Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely
Latest comment: 1 year ago by WWGB in topic Name of killer
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Requested move 4 May 2023
 | The request to rename this article to Killing of Jordan Neely has been carried out.
If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag. |
Death of Jordan Neely → Killing of Jordan Neely – It has already been ruled a homicide, several reliable sources call it a killing (e.g., [1], [2], [3], etc.), and the article clearly mentions Jordan being killed. This is usually the norm followed in similar articles at this stage of the investigation, when it has been established as a killing but not necessarily as a murder, e.g., for Eric Garner. (See also this discussion.) Bubka42 (talk) 11:05, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support, I had considered making this move request myself. --Pokelova (talk) 11:31, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support It is an objective truth (the medical examiner's office has confirmed that it was a homicide), so it would be a more accurate article's title. Salvabl (talk) 12:34, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support This follows WP:KILLINGS and WP:KILLINGOF article naming convention advice, and is WP:CONSISTENT with similar articles. However, would oppose the term "murder", unless and until a person was convicted of that crime. Must also consider WP:CRIME, and that this matter is at an early stage in the investigation. Although the term "killing" is factual, "death" could still be seen as a more neutral term. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 12:51, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Death is a far more neutral term. Also cannot and absolutely should not be called a killing considering the main person involved has been released without any charge. RossButsy (talk) 14:28, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Please, note that "killing" is not exactly the same as "murder". Salvabl (talk) 14:31, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- I agree "killing" is not exactly the same as "murder" - one is what happened and one is what a court might decide. So I would support the changing it from "death," which hit me more like a cover-up than anything, sorry. So sorry, this is so disturbing I had to reach out. - Nori Nmuster (talk) 20:31, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Please, note that "killing" is not exactly the same as "murder". Salvabl (talk) 14:31, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support per guideline essays, other articles, and the fact his death has been ruled a homicide only confirms it. Skynxnex (talk) 14:47, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- And who has ruled this a homicide? The authorities? No. The governor? No. RossButsy (talk) 15:09, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Hi @RossButsy, the medical examiner did. Mean doesn't mean the person who did it was a murder but it was homicide (so not an accident or "natural" causes), see Subway Rider Choked Homeless Man to Death, Medical Examiner Rules:
Jordan Neely died after a man held him in a chokehold. On Wednesday, the medical examiner’s office said the cause of death was compression of the neck, and ruled it a homicide.
Skynxnex (talk) 15:21, 4 May 2023 (UTC)- Additional source here. —Matthew / (talk) 15:28, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Hi @RossButsy, the medical examiner did. Mean doesn't mean the person who did it was a murder but it was homicide (so not an accident or "natural" causes), see Subway Rider Choked Homeless Man to Death, Medical Examiner Rules:
- And who has ruled this a homicide? The authorities? No. The governor? No. RossButsy (talk) 15:09, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support per above, especially given that the medical examiner has determined it to have been a homicide. —Matthew / (talk) 15:23, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support per guideline essays and for consistency. PriusGod (talk) 18:11, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support per arguments made above.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 18:14, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support - it was ruled a homicide conman33 (. . .talk) 19:30, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support Multiple reliable secondary sources and the medical examiner ruled Neely's death a homicide. CJ-Moki (talk) 19:32, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support It's what happened. The medical examiner said it, and reliable sources have also said it was a killing. We don't have the authority to say it's a murder, but it was objectively a killing. BappleBusiness[talk] 20:23, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support per arguments made above. DoctorMatt (talk) 20:28, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support for consistency. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:23, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support per medical examiner and Wikipedia guidelines. Tenpop421 (talk) 22:25, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Death is a more neutral word AnonymousEditor95 (talk) 23:54, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Neutral should be synonymous with objective. The medical examiner's office has confirmed that it was a homicide, therefore the word "Killing" is totally neutral in this case. Non-neutral would be to use the word "Murder". Salvabl (talk) 00:31, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support While WP:KILLINGOF is an essay, it is nonetheless a widely-followed and sensible convention. OhNoitsJamie Talk 23:56, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support It's extrajudicial and has already been ruled a homicide. The evidence that it's a killing is also overwhelming with footage of the incident. LoomCreek (talk) 01:28, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support. Homicide = killing. WWGB (talk) 02:31, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support, death has been ruled a homicide. Morgan695 (talk) 02:49, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- Support per above. 〜 Festucalex • talk 06:33, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
Name of killer
None of the sources cited, as of this moment, name Daniel Penny as the killer. The name was added to the article by Bill3602, citing no sources. There are threads on twitter identifying him based on an apparent editorial slip-up, but that's no reliable source. I thus removed the name until a reliable source names him. 〜 Festucalex • talk 06:40, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
Agree. I can find no RS for now. WWGB (talk) 06:45, 5 May 2023 (UTC)