Talk:Conservatism

Where the article stands now

181.1.137.59 posted that the article "has no criticism of conservatism".

I suggested that "As it stands, especially if one only reads the beginning and end of the article, it states essentially that conservatism is right and liberalism is wrong."

I posted a few referenced quotations.

Trakking deleted most of them.

It seems best to take them one at a time.

Here is my first post, under "Themes", now deleted.

"A less positive view of conservatism is expressed by scholars Naomi Oreskes and Erik M. Conway, who wrote in Dædalus in 2022: "Empirical data do not support the conclusion of a crisis of public trust in science. They do support the conclusion of a crisis of conservative trust in science: polls show that American attitudes toward science are highly polarized along political lines.""

Comments? Rick Norwood (talk) 12:01, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

That information only concerns contemporary American politics; it does not cover the topic from a historical and global perspective. It is a subject for the main article on US conservatism. Furthermore, the information is irrelevant if you do not mention the connection that the study draws between a growing distrust in science and the belief in limited government. Trakking (talk) 16:53, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Naomi Oreskes is full professor at Harvard, with more than 900 papers published in refereed journals, but she is an American, so you conclude she only knows about American contemporary politics. And, she is not a conservative, so she doesn't understand that distrust in science is related to a believe in limited government. In short, you agree that conservatives distrust science but you don't trust Americans. Erik M. Conway has a Ph.D. from the University of Minnesota, works for Jet Propulsion Laboratory, and is the author of several books, including one titled High-Speed Dreams (2005), in which he argues that "U.S. government sponsorship of supersonic commercial transportation systems resulted from Cold War concerns about a loss of technological prowess in the modern world." But he is also an American, and therefore cannot be trusted to have learned about anything except what the American government wants him to know. Further, he does not mention that the reason conservatives distrust science is that conservatives distrust government.

The statement that I am trying to balance, just above the post you deleted, is by Quintin Hogg. His claim, which remains in the article is: "Conservatism is not so much a philosophy as an attitude, a constant force, performing a timeless function in the development of a free society, and corresponding to a deep and permanent requirement of human nature itself." His views of free society and a deep and permanent requirement of human nature itself you find reliable, because he is a conservative politician, and President of the Oxford University Conservative Association. He is British, and therefore not under the thrall of the American government.

In short, you say that there is in conservative thought "a growing distrust in science and the belief in limited government." but don't think Americans scientists know as much about science as British politicians with no training in science.

So, in order for this article to state what you agree is true, I need to find someone who says that who is not an American. Ok. I can do that. Rick Norwood (talk) 18:58, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Naomi Oreskes is a reliable scholar, but her expertise is the history of science. This article is about a social and political ideology, and her opinion on the topic does not carry weight. The scholars quoted and referenced throughout the article are political scientists, political philosophers, sociologists, social psychologists, and historians of ideas. Many of these people (Corey Robin, Alexandre Kojève, Mark Lilla, Edmund Fawcett, Bob Altemeyer, Felicia Pratto, Jonathan Haidt etc.) are ideologically left-leaning, which is excellent because it makes the article nuanced and balanced. Trakking (talk) 19:57, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Of course, it is no surprise that you quickly reverted my post, even though you agree with what the post says. You claim that an expert on the history of science is not reliable and does not carry any weight. But that was my previous post, not the post you just now reverted. The post you reverted was credited to an Australian scientist, not an American. But you said of that the Australian scientist "it is only representative of parts of the Anglosphere [the US and Australia] and not the whole planet" But isn't your own source, a conservative British politician, also "only representative of parts of the Anglosphere ... not the whole planet"?

So, I will quote a British scientist, and see if you revert that quote while keeping the quote by a British politician. Rick Norwood (talk) 20:43, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

1. Great Britain is still only the Anglosphere.

2. Quintin Hogg's quote is from The Conservative Case, a treatise written specifically about conservatism, and it is a famous quote that has been cited in different works on conservatism, stimulating much debate.

3. Skepticism towards vaccines and some aspects of climate change is a minor issue on the historical and global topic of conservatism.

4. There are many nations where conservative people have been the most pro-vaccine people. Trakking (talk) 21:15, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Ok, how about what The Guardian says. I've cited a source that contradicts your claim that The Guardian is not trusted, and provided two examples, one new, of how the Tories are not helping. IF you delete it, I will provide more examples.

As for your points:

1. You object that my posts are only the Anglosphere, and are fine that the post my sources disagree with is only the Anglosphere. 2. You point out that your quote is famous. It is also wrong. Being famous (among conservatives) doesn't make wrong right. 3. Skepticism toward vaccines and some aspects of climate change have already killed millions of people and are killing more ever day. Killing millions of people is not "minor". 4. I do not say, and The Guardian does not say, that all conservatives are anti-vaccine. Clearly, many are anti-vaccine, and it is a major cause in conservatism world-wide. Rick Norwood (talk) 21:36, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Please read the article on green conservatism. In many nations all over the world, conservatives are taking environmental stances, forming alliances with green parties etc. The most influential conservative philosopher in recent decades, Roger Scruton, wrote How to Think Seriously About the Planet: The Case for an Environmental Conservatism (2012) promoting green conservatism.

Meanwhile, the communist Soviet Union was the nation that caused most destruction to the environment in the 20th century. And in the 21st century it is communist China that is causing the most destruction to the environment. Trakking (talk) 23:04, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Ok, it is clear that no matter what I post you will revert it. Now, I'll put it back up. You'll revert it again. I'll put it back up. You'll revert it again. That will be your third and last revert. Then we'll let the Wikipedia referees sort it out.

I wish we could have actually exchanged ideas, but since you again assert that The Guardian, the most trusted newspaper in Great Britain, is not a reliable source, there's no point in trying to have a discussion. Rick Norwood (talk) 00:32, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

It's not that the authors are Americans, it's that they are writing about American conservatism which most experts do not consider to be a form of conservatism. Notice that the authors cite (an admittedly wacky version of) Adam Smith, Hayek and Friedman as the intellectual giants of conservatism, although they were all liberals, as were the reforms initiated by Thatcher and Reagan.

Thatcher incidentally purged the party of Quinton Hogg's proteges and rejected his ideology. As Ian Gilmour recounted, she said Labour has an ideology, so should we and threw down a copy of Hayek's Constituion of Liberty, which includes a chapter "Why I am not a conservative." The tradition she wanted to return to was, as Gilmour explained, Manchester liberalism which she had learned from her father, who was a Liberal politician.

Rejecting vaccines comes from a tradition of peasants and pitchforks and burning witches at the stake. It runs counter to respect for authority and is an expression of selfishness and rugged individualism.

While there is consensus that the Guardian is reliable, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources points out that as with any newspaper, that does not necessarily apply to analysis, commentary and opinion, which must be judged on their own merits.

The Guardian article incidentally does not connect climate change policy and conservative ideology. An earlier Guardian article tells us that Tony Blair refused to sign on to Kyoto[1] and don't expect Kier Starmer to be any more receptive to fighting climate change.That doesn't mean that socialist ideology rejects climate change science. TFD (talk) 01:15, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Trakking, China emits half as much greenhouse gas per capita as the U.S. While the Soviet Union had higher levels of pollution per person as the U.S., it had only 80% as much overall. Bear in mind that what you see as a self-evident fact may not necessarily be seen as such by other editors. TFD (talk) 01:55, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

TFD: Excellent points. Rick is making the error of conflating traditional conservatism with modern neoliberalism, since there is no sharp distinction drawn between the two in the United States. We must consider the issue from a global and historical perspective, not a narrow American contemporary one. In fact, conservatism, as an ideology, arose in opposition to modern progressive industrialism, unrestrained capitalism, and individualist liberalism. Many of the early forefathers of conservatism were anti-capitalists, for instance Louis de Bonald and Adam Müller, and environmental concerns have been expressed by classical conservatives ever since Edmund Burke. Trakking (talk) 03:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Response to The Four Deuces: Thank you for actually responding to the points I am trying to raise instead of falling back on insults, false statements (repeated claims that The Guardian is unreliable), and deletion.

I have to go to work soon, but I would like to respond To what seems to be your main point, and to Trakking's repeated claims. You say "It's not that the authors are Americans, it's that they are writing about American conservatism which most experts do not consider to be a form of conservatism." But essentially all of the sources cited in the statements I've disagreed, essentially all of the articles cited sources, are American or British sources. How can you object to me citing American and British (and Australian) sources when you almost exclusively cite American or British sources in the sections of the article I've tried to edit. If you rule out American and British sources for my claims, you should also rule out American and British sources for your claims.

Trakking says: "We must consider the issue from a global and historical perspective, not a narrow American contemporary one." Please name one author who you think considers conservatism from a global and historical perspective. Rick Norwood (talk) 11:44, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Most of the sources we use will be British or American, since most of the literature is. But this is what Ian Adams, who is British, wrote:

"Ideologically, all US parties are liberal and always have been. Essentially they espouse classical liberalism, that is a form of democratised Whig constitutionalism plus the free market. The point of difference comes with the influence of social liberalism. How far should the free market be left alone; how far should tbe state regulate or manage; and how far should government at federal or local level provide social security and welfare services?"[2]

Brendon O'Connor, who is American, explains how the U.S. adopted the terms liberal and conservative in the 1930s to describe two different approaches to liberalism. Both Roosevelt and Hoover had identified as liberals.[3]

Therefore, when someone writes about American conservatism we cannot assume that their comments apply to conservatism elsewhere.

Furthermore, the Conservative and Unionist Party of Great Britain is a result of the merger of the Conservative and Liberal Unionist parties. You cannot necessarily interpret comments about its actions as pertaining to conservative ideology.

There is of course a school of thought that classifies U.S. conservatism as a branch of conservatism rather than liberalism. See for example The Reactionary Mind: Conservatism from Edmund Burke to Sarah Palin. But articles are supposed to be neutral, to explain opinions not endorse them.

TFD (talk) 17:47, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Does conservatism support a free society

TFD: It is really good to have someone rational to talk to.

You quote Ian Adams. "Ideologically, all US parties are liberal and always have been." When did Adams write this, before or after the conservative denial of Covid and global warming? Before or after Donald Trump?

But, let that be for the time being. I agree that this article should distinguish between American conservatism and "real" conservatism, even though American conservatism, Turmp conservatism, is by far the most influential in the world today, and while Trakking calls denial of global warming and Covid "trivial", my guess is that you do not agree, and would say denial of global warming and Covid are not conservative, and that Trump is not conservative.

This is the main point I want to discuss now: You say, "to explain opinions is not to endorse them". I agree. The article, as it stands, says right up front that "Conservatism is not so much a philosophy as an attitude, a constant force, performing a timeless function in the development of a free society, and corresponding to a deep and permanent requirement of human nature itself." I disagree that conservatism supports a "free society" and have tried to post a few sources who say that conservatism does not support a free society but supports a society which the upper class rules. These attempts have been deleted, on the grounds that The Guardian is unreliable and that American sources are unreliable.

I have voted for both liberals and for conservatives. But I agree with you that "to explain opinions is not to endorse them". I think this section needs a second quote, from some neutral source, that does not agree that conservatism supports a "free society", but rather states that conservatism supports a society ruled by the upper class. Rick Norwood (talk) 22:55, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I thought the article should begin by mentioning the main defintions of conservatism. Positional conservatism supports tradition for its own sake whether it is feudalism, capitalism or communism. Aristocratic conservatism supports a specific set of traditions, such as the established church. As those traditions die out it becomes less relevant. Autonomous conservatism assumes that there is a set of values that conservatives follow regardless of the time and place in which they live. So Confucius might have been an autonomous conservative.

Basically the description in the lead describes how some self-described conservatives explain their philosophy. But of course they define the terms and the result is always to the advantage of some groups and the disadvantage of others. Presenting it as a true, unambigous statement is misleading.

So I think the first thing that needs to change is the lead.

I don't know to what extend Trump has departed from the right-wing liberal paradigm. But if he has moved, it's more toward right-wing populism or fascism than conservatism. Then again under the current definition, virtually anyone could claim to be a conservative.

Essentially Trump takes advantage of the suffering inflicted on Americans beginning with reforms in the late 1970s and accelerating under Reagan. But instead of blaming the system, he blames minorities, foreign countries and the supposed enemy within. He follows the Karl Rove playbook of energizing the base rather than fighting for the (increasingly small) centre. TFD (talk) 03:21, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

"But instead of blaming the system, he blames minorities, foreign countries and the supposed enemy within." That is not unique to conservatives, or to Americans. That is the nature of scapegoating, "singling out a person or group for unmerited blame and consequent negative treatment." ... "The scapegoat theory of intergroup conflict provides an explanation for the correlation between times of relative economic despair and increases in prejudice and violence toward outgroups." Dimadick (talk) 21:51, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

That's why I wrote, "I don't know to what extend Trump has departed from the right-wing liberal paradigm. But if he has moved, it's more toward right-wing populism or fascism than conservatism." TFD (talk) 01:54, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

"conservatism supports a society ruled by the upper class." I thought that was Tory ideology, royalists who were willing to support autocracy. Dimadick (talk) 21:45, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

That is how conservatism is normally defined in the literature. But like liberalism and socialism, it has evolved since the 19th century. In fact toryism has not been royalist since the 1600s. It has evolved by accepting the Bill of Rights 1689, the Great Reform Act of 1832, Catholic emancipation and universal suffrage, among other changes. Most conservative parties were unable to adapt which is why they died out. TFD (talk) 02:07, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree, but given that almost every change I've tried to make has been deleted, I want to move cautiously. Today I plan to add one carefully referenced paragraph including a quote, and we'll see what happens.Rick Norwood (talk) 11:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

First, I need to make it clear that my "I agree" above should have been "I agree with TFD". The intermediate comment, by Dimadick, refers to a common rationalization: attribute all negative comments to human nature, and all positive comments to reason. I'm afraid that doesn't work in this case, since most conservatives are or say they are followers of Burke.Rick Norwood (talk) 22:32, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

See the top of the page: "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Conservatism article." This is not an appropriate forum for attacking Wikipedia editors and voicing your opinions. Do you have any constructive comments about what specific changes you would like to see? Otherwise, I will again remove your comments. TFD (talk) 00:11, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

This article needs a fundamental rewrite in many places

This page needs to be almost entirely rewritten because it's clear the authors had biases in favor of the ideology, in the writing, in the structure, and in the cherrypicked information that leads to outlandish claims, such as Dostoevsky being listed under the "Prominent intellectuals" section, when his later "conservative" thought was not reflective of any true ideological conservativism, and he is far more famous for his socialist critiques of conservative ideals. There are no distinctions made between the modern usages and classical usages of the term which leads to easily conflating wildly different thought as to place more academically well recieved thinkers that have contributed to relevant fields in with white nationalists and nazis. The refusal to list a certain diatinctly mustached Austrian painter in the "Prominent statesmen" tab while retaining figures that are more neutrally or positively viewed by general western society and modern scholars such as Shinzo Abe and Klemens von Metternich should be noted as well.

"A number of studies have found that disgust is tightly linked to political orientation. People who are highly sensitive to disgusting images are more likely to align with the political right and value traditional ideals of bodily and spiritual purity, tending to oppose, for example, abortion and gay marriage." This is a quote lifted directly from the article itself and it clearly and unabashedly does not just insinuate but outright claims that being gay is "bodily and spiritual" unpure. This is borderline hate speech. This is outright saying that being gay is "disguisting." This does not belong anywhere on this website.

It is clear the article's primary contributors have done this in order to paint what appears to be an "unbiased" view but is ultimately propaganda in service of making a modern movement appear more appealing to unsuspecting readers by rigorously weeding out any negative information. This is highly evidenced by the fact that there is no criticisms on this page, to one of the most heavily criticized political ideologies in human history.

In conclusion, Wikipedia is no place for propaganda machines and we need to collectively destroy this article and rebuild it from the ashes as to give an accurate portrayal of every end of conservatism in order to represent it on both equal footing with itself and with all other political ideologies' pages on this website. If it's truly so pure and good as this article currently makes it out to be, then there should be no threat in accurately representing it. 2600:8807:901:6400:D012:B48F:7496:B15C (talk) 05:19, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

So Wikipedia:Be bold. And don't make accusations against other editors. TFD (talk) 05:37, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

My efforts to explain the actions I am going to take, the actions I am encouraging others to take, and the reasons for those actions are being mistaken as a mere attempt at heckling. Also an explaination of the failures of other editors is fundamentally necessary to explain why the article needs to be rewritten in the first place in order to encourage other editors to follow. 2600:8807:901:6400:D012:B48F:7496:B15C (talk) 00:38, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Your accusatorial and violent language violates Wikipedia’s guidelines of WP:AGF and WP:NPA. We do not tolerate WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour from people who do not respect the principle of WP:CONSENSUS.

And please get your facts straight. Dostoevsky was pro-Tsar, pro-Empire, pro-Orthodoxy, and anti-modernist, anti-anarchist, anti-nihilist. He wrote passionate essays for a conservative journal. By today’s standards, he was an ultraconservative traditionalist. Many authoritative sources identify him as a prominent conservative intellectual.

And stop conflating conservatism and "white nationalism”. The most conservative nations on earth, such as India, are not even white. There are East Asian nations—Japan, Singapore, South Korea—that have never had a left-wing government. Conservatives dominate politics in many Muslim nations—Marocco, Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc. Africa is culturally conservative. Conservatism is significantly larger than "white nationalists," who constitute a fringe group even within the Western world.

Unlike communism and fascism, conservatism is not "one of the most heavily criticized political ideologies in human history". It is the mainstream ideology in large parts of the world, including today's Europe where conservative parties received almost twice as many votes as did leftist parties in the 2024 EU election. And according to WP:CRIT, "For topics about a particular point of view – such as philosophies (Idealism, Naturalism, Existentialism), political outlooks (Capitalism, Marxism), or religion (Islam, Christianity, Atheism) – it will usually be appropriate to have a 'Criticism' section or 'Criticism of ...' subarticle. Integrating criticism into the main article can cause confusion because readers may misconstrue the critical material as representative of the philosophy's outlook, the political stance, or the religion's tenets."

I would advise you to be acquainted with WP:P&G before making any further comments or edits. Trakking (talk) 09:13, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Categorization of conservative parties

User:Trakking elimated the division between historic and modern conservative parties: "removal of the arbitrary separation of national variants of conservatism into ”historical” and ”modern”, for which there were no sources referenced; organization of these national variants into their respective continents in an alphabetized structure."[4]

The distinction was between parties identified in Andrew Heywood's book Political Ideologies: An Introduction (Palagrave Macmillian 2003) and other political science books as ideologically conservative and parties that have been described as conservative in some sources but are more often described as liberal, Christian Democratic, far right, socialist or communist.

The historic parties emerged in the 19th century as a reaction to liberalism. The emergence of socialism in the late 19th century forced liberals and conservatives into alliance and conservatism declined as an ideology as the world they sought to conserve largely but not entirely disappeared.

It is worth mentioning the few conservative parties that outlived WWII.

Also, I don't see the point of listing the most right-wing parties in every country in the world. Wouldn't that be better in Right-wing politics or a separate list article? After all, the article defines conservatism as an ideology whose most prominent ideologue was Edmund Burke, not Friedrich Hayek. TFD (talk) 16:36, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

References to "nuclear family"?

The "nuclear family" model seems to be western-centric, as I am Polish I can certainly state that a model of living with even more of your family (usually grandparents from the mother's or father's side) is more popular in the East, especially from a conservative viewpoint. However, the extended family article doesn't really seem to detail that kind of model either? I don't think "nuclear family" should be referenced here regardless, since it's contradictory to the beliefs of many conservatives outside of the West, I (anecdotally) know a lot of conservatives in Poland who think that the increasing adaptation of the nuclear family model is a cultural degeneration. Polish kurd (talk) 18:07, 9 November 2024 (UTC)