Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sabrina Batshon (2nd nomination): Difference between revisions
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:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.''
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The result was '''merge to [[Australian Idol (season 7)#Sabrina Batshon]]'''. The keep arguments based on limited recent press coverage and her fan base are weak, and the argument that she doesn't pass [[WP:MUSIC]] is well argued. There is material here that would be lost in a redirect, so my interpretation of the debate is a merge. [[User:Fences and windows|<span style="background-color:white; color:red;">Fences</span>]]<span style="background-color:white; color:grey;">&</span>[[User talk:Fences and windows|<span style="background-color:white; color:black;">Windows</span>]] 17:51, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
===[[Sabrina Batshon]]===
<div class="infobox" style="width:50%">AfDs for this article:<ul class="listify">{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sabrina Batshon}}</ul></div>
:{{la|Sabrina Batshon}} – <includeonly>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sabrina Batshon (2nd nomination)|View AfD]])</includeonly><noinclude>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2009 November
:({{findsources|Sabrina Batshon}})
This page has been previously deleted, as per [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sabrina Batshon]]. This page has been recreated because of a brief appearance on reality television show [[Australian Idol]]. This appearance alone does not assert notability, as per the exclusion of a separate Wikipedia article for most of the contestants on Australian Idol, with notable exceptions of winners and contestants who have had charted, successful record careers. Other assertions of notability (as discussed in the previous deletion discussions) are a mention in the speech of a politician and performances at talent shows at RSL's, which are local, town-wide competitions. Meadia coverage has been incidental to the show, and non-reliable sources such as forum posts have been used. Subject is not notable per [[WP:MUSIC]] due to not having any charted music and not meeting any of the criterion. The only thing that makes it any different than the last deletion is the Australian Idol appearance, which was brief and insignificant. [[User:Hoogiman|Hoogiman]] ([[User talk:Hoogiman|talk]]) 12:13, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
*<small class="delsort-notice">'''Note''': This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Bands and musicians|list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions]]. <!--Template:Delsort--></small><small>—<
::'''Keep''', find it totally reliable because of the Australian Idol appearence, why should American Idol's have articles and Australian Idol's not?. She has also won a lot of talent competition and her appearence was neither brief nor insignificant. [[User:Facha93|Facha93]] ([[User talk:Facha93|talk]]) 02:27, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
::*'''Comment''': Talent competitions do '''not''' assert notability, especially local talent competitions. American Idol is the top rated television programme, and perhaps the winners and contestants are more culturally significant with more media coverage and charted singles of their performances on the show. The subject of this article does not pass [[WP:MUSIC]] and if you view ''Notable alumni'' on the [[Australian Idol]] article, very few non-top 2 Australian Idol contestants have their own articles, and if they do, they pass [[WP:MUSIC]] with '''charted singles''', which are an indication of notability. The subject of this article has ''no'' charted music. It has been previously determined as per a previous deletion discussion that the subject is not notable, and several brief appearances on a television show does not make the subject any more notable. Per [[WP:BIO]], ''trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability.'' The sources of notability asserted on the article are trivial and related to the show itself. Given all of this, how is the subject notable?[[User:Hoogiman|Hoogiman]] ([[User talk:Hoogiman|talk]]) 03:34, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
:::If u though a comment on my talk page will make me change my mind, you were wrong. Although it's true that she doesn't has any charted music, Idol hasn't finished and no alumnee has released any single before the show ends. I still think she is reliable and that she passes the notability status and if u don't think she passes now, in the future she will. 19:22, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[[User:Facha93|Facha93]] ([[User talk:Facha93|talk]])
::::*'''Comment''': How does she pass the notability test? You still haven't given any single ''valid'' reason, and I have outlined in my original post why things such as local talent shows do not make the subject notable. Does she pass any of the critereon in [[WP:BIO]] or [[WP:MUSIC]]? I would argue all (which is very little) media coverage is trivial or incidental, and the subject is not currently notable. Even if it passes one or two criteria, this does not make the subject notable, with the '''may''' on the policy page. Note that it seems user lacks familiarity with the policies [[WP:BIO]] and [[WP:MUSIC]] or at least, in referencing them. Could you point out sections of Wikipedia policy that make this subject notable? [[User:Hoogiman|Hoogiman]] ([[User talk:Hoogiman|talk]]) 22:07, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::*'''Comment''': additionally, preempting notability does not actually mean the subject is currently notable. Also, if we examine the impact of Australian Idol on the music industry [[List of music releases from Australian Idol contestants]], only a few contestants from the last three years have had an impact on the local charts. A brief appearance on a show does not create notability in itself. [[User:Hoogiman|Hoogiman]] ([[User talk:Hoogiman|talk]]) 22:14, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
::::::U're getting really annoying, she pasess the criteria in [[WP:MUSIC]] in number 9, 10 and 12. [[User:Facha93|Facha93]] ([[User talk:Facha93|talk]]) 23:35, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::::'''Comment''' In [[WP:MUSIC]] No. 9 is the only critereon that would be even remotely close for notability. Coming in 10th place in Australian Idol itself does not warrant notability, as per the only Australian Idol being notable the ones with a '''commercial release''', listed in [[List of music releases from Australian Idol contestants]]. Luke Dickens, the runner-up of last year's competition is not notable enough for his own page, and to keep with the consistency of editorial concerning this subject, coming in 10th is not notable in itself. For No. 10, the compilation album for a choir has never charted and No. 12 would be a separate broadcast for this person. Once again, this article has been previously deleted, the only thing that has changed since last time is an appearance on idol, which given my reasons outlined above does not assert notability in itself. Subject is not currently a significant contributor to Australian music and is currently not notable. [[User:Hoogiman|Hoogiman]] ([[User talk:Hoogiman|talk]]) 23:58, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Here are a couple more articles:
http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/who/celebrity-interviews/article/-/6190872/australian-idol-farewells-sabrina-batshon/
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/entertainment/tv/australian-idol-evictee-sabrina-batshon-declares-the-show-a-fake-and-needs-new-judges/story-e6frf9ho-1225780791280
Along with the Daily Telegraph coverage already cited, that's more than enough to satisfy criterion #1 of [[WP:MUSIC]]. [[User:Contains Mild Peril|Contains Mild Peril]] ([[User talk:Contains Mild Peril|talk]]) 14:08, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''': Does a couple of articles assert notability? I'd assume that there's an obligation to cover idol and an interview is going to happen regardless.
[[http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/who/latest-news/article/-/6191134/em-australian-em-em-idol-em-ashleigh-toole-is-the-first-to-go/]]
[[http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/who/celebrity-interviews/article/-/6191009/em-australian-em-em-idol-em-farewell-casey-barnes/]]
::Places 11th and 12th got an interview on the same site (this news site interviews all idols), and I'd imagine news coverage in [[WP:MUSIC]] would be related to some kind of contribution to the field of music, as opposed to obligatory for a show.
Wait... it seems every idol in the Top 12 gets an interview from this site... does that make all of these idols notable now?
[[http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/who/celebrity-interviews/article/-/6390925/em-australian-em-em-idol-em-kate-cook-hangs-up-her-hat/]]
::The second article you point out is sensationalist news for drama, and I'd argue that this article is not particularly extensive coverage. Like before, articles in the Herald Sun cover every idol, so I'm not convinced this asserts separate notability.
::Now the critereon says: ''Has been the subject of multiple '''non-trivial''' published works whose source is independent from the musician or ensemble itself and reliable.''
::I would say these news articles are quite trivial to the show of Australian Idol. Are there any news sources that assert notability outside of a single appearance? If anything this only would denote inclusion on the Australian Idol page itself. It doesn't assert any particular contribution to music by this artist which asserts notability. Note the '''may''' in the top of [[WP:MUSIC]]... I believe it requires more than a couple of weekly-reserved-for-idol news articles to make a subject notable. Any significant non-idol coverage or coverage at all for that matter? [[User:Hoogiman|Hoogiman]] ([[User talk:Hoogiman|talk]]) 22:41, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
*'''Additional Comment''': I'd like to argue that contestants on these music shows are analogous to members of a band. It would be notable if contestants won the show and produced a record, but just like in a band, if there are so significant contributions '''outside''' the band to music, the subject is not notable. Similarly, all coverage of this subject relates to the '''progression''' of idol and if there is no contribution outside of idol, how is the subject worthy enough of their own article? [[User:Hoogiman|Hoogiman]] ([[User talk:Hoogiman|talk]]) 22:49, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
:*The terms "trivial" and "non-trivial" are defined in [[WP:MUSICBIO]]:
<blockquote>
This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, books, magazine articles, online versions of print media, and television documentaries[note 2] except for the following:
* Any reprints of press releases, other publications where the musician or ensemble talks about themselves, and all advertising that mentions the musician or ensemble, including manufacturers' advertising.[note 3]
* Works comprising merely trivial coverage, such as articles that simply report performance dates, release information or track listings, or the publications of contact and booking details in directories.
* Articles in a school or university newspaper (or similar) would generally be considered trivial but should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.
</blockquote>
::The cited coverage therefore fits the definition of non-trivial: it is about the subject specifically rather than, for example, a mere list of which contestants progressed to particular stages of the competition; it goes into significant detail, and involves editorial input. The fact that the coverage in other media stems from her Australian Idol appearance does not in itself make it trivial: I would even argue that this strengthens rather than weakens the case for notability. Many TV viewers know of her and some will seek further information. Why should we restrict this when it is verifiable and complies with current policy as written? [[User:Contains Mild Peril|Contains Mild Peril]] ([[User talk:Contains Mild Peril|talk]]) 03:01, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
:::*Perhaps trivial is the wrong term that I used. I'll now point to [[WP:NOTNEWS]] in ''Routine news coverage of such things as announcements, sports, and tabloid journalism are not sufficient basis for an article.'' I'd put this more along the lines of tabloid journalism, and as per my comment at ''22:49, 16 November 2009'', every subject on this show gets routine news coverage. Independently significant? I'd doubt it. I meant trivial in the sense of, incidental to a regular coverage of a show, not trivial in the sense that is on that page you pointed out. Also, note the '''may''' in the policy. Just because of about... ...three incidental news articles, most of which are tabloid-like does not assert notability. As per [[WP:NOTNEWS]], this regular coverage (as outlines with the articles for EVERY contestant on the show) does not make the subject an independently notable person outside of the show. I'll ask this again... what makes this subject significant outside of the show that creates notability as a separate subject? There is none in this current point in time, which is why the subject is not notable. [[User:Hoogiman|Hoogiman]] ([[User talk:Hoogiman|talk]]) 04:41, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
:::*Once again, the only reason for ''notability'' is the show itself, in which I will refer to my band/band member, TV show/TV contestant analogy. By your definition, any reality show participant who has even had minor coverage outside the show, or a recap conerning them is notable? [[List of The Amazing Race (U.S. TV series) contestants|The Amazing Race]] has had 334 contestants in the show's history, and every contestant has some form of coverage in relation to the show. (For example, interviews, which is one of your assertions of notability and recaps, which is another form of a news article you gave.) Now, because of this minor coverage... are all 334 contestants, despite more than 90 percent only being significant to the show itself, now notable subjects worthy of their own articles? I think [[WP:NOTNEWS]] might be the refutation for the sources you've listed. [[User:Hoogiman|Hoogiman]] ([[User talk:Hoogiman|talk]]) 04:46, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
*'''Redirect''' (and maybe merge some stuff) to [[Australian Idol (season 7)]]. The coverage has been about her on Idol. No notability outside Idol. [[User:Duffbeerforme|Duffbeerforme]] ([[User talk:Duffbeerforme|talk]]) 03:07, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' I beleive Sabrina does meet the Notability (music) criteria as is defined under sections 9 & 10:
9.Has won or 'placed' in a major music competition.
10.Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g. a theme for a network television show, 'performance in a television show' or notable film, inclusion on a notable 'compilation album', etc.
Sabrina headlined 2 songs, and performed alongside the Australian Girl's Choir and the National Boy's Choir for a [[Sony]] produced album "The Spirit Of Australia" Release Date: 10.11.00
"In November 1998 Song Zu produced the album "Australia's Christmas Spirit" on behalf of QANTAS, featuring the Australian Girl's Choir and the National Boy's Choir. The album went on to be a phenomenal commercial and public relations success, selling 71,000 copies and raising $410,000 for the Starlight Children's Foundation." http://www.sonymusic.com.au/artist/info.do?artistId=100346
Sabrina placed 10th in a major music compition, [[Australian Idol]] and hgad also won the McDonald’s Performing Arts Challenge, in the open age Contemporary Vocal solo section.
Just becuase none of the other idols have wiki pages doesnt mean anything, and in fact Ricki Lee Coulter and Paulini have wiki pages and they didnt win the show either. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Nymphonicz|Nymphonicz]] ([[User talk:Nymphonicz|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nymphonicz|contribs]]) 08:55, 20 November 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
<hr style="width:50%;" />
::*Generally speaking, "placed" is taken to mean "top three finish". 10th is I suspect not what those that crafted that guideline had in mind when they added it. [[User:Lankiveil|Lankiveil]] <sup>([[User talk:Lankiveil|speak to me]])</sup> 08:31, 28 November 2009 (UTC).
:*'''Comment''': Firstly, the two artists you mentioned have '''successful, independent, charted commercial releases'''. Note this is a fundraiser album, and upon searching australian-charts.com, this said album has no entry and hence, has not charted. [[http://australian-charts.com/search.asp?search=choir&cat=a]] That is my first point... perhaps the singles were presented to QANTAS passengers, but it does not seem to be significant commercial release. That being said, if it is, then it is the choir itself that is notable. Notice how on this ''catalogue'' page that you quote, there is no mention of Sabrina Batshon... ...at all? Just because one sings on two tracks, this is not strong enough to be an subject independent of a choir. What makes the figures of this publisher less reliable is how there is no record of this album charting. Notice the '''may''' on the policy page, and this argument treads a very fine line.
:Secondly, the performing arts challenge seems to be a corporate-organised, non-notable competition. I'd compare the notability of this competition to any local talent quest. There seems to be barely any coverage of this subject. Secondly, 10th place is not notability in itself for a separate article. Read my comments above and I give many reasons for this, one of the ones I would point out is the band/band member analogy, and this subject is not notable separate of idol itself. The two other idols you mentioned have multiple albums. Notice how the runner-up last year is not notable enough for a separate page? [[User:Hoogiman|Hoogiman]] ([[User talk:Hoogiman|talk]]) 23:21, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
:<span style="color:#FF4F00;">'''[[WP:RELIST|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.'''</span><br /><small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:Spartaz|Spartaz]] <sup>''[[User talk:Spartaz|Humbug!]]''</sup> 07:14, 21 November 2009 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:Relist -->
*'''Merge/redirect to [[Australian Idol (season 7)#Sabrina Batshon]]''' Having reviewed the sources presented above (http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/who/celebrity-interviews/article/-/6190872/australian-idol-farewells-sabrina-batshon/ and http://www.heraldsun.com.au/entertainment/tv/australian-idol-evictee-sabrina-batshon-declares-the-show-a-fake-and-needs-new-judges/story-e6frf9ho-1225780791280), I do not see notability outside of Australian Idol. A [http://news.google.com/archivesearch?um=1&cf=all&&q=%22Sabrina+Batshon%22 Google News Archive search] returns either unrelated results or articles that discuss Sabrina Batshon's involvement with Australian Idol.<p>In response to {{user|Nymphonicz}}: placing 10th does not establish notability; if Sabrina Batshon were to place in the top three, she would possibly pass [[Wikipedia:Notability (music)]]. Winning the McDonald's Performing Arts Challenge does not establish notability because the McDonald's Performing Arts Challenge is not notable. Headlining two songs for a [http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=%22The+Spirit+Of+Australia%22+Sony&btnG=Search&um=1&scoring=a non-notable] album also does not establish notability. [[User:Cunard|Cunard]] ([[User talk:Cunard|talk]]) 07:58, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
*<small class="delsort-notice">'''Note''': This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Australia|list of Australia-related deletion discussions]]. <!--Template:Delsort--></small> -- [[User:Canley|Canley]] ([[User talk:Canley|talk]]) 01:16, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
*'''Redirect''' to Australian Idol. The subject fails to meet the criteria at [[WP:MUSICBIO]]. [[User:WWGB|WWGB]] ([[User talk:WWGB|talk]]) 02:50, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' I think Sabrina has a large enough fan base to have a wikipedia entry <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/60.241.176.178|60.241.176.178]] ([[User talk:60.241.176.178|talk]]) 00:26, 25 November 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:*'''Comment''': I don't think this comment follows along with any of the discussion or reasons against proposed in this deletion discussion. How is she independently notable of Idol? How does she pass [[WP:MUSIC]]? How does she pass [[WP:BIO]]? 1. This article has been previously deleted, because the subject is not notable. 2. The only extra assertion of notability with the recreate is an Idol appearance, which is not notable enough to be worthy of an own page. A mention in the Australian Idol season page would suffice. [[User:Hoogiman|Hoogiman]] ([[User talk:Hoogiman|talk]]) 07:23, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
::You make some good points, but isn't it generally considered good practice to have separate linked articles rather than detailed sections in articles which whose length may become cumbersome? [[User:Contains Mild Peril|Contains Mild Peril]] ([[User talk:Contains Mild Peril|talk]]) 09:54, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
*'''Redirect''' to [[Australian_Idol_(season_7)#Sabrina_Batshon]], does not meet [[WP:BIO]] or [[WP:MUSIC]]. [[User:Lankiveil|Lankiveil]] <sup>([[User talk:Lankiveil|speak to me]])</sup> 08:31, 28 November 2009 (UTC).
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.'' <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>
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