Talk:Death and state funeral of Winston Churchill

Still persisting with it

As his coffin passed up the Thames river, more than 36 dockers lowered their crane jibs in a salute in unison.[5] This was an unrehearsed procedure.

No it wasn't. It was revealed on the 50th anniversary that the dockers were paid to do it because it was their day off. Here and here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.141.32.220 (talk) 21:43, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Not seeing the conflict. The article says the action was unrehearsed. The sources - which draw on the same single contributor - don’t contradict this. KJP1 (talk) 08:15, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

It may have been an unrehearsed procedure but it certainly wasn't spontaneous. I've looked through the copy of Operation Hope Not in the National Archives and the cranes lowering their jibs was planned in 1962. JeanPassepartout (talk) 01:05, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Then use the source. KJP1 (talk) 07:20, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

It was put about for many years that this had been a spontaneous gesture of respect by the dockers. WSC's family said they had known nothing about it in advance. When the story that the dockers had been paid came out a few years ago, a lot of people, including Wikipedia editors, refused to believe it. It would be good to have a properly cited mention that it had been planned all along.Paulturtle (talk) 00:00, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Seemingly no one, not the Met, not the family, knew it was going to happen. This may be because the docks were run by an arcane union mafia and you could never tell. But Sir David Burnett, managing director of Hay's Wharf, interviewed the day after the funeral, said the 36 crane drivers were happy to do it and did not ask for overtime and were only paid 'expenses', whatever that means. The man interviewed by the BBC in 2015 was not a crane driver, was not in any way involved -- which makes you wonder why the BBC chose to interview him -- and was lying about dockers 'living in poverty'. (Anyone with the slightest knowledge of the London docks in the 20th century knows that's a lie. London dockers were about as 'poor' as the print workers in Fleet Street -- in other words they were very well off.) https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20150210/282875139212011 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8hgvDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT53&lpg=PT53&dq=sir+david+burnett+churchill&source=bl&ots=Rge2XURCy_&sig=ACfU3U35lrrZWouBPkMy_8hQzlqeiVGNeQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjj95eT2MfyAhWfhv0HHc1pAuwQ6AF6BAgiEAM#v=onepage&q=sir%20david%20burnett%20churchill&f=false Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:00, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Restoration of 1964 Austin Princess hearse

The restoration of the 1964 Austin Princess hearse is discussed by the BBC in an article dated 16 Aug 2022: Winston Churchill hearse restored for use in Bristol. JDAWiseman (talk) 22:19, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

misleading

The para beginning section Order of Service seriously misleads as it gives the impression Attlee is one of those carrying the coffin. He was not, as the video in the BBC source clearly shows. My impression is that Rawnsley in the Guardian source is either sensationally misleading or has not seen the footage. Spicemix (talk) 12:51, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

@Spicemix, Attlee was one of the pallbearers, but they do not necessarily actually carry the coffin. See this British Pathé footage. The pallbearers are mentioned just after 4:30 and 5:10, with him being identified as one in the latter mention. -- DeFacto (talk). 13:53, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

@DeFacto, thanks. In fact I was unaware of the concept of honorary pallbearer and I think nearly all readers will be too. Having read and reread the passage I am confident that a natural understanding is that Attlee slipped while holding the coffin and that soldiers behind him saved the day. I'll have a look at rewording it in due course. Spicemix (talk) 14:51, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

It might have been my mistake, but the text did not explicitly indicates that he carried the coffin. I have added that he was actually walking in front of the soldier-pallbearers. Chhandama (talk) 08:12, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

I've just watched the Paxman revisit of the funeral a couple of days ago and can confirm that Attlee didn't carry the coffin. The pallbearers, in teams of eight were provided firstly by the Grenadier Guards as they are the senior Guards regiment. It was then transferred from the barge to the hearse, as per my addition to the article, by a team of eight non-commissioned soldiers from the QRIH - in No 2 uniforms. When the hearse arrived at Waterloo the coffin was transferred to the train by eight commissioned officers from the QRIH and at Blaydon they also carried it into the churchyard. The reason for this odd inclusion of a cavalry unit is that WSC had been commissioned into the 4th Queen's Own Hussars from Sandhurst and was Colonel of the Regiment in his later years. In 1957 the 4th amalgamated with the 8th King's Royal Irish Hussars as part of the Sandys Reviews. The regiment then became known as the Queen's Royal Irish Hussars. WSC remained as Colonel in Chief replacing Prince Phillip (Colonel of the 8th Hussars) who then replaced him when he became too infirm to carry on. I've seen images of the QRIH honour guard at Westminster Hall and they are beautiful but can't find them anywhere online. I actually knew one of the honour guard too. He was then Cornet Sandy Cramsie but rose to Lt Col. Sadly deceased now. Leitrim Lad (talk) 15:11, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Death and state funeral of Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 00:50, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Dignitaries

If I can, I'll attempt and cite sources for all the dignitaries at the state funeral of Churchill. This will give more accuracy. For the United States, there's a section on the U.S. delegation - SnoopyAndCharlieBrown202070 ((talk)) 23:26 7 October 2022 (UTC)

You might want to get the details about the delegations from France and the Soviet Union, as they both were permitted to have more than three representatives. This is why I added a section for those countries. - SnoopyAndCharlieBrown202070 ((talk)) 16:21 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Canadian flag

At this time, I've asked that nobody add details that Canadian Prime Minister Lester Pearson also met with the Queen to get her approval to unfurl the Maple Leaf flag. This was done two days before the funeral. -- SnoopyAndCharlieBrown202070 ((talk)) 21:30 4 November 2022 (UTC)

There is no reason to even bring the subject up, as the meeting is beyond the scope of this article and up and is irrelevant to the funeral. Drdpw (talk) 19:55, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Prominent absences section

The most notable absentee was from the United States. I want to know which absence do you think drew the most attention, Lyndon B. Johnson or Hubert Humphrey. Most news organisations said Humphrey, because that resulted in the criticism against the United States. SnoopyAndCharlieBrown202070 ((talk)) 02:49 7 December 2022 (UTC)

General discussions such as this are off topic; which absence drew the most attention is irrelevant here. Drdpw (talk) 19:55, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Hubert Humphrey

The only reason why I said that Hubert Humphrey was a new vice president of the United States was because he had just been inaugurated as vice president; there hadn't been a VPOTUS since 22 November 1963. Humphrey hadn't been VPOTUS for even a week when Churchill died. SnoopyAndCharlieBrown202070 ((talk)) 19:30 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Dignitaries section

You might want to arrange the dignitaries list in alphabetical order by the English-language speaking countries. I'll attempt to do that. SnoopyAndCharlieBrown202070 (talk) 23:13 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Procession to Tower Pier

The article is obviously wrong to claim that the Guards bearer party had to carry the coffin all the way from St Paul's to Tower Pier. Of course they didn't. The coffin was placed back on the gun carriage, as seen in the Pathe News film reproduced here. https://transdiffusion.org/2022/09/18/the-state-funeral-of-sir-winston-churchill/ Khamba Tendal (talk) 19:27, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

The article doesn't actually say explicitly that the party carried the coffin from St Paul's to Tower Pier. However, if you think the current wording is ambiguous then why not revise it? Masato.harada (talk) 09:02, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

The article did say that, and it's not ambiguous at all. It said: 'After the church service, Churchill's coffin was carried by a bearer party from the Grenadier Guards to the Tower of London; the journey lasting 18 minutes, making it the longest distance that a coffin had been carried by bearers in any state funeral.' Someone completely made this up. I've now changed it to remove the false unsourced claim. Khamba Tendal (talk) 17:59, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Coverage in Ireland.

The article says that the funeral was not broadcast live on TV in Ireland. That was not exactly political since the fact is that in 1965, there was only one single television broadcaster in the Irish Republic, RTÉ, and they only broadcast daily in the evening, from 17:30 PM to 23:30 PM. They were always scrambling for funds, since some in the Irish government viewed TV as a "luxury" for a country as poor as Ireland then was.

RTÉ would have had to commit people to a special daytime broadcast just for the single event of Churchill's funeral. People weren't used to watching TV in the daytime in most of the country and probably wouldn't have known to turn on the TV for the extra special event. I'm sure the funeral would have been reported on the evening news on that day.

People in the eastern counties of Ireland had been watching British TV for decades before the RTÉ was set up and could watch it if they wished. Pascalulu88 (talk) 13:51, 29 June 2024 (UTC)