Talk:Woodrow Wilson

RFC on Lede Image for Woodrow Wilson (2024)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Which photograph should serve as the lede image for Woodrow Wilson? Emiya1980 (talk) 02:35, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• 
  A (Current Image)
• 
  B

Emiya1980 (talk) 02:35, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• B is slightly crisper in my view although I'm not strongly committed. Five years certainly made a difference to his face. Both have very narrow margins between the top of Wilson's head and the top of the frame which make them feel a bit compressed. I T B F 💬 04:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• The original uncropped version of A has more space at the top which might resolve that issue; the source link for B is dead so can't tell if there was similar cropping there. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• A as a default - B is currently missing the necessary copyright tagging for US status. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• Nikkimaria Copyright tag has been added. Emiya1980 (talk) 04:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• Is there an LOC link to confirm that tag? The current source link is dead and on a quick look I don't see it in LOC (but there are lots of results so I may have missed it). Nikkimaria (talk) 23:43, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: There is a version of A with a different color palette in the Library of Congress's Harris & Ewing collection. You can view it at the following link . Emiya1980 (talk) 03:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

There is another version of the image here. Emiya1980 (talk) 03:23, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

• B is a better image in my opinion. Assuming the copyright issues are resolved, that's my vote. –EruFISH 08:56, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• B It simply looks better and reveals more.Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 16:16, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• B: A's shadowing is strange and too dark. C F A 💬 16:42, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
• B See my comments in prior thread for some (but not all) reasons why I think so. Emiya1980 (talk) 19:34, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  I would be very careful about saying "... right around the time he had a stroke ..." A stroke is a sudden thing. If the photo were taken before the stroke, it would be, relatively speaking, OK. After the stroke, if he were still recovering from the stroke, he would look so doubtful, they wouldn't even bother with a portrait photo. I suspect A was before the stroke.

  Having said that, I still think B is slightly preferable; but A is acceptable. Bruce leverett (talk) 15:00, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• A This current image has been on this WP:GA in one form or another for over 10 years. I don't see a compelling reason to change it now. It's a clear image of Wilson. I really don't understand why there's suddenly so many RFCs about images of historical figures. Certainly there's better ways to improve the project. Nemov (talk) 19:49, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
• B per @Elmmapleoakpine. UnspokenPassion (talk) 19:02, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
• Ignoring any copyright issues, B is slightly better because A's background lighting is distracting. Senorangel (talk) 03:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
• B. Better focus, better lighting. Station1 (talk) 07:23, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
• B, per most of the above. Although option A has a "dark and stormy night" look, a good metaphor for Wilson's broken promise to keep the U.S. out of war, B depicts the dignified subject professionally. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:11, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
• The differences are marginal at best. To add upon Nemov's point, there are certainly more productive ways to use the collective power of an RFC. To quote WP:RFCBEFORE, "RfCs are time consuming, and editor time is valuable. Editors should try to resolve their issues before starting an RfC." Are the photo "improvements" so dramatic that one BOLD editor couldn't have just made the photo update in the matter of a 5-minute edit? Pistongrinder (talk) 21:00, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Pistongrinder I did and I was reverted both times. The second time I was told to obtain consensus beforehand. Now here we are. Emiya1980 (talk) 04:36, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Every few months, someone tries to change the lede image of an article like this. Editor time is spent arguing over it and/or reverting it. I have spent quite a lot of editor time combing through article history looking for attempts to change the lede image, so that I would know whether or not I had been anticipated, and so that I would know how we got to where we are. When people complain about editor time being wasted, it's likely that they themselves have never gone to the trouble of consulting article history. Bruce leverett (talk) 14:50, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

No, it's likely you haven't looked at the number of RFCs opened by the same editors on multiple stable biographies over the last 3 months. 90% of these RFCs have ended up being unchanged, thus taxing the community on a discussion that should have never occurred. Nemov (talk) 20:09, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

That doesn't seem to be the case here based on the numerous posts made by editors in favor of an alternative lede image. Emiya1980 (talk) 02:21, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Nah, that's still the case. 90% isn't 100% and this RFC wasn't necessary. This could have been resolved through simple discussion without opening up a RFC. RFC are supposed to be the last resort. Obviously some editors have ignored that. Nemov (talk) 13:40, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

That seems pretty unfair. I don't know about elsewhere, but in this particular case it looks like Emiya1980 made a bold edit not once but twice, and was reverted both times. Wisely not edit-warring, they then brought the discussion to the talk page in the section above this one, just as you suggest, pinging several editors, but received no reply from anyone. This RfC was the last resort. I, and possibly others, would not have known about this issue if not for the RFC, and considering the fairly clear consensus that has emerged, I consider my five minutes well spent in helping to improve a highly read article. Station1 (talk) 20:44, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

If you think this is productive by all means visit these other RFCs. Nemov (talk) 22:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

• B since it has better lighting that makes his face more visible than A. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 17:45, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
• B. To the extent there is a consensus it seems to favor B. As Station1 points out, Emiya1980 has followed procedure and done what was asked in starting a discussion to seek consensus and pinging relevant editors. Robert Pius should either be satisfied or speak up. (Personally, I prefer the aesthetics of the grittier A, but I admit B is more familiar to me.) Carleas (talk) 11:11, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

  I wasn’t notified about this second conversation. I am personally more familiar with A and I believe its more recognizable. But, if there’s a consensus for B then so be. Kind regards, Robertus Pius (Talk • Contribs) 16:18, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

B. In my opinion, the second picture is the better option as it is better quality and it is more dignified. - Luna Cielus Luna Cielus (talk) 22:33, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Anybody want to close this? Emiya1980 (talk) 03:05, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article issues and classification

There are some tag issues that can affect article classification. "Wikipedia articles needing page number citations from February 2019" and August 2022 (categories), are not that serious. Categories such as "Articles with unsourced statements from August 2022" and "Articles with dead external links from October 2023", can affect the article classification of even a B-class article. The B-class criteria #1 states: The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited. -- Otr500 (talk)

External links

This is a level-4 vital article and is rated GA-class. Sometimes the incremental edits, that define Wikipedia, can also lead to degradement. There are currently nineteen links in four subsections.

• External links:

This page in a nutshell: External links in an article can be helpful to the reader, but they should be kept minimal, meritable, and directly relevant to the article. With rare exceptions, external links should not be used in the body of an article.

Second paragraph of the lead: Some acceptable external links include those that contain further research that is accurate and on-topic, information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail, or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy.-- Otr500 (talk)

Rationale for trimming

The "External links" section is one of the optional appendices. Three seems to be an acceptable number and of course, everyone has their favorite to try to add for a forth.

The problem is that none is needed for article promotion.

• ELpoints #3) states: Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
• LINKFARM states: There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
• ELMIN: Minimize the number of links. --
• ELCITE: Do not use {{cite web}} or other citation templates in the External links section. Citation templates are permitted in the Further reading section.

I am moving all but two so a possible discussion can be had, if warranted, to determine content by consensus

• • Please note: This is more of a maintenance and not normally subjected to BRD per:
• WP:ELBURDEN: Disputed links should be excluded by default unless and until there is a consensus to include them. -- Otr500 (talk)

Moved links

Official

Per ELOFFICIAL and Wikipedia:External links#Minimize the number of links

• White House biography
• Nobel prize – Woodrow Wilson did not deliver a Nobel Lecture.

Speeches and other works

• Woodrow Wilson Edison Campaign Recordings – 1912 audio recording
• Full text of a number of Wilson's speeches, Miller Center of Public Affairs
• Works by Woodrow Wilson at Project Gutenberg
• Works by or about Woodrow Wilson at the Internet Archive
• Works by Woodrow Wilson at LibriVox (public domain audiobooks)
• Woodrow Wilson Personal Manuscripts
• The Ida Tarbell interview with Woodrow Wilson (Collier's Magazine, 1916)

Media coverage

• Woodrow Wilson collected news and commentary at The New York Times
• "Life Portrait of Woodrow Wilson", from C-SPAN's American Presidents: Life Portraits, September 13, 1999
• Woodrow Wilson at IMDb

Study sites

• "Woodrow Wilson and Foreign Policy" – Secondary school lesson plans from EDSITEment! program of National Endowment for the Humanities
• Woodrow Wilson: A Resource Guide from the Library of Congress
• Extensive essays on Woodrow Wilson and shorter essays on each member of his cabinet and First Lady from the Miller Center of Public Affairs
• Woodrow Wilson Links (compiled by David Pietrusza). Archived November 3, 2019, at the Wayback Machine.
• Woodrow Wilson: Prophet of Peace, a National Park Service Teaching with Historic Places lesson plan -- Otr500 (talk) 22:59, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

  Some can be carefully and thoughtfully trimmed but nearly all is overkill. I restored the major online repositories of Gutenberg, Archive.org and Librivox which are standard. There's some other good stuff in there like the NYT repository, the CSPAN life portrait, White House bio, LOC resources, the essay at Miller Center. -- GreenC 14:53, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I usually stop at a max of four but a compromise is a win-win. The links are beneficial and the rest was absolutely overkill. On another note, it is ironic that the US wouldn't join the League of Nations because Wilson refused to negotiate.

In the last paragraph of the "Governor of New Jersey (1911–1913)" section is the sentence "Before leaving office Wilson oversaw the establishment of free dental clinics and enacted a "comprehensive and scientific" poor law (my use of bold). I tagged this because I couldn't find a source. I have no idea what the bold wording means. Any rate, thanks for your assistance. -- Otr500 (talk) 17:23, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 October 2024

Woodrow Wilson#Final years and death (1921–1924) contains the following sentence: "First Lady Helen Herron Taft (also representing her husband former president and Chief Justice William Howard Taft who was too ill to attend the service) ."

I suggest editing it to read "First Lady Helen Herron Taft represented her husband, former President and Chief Justice William Howard Taft, who was too ill to attend the service."

Thank you! 209.247.83.70 (talk) 18:47, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done This is much better. Thank you for your help improving this article! Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:44, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

New (and critical) biography

[1] Doug Weller talk 15:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC)