998|talk]]) 14:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
:This seems to be flaring up again, could you possibly expand on why being a (secondary) patron would necessarily entail a listing on the current English calendar. The user is again claiming that canon law means that once a patron, always a patron, unless a specific declaration to the contrary is made (no to me dropping him from the calendar would seem to fit that), but I'm no expert even in Anglican canon law. [[User:David Underdown|David Underdown]] ([[User talk:David Underdown|talk]]) 11:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
::Thanks, seems reasonable to me, whether it will onvince all parties remains to be seen. [[User:David Underdown|David Underdown]] ([[User talk:David Underdown|talk]]) 13:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Again it seems reasonable, the idea of region appears to be intended to apply to a variety of ideas, nation states, sub areas such as perhaps [[Catalonia]] and so on. I don't see that as a problem. [[User:David Underdown|David Underdown]] ([[User talk:David Underdown|talk]]) 14:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
::::Well I do sometimes wish I had never got invovled myself, I did think he was a little self contradictory on the calendar, since at the top of the webpage it says it received ''recognitio'' in 2000 and is published on an official webpage of the English and Welsh Bishops' Conference, and made that point (amongst others) in my latest reply. Fortunately many years as a [[field hokcey umpire]] have schooled me in keeping my counsel in the face of provocation. [[User:David Underdown|David Underdown]] ([[User talk:David Underdown|talk]]) 15:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
== about catholicism ==
Dear friend, I will be honest with you. I know that Jesus will prevail one day, same as justice will. This means that sooner or later Catholic church together with a pope of Rome, anti-christ described in Bible will end up burning in hell forever. Thats the truth, you can hide, you can delete sections or the whole articles. But you cant hide the truth. The truth is that Jesus is Lord, and that Satan is looser. All who follow Satan, including pope of Rome will end up in hell. That is truth. I hope that sooner or later, you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. As well as that you quit this false worship system. May Lord Jesus bless you, and give you salvation.
User ipernar<small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:193.198.130.158|193.198.130.158]] ([[User talk:193.198.130.158|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/193.198.130.158|contribs]]) </small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
:How nice and friendly. [[User:Pastordavid|Pastordavid]] ([[User talk:Pastordavid|talk]]) 13:50, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
:: It is exaclty comments like this that continue to prove to me over and over again that protestants are not Christians and wouldn't know Jesus if came up and slapped them in the face. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/125.201.186.103|125.201.186.103]] ([[User talk:125.201.186.103|talk]]) 09:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
==Saint Otteran==
Hi there! I would like to expand your article on [[Saint Otteran]] of Iona based on two sources I found. One of them, however, gives his year of death as c. 563 instead of 548. Could you please tell me your source? Maybe we can get out which one seems more likely. Thanks. [[User:Daranios|Daranios]] ([[User talk:Daranios|talk]]) 19:22, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
== Bacchae Back-off ==
I may havve a solution. I tracked down the original source of the Harris and bacchae quotoes: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eucharist&diff=69929861&oldid=68499885 back in August 06. It is from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:68.58.71.152
I left him a message to defend his edits, which you can see by going to his talk page. If he doesn't defend the quote, I surely won't. Give it a couple of days, then maybe it can be deleted entirely. [[User:Eschoir|Eschoir]] ([[User talk:Eschoir|talk]]) 01:07, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
== cease fire ==
I have copied the areas of contentnion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Eschoir/Sandbox
What say we work there for a couple of weeks on what is contested content and leave off public bickering?[[User:Eschoir|Eschoir]] ([[User talk:Eschoir|talk]]) 03:58, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
:What hope is there that private discussion would produce anything other than bickering? It is better to work towards an agreement where we know others are observing our attitudes and words. I continue to hope that, in that public forum, others will intervene and express their views on the questions we are discussing. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima|talk]]) 13:47, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
== NOR Request for arbitration ==
Because of your participation in discussions relating to the "PSTS" model in the [[WP:NOR|No original research]] article, I am notifying you that a [[WP:RFA|request for arbitration]] has been opened [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#No_Original_Research here]. I invite you to provide a statement encouraging the Arbcom to review this matter, so that we can settle it once and for all. [[User:COGDEN|''CO<small>GDEN</small>'']] 00:03, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
:What is Cogden's thesis? Finding it is too difficult to consider intervening. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 04:43, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
== Historical critical Christian apologist ==
I have placed an article in my sandbox for a few days that I invite you to read - I think that you will not only like it, but mayagree that it is a starting place for an ending to the history of eucharist article.
It's "six eucharists" is at least good for another table.
Look quickly, it has copyright issues, and I will take it down soon.
[[User:Eschoir|Eschoir]] ([[User talk:Eschoir|talk]]) 04:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
== Jesus eating with women ==
Thanks for the congratulations. I'm doing the "eating with women" thing from memory. I'll check my sources. In the mean time, please feel free to delete the reference to women. While you're at it, I'm afraid that this whole section doesn't give proper respect to the important place of food in Jesus' ministry. If you could add some more to give a non-NT-literate reader some context, that would be helpful. [[User:Leadwind|Leadwind]] ([[User talk:Leadwind|talk]]) 06:27, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
:Good point on the hostile-act scene. I'll delete the reference. If you could feed me any good information on the importance of meals and food in Jesus' ministry, I'd appreciate it. [[User:Leadwind|Leadwind]] ([[User talk:Leadwind|talk]]) 06:53, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
== Greek and italics ==
Sorry about the reverts; when looking at a diff it's hard to see the difference between "..." and '<nowiki>'...'</nowiki>'. But it is true that italics aren't used with the Greek alphabet by professional typesetters. Computer fonts generally don't distinguish between true italics and so-called [[oblique type]] forms (true italics are based on different letter shapes derived from handwriting, while oblique forms are just slanted versions of the roman forms). Oblique forms of writing systems that don't historically have italics (like Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, Chinese, etc.) just look silly and should really be avoided. Seeing anything other than the Latin and Cyrillic alphabets written in oblique is one of my pet peeves, I'm afraid. —[[User:Angr|'''An''']][[User talk:Angr|''gr'']] <sup>[[User:Angr/If|If you've written a quality article...]]</sup> 09:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
==Bible version==
Hi, Lima. I wanted to thank you for your recent revision of the article [[Good Friday Prayer]]. The streamlining and addition of references is a good improvement. I noticed that you removed the KJV switch from the bibleverse templates. I understand your reason for doing so: leaving the choice of which Bible version up to the reader. I just wanted to give you some imput as to my reason for putting it there. The way the template is setup now, if no specific version is indicated, the link brings the user to a long list of versions to chose from, in a number of different languages. To get to the actual verse referenced, she or he has to first read through the list and select a version. This adds an extra step, is time consuming, and some users who are not familiar with the different versions available may get discouraged and simply give up. However, if a version is specified, the user is brought directly to the verse(s) in question; then, if they prefer a different translation, they can select it from the pulldown menu. This way the user still has a choice, and the process of getting to a translation is faster and easier. It seems reasonable to me that more users will be satisfied with this simpler procedure. What do you think? [[User:MishaPan|MishaPan]] ([[User talk:MishaPan|talk]]) 20:05, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
The sourcecode to get the bibleverse template to point to NRSV is "131" (where "KJV" was previously). Unfortunately, this points to a different Website which doesn't give the option of looking at different versions. [[User:MishaPan|MishaPan]] ([[User talk:MishaPan|talk]]) 22:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
== Wikiquette ==
Lima, I've logged a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#user:Lima Wikiquette alert] regarding your altering my cited information on Baptism without comment. The alert also refers to other issues we've had between us as context. Wikiquette alerts are for getting outside opinions on difficulties between editors. I look forward to settling this with you cordially. [[User:Leadwind|Leadwind]] 03:20, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Here is Lima altering two cited sentences and leaving the citations in place. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baptism&diff=175447518&oldid=175438607] He's implying that the RS says what it didn't say. He came in about an hour after I had added the citations and altered them. This is just the last, clearest example of his campaign of opposition against me. He apparently defends a pro-Catholic POV. Meanwhile, I'm consulting reliable sources on religious topics ([[purgatory]], [[baptism]], [[early Christianity]], etc.). I've got a POV (who doesn't?), but I'm happy to use RSs and simply want Lima to do the same. I want to use several RSs to fashion a standard definition of purgatory; Lima wants to quote the catechism. I can sing a long song of grievances, but let's start with him altering cited information. This has got to be a faux pas, and I hope someone can tell him so, please. [[User:Leadwind|Leadwind]] 03:09, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
: I'm inclined to agree with {{user|Leadwind}} on this, given that {{user|Lima}} is misinterpreting the citations for a non-balanced viewpoint. Other editors seem to agree with this stance as well. [[User:Seicer| '''<span style="color: #B33C1A; font: Trebuchet MS; font-size: 10px;">Seicer</span>''']] <small>([[User talk:Seicer|talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Seicer|contribs]])</small> 03:22, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
::For what I did wrong, I apologize. When I edited that text, it seemed to me that the statements (which are not between inverted commas) attributed to the source could not have been exact. Does the source say simply: "Jesus did not baptize"? Surely the author of the source knew of {{bibleverse||John|4:1-2|KJV}}, which says it was reported that Jesus baptized (not personally, but his disciples did). In any case, I did not change what was attributed to the source, which is what Leadwind accuses me of: I, in a way that I recognize was wrong, gave an interpretation of the apparent contradiction between the 20th-century source and the 1st-century source to which I drew attention. I thought that infelicities in what I wrote would be ironed out by other editors. With regard to the second change from "doctrine about baptism" to "forms of baptism", I thought this was necessary, because the examples that followed were, I thought, only about the manner in which baptism was administered (the text itself uses the word "form"), unrelated to doctrine (what baptism is, what it does). Does the source really speak of the variable ''forms'' of early Christian baptism as variable ''doctrine''? (In view of the touchiness shown, I have since then [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Eucharist#.22No_last_supper_in_John.22 refrained] from correcting a more obviously false attribution of incorrect information to a source.) These two changes, done perhaps rather too hurriedly, followed the other change that I made and that I thought was made necessary by Leadwind's insertion of the word "immerse" as if it were the only meaning of the word "βαπτίζω": the article itself states that the meaning of this word was broader, as Leadwind too indicated when he reported his source as saying that the usual early Christian method of baptism was by pouring water over the upper part of the body of someone standing in water. This is not baptism by immersion as usually understood. Now that I have explained myself, I will add that I hope the Wikipedia community ''will'' reprimand me for what I did. Certain people, who have now got together [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Eschoir&diff=175655140&oldid=175391062 here] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Leadwind&diff=175659316&oldid=175423958 here,] have been making me spend too much time on Wikipedia, and I would love a pretext to retire. [[User:Lima|Lima]] 05:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
'''Please stop, you're creepin' people out.''' [[User:Eschoir|Eschoir]] ([[User talk:Eschoir|talk]]) 02:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Don't get me started on Lima - he has reverted [[Eucharist]] 13 times without saying what he challenges among the new material, if anything, deletes sourced content and substitutes distorted paraphrase, constantly argues a position using primary sources, won't answer yes or no questions in Talk, defends a pro-Western Catholic POV, doesn't understand basic editing like usage of [sic] in text, has tried to have me banned first as a sockpuppet, then as a sockpuppeteer, tried outing my private Identity, and generally wastes a lot of time dealing with him. [[User:Eschoir|Eschoir]] 05:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
:Anyone who views the corresponding Talk page can see that I have indeed been pressing Eschoir to discuss our differences of opinion. [[User:Lima|Lima]] 05:41, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
If there's any question as to whether Lima's errors were innocent, I'm happy to provide context to show that they weren't. But I don't want to jam this page with my litany of wrongs. I'll happily respond to direct questions. [[User:Leadwind|Leadwind]] ([[User talk:Leadwind|talk]]) 00:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Leadwind has asked me to comment here-- and I I can substantiate that Lima and I have very different points of view about what a NPOV, Verifiable article looks like. Our specific dispute has been over the article [[Purgatory]]. I made major rewrites to the article, but Lima [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Purgatory&diff=171896611&oldid=171867668 reverted them wholesale]. One two other occiasions, I've tried to make similar changes, only to find that my changes were wholesale reverted-- leading me to withdraw from the page until there's the edit-warring situation resolves itself.
I can't go so far as to say Lima's POV concerns are completely without merit, but the net effect of interacting with him led me to seek other places on the project where I could be more useful without having to fight so hard to improve things. Whether Lima's behavior is problematic or whether my changes were problematic is, of course, something neither he nor I can objectively comment on-- but if others have found him to be a little POV-pushy in other context, perhaps he should be looked at just a tad, so see if ya can help him stop. --[[User:Alecmconroy|Alecmconroy]] ([[User talk:Alecmconroy|talk]]) 07:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
:Now that Alec's brough it up, let me jump in and say that Lima's repeated pattern on Purgatory is to make life unpleasant for editors that he disagrees with until they leave. That's what Alec did, twice. I've also seen it with other editors. He's been in mediation twice with me, and we've done at least 4 RfCs. The page has had the POV tag since February, and Lima has been the most active and unpleasant in attempts to keep others from fixing the page. Like I said, making cited information wrong is just the latest and clearest transgression of Lima's. I was hoping that a word from an objective third party would help straighten him out, so I set up this alert. [[User:Leadwind|Leadwind]] ([[User talk:Leadwind|talk]]) 08:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
<blockquote>
Please stop engaging in [[WP:OR|original research]]. Please stop making [[WP:NPA|uncivil and snarky comments]], especially as editor notes in article space. Also, please do not make edits to [[WP:POINT|prove a point]]. I implore you to deal with me [[WP:CIVIL|politely]] and to work productively towards article improvement. If there's a content conflict we cannot resolve, we can take it to dispute resolution. However, the disruptive and rude attitude you've taken is not acceptable. [[User:Vassyana|Vassyana]] 14:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC) [Best not to respond to this objection to counter-arguments being inserted in "editor notes in article space" (<nowiki><!-- ... --></nowiki>) to balance the arguments inserted in the same editor notes by the objector. On alleged Original Research, see below.]
</blockquote><blockquote>
[[WP:NOR|Original research is prohibited]]. You cannot use primary sources, like the Bible, to argue against secondary sources. You cannot advance your own position or form your own interpretation. You must cite reliable sources to put forward such arguments and discussions. This has been repeatedly explained to you. '''Please''' take the time to read and understand our content policies. [[User:Vassyana|Vassyana]] 03:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)</blockquote>
[[User:Eschoir|Eschoir]] ([[User talk:Eschoir|talk]]) 22:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
:Eschoir quoted Vassyana. Vassyana had been the mediator between Lima and me when we were in mediation. V has since taken a wikibreak and drastically limited their participation, partly because of obstructionist editors on WP. --Leadwind [[Special:Contributions/70.102.136.132|70.102.136.132]] ([[User talk:70.102.136.132|talk]]) 00:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
With two editors on record trying to get Lima to stop using OR, and two on record trying to get him to stop being snarky, would we be well-served to bump this up to an RfC on Lima? Maybe we wait to see how this Wikiquette alert turns out first? [[User:Leadwind|Leadwind]] ([[User talk:Leadwind|talk]]) 00:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Lima got to be too much for me for a little while. I developed an aversion to Wiki in recent days because I might have to deal with him. He is an attention seeking missile who would be on "ignore" in a chat room. He has affirmed that he reverted edits even though he did not challenge the content, which he agreed with, to get me to "discuss" them with him, yet he won't respond to any questions put to him when the invitation to discuss is put to him. I've read his work and mine togeter and it sucks because it is the product of edit warring. His attitude is real drama queen, he is inconsistant, and can't just go about his work and entertain a neutral POV. HE is going to drive away more editors than he brings in. Just my opinion.
[[User:Eschoir|Eschoir]] ([[User talk:Eschoir|talk]]) 04:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
What now? It seems as though we've said our respective pieces. I hope that the Wikiquette alert leads to some experienced third party sharing their perspective on these conflicts for our benefit. [[User:Leadwind|Leadwind]] ([[User talk:Leadwind|talk]]) 14:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
''Request for third-party opinion:'' The respective involved parties have said their pieces. Could some uninvolved editors please review the comments below and offer their opinions? (And could someone please attach this request to the Work in Progress tag?) [[User:Leadwind|Leadwind]] ([[User talk:Leadwind|talk]]) 01:03, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Plese note the shambles that certain areas of [[History of the Eucharist]] are in because of Lima's persistant arguing with sources. He inserts {{fact|December 2007}}to engage in war of attrition then argues with the source given. He has even demanded a source for a purely literary allusion, and provided a footnote. [[User:Eschoir|Eschoir]] ([[User talk:Eschoir|talk]]) 04:40, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
:I would have accepted as a welcome gift a decision approving this denunciation of me by Leadwind (whose accuracy in reporting his chosen "reliable sources" is illustrated [[Talk:Eucharist#.22No_last_supper_in_John.22|here]] and [[Talk:Original_sin#Lust|here]] and whose absence, together with that of his chief opponent, from the article whose discussion seems to have turned him against me seems to have allowed peaceful agreement on its contents) and Eschoir, with [[Talk:Eucharist#Do_this_in_remembrance|whose views]] on what constitutes original research I disagree and whose edits [[Talk:History_of_the_Eucharist#Perhaps_best_to_let_Eschoir_have_his_way|I have decided]] to leave to others to attend to. (Fortunately, Leadwind has corrected several of them, and Eschoir has now concentrated his combative instincts on [[Free Republic]], where he is already well known.) [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 10:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
==Redirects==
I've notice that you've made a number of edits to remove redirects in articles. May I call your attention to the [[WP:Redirect#Do not change links to redirects that are not broken|editing guideline]] on that issue? <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.0.42.61|24.0.42.61]] ([[User talk:24.0.42.61|talk]]) 21:38, 6 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Thanks for drawing this to my attention. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 05:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
== English versions of the Nicene Creed ==
Hi, you have reverted my 1962 additions three times. This is in breach of wikipedia rules. Please undo your last change and we will discuss on the talk page. [[Special:Contributions/217.171.129.71|217.171.129.71]] ([[User talk:217.171.129.71|talk]]) 12:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
== Vatican City ==
For what it's worth, I am in the process of trying to update things for the new Vatican City work group of the European Microstates project. I personally agree that there is a real question whether documents issued by the Pope qualify as real Vatican City articles, but an official document by an official head of state generally does. Also, every article tagged so far has fallen within the [[:Category:Vatican City]] or one of its subcategories. For the purposes of organization, the new work group should have some idea what articles are placed there. If the banner is not merited, then reasonably the categorization of the article or of the parent category should be changed. I believe that ultimately all the articles which clearly related to the Papal States, the Vatican's predecessor, should fall within a more focused group. The fact that the head of state of the Vatican, the Pope, was also head of state of some precursor states, helps support that belief as well, as those states were the predecssors of the existing Vatican City. In a sense, I do think that the Vatican work group maybe will become, in effect, a papacy work group. Given the rather huge scope of the existing Catholicism project, having a place for a bit more focused effort on the Papacy, its history, people, places, things, documents, etc., probably wouldn't be a bad thing. I do acknowledge that this is probably the only state on the planet that has had the person performing as its head of state exist in that position before the state itself did, which is why I personally think that the history of the papacy should also, in a sense, be included as a part of the city of Vatican City. Also, clearly, the "prehistory" of the buildings and locations in Vatican City before the foundation of same is also directly relevant to the Vatican City workgroup. I do acknowledge that I am still in the process of determining the tagging, however, and am more than willing to discuss it. [[User:John Carter|John Carter]] ([[User talk:John Carter|talk]]) 14:27, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
:Good question, and one particularly relevant to the papal encyclicals and curia documents. I honestly don't have an answer to the question which is necessarily certain. My guess would be yes, considering that religion is, effectively, almost the sole real business of the state in question? Also, if, as I think might work best, the Vatican group becomes the papacy group as well, it would probably be useful to the Catholicism project to help focus some attention on that subject in particular. There's also a proposed Catholicism in the UK subproject at the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals]] page, and the Catholicism project might benefit from a bit more focused attention in some key areas. If it were to develop that the Vatican group also become the effective papal group, then the "official statements" of the pope would probably qualify for inclusion. I think it makes sense, but that is a point I am substantially less certain about. In the cases of documents, if you were to want to remove them, I don't know that anyone would necessarily notice. [[User:John Carter|John Carter]] ([[User talk:John Carter|talk]]) 16:58, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
::You know more about the internal workings of the Vatican relative to the Holy See than I do, so I acknowledge that the two are probably separate in a real sense, although I'm not sure how technical the difference might be. Part of the reason for creating the new work group was to ensure that that state is covered by some group, because I'm in the process of making such groups for all countries and most major overseas territories which don't yet have dedicated groups for them. I do know that the two entities are generally not separated in the public perception, however, and actually hope in time to make the new work group a dual subproject between European Microstates and Catholicism. Once that's done, if it does happen, then the articles might getted tagged again, but unless the articles are specifically included in other subcats of the Vatican City category I don't think the banner will be added again. If they are, and I don't recognize that, the bot which might be doing the tagging for all the European Microstates goups when I'm done might replace it. [[User:John Carter|John Carter]] ([[User talk:John Carter|talk]]) 17:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
:::You're right. I was thinking from the "Vatican" perspective rather than the more neutral one. My apologies. [[User:John Carter|John Carter]] ([[User talk:John Carter|talk]]) 18:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
::::I noticed the currrent cause of dispute seems to be that [[:Category:Holy See]] is currently a subcat of [[:Category:Vatican City]]. As that seems to be at best dubioous, particularly regarding eras like the Avignon papacy, I'm taking the liberty of removing that category. [[User:John Carter|John Carter]] ([[User talk:John Carter|talk]]) 18:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
== [[History of early Christianity]] ==
This article was originally titled [[Origins of Christianity]] and, based on your Talk Page note from August 2007, I gather you were pretty frustrated and exasperated with some of the other editors of that page. Well, it's been 6 months and the article has changed significantly due to my having expanded and renamed it. Please take another look at it and tell me what you think. I would like to address the concerns that you raised back in August but I would need your help.
--[[User:Richardshusr|Richard]] ([[User talk:Richardshusr|talk]]) 01:59, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
:I see that I then resolved to let the article be, in view of difficulties I had encountered. I have by now forgotten those difficulties. Did I consider that, in the form the text had taken, it was at least minimally acceptable? I don't remember. There are ambiguous and potentially misleading statements in it, as a very rapid reading seems to show: "modern scholars have questioned" might be taken to mean that there is a negative consensus on the matter among modern scholars as a whole (is there? the footnote does not seem to say so). "The Essenes practiced baptism" - an initiation rite, as "baptism" is usually understood, or just a repeated purification ritual such as is practised by observant Jews and Moslems still today? And I do think that it is forcing things for the "Appellation" section to present the name "Christian" as (certainly) a more recent name than "Nazarene", on the basis of a mention of "Nazarene" in a part of the story of Saul/Paul that is in fact much ''later'' than the mention of the word "Christian", and on the basis also of mentions of Jesus (not of his followers) as connected with Nazareth. But such matters aren't enough to stir me to intervene; and I suppose I did believe I had good reason for resolving to stay aloof from the article. However, I will now put the article on my watchlist and see what you intend to do to improve it.
:A further thought. Everything in the following is either repetition or ambiguous/misleading: "The disciples were first called 'Christians' (Greek Χριστιανός), meaning '"household" or "partisans" of Christ', in Antioch. Ignatius of Antioch was the first Christian to use the label in self-reference. The earliest recorded use of the term Christianity (Greek Χριστιανισμός) is also by Ignatius of Antioch, around 100 AD." Isn't the explanation "in essence meaning a 'Messianist'", given just before, sufficient (and better - where does the idea of "household" come from?)? Why suppose that only non-Christians used the word "Christian" in the sixty years of its existence before Ignatius unprecedently, as is here supposed, adopted it in self-reference? I wonder when (if ever) there was a first self-reference by early Christians to themselves as "Nazarenes". If "Christianity", the abstract noun, did not appear before the start of the second century, what does that prove about the use of "Christian"? After all, I think that, even at the start of the twenty-first century, "Nazarenity" has yet to appear. But this again is not enough to tempt me to edit the article. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 09:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
== Losar ==
[[Losar]] is currenting happening, how may I ensure that it is flagged as a current event? Is there a News Wiki article that this Wikipedia article can interwiki? How may I progress this? Is there anything else you recommend?<br />
Blessings in the [[mindstream]]<br />
<font color="Green">[[User:B9 hummingbird hovering|B9 hummingbird hovering]]</font><sup> ([[User talk:B9 hummingbird hovering|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/B9 hummingbird hovering|contribs]])</sup> 06:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
== Baptism ==
On [[Baptism]], was it you who added "according to," deleted a reference to Jesus not baptizing, and used the gospel of John to suggest that he did? I just fixed all that. [[User:Leadwind|Leadwind]] ([[User talk:Leadwind|talk]]) 15:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
:Why, yes, indeed it [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baptism&diff=182266630&oldid=182217246 was you] who deleted sourced information. And after the Wikiquette alert and everything. I'm disappointed. [[User:Leadwind|Leadwind]] ([[User talk:Leadwind|talk]]) 15:54, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
::Merely quoting a statement made three times in the Gospel of John and adding "according to" to a contrary statement for which a modern writer is given as source is perhaps not such a serious crime as pictured here. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 09:02, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
== [[Roman Catholic Church]] ==
Dear Lima, I was told you were a knowledgable person in the Roman Catholic area and I am contacting you to ask if you could go to this page and take a look at it to see if you think it meets FA criteria. Please leave your comments on the FA leave a message page. Thanks! [[User:NancyHeise|NancyHeise]] ([[User talk:NancyHeise|talk]]) 11:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
== Roman Catholic Church in Great Britain ==
Lima, could you possibly look at the discussions on [[Category talk:Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain]], [[User talk:Benkenobi18]] and my talkpage on this subject. My (outisder's) understanding has been that to most intents and purposes England and Wales forms one national church, and scotland another. Benkenobi is arguing that Great Britain is the true level. [[User:David Underdown|David Underdown]] ([[User talk:David Underdown|talk]]) 12:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
:Thank you for looking. It's posibly moot now, in so far as the other user seems (unfortunately) to have left Wikipedia over this. Anyway the main bone of contention was that the way he was trying to organise the categories (and articles) implied that there was a "real" British hierarchy, whereas, as I understand it England and Wales forms one hierarchy, and Scotland another (if nothing else they were restored at different times). Each has their own Bishops' Conference, and each deals separately with the Vatican, there is no combined British body for Catholicism, although the Nuncio is of course accredited at the UK level, since it is the United Kingdom which maintains diplomatic relations, not Scotland, England or Wales (and quite how that fits in with the all-Ireland organisation of the Church as against the Irish state, I don't know). On this basis he was categorising Dioceses at a British level, as well as at the Scottish and English & Welsh levels (which purely on the way Wikipedia organises categories was a nonsense). There are however two organisations, analogous to Dicoeses, the [[Apostolic Exarchate for Ukrainians in Great Britain]] and the British Military Ordinariate ([[Bishopric of the Forces]]) which do have a jurisdiction at the Great Britain (or wider) level, though both are part fothe English and Welsh conference. Does that make the issue any clearer? [[User:David Underdown|David Underdown]] ([[User talk:David Underdown|talk]]) 09:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
==[[Roman Catholic Church]]==
I want you to know that I copied and pasted your response to my request onto both the talk page of [[Roman Catholic Church]] and the leave comments section of the Featured Article tag on that page. I feel that another editor is being obstructionist and I wanted them to see that you have experienced the same thing. Something should be done so Wikipedia can have decent factual pages on Catholic subjects without this kind of harassment. [[User:NancyHeise|NancyHeise]] ([[User talk:NancyHeise|talk]]) 01:52, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
== Vassyana ==
Please do not alter text in such a way that it incorrectly represents the source or contradicts reliably sourced statements using unreliable sources, as you did at [[History of early Christianity]].[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_early_Christianity&diff=191126951&oldid=191122266][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_early_Christianity&diff=191485609&oldid=191455823] Unreliable sources and your personal opinion do not trump reliable sources. As you can see by the revisions I made after reverting your changes, I am perfectly willing to accommodate your concerns. However, you have been advised repeatedly about altering and disputing sourced passages based on your personal opinion, primary sources and unreliable references. Please do not express your opinion through such disruptive and destructive changes, but rather use appropriate tags and raise your concerns on the talk page. As I mentioned, I'm flexible and perfectly willing to address your concerns, but please raise them in an appropriate manner. [[User:Vassyana|Vassyana]] ([[User talk:Vassyana|talk]]) 12:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
:It is not a [[WP:NPA|personal attack]] to warn you about disruptive edits, particularly when you have been advised in the past by numerous editors about such actions. The warning was also accompanied by statements that I acknowledged your concerns and have attempted to address them, and indicating I am flexible in addressing concerns raised in an appropriate manner. Regardless, your sarcastically titled post to [[Talk:History of Christianity]] is utterly inappropriate.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AHistory_of_early_Christianity&diff=191665774&oldid=191628713] Please refrain from such antagonism and dramatics, as they are disruptive and uncivil. [[User:Vassyana|Vassyana]] ([[User talk:Vassyana|talk]]) 17:04, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
::Lima, are you messing around with sourced text again? Don't you remember the Wikiquette alert where people told you it was wrong to do that? [[User:Leadwind|Leadwind]] ([[User talk:Leadwind|talk]]) 18:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Please do not insert references in such a way as to disrupt the sourcing of material, as you did at [[History of early Christianity]].[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_early_Christianity&diff=192826080&oldid=192822532] I have noted the Bible verse in-text to prevent the "breaking" of citation. [[User:Vassyana|Vassyana]] ([[User talk:Vassyana|talk]]) 18:03, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I am saddened that you continue with your disruptive approach to editing. You mention it is not original research to use early sources, when partially restoring a change.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_early_Christianity&diff=193211824&oldid=193096060] The problem was your personal commentary placed in the footnote of the original change.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_early_Christianity&diff=192852962&oldid=192841980] Part of the problem is also the disruption to the sourcing of the article. A problem which remains present in your second attempt to insert the information. I placed the biblical reference at the appropriate place in the text, without using a footnote that disrupts the sourcing of the article.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_early_Christianity&diff=193281078&oldid=193213010] The problems with altering sourced text, disrupting citation and original research have been explained to you many times. You have continued to do so in that article, including immediately after being warned. You are leaving me with little choice but to seek community sanction against you for your disruptive practices. I implore you to reconsider and avoid such troublesome behavior. You can be an excellent editor (and I would encourage you to keep editing), but such problematic editing has to end. [[User:Vassyana|Vassyana]] ([[User talk:Vassyana|talk]]) 15:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Once again you have inserted personal commentary and disrupted the referencing of the article.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_early_Christianity&diff=prev&oldid=193304417] Please stop. This disruption is not acceptable at all. [[User:Vassyana|Vassyana]] ([[User talk:Vassyana|talk]]) 17:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
::This issue has been trashed out publicly at [[Talk:History of early Christianity#Apologies to Vassyana]], [[Talk:History of early Christianity#Vassyana's reversions]], and [[Talk:History of early Christianity#removed claim]]. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 09:02, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
==False Attribution?==
your comment on an expanded reference today in [[Early Christianity]] said "has there been another false reference?" please assume good faith: "false reference" suggests malfeasance and not just mistake. but also i can't see any indication in your change that the original reference was false. all you seemed to do was to include quotations that back up the claims already made in the article. [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 15:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
:Sorry for the sharp expression in my edit summary, which I have already corrected; but are you sure there was no indication that the original reference was mistaken (I avoid the word "false")? The original reference said Irenaeus ''opposed'' infant baptism; the text of Irenaeus and the editor's comment on it seem (to me) to show him ''approving'' it. Am I perhaps wrong in my reading? I have left this comment here, not on Tb's page, in order to avoid prolonging the discussion. I should perhaps not have written it even for myself. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 15:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
:: I think that perhaps there are simply divergent opinions about Irenaeus. IIRC he simply didn't address it directly. So the thing to do is to check the Oxford Dict. and its references, and then either discount it or whatnot. Thanks for catching it; I read that paragraph only yesterday and missed what should have jumped out at me as well. I do think that a long discussion of the point is out-of-place in that paragraph. I'll think more and see if I can tighten it after I check the dict. [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 17:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
:::It is good to see that what was so surprisingly attributed to the Dictionary has now been removed. (I mean "attributed" only factually, making no judgement on whether the attribution is correct or not. At most I have implied the possibility of a mistake, but not bad faith. In the concrete case in question I presumed that "Tertullian", not "Irenaeus", must have been what was in the text that I thought might have been misquoted.) [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 05:46, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I have purchased the source to which the amazing statement was attributed. It says exactly what I expected to find in it. Of infant baptism it says: "''Tertullian'' opposed the practice (incidentally witnessing to its existence)". It says: "Irenaeus speaks of Christ as 'giving salvation to those of every age' who are 'regenerated' through Him, and expressly includes 'infants and little children among them." It is quite clear that Irenaeus did not oppose infant baptism: he speaks of it as one of the marvels wrought by Christ. Again, I do not say that it was in bad faith that the editor said that Irenaeus opposed infant baptism. I see it as just another of his mistaken false attributions of statements to sources that he seems to read too hurriedly.
Having gone not only to the expense, but also (because of where I live) the trouble, of purchasing the book, I have set about correcting the editor's misattributions of statements to it, and his misunderstandings of phrases in it (for example, when he took the "standard text of the Gospels" to mean the "canonical gospel", or when he turned "the school in general tended to what might be called, in a rather loose sense, an Adoptionist Christology" into "the school ''promoted'' adoptionism"). I have come across one surprising case, in which the editor put between quotation marks a statement that, at least in that form, is not in the source to which he attributes it: ''"The term 'patriarch' was not assigned to these bishops until the 6th century, but they held patriarchal authority over nearby metropolitans" (Cross, F. L., ed. The Oxford dictionary of the Christian church. New York: Oxford University Press. 2005).'' What the source actually says is: ''Patriarch (ecclesiastical). A title dating from the 6th cent., for the bishops of the five chief sees of Christendom ... Their jurisdiction extended over the adjoining territories''. I refuse to believe that he was trying to pass his statement off as an actual quotation. I prefer to think that he added the quotation marks at a moment in which he had forgotten that what he had written was not an exact quotation, but only his interpretation. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 15:37, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
==Epiousios==
Hi! I have addressed to your concerns about epi and separation on the [[Lord's Prayer]] talkpage. [[User:L'omo del batocio|L'omo del batocio]] ([[User talk:L'omo del batocio|talk]]) 13:16, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
==Pentarchy==
Hi Lima. one last thing about the pentarchy. When the council of trullo had taken place so to confirm the justinian rule about the rule of five, the calcedonian shism had already taken place 100 years ago. As such Justinian referred to the greek orthodox patriarchates which never lost their position through out the existence of byzantine empire, a position maintained under the ottomans through an unbreakable line of patriarchs to our days.
This is a fact beyond any doubt. I will make an entry for this in the section of justinian and please tell me what you think. regards[[User:Melathron|Melathron]] ([[User talk:Melathron|talk]]) 19:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
No its fine. I have just included the Holy See as well. [[User:Melathron|Melathron]] ([[User talk:Melathron|talk]]) 19:43, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Also I have clarified as greek orthodox instead of othodox and with orthodox we can also refer to oriental orthodox ( pre chalcedonian) or Assyrian Orthodox ( nestorian) so to make it accurate as in trulo only the greek orthodox were present the rest claimants were nor recognised[[User:Melathron|Melathron]] ([[User talk:Melathron|talk]]) 19:47, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Lima. All the best[[User:Melathron|Melathron]] ([[User talk:Melathron|talk]]) 20:05, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I will alter it then to Bishops of Rome. I think this is quite accurate and neutral [[User:Melathron|Melathron]] ([[User talk:Melathron|talk]]) 20:17, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
== Chevetogne Abbey & the Russian Catholic Church ==
vHelp. An idiot keeps removing [[Chevetogne Abbey]] from the list of communities of the [[Russian Catholic Church]]. See those two pages as well as [[User_talk:Albania_T#Russian_Orthodox_Cathedral_in_Nice.2C_France]] and my talk page. I'm at wits' end, almost. [[User:InfernoXV|InfernoXV]] ([[User talk:InfernoXV|talk]]) 17:47, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for the vote of confidence and help! [[User:InfernoXV|InfernoXV]] ([[User talk:InfernoXV|talk]]) 05:27, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
== Heads Up ==
Once the current interest in the articles fades with the season, I plan to go over all the articles for Holy Week and for its days, and tighten things up. In particular, we need a "Western Christianity" section; we don't need every rubric from the Roman Rite (esp. not in the main [[Holy Week]] article), etc. But I see little point in doing this now while a thousand fingers are "fixing" things every ten minutes. [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 21:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
== Tridentine Mass ==
Thanks for the help! Any interest on helping me cleanup this article? I was going to start formatting refs and providing more refs.--[[User:Mike Searson|Mike]] - [[User_talk:Mike_Searson|Μολὼν λαβέ]] 14:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
== Not a liturgy ==
"Transubstantiation is not a 'liturgy'"... no kidding! I knew that sentence was broken when I read it,
and for some reason I had a blank on how to fix it. Thanks for the considerable improvement. [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 13:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
== [[Roman Catholic Church]] ==
Dear Lima, I am considering renomination of this article for FA. I would like to know if you see any obvious problems with the article before I resubmit. I am contacting you on the advice of Karanacs who suggested I ask previous commentors to take a look and see if previous FAC issues have been sufficiently addressed. Thanks. [[User:NancyHeise|NancyHeise]] ([[User talk:NancyHeise|talk]]) 18:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
==Looking for Wikipedians for a User Study==
Hello. I am a graduate student in the Department of Computer Science and Engineering at the University of Minnesota. We are conducting research on ways to engage content experts on Wikipedia. Previously, Wikipedia started the Adopt-a-User program to allow new users to get to know seasoned Wikipedia editors. We are interested in learning more about how this type of relationship works. Based on your editing record on Wikipedia, we thought you might be interested in participating. If chosen to participate, you will be compensated for your time. We estimate that most participants will spend an hour (over two weeks on your own time and from your own computer) on the study. To learn more or to sign up contact katpa@cs.umn.edu or [[User:KatherinePanciera/WPMentoring]]. Thanks. [[User:KatherinePanciera|KatherinePanciera]] ([[User talk:KatherinePanciera|talk]]) 02:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
:Sorry for the lack of clarification. You need not have been a member of the Adopt-a-User program, I was just using that as a possible point of reference. All we ask is that you be interested in working with someone to help them learn about Wikipedia. If you're up for this, let me know via email. Thanks again. [[User:KatherinePanciera|KatherinePanciera]] ([[User talk:KatherinePanciera|talk]]) 03:56, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
==Original Sin==
"humanity's state of sin resulting from" as per your undo leaving this quote is a "state". If I'm not mistaken everybody does not commune with each other, which I call 'alienation', that includes being born without self-evident relation to God, or do you assume babies are born Catholics? And our "state" is that each is in a state of death, as Scripture says our life on Earth is about as enduring as a vapor due to our death sentence handed down to each person thanks to the first man. Or is your state different that that? With 2000 years of theology, I would say many of these refinements have to be extrapolated from the teaching fathers throughout the centuries--which is in a state of quandry as Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and the rest of us apparently are not recognized by each other as valid communities of Christian faith, as history shows various Popes, Kings, Queens, and common believers excommunicating each other's rites and orders with classic outcomes of hostilities wrapped up in ecclesiastical high-minded fights that aren't even understood unless you are versed in Latin, Hebrew, and Greek. Now my Jerusalem Bible has introductory notes that state Catholics have TWO words of God, one being Scripture, the other living teachings of the Church of Rome overseen by the Popes. That squares with Jewish idea of TWO authorities: Their Hebrew Bible and the Rabbis' teachings, including footnotes in scripture. The problem as I see it is that the various early counsels of A.D. 100-300 provided a filter to remove heretical teachings and consolidate a common faith delivered one and for all time to the saints. I buy that not zillions of theologies down through out time which have given rise to some of the most oppressive heresies that pretend to be the very oracles of God Almighty, but in fact are nothing but human inventions. As for me I'll stick with my Hebrew and Greek bibles and say no to a preponderance of mythologies and old wives tales. Wikipedia is suppose to NPV. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Bwildasi|Bwildasi]] ([[User talk:Bwildasi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bwildasi|contribs]]) 07:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:I am sorry, I don't understand this message. The fallen ''state'' of humanity (i.e. Original Sin), death, and reproducing certain traits in descendants, can surely, all three, be considered effects of the ''action'' (the Fall, the First Sin) that brought them about. I hope that the modification I have just made of the article avoids whatever problems Bwildasi saw in it. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 10:16, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
== Canonised ==
# If "canonized" is permitted in both styles, then it is certainly not permitted to change it to "canonised", ever, provided the article is consistent.
# I think a more careful review of the article would be necessary to substantiate this; where did the American spellings predominate and why? It's that revision which should be checked. Note carefully that "Retaining the existing variety" does '''not''' permit looking at things from five years ago and trumping all since. The "first major contributor" rule applies "in the early stages of editing the article"; but that's not the case here. What applies here is the first sentence: "If an article has evolved using predominantly one variety, the whole article should conform to that variety." [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 02:41, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
You suggest, "If this rule has been violated, then the violation must be undone - or so I think." but this is exactly the problem. This leads to endless problems. The rule does not say anything about "undoing" anything. It says two things: if the article has been around a long time, and edits have been mostly one way, keep it that way, and, if the article is new, follow the lead of the first disambiguating major contributor. The article has been around a long time, and, AFAICT, has for nearly all that period used American usage. The point here is that Wikipedia stresses ''stability'' and not ''correcting every past mistake''. The point of the policy is to discourage changes of spelling while preserving consistency. [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 16:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
== [[Western Rite Orthodoxy]] ==
I read over the recent changes you made to the above referenced article, and have removed them because they are technically incorrect. While the Byzantine rite eventually became predominate, other rites continued to exist within Orthodoxy for a few more centuries after the Great Schism (by way of example, Balsom calls on all churches to use the rite of Constantinople, indicating that there was still some variety...at least enough to be noticed). It's not a major issue, but I thought you might like to know. -- [[User:Jackturner3|jackturner3]] ([[User talk:Jackturner3|talk]]) 20:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
==Crimen sollicitationis==
Hello, I've noticed that you've done some work on this article, could you jump over to the article's talk page because I want to make a few changed to it. Thanks.
[[User:GuyIncognito|GuyIncognito]] ([[User talk:GuyIncognito|talk]]) 11:15, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
== User:Invocante ==
I've left the user a message on their talk page. Please consider trying to communicate your concerns to the user (sometimes [[Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace|templated user warning messages]] could help). There are no administrator actions that can really be taken (except in extreme circumstances) without proper warning. Also, article talk pages are a good place to discuss content disputes. Try to engage the user so that they explain their actions better on the talk page. Hope this helps.-[[User:Andrew c|Andrew c]] [[User talk:Andrew c|<sup>[talk]</sup>]] 18:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Lima
Who do you think you are? I [Invocante] do not accept that in the normal understanding of things I am violating the copyright of the ICEL. The very notion of copyright on translations of texts as ancient as the creed or the Gloria is dubious but in any case there is a more substantial point. The new translation when it comes out will affect millions of the Catholic laity and the attempt to hide behind copyright is simply disingenuous. The reason for this are well given by Father Zhulsdorf in his reply to the ICEL letter referred to by you [http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/2007/04/letter-from-icel.html here Indeed if we take the example of the new translation Gloria the Church has already authorised a new musical stetting of those words which is readily available from the Word Youth day website, see http://www.wyd2008.org/index.php/en/parishes_schools/wyd08_mass_setting. This availability on the WYD site tells us two things. One the text I provide was reliable and 2 the church is perfectly happy to have the text in the public domain. So on what basis do you laim the right to delete my entry? Lastly I might you arrogantly reedits my and everyone else's work but you make no effort to speak to me first. You seem to think you have a monopoly of wisdom about the catholic church. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Invocante|Invocante]] ([[User talk:Invocante|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Invocante|contribs]]) 18:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Lima, I note you continue to talk past me not to me which to put it mildly is rude but seems to be typical of your style. I fail to see what harm I am doing in publishing these texts. I am committing no real violation of copyright, and these texts are already available online including the World Youth Day site. I suspect this is not about you protecting Wikipedia it is about you monopolising all entries on the Catholic Church in Wikipedia. Wikipedia entries are supposed to be a community efort not an individual monopoly. But I see you zealous delete others’ entries. My entry on the Gloria was up for months before you arrogantly took it down. I repeat my question if the text is available from an official Catholic Church website on what basis do you challenge either it reliability or the fact that is now clearly in the public domain? (with the full consent of the Church (no less than Cardinal Pell himself I imagine). [[User:Invocante|Invocante]] ([[User talk:Invocante|talk]]) 20:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
The entire text of the Gloria (and of the Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei as well) can be found in the WYD08 Mass Parish Setting - Keyboard on that web page. You seem to misunderstand how copyright works it is perfectly legitimate to quote passages. or any material one it is in the public domain and authorship is acknowledged. For example[le if I want to quote "Yesterday" by the Beatles or a passage from JK Rowling I am free to do so and they cannot stop me, you or Wikipedia. Anyway if I were to apply the same logic to on what basis do you quote the existing 1973 ICEL or other liturgical texts? Have you obtained permission? I doubt it so to be consistent I expect you to remove all the quotations of the creed in modern English translations. But there is no need to do and equally you are not entitled to demand that I remove teh new ICEL translation because to repeat once, material is public in can never be made private again. Copyright is not about restricting the freedom to quote (else there would be no scholarship about modern writings) about acknowledging authorship and, where appropriate making payments. But quoting in Wikipedia is not for profit and my quoting fall within legitimate fair dealing. 14:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC) <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Invocante|Invocante]] ([[User talk:Invocante|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Invocante|contribs]]) </small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
Lima you have entirely failed to answer any of the points I made above. However you did post the following on my talk page:
"I want to make this remark as quietly as possible, so I am posting it here only. You know that the article is about English translations in current liturgical use. There is no certainty whatever that the text as voted by the US bishops in 2006 will ever be in current liturgical use anywhere, even in that country. It is at least possible that all English-speaking countries will have a uniform text, and that the US preferences will have failed to get support in other countries, clearance from the Vox Clara commission, and confirmation from the Holy See. I suspect you know this already. Lima (talk) 15:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)"
I suspect I know at least as much about the ICEL, Vox Clara as you do and you know full well that it is very likely we will get these new translations. Admittedly there is a lot of opposition from liberal bishops especially in the US and it is they who are desperate to stop the, far superior, revised texts becoming current among the faithful. I have wondered since this sparing match began what was driving your opposition to something so innocuous as publishing draft translations but such is you zeal in opposing the new translation that I can only suspect that you to are part of that liberal group who opposed accurate and well written English translations of the missal. I have always made it clear that these are only drafts. I would have no objection to you admitting the caveat above to any text I post but I do feel you are simply engaged in a process of trying to stop the dissemination of any knowledge about the new translation. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Invocante|Invocante]] ([[User talk:Invocante|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Invocante|contribs]]) </small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
Once again I see you have suppresed the new ICEL translation. This translation is clearly something you must hate very much given the zeal with which you supress it. You are not the only Catholic contibutor to Wikkipedia but you see dettermined to purge any other person's contributions. [[User:Invocante|Invocante]] ([[User talk:Invocante|talk]]) 13:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
:The article is about versions "in current liturgical use", not about drafts for future use. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 07:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
::You are now resting on a techicality. The article could just as easily include future use. I tried to esatblish an entry on future use but you supressed that too. You have entirely failed to answer the arguments I made above. Indeed the very concept of diadlogue seems to be alien to your nature.[[User:Invocante|Invocante]] ([[User talk:Invocante|talk]]) 13:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
:::It would be helpful if Invocante stopped making off-topic allegations about other editors' motives and actions. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/English_translations_of_the_Creed_for_possible_future_liturgical_use here] for the decision, in which I played no part, by which that article was deleted as a copyright violation. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 15:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
== Reverts of vandalism ==
Yes I know I should be more careful when looking at vandalism. Sorry and thanks for pointing it out. [[User:MillionaireMan|MillionaireMan]] ([[User talk:MillionaireMan|talk]]) 18:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
== Admin? ==
Hey there Lima,
I've always been very impressed with the way you handle yourself and strive for NPOV articles on this project. Have you thought about running for Admin? The current attitude at RfA is looking for people like yourself---quality editors who can be trusted with the tools. That being said, I couldn't guarantee anything. Some may oppose you because of your lack of edits in 'adminly areas.' If you are interested let me know and I'll take a closer look at you. I'd also give you an honest assessment as to what I felt your chances were. If you are interested, you can see my past candidates at my talk page.[[User:Balloonman|Balloonman]] ([[User talk:Balloonman|talk]]) 07:36, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
:Thank you for your kind thought. There are two very good reasons why I prefer not to take up the matter. One is that I have until recently been attacked by two editors and have also been in a disagreement with a respected Administrator over interpretation of a point of policy. The other reason, and the more important for me, is that I find the Wikipedia project already takes up rather too much of my time. I was quite sincere when I wrote that I would be delighted if the attack on me drew support, since it would give me a pretext to abandon the project. I may just perhaps after about two more years be able to devote more time to it, but I would prefer not to take on any more responsibilities now. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 18:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
::No problem, I was surprised that you weren't an admin already, but if you ever decide that you want the buttons let me know. I think you do a great job around here (as does [[user:ginkgo100|my wife]].) I fully understand when people say no, it's not something everybody wants/needs.[[User:Balloonman|Balloonman]] ([[User talk:Balloonman|talk]]) 19:11, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
== [[Crucifixion]] ==
You might want to look at my talk page where the 2 editors pushing the Urantia book are rather unhappy with me. A bit above their posts you will find a 3RR warning from one of them -- a warning he gave me for 2 edits over a week apart (he reported me and was blocked as he had 4 reverts). This is a [[WP:COATRACK]] issue isn't it (I'm still learning). Thanks--[[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 12:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
== Nicene Creed ==
I very much like your version [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nicene_Creed&diff=214980945&oldid=214864328]. Done there. --[[User:Observer99|Observer99]] ([[User talk:Observer99|talk]]) 23:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
== Requesting help with [[Antiochian Catholic Church in America]] article ==
I realize this article does not fall within your primary purview, but I would appreciate your help in protecting it from edits which are, at best, POV, and at worst, defamatory and/or vandalism, emanating from a suspended Deacon-Monk of this Church, of which, in the interests of full disclosure, I am a priest. Thanks in advance for your help in this matter, and if you have comments, questions, or concerns, please contact me via my talk page. --[[User:Midnite Critic|Midnite Critic]] ([[User talk:Midnite Critic|talk]]) 08:06, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your consideration in this matter. I have full confidence in your good faith and your desire to keep Wikipedia NPOV. I suspected, when the user in question actually got a user name, that he was gearing up for an all-out edit war, instead of, as he has done over the past few months, randomly striking anonymously from time to time. I appear to be mistaken about that at the moment, but I am not convinced that he will not do so in the future. In any event, if you have not already done so, if you could simply add this article to your watchlist, I would appreciate it. --[[User:Midnite Critic|Midnite Critic]] ([[User talk:Midnite Critic|talk]]) 18:31, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
==[[War of Heaven]]==
Hello Lima, there is a mention in the Qur'an about a disobedient Iblis but not a war in heaven ''when the Seraph Lucifer led a third of the Angels in an open revolution against God and his loyal angels.'' [[User:Kabad|Kabad]] ([[User talk:Kabad|talk]]) 19:58, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Do you simply delete things you [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=War_of_Heaven&oldid=219488247#The_War don't like?] [[User:Kabad|Kabad]] ([[User talk:Kabad|talk]]) 17:10, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
You can revise and improve articles without wiping out other editors' work. --[[User:Kabad|Kabad]] ([[User talk:Kabad|talk]]) 13:20, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for starting a discussion. Please give me some time to compare versions and read more about the subject. The only reason I got involved was to do a minor correction. --[[User:Kabad|Kabad]] ([[User talk:Kabad|talk]]) 12:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
::If I might offer a suggestion. The title "War of Heaven" is too closely linked to "Paradise Lost" and "Paradise Regained" by Milton. Yet I see no "Satanic Logic" within the overly broad interpretations. Milton was 51 and blind when he dictated the story to his daughters to put to paper. There are no "The Mind is it's Own place..." or "'Tis better to rule in Hell, than Serve in Heaven" quotes, leaving me to believe that this topic is generic and not specific. Perhaps an "According to:" may eliminate unnessary debate and confusion.
::If I may also compliment the voice of one who questioned Sherurcij's self perceived entitlement as owner of the article, you were not wrong in your assessment. He thinks he controls every article he comes across. He is manipulative, nasty, narcissitic, a megalomaniac, sociopathic and rude! Those are the nice qualities. I can't tell you what I really think here. If you are looking for co-operation from Sherurcij - be prepared to be the co-operator. He will revert without discussion, then yell when the same is done to him. Follow my history and you will see why. Oh, another thing, on another site he brags about how much money he makes at work per wikipedia edit. Nice job if you can get one like that. Be careful though, my suspicions are that he contributes enough money to keep Jimbo from banning him, others have tried, and been banned themselves. Just an observation! <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:75.143.200.179|75.143.200.179]] ([[User talk:75.143.200.179|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/75.143.200.179|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
I did make a once-off attempt at a general revision of the article - once-off, because I immediately dropped it when I found it met opposition. Cúchullain did say that my version was an improvement, but I decided to limit myself to just improving the existing text. Kabad's earliest comment on the matter (the second above) suggests that at that time he thought I was fighting for reinstatement of my general revision. I felt that that would be too difficult. But I think that, in spite of the pessimism of 75.143.200.179, that it really is worthwhile trying to get the "owner" of the article to allow other editors to make their contributions by adding matter that is both sourced and apposite. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 07:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
And, by the way, I did try "According to ..."; but Sherurcij reverted that effort also. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 07:59, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
I saw you on a friends talk page so I took a look at your contribs:
*06:33, 19 June 2008 (hist) (diff) User talk:Pastordavid (→Talk:War of Heaven#Appeal for intervention: new section)
*06:31, 19 June 2008 (hist) (diff) User talk:MishaPan (→Talk:War of Heaven#Appeal for intervention: new section) (top)
*06:28, 19 June 2008 (hist) (diff) User talk:Richardshusr (→Talk:War of Heaven#Appeal for intervention: new section) (top)
*06:26, 19 June 2008 (hist) (diff) User talk:David Underdown (→Talk:War of Heaven#Appeal for intervention: new section) (top)
*06:25, 19 June 2008 (hist) (diff) User talk:Mike Searson (→Talk:War of Heaven#Appeal for intervention: new section) (top)
*06:22, 19 June 2008 (hist) (diff) User talk:Tb (→Talk:War of Heaven#Appeal for intervention: new section) (top)
*06:18, 19 June 2008 (hist) (diff) User talk:Cuchullain (→Talk:War of Heaven#Appeal for intervention: new section)
*06:16, 19 June 2008 (hist) (diff) User talk:Kabad (→Talk:War_of_Heaven#Appeal_for_intervention: new section) (top)
You're not trying to [[WP:CANVAS|canvas]] are you? Those entries are not quite enough to convince me you are, so forget it. However, I will let you know that I put an RfCreli on the talk page to drum up interest so we might want to step away from personally notifying other editors lest it '''look''' like canvasing. [[User:Padillah|Padillah]] ([[User talk:Padillah|talk]]) 12:53, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
:No, I was not trying to canvas. As you can see from the list you made, I began with the two editors who were already involved, one of whom (as you can see above) was until then quite hostile to me. To get more people involved, what could I do - since I did not know of the method that you have kindly used on the article's Talk page - but get some Talk links from my Talk page, starting from the bottom (the most recent). If you look at what they wrote, you will see that not all of them have always been in agreement with me; but I thought that, in this matter, the more, the better. I felt sure that scarcely anyone would support the claim of the "owner" of the article to control the gateway to editing it. If one of those I contacted is the editor who has since attacked Sherurcij anonymously, I was and am quite unaware of any previous conflict between him and Sherurcij. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 13:11, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
::Aww crap. Emotionles text strikes again. I was never under any impression you were trying to canvas. The requests you made were litterally "come and participate" with no leaning or bias I could discren. I was attempting levity in warning you that, now that I have the RfC on the page, any '''further''' attempts could be turned to '''look''' like canvasing. I never meant to impugn your intentions or attempts at gaining wider consensus. Sorry if I failed, text does not lend itself to subtlety. [[User:Padillah|Padillah]] ([[User talk:Padillah|talk]]) 13:59, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
:::Thanks for your note. I'm afraid I am going to be either entirely off-wiki or very limited in my online time for about a month or so - so I can't really pitch in at this time. [[User:Pastordavid|Pastordavid]] ([[User talk:Pastordavid|talk]]) 16:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
::::NOTE: I wasn't interested enough to look up before now the contributions of 75.143.200.179; I think it is clear that he is not any of the people I contacted. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 17:56, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
== Crucifixion - Sourcing is for credibility ==
We source to establish credibility for claims. Using one Wikimedia project claim to source a claim on another Wikimedia project (that is not about wikimedia or its projects) does not provide credibility. Can you find a reliable published source for your latest claim at [[Crucifixion]]? If not, maybe it is not true. [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] ([[User talk:WAS 4.250|talk]]) 17:00, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
:Thanks for fixing that. [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] ([[User talk:WAS 4.250|talk]]) 17:26, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
== [[Visio Tnugdali]] ==
I have reverted (except for the useful link) your changes here, which did not introduce "more usual terminology". It is very important to maintain the distinction between works actually used for the article and a general bibliography, as most editors recognise, and is no doubt stated in a policy somewhere - see for examples FAs. Most people use "further reading" for works not consulted. I hope you don't make a habit of making these changes. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 13:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
:I think "References" ''is'' the usual section title, as perhaps indicated also by the what-do-you-call-them, "Reflist" and "references", that you can insert by clicking on them at the foot of the editing page. But if Johnbod has such a strong liking for "Notes" instead of "References", I certainly don't want to cause him distress. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 13:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
::If the works are in a separate section, as here, "notes" for the citations and "references" for the works themselves is usual. When they are combined into single entries, "references" is correct. See [[Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Section_headings]], although in my experience "Footnotes" is rarely used. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] ([[User talk:Johnbod|talk]]) 14:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
==Summorum Pontificum==
I don't know anything about this topic, but I tend to agree that Thompson's comments are getting too much airplay. But because Thompson is a journalist and publishing his blog under the auspices of the DT, I suspect it IS a reliable source, though you could always get other editors opinions at [[WP:RSN]]. The other difference is that the blog is not been used to make controversial claims about a living person (or at least I don't think it is, perhaps I am wrong). That's why I wouldn't suggest using this blog [http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/damian_thompson/blog/2008/03/10/the_sound_of_music_will_rot_your_soul] or this one [http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/damian_thompson/blog/2008/06/25/lefebvrist_deadline_looms_this_weekend] for the Williamson article, though it is possible WP:RSN might give them the OK if you tried. But frankly I think there are enough clearly reliable sources that it is not necessary.--[[User:Slp1|Slp1]] ([[User talk:Slp1|talk]]) 17:00, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
==Heraldic Arms ==
Thank you so much, I tried to change at once but it does not seem to make much difference, what am I missing? Thanks--[[User:Ambrosius007|Ambrosius007]] ([[User talk:Ambrosius007|talk]]) 11:55, 28 June 2008 (UTC)Thank's, I changed the pic replacing it with the papal arms, but maybe there is another one which you have in mind? --[[User:Ambrosius007|Ambrosius007]] ([[User talk:Ambrosius007|talk]]) 12:47, 28 June 2008 (UTC)MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, thank you for the idea, its really much nicer now. --[[User:Ambrosius007|Ambrosius007]] ([[User talk:Ambrosius007|talk]]) 16:46, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
==Nativity section==
Hi, after a few more web-clicks I think your point about nativity having to be in the article is valid, so I made a subsection for it. Could you please assist with that section now that you have started the thought process for it? It requires some text and most importantly some relevant (I would say at least 8) good images in the gallery.
Your suggestion and then John's comment made me go further, and I also created a subsection for ''Christ and Mary''. I still have to do more thinking on that but it seems that there is ''art beyond the Maddona''. Would you like to help by expanding that section? It also needs 7 more images of an adult Jesus with Mary as her mother.
Your help with the text and images for the Nativity and Christ and Mary subsections will be appreciated. Thanks [[User:History2007|History2007]] ([[User talk:History2007|talk]]) 22:55, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
:Hi, thanks for your touch ups. I found a few more images, but if you have more images and text for those sections, please do add them, and/or comment. Cheers [[User:History2007|History2007]] ([[User talk:History2007|talk]]) 06:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
== Eucharist Third Opinion ==
''Regarding'' [[Talk:Theories about the origin of the Eucharist#Request_for_intervention]]:<br/>
[[Image:Information.svg|25px]] Thank you for listing your dispute at [[Wikipedia:Third opinion]]. Your request did not follow the [[Wikipedia:Third opinion#How to list a dispute|guidelines for listing disputes]]. These guidelines are in place because they make sure that the editor who writes the Third Opinion is not biased, and that (s)he can easily see what the dispute is about.
The description of the dispute should be '''concise''' and '''neutral''', and you should '''sign with the timestamp only'''. A concise and neutral description means that only the ''subject matter'' of the dispute should be described, and not your (nor anyone else's) views on it. For example, in a dispute about [[WP:RS|reliable sources]], do not write ''"He thinks this source is unreliable"'', but rather write ''"Dispute about the reliability of a source"''. To [[WP:SIG|sign]] with only the timestamp, and without your username, use five tildes (<nowiki>~~~~~</nowiki>) instead of four.
Your request for a Third Opinion may have been edited by another editor to follow the guidelines - feel free to edit it again if necessary. If the dispute is of such a nature that it cannot follow the guidelines, another part of the dispute resolution process may be able to help you. For example, [[Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts]] is a good place to alert others to a particular editor's behaviour. Thank you for opting to use the dispute resolution process.<!--Template:Uw-3o--> -[[User:Colfer2|Colfer2]] ([[User talk:Colfer2|talk]]) 11:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
:Right. Lima, the reason your statement was taken down to what it was was because 3O requests have to be neutral and anonymous. Perhaps it didn't quite capture what you were asking for, but what you had originally put was not neutral. — [[User:HelloAnnyong|'''<span style="color: #aaa">Hello</span><span style="color: #666">Annyong</span>''']] <sup>[[User_talk:HelloAnnyong|(say whaaat?!)]]</sup> 13:09, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
::Yes, that I understood, and did not protest, since I had no reason to; but I thought it simplest to withdraw what seemed a misrepresentation. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 13:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
::To clarify, I edited the [[WP:3O]] request and left the above note here. Lima deleted the 3O request. -[[User:Colfer2|Colfer2]] ([[User talk:Colfer2|talk]]) 15:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
:::If I did wrong, I apologize, as I have already done on Colfer2's page. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 18:48, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
::::It's no big deal, I just wanted to make clear what happened to the [[WP:3O]]. Thanks! -[[User:Colfer2|Colfer2]] ([[User talk:Colfer2|talk]]) 18:53, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Hey. Please don't stop editing the article; we'll get to the bottom of this. I've asked someone from [[WP:X|WikiProject Christianity]] for another opinion. One way you could help would be to look around for more people to help get consensus going. Just a thought. — [[User:HelloAnnyong|'''<span style="color: #aaa">Hello</span><span style="color: #666">Annyong</span>''']] <sup>[[User_talk:HelloAnnyong|(say whaaat?!)]]</sup> 15:57, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
== [[Henry Chadwick (theologian)|Henry Chadwick]] ==
I've recently worked up the above article (he was one of the Anglican participants in ARCIC I and II), and was thinking of putting it up for GA. Could you give it the once over? [[User:David Underdown|David Underdown]] ([[User talk:David Underdown|talk]]) 16:02, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
== eastern catholicism edits ==
On [[Eastern Catholic Churches]] I had a sandbox up for nine months, give or take. You did not contribute a single edit when it was in the sandbox and then when I take it out as unobjectionable, you do a pair of hefty edits that would have been much better done in the sandbox. Did you really mean to say that a papal document in 1743 is of the modern era? When did the modern era begin in your opinion? There are other significant problems with your edit, though I'll try to preserve what is useful. [[User:TMLutas|TMLutas]] ([[User talk:TMLutas|talk]]) 07:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
:If I ever knew of this sandbox work, I forgot about it. Sorry. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 09:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
::For my part, I do not think that a mention of the old rule that was altered in what I would call modern times is equivalent to calling the old rule a modern document. Besides, you do seem to have preserved all my edits, including the mention of the 1743 document. Thanks. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 09:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
:::Since you ask about what when I think the modern era began, I could refer you to the Wikipedia article [[modern era]]. Perhaps you should do some editing on that article, since it considers 1743 to be within the modern era, even in the stricter sense of "modern era". However, in my non-expert opinion, I myself would put the start of the modern era in politics slightly later, namely at the French Revolution, and in Catholic Church matters at the loss of the Pope's temporal sovereignty. I am not one of those who think that anything earlier than the Second Vatican Council is antiquated. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 09:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
== [[Tridentine Mass]] ==
That ref was weak, you got me all fired up, I was expecting something great! Find something better, it's a fringe position, but if you can find a decent print source...it would be great, I have faith in you. Also, that article has excessive links, the "See Also" section should have links not already in the body of the article.--[[User:Mike Searson|Mike]] - [[User_talk:Mike_Searson|Μολὼν λαβέ]] 06:39, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
==Infobox resize==
Hi, thanks for fixing Leo Dupont's page. Someone put the infobox on his page and it is OK, but it seems too large, and full of empty space. Do you know how to make it smaller, now that you are fixig that page? Also why is he called a confessor? I am not sure of the best title for him. If you are, please fix it as well. Thanks. [[User:History2007|History2007]] ([[User talk:History2007|talk]]) 19:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
:I do not think he should be called a confessor. See below. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 19:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
==Regarding Infobox and attributes et al==
First of all Lima, I want to say that I and my group really appreciate your efforts and writing regarding many of the Saints, and various aspects of the Roman Catholic Faith, particulary pre-Vatican II "stuff" and [[Traditionalist Catholics|Traditional Roman Catholics]] in general.
With regards to the attributes section, as found in a typical Saints Portal infobox, I and many others would place terms such as Confessor, Bishop, etc., with internal links in that section so as to give the viewer of the page a link to find out more about a confessor, bishop, etc. To place that link within the Title portion of the Saints Portal never made sense to many of us.
With regards to Americanizations in terms of dates, no offense, but the majority of us on Wikipedia are Americans and prefer American usage in language and dating. I personally do not mind British usage.
Finally, there are aspects reflecting the traditional understanding of the Roman Catholic Faith that need to be better defined for the occasional viewer of this material here on Wikipedia. Aspects touching upon Traditional Roman Catholics need to be better explained. As an aside, many Traditionalist Catholics strongly prefer the term "Traditional Roman Catholics." Perhaps you yourself and our group (User:ProudPapa5, User:AidanP02, User:MamaGeri and myself) can get together and tweak these materials and make them better. What do you think? All the best... [[User:AMC0712|AMC0712]] ([[User talk:AMC0712|talk]]) 17:21, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
:Thank you, AMC, for providing this opportunity for clarifying these matters. I reply here, so that your friends who form the same group with you can join in at this single point, if they wish.
:1. First, "attributes". In [[saint symbology]], "attributes" means the traditional symbols or iconic motifs associated with the saints' lives that are used to let people know who is the saint in question. A gridiron indicates Lawrence, a shamrock Patrick, a flowering staff Joseph etc. Terms such as "confessor", "martyr", "virgin", "doctor of the Church" are descriptions or, if you like, titles, but not "attributes" in the normal sense of the word in this context. Just Google for the two words "attributes" and "saints", and see what you get. It is precisely the change that I see is being imposed in the meaning of "attributes" that has got me going on restoring it to its original meaning in these pages. (I also do not really like seeing these descriptions placed in the "title" line, which I think should be reserved for titles given to single saints (like "Apostle of such-and-such a country or area") or at most for a very few saints. Otherwise, where do you stop? The same person can be called "confessor", "priest", "religious", "founder", "educator" ...)
:2. "Traditionalist Catholic" is a confusing term in this field. "Traditional Catholic" would be even more confusing, since there are many Catholics who are certainly traditional but not traditionalist - unless you think that nothing after some arbitrary date is traditional, whether that date is 1969 or 1962 (Missal of John XXIII) or 1960 (his Code of Rubrics), 1955 (general alterations by Pius XII), early 1950s (his revision of Holy Week and Easter Vigil), 1913 (Pius X's reform of the Roman Breviary and general rubrics), 1634 (Urban VIII's radical revision of the hymns and his other changes), 1604 (Clement VIII's replacement of Pius V's 1570 Tridentine Missal), or even 1568 (Pius V's revision of the Roman Calendar and the Roman Breviary)? If you want to speak with clarity about Traditionalist Catholics in relation to calendars, you really must specify the calendar you mean. This year, statements have been inserted saying that Traditionalist Catholics do something or other, when in fact what I suppose to be the great majority of them (''Summorum Pontificum'' followers, SSPX followers and others who accept the 1962 Missal and Breviary) do ''not'' do it. Those statements would have to be rephrased to say that those who follow pre-1960 calendars do something or other. If I remember right, I have even found the statement that traditionalist Catholics celebrate Saint Philomena liturgically. Unless those "traditionalist Catholics" live in the areas where such celebration was authorized before 1961, they are not traditionalists, but innovators.
:3. See [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Retaining the existing variety]] on Wikipedia rules about US/non-US spelling. It would be a long and tiresome work to undo all the Americanization that certain people have been forcing on these articles in total disregard of what was the established style of the articles, and so of the rules of Wikipedia, which professes to be international and to treat US and non-US editors on an equal footing. (If you dislike seeing on your screen the day-month-year order of dates, just click "my preferences" on the top of your Wikipedia page, then click "Date and time", and choose the way you want dates to appear for you. I have made my choice. You can make yours.)
:By the way, what directed my attention to these matters a few weeks ago was the attempt on the "Antipope" page to present Antipope Felix II as ''certainly'' a recognized saint. Then these many other things came to light. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 19:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
== Baptism ==
Thank you for the reference to Canon 861 §2. I must confess that until now, I had never read that particular canon, and only had knowledge of the passage from the CCC... [[User:Pax85|Pax85]] ([[User talk:Pax85|talk]]) 04:50, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
:No problem. At the current moment, I am mostly into vandal fighting and copy-editing, but I was planing on taking a look at the article a bit later myself to see if there was anything else I could help with...
== Sacraments Article ==
I just wanted to let you know not to panic too much when looking at the article. I am just doing a small bit of reorganizing and making proper references out of things. There are come citation needed tags, but I will have those cleared soon. It will be a couple of hours due to other things on my plate. I just figured I would pass this along, since I am pretty sure it is on your watchlist. Once the <nowiki>{{inuse}}</nowiki> tag disappears, I will let you know, and we can figure out how badly I damaged the article. :) [[User:Pax85|Pax85]] ([[User talk:Pax85|talk]]) 17:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
: Ok, so I am realizing that this will take more than just an afternoon. My ultimate goal, is mainly just provide references throughout the article, as it seems the list is a bit short right now. A couple of the paragraphs seem a bit unwieldy too, but I'll worry about that later. So over the next few days, I am going to do some research for the references and continue through the article. If you are up to it, any suggestions, comments, or collaboration would be much appreciated! I will keep an eye on the article's talk page... [[User:Pax85|Pax85]] ([[User talk:Pax85|talk]]) 20:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
== Barnstar ==
{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | [[Image:Christian_Barnstar.png|100px]]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Christianity Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | For all your hard work on [[Christianity]]-related topics! [[User:Organic Cabbage|Organic Cabbage]] ([[User talk:Organic Cabbage|talk]]) 14:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
|}
== Traditionalist Catholic ==
I just wanted to thank you for your work on [[Traditionalist Catholic]]. I know it was "only" a paragraph, but when I was trying to wikify the article as part of [[WP:WWF|WikiProject Wikify]] (shameless plug) the paragraph had my brain running in circles trying to follow the terminology. So long story short, I just wanted to thank you for your effort! [[User:Bvlax2005|Bvlax2005]] ([[User talk:Bvlax2005|talk]]) 04:29, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
== List of unrecognized countries ==
Just to let you know, I added [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7582181.stm this reference] to the article [[List of unrecognized countries]] when I made my edit earlier on. That source, the BBC, says:
<blockquote>President Dmitry Medvedev has declared that Russia formally recognises the independence of the breakaway Georgian regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.</blockquote>
Last updated ten minutes ago, though there was a page there when I added it at noon UTC. ''[[User:Pfainuk|Pfainuk]]'' <small>''[[User Talk:Pfainuk|talk]]''</small> 13:01, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
==[[Pentarchy]]==
Lima, I was wondering if you could look at the changes that an IP editor made today at [[Pentarchy]]. Some of the assertions look suspicious. Thanks, [[User:Majoreditor|Majoreditor]] ([[User talk:Majoreditor|talk]]) 16:41, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
::Thank you! [[User:Majoreditor|Majoreditor]] ([[User talk:Majoreditor|talk]]) 00:39, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
==Second Enoch==
Lima, I've seen your edit on [[Melkisedek]]. Thank you for the edit. Please take note that Britannica is a little old. Nowadays most scholars support the Jewish (of course not pharisaic/rabbinic) origin. For a Jewish origin we have: Charles, Bonwetsch, Bousset, Harnack, Schurer, Szekely, Riessler, Schimtd, Eisfeld, Scholem, Pines, Delcor, Denis, Kamlah, Mascerskij, Philomenko, Stichel, De Santos Otero, Rowley, Sacchi. For a later Christian work resting upon a Jewish work have only Mikil, Danielou, Rubinstein and of course Vaillant (1952).
I suggest to move information about the origin from [[Melchizedek]] / [[Virgin birth of Jesus]] into the main Article [[Second Book of Enoch]]. In [[Melchizedek]] / [[Virgin birth of Jesus]] we could say nothing about the origin of [[Second Book of Enoch]]. If you prefer also datation and the issue of chapters 69-72 (a slighly complex issue) can be placed only in the Article [[Second Book of Enoch]], where, who is interested in, shall find all the details and the different theories. [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 17:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:I certainly have no trouble with what you suggest doing. My only problem was with the seeming over-simplification of the question in the two articles that I retouched, and the presentation of the Melchizedek tale as undoubtedly part of the Second Book of Enoch. Do the writers whom you favour believe that the Melchizedek story has from the start been part of the book that they believe a Jew wrote some time before the year 70, perhaps even in the preceding century? Of the sources that I found on the Internet, the really serious ones exclude the story from the genuine book. The old Jewish Encyclopedia, for instance, takes it that the 68-chapter version of the book is the correct one. And if the Melchizedek part is not authentic, its date may bear no relation to that of 2 Enoch. [[Virgin birth of Jesus]] presented the Melchizedek tale as (certainly) part of 2 Enoch and thus (certainly) written before the year 70; I felt that each of these two statements, but even more the two taken together, had a very shaky foundation. Note that I am in no position whatever to question your judgement on this matter.
:Your idea of uptodatedness is very strict, classifying the online Encyclopaedia Britannica as "a little old" :-) Still, I suppose that what it says is enough to indicate that the matter is not 100% clear. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 18:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Well, you are right that date, origin and manuscript tradition cannot be summarized in a few words and that the ''(propably before the 70)'' could be misleading. But also the present little summary in each of the two Article cannot be taken as proved. So perhaps it is better to have date, origin and text in the main Article, leaving in the two articles only the link to [[Second Book of Enoch]] and a few other information about the specific issue. These Apocryphal texts were edited at the early XX century (Charles etc.) but later scholars lost interest on them. Only after the 1975 very early datation of the Qumran 1E papyrus it was understood the importance of such texts to study the forgotten Judaisms at about Jesus time. So we have a litterature quite old usually considered in many on-line, and lots of modern studies.
:: Many encyclopedias dont consider 2HM (=Melkisedek section) mainly because Charles (the great editor of OT Apocrypha) left it out in 1913(?) edition, even if he himself published it in the 1896 edition. Some recent manuscripts leave 2HM out, but it is probably because 2HM was a problem for Christians copyists. The more reliable manuscripts have it. 2HM is anyway an addition to 2E (the style is slightly different), but it was a very early addition by someone of the same ''sect'' that wrote 2E (it uses the same language and same typical names as ''Azuchan'' for the Temple). Moreover a Melchisedek controversy is now proved by Qumran 11Q13. So 2HM is usually now considered part of 2E, even if written slightly later, anyway before or about the Letter to the Hebrew [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 21:41, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::As I said, I have no objection to your proposed move: what you have written above would add very useful and interesting information to the article on the book, and I am confident you would source properly the statement that 2HM is a later addition to the original 2E. On the question of the date of 2HM, could you really go beyond "Recent scholars put the date of this addition to before or about Heb" to "The addition was made before or about Heb"? As I said, I am in no position to question your judgement on this matter. But I think that, unless the stronger statement is by Wikipedia standards verifiable, it should not be presented as certain in the references to the question of date in the two article I retouched. Nor, of course, should those articles present as certain any other date of 2HM: what I wrote was a non-expert opinion based merely on some sources easily available on the Internet. By the way, I could have added that the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (2005 edition), which deals with the 2HM issue only by saying that the shorter recension "is undoubtedly the earlier", gives as extreme views on the date of 2E the view of Charles (more than just a little old), which puts it about the beginning of the Christian era, and the view that puts it between the 12th and 15th centuries, and it mentions as an intermediate view a probable date in the 2nd or early 3rd century. But I suppose that this source too (the first edition was in 1957) is "a little old". Again by the way, Charles did publish 2HM in his 1896 edition, but, if I remember right, he treated it as non-authentic. A further comment, this time not by the way, is that I think that any reference to 2HM in the [[Virgin birth of Jesus]] article should provide a link to the actual text (in English translation). [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 04:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::: Well, the shorter/longer recension is a different matter than 2HM. It is about the whole text. We have 2HM also in shorter recension manuscripts. Now most scholars agree that the shorter is older. When I have time I'll edit (with ref) the main Article and later the 2 Articles. thanks. [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 06:06, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Dear Lima, I kindly ask you to check my edits in [[Virgin birth of Jesus#Pseudepigrapha|Virgin birth of Jesus]] and in [[Melchizedek#Melchizedek in the Second Book of Enoch|Melchizedek in the Second Book of Enoch]]. Please check also my new sections in [[Second Book of Enoch]] (''Content'' and ''Exaltation of Melchizedek'') and my edits on ''introduction'' and ''Manuscript Tradition''. If something is wrong dont hesitate to edit them. Thanks [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 17:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Would you please consider making a change yourself? I don't see how it can be maintained that "the similarities of 2EM with Letter to the Hebrews are remarkable". Heb is merely an application to Jesus of phrases in the canonical scriptures (Gn and Ps) about Melchizedek, about whom it tells no new story. 2EM is a totally independent fantastic story about a strangely conceived child who by his own power comes out of his dead mother and is found, already quite developed, sitting beside her corpse, clothed, speaking and praising God and bearing some visible mark of priesthood, and who then is transferred to Eden by an archangel so as to escape the Flood. (To draw a parallel with "the Son", Heb does remark about the absence in Gn of any mention of Melchizedek's father and mother, his ancestors, his birth and death; but it does not go so far as to say he actually had none of these, while 2EM gives Melchizedek a mother but apparently no father, seemingly gives him ancestors, certainly gives him a beginning, and does not say that he never died.) The only similarities between 2EM and Heb are Melchizedek's name and priesthood, both of which are already in the Genesis account, and so are not inventions of 2EM and Heb. Everything else is dissimilar, not similar. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 07:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I wrote it because the few authors, like Andersen (obviously chosen by Britannica you quoted before as majority author), that think the 2EM is an early Christian work base their theory on the similarities of 2EM with Heb, while actually most authors now disagree for the same reasons you gave (so I wrote ''differences (for Hebrews Melchisedek is primarly a heavenly figure while 2EM depicts him as an earthly one) don’t allow to prove the dependence of 2EM from Hebrews''. 2EM is considered to be a midway between the fully earthly (with parents and died) M.=Shem found in Targum and the out-of-age M. found in Heb. This ancient feature anyway dont allow us to say that Heb depends directly from 2EM, but simply say that both texts, even with different solutions, shall be placed in the M. controversy in the 1 century. Sacchi suggests that Heb speaks to former priests of the 2EM sect (actually Heb dont need to prove the existence of a M. priesthood or the lack of parents of M.). I'll edit it. I shall edit also section theology that is a bad summary of Orlov theory that lacks of consensus. Thanks. [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 08:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
==Ambrosian Rite==
:Could you be so kind to check and edit these two sections of me [[Ambrosian Rite#Differences with the Roman Rite]] and [[Ambrosian Rite#Recent History]] that I'm not sure if are readable?. Thanks. [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 21:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:Thank you! [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 06:15, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
: Thanks again for the copyedit. Please check [[Talk:Ambrosian Rite#New Lectionary et alia]]. Would you please consider making a change yourself? Thank a lot. [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 19:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:I again dare to ask you please to check and copyedit an edit of me. Here I refer to [[Apocalypse of Zephaniah]] that I expanded from stub. I know that there is [[Wikipedia:Editor review]] but I dont think it is for a single Article nor I dare to use it. If you have no time, don't worry. Thanks [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 18:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Thank you for the copyedit. [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 11:27, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
: Dear Lima, I propose to modify your last edit in [[Summorum pontificum]] as follow: ''...the existing rules given on [[31 July]] [[1985]], which had not given rise to rifts within the Church, continued in force<ref>''Comunicato del Pro Presidente della Congregazione del Rito Ambrosiano in riferimento al Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum '' dated August 24, 2007 [http://cumpetro.splinder.com/post/15322650/]</ref>, under which are regularly celebrated Masses according to the earlier form of the Ambrosian Rite (that of the 1954 Ambrosian Missal) as detailed in [[Traditional Ambrosian Rite]]''. The Legnano Mass is not due to the Summorum Pontificum but expressly authorized by Milan Curia (and only for one year up to now). Please take note that when the Summorum pontificum was officially published on the ''Acta Apostolicae Sedis'' (i.e. when it entered in force), the subtitle ''De usu extraordinario antiquae formae Ritus Romani'' was added, so now there are no doubt it is in force only for the Roman Rite. Anyway of course Milan Church loves to follow pope's wishes. I've already edited [[Traditional Ambrosian Rite]] to add Legnano Mass reference. Thanks again. [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 16:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
::Torniello, who I suppose is Milanese, has declared that the concession for Legnano was at the request of "un gruppo di fedeli animati dal 'Movimento Liturgico Benedettiano', che si propone di portare avanti la 'via ambrosiana' al motu proprio ''Summorum Pontificum''." That is an explicit statement of a connection with ''Summorum Pontificum''. Would it be best to omit entirely from the Wikipedia article the mention of the Ambrosian Rite? If we were to enter into the question, we would have to consider whether article 2 of the motu proprio applies, for Masses celebrated privately, even to Ambrosian-Rite priests: "In Masses celebrated without the people, each Catholic priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or regular, may use the Roman Missal published by Bl. Pope John XXIII in 1962, or the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970 ..." Clergy who use the Ambrosian liturgical rite are not of the [[Roman Rite]] (Roman liturgical rite), but they belong to the [[Latin Rite]] (the Latin Church). Are they therefore authorized to use the 1962 Roman Missal and the 1970 Roman Missal (the older and the newer form of the Roman Rite)? Back in 1570, did Pope Pius V's ''[[Quo primum]]'' give the right to all Latin-Rite priests, including the Ambrosian, to use his Missal as an alternative to any local rite of more than 200 years' antiquity that they might also be authorized to use? There may well be opposing views on these questions. That is why I wonder whether it would be best to omit the topic entirely. To present any view on the matter, we would need to quote a source of a certain importance that upholds that view. We certainly cannot present any opinion about whether ''Summorum Pontificum'' does or does not apply also to Ambrosian clergy, if that opinion is based merely on our own personal interpretation of the documents. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 19:22, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Torniello is a journalist, and the expression ''la via ...sana al..'' means to get the same result with a different way. The official press release I referenced before and the addition of the specification 'Roman Rite' in the publishing of the s.p. in the ''Acta Apostolicae Sedis'' clear any doubt. About Legnano Mass, in the site of who organized it [http://www.rinascimentosacro.com/] is clearly written it was possible because of an authorization of the Archbishop. If you read down there you find Tornielli's article that says ''Com’è noto, il documento di Benedetto XVI riguarda soltanto il rito romano, non quello ambrosiano'' (''As it is known, the document of Benedict XVI concerns only the Roman rite, not the Ambrosian''). Of course an Ambrosian priest could celebrate privately in Roman Rite, but we are speaking of Ambrosian rite. There are been same cases of this solution (Roman Extraordianry Rite) in Milan. There is not a Ambrosian Missal issued by Pope John XXIII in 1962. I think that a simply sentence about the not Roman Rites in Article [[Summorum Pontificum]] should be keept, perhaps we can stay very (too much) cautious and say something like ''The application of the s.p. to not Roman Rites is not immediate''. Anyway I dont think that the reference to Legnano Mass should be placed in Article about s.p.: it dont worth in a general Article. A single line for not Roman rites is enough. [[Traditional Ambrosian Rite]] is the right place. Thanks again for you copyedit. [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 20:04, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
:::If I read you correctly, you do agree that ''Summorum Pontificum'' applies also to Ambrosian priests, since they are members of the Latin Rite (i.e. Church). The motu proprio gives rules about use of the Roman Rite, not about use of the Ambrosian Rite: "il documento riguarda soltanto il rito (i.e. ''liturgico'') romano, non quello (i.e. ''liturgico'') ambrosiano". But the Legnano authorization to use the last Ambrosian Missal issued before the Second Vatican Council can certainly be seen as analogous to and inspired by the motu proprio's authorization to use the last pre-Vatican-II Roman Missal. As such, it deserves a mention in the ''Summorum Pontificum'' article more than an earlier (and apparently now superseded) statement that there was no need to make any such analogous move with regard to the Ambrosian Rite. If we were to include in the article the phrase, "The motu proprio concerns use of an earlier form of the Roman Rite; it does not apply directly to use of earlier forms of other Latin liturgical rites", we would have to add: "Nevertheless, a similar decision was made in 2008 with regard to the Ambrosian Rite." [[User:Lima|Lima]] [[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 04:30, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Well, the issue is not if the Milanese clergy can say a ''private'' Mass with Roman rite, but if they can do it with Amborosian rite. Further the s.m. allows also a priest to say a ''public'' Mass (public/private here means scheduled/not scheduled) with Traditional Roman Rite without (and this is the point of the s.p.) the explicit authorization of the bishop. Legnano Mass (a public Mass) had to be explicitly authorized by the bishop, because it falls under the previous (''Ambrosian'') regulation. There was already an other Mass authorized in Traditional Ambrosian Rite in the Diocese, so the Legnano Mass dont bring new regulation. To say ''..a similar decision was made in 2008 with regard to the Ambrosian Rite'' is technically wrong, because it looks like that from 2008 onward it is allowed to say private Masses or public Masses (with a stable gruop), in traditional Ambrosian rite, without the explicit authorization of the bishop, that is not at all true. After the ''indultus'' of pope John Paul II (Quattuor abhinc annos 10.03.84 that required the explicit bishop authorization), the Archbishop of Milan issued a similar decree for the Ambrosian rite in 1985. The s.m. abolished the previous Roman rule (no explicit bishop authorization is now required), while for Milan the 1985 rule still applies: ''private'' and ''public'' Mass in Trad. Ambr. rite shall be explicitly authorized by the Ambrosian Head Rite (the bishop of Milan), while ''private'' Masses can of course be said in extraord. Roman rite. [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 06:38, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I agree that the conditions laid down in the motu proprio about public Masses do not apply to public celebrations in the Ambrosian Rite, and I do not dispute that what ''Summorum Pontificum'' says about Masses celebrated without the people (what until 1960 were called "Missae privatae") does apply to Ambrosian priests, enabling them, if they wish, to use freely in those Masses not only the present form of Mass in the Roman Rite but also that of 1962 in place of the Ambrosian-Rite Mass. ''Summorum Pontificum'' is generally understood to favour wider use of the older (1962) form of the Roman Rite at the expense of the later (1970) form. Only in this general interpretation of the motu proprio, not in the specific conditions that it lays down, do I see it as influencing the Legnano decision. It seems to me that Torniello has good grounds for seeing an influence of the papal motu proprio ("se il documento papale (i.e. the motu proprio) non viene brandito come una rivincita-rivendicazione, e i fedeli attaccati all'antico rito si muovono nell'ottica della comunione ecclesiale, è possibile ottenere ciò che si chiede") in the change of mind of the Capo Rito of the Ambrosian Rite, who only a short time ago declared that there was no need to change the pre-motu-proprio regulations that allowed the older form of the Ambrosian Rite to be celebrated in only one church under his jurisdiction. A spokesman of the group that made the request also linked it with ''Summorum Pontificum'': "La messa in latino è peraltro indicata (he was referring to the motu proprio) come forma straordinaria dallo stesso papa Benedetto XVI." That is all I meant by "analogy". Would "influence" be a better word? And when I wrote "a similar decision" (not the best possible expression), I intended that the nature of the similarity should be spelled out, preventing anyone thinking that the Ambrosian Capo Rito had adopted the same regulations as in the motu proprio. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 08:05, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
:::: I can agree that the s.p. has created a ''favorable mood'' also for the Ambrosian Traditional Rite, and with Tornielli who says that Legnano Mass was obtained by the Archbishop because of the change in the attitude of the traditionalist gruop now no more in direct opposition to the Archbishop, but these are journalistic POV. Anyway in such Article, in section ''Conditions for use of the 1962 Missal'' we cuold say ''The motu proprio concerns use of an earlier form of the Roman Rite; it does not apply directly to use of earlier forms of other Latin liturgical rites, nevertheless it created a fabourable mood (climate?) for the re-discovery and utilization for istance of the [[Traditional Ambrosian Rite]]''. I'm sure you will find better English expression than me, so for me it is ok whatever you decide. [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 11:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Please let me know what you think of the revised version of the paragraph in [[Summorum Pontificum]] that we are discussing. Perhaps we don't need the part that begins with "However, ..."
:::::By the way, does your article "Traditional Ambrosian Rite" need to be moved to something like "Traditional form of the Ambrosian Rite"? What ''Summorum Pontificum'' says of two forms of the one Roman Rite, not two rites, seems to apply also to the Ambrosian Rite. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 15:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Very well done. Yes, we could deleted from However onward mainly because these are not interesting details for the 99% people who read the Article. We could simply place a link: ''It concerns only the Roman Rite and does not deal with use of older forms of other Latin liturgical rites (as the [[Traditional Ambrosian Rite]]), which...''. Who is interested follows the link. About the name, I agree definitely with you. I checked it on the official web site of the diocese [http://www.chiesadimilano.it/or4/or?uid=ADMIesy.main.index&oid=240269&uidx_89=ADMIvenues.search.datiluogo&luogo=8295] and it uses ''Messa Latina Ambrosiana Antica'' (Latin Ancient Ambrosian Mass), but I've no a clear idea of how this ''ancient'' sounds in English. So the title you proposed is to prefer. [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 16:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::I have now removed the rather complicated remark beginning with "However, ..." With all due respect to the see of Milan, I think it best to have in the paragraph only one mention of the Ambrosian Rite. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 17:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC) :::::::: Well done ! [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 17:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
==St Anthony Mary Claret==
Thank you for correcting me and removing this saint from 23rd Oct. in the Roman calender as it was in 1954. I added the entry to the 62 calender earlier to-day, and, in the belief that St AM Claret had been canonized in 1934, I inserted the entry in the 1954 article as well. By the time I had realized my mistake, you had already spotted it. For, indeed, the saint bishop was beatified in 1934, canonized in 1950 and inserted into the general Roman calender only in 1960. [[User:Jonkjolstad|Jonkjolstad]] ([[User talk:Jonkjolstad|talk]]) 10:16, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
==Signing Articles==
Just letting you know that I do try to sign articles with the tilde, but this is what it gives me
<p>tooMuchData</p> 23:54, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
And that was four tildes! Anyway I'm just letting you know since you said hi over on my [[User talk:TheResearchPersona|talk]] page. And though you may think it's strange I've also begun placing a little comment after every set of tildes (at the actual end of my posts) for some fun with Wikipedia, so know I'm not double-explaining what's going on here. : ) <p>tooMuchData</p> 23:54, 26 October 2008 (UTC)<--(that's where the tilde's go, but it always says "too much data" and gives the date: so I'm guessing the system will autosign for me after this arrow--)--> <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:TheResearchPersona|TheResearchPersona]] ([[User talk:TheResearchPersona|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheResearchPersona|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> on whose Talk page I have replied. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 05:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
: Hi again; yes, I did insert the four tildes; but the system replaces them with the "too much data" followed by the date; here's my tildes broken-up so you can see my keyboard is working just fine: ~.~.~.~.: I do it in succession, as we're supposed to, and this happens (!):
<p>tooMuchData</p> 15:10, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, though. I don't get why this is, however I've heard of other people having the problem, though not very often. Someone on another forum once was talking about some kind of data-transfer (?) bug.
I think the problem may have to do with the transfer of data between machines, maybe different bits, or perhaps the internet connection in this area. The button thing doesn't work, though; thanks for communicating however! : )
== Life of Adam and Eve ==
Cosa è il caso di fare con le ultime modifiche nell'articolo sul cambio della sostanza? Iniziare una guerra di modifiche? Le chiedo cortesemente inoltre, se ha voglia e tempo, di dare un'occhiata col suo forbito inglese a [[Life of Adam and Eve]]. Grazie mille. [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 22:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
: Non so come ringraziarLa. Grazie ancora per il copyedit. [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 17:35, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
==East-West Schism==
Per your request [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AWilliam_M._Connolley&diff=254231275&oldid=254227603]. Now if you could email me for clarification please. You can do so off of my User Page at the bottom left.
[[User:LoveMonkey|LoveMonkey]] ([[User talk:LoveMonkey|talk]]) 14:37, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
==3rr on East-West Schism==
I added the Weasel tag into the article to get you to source more of your comments. Since the sourcing has been added to the article both of us editors [[User:Gubernatoria|Gubernatoria]] and LoveMonkey have agreed on the article talkpage to remove the tag and you have restore it repeatedly. You have edit warred and restored or removed out allot of other collaborative additions from both of us editors , you have done so including committing [[WP:3RR]] without addressing either of the comments made by us editors on the article talkpage. A 3 revert rule violation [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&action=edit§ion=22] has been posted against you.
[[User:LoveMonkey|LoveMonkey]] ([[User talk:LoveMonkey|talk]]) 19:57, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
== deleting fact tag ==
Lima, please don't delete a fact tag without providing the requested citation. Haven't we had this conversation before? [[User:Leadwind|Leadwind]] ([[User talk:Leadwind|talk]]) 21:01, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
:! [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 14:09, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
==Clement==
Could you have a look at the discussion of labeling Clement's martyrdom as "Legendary": [[Talk:Pope_Clement_I#.22legendary_martyrdom.22]]. This seems to be clearly POV to me, but I'd appreciate your input as well. Maybe I'm completely off base. Thanks. [[User:Dgf32|Dgf32]] ([[User talk:Dgf32|talk]]) 18:38, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
==Recent edit to [[Catholicism]]==
Just FYI, my last edit was about "official", which is ambiguous at best, not about whether "Catholic Church" is used only by the RCC or by others also. (As an example that RCC is not "incorrect" I offer St Patrick's{?) in Washington DC, which has, in stone, above the door, "St Patrick's Roman Catholic Church". Not certain if it's Patrick, alas, but it's near dupont circle AIR.) I have no disagreement with your refinement, but it's not really a reversion! [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 09:20, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
:I should have specified that I wasn't reverting just your edit, but was instead going back two steps. I apologize for giving the wrong impression. I agree fully with you on the question of the alleged "official" name. Unfortunately the issue-evading tactics of a couple of editors who act as if they own the article [[Roman Catholic Church]] are repeatedly driving to despair those who question their claim that the Church has a single "official" name. There is much weightier evidence than an inscription above the door of a church building that "Roman Catholic Church" is not "incorrect". Popes have used it. The Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity uses it repeatedly. It is used on the websites of bishops conferences and dioceses throughout the English-speaking world. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 09:55, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
==Dec 2008 ==
[[File:Arbol Navidad 03.gif|thumb|left|Merry Christmas]] [[User:History2007|History2007]] ([[User talk:History2007|talk]]) 20:13, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
== [[East-West Schism]] ==
Hi Lima,
Please read my proposal on [[Talk:East-West Schism#Theological issues]]. I think that LoveMonkey is putting a bit too much of the Orthodox POV into the article and, in general, making the article too heavy on the theological discussion. The theological discussion is a bit hard to follow, partly due to the "back and forth" style discussing first the Orthodox POV and then the Catholic POV and then back to the Orthodox view again. A concise summary of the issues would be better than the arguing back-and-forth style that is there now.
I'm also interested in getting your take on the article in general. It seems you are in a tussle with LoveMonkey and Leadwind. I can't tell from the edit summaries just what the underlying issues are.
--[[User:Richardshusr|Richard]] ([[User talk:Richardshusr|talk]]) 19:10, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:On the article in general, I think it has seriously deteriorated since a hyperactive editor added, especially since last November, so many anti-Western comments. There would be no trouble if these comnments were presented as those of certain Eastern writers, which is all that the citations show them to be. (Some of these writers show their hostility even by their terminology, referring to all the Latins as "Franks", a term used pejoratively at least in Greece.) But, when statements are falsely presented as Western teaching, what can I do but add quotations to show what the West actually does hold?
:On your idea of an article on "Theological differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church", I think it would in practice have to be lopsided. It would be difficult to find serious Catholic writers who attack doctrines, theology and practices of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Catholic theologians generally define their faith by what they believe (what the Church teaches), not in sectarian fashion by what they don't believe (their disagreements with others). [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 20:35, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
::LoveMonkey will hate this comment (he is watching this Talk Page) but I agree with you that the article "seriously deteriorated" since he added so much text. I agree that part of the problem is differentiating between a factual description of the two sides and a one-sided description of the two sides. But moreover the article just got too long for the average reader to read. The way I can tell is when it gets too long for me to read and I'm an above average reader. I am trying to get closer to the original article without simply deleting all of LoveMonkey's contributions which are valuable. That is why I created [[Catholic - Orthodox theological differences]]. I understand your point about this article being lopsided in practice. That is a different problem that has to be grappled with. For now, I want to work on making [[East-West Schism]] an article that can be read by average readers who want to know something about the schism without getting caught up in a deep theological discourse. --[[User:Richardshusr|Richard]] ([[User talk:Richardshusr|talk]]) 14:42, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
==Happy New Year==
And a happy new year too you too. [[User:History2007|History2007]] ([[User talk:History2007|talk]]) 20:39, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
== East-West Schism ==
Could you explain what you were doing with your last edit to "Extant disputes" which you described as correcting a misquotation? Looks like you left a misformed Fact tag but I didn't understand what the rest of the text was trying to do. Also, what are you trying to say with the Fact tag? --[[User:Richardshusr|Richard]] ([[User talk:Richardshusr|talk]]) 14:35, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
:Thanks for correcting the misformat. The misquotation I think I had in mind was "from ''himself'' (i.e. the Pope) and not from the consensus of the church" instead of from "of ''themselves'' (the definitions), and not by the consent of the Church"; but the omission of "to be held by the whole Church" was more important: the Council did not teach that ''all'' statements about faith or morals made even solemnly (as by a bull or encyclical etc.) by the Pope are infallible, but only those by which he defines a doctrine to be held by the whole Church. Misrepresenting the Pope's authority to appoint bishops as if it applied also within the patriarchates - the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches states the opposite - might also be called a misquotation, but for the fact that no source was given for it. As no source was given for other affirmations about which I have doubts, but do not have certainty that they are wrong. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 15:50, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
== History of the Papacy ==
Please read my comment on [[Talk:History of the Papacy#Spiritual vs. Temporal Power of the Papacy]]. The comment is addressed to you but I place it on the article talk page so as to provide a central point of discussion for other editors to provide their input.
--[[User:Richardshusr|Richard]] ([[User talk:Richardshusr|talk]]) 18:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
==Roman Catholic Church==
Lima, thank you for drawing this to my attention. Honestly, I've lost interest. This is a debate without resolution, since there is little room for compromise. I had thought a reasonable compromise had been made through the creative use of both names - but I see that the dissatisfaction of those who absolutely refuse to give or yield any quarter continues apace. The arguments I have had to make I have already made, and are on record. Essentially, "Catholic Church" is an ambiguous term, and one claimed by a number of disparate groups. There is only one "Roman Catholic Church," however. If you would find it helpful to reproduce this response in the discussion, you have my permission. [[User:Fishhead64|fishhead64]] ([[User talk:Fishhead64|talk]]) 05:50, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
==Rules for ambassadors==
The diplomatic norms make a distinction between politically supporting a controversial topic and actually acting on what was deemed illicit. For instance, I gave examples of diplomats who were refused not because they had an abortion but because they supported it politically. The French ambassador was not refused because he was gay, but because he was a gay activist. [http://www.la-croix.com/article/index.jsp?docId=2351570&rubId=4079] As for divorce, which is sometimes related to adultery, I suppose it only applies for Catholic diplomats, but then again in this particular case the Holy See has historically had a privileged relationship with Argentina, and can only interpret the nomination of such ambassadors as a sign of deteriorating relations. By the way, the phrase "gospel diplomacy" is from a 2006 speech by Secretary [[Dominique Mamberti]]. [http://infocatho.cef.fr/fichiers_html/archives/deuxmilsixsem/semaine46/26nx46eglisel.html] [[User:ADM|ADM]] ([[User talk:ADM|talk]]) 12:41, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
==[[Maundy Thursday]] vs [[Holy Thursday]]==
This point is still being hotly debated. If you're still interested in this matter, you may want to read the [[Talk:Maundy Thursday|current discussion]] and opine. Thanks and best wishes. --[[User:Boston|Boston]] ([[User talk:Boston|talk]]) 04:16, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
There is, as you know, an ongoing discussion at [[Talk:Maundy Thursday]] about the name of that article. I believe it is inappropriate for you to change links to [[Maundy Thursday]] to say [[Holy Thursday]] in advance of the resolution of that discussion. Indeed, the discussion's consensus clearly seems to be to keep the term "Maundy". In addition, your reference to Holy Thursday as "the official term in the Catholic Church" misses the point; there is no single official term in the Catholic Church, for the simple reason that (1) even the RCC includes churches which would never use that term, and (2) the RCC is not the only Catholic Church. It is certainly appropriate to use "Holy Thursday", I suppose, for articles which are locality-specific, along the lines of the same rule for English spelling (to prefer British spellings in UK-specific articles, and American spellings in US-specific articles), but otherwise, I believe that the term should be left alone, without wholesale changes of it. My first thought was to go through your recent raft of changes and revert some of them in accord with this proposal, but I thought I should discuss it first. So, to sum up:
* I think it is inappropriate for you to start making large numbers of changes when the relevant discussion has just reached a consensus opposite your own POV;
* I think that a "leave it alone" policy is best for things like this. [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 17:23, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
:I fully agree that there is no consensus for a change of the title of the [[Maundy Thursday]] article. I have not questioned that, nor do I now. On being invited to look at the article - which was not on my watchlist - I naturally had to study some of the matters it raised. As a result, I have had to correct some of my previous ideas, such as that in England the official (Roman) Catholic Roman-Rite liturgical books differed in that respect from those in other countries. I have made other discoveries too, and it was only right that I should make the necessary changes in the article in line with these discoveries, being careful to quote reliable sources for all of them. And it was only right, out of the hundreds of articles that link directly to "Maundy Thursday", to correct the 15 (no more) that I found wrongly presented the Roman-Rite liturgy or the Eastern Orthodox Church as using the term "Maundy Thursday". The discussion in which you are obviously taking a warm interest was on the title of the article, not on these matters. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 19:18, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
:: I must apologize for saying a "large number" of changes, or the "nearly all" comment on the talk page. Especially, I suggested you were being indiscriminate, and this was wrong. Still, your edits were not confined only to articles about the Roman Catholic liturgy, since they included a number of articles on generic liturgical topics hardly specific to Roman Catholics. I've asked about that on the talk page; it was silly of me to start two separate discussions at the same time. [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 23:54, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
==[[Tenebrae]]==
I didn't think [[Tenebrae]] is celebrated on Holy Saturday prior to the Easter Vigil, yet the Tenebrae article seems to indicate it was. Want to clarify the article? --[[User:Boston|Boston]] ([[User talk:Boston|talk]]) 16:01, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
*Nevermind. "Eve of" does of course mean the evening before, but reading casually I missed this point. I made a minor edit to help other readers avoid the same mistake. Thanks. --[[User:Boston|Boston]] ([[User talk:Boston|talk]]) 16:04, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
:I see you have clarified it yourself - I interrupt myself: there is no need to continue. I began to write this before noticing that you had put a second comment here. Cheers. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 16:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
::BTW, my anecdotal experience confirms that article's statement that "Tenebrae is no longer widely celebrated in the Roman Catholic Church, even on the Wednesday evening." I attended Tenebrae services at a [[Order of Saint Benedict|Benedictine]] [[Abbey]] this past Holy Week and a [[monsignor]] also in attendance said he hadn't been to one in many years. --[[User:Boston|Boston]] ([[User talk:Boston|talk]]) 05:17, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:::Of course. Since the time of Pius XII, and that's a long time ago, the Catholic Church does not allow Tenebrae except a) in cathedrals, b) that have the Chrism Mass on Thursday morning, c) and only on Wednesday evening, not Thursday or Friday evening. Indeed, since 1960, only shortly after the death of Pius XII, the full Tenebrae service seems not to be allowed, since only Matins (now called the Office of Readings), but not Lauds (often called in English, but not Latin, Morning Prayer) may be anticipated to the evening before. All the cathedrals I have had contact with in recent years celebrate the Chrism Mass on the Wednesday or even the Tuesday of Holy Week, so as to enable the clergy from more distant parishes to participate, without making then rush back to their own parishes to organize and celebrate the Mass of the Lord's Supper later on the same day. I suspect that, whenever the name "Tenebrae" is used nowadays, it almost always refers not to a genuine Tenebrae service, but to a celebration that someone has specially invented on his own initiative and to which he has, again on his own personal initiative, attached this name. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 06:50, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
::::At the [[Order of Saint Benedict|OSB]] [[abbey]] just mentioned, they did hold it Thursday and Friday night, it wasn't in a cathedral, and there was no chrism mass. It did seem to be a Tenebrae service in the strict sense, but if it was in fact just Vespers with all the trappings of Tenebrae I probably couldn't discern the difference. It is easy to imagine that is the case, but I have a feeling that they are allowed to conduct Tenebrae proper either through an individual dispensation for that abbey specifically, the OSB in general, or whatever. --[[User:Boston|Boston]] ([[User talk:Boston|talk]]) 07:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::Perhaps I can shed some light. Er, shadow? Tenebrae is just a special form of the daily office, as you know; and it was officially part of the Roman Breviary before the reform in the 60s. After that, it's no longer part of the Roman Breviary. So if you're using the Roman Breviary, tenebrae in its traditional form is gone. But there is no obligation on religious communities or dioceses to use the Roman Breviary (or the Roman Ritual, for that matter), and as it happens, use of the Roman Breviary is fairly uncommon in the RC religious communities I have had occasion to worship with. Nearly all maintain their own forms of the office, which is surely the case for the Benedictine monastery you were worshipping at. [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 14:29, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
::::::I think we all agree that Tenebrae in its strict traditional meaning (but should we stick to that meaning?) is gone or all but gone. If Boston's Benedictines celebrate Vespers with the trappings of Tenebrae, it is a much shorter service than the old-time Matins and Lauds, which had nine psalms (plus the invitatory psalm) plus the corresponding lessons for Matins, followed by Lauds with five psalms. Thanks also for the interest shown by Tb. For my part, I would say that the Roman Breviary ''as revised in 1970'' and now called the Liturgy of the Hours is still obligatory for Roman Catholic diocesan clergy. Benedictines have always had their own Liturgy of the Hours, and today they, or at least some of them, still recite the whole Psalter within one week, while the Roman Liturgy of the Hours now spreads the psalms over four weeks. Pius XII's reform of Holy Week made in general no change with regard to obligation (maybe by "religious communities" Tb means communities of nuns, not clergy). Before and after his reform there was the same obligation to celebrate Matins and Lauds in one form or another, not necessarily in Tenebrae form. However, since the reform, those who take part in the Mass of the Lord's Supper or the Good Friday afternoon service do not say Vespers, the place of which is taken by those services (as the Easter Vigil service takes the place of, or is, the Easter Day Office of Readings). Is it possible that Boston's Benedictines celebrate on Thursday and Friday not Vespers but the Office of Readings of the next day? This would be considerably longer than Vespers. Besides, I don't know whether Benedictines perhaps add a celebration of Vespers to their celebration of the Mass of the Lord's Supper and the Good Friday celebration of the Passion. Maybe they celebrate Vespers and follow it up immediately with the Office of Readings of the next day. I don't think they can combine both of them into a single celebration in the way that the Office of Readings may be combined into a single service with one of the canonical hours ''of the same day''. But if they celebrate both, one after another, they have a lengthy service in the style of old-time Tenebrae, but with Vespers instead of Lauds. These are idle reflections, I don't know enough on the matter nor have I enough of an itch to study it rather than just to express my impressions. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 15:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Two separate points. 1) Diocesan clergy are bound to celebrate the liturgy of the hours, in accord with the use of their diocese. Nearly every diocese uses the Roman Breviary, but there is no obligation ''on the diocese'' to use that office (or the Roman Ritual, for its material). Religious clergy are equally bound to the office, but ''not'' to the Roman Breviary, they are bound to the use of their order, whether the order uses the Roman Breviary or something else. The freedom of a religious community to order its own office is very high. The Camaldolese Benedictines in Big Sur, for example, have their own office, with a totally different arrangement of psalms, a different way of using canticles, longer scripture readings, and so forth, and in general they do not follow the prescriptions of the Roman Breviary, because they are simply not bound to it. The clerics in the community are bound to celebrate the office ''of the order'', and the lay monks as well, but not the Roman Breviary. Likewise a diocese can--though few do any more--have its own form of office, which need not follow the Roman pattern in detail or in general. So yes--the clergy ''are'' obligated to say the office, but they are ''not'' obligated to say the Roman form; rather, they are obligated to say the form prescribed by their ordinary; most bishops prescribe the Roman form, and a great many religious communities (of both men and women) use their own form. The freedom to use their own form includes all the freedom to decide such things as anticipation of offices, special forms of service, combining hours, and all the rest; to say that it's not ''really'' Tenebrae because the current Roman Breviary has no such office misses the point. The Benedictines have '''never''' used the Roman office. [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 17:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
::::::::[[User:Lima|Lima]], speaking of "idle reflections", I reflectively idled at length at [[User:Boston/Ecclesiology]] in response to something [[User:Tb|Tb]] and I were discussing. Feel free to comment there, ''or not'', as you wish. Likewise, either of you can move any relevant discussion you wish to that page (this [[Tenebrae]] talk, for example) at a point where it's dominating your talk page in a way you don't like. --[[User:Boston|Boston]] ([[User talk:Boston|talk]]) 17:54, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Of course orders of monks have their own forms of the liturgy of the hours. I myself mentioned that. But when you talk of the diocesan clergy being obligated to follow whatever use their ordinary prescribes, you are not speaking about the Roman Catholic Church. Except where there is a distinct liturgical rite - practically speaking, today only the Ambrosian - diocesan priests throughout the Latin Church are obliged to follow the Roman Rite, to use the Roman Missal and the Roman Breviary in either its pre-1970 or its post-1970 form. Even the national and diocesan calendar is based on the General Roman Calendar in accordance with the rules laid down in the latter. Where modifications are envisaged, as for instance on the calendar, it is the bishops conference, by a majority of at least two thirds of its membership, and not the individual bishop, which decides, and that decision must be confirmed by the Holy See before taking effect.
And I don't understand what you mean when you say that the "current" Roman Breviary "has no such office" (as Tenebrae). The Roman Breviary ''never'' had an office of Tenebrae. It had Matins and Lauds, and has never lost them. Tenebrae was simply a particularly solemn way of celebrating Matins and Lauds of Holy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday, with the extinguishing of candles, with a special chant tone used only for the Lamentationes Ieremiae Prophetae in Matins, a tone that continues to be used when the Lamentations are chanted, etc. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 19:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:When I refer to local rituals or breviaries, I'm pretty sure you're incorrect. It's a common misunderstanding. My reference is the excellent annotated edition of the Code of Canon Law produced by CLSA. The Roman Breviary and Ritual have never been imposed, and many places (France, for example) have long had a different Ritual--though, certainly, very similar to the Roman one. This is a quite independent issue of the new one of translations. It is the case that in English-speaking countries there has never been any variation from the Roman Ritual and Breviary since the standardization after Trent, so that English-speakers are often unaware of the variations around the world on this score. When I say that the old office "had Tenebrae" I mean exactly what you refer to: the careful ritual directions for how Matins and Lauds were to be celebrated on those days, and that those directions have now been withdrawn, and indeed, could not even be executed for the reasons you described before (timing of the offices, for example). I think you will find if you look carefully, that the use of the Roman Missal is obligatory (except where there is an "immemorial custom" to the contrary), but that the Roman Ritual and Breviary are not. The issue of calendars is a slightly separate one. [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 19:37, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:We have a nice reference here. See [[Roman Ritual]]: "unlike the other books of the Roman Rite, the Ritual has never been imposed as the only standard...many countries have local customs for Marriage, the visitation of the sick, etc., numerous special blessings, processions and sacramentals not found in the Roman book, still printed in various diocesan Rituals. It is then by no means the case that every priest of the Roman Rite uses the Roman Ritual. Very many dioceses or provinces still have their own local handbooks under the name of Rituale or another (Ordo administrandi sacramenta, etc.), though all of these conform to the Roman text in the chief elements." The article on the [[Breviary]] suggests that the case there is not quite as I had remembered. Instead, Pius V did make it obligatory on all dioceses (save those with immemorial custom otherwise), but the ensuing centuries showed a great deal of local variation in practice, especially in France. So I was more or less wrong about that one, and right about the Ritual. [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 19:42, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
::Ritual: yes. Breviary (and Missal): that was in the past (see, for instance [[Roman Missal#History|this]]). [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 05:00, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
==Barnstar==
{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" valign="middle" | [[Image:Christian_Barnstar.png|100px]]
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|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The Christianity Barnstar'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Message sent to "via airmail to [[Lima]] from [[Boston]]": This [[Easter Week|Bright Week]] seems like an appropriate occasion to thank you for improving Wikipedia through your valuable contributions to articles about [[Christianity]] in general and about [[Roman Catholicism]] in particular. Keep up the good work and may the gentle hands of [[angel]]s guide your actions on Wikipedia and off. -- [[User:Boston|Boston]] ([[User talk:Boston|talk]]) 07:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
|}
== Nope ==
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_early_Christianity&curid=12841324&diff=283979999&oldid=283960390] Quite right! (It is worth noting) :) [[User:Vassyana|Vassyana]] ([[User talk:Vassyana|talk]]) 18:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
:You removed a reference to a site that could be taken to suggest that it is ''only'' the oldest extant manuscript (singular) that (once) had "chrestianos". I take it that your reference to "the earliest and most reliable manuscripts" (plural) is correct, though I have no access to Theissen & Merz, the source that you kept in the article. Do you think it would be worth your while checking and perhaps revising [[Tacitus on Christ]], which deals with the same question and cites the source you have eliminated (no doubt quite justifiably as insignificant in comparison to the other)? I am not competent to deal with it. The reference also appears in [[The Beast (Bible)]] and maybe elsewhere. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 20:11, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
::If I ever alter anything per a source or add a source that you do not have access to, please ask and I will gladly provide some quotations. (In this case, the additional "s" was an error on my part. The source states the singular.) I'll take a look over the other articles. If I don't edit those articles or make some talk page comments on them by Monday, please leave me a bright orange bar reminder by posting on my talk page. --[[User:Vassyana|Vassyana]] ([[User talk:Vassyana|talk]]) 23:51, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
==Almost reverted you==
I see you're working on Issa in Islam, I was about to revert a mass delete of yours, until I saw your edit history, good fortune on wikipedia, in sh'allah! [[User:Ronabop|Ronabop]] ([[User talk:Ronabop|talk]])
:Thanks. To say I am working on Issa in Islam is attributing too much to me. I don't know enough about that field to dare to set about doing that. All I did was to replace, in that one section of one article, some long quotations of texts from the Qur'an with links to the texts, as was/is done with texts from the Christian or Jewish Scriptures. Although I thought the rest of the text of the section was somewhat repetitious, I left it unaltered except for some grammar corrections and a more logical order of two of the paragraphs. السلام عليكم [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 07:00, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
== [[Christian Church]] lead ==
Thanks for restoring that text to the lead of [[Christian Church]]. I was also bothered by the recent change. But also, the lead is now huge. I think the lead should be smaller, and certainly is not a good place for a list of different theological positions on such a complex issue. (Though the recent change made it seem as if there was a Protestant view, and then Catholic/Orthodox objections to that view, and nothing else; '''entirely''' unsatisfactory - hence my delight that you have made your own recent edit.) What would make a good lead here?! [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 19:37, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
== Lucifer edit ==
Hi, Lima. I think you may be wrong to change the reference to Lucifer in Ovid from the masculine "he" to "it." Personification is the point of the passage; otherwise the military metaphor is nonsensical. All the celestial bodies in the Phaethon passage are anthropomorphic, including and especially the Sun, who is Phaethon's "biological" father (if gods are biological). I can find no published translations of this passage that refer to Lucifer as "it." Rolfe Humphries' often jocular translation doesn't use a pronoun for Lucifer, but refers to the ''stellae'' as "who". The Penguin prose translation, which used prose for the express purpose of keeping close to the literal meaning, translates "leaving his post in heaven last of all." The poetic translation of Melville in Oxford UP's World Classics series goes "The stars took flight, in marshalled order set/By Lucifer who left his station last." The Loeb Classical Library translation (in the 1977 printing), also in prose, has "The stars all flee away, and the morning star closes their ranks as, last of all, he departs from his watch-tower in the sky." (What strikes me as odd from the Loeb is that, although the translation preserves the personification with an abundance of pronouns, "morning star" is lowercase.) The passage in Ovid is a ''locus classicus'' for the question of Lucifer precisely because it shows Lucifer at the head of an "army." If ''Lucifer'' were conceived of as an "it" in Latin, a neuter noun could be used; the noun is explicitly masculine, as is emphasized by its modifier ''novissimus''. This requires distinguishing between grammatical gender and personal gender; it might be, but wouldn't always be, appropriate to translate references to heavenly bodies in Lucretius with a rationalistic or scientific "it," as is the case in the astronomical passages cited from Pliny ''et al.'' on Lucifer. But to refer to a heavenly body as an "it" in the ''Metamorphoses'', especially in the Phaethon passage, doesn't accurately represent what's happening in terms of the poetry and myth, when read in context. Moreover, there is a later tradition (not necessary to go into for the article) that seems to suggest that Phaethon ''was'' Lucifer, or at least a "Luciferian" figure as a mythic type — this was a notion particularly beloved by the Romantics, I think, and probably at least attributed to the "Gnostics." [[User:Cynwolfe|Cynwolfe]] ([[User talk:Cynwolfe|talk]]) 14:59, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
:The Latin word "Lucifer" (Day Star) is grammatically masculine and is accompanied by grammatically masculine adjectives, without thereby necessarily personifying the object that it refers too, any more than the masculine grammatical gender of "liber" (book), "gladius" (sword), "nasus" (nose) personified these objects. That aside, you are probably correct about the personification in this case. I must see what I can do to correct the article. Unfortunately, I must rush out now, and don't have time to look at the article immediately. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 15:31, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
::What you say about grammatical gender in general is true; it is not true of the heavenly bodies as they are personified in the Phaethon episode of Ovid's ''Metamorphoses'', which is all about the sky as a populated place that mirrors earth. My point is mainly that published translations from scholarly sources (Oxford UP and the LCL, among others) provide verification that in this passage Lucifer and his star-legions, along with the other celestial phenomena, are anthropomorphic and hence "gendered." (As in the post-coital Aurora passage from Statius that's also excerpted in the article.) I find no verification that Lucifer in Ovid's passage is ever seen as an impersonal "it"; to argue for Lucifer as an "it" would constitute original research that's contradicted by multiple published sources. [[User:Cynwolfe|Cynwolfe]] ([[User talk:Cynwolfe|talk]]) 18:15, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
:::I am back, and I find you are of course right about the personification. I think it best to avoid adding interpretation to Ovid's text. (That is also what Wikipedia rules demand.) So I am just giving Ovid's text, with the context of the appearance of Dawn, to explain the disappearance of the stars. To this I am adding an English translation, as in the other quotations from Latin writers in the article. I have chosen a modern prose translation rather than the slightly older [http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses2.html Brookes More translation:] "The vigilant Aurora opened forth her purple portals from the ruddy east, disclosing halls replete with roses. All the stars took flight, while Lucifer, the last to quit his vigil, gathered that great host and disappeared from his celestial watch." You may prefer to replace it with a different and more poetic English translation. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 19:29, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
== Williamson, msg ==
Hello, why don't you go to school and learn something before writing stupidities in this encyclopedia ?
Your dear friend, David Thalberg <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/88.166.140.196|88.166.140.196]] ([[User talk:88.166.140.196|talk]]) 19:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
== Two Witnesses ==
I think there this Article ([[Two Witnesses]]) that need some attention, because it includes statements like ''some claim that the notion of a yet future 70th Week of Daniel is a Catholic (Jesuit) conspiracy''. Could you please have a look on it? I don't know where to start. Thanks [[User:A ntv|A ntv]] ([[User talk:A ntv|talk]]) 20:48, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
:I'm sorry, but I don't feel like doing anything to this article, which is full of curious ideas. Among those curious ideas is the one you mention. If the cited source does make the claim or report on its existence, let it be. If it does not, mark it with <nowiki>{{Verification failed|date=...}}. </nowiki> [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 14:14, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
==Communion in the hand==
Another liturgical topic which might deserve a separate entry is [[communion in the hand]], which has been the object of ecclesiastical debates since the 1970s, with a silent majority that is accepting of the practice, while a vocal minority continues to oppose it. [[User:ADM|ADM]] ([[User talk:ADM|talk]]) 11:33, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
:What would you add to what is already in the "Criticisms of practices" section? How small is the "vocal" minority: 0.1% of Catholics or less? [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima|talk]]) 14:08, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
::The Pope (Benedict XVI) favours communion in the hand, he has given it in public, and many of his liturgical advisors have tried to slowly re-implement the practice. Don't you know about them ? [[User:ADM|ADM]] ([[User talk:ADM|talk]]) 14:15, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Curious copying here of material from [[Talk:Mass of Paul VI]], where I have replied. [[User:Lima|Lima]] ([[User talk:Lima#top|talk]]) 14:55, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
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