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Note that the second account was created 5 days since the last edit of the first, which has since become dormant.
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This IP has been making disruptive edits for a while, including attempting to make a cut-and-paste move: [1], adding lyrics from songs: [2][3], [4], [5] (all of them need RD1), and adding redirect tags to existing pages: [6]. They also blank their user talk page regularly after being warned. —*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 22:52, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
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I need some help here: [8]. I'm not actually concerned by their toothless threat and name calling, but they are adding a lot of unsourced material to Chechnya topics, a block of this account will likely just see the creation of another. -- GreenC20:20, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
If they start socking the pages can be protected, but I'm not seeing any indication just yet that this is happening. signed, Rosguilltalk20:26, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
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While only 8 months old, with 1,383 edits, this editor has a very problematic editing history (User talk:Death Editor 2).
They are currently engaged in a slow moving edit war to change the infobox results in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict (an area covered by three CTopics infobox, a-a, and e-e)
Community should evaluate this and the editors overall history User talk:Death Editor 2 of disruptive editing for sanctions. I do not believe this users history show willingness to work within consensus and think it shows an inability to work with others.
I believe this (see history) goes beyond edit warring to overall problems editing in CTopics areas, which is why I think the discussion belongs here and not in the edit warring boards. // Timothy :: talk21:40, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Again, how the isn't the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict over? The Republic of Artsakh no longer exists in any meaningful way, and nearly all of the Armenians fled! Death Editor 2 (talk) 21:47, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
That determination needs to be made by WP:RS. If you cited a reliable source, your edits might not have been reverted. (t · c) buidhe01:29, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago4 comments3 people in discussion
There is a person who since 2022 has been using various 93* Italian IP ranges to troll and make senseless edits to Wikipedia. Their edits are usually in South Asian/Indian/Pakistani pages (though occasionally they'll troll on some unrelated pages) and typically center around inflating their religion's numbers in various Indian states or districts or even in European or North American states or cities, changing demographic figures in general or writing things that glorify their religion. They have made at least 1000+ edits and have been blocked countless times (typically short 24-48 hour blocks on individual IPs).
Sounds like the same LTA Italian mobile IP who has been making changes to tower and building articles, related to their heights. Example: Special:Contributions/93.147.210.61 .. it's been going on since 2022 involving 100s or 1000s of articles (that now litter my watchlist). They have also created sock accounts which get blocked. -- GreenC20:34, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Londonbeat dance band versus Italian IPs – rangeblock exercise
Latest comment: 11 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion
The Londonbeat article has a persistent Italian person attached to it, trying to change the group's nationality from British to British-American. The person uses a variety of IPs from the Rome area. To stop the disruption, the article could be semi-protected for a long time or permanently, or the IPs could be partially rangeblocked.
The 151.xx IPs are widely dispersed; larger than a /16 range. Here are the involved IPs from the last two months:
Regarding the actual content dispute: three of the four founding members had been performing together in the UK for a decade before finding a native Englander as their fourth member and establishing themselves in London. The Los Angeles Times said they were a "new British soul wave" group. Spin magazine said they were "one of the latest British acts to invade the U.S. via MTV." It doesn't really matter that two of the four were ex-patriate Americans, or another member was from Trinidad. They were all living in the UK for years, and they formed the group in the UK, which establishes the nationality of the group. Binksternet (talk) 19:05, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
See section above this, two other Italian IP clusters have persistently been adding false information, since 2022. Different topic areas though. -- GreenC20:40, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
My bad. But that isn't an excuse to outright remove the source. Besides, it's only the business spotlight section mentioned at WP:RSP, but since Outlook isn't listed in the table (unlike Times of India), it is not a non-RS. Kailash29792(talk)02:13, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
A table entry is not necessarily needed for a source to be non-reliable... but I'm explaining and asking for the obvious. Diffs, for example. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 02:16, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Here's one: [19] – Business spotlight. Here's your response: [20]
Latest comment: 11 months ago25 comments5 people in discussion
Closing this considering nothing more of any fruitful nature is going to come out of the ongoing back-and-forth. The issue of the article being moved repeatedly back to draft is now resolved, and Caseeart is aware and has acknowledged the options available to them moving forward. This can move to the article talk page, to BLP/N, or to AfD, but it's stopping here. Daniel (talk) 08:21, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
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@Caseeart has engaged in move warring in regards to Avi Yemini an article which is currently in draft leaving misleading edit summaries in his moves and has refused to engage in discussion.
For reference the article has been deleted twice by AfD in the past and on both occasions the reason for deletions was the subject was not notable:
However during the pandemic the individual became notable in Australia and there are numerous citations in the article which can be seen in the article in its current form at Draft:Avi Yemini Draft.
first moves to draft with edit summary "Deleted multiple times (problems not corrected). WP:ATTACK not suitable for BLP." This edit summary is misleading and patently false. Anyone with eyes can attest the article in its current form has 16 citations, many of which include The Age, The Guardiannews.com.au and the Herald Sun which make up 9 of those citations. Clearly that article would survive a new AfD and the statement "problems not corrected" in reference to the article being deleted multiple times is incorrect. Additionally in their edit summary Caseeart wrote "WP:ATTACK not suitable for BLP". Per WP:ATTACK "An attack page is a page, in any namespace, that exists primarily to disparage or threaten its subject; or biographical material that is entirely negative in tone and unsourced or poorly sourced" (my emphasise). Clearly the article is not poorly sourced as demonstrated by its current state. If Caseeart did believe it to be an WP:ATTACK they ought to have followed that policy and tagged it with the {{db-attack}} template. Clearly they didn't
Caseeart has now moved to draft again without discussion with misleading edit summary "WP:BLP WP:ATTACK. Deleted multiple times. No explanation why restored." Given the message I left for Caseeart and their removal of it it is clearly incorrect that there has been "No explanation why restored". Per above as the article has adequate referencing to WP:RS it is not an WP:ATTACK page and if it was then Caseeart should be using the {{db-attack}} template per policy.
Avi Yemini is now protected until 21 January 2024 and a article which clearly passes WP:GNG is stuck in draft as a result of Caseeart disruptive move warring and not engaging in discussion. Can I get admin intervention and santions on Caseeart for their disruptive behaviour please. TarnishedPathtalk11:32, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
OK, I'll bite - for which of these things is he notable?
Works for Rebel News
Opened a couple of gyms and then sold them
Got sued for defamation by his brother
Ran in a state election and got < 0.5% of the vote
Assaulted his wife
Took legal action against state officials. Lost.
Tried to sue Facebook fact-checkers. Lost.
That's a lot of trivial things that have been mentioned in reliable sources, but it does sort of read like a laundry list of negative issues (and it doesn't even mention the anti-Muslim or anti-Semitic claims). Black Kite (talk)12:27, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
@Black Kite, provocateur/activist would be my description. He's a serial pest and after years of keeping at it a lot of mainstream media took notice during the pandmemic. No one has to like that he's notable but there's heaps of WP:RS that cover him in depth, not just the ones in the article. As I wrote in my message to Caseeart, if they thought the article still had notability problems then an AfD was the appropriate course of action. TarnishedPathtalk12:45, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
The anti-Muslim stuff I believe was a lot of his activism pre-pandemic and there is a argument for developing the article to make it more rounded per WP:RS which aren't currently represented. As it stands though the article passes WP:GNG and it doesn't meet WP:ATTACK as described above. TarnishedPathtalk12:49, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
Replying to your specific question though he is notable for engaging in vexatious civil action. That would be an area of improvement for the article. Listing/Detailing his civil actions that he has launched against others in a section. Though as above I’d say his primary notability is as an activist/procoteur. TarnishedPathtalk13:33, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
Note: I today move-protected the mainspace title for a month to limit scope for any more move ping-pong, preserve the status quo for a while and leave room for some discussion. I made no attempt to establish which was the 'right' title for the page. My initial suggestion would be to submit the draft for review and abide by the result, but if consensus develops here that it should be in mainspace then do please go ahead and make that happen without further reference to me (I'm busy with family and feasting for the next few days at least). Thanks, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:18, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
This absolutely cannot be moved back to draft at this point, if anyone wishes for it to be deleted they must go to AfD. Another unilateral draft-ification would be disruptive end-roading around our deletion processes given the history here. Daniel (talk) 18:46, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Excuse delay, I’m not every day on Wikipedia.
Just as @Black Kite mentioned -as of now The article is still a laundry list against the subject.
@TarnishedPath does not hide their Negative views and openly Attacks the subject calling them “a serial pest” ’@Justlettersandnumbers Is this allowed on Wikipedia about BLP?
And my WP:BLP concerns definitely allows/allowed me to move it back to draft, especially after it was restored without proper explanation.(Aside from a demand message on my talk page that did not addresses the WP:ATTACK concerns).
”Please do not move Avi Yemini to draft again. The subject is clearly notable given the number of citations to WP:RS given in the article. The same concerns don't hold since the last AfD. If you think they do hold then take it to a new AfD. Kind Regards,”
If you think that classifies as a demand or fails to address what you wrote in your edit summary when moved the article the first time, the I have concerns about you. You should have at the very least engaged with me before unilaterally deciding to move it to draft a second time.
@Caseeart: regarding "what to do now (I really don’t have time now to spend on the article)" - if you don't think this article should exist in mainspace, your only recourse is WP:AFD. Unilaterally and repeatedly moving something to draft against the wishes of other good-faith editors is attempting to end-run around consensus decision-making processes such as AfD. The only venue now to consider this article's future is AfD if you think the article shouldn't exist, or alternatively the talk page if you have issue with specific sentences and/or references. Daniel (talk) 10:24, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
@TarnishedPath It is very difficult to engage with you when you openly call the subject a “serial pest” (without a source), and don’t respond to my edit summary about BLP concerns and about prior deletion concerned. A Quick Look at the article summary apears that you keep on removing sourced anlanced information (added by other editors), thus creating a laundry list with much of the negative information some of which are not sourced enough. I see also that you deleted other users speedy deletion request.
@Caseeart very hard to engage with me when I call the subject a “serial pest”? Are you proposing that I wrote that at the same time as I left the message on your talk just after your first move to draft? As per you WP:ASPERSION casting that I removed sourced balanced information I suggest you retract that. TarnishedPathtalk11:10, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
for what? Because *twice* I placed an article that was already deleted multiple times into draft with specific very valid WP:BLP claims in the summary which you did not property address.
Fir the past few months you have been kind of edit warring on this article and removed very well sourced balanced information from skynews.com and from the Australian.com with a false claim “Remove unreliable sources and opinion peices. What is left is not backed up by the citaitons used and is pure original research.”.
Then in the lead of the article you support an edit made by an IP that name the subject is a “far right” activist. Even though majority of sources including skynews.com call him
YouTuber
Activist
Avi Yemeni
Right wing
Right wing activist
Jewish activist.
media presonel
Now you openly call the subject a Serial Pest without any source.
Because another editor objects. Please see Wikipedia:Drafts#Objections - "If an editor raises an objection, move the page back to mainspace and, if necessary, list it at AfD. A page may only be moved unilaterally to the draftspace a single time. If anyone objects, it is no longer an uncontroversial move, and the page needs to be handled through other processes, such as deletion, stubbing, tagging, etc." (emphasis mine) Now speaking as an administrator, you have three options:
nominate it at AfD;
open a discussion on the talk page (and if necessary, WP:BLPN) to address any BLP concerns; or
move on from the issue.
You cannot draftify it again, as per the previous link I shared. I don't think I can be any more direct about this. Pick one of the previous three options and do it, but stop continuining this fruitless discussion about trying to draftify the article here. Daniel (talk) 03:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for clarifying the draft policy. I’ll guess that even applies to BLP concerns.
It looks like it will be an uphill battle to actually fix the BLP problems, due to the issues I already mentioned, like editors removing sourced neutral information, and calling the subject a “serial pest”. (Is that even allowed?) CaseeArtTalk05:06, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
@Caseeart explain how my edit summaries falsely conveyed that my edits were backed by Wiki policy and that I was edit warring in dot point form for each edit. Can you read? Have you read WP:RS? Have you read WP:RSP? Do you understand WP:BLPUNDEL? Have you read it? I have serious concerns regarding your interpretation of facts and policy. That you think @Justlettersandnumbers recommended submitting the article to AfC prior to me opening this thread defies any notion of reality. TarnishedPathtalk05:31, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Links were already given to every claim. And the “serial pest” claim was right here. No point of repeating.
You voiced your concern on the admins talk page about deletion/protection of the article. Without even waiting for their response (= afc), you came running here opened this dubious ANI (and began disparaging the subject and calling them “serial pest”).
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Continued articletalk disruption despite repeated warnings
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Inspector Colombo's edit count is 152 edits. Aside from a reverted article edit and 9 usertalk edits, all but two of those edits have been to Talk:Lillie Langtry.
His posts are massive rambling diatribes full of personal attacks and aspersions and accusations, and numerous random irrelevant asides. Not only that – after posting these massive diatribes he then endlessly rewrites them, often dozens of times each, long after editors have read or responded to them, so that they do not state what they originally did.
Inspector Colombo has long since exhausted the patience of the two editors who attempted to respond to him. AnthonyCamp stopped responding to him on 11 May. DuncanHill stopped responding on 11 November.
In August I archived the articletalk ramblings and warned the user about WP:NOTAFORUM, WP:WALLSOFTEXT, WP:PA, WP:OR, WP:BLUDGEON, and WP:NOTESSAY on his usertalk [22]. However, he started up again in November with the same issues, and was warned again on his usertalk on 22 December and explicitly instructed precisely how to use articletalk [23]. He has however started up again with the same behavior, reviving his disruptive articletalk ramblings.
I issued an indefinite block with a message to the effect that an appeal may be successful if there is a plausible explanation of how future problems would be avoided. Johnuniq (talk) 05:35, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
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Latest comment: 11 months ago9 comments6 people in discussion
Brion Carroll has been indefinitely blocked from editing James Naismith and given instructions on using the article's talk page to propose changes. Closing this report because content (not conduct) discussions are continuing here rather than on the article talk page where it belongs. Schazjmd(talk)15:23, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
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User Brion Carroll is in violation of WP:SELFPROMOTE. This user is adding unsourced content to James Naismith that is directly contradictory to a well established documented fact (Naismith inventing basketball) and is using the book "Nais-MYTH: Basketball's Stolen Legacy" as their source in their edit summaries and on their talk page. Amazon lists an author named "Brion Carroll". Recommend either an outright ban or a topic ban for James Naismith and Basketball.--Rockchalk71716:16, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Actually I think WP:SELFCITE is the appropriate policy and I know there's other policies for using sources you have a personal connection to, I just don't know them off the top of my head.--Rockchalk71716:27, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
I'm not sure who you "Rockchalk717" are - but you should know that any modifications to James Naismith's profile is done based on researched, emperical evidence that contradicts those altered areas of Naismith's role in the invention of Basketball.
I am more than willing to have a discussion on this topic and (yes) the book Nais-MYTH: Basketball's Stolen Legacy has much of the basis of these suggested modifications.
The world is not flat as some thoroughly believed before being proven wrong (with evidence).
There is virtually no historic evidence that James Naismith invented Basketball. However, there is a plethora of printed evidence that the game of Basketball was invented by Lambert Will; that the game was being played in Central New York 10 months (Feb/1891) before Naismith even knew how to combine a ball and basket; and therefore the adjustments made were factually proven (even as agreed to by a heavily validated Washington Post analysis/article). Brion Carroll (talk) 16:16, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Well, as to that, we're not sure who YOU are ... to the degree that's at all pertinent. You will understand if the rest of the world strongly disagrees with your assertion, believes that there is in fact overwhelming evidence that basketball was invented by Naismith, and would require very strong documentary evidence to the contrary above and beyond your personal say-so. As THTFY said, set forth that evidence on the Talk page. Ravenswing 12:01, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Another historic record is in the 1898 Utica Daily Press article (see https://www.originofbasketball.com/historic-evidence.html) that details the initial game play of Basketball started with Lambert Will as its captain in 1891, replaced by Frank Peterson from 1892-1897.
Note that the humans referenced in the article were STILL ALIVE and would have challenged the article if (indeed) it had been falsely reported. Local news for local people.
That IS EVIDENCE. However, there is historic evidence that James Naismith invented it except for dozens of books restating what he said versus was unbiased evidence (such as the articles noted) prove. Brion Carroll (talk) 15:13, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
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Over 50 instances of IP vandalism by user who's using over 15 IP addresses
Latest comment: 11 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
A single anonymous editor has been using over 15 IP addresses to vandalise St Joseph's Institution, Singapore over 50 instances since August this year, also leaving vandalism and somewhat abusive messages on multiple editors' talk pages.
I have not linked divs here as for the most part, these IPs' contribution comprise only the acts of vandalism, which are mostly the same thing, either calling SJI a school full of rapists and pedophiles, blanking sections en masse, and telling users that SJI is a bad school:
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Latest comment: 11 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Merry Christmas everyone! 173.29.27.108(talk·contribs·WHOIS) has been blocked twice before for adding unsorted content to BLPs, but they are still at it. They are also making edits that are clear vandalism, such as this, which makes me think the unsourced content is also nonsense...although some editsare valid and I have been able to verify the info. GiantSnowman11:56, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This user is engaged in an editorial war based on ideological beliefs. I made edits to the page based on constructive considerations, primarily citing a United Nations General Secretariat (UNGS) report from 2002 that refers to Morocco as the administrative power in Western Sahara. This differs from the original source, which appears to draw its own conclusions without referencing any international body decision .
While the original source attributes the term "occupation" to scholarly analysis, I argue that the United Nations Security Council (UNSC) resolutions consistently refer to the region as disputed, not occupied, and so does the UNGS.
I have engaged in a discussion on the article talk page, providing a rationale for my edits and attempting to address concerns raised by the other editor [1][2]
The other editor instead prefers to engage in personalizing the debate and an editorial war.
Do you have any diffs regarding the other editor's behavior? Otherwise it appears more like a content dispute not necessarily suited for ANI. ChaotıċEnby(t · c)19:18, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
This a simple content dispute, and this noticeboard does not comment on such; as it says at the top of the page, it is for "chronic and unmanageable behavioral problems." However, there do appear to be two behavioural issues here; firstly, after M.Bitton reverted your edit, your next stop should have been the article's talk page, not to reply on your talk page and immediately revert again (see WP:BRD). Also, you do not appear to have provided any justification for your claims that M.Bitton's edits are based on "ideological beliefs", so you might want to strike those comments. Black Kite (talk)19:24, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
I posted my reasoning on the article talk page, but M.Bitton ignored my comments, reverted my edits, and commented on my talk page instead.
M.Bitton repeatedly refers to the situation as "which describes it as what it is, an occupation," despite neither the United Nations Security Council (UNSC) nor the UNGS using such terminology. Ignoring international resolutions in favor of scholarly conclusions suggests an ideological bias. Raye Smith (talk) 19:55, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
As I noted in the SPI as well, while it's not clear that this is the same person as Morrocan, it seems quite clear that this is not their first account or their first argument with M.Bitton. signed, Rosguilltalk19:59, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Latest comment: 11 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
User:AKASH_TH15 has been adding unreliable sources such as boxofficeadda.com,[24],[25], despite many warnings from me and another editor. Warning 1 [26], Warning 2 [27] and replied with apology [28] but continued to readd unreliable source, Warning 3 [29], Warning 4 [30]. Then User:AKASH_TH15 copied and pasted warning 4 from his talk page to my talk page.[31] and continued to add unreliable source that fails WP:ICTFSOURCES[32]. User:AKASH_TH15 has been ignoring warnings and Wikipedia policies and continues to disrupt by replacing reliable sources with unreliable ones.
Warning 5 from another editor [33] and user AKASH_TH15 still continues to disrupt.
Warning 6 [34]. He went ahead and also created page on Wikipedia for boxofficeadda.com with unreliable sources.[35]. Looks like he is trying to promote this site. There have been enough warnings but no change in an improvement in behavior. RangersRus (talk) 20:00, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
I've nominated the article for speedy deletion per CSD A7: I think the closest the article gets to credibly claiming importance. is "has been used by some leading newspapers as reference", but I don't think that even gets there. It's borderline, though, maybe I should've just gone for AfD. Remsense留20:14, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago9 comments4 people in discussion
I had issues with the edits of this user before, mainly due to their insistence on adding unsourced trivia content in various anime articles (more specifically in episode sections), content that is of no one's interest but their own. I have suggested them before to discuss the matter on talk pages, to which they have refused and continued to make the same kind of edits, ignoring any kind of objection. Now, there is this particular MOS, MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, which clearly indicates to avoid adding links to sections within the article, given that the table of contents provides that function. To be honest, it has only been a few months since I and other editors began to adhere to this MOS, and sincerely, despite the time I have been here, I didn't know about it until recently, so I try to be empathetic with other editors who are not familiar with the MOS and continue to edit contrary to what it indicates, in other words, assume good faith. The problem is that I have warned KANLen09 on several occasions through edit summaries to stop re-adding these links once they were removed, pointing out the specific MOS, and if that hadn't been enough (thinking that, maybe, they just didn't see those edit summay warnings), I wrote them directly on their talk page about the issue. The result? The user continues to this date adding those links, without, at the very least, explaining why they continue to do so. I have little reason to believe that they're not deliberately ignoring the warnings. Their edits are almost disruptive at this point, and if they're not doing them on purpose (which is highly unlikely), makes me wonder if this could be considered a WP:CIR case. I didn't want to get to this point, but the user has been trying my patience for a while now. Xexerss (talk) 07:15, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
I also agree with @Xexerss on this, I had to edit a lot of articles because this user keeps Ignoring MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE and keeps adding links to sections within the articles which is against what that MOS says and no matter how many times I tell them, it's like they don't care. It's honestly becoming really frustrating. I single handedly have edited near 100 articles and more to implement MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE and now this person is undoing them one by one and as @Xexerss said this user is trying my patience now. Parham.es (talk) 22:40, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
I looked at the talk page of KANLen09 (talk·contribs)—there is almost no explanation there. Also, I just looked at MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE and could not follow the point because on my browser MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE did not display the Purpose section. Per WP:AGF and the principle that Wikipedia is too big to rely on admins educating people, next time please use a few more words on user talk (and a couple of diff links) to spell out the problem. Finally, I looked at a couple of recent edits and did not notice a INFOBOXPURPOSE issue. Please use a couple of diffs here. Johnuniq (talk) 04:33, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE says: "When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored, with exceptions noted below). The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance. Of necessity, some infoboxes contain more than just a few fields; however, wherever possible, present information in short form, and exclude any unnecessary content. Avoid links to sections within the article; the table of contents provides that function."
which means to avoid things like #Episodes or #Volumes and other #X which are sections within the article itself as a hyperlink in the Infobox. The reason you didn't see a INFOBOXPURPOSE issue is because me, @Xexerss and other editors are keep fixing them. As for diffs, here you go:
As I said, based on MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE you should not add #Episodes as a hyperlink in infobox which means (| episode_list =) should be empty unless episodes are in another article such as "List of X episodes" (it's just an example). Parham.es (talk) 13:40, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Here are a few of the several instances when I showed them the MOS and requested to stop adding links to sections within the article. I didn't elaborate too much in my warning on their talk page because I assumed that the user was aware of the ones already made through edit summaries, given that those are articles frequently edited by the user. Note that the diffs posted above by Parham.es are after my warning of their talk page, and also after this own ANI report, so indeed there are still INFOBOXPURPOSE issues. I really have no reason to believe that the user is unaware of the matter and is not doing it on purpose. Xexerss (talk) 14:33, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
As I said before, I already explained the issue on their talk page with a link to the MOS in question, and the user keeps acting contrary to what it says. There is also this ANI report notification on their talk page, but the user refuses to rectify their edits. Edit summary warnings aside, given the fact that I have directly warned the user on their talk page and also notified them of this report, do I have to believe that the user is not aware of the matter yet? Xexerss (talk) 19:02, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
The user keeps making the same edits in the same articles, even when they have been warnedtwice in one. The user have been directly warned on their talk page, notified about this ANI report, and has not give any explanation of the motive behind their edits yet. Seriously, what more evidence is needed to prove that the user is being purposefully disruptive? Xexerss (talk) 20:59, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
KANLen09 posted on my talk page their reasons behind their edits and intentions to improve them. I have decided to trust their words, so from my part, I think that this discussion can be closed. Xexerss (talk) 04:42, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago5 comments3 people in discussion
The user has been informed of CTOP [36], warned [37][38] and/or challenged [39] by other editors, and already temp blocked twice [40][41] (unblock request declined: [42]) for POV-pushing by adding/removing locality names in Ukraine and Russia. A couple of days ago he did it again at Volnovakha[43]. Perhaps paradoxically, some of his edits in areas closer to my interests are not bad (for instance, this is a good addition), but it is apparently dependent on whether what they are editing aligns with their views or not. Ostalgia (talk) 09:03, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
They probably need an indef block. I warned them sufficiently, blocked a couple of times, they never responded (other than posting an unblock request) and never changed their behavior. Ymblanter (talk) 14:51, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
You should have thought of this before persistently making these edits in spite of the advice, warnings, and blocks you got. At this point you are most likely going to avoid an indef because no uninvolved administrator seems particularly keen on looking at this report (which is understandable given that it was posted on the 24th of December), so don't waste this "second chance" (it's more like a fifth or sixth chance, but you get the point) and try to steer clear from problematic edits. Cheers. Ostalgia (talk) 11:39, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion
122.106.10.1(talk·contribs·deleted contribs·logs·filter log·block user·block log) was blocked on 19 December for 72 hours due to poor edits (spelling, grammar, formatting, MOS, or other content errors) on nearly every edit, and not responding to talk page notices such as here. Once the first ANI notice was published they left a couple messages on my talk page defending their edits
At first I thought that their edit I reverted here might have been a mistake, so I issued a warning. But it's really a very weird mistake to make, and after looking at the user's history I'm convinced that it was deliberate.
This feels like a targeted. I mistakenly just changed a nickname at the lead page, which wasn't my initial intend. I feel like this is a power trip. You reached out to my talk page and I haven't responded yet you bring this to administrative notices. I haven't been in any beef for past 7 months and trying to adapt with wikipedia's editing policy as much as possible. I feel like my past mistakes has been used up against me to power trip. Imamul Ifaz (talk) 21:23, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
You may be right. However, changing out a correct name for a very obviously incorrect name without any explanation [45] is not the type of mistake that everyone makes. It either degrades Wikipedia or takes away valuable time from other editors. You really must start being more careful when editing. Can you promise that you will do so? ☿ Apaugasma (talk☉)15:09, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
User:Happyjit Singh not following standard layout and also not keen to discuss.
The user primarily edits articles related to Indian elections just like I do. The problem is that he doesn't want to follow the Manual of Style/Layout for Indian election articles that is MOS:INDELECT despite being asked to do so repeatedly. If we look at his talk page he has been asked multiple times to follow the layout but he has failed every time. I myself while reverting his disruptive edits mentioned in edit summaries to follow the layout. The most recent example is his recent edits where he has added parties which are not considered major contenders in the infobox violating Wikipedia:WikiProject Indian politics/Election: Article structure#Infobox which says Only those parties that are covered by Reliable Media as a major contender for winning that election are listed in the infobox. The number of potential contenders can be 2,3 or 4 etc. Many parties and independents will contest in the election, all of them cannot be added in the infobox. and The major contenders should not be removed from infobox after the results are declared even if they get 0 seats, because they "were" the major contenders "during" the election. Now after he added the non-major contenders in various articles I reverted his edits and left a message at his talk page User talk:Happyjit Singh#Can you please understand. I asked him once again to follow the layout but he ignored my advise and went on to revert my reverts. I again reverted him and broadly explained both at his talk page and in edit summaries that your additions are disputed and should be added only after it is resolved. But he replies with something from god knows where and restores his edits the way he wants and asks me to add parties with atleast 1 seat and remove them after the results are declared if they get 0 seat. Now if I do this which I won't I will be violating the standard layout which says the major contenders at the time of election should not be removed even if they get 0 seats bcoz they were considered major at the time of the election. He has been warned by multiple editors before also to stop his disruptions and personal analysis as they violate WP:NOR and Wikipedia:SYNTH but he doesn't want to listen to any of these things. Now after restoring the last version twice within 24 hours if I do so once again I shall be violating WP:3RR which I don't want.
I am not providing revision links as there are many and it can be easily accessed in the contributions history of both of us. Still if something is needed I am happy to provide. I am pinging Dhruv edits who too has warned him multiple times. ShaanSenguptaTalk06:21, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
I warned the user that they must respond here before other editing in order to avoid an indefinite block. I have no idea who is right but clearly the issue needs to be settled without further edit warring. Johnuniq (talk) 06:57, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
@Johnuniq I hope this makes you understand better. The whole thing is about which parties are to be mentioned in the infobox. Now this was a content dispute initially and was meant to be resolved through discussion. I thought of reporting this at dispute resolution board but brought it here to ANI bcoz of repeated reverts by the user. Coming to the topic. MOS:INDELECT is the Standard Layout for all Indian election articles. Now the Infobox section says that only parties that are considered as major contender by reliable sources should be added bcoz many parties will be contesting and it is not possible to add every party. That was what was there before Happyjit added small parties with 1-2 seats in previous elections which violates the layout as they aren't covered as major contender by reliable sources and this also violates WP:NOR and WP:SYNTH. ShaanSenguptaTalk07:13, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
It is totally your problem that you can't remember the rules. And just bcoz you and I both are extended confirmed doesn't mean that you are free to ignore all the warnings and advises of another user. Also it doesn't mean that an EC user can't make mistakes. This again shows that you are moving closer to WP:NOTTHERE as you can't remember rules, you are no longer needed to listen to other EC users and many more. ShaanSenguptaTalk07:27, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
@Happyjit Singh if you see MOS:INDELECT its very first line says This reference is a guideline on writing about Indian Election (Parliamentary and Legislative Election) this means that all the elections that are a part of 2024 Indian general election come under it. Those articles are made to specify the scenario of general elections statewise. For example 2024 Indian general election in Uttar Pradesh is a parliamentary election that is a part of 2024 Indian general election so it falls under it. It is not an independent election. It is just a detailed explanation of how the 2024 Indian general elections went in Uttar Pradesh. And the header of MOS:INDELECT is Wikipedia:WikiProject Indian politics/Election: Article structure which means all Indian election articles should be made under its guidelines. ShaanSenguptaTalk07:19, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Isn't it wrong to add alliance vote share and seats in place of parties. In parliamentary election by state how we can judge major party. Happyjit Singh (talk) 07:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
I've edited the pages as per as the format used in last election. Dhruv had warned me for adding opiion poll and result by party table. But had not warned you even though you've added opinion poll table in Next Bihar Legislative Assembly election. You can't ignore my contributions in improving in previous general election pages, past legislative election pages, general election pages by state and science. Happyjit Singh (talk) 07:07, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
The content dispute is at one side and you ignoring my message at your talk page and restoring your edits violating all the policies is just a abuse of your editing privileges. I told you not to restore those things before discussing but you just were not so much interested in following the rule and says I was late. This is just not so civil and shows your aggressive way of editing. This could have been let go if you were new but you now are an extended confirmed user, so you should have been more careful. ShaanSenguptaTalk07:23, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Please pick an example article where this dispute is evident and put a link to it here. Then discuss what should happen for that particular article on its article talk page. I will offer an opinion after seeing the result. Remind me after the outcome at the example article is either agreed or at a stalemate. Johnuniq (talk) 07:37, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
This is how the article looked before the dispute arose. Now Happyjit adds a party with just 1 seat and 0.73% vote share in the infobox which is not a major contender at Revision as of 14:24, 23 December 2023 saying Parties with atleast 1 seat must be added as in country wise European Parliament election pages even if they have less than 1% vote share. Now what makes me say that it is not a major contender. Two things, first the last election stats and second the reliable sources analysis. We can see 2024 Indian general election in Maharashtra#Surveys and polls to see the analysis by reliable sources (The section is transcluded from Opinion polling for the 2024 Indian general election). It shows two alliances as NDA & I.N.D.I.A. (whose prominent member parties are in infobox, the first 6 parties) and mentions Others. Now the party added by Happyjit in this article is AIMIM which is included in others by the agencies which signifies that it is not covered as a major contender for this election.
I revert him at Revision as of 17:16, 24 December 2023 and tell him that We follow Indian election articles structure not European. Please take MOS:INDELECT as a guideline/layout. He ignores the advise bcoz he thinks he is not needed to follow it since he too is an EC user (as stated above) and restores without wanting a need to discuss. I revert him and leave message at his talk page asking him to discuss before reverting. But he ignores once again and restores his version. Then again I ask him to wait and discuss otherwise I will be forced to report to which he says I am late. Then I came here. All of this can be seen in the contributions history and Happyjit's talk page. ShaanSenguptaTalk07:54, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
@Shaan Sengupta: I'm sorry to be picky but your current message at article talk is not optimum. I know all this bureaucracy is frustrating but things will work out best if the article discussion is focused on the issue. Like I said just above, it would help others if you briefly explained the basics. Sure, link to the guideline but also add a sentence outlining what it says and why you think it is that way. That is, how does it help the article that the guideline be followed? If no one has replied, I suggest replacing your current text with something that outlines the issues in way that would help beginners. There is no need to mention another editor or "violating" or "despite being asked". Stick to the article issue. Johnuniq (talk) 08:21, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
@Johnuniq I have made changes according to your advise and best of my ability. Please see and let me know if its okay or something more is needed.
Also if you can please let Happyjit know that the layout MOS:INDELECT is applicable on all Indian election articles and specially these since these are just a part of 2024 Indian general election and not an independent election as this is just a seperate article to show the scenario of every state, bcoz by his replies it seems he won't listen to me. This is very much needed. ShaanSenguptaTalk08:34, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Shaan Sengupta, a single editor wrote 73% of the content of that information page and there is no talk page discussion whatsoever. The editor in question has been blocked four times and has been inactive for eight months. In other words, I have found no evidence that this page represents community consensus. Cullen328 (talk) 06:43, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
The user made a serious allegation against me here. This comes in the context of an AfD, which I recommend you to read. The editor has previously made an another questionable remark ('The "concerns" raised about Keramikou 28 appear to be more personally motivated than reflective of adherence to Wikipedia rules.') and ad hominem arguments (claiming I am incompetent to judge tone of text, because I have an "intermediate" level of English, as is written on my user page). I can not disprove that the editor may have communicated with a victim of a AfD-exploiting fraud. But even in that hypothetical situation, the editor is too quick to make claims unsupported by anything other. I can, however, explain what led me to nominate the article for deletion:
I have made a question at WP:VPT. I found the talk page of the TFA of the day as an example of the third issue. Later the day, an image was removed from the TFA (for reasons on the talk page) and I decided to nominate it for deletion on Commons. I was told there is a problem with the problem with the image being in use on TFA archives, so I asked about it on WP:HD and I was led to WT:TFA, where I started a discussion. Later, searching for policies related to the discussion, I found CAT:MISSFILE. I emptied it (the date was December 10 – see my contributions), and one of the articles I edited in the process was Kerameikou 28. The article got into the category because an editor changed all instances of "Keramikou" to "Kerameikou" without renaming a file whose name contained "Keramikou". After several edits to the article on the following days, I finally nominated the article for deletion for the reasons in the top of the AfD entry.
I think my argument is sufficient to disprove that my nomination was made in a COI. I would like you to judge Errico Boukoura's conduct.
Janhrach (talk) 20:49, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
I haven't yet looked into this enough to comment on the content issue, but I can see that Errico Boukoura made a very tenuous claim of Janhrach having a conflict of interest while admitting that he had a clear conflict of interest himself (Errico seems to be a male name). Phil Bridger (talk) 21:04, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
I have been attempting to make changes to Kerameikou 28 since the AfD was opened. Unfortunately, Janhrach is not clear on what the problems are, as he keeps changing the issues with the page.
Personally, I do not find it offensive to state that an individual who is not a native speaker of English (and claims to be intermediate on his personal page) as they actually cannot provide proficient corrections in English in any way.
Furthermore, my statement about Janhrach 's potential conflict of interest is purely hypothetical. I only mentioned it as there isn't a clear reason yet as to why Kerameikou 28 was marked for deletion.
I would also like to express my personal opinion regarding the transition from the AfD to here. It seems a bit excessive, as Janhrachand I are currently focused on discussing the developments related to Kerameikou 28, and not engaged in any conflict. Errico Boukoura (talk) 23:51, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
NOTE: I don't fall under the term 'conflict of interest' as I am a professor conducting research outside of any institution, organization, financial or otherwise. I don't know or have met anyone from Kerameikou and I only recently obtained the phone number of the previous owner.
Errico Boukoura, I do not understand your problem with Janhrach's English language proficiency. English is my mother tongue and I have no difficulty whatsoever understanding Janhrach, and the editor is certainly capable enough in English to nominate an article for AfD. Your repeated criticism of the editor's language skills at the AfD, complete with boldface and underscores and bold all caps, is way out of line. As is your strange, evidence free attempt to tie the editor to some phone conversation with the previous owner and some vague, unsubstantiated threat. So, I highly encourage you to avoid that type of unjustified criticism of a colleague. Focus, instead, on demonstrating the notability of the topic and specific ways that the article can be improved. Cullen328 (talk) 06:53, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
(assuming I am writing to Errico Boukoura) There is still a lot of things to improve. There are typos, unreferenced claims (e.g. how is this URL related to the Role in Athens Arts Scene section otherwise having no other references, what claims are sourced by which references in Community, etc.) and tone issues (e.g. The End of Kerameikou 28 is toned promotionally, actual information there is worth two sentences at most, et cetera. The list I provided before was a counterargument that I can discern tone and was not meant to be exhaustive). We are going off topic. ANI is meant to discuss conduct. By the way, AfD also isn't fit for this, these are matters that were to be handled back at AfC, but you fraudulently bypassed it. Has that not happened, the article wouldn't be facing AfD now. Janhrach (talk) 13:30, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
Please consolidate all your concerns into a single message so that I can address them collectively. The mention of Role in Athens Arts Scene section is the first time it has been raised as an issue.
What you want to do is not a matter for AfD. It is not meant to be opened indefinitely until the article is ready. Draftification and a subsequent AfC submission are for that. And at AfC, there will be more competent people than me to suggest changes. Janhrach (talk) 13:48, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
Since the pages was published, the article has already been approved as ready. Once you or anyone else addresses any further problems, I will look into it and changed (or added) the issue within 2-3 weeks. My fast-response to your concerns proves that I am more than willing to make any changes if needed.
I would like to excuse myself, while I am currently engaged in another project as well. I will exclusively participate and respond to matters only related to Kreameikou 28 changes.
Any inquiries beyond that scope will be addressed at a later time.
One last thing: the article was not accepted. This cut-down version was. What is there now was expressly declined in previous AfC submissions, yet you re-added most of what was previously declined. Janhrach (talk) 14:29, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
As mention above, any inquiries beyond that scope of Kerameikou 28 will be addressed at a later time.
There is a new comment at the AfD, I strongly recommend you to read it, the argument is well-reasoned. @Errico Boukoura: The reasons for AfD are same from the beginning: bypassing AfC, tone issues and references. I brought this to ANI because you accused me of being connected to someone who "threatened" (extorted?) somebody over an article, without absolutely any independently verifiable evidence. Janhrach (talk) 07:40, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
Thinking the allegation over, I can't find any reason why would the new owner of the building complain to the past one (as opposed to the group that resided in the building) about the Wikipedia article. My AfD-exloiting scam hypothesis is almost definitely false – why would a scammer try to contact somebody who is no longer connected to the article subject and whose contact information is hard-to-find? I can't help myself, but I see the phone call as a fabrication.
As mentioned earlier, any inquiries beyond the scope of Kerameikou 28 will be addressed at a later time. Please focus on the issues related to the Kerameikou 28 Wikipedia page for now. I will not respond to any further questions until the deletion of Kerameikou 28 has been settled. 91.80.89.32 (talk) 09:46, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
I am aware that you don't want to respond to queries unrelated to Kerameikou 28, but you don't have a right to suspend this ANI thread for that reason. The above message was not addressed mainly or exclusively to you. Janhrach (talk) 12:05, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
This is a collaborative environment. If you flatly refuse to engage in discussing potential changes to the article, other editors are free to make their own changes without your input. Stonewalling is a bad tactic. Also, please remember to sign in before making edits or comments. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite18:36, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
@HandThatFeeds: Excuse me, did you address me or Errico Boukoura? I think my refusal to discuss the article here, at ANI, was legitimate, and Errico Boukoura refused to discuss matters other than the article, not the article. Janhrach (talk) 10:11, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
The IP/Errico, who is constantly deflecting. You can tell who is being replied to by the indentation of the post, mine is equal to yours because we were both replying to him. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite13:40, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
I was one of them, I think? Hopefully the AfD closing soon will cut this issue off at the pass, but if it doesn't a p-block/p-ban has to be on the cards here. Daniel (talk) 20:05, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article is an apparent POV coatrack attack page, extreme undue weight on old and poorly reviewed, fringey material basically designed to bash Japanology/Japanese studies as a legit topic, and possibly undisclosed COI editing. Nishidani is reverting copy edits (Nishidani reverts almost any edit I make on any page), constructive rewriting or removing of unsourced material, and templates, with derisory messages
Can you please tell him not to, or if I'm wrong, tell me? I know he is a regular, we've tangled in the past. Does he have any connection, given his username being also Japanese and his early editing going back to 2008 and earlier on that page? They've responded with an allegation here User_talk:Nishidani#December_2023. To be clear, as you can see from my edits, I edit many articles, including recent reviews of Japan articles, and I created maneki-neko back in 2004, as does Nishidani. I've also created Minoru Arakawa, Shigesato Itoi, PC-6000 series and edited other Japanese topic articles. Should we read his message to read that because I am in a dispute with someone else that agrees with him, he can revert any of my edits on any page he ever edited? Lest someone think that I am instigating this, I was constructively editing the article, and see what Nishidani did? Remove all the templates, restore all the unsourced content tagged since 2015 and 2017? Blatant incivil messages? Need I invoke ONUS and RS and V and CIVIL? REMOVING the reliable references in journals and reference improvements I added? [combined and edited into one line; edited again Andre🚐10:56, 27 December 2023 (UTC)] 10:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
It should be noted that since nothing in WP:CoI policy even remotely suggests that either being Japanese, having a Japanese user name, nor knowing something about the subject matter of an article constitute a conflict of interest. Your blatant attempt to provoke a contributor you have tangled with elsewhere by posting an utterly inappropriate zero-evidence CoI template [57] as your first response to a revert of your edit will no doubt thus backfire on you. I'd drop it now, before more people start looking at the sequence of events here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:43, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
I posted that in response to the perceived possible COI, given again the similar Japanese name and the immediate revert and their revert comment. I edited that template to a different message[58] since the original note wasn't the one I wanted, which you can see in that talk history. and in response to that the editor stated on their talk they are are "former Japanologist," which would confirm the WP:OR tags placed since 2015 on that article that I was attempting to remedy, which Nishidani reverted. Now they say I'm banned from this page, is that allowed? [59]WP:OWN, WP:ONUSAndre🚐11:44, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for admitting once again that you have absolutely no remotely valid evidence to justify making allegations of a CoI as your first response to being reverted. This was self-evidently done to pick a fight, as should be obvious to anyone. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:50, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
How is it fair that I am the one picking the fight? I made productive edits, they reverted it, with a comment that indicated to me possible OR/COI, so I asked them if they have a connection to the topic, and they confirmed one, a former Japanologist, inserting OR. I don't have any other evidence than the evidence I've given so far, which again, should be sufficient to show a problem. Andre🚐11:54, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Yes, the evidence is entirely sufficient to show a problem. When a someone who's been a contributor since 2003 posts entirely evidence-free claims of a CoI on another established contributor's talk page as the first response to being reverted, it is most definitely problematic. Are we really expected to believe you don't understand what a CoI is after all these years? AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:59, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Really, I was trying to send a template that says "do you have too close of a connection to the topic," and how does this obviate the evidence above of problematic behavior? Are you saying my edits were not good? Andre🚐12:01, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
You have presented no evidence of problematic behaviour. Not from Nishidani, anyway. Or has WP:BRD been revised lately, to say that when reverted your first response should be accuse your reverter of knowing the subject matter, and thereby having a conflict of interest? AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:06, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
I have absolutely no opinion on whether the templates were valid, whether the article contained unsourced material, whether it contained OR, and whether Nishidani was responsible for any of it. I haven't looked at it in the detail necessary to make such a determination, and I suspect I don't know enough about the subject matter to be able to tell. That isn't a question for WP:ANI though, since that would be a content dispute, and we are looking into behavioural issues here - namely, your essentially evidence-free allegations against Nishidani, made as a first response to being reverted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:14, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
I didn't say who was responsible for it originally, but Nishidani restored it, so he becomes responsible for it then. That is policy. As far as the rest, thank you for admitting that you didn't review the diffs, which do substantiate a behavioral issue, which is recurring. I've just come over to do some productive edits and I'd like to be able to engage productively without being insulted or having editors restoring unsourced material and then say they own the article. That is behavioral. And the evidence is right there. Andre🚐12:16, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Sorry, I read that as "don't edit the article." I will not post to their talk anymore, unless to notify them of a discussion which I have to do Andre🚐11:53, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Something needs to be done with Andrevan. They're basically maintaining the battleground behavior that has just got them topic-banned by SFR from Israel/Palestine, and most of their subsequent activity seems to be trolling people. ——Serial12:16, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
The bit where you looked through Nishidani's contribution history to find an article to pick a fight on. Or was it pure coincidence that you picked an obscure article on aspects of Japanese literature to edit on, and then to post into Wikipediocracy's 'Crap Article' thread? AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:23, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Are you saying that I, as an editor who has made about 1800 edits and a number of page curation reviews this month to a variety of different topics, some of which are Japan-related and were not edited by Nishidani, could not have possibly edited an article that Nishidani, who has 94,000 edits, edited in the last 20 years? Andre🚐12:27, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
And how many of those other edits have led to you accusing people of having a CoI on the basis that they appear to know the subject matter? AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:34, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Yes, it's a huge mess, that I'm trying to cleanup, and being obstructed. Before I forget, I asked WProject Japan for help too, since it seems like people are getting ready to indef me for having the gall to edit an article that Nishidani edited 20 years ago. [61] So before someone attacks this, it's not forum shopping, the article needs help. Andre🚐12:28, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
(ec) This appears to be a quick and unnecessary escalation of a content dispute. Hopefully this can be amicably resolved by having the report withdrawn by the OP and discussion on how to improve the article on its talk page. Isabelle Belato🏳🌈12:30, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi good afternoon. It's about the user M.bitton Nationalistic POV with whom I can't have a meaningful discussion. The point is that I pointed out that under Algeria's formation some dynasties in Algeria are not correct. Another user kindly corrected this. M.bitton has now changed the formation in Tunisia without any significant justification. Apparently M. Bitton recognized that the "Roman Empire" does not belong to the Algerian formation. Be that as it may, he only changed the Tunisian formation because there are now significantly fewer dynasties under formation in Algeria than in Tunisia. That's why he has the formation without any justification changed in Tunisia. That's just Nationalic POV according to the motto "If there is no dynasty in Algeria, there can't be one in Tunisia either." Furthermore, in the Moroccan Wikipedia under Establishment I have named several dynasties with sources that count as sources in other Wikipedias (Spanish, French, German), but not for M. Bitton, he removed them with the words "Per your edit on the Algeria article". Here too it is a nationalistic POV according to the motto: "If you change something in Algeria, I will also change something in Morocco". M.bitton has now warned me because I have edited back the formation that he unfoundedly removed in Tunisia. Now I'm afraid of being banned. can you please help me. He doesn't want to have a discussion. Izmir18 (talk) 19:14, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
I will spare you the content issue that I'm trying to sort out. Please see this section that the OP removed from their talk page (starting with Word has gotten around on social media that..). M.Bitton (talk) 19:23, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
That actually has nothing to do with this case. But I would be happy to explain again what the problem is. On Instagram and also on tiktok you can often be seen as (Redacted) in videos doing question edits, for example here:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Outline_of_Morocco. This article is about Morocco and not "Morocco and what it claims" or "Morocco and what it illegally occupies". Writing something like this on such a sensitive topic shows your attitude towards Morocco. I kindly pointed out to you that it was making the rounds on social media and recommended that you perhaps not use such formulations. That was actually a well-intentioned tip from me since you also use questionable wording in other edits. But here too they are trying to distract from the topic. Izmir18 (talk) 19:30, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
The reason I wrote was that it probably has a nationalistic background. I explained the reason to you in detail. Here too you are trying to distract from the topic. Is it actually a personal attack to indirectly call someone a sock? Izmir18 (talk) 19:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Nationalistic POV? I think that solely applies to you here. Could you explain why you bothered adding a bunch of dynasties to the infobox in Morocco[62] while simultaneously deleting those in Algeria[63]? Skitash (talk) 19:43, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
I wanted to say again that I had added the dynasty in Morocco and at that point all the dynasties and the "Roman Empire" were under Algeria's formation. and yet that was changed by M.bitton. This was done several times not only by me but apparently by others too. and then pick on me for something M.bitton has been doing for years is unfair. (no personal attack) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1190630184
I'm sure you deliberately chose the second edit and not the first because otherwise it would be clear that I'm not nationalistically motivated..... Izmir18 (talk) 20:22, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
picking on me, which M.bitton has been doing for years this is very interesting (given that your account was registered 2 weeks ago). M.Bitton (talk) 20:25, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Yes, according to the history of the edit pages... the contribution from "Outline of Morocco" is from 2021......There are many videos of you... You keep trying to confuse the topic. Of course I haven't been here for years... that was related to your edit history Izmir18 (talk) 20:33, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
I don't mean me. I mean in general...M.bitton constantly changes things without justification or sources. That wasn't about me. M.bitton has apparently been making changes based on videos on social media for years and keeps his edits history without any real sources and obviously hostile towards Morocco. You can see this in some of the formulations he wrote years ago. Izmir18 (talk) 20:47, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Well, unfortunately I phrased it incorrectly. I wanted to say you guys are picking on me for something M.bitton has been doing for years. That's what I mean Izmir18 (talk) 20:52, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Yes, I made a mistake. I use Google Translate for longer texts. It may be that I was translated incorrectly. But I mean what I wrote. I've corrected it now... I've been on wikipedia for 2 weeks.... Izmir18 (talk) 21:05, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Excuse me, but M.Bitton misquoted Izmir18, leading to the question How could M.Bitton have been picking on your [sic] for years?, which seems to have got Izmir18 so flustered he didn't even think to go back to his own statement and notice that it was a miquote. Izmir18 wrote This was done several times not only by me but apparently by others too. and then pick on me for something M.bitton has been doing for years is unfair. He did not say that M.Bitton (or anyone else) has been picking on him for years. Largoplazo (talk) 22:23, 27 December 2023 (UTC) Never mind! It occurred to me to check the history and I found that Izmir18 altered his own comments after M.Bitton had (correctly) quoted him. My apologies. Largoplazo (talk) 22:27, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
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I doubt it's a MEAT situation; it's more likely a few Christmas sermons were preached about where Jesus was born in relation to current events. Regardless, anyone that does not meet the WP:ARBECR requirements should not be arguing about this. – bradv05:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I was not talking about Israel-Palestine articles. A previous enforcement action was undone, or should I report you as well for misapplying this rule? Ironcladded (talk) 06:09, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
You are still welcome to edit any other topic on Wikipedia, but you cannot participate in discussions related to the Palestine–Israel conflict until you have been here 30 days and have 500 edits. If you wish to appeal this decision, the instructions are on your talk page. – bradv06:12, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
The historicity of Jesus is not remotely or tangentially related to the Palestine-Israel conflict. So why are you blocking me from commenting there? Ironcladded (talk) 06:15, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
So removing Judea, which is the word used on EVERY copy-protected article on this site related to the life of Jesus, is not political? The addition of "Palestine", despite its connotations and NOT being how scholars refer to where Jesus lived, is appropriate?
Motivations for posting to unrelated articles are not a violation of the rule, the articles contents are. There seems to be a lack of an ability to grasp that truth, and certainly the ability to cite specific sections of the rules indicating otherwise. Please show me that motivations are covered by this clause and I will back down. Ironcladded (talk) 14:49, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I am not talking about which term is the correct one. Just that editing on a CTOP shouldn't be done if you are not EC, whether your edits are "the truth" or not. That one edit is CTOP (not "political") doesn't mean the opposite edit isn't too. ChaotıċEnby(t · c)16:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Historicity of Jesus is on my watchlist. The attempts to remove "Palestine" from that article and from Nativity of Jesus are clearly related to the issues raised by 2023 Israel–Hamas war. I don't think it is satisfactory for Ironcladded (talk·contribs) (57 edits, created 27 December 2023) to focus their efforts (all edits?) on removing that word. I am inclined to suggest a voluntary withdrawal or possible a WP:ARBPIA topic ban. If there is no consensus otherwise, I would be happy to semi-protect any articles where this skirmish arises. Johnuniq (talk) 05:56, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I did not remove "Palestine" from Nativity of Jesus. You removed "Judea" from the article and substituted it with "Palestine" despite there not being consensus on the issue. Why are users like you allowed to make 100% baseless accusations against other users and get away with it? Ironcladded (talk) 06:12, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Let me repeat it: that mainstream Bible scholars use the term "Palestine" as applying to Jesus's land and time is not a "baseless" claim.
That's fantastic. Why are you insinuating that I am the person in question? You have refused to cite your sources time after time, and that is being dealt with in a separate dispute resolution thread where you have refused to make your case to an independent arbitrator, instead choosing to report me here for rule violations you have zero evidence I made. Ironcladded (talk) 06:25, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I have 0 (zero, naught) power to block Wikipedians. And to talk logically: no, I am not insinuating that you are three different persons. WP:MEAT means more than one person. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:27, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I do have a strong suspicion that you were one of the edit-warring IPs. But if you want to claim that four persons removed "Palestine" from our articles within several hours, be my guest. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Your "strong suspicion" is irrelevant to the very direct accusation you made against me. I have strong suspicions about a lot of things, I simply don't make accusation off of them, as you choose to do, with zero evidence in hand to corroborate them. Ironcladded (talk) 06:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Again, it is a suspicion, and it will remain a suspicion because checkusers never link usernames to IPs. I'm not a checkuser. Your claim that there were 4 persons involved in removing "Palestine" only makes the case for WP:MEAT stronger. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:50, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for the suspicion. I suspect that you are Ramos1990, because he commented on a (denied) report that you made against me, also with zero evidence. Ironcladded (talk) 06:51, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Seawolf, respectfully, I am here to build an encyclopedia. This user has made antisemitic attacks against me, dragged me through several unsuccessful reports, and made several completely baseless personal claims about me. I don't know if you're reading the discussion, and perhaps respond is against the rules, but is his behavior acceptable? Ironcladded (talk) 07:31, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
To explain my logic: how do I know that you are the same person with one of the IPs? Well, I don't, because it is not a matter of public record. Similarly: how do you know that I'm using the term "Palestine" politically, instead of scholarly? Even if I would privately think that, it is again not a mater of public record.
And the fact that two Bible professors from WP:CHOPSY, who are Jewish, use the term the same as I do, means that I'm not using the term as anti-Israel or as antisemitic. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I insinuated you were antisemitic because our mutual discussion never involved the term "Jewish" anywhere. You asked if the sources you provided were "Jewish enough" for me to admit their validity. How is that NOT politicizing, at best, the issue? Seriously, explain that to me with an explanation that isn't insulting to the intelligence of both of us.
I never disputed that the term "Palestine" was a contemporary term that people make reference of. I disputed your characterization that they say Jesus is from "Palestine", because the name of the province was Judea until 132CE. You did not provide a single source to corroborate that, and launched a series of personal attacks at me, along with non-sequiturs, rather than provide the evidence so that we could move the discussion forward. I provided you evidence that the name of the region at the time of life of Jesus was "Judea" Ironcladded (talk) 07:40, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I never once claimed your edits are polemic. I claimed they were politically motivated after you accused me of Jewish bias, and did point to the fact that a 10 year old article having a contentious, unilateral addition despite ongoing discussion as a way to silence discussion was not correct. I did claim that some of the edits were polemic, and if you think that's you, then that's fine, but I did not accuse you of that.
The two Jewish professors do NOT use it as you do, they use it contemporarily to talk about a boarder region, and pointing to an article talking about the "ancient city-states of Italy" would not change the fact that Caesar is referred to as a Roman. Ironcladded (talk) 08:04, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Respectfully, I will be muting you, I have no further desire to be harassed or dragged through these pointless personal attacks, and baseless accusations. Good day. Ironcladded (talk) 08:06, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Again, you wrote "Stop the edit warring. Palestine was not the name of the region and you are using its name for polemic reasons" at [65], which is an outright reversion of my own reversion. It is hard for me to consider you weren't talking to me.
You also wrote "Recent additions to this article were not made until December of this year, 2 months after a bitter and divisive war started. People are attempting to edit tangential topics to have their viewpoints out in front, and this is not a political forum" at [66]. Again: hard to think that you weren't replying to me. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:31, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Report of bradv for Misuse of Moderation Privileges
User bradv has misapplied rules regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict to include non-related articles that mention the word "Palestine". Of course, the rules as they are written, apply to topics on the conflict itself, not on articles that discuss the historicity of Jesus, which predates that conflict by almost 2000 years. Those with a poor understanding of the rules should not be in charge of enforcing them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ironcladded (talk • contribs) 06:34, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
This is incorrect. Contentious topics are broadly constructed; they apply not only to whole articles but also to parts of articles that have a link to the specific topic. I suspect most would have little hesitation seeing an edit war over whether to use Judea or Palestine as fitting into a broadly constructed Israel-Palestine topic. CMD (talk) 07:15, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
No part of the article has a link to the conflict, and the use of Judea and Palestine was discussed purely based on historical ramifications. Mentioning that there is polemic reasoning for the first addition of "Palestine" 2 months into the conflict does not bring that conflict into the fold. This is incredibly poor logic. Ironcladded (talk) 07:23, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
You're welcome to argue this and more against all those offering advice and opinions, but the most likely outcome is that someone will convert your partial block into a wider one. If you do genuinely want to contribute, I would find another path forward. CMD (talk) 07:37, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I successfully argued this to a moderator already, and his enforcement actions was undone. I am shocked that another moderator would then feel the need to tack the punishment back on at another user's request. The rules are quite clear and specific, and this is not a judicial court where people can interpret them in such a way as to silence others. If you can show me why you believe your interpretation is correct from the standpoint of the rules, with a citation, I will drop this and accept the punishment and advice. Ironcladded (talk) 07:43, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
What's the point of posting this at ANI? This is the noticeboard for administrators—many admins are already aware of this particular tempest on these articles, what are you making admins newly aware of? Remsense留07:50, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I don't understand how talking about the historicity of Jesus, from a purely historical perspective 2000 years before a current conflict, is talking about that conflict? I just want to be pointed to a place in the rules where I can read this and will stay clear. I am not talking on articles related to the conflict, I am using historical evidence in a conversation on that article 2000 years before that conflict took place. Ironcladded (talk) 08:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I'm happy you did! "When the subject of an article is referred to mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language sources, Wikipedia generally follows the sources and uses that name as its article title" this evidence has not been presented. I have presented several pieces of evidence, including an edit-protected version of Jesus' biography, that the name of the region Jesus lived in was known as "Judea". This is generally agreed upon, and is the consensus on copy-protected articles related to the life of Jesus. So, why is that different here, now, 2 months into a modern war? Ironcladded (talk) 08:15, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
As a third-party observer, could I suggest not mentioning the present conflict in Gaza during this discussion/the one on DRN? While it could be seen as being suspicious in its timing (my words, not yours), it seems like a worthwhile exercise to totally excise it from your mind. Everyone wants to establish the best name based on the hard evidence alone, so it shouldn't matter one way or the other. Remsense留08:19, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
If you don't want me to discuss the conflict, then why force me to talk about the conflict in the first place by banning me from discussing a non-conflict related article? Ironcladded (talk) 08:22, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I may have asked a leading question before, but clear that from your mind if you can—I retract it.
The only point I'm making now is: We agree the discussion is about the appropriate name alone, regardless of any short-sighted perspectives. As such, I think repeatedly mentioning the present conflict is beside the point, and could potentially make your case seem weaker, not stronger.
You say your name clearly has the better attestation in the relevant body of sources, so all you have to do is reference them. If you do that, you are in the right. Remsense留08:26, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for the retraction. Yes, I did make an edit where I tangentially mentioned the conflict and suspicious edit timing. But my discussions on the talk page have been purely from a historical perspective. Regardless of that, I have been called out by users who have gone unpunished for taunting me with whether or not their sources were "Jewish enough" for me to accept. This behavior is discouraging to a new user. I acknowledge I should not have mentioned the conflict, however indirectly, in my edit of the page. I apologize for that, and after discussion with a moderator none of my subsequent posts can be remotely construed to mention the conflict in any way imaginable. Ironcladded (talk) 08:31, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I'm not sure where to note this because it's such a mess. I've indeffed Ironcladded for a combination of NOTHERE and disruption. The user is wasting many people's time, and a lesser sanction won't cut it. They obviously haven't learned anything from the pblock.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:02, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
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Definitely not. Removing 'informally known as the "two-week government"' (diff) is not vandalism. Is there a source for that term? At any rate, the term is very unlikely to satisfy WP:DUE so it should probably stay out. Johnuniq (talk) 09:19, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Naturally a new editor uses over-the-top language but my point was whether the prominent label was DUE. Obviously opponents and news-of-the-day commentators would mock someone for running a two-week government. The question is whether an encyclopedic article should elevate that to the first sentence. At any rate, removing it is not vandalism. Perhaps I should have spelled out my question: is there a secondary source showing that the joke is WP:DUE? Johnuniq (talk) 10:54, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
This feels much closer to a content dispute at any rate. Is there any behavioral evidence outside of this one specific article to justify an ANI report? ChaotıċEnby(t · c)12:04, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Why are you spreading this false information about the Prime Minister of my country, Poland? I won't allow one of the most important people in Poland to be insulted like that, that's why I deleted this strange information that the Prime Minister of Poland is a zombie and the fact that he was in power for 2 weeks is not encyclopedic style, so it should also be removed, besides NO ONE IN POLAND HE USES SUCH TERMS IN RELATION TO THE PRIME MINISTER OF POLAND OR OTHER MINISTERS, so these are propaganda and false content insulting Poland and Polish politics, and I deleted them for the good of Poland, not because of vandalism. So I think you will agree with me that this false and propaganda information about the Prime Minister and other ministers should be deleted, right? IgnacyPL (talk) 13:25, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
There are literally dozens of reliable sources using the phrases "two-week / 14-day government" and a reasonable number using "zombie government" as well, as even a perfunctory web search would have shown. The material is DUE and sourced. I have however removed it from the opening sentence, as it's not that defining and it's mentioned later in what is a short article anyway. Black Kite (talk)13:49, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Well... he's kinda no longer the Prime Minister of Poland so like. Continuing to call him that after he got voted out makes me believe you're very politically biased. Also you're wrong, plenty people in Poland call his cabinet that (I would know I am Polish). Just google "rząd dwutygodniowy" and see how many results you get.
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Hello, I've done a big sum of link edits etc but now Im not sure if im blocked or not but when I'm tryig to post a sentence in other pages other than mine, they all post as a blank space. Sorry for disruption, wont happen again. Tester85 (talk) 12:25, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
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I fully protected the article for a week since the last edit on the talk page was 2 days ago, and the last revert in the article was today. Ymblanter (talk) 15:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
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Consensus-less editing on Presidential elections by IP user
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I'be blocked for two weeks. Perhaps in that time Baraniscool will come to realize that they need to communicate with editors raising valid concerns regarding their edits.-- Ponyobons mots21:22, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
FlightTime You've also disrupted these related articles. I see you were also edit warring without communication on Fat Old Sun (an article I have been fixing up at the moment and improving sourcing), so you deserve at least an admonishment if not some other WP:BOOMERANG-based sanction. As I write, Machine Head (album) says it was released on 31 March 1972, but the infobox says it was released on 25 March 1972. Which is it? And this is supposed to be a good article. Can you please fix your errors? Ritchie333(talk)(cont)12:56, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
Note: @FlightTime has also been warned very recently about edit warring and being disruptive on other articles as discussed at El C's talk page. This appears to be, at the very least, a recent pattern. --ARoseWolf13:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
I think FlightTime has been almost but not been quite disruptive for some time, but I can't remember a (recent) time they had sanction-worthy behaviour, always stopping short of it. I do recall blocking them once years ago, but it was reversed as being draconian. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)18:54, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
@Ponyo and Ritchie333: as linked by ARoseWolf above (live, permalink), the brazen expectation on FlightTime's part that they are owed special treatment in an edit war, and their immediate attack against myself when I obviously declined this — that's concerning to me. Concern which I believe FlightTime needs to address. Since, if this is their modus operandi, it's a serious issue. El_C16:49, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Briefly: I'm unimpressed with FlightTime's response to this (including the utter failure to address any of my notes), but I'm writing in haste, so I'll leave this comment as placeholder and will return to this soon (probably a few days). In the meantime, non-admins need to stop trying to archive this report. Twice is enough. And though the first time was understandable, this latest (2nd) one most certainly is not. What are you doing, Mattdaviesfsic? Are you even reviewing the threads that you're WP:NAC-archiving? Anyway, I highlighted No, not resolved above, so hopefully, we can avoid a 3rd NAC. El_C09:21, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Sincere apologies if that was wrong in retrospect, but in fairness, the thread has been open for 9 days, and as I closed it the last comment was 2-3 days ago (which in my mind says "done and dusted"). Not only that but the first close/archive was not my doing - that was Softlavender - which I never saw in any case. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 09:52, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Maybe leave clerking to uninvolved admins if you are unable to correctly review threads at the admin noticeboard. There is no clock and if the thread remains open for a couple more weeks, so be it. That is not your call to make. El_C10:01, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion
After I removed Siouxsie Sioux's solo chronology from several Siouxsie and the Banshees and the Creatures album articles, Carliertwo(talk·contribs·deleted contribs·logs·filter log·block user·block log) reverted me, citing David Bowie/Tin Machine, Paul McCartney/Wings and "many other similar cases" as examples of album articles that grouped band chronologies with solo chronologies ([67][68][69]). I explained that those are isolated cases, that it is not common practice to list band chronologies alongside solo chronologies, and that there's no consensus for such ([70][71][72]). I remarked that the user had yet to provide a valid argument for including solo chronologies alongside band chronologies ([73][74]). I pointed out their unexplained reversions ([75][76]). I insisted that Carliertwo hadn't yet provided a single valid argument to revert my edits or restore the chronologies ([77][78][79]).
Nevertheless, Carliertwo reverted me three more times, repeating the same "argument" ([80][81]), neglecting to provide an edit summary ([82][83][84][85]), claiming that "domestic changes" (whatever that means) are unnecessary, and randomly bringing up that Siouxsie Sioux was the first headliner of some festival ([86][87][88]). The user's edits removed valid formatting-related edits I had made to those pages, which were properly explained in my edit summaries ([89][90][91]). The fourth time Carliertwo reverted me included a verbose edit summary that honestly came across as grasping at straws ([92][93]).
It should probably be noted that Carliertwo's unconstructive behavior (and gatekeeping of Siouxsie and the Banshees articles) has repeatedly been the subject of previous ANI threads, starting in 2017 ([94][95][96]). snapsnap(talk)03:02, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I was just about to submit a report myself. I'm going to add a previous discussion template at the top of this section for more context. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:21, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Thanks, S201050066 certainly doesn't know how to let go of the past or to control his emotions. At least he had some small amount of decency to wait until after Christmas and Boxing Day. Andykatib (talk) 00:26, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago2 comments1 person in discussion
Summerdays1(talk·contribs·deleted contribs·logs·filter log·block user·block log) has been inserting unnecessary, trivial, and deliberately unconstructive edits on pages out of bad-faith on pages by singling out ones I've contributed to and edit-warring them in. On 25 December and 26 December, they restored WP:BOOSTER material I removed then moved onto pages I either recently edited, substantially contributed to, or promoted to GA Status, starting with the judge Elizabeth Branch then John Hart Ely, Dumas Malone, Quintin Johnstone and Joshua Katz, and continued with my more recent pages (all listed on their user log). These pages are wholly unrelated to the pages they've previously edited except the fact that they are the ones I've substantially contributed to.
User:Summerdays1 has made it clear that his edits are meant to be obstructive and in bad-faith. After reaching out on my talk page, he left a message that he later covertly deleted and followed it up:
To begin, are you able to show me places where you either made mistakes on here or where you learned something? You give the impression that you know something or more than most. I doubt you even know as much as I do.Summerdays1 (talk) 23:35, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Apparently you won't listen to me so I'll find an admin. You are a "wrecking ball"; if you feel you need to crusade "one man style" to remove information from colleges and "justifying it" with the few same Wikipedia principles... I'll point out that you have been reverted numerous times going back more than a year. I agree some university pages have "fluff". You aren't trying to correct stuff. You're removing too much material and you don't even attempt to remedy or fix articles. Be pro-active and less reactive. You damage this site and it has to end.Summerdays1 (talk) 18:16, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Then they've reached out to editors to WP:CANVASS, and the messages show the same pattern. First to Rrsimone, then to admin Favonian:
Guardian H has edited articles for about a year in political thought, judicial, and college topics. This user has been heavily reverted at times (Boethius, etc.) and still does not seek consensus or adapt in any fashion. I saw you are bilingual, cool. I will guess you can understand these nuances, perspectives, and topics. As I told GH no one I know is pro-boosterism. At the same time left unchecked, GH will wreak holy havoc on any academic article they see.Summerdays1 (talk) 19:58, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
User:Summerdays1 has not gone out to try and reach any sort of consensus on the pages I contributed to nor even to try to build a consensus on the pages regarding higher education. I've reverted some of these edits; as of today, they have reverted them back. They aren't here to improve articles and no longer here to build an encyclopedia. GuardianH (talk) 21:17, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
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In this discussion, he has argued that this blog (Simple Flying) is more reliable than The Nikkei then defended that position after he editwarred to include his preferred blog over Nikkei as a citation.
Unfortunately, I believe their behavior has fallen far short of civil. Aside from accusing me of vandalism for removing citations to this unreliable source (repeatedly, see reliable sources noticeboard), the editor has spammed my page with warning templates even re-adding them when I removed them (admittedly, I responded with some warnings too after he posted rather rudely with the seeming belief that their misguided "warnings" using templates were proof that I were vandalizing). Vaguely threatening language like "we might have a problem" is unhelpful in my opinion, and their repeated rudeness led another editor to suggest they stop. I wasn't planning to do anything beyond attempting to avoid them going forward but another issue raised my interest.
A comment in the reliable sources noticeboard suggested that RedundancyAdvocate's behavior in this matter matched prior discussions (which I was not a part of) involving a user called SurferSquall.
Interestingly, when RedundancyAdvocate began editing, @Ckfasdf brought it up on their talk page. RedundancyAdvocate began most of its editing around the time that SurferSquall was blocked for one week for disruptive editing. They picked up right where SurferSquall left off, even redoing the same edit. [97][98]
I also note the similarities in their editing styles and they even both use their sandboxes in similar ways.
Ckfasdf says it may be an appropriate use of multiple accounts but it seems as though the new account is attempting to avoid scrutiny from the many warnings, blocks + discussions about the old account. I'm not sure but felt this user's behavior deserves wider attention. Avgeekamfot (talk) 21:36, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
This is absolutely not a valid use of an alternate account, should it be confirmed that they are the same person. Editing when blocked, evading scrutiny, and then situations like this: [99][100] (only one example of many, I suspect) is clearly abusive sockpuppetry - again, if it is confirmed that the editors are the same person. Can I suggest filing a WP:SPI and asking for a checkuser to review? Daniel (talk) 22:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
If you want help with opening the SPI case, I can help set it up with Twinkle. Just give me the links to anything relevant you find! ChaotıċEnby(t · c)11:12, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
I already went over this with Ckfasdf. I follow aviation topics on Wikipedia closely and edit accordingly. If I had the same judgement as another user, that's hardly justification for accusing me of being a sockpuppet. RedundancyAdvocate (talk) 03:11, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
My problem is not with you removing Simple Flying. That is the right thing to do, because it's not an entirely reliable source. My problem is that you removed Simple Flying links before giving a reason why. You eventually did give a reason why, and that's great, but you needed to do that before you removed all of those SF citations. I never said SF is more reliable than Nikkei- only that it seemed so when I quickly read through it. You also left two warns on my talk page that made zero sense given the chronological order of events in this situation. You ALSO claimed my warn to you was harassment, when it doesn't meet that definition at all. RedundancyAdvocate (talk) 03:06, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Checkuser note: RedundancyAdvocate and ForeignClimber5 (formerly SurferSquall) are unambiguously Confirmed to each other. firefly ( t · c ) 23:09, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Thanks Firefly, will block both indefinitely. Have also undeleted the U1 deletions of redirects from SurferSquall to ForeignClimber5, sockpuppeteers don't get to evade scruitiny like that. Daniel (talk) 23:10, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for resolving this. To confirm, I think I've seen comments by blocked sockpuppets removed before. Is there a guideline for that somewhere? Avgeekamfot (talk) 17:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Normally they get struck (like this) with a note saying "blocked sockpuppet" if they commented before they were blocked, and only reverted if they evade their subsequent block after being caught. Daniel (talk) 21:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
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Hello, I have a problem. An editor is attempting to press charges on me for block evasion when I never evaded any block. He has me confused with a different editor but refuses to listen. He tells everyone I am a troll and to not interact with me. If you look at my contributions you will see that this is not the case. I made a mistake in the past and did my time. I accept that I made a mistake and would like to move forward but no one will let me. Part of this project is AGF. I get it that disagreements happen but if you press charges every time someone looks at you cross eyed it is bad for the project and unfair to me because everyone looks at me like I am a criminal. 2600:1700:1250:6D80:A5E3:2339:6344:1CDA (talk) 23:00, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Hello IP editor. Since you are editing from a different IP address than from the one was blocked, User:Generalrelative is correct. You are evading your block, and any further attempts at block evasion will result in this ip address being blocked from editing as well. Cheers Relativity 23:28, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
For simplicity's sake, here is one diff where this IP user unambiguously identifies themselves as being both 2600:1012:B000:0:0:0:0:0/40 and 2600:1700:1250:6D80:0:0:0:0/64. There is plenty of other behavioral evidence available but this one edit alone is dispositive.
Here's how the conversation went down, on the subject of another recently blocked editor:
1) 2600:1700:1250:6D80:0:0:0:0/64 comments to say (in part) So I have no idea how you would think he is a single-purpose account.
2) JayBeeEll objects: Well over 300 of his < 500 edits concern the single subject.
3) 2600:1012:B000:0:0:0:0:0/40 responds: Right. And most of those edits were made to TALK. So as I said, not a single-purpose account.
There is no ambiguity there at all, given the use of the phrase "as I said". The lying by this IP just compounds their other disruption. I dislike going to ANI but it may be required in this case. Generalrelative (talk) 03:35, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Synopsis: I initially thought I could avoid a circus by bringing this issue to the most recently blocking admin, Widr, who had given the 2600:1012:B000:0:0:0:0:0/40 range a two-year block a couple weeks ago. I informed them on their talk page that this LTA is still editing as 2600:1700:1250:6D80:0:0:0:0/64 and also under a previously unsanctioned /64: 2603:8002:73F:1FCF:0:0:0:0/64 (note the previous range identifying as the author of posts by this final range in this discussion). The IP user then followed me to Widr's talk page and opened up a thread of their own at Teahouse. Relativity was kind enough to bring the case here after I suggested it may be necessary. There is plenty of evidence that these IP ranges are the same user, so if anyone has any questions about what's provided above or would like to see more, just let me know. Generalrelative (talk) 04:18, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Yeah, evading and then lying about it, despite having admitted to being the same user multiple times in the past. For the sake of convenience, here's another piece of dispositive evidence: In this comment, 2600:1700:1250:6D80:0:0:0:0/64 wrote "I attempted - severaltimes - to explain..." and each of those links leads to a diff by the 2600:1012:B000:0:0:0:0:0/40 range. Generalrelative (talk) 07:43, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
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User:Hmkelly, copyright violations, and promotional writing
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The user has repeatedlyadded material copied-and-pasted from the website of the school, despite multiplewarnings on the user's talk page that go back as far as 2020, after an IP removed material the user had inserted in this edit that was copied and pasted from the University website (here, for example) and promptly warned the user. The user has proceeded to ignore warnings and remove copyvio-revdel template from the page, even though the template explicitly states Please do not remove this template before an administrator has reviewed it.
Because the user has been repeatedly copy-pasting ad copy from the University website into the article without regard for copyright or compliance with Wikipedia's style guide, and because this was done in spite of multiple warnings, I ask that the user be (at minimum) partially blocked from the PolyU School of Hotel and Tourism Management article until they demonstrate better understanding of our policies and guidelines related to copyright, as well as our style guidance related to promotional tone. — Red-tailed hawk(nest)06:55, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
And we have the usual set of confusing-to-the-recipient responses to Special:Diff/1192033965. ☺ One person tells the accountholder that xe can provide the text. Another person tells that accountholder that we don't want the text at all. Uncle G (talk) 20:00, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
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Edit wars on the article Milan Tepić; distruption on a contentious topic
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For a while, there has been a disruptive edit war on the article Milan Tepić, since one user keeps removing sourced content.
The original text contained both sides, which was also well sourced,
[106] contained the sentence: »In Croatia he is perceived as a war criminal (...)« and that the person is viewed a »hero« by Serbia and Republika Srpska. No claims were made, just the two different opinions without any WP:POV. Two of the sources were Radio Free Europe and Balkan Insight, which are well written and WP:RELIABLE sources. To repeat: The statements are well sourced and do not make claims, just mention two different diplomatic views on one person.
Today, another WP:EW broke out, this time between user Silverije – and once again Kanikosen.
Silverije reverted to the version with sourced statements, Kanikosen multiple times reverted these edits with sources (see last few edits) and in the last revert, Kanikosen called the sourced content »vandalism«.
Although I won't comment on the content itself, people are allowed to remove warnings from their talk page to acknowledge they recieved them. Regarding what appears to be a content dispute, an admin on the relevant talk page already suggested dispute resolution for all editors involved, which appears to be a more productive option. In any case, Kanikosen should stop their behavior of edit warring. Extended or full protection could be an option, with any further changes being discussed on the talk page to achieve consensus first. ChaotıċEnby(t · c)14:23, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
It's fairly clear that the original version contained the views of both sides about Tepic, and Kanikosen is edit-warring to remove one of those sides - i.e. to whitewash the article. I have therefore blocked Kanikosen from editing the article. Black Kite (talk)18:24, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
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This IP Address has been making repeated disruptive edits to articles on wikipedia, including the removal of content on articles without adequate explanation and adding inappropriate external links to articles. Also, they are harassing and trolling other users who have warned them on their talk page. I think that their talk page access should also be revoked if they get blocked. Snices (talk) 00:07, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
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I've given EnderKutokuari a notice about edit warring, as they may not be aware of the 3RR rule. Normally this should be done before reporting someone to WP:ANEW or WP:ANI. – bradv19:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
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Latest comment: 11 months ago4 comments4 people in discussion
Content dispute. Discussion is to occur on the talk page of the article. "This page is for chronic and unmanageable behavioral problems." Daniel (talk) 22:42, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
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Super Dromaeosaurus This user is entering an editing battle on the Battle of Valea Albă page without replying to the discussion page. Since the existing source was deleted, I corrected it, but he continues to add the other editor's unsubstantiated claim without any source being provided by this editor. Keremmaarda (talk) 20:15, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Seems to me like a normal content issue. There were two reverts and discussion has already started at the talk page. No need to escalate the issue at this time. Isabelle Belato🏳🌈20:22, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
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This editor mostly edits Shia-Sunni related topics but they have a problematic history in this topic area. They apply a clear double standard on how they present Sunni groups in comparison to Shia groups. They minimise the actions of Sunni groups against Shia while making articles about Shia groups very negative. They often make large single edits with multiple changes throughout the article using vague, generic and unspecific edit summaries which are misleading or even untrue. This masks many problematic changes like removing sourced content. Most editors are not going to check every change in these large edits. They often misrepresent sources and their edits are fulll of non neutral language. I have highlighted numerous examples that illustrate this problematic pattern of editing:
On Shia-Sunni divide they removed mention of genocide against Shia using the edit summary of "Grammar" which is clearly deceptive insincere.
On Yemeni Civil War, in another very large edit, they stealthy changed the first line of a paragraph which stated that "The international community has condemned the Saudi Arabian-led bombing campaign" to "The international community has strongly condemned Houthi drone attacks,". This related edit on Yemen removed a sentence from the lead and inserted a ridiculous amount of weasel words and also scare quotes to further minimise accusations against the Saudi government.
On Persecution of Christians, they removed the only mention of genocide by ISIS using a dubious edit summary.
On Al-Qaeda in Iraq, they added (alleged) next to Anti-Shi'ism with no explanation. They have also systematically removed Al-Qaeda's responsibility for bombings against Shia. For example on List of bombings during the Iraq War.
On September 11 attacks, they have made multiple problematic edits. In one particularly egregious edit, they absurdly called the attacks a military attack instead of a terrorist attack using another insincere edit summary of "Grammar". Similarly on Letter to America, they removed the only mention of 9/11 and its description as a terrorist attack with an ironic edit summary of "Removed Repetition". Another edit with a misleading edit summary of "Quote box alignment" misrepresents the cited source to change the language to describe Bin Laden's views of non-Muslims in Arabia as being correct according to Islam.
On Al-Qaeda, they made multiple changes throughout the article in one edit using a typical unspecific edit summary. They removed Islamic extremism and Takfirism from ideology, both well sourced, while adding Sunni–Shia alliance and Muslim unity. This edit also removed the sourced statement that "As Salafist jihadists, members of Al-Qaeda believe that killing non-combatants is religiously sanctioned." A subsequent edit removed all remaining mentions of Al-Qaeda's Takfir. This is in striking contrast to their editing on Hezbollah and Takfir. 217.40.96.193 (talk) 01:17, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
While the editor might be biased and their use of edit summaries should be improved, in some of these diffs what is being removed is poorly sourced or unsourced content. In the Human rights in Syria diff, the countent added to the article looks mostly well sourced to a Routledge book. (t · c) buidhe01:22, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
I linked the Human rights in Syria diff more so to iillustrate the contrast in their edits towards Shia groups compared to Sunni groups like Al-Qaeda. In the linked edit on Al-Qaeda they removed multiple pieces of well sourced content that was negative to the group. 217.40.96.193 (talk) 01:42, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
I edit on a wide range of topics. LoL
You've simply compiled a personal collection of a lot of my edits on a particular topic you care about, personally analysed my edit history, (without checking the references and my edit summaries) and have made a lot of allegations which are not backed up by reliable sources.
It looks more like you are the one behaving like a single-purpose IP obsessed with somebody?
You have done absolutely nothing other than linking some of my edits (which are all publicly accessible in my editing history) which you personally find to be problematic.
Since I dont have the time to expose the obvious shallowness of each and every claim compiled in your list, I am simply going to dismantle your first allegation alone.
Regarding this edit, I improved the grammar of the contents and clearly wrote in edit summary "Grammar". Also, there are no references claiming that the Islamic State perpetrated a "genocide against Shias". Infact the page itself is titled "Persecution of Shias by the Islamic State". I simply made that correction. "Value-laden labels... may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution." MOS:LABEL
I have checked the references and your edit summaries and that's exactly why I reported you. What reliable academic sources am I supposed to provide when I am specifically reporting YOU for removing well sourced content and misrepresenting sources and have linked and explained numerous examples of you doing this. You have used dubious edit summaries like "Grammar" on other occasions to remove information critical of Sunni extremist groups. Can you also dismantle my other allegation where you used "Grammar" regarding this edit to September 11 attacks? Was your change backed up by reliable academic sources? Is calling 911 the deadliest terrorist attack bad grammar or is it original research? No reliable academic sources call it the "largest military strike by a non-state organization in contemporary history". Fortunately this blatantly egregious edit was quickly reverted.217.40.96.193 (talk) 11:07, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
If you are claiming that I allegedly removed "well sourced content" or that I "misrepresented sources" (I didnt), it is you who have to provide the inline citations to insert the content. Onus is on the editors who want to back up their claims.
"The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." WP:ONUS
You havent provided any inline citations to back-up your allegations. So far, you've only resorted to dontlikeit-style of argumentations throughout this entire conversation. The entire premise of your complaint is your accusation of bias against me. Also, your personal view of me as biased doesnt mean you can censor my edits. It doesnt mean anything, infact.
"The NPOV policy does forbid the inclusion of editorial bias, but does not forbid properly sourced bias."WP:POVDELETION
You accuse me of being biased, but your recent comments and edit summaries very explicitly demonstrate your biases and POV-pushing, if anything.
As for this edit on the "September 11 attacks" page, I changed the wording from "deadliest terrorist act in human history" to "largest military strike by a non-state organization in contemporary history".
I specified the reason for this minor edit in the edit summary. "Grammar". I think my wording is more grammatically precise and has an impartial tone in that particular sentence, which describes these attacks as the "deadliest" amongst a certain category of attacks. The attacks have been described as terrorist attacks throughout the page, so I think the new term "largest military strike by a non-state organization in contemporary history" is more appropriate in that context. MOS:TERROR
Either way, another editor soon reverted that change after that user disagreed with my view. The content I inserted has been erased. Then why are you making a big fuss about that edit? Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 15:22, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
"I specified the reason for this minor edit in the edit summary. "Grammar". I think my wording is more grammatically precise and has an impartial tone in that particular sentence, which describes these attacks as the "deadliest" amongst a certain category of attacks. The attacks have been described as terrorist attacks throughout the page, so I think the new term "largest military strike by a non-state organization in contemporary history" is more appropriate in that context. MOS:TERROR.
Shadowwarrior, if that is in fact how you view that situation, I'm afraid that your explanation raises more substantail concerns than did the IP's reference to the edit itself, at least for me. The distinction between those two differing modes of description is clearly more factual than it is anything that can reasonably said to be "grammatical", and the description you inserted was clearly not appropriate without a proper citation. Nothing in MOS:TERROR contradicts WP:V or WP:NPOV#WEIGHT (and even should they conflict, the latter, being pillar policies, could not be overriden by the former, being a piece of a style guidance). Countless sources clearly support the "deadliest terror attack" language, whereas, unless I am missing something, you have presented no source for your "military strike" language. That is, to put it mildly, more a matter of semantics than syntax, and you would have done better here to own up to the inadequate edit summary. Because at present it is clear that this is at a minimum an issue of insufficient care and/or lack of accurate policy language, but it also would not be unreasonable to suspect an effort at outright obfuscation here. So it doesn't help us to assume the more innocent explanation when you deny that this was a misleading/inaccurate edit summary at the least: it clearly is.
I haven't looked at all of the other edits presented here so far, but the first one I chose to investigate also shows issues with proper framing: the matter of changing the meaning of what the international community supposedly supports in the Yemeni civil war article. Now, to your credit, you do have some sources on this one. But rather than use an additive approach and trying to demonstrate that different elements of the international community and international institutions had condemned different parties to the warfare at various times, you instead chose to change the entire meaning of an existing statement, presumptively representing previous editorial consensus, to virtually the diametric opposite of what it previously said (at least in terms of the "side" that the international community holds most responsible for the conflict), thus masking what amounts to a deletion of sourced content (complete with the source itself), simultaneous with your own addition. And this too was accompanied by an edit summary of dubious accuracy, as it refers only to supplying info, and not at all to any changes or removals of statments from the previous status quo. Now, as an uninvolved party who is a big advocate for a healthy application of AGF, I am trying to see these attempted changes in the best possible light, but I must tell you that it's hard not to feel the IP has identified some real issues here, because the choice to replace rather than compliment the existing coverage does suggest a bias (willful or implicit) in how you are approaching some edits, and the way you describe these edits suggests either an effort to obscure them or (hopefully) just a lack of an appropriate level of care for properly labeling them. Either way, things need to change in your approach. SnowRise let's rap16:19, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
On the contrary, this seems like a very good edit. The previous statement, "The international community has condemned the Saudi Arabian-led bombing campaign, which has included widespread bombing of civilian areas inside the Houthi-controlled western part of Yemen." was cited only to a Huffington Post blog which says "Contributors control their own work and posted freely to our site." That's not a reliable source. In contrast, @Shadowwarrior8's version is sourced to news coverage of a UN Security Council resolution. The edit summary included the point "refs" which I think covers this. 2600:1702:E80:1880:3802:4E7A:578A:412E (talk) 03:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
@Snow Rise"Countless sources clearly support the "deadliest terror attack" language"
I am not disputing that, Snow Rise. Numerous academic sources do support "deadliest terror attack" language. What I meant here was that, "deadliest terror attack" and "largest military strike by a non-state organization in contemporary history" are not mutually exclusive (as you well know). In that particular sentence in the lede, describing it as something "largest" within a category of attacks launched by a non-state organization may have been appropriate in the lede, considering the fact that it is already well-acknowledged as a terrorist attack throughout the article. So in that context I felt such a description may have been appropriate to improve the lede.
That edit got quickly removed. And upon further investigating sources, I couldnt find my wording anywhere. So I left it. What I'm trying to say here is that, there is nothing unusual about my edit, when you look in that context. So, there is no point in making a big fuss about this edit.
Regarding the issue you raised related to the "Yemeni civil war" page, this was my edit a few months ago.
Snow Rise: "Now, to your credit, you do have some sources on this one. But rather than use an additive approach and trying to demonstrate that different elements of the international community and international institutions had condemned different parties to the warfare at various times, you instead chose to change the entire meaning of an existing statement"
Yeah, there was a mistake in my editing, (not sourcing), which lead to a bias. It was a long edit, as can be seen from the contents that were inserted in that edit.
But I later noticed this bias and improved that wording in this edit, making it more impartial.
The IP was only referring to an older edit which I personally corrected later on. Meanwhile, the IP is explicitly asserting in his latest edit summaries that he edits because he personally advocates for something (here, here). I mean, this is the individual who is accusing me of bias. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 18:10, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Providing some variance in descriptions may be a reasonable principle of elegant writing for unrestrcited prose, but it is not a sufficient reason on this project to ignore WP:V; "deadliest terrorist attack" and "largest military strike by a non-state organization" are nowhere near the same description, and you simply should not have been trying to force the latter into the place of the former without a source supporting this novel description of your own creation (WP:OR), especially considering the WP:CTOP context. The fact that the two descriptions are not factually mutually exclusive is completely irrelevant to the very justifiable concern the IP is raising in respect to this edit: you still have to be able to source your novel wording. And quite the opposite of the WP:LEAD being the best place to experiment with the wording, it actually adds an extra layer of inappropriateness, because the lead is meant to accurately summarize and reflect the content in the rest of the article. All of which is to say that it is a good thing that you dropped the matter after being reverted and moved on. Honestly, I would just stick with that in terms of defending your approach on this issue, because your attempt to minimize/explain away the edit itself is not really supported by policy or good editorial practice.
"Yeah, there was a mistake in my editing, (not sourcing), which lead to a bias. It was a long edit, as can be seen from the contents that were inserted in that edit.
But I later noticed this bias and improved that wording in this edit, making it more impartial."
Ok, but unless I am missing something, the edit you are describing as ameliorative doesn't at all address the issue that you deleted a sourced statement (and the source itself) from the status quo version of a CTOP article, then added a statement supporting an entirely different view, and didn't reflect any of this in your edit summary. The fact that you later massaged other content in the article to be more neutral, to your eye, doesn't eliminate any of those concerns. Again, it would be more helpful to hear you acknowledge the issue with removing content that easily could have stayed when you added your own, rather than replacing a very specific cited fact in a fashion that looks calculated the completely flip the perspective presented and hide deletion of sourced material.
"The IP was only referring to an older edit which I personally corrected later on. Meanwhile, the IP is explicitly asserting in his latest edit summaries that he edits because he personally advocates for something ([here], [here])"
The only thing I see the IP advocating for in those two edit summaries is WP:WEIGHT:
"Saudi bombing needs first mention. It has received way more coverage than Houthi drone strikes.";
"The Saudi bombing has killed significantly more people and received far more public condemnation than Houthi drone attacks."
Now you may disagree with their assessment and are free to argue the relevant strength of condemnation by various elements of the international community for the actions of the various parties connected to the conflict, but I don't see where the IP has declared an an intention to contribute in a fashion contrary NPOV or any other policy. And even if they had, it wouldn't necessarily obviate you of the need to recognize and address any of your own biases or any lack of compliance with policy and transparency, at least some of which they have been justified in raising here. I've only checked into three of the articles mentioned above, but in each of those cases, I am finding their concerns at least somewhat justified, and I'm a little worried that you are being somewhat WP:IDHT about hearing what those issues are. I think this discussion could very easily result in nothing more than a recommendation to be more careful in your edits and forthright in your edit summaries, but that's less likely to be the outcome if you don't recognize the significance of some of the issues discussed above. SnowRise let's rap01:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
SnowRise: "unless I am missing something,... the issue that you deleted a sourced statement"
Yes, I'm well are of that; the specifics of that edit have already been discussed in detail immediately above. But the very specific issue here is that you think that the approach you employed here should ameliorate concerns. On the contrary, it is especially problematic. It would be a dubious course of action to merely delete a longstanding, sourced statement in the status quo version of a CTOP article, along with the source itself, without giving a compelling policy reason as to the removal. But what you did instead was delete part of the statement in question (along with the source supporting the general thrust of the sentence as it existed), then replace it with content that changed the meaning of the altered sentence to something that is very close to the diametric opposite of what it said before--and then source that new statement. So, yes, in every functional sense, and every way that matters under policy, you did in fact delete a sourced statement without explanation. It's just that you simultaneously replaced it with a grammatically similar statement located in the exact same place in the article...that just happens to now say the exact opposite of the statement you effectively removed. And then you reflected none of this in the slightest in your edit summary that reads "Info, refs, Para, Spacing, Links" and says nothing about deleting or altering existing sourced content. And all of this despite the fact that nothing stopped you from simply adding the new perspectives/sources in addition to the existing ones. All of that would be a dubious course of action on any article, let alone a CTOP-designated article. And the fact that this feedback keeps leading to a circular discussion wherein you don't acknowledge why any of that is problematic is increasingly causing me to worry about whether this switch-a-roo approach was intentionally employed or if you just are not hearing why such an approach is an issue, and is drawing attention--either of which options is a concern. SnowRise let's rap00:15, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
While I agree with SnowRise on the merits of their commentary, I just popped on to review this thread out of interest, and it seems like a content, not a behavioral dispute. It's also very hard to figure out what the behavioral allegations are here. It seems that Shadowwarrior is changing the wording in a way that the MOS recommends to do, to water stuff down, which is a valid editorial position on some of these things, and the IP doesn't agree. Is there anything red flaggy on the behavioral side from anyone, or should this conversation move to the article or maybe the NPOV noticeboard? It's not an adminnable issue, I don't think, correct me if I'm wrong anyone. Andre🚐02:01, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
additionally, the IP never attempted to discuss concerns in my talk page and opted to directly insert some allegations here (with a misleading sub-heading), which is not the procedure.
"Before posting a grievance about a user please consider discussing the issue on the user's talk page."WP:DRR/ANI
I have provided multiple examples above and explained them above but I will explain a couple examples further. One example of you removing well sourced content is on Al-Qaeda. Among the very large edit numerous pieces of well sourced content were deleted. Every mention of Takfirism was deleted in this edit and a subsequent edit. This is well sourced so why remove it among the large edit with an unspecific edit summary? For this other edit to the September 11 attacks, the cited source on the third page says: "In his view, the Prophet Muhammad had banned the permanent presence of infidels in Arabia". The original text stated that "Bin Laden interpreted Muhammad as having banned the "permanent presence of infidels in Arabia"." which was changed with an edit summary of "Quote box alignment" to "As an adherent of Islam, bin Laden believed that non-Muslims are forbidden from having a permanent presence in the Arabian Peninsula." An obvious misrepresenting of the source. 217.40.96.193 (talk) 08:31, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Right, what is the rationale to remove this:
According to a number of sources, a "wave of revulsion" has been expressed against Al-Qaeda and its affiliates by "religious scholars, former fighters and militants" who are alarmed by Al-Qaeda's takfir and its killing of Muslims in Muslim countries, especially in Iraq.[1]
As can be seen in that edit, I simply paraphrased the contents in the same sources with proper attribution and a bit more detail.
I elucidated that content into two sentences:
1st: "According to CNN journalists Peter Bergen and Paul Cruickshank, a number of "religious scholars, former fighters and militants" who previously supported Islamic State of Iraq (ISI) had turned against the Al-Qaeda-supported Iraqi insurgency in 2008; due to ISI's indiscriminate attacks against civilians while targeting US-led coalition forces."
2nd: "American military analyst Bruce Reidel wrote in 2008 that "a wave of revulsion" arose against ISI, which enabled US-allied Sons of Iraq faction to turn various tribal leaders in the Anbar region against the Iraqi insurgency. In response, Bin Laden and Zawahiri issued public statements urging Muslims to rally behind ISI leadership and support the armed struggle against American forces."
Again, I can also back these up with inline citations from these sources, but that would make this comment lengthier and would obscure from the crux of the issue here.
The IP has not initiated any normal proceedings of dispute resolution with me in my talk page or in the talk pages of the relevant pages. Instead, the IP opted to bludgeon in the ANI notice board without any due procedure. The IP accused me of various things, after bombarding a compilation of numerous edits the IP didnt like. IP made several POV commentaries of these edits, without even attempting to communicate to me beforehand or even initiating discussion in the talk pages of the relevant pages. Forget about assuming good faith, how is this behaviour even acceptable? And that too in the noticeboard?
Personally, I was beginning a full-break from editing, since I have a lot of important duties & deadlines coming up in real life. I am busy right now. Then on 24th December, I got suddenly notified of a bludgeon of smears in the noticeboard, out of literally nowhere, by some random newly-popped up IP account who never communicated with me before or ever commented in any talk page! And I have been here writing essays against a bombardment of accusations by some random single-purpose IP who doesnt like my edits.
Editors are human beings. If I had an issue with an edit, I'd attempt to resolve disputes by initiating discussions in the talk page. The question here is, can anon IPs collect their personal compilation of edits of other users, suddenly bombard various accusations into the admin noticeboard without any previous discussion, and then attempt to smear other editors in a negative way? Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 17:07, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
I do understand your objection that the OP did not try to broach these concerns with you prior to the filing here. That's a reasonable source of frustration for you, imo. And I'm sure many of us here can relate to being dragged into an on-project dispute just when other, more pressing responsibilities are minimizing our ability to engage. You have my sympathies about that, let me tell you. That said, having only looked into a subset of the issues the OP opened this thread with (or that have been otherwise discussed above so far), there are, beyond doubt, some real issues in your approach to these topics, including some misapplications of pillar policies. What you regard as fairplay "paraphrasing" of a source (or reasonable and accurate re-wording of existing consensus language) are real issues in places, while many of your edit summaries seems to vary from problematic to blatantly misleading. SnowRise let's rap00:40, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago5 comments5 people in discussion
IP personal attack at Talk:Supreme Court of Israel#Criticism of Court in CTopics area (Israeli-Palestinian conflict). I think this talk post shows this editor isn't attempting a NPOV and shouldn't be editing in this area. I checked in the mirror this morning and I can confirm I am not an "Israeli IDF wikipedia farm", just a grumpy old man in Los Angeles. // Timothy :: talk22:51, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
If 'not attempting a NPOV' with regards to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was sufficient grounds to exclude people from commenting on such topics, there would be very few editors available. As comments go, I'd say it was pretty tame. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:03, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
That is in fact sufficient grounds to exclude someone from such a topic... But it doesn't describe the vast majority of people who comment on AIPAC related topics (the POV warriors are a relatively small minority of editors after all). Surely you are being hyperbolic or sarcastic? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:14, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Unfortunately he's not entirely; without naming names, in my limited experience in the I-P topic area a large percentage of frequent/active editors treat whatever issue is at hand with a specific POV in mind that they prefer to have the article confirm. TheKip07:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
I have given them an ARBPIA welcome template and CTOP notice. If they continue to violate ECR they'll be blocked. In the future you don't have to respond, you can just revert their edit noting that it's an ECR violation, unless it is an edit request that isn't asking someone to revert an EC editor's edit. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:09, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
An IP user from Hulen, Kentucky, is posting talk page comments that don't make any sense at talk pages and user talk pages. All of the comments end with emojis, and many of them are abusive toward random users.
I've rangeblocked a handful of /64s for now, as really these have been confined to a single/couple of connections — a /40 would be much too wide. — TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 19:07, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
It is possible that earlier talk-namespace edits need to be inspected as well; they made similar comments like this one in the past. It's a bit hard to tell which edits are from the troll. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:36, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Controversial edits by IP 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:0:0:0:0/64
Latest comment: 11 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion
See the last report here: [107] (section "Block evasion of Nguyentrongphu by using 2600:6C44:117C:0:0:0:0:0/46"). 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:0:0:0:0/64 (talk·contribs) is a narrower IP range, which I'm pretty sure is Nguyentrongphu, according to WP:DUCK:
Latest comment: 11 months ago7 comments6 people in discussion
User:Willbb234 who has been blocked twice for edit warring this year is once again edit warring. I left a warning on his talk page to go to the articles talk page, and he went straight to the Joseph James DeAngelo talk page to make a homophobic slur at me. which is unacceptable. Just straight up told me (Redacted)Fruitloop11 (talk) 02:34, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
I've blocked Willbb234 for two weeks for the personal attack. Any administrator is free to increase or decrease the length of the block without consulting with me.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:43, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
The redacted remark constitutes sexual harassment, even if not meant literally. Willbb's most recent prior block was over an article I was editing in the same time period, so I'll err on the side of caution and call myself involved, but I would support another administrator extending the block to indefinite. This is the sort of statement that demands an immediate halt to someone's editing until they can apologize and make a credible commitment to it never happening again. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 03:24, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
I agree. That kind of behaviour has no place on Wikipedia. I would indef them myself, but I'm also potentially involved here so I'll leave it to someone else. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 03:37, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
I've upgraded the block to indefinite after a thoroughly insufficient response to being told that sexual harassment is not a joke. – bradv03:50, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Another casual comment from a somewhat-involved user, but Willbb234 has, as I'm sure you've all noticed, a long and storied history of considering any block or even criticism of their edits as a personal slight and accusing those who do it of being personally against them. Combined with an apparent mentality that they can revert others at will (repeatedly edit warring without discussing despite however many warnings and blocks) but that anyone reverting them is, again, committing a personal slight, I wonder if further steps should be taken than just another block? Some restrictions for when they return to editing or something? Kingsif (talk) 04:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
I have half a mind to block this 734-edit user (at time of writing) as a clear sockpuppet (though I don't know who they could be) per the duck test and I may well be too involved at this point. Here's a summary of this user's history per their edit count statistics and their contributions:
In 2017, they created their account and made their first edits. They made a couple of edits (since deleted) in 2018 to Talk:Tiger versus lion and one in 2019, but all their other edits were made in 2023.
On 23 December 2023, they made twoproposals to remove significant content at Talk:Valediction and Talk:Valediction. Fair enough, but they only waited less than a day and a half (during a holiday period in many parts of the world!), showing extreme disrespect towards readers and the people who made the content.
Just yesterday (my time), they re-created the template "Copy to Wiktionary" which had been deleted in 2021 per a TFD (which I deleted as a re-creation) and tried to implement it at substantial articles like Hello. Their grand pronouncements about their opinions on the scope of Wikipedia in the links above and in this one are highly uncharacteristic of a new user.
I don't know whether there is anything specifically fishy going on here but I was not best pleased when they reinstated an anonymous troll edit here which I had removed. What I see here is a possible example of a pattern that is becoming worryingly common: An account is registered several years ago and makes a few uncontroversial edits before the drifting away. It becomes active again several years later and starts making a lot of bold edits to articles on controversial topics. This can indicate people who have been radicalised in the intervening period but I also wonder whether some older inactive accounts are being compromised and taken over by bad actors. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case here but maybe the possibility is enough to justify a checkuser, particularly if there are any other indications of sockpuppetry? DanielRigal (talk) 19:48, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
I’m not entirely sure what I may have done that indicates to you that I may be a sockpuppet.
I have worked hard to try to ensure all my edits have followed WP policies to the letter. I’m somewhat flattered that I’ve apparently been so successful as to pass for a more experienced editor. However, I would note that errors I’ve made have been pointed out before, as in your own observation.
The straightforward answer to the large uptick in my editing is that I finished a large project earlier this year. I found myself with some free time and edited the page Red Scare - and became hooked.
To the content objections you have both raised, which I don’t believe are directly relevant to the sock puppet accusation:
1. Regarding the removed content at Valediction and Salutation, large parts of both pages were just translations into other languages. This seemed like a legacy issue from the 2000s. Applying WP:NOTDICTIONARY, I didn’t think the removals would be controversial.
2. Having edited those pages, I came across Hello, Ciao, and several other pages. Again, per WP:NOTDICTIONARY, it seemed to me that these pages did not belong on Wikipedia. I have never done an AfD before, and while I was reading Wikipedia:Guide to deletion, I came across the term 'Transwiki', and followed that to the Transwiki guides. It seemed like transferring some of the content across to Wiktionary would be more respectful of the work people had clearly put into these pages than deleting them outright.
I had no idea that the Wiktionary template had previously been deleted, and thought it was merely missing. So, I created it, and placed it at the top of both pages.
3. I maintain it is poor form to remove the comments of a person with whom you are disagreeing on a talk page. I do not believe that makes me 'radicalised' as may be inferred from Daniel's comment.
@Riposte97: Thanks for your response. One of the most important policies on Wikipedia is actually ignore all rules; it is a tool that makes Wikipedia work more flexibly when necessary (especially in unusual circumstances, which often arise with controversial articles). Policies are not cudgels to beat people with, especially in the case of more experienced editors. Re the idea that Wikipedia is not a dictionary, there is actually a dedicated page devoted to the concept, which contains a section about words or phrases as article subjects, which applies to the Hello and Ciao articles. Extreme black-and-white application of policy/guideline text is highly disruptive and will eventually get you blocked.
Also, I tried following your link trail about transwikiing above and I can't figure out how you went from there to thinking that Wikipedia needed a "Copy to Wiktionary" template. Could you possibly outline your thought process in more detail? Graham87 (talk) 04:52, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
@Graham87 - At Wikipedia:Guide to Deletion, under the 'Shorthands' heading, is an entry entitled 'Transwiki'. A link in that paragraph takes one here. I skimmed the linked help page. It then occurred to me that I ought to tag the pages which I intended to transwiki, rather than simply go ahead immediately. I checked to see if a tag existed for an intention to transwiki to Wiktionary. Tag templates did exist for that purpose referencing Wikiquote, Commons, etc, but not Wiktionary. So, I created the template myself.
The transwiki process is almost dead. There may be a use for it once in a blue moon, but when that does happen it's very unlikely to be on a high-visibility word-as-word article like Hello. Beyond that, Graham is right about overzealous application of WP:NOT's section names without considering the sections' nuanced contents. In fact, reading through the "Wikipedia is not..." headings, I don't see a single one that is categorically true. "Not a soapbox" comes closest if you only count content pages, but it still allows a partial exception in userspace and projectspace. Everything else, from "not a dictionary" to "not a social network" to "not censored", is only a broad statement of principles, not a universal rule, and WP:NOT doesn't pretend otherwise, listing all sorts of caveats and exceptions. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 06:42, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Indeed. @Riposte97:, your reply makes a bit more sense; the short answer to your question about being satisfied that you're not a sock is ... I don't know. I wouldn't feel comfortable taking administrative action on you at this point, at any rate. Graham87 (talk) 07:25, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago32 comments16 people in discussion
Can someone please address Tagishsimon’s ongoing incivility, biting, and failure to assume good faith towards people asking questions at the teahouse? I notice looking through his talk page that he has never once responded to a concern raised there regarding his conduct. I hope I’m reporting this properly, and I think there is a policy requiring me to notify Tagishsimon, which I’ll do but I don’t know the right template (hopefully someone can fix it for me). Cynidens (talk) 23:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Forgive me, but I don't understand how that's relevant to the diffs I've sent. I of course completely agree with WP:DENY, but the diffs I've presented show that quite a few people have expressed concern about his bitey conduct towards people at the Teahouse or at AfC. No one expects him to respond to the obviously NOTHERE & troll messages, but there are plenty of good-faith editors, or at least people who we ought to assume good faith of, in those links. I'm sorry if this is causing trouble or wasting time or anything; I've never made a comment at ANI before (thankfully). I'm just trying to address Mattdaviesfsic's request for diffs, and I don't wish to be involved further. sawyer * he/they * talk01:59, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
First, I want to keep in mind I'm relatively new and certainly imperfect in comparable ways, and I don't want to dissuade Tagishsimon; I think they are very good in their work in the Teahouse overall.
That said, having seen patterns represented by the above examples, it often feels like they do not particularly enjoy volunteering at the Teahouse. If they have tone problems that need to be addressed—I don't feel comfortable saying whether they do—they are of a sort where the line is never crossed in any given thread, but perhaps it is often straddled when one zooms out. Sometimes, it may seem hostile or bite-y from the perspective of a total newcomer. Remsense留07:45, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
@Remsense: may seem hostile or bite-y from the perspective of a total newcomer - well it clearly seems hostile and bite-y from the perspective of experienced editors too. Also, see my comment below. Deltaspace42 (talk • contribs) 12:07, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
(I've tried to phrase my specific thoughts in as unassuming a way as possible, I don't mean for them to detract from anything anyone else has to say.) Remsense留12:11, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
That message seems completely appropriate; your post was indeed pointless. After you discovered your idea didn't work, you had nothing useful to contribute; yet you did so anyhow. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 13:47, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Well, to be fair, TS's answer didn't provide a solution, either. I've often wished people at Teahouse wouldn't answer questions they can't provide an actual solution for, as other hosts may assume they can skip over that question because they see it's received responses and assume its been resolved. Valereee (talk) 14:44, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
@Bbb23, can you clarify that by DENY you mean "this clearly is a troll making baseless complaints"? Because I could absolutely see someone, especially someone new, feel reluctant to complain here because of possible repercussions. The base problem seems to have some validity, to me, and @Tagishsimon appears to be ignoring this. Am I missing something? Valereee (talk) 13:57, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Not precisely. I was accusing the OP of being a troll/sock whose first and only real edit (their second edit was to notify Tagishsimon) was to post a complaint at ANI about an editor with no diffs and yet wikilinking policies and guidelines. My assumption is they have something against Tagishsimon but can't do anything about it because they are already blocked. I have no comment about the complaints of others about Tagishsimon's conduct at the Teahouse, but the OP has achieved their purpose.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:06, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
hey i actually kinda have a horse in this gba barbie game
from what i've seen, i don't think tagishsimon's big issue in the teahouse is outright unhelpfulness, but a lack of civility and a tendency of telling people that they've done wrong in one message, and only telling them what they've done wrong later on, if ever
except in a question i asked about changing my signature that is in archive 1206, but i can't get that archive to load for some reason, but tagishsimon's answer was "the colors are bad, change it", which while true (i checked, the contrast was kinda not good), was admittedly really unhelpful as that was already step 2 of fixing the sig, but i'm not a helpful asker myself, so i won't really hold it against them
that aside, i think tagishsimon would be fine if they answered questions right away and a bit more bluntly, and went to their talk page sometimes
I've always taken the approach that the Teahouse should be a place where, as annoying as you may think a question is, a host or editor should always respond in a knowledgeable and kind way. It has been an honor to be a host at the Teahouse though I haven't been there as much lately. It's very important to keep that page free of bite-y and snide comments. New and inexperienced editors are always looking for help and we advertise the Teahouse as a place to go to receive advice in a relaxed environment where hosts and good faith editors are ready to help them. Regardless of what happens with this I would encourage anyone responding at the Teahouse and reading my words to remember that every user is a human being and most think they are doing what's right (good faith). If you are feeling like you can't respond with knowledge and kindness then take a break and let someone else respond. It's okay to not respond. --ARoseWolf13:21, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
I agree with ARoseWolf here. Teahouse responses should be both informative and kind. Sometimes editors burn out dealing with similar stripes of ignorance over and over (this happened to a very long-term and respected ex-admin not too long ago). This is the converse of the related problem of relatively new editors giving inaccurate advice to extremely new editors, which also manifests at the Teahouse.Tagishsimon's tone isn't something I'd start an ANI about, but I have considered on multiple occasions making a request on their usertalk to practice a little more kindness. Folly Mox (talk) 14:01, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
The problem seems to be that multiple users have done that, and been ignored.
Teahouse can become very frustrating because those working there respond to the same things over and over again. But for the people coming in there to ask that same tedious question you've answered 1000 times, it's not their 1000th time asking it. When you start to feel like you can't answer that same tedious question one more time without BITING, when multiple people have raised the same concern, it's time to take a break from hosting. Valereee (talk) 14:30, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
As someone who has a horse in this race, i had a draft decline today by him/her/they for "bullshit-citing" which is wholy unusefull for me and i disagree as the citations are accurate for the draft in my persepective. I beleive he/she/it might have declined it souly on the basis there are alot of citaitons. TagKnife (talk) 13:45, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
The manner Tagishimon did so is in no way appropriate. Being right isn't a license to say something like This seems to be a full-on WP:SYNTHspam article for someone's new code, replete with huge roster of bullshit-baffles-brains cites.Catalk to me!14:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Yes, this comment was really unhelpful for me, and I had a discussion with deadspace who helped me understand what changes were needed and the issue with the citations.
Along with that Tagishsimon dropped by a left and another unhelpful comment in the Teahouse where me and deadspace discussed said topic. His comments carry an unhelpful nature and a belittling attitude. TagKnife (talk) 15:25, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
I admit it: I am ok with people being slightly rude to people who have as their sole contributions to Wikipedia self-promotional cryptospam. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
You're entitled to your tastes, but we're not concerned with your tastes. The (class of) behavior still contravenes site guidelines. Remsense留15:43, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
It is better to be honest. Sometimes the 'teahouse style' of supportive communication fails because the new editor comes away with the impression that they can make a few small changes and get their improper article approved. That seems to be what TagKnife has just said above. It is more kind to be clear and get them to stop wasting their time on what will almost certainly be a fruitless endeavor. MrOllie (talk) 16:46, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
This is getting off-topic, so I won't belabor the question, but—I suppose I don't understand at all the point that's being made here. I wish this sounded less glib, but if you don't think the Teahouse approach is worthwhile, then isn't the correct position "don't volunteer at the Teahouse"? It's not like there's some larger issue that's radiating from it. Not liking the way the Teahouse is meant to handle new users isn't an excuse to try to "tough love" newcomers within. If that's not the point, then it's a point that's irrelevant for this discussion. Remsense留17:07, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
@MrOllie: I believe it is always possible to be both honest and polite at the same time, without resorting to more aggressive tone. "...almost certainly be a fruitless endeavor" - you never know, you can't say that before you thoroughly search for the sources yourself and come to the conclusion that the subject is not notable and it would be a waste of time to try and create an article about the subject. And even if you know that there are not enough reliable sources on the Internet to support the notability, you could just say something like "I've searched for reliable sources, but wasn't able to find enough coverage and came to the conclusion that the subject might not meet notability criteria. Feel free to search the sources yourself, but bear in mind that this task would be very difficult." I think the response like this would be both honest and polite at the same time. Deltaspace42 (talk • contribs) 17:34, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
As a Teahouse regular, I can say that I'm not impressed by some of Tagishsimon's behaviour displayed at the Teahouse, a lot of which straddles on WP:CIVIL. I can accept occasional blatant tactlessness over at the Help Desk, but that's something I think we should shy away from at the Teahouse. This isn't the first time someone's been dragged over their behaviour at the venue on here, though I certainly hope this is the last time. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:37, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
I have made 10,598 edits to the Teahouse, and take that welcoming space very seriously. We should bend over backwards to welcome, assist and gently correct good faith new editors who make commonplace errors. It is also true that Teahouse hosts as a group need to deal with new editors who are here to promote either themselves or an employer/client, or to non-neutrally push a point of view. The challenging task for the Teahouse host is to craft a response to such new editors that is both polite and firm. The new editor must be informed in clear, unambiguous terms that they are welcome to contribute neutral, verifiable content, but that they will simply not be permitted to promote anything or grind any axes. I think that Tagishsimon has a good understanding of our policies and guidelines, but too often. the editor forgets the "polite" aspect of the "polite but firm" formula. I hope that the editor gets the message. Cullen328 (talk) 08:23, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Although the user is now blocked for sockpuppetry, I would still clarify. Indian Secular Front#Ideology says Despite claiming to be 'secular', the party has been described as 'communal' by political analyst Prasenjit Bose. And this is cited. I took jlit from there since Far-left politics says that The term does not have a single, coherent definition; some scholars consider it to represent the left of social democracy, while others limit it to the left of communist parties. Far left has been associated with some forms of authoritarianism, anarchism, communism, and Marxism, or are characterized as groups that advocate for revolutionary socialism and related communist ideologies, or anti-capitalism and anti-globalization. Far-left terrorism consists of extremist, militant, or insurgent groups that attempt to realize their ideals through political violence rather than using democratic processes. And the reporting user himself says that the party is communal and just to tell its founder Abbas Siddiqui is a Muslim cleric and party chairperson is his brother Nawsad Siddique. ShaanSenguptaTalk01:37, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
It's not really relevant to this noticeboard but the article in the Hindu is talking about communal as in Muslim or peasant communities, not communism. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t° 18:15, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
User creating many French-language advert pages in a row
Latest comment: 11 months ago5 comments3 people in discussion
User:Azadmiles created today 4 different pages (on the English Wikipedia, but written in French) all written like unambiguous advertisements rather than articles. Three of them (Groupe Gibault, Privilégiés and Groupe Investiir) were previously deleted, leading to suspicions of sockpuppetry being at play. The last one, Stuga.ca, is in the same format but appears to be a new creation. What should be done? ChaotıċEnby(t · c)20:26, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
I still have doubts about the user possibly being involved in sockpuppetry given these pages had a history of being deleted. ChaotıċEnby(t · c)21:13, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Thanks! Would the creator of Anthony Gibault (a different account, User:Gael1210, although Azadmiles moved the page around) also warrant a check? (PS: Should I also leave them a talk page note for mentioning them in this conversation?) ChaotıċEnby(t · c)21:30, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Personal Attack by BraceUlysses on User talk:FMSky
Latest comment: 11 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion
I am reporting a personal attack by BraceUlysses that occurred on the page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:FMSky. On 30 December 2023, while discussing the Clint Eastwood editing matter on this page, BraceUlysses posted an offensive comment directed at me. This comment, referring to me as a "douchebag," is a clear violation of Wikipedia's No Personal Attacks policy and breaches both the Civility guidelines and the standards of Etiquette expected in discussions.
The use of such language is unacceptable and undermines the collaborative and respectful environment that Wikipedia strives for. I request that this matter be reviewed and appropriate actions be taken in line with Wikipedia's policies on user conduct.
It looks like they stopped editing the music.ly page after your warning. You're coming to AN/I because of a strange userspace draft? --Onorem (talk) 13:25, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
"This page is for chronic and unmanageable behavioral problems" – It's just what I'm seeing based on their editing. If they carry on with Musical.ly, I'll go to AIV. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 13:46, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Yeah, regardless of who is correct in this little edit-war (the page has been protected), this isn't acceptable. 79.185.70.5 and 79.185.70.47 blocked for a week. Black Kite (talk)14:46, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The vast majority of this users edits have been reverted, and with good reason, they're disruptive (click here [115] and Ctrl + F "reverted", your screen will turn yellow).
I only reverted your edits from 3 articles only after it I didn't.. Last time I only reverted an edit it chola invasion of Kedah only once, I didn't revert it after you gave me the reason for removing them
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I did not want to come here as I do believe this editor is acting in good faith, but as they appear to lack the skills to edit in a collaborative environment, I think it's time to consider p-blocking them from the Help Desk and Teahouse. Wikipedia:Help_desk#Questions shows the exact same repetition in questions that came up in this prior discussion Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1143#User:JackkBrown, which also includes information on their November block for much of the same disruption. this discussion is also fraught with issues we've seen before from this editor.
They ask many many questions which exhaust editors' time, resources and patience especially since they do not seem to take the answers on board and just ask again. I don't think this is a factor of their language skills as they can contribute productively in article space, which is why I'm hoping this can be resolved with just a p-block. Thoughts? Suggestions for other outcomes? Note they do not edit the Teahouse as often, but I would not want to see this as an invitation to raise the same questions in a different forum which is why I suggest a p-block from both and encourage them to make use of article Talk, which has been asked of them many times. StarMississippi22:33, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Support. While I am loathe to penalise people for asking questions they don't know the answers to, JackkBrown has been essentially posing the same questions over and over for a good nine months without demonstrating an application of what they've learned to later questions. On a daily average we can expect to see one or two questions from them, to the point where I don't bother answering anymore. While I'm a little leery of a p-block in the event that there is a question that is novel and not related to the MoS, it seems to be the best decision, unless there's a way to guarantee that questions relating to the MOS are forbidden. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:47, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Comment. We have other editors that ask repeated questions that don't get blocked (re: Middleton family). If you don't want to answer the question, skip it and let someone else answer. Or, perhaps a T-Ban on MOS questions (anywhere) instead of an outright block? RudolfRed (talk) 01:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I think *everyone* who use the Help Desk wishes we could limit Srbernadette. But they just log out and ask anyway and refuse to address the basics like wrong info/date in the field, so unless there was an edit filter on the Middleton family, I'm not sure it's possible. Also, User_talk:Star_Mississippi/Archive_3#Srbernadette so I'm very much consistent in the "these are a drain on limited volunteer resources". I would be fine with a T-Ban, but when they inevitably break the T-Ban ( based on history, no bad faith), they'll end up blocked. I'm trying to avoid that. StarMississippi02:01, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
It might be possible to reduce that editor's pestering the Help Desk by wrapping Middleton family in span style=".mw-parser-output span.cs1-visible-error {display: none;} ". Might be against a rule somewhere though. Folly Mox (talk) 08:56, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I'd be happy if the Middleton editor learned to use edit requests instead of coming by the help desk every five or six days. I seem to recall other users instructing them on how to fix things, to which they claim they are unable to do it themselves. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 02:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Support reluctantly. I too am loathe to sanction editors for asking questions, but JackkBrown's behavior is pretty egregious. It's a difficult decision because I have absoutely no doubt that they are acting in good faith and want to improve the encyclopedia. They have been quite prolific, making over 40,000 edits in just over a year. Unfortunately, 1,387 of those edits have been questions to the Help Desk, and which, as noted above, have mostly been asking the same small set of questions over and over again, mostly about whether a particular word should be italicized and/or capitalized. This fixation on small typographical issues would not be an issue if they didn't keep cluttering the Help Desk with these questions. Right at this moment there are 36 threads on the Help Desk; four of them were started by JackkBrown, which is not an unusual situation. CodeTalker (talk) 01:56, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Support The repetitive questions about trivial italicization and capitalization matters waste volunteer time. The editor has been repeatedly advised to use their own best judgment. Their focus of attention is Italy and the Italian language and they expect volunteers who do not speak Italian to provide judgments on obscure issues related to Italian usage and vocabulary. Most irritating is that they repeatedly insist that Help Desk volunteers explain why some random other editor did some trivial thing like italicizing or not italicizing some specific word. It has gotten ridiculous. Cullen328 (talk) 09:15, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Support, this time around. They have been offered an abundance of friendly help and advice to avoid falling foul but, despite acknowledgement and thanks, seldom puts it into practice. Their attitude to anything is to expect other users to do the leg-work for them, particularly when it comes to looking up simple MOS policies or guidelines. I should assume good faith, but I think they're following their own personal agenda and targets, rather than considering the collaborative improvement of WP as the primary goal. As well as the issues mentioned above, they've stretched the limit when it comes to lecturing people on what they should be editing; ignoring basic policies (especially WP:BRD and WP:OTHERSCOMMENTS) when they don't fit with their way of working; and filling up page histories (and their personal edit count) with rapid miniscule edits, often with no effect on content, about which they have been offered advice previously. Apologies for seeming to rant: patience has been stretched rather thin by this user. Bazza (talk) 10:19, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Comment. Rather than an outright ban/block, how about a limit on the number of questions they can ask, such as "JackkBrown is limited to a maximum of 2 questions per week at wikipedia help forums (including the help desk and teahouse)"? That way they can still use these forums, but it should reduce the volume of questions to a more reasonable level. 86.23.109.101 (talk) 11:16, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I did not want to pile on in this ANI thread, so I'm not officially "voting" on the above, but I would support this proposal if it came with some promise from JackkBrown to consult the various policy and MOS entries that are being used to answer their questions before they may ask again. The overall issue is more than just quantity: less frequent instances of trouble working with others and blanket refusal to engage with specific norms are instances nonetheless. The communication and time of other editors is still being intently disregarded for what are still very unclear reasons. I would not say it's acceptable, for example, to be wholly tendentious and dismissive of another editor's dignity if one limits themselves to doing it only twice a year—while these issues are much more minor than that, rate-limiting is still an inadequate solution to an underlying problem that may manifest elsewhere.Remsense留10:26, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Comment. In the event of this pblock, I would add Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, as it seems they may be relocating questions there—as opposed to either reading the page itself or asking on individual article talk pages—which does not address or solve the problem. Remsense留02:34, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
@Remsense: I was wrong to ask the last question, I checked it myself and the term should not be written in italics; there was no need to ask it. The other questions I asked are legitimate, in fact there have been some very good discussions (so you aren't right). JackkBrown (talk) 02:40, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
@HandThatFeeds: so you can (plural) say whatever you want about me, but I can't say a user isn't right? Sorry, I should shut up otherwise I risk being blocked for expressing, educationally, my point of view, I don't do that anymore, sorry... However, the only two questions I have asked, namely "Capitalisation(z)of ancient" and "Curiosity", are entirely legitimate and, contrary to what you claim, I have never asked them elsewhere. JackkBrown (talk) 20:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
You are not at risk of being blocked for expressing [your] point of view, you're at risk for repeatedly asking similar questions over a period of months, and apparently ignoring the answers. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite20:13, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
User MichaelZ. Is trying to silence everyone that post sources that Ukrainian counter offensive of 2023 failed. I understand that he is Hero of Ukraine with the Order of the State, but still.
In WP:GS/RUSUKR is quite clear That Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace to post constructive comments. Now, to explain my comments. ISW made so many claims on start of Counteroffensive, how it will be smashing win, Russians will take one look at Leopards and run awy. What we got is failed counteroffensive, and ISW blaiming uncut grass for fall of Counteroffensive. If you are insulted by that Michael, I am sorry.
'' Institute for the Study of War (ISW) has therefore concluded that the situation has worsened fur Russia.
The ISW report went on to state that Russian soldiers were under constant Ukrainian artillery fire, and that Khodakovsky was unsure "whether distressed and exhausted Russian forces will be able to defend against a future Ukrainian offensive in this sector of the front."
3 Zaluzhny did send his army into one of most dense minefields in the world, with minimal aircover, how is that despuited fact (response was to line ''. Did not the Ukrainian command, who had every bit of information about their own resources, knew that? Well, Zaluzhy would be an incompetent idiot if he did not.''
I've been following those 2 pages closely for a while. Although I agree that the 2 cases in the Battle of Marinka page were not helpful (questioning the reliability of a clearly reliable, albeit somewhat biased, source), I strongly disagree with your judgement and reverts in the counteroffensive page. Both examples (3rd and 4th) are legitimate concerns. The concern about soldiers going on a "suicide mission" in Krynky is backed by the NYT article in a previous section of that page (there's also a publication from Odessa media, which I heard, that calls the operation "criminal" [I still have to find the article though]). The other comment about the Black Sea Fleet is actually a good argument which I haven't really thought of. None of his comments were particularly disruptive, therefore, I urge you to self-revert the latter 2 cases, especially since you've arguably been involved in WP:FORUM yourself. I also don't believe his actions in general warrant another sanction. Simply giving him a well rounded response in the battle of Marinka page convinced him. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 18:01, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Let me elaborate on clearly reliable, albeit somewhat biased, source: clearly reliable for reporting facts and covering the territorial changes, the analyses are another story. And about the "suicide mission", haha, I thought you meant the battle of Krynky, not the counteroffensive in general. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 18:06, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
You're missing the point, though. Kanikosen is not ECP and therefore limited by "Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace to post constructive comments and make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive." I'm not going to take any action here, because I've already partially blocked this editor for disruption in a separate area, but those talkpage comments don't strike me as "constructive", more WP:BATTLEGROUND. Black Kite (talk)18:09, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
This one doesn't address the content, but attacks the editor. Also, this comment was made in an RfC discussion, which is a violation of WP:GS/RUSUKR ("However, non-extended-confirmed editors may not make edits to internal project discussions (which) include, but are not limited to, Articles for deletion nominations, WikiProjects, requests for comment, requested moves, and noticeboard discussions.") and which they could be blocked for. At this point, they just need to back away from the topic area. Black Kite (talk)18:26, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
👍 Yeah, I can't defend Kanikosen in the RfC case (I thought that comment was on a random section). About the "attack on editor" comment, I don't think it was actually an attack, but simply a case of not WP:AGF. It could also have been a criticism to multiple people in general. You could consider him "lucky" that he said that to me, who understood his frustration and tried to "explain the game" in a well rounded way. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 18:42, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
This very reply by Kanikosen show battleground behavior. While they might be right about the content, it would probably be best if they were removed from this topic. Isabelle Belato🏳🌈18:33, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
People do these "oopsies" all the time. Everyone can get heated and "loose faith" in editors and think they're just trying to push their POV. I've seen a bunch of heated discussions already with ECP editors calling each other pro-Russian/Ukrainian or calling that they're pushing propaganda. At the end of the day, we just have to take a break, and chill out with some fresh air for some hours. I don't see a need to punish this editor even more. He's already shown some acceptance by letting other editors erase his comments if they think they are disruptive. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 18:53, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Hm, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Battle_of_Marinka_(2022%E2%80%932023)&diff=prev&oldid=1187954834] I am not attacking any editor or wikipedia user, but responding to ISW comment above me. 2 years in the war ISW to me is in rang of Russian TAS. They made to many mistakes and predictions, and they wait weeks to admit when situation is not favoring Ukraine. For RFC comment, I didn't see it's RFC topic, I saw high praise of Zaluzhny from one editor and responded that he is the one who ordered counteroffensive, and that he knew minefield that waited his lads. And he still send them there with no air cover. There I am guity as charged. I am fine with me being blocked as rule was broken. Kanikosen (talk) 19:02, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
I am not attacking any editor or wikipedia user Yeah. For RFC comment, I didn't see it's RFC topic, I saw high praise of Zaluzhny from one editor and responded that he is the one who ordered counteroffensive 👌 Alexis Coutinho (talk) 19:19, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Saying that editors who disagree with you are "pro Ukrainian" is battleground behavior and not conducive for improving the project. While it's understandable that a newish editor cannot see why that is, your replies here worry me, Alexis Coutinho. Isabelle Belato🏳🌈20:59, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
I am pro-NPOV and pro-reliable sources. So is Wikipedia.
WP:NEWSORG: “ Scholarly sources and high-quality non-scholarly sources are generally better than news reports for academic topics.”
WP:RSBREAKING: “Claims sourced to initial news reports should be immediately replaced with better-researched and verified sources as soon as such articles are published, especially if original reports contained inaccuracies. All breaking news stories, without exception, are primary sources, and must be treated with caution.”
If you are pro-NPOV why are you blocking other editors to write counteroffensive failed, when there is nothing breaking there, for more than a month all major newspapers, plus leader of Counteroffensive Zaluzhnyi admitted it failed? Kanikosen (talk) 09:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
This is a conversation about enforcing general sanctions, not a place to bring your content dispute (but if you prefer, why are you insisting that the conflict’s result be determined based on only one side’s objectives?). —MichaelZ.14:44, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
but if you prefer I don't, the place to discuss that was in that talk page and it's mostly done. This is a conversation about enforcing general sanctions I know, what I'm trying to highlight is that, imo, the discussion started incorrectly. Similar to "the ends don't justify the means", this situation is more like "the means/content don't justify the start". More like a technical argument of wrong venue (I know this is the right venue, I mean the tone/feeling), incorrect judge or improper prosecutor... In other words, while there was indeed an issue (I still don't think it's enough for a sanction), the process shouldn't have been started and carried out like this. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 18:26, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
I properly deleted violating comments. The violator restored them and made it clear they refuse to abide by the general sanction. If getting uninvolved admins’ opinions at ANI was wrong, then what in your opinion was the right thing to do?
So reviewing the facts of the violation is the wrong “tone/feeling,” but your casting aspersions against non-specific “some of your comments” is supposed to help correct this?
I’m sorry, but I respectfully suggest you accept that I disagree with you when you I deem random complaints like “Didn't Zaluzhny send his army to die in most dense minefield on the planet?” and “So Ukrainians eliminated Russian cruise missile capabilites of Black sea fleet? Black sea is safe for Ukrainian ships? Ukraine got around 10 minutes more warning depending on on ship location and that is all” to be a constructive comment about edits to the article that somehow should be an exception to the rule that non-EC users are not allowed to make edits.
You’ll notice that permissiveness has now led more non-EC users to chime in with non-constructive comments on the same thread, and non-EC users have started a new thread on the exact same topic, amounting to nothing but protests and forum talk, where the subject of this ANI discussion is racking up their record. —MichaelZ.18:44, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
I properly deleted violating comments. Not completely. The Black Sea one was at least a good argument which could have been used in the "derailing" RfC discussion by other EC editors, though yeah, he shouldn't have posted in a RfC. The one replying to my Operation Barbarossa comment was a legitimate concern, though potentially lacking WP:AGF, which I'm trying to explore. Yeah, sure, the "suicide mission counteroffensive" one was potentially "toxic" and shouldn't have been posted in a RfC. Thus I agree with 2/3 of your deletions. The violator restored them and made it clear they refuse to abide by the general sanction. Well, he could have thought that you were making a mistake and that his comment didn't violate anything (the reinstated wasn't in the RfC and was the most "tame" one). After having all his comments bluntly deleted it's understandable, though not justifiable, that he would be frustrated/angry and feel potentially challenged, especially if he already know your general POV. If getting uninvolved admins’ opinions at ANI The way you phrased this section doesn't make it seem that you sought others' opinions, instead, it sounded more like a cold and closed accusation. what in your opinion was the right thing to do? When I started writing this comment I thought of: nothing, wait or let other less involved editors do the deletion. But I reconsidered and understand that deleting only the most pressing comments at first and giving more human-like explanations in the deletion edit summaries would be best. You know that everyone hates being "brute forced into submission" with vague explanations of rules. It's just like those automated blocks that don't give any detail pertaining the specific case and the person feels like they can't do anything/they're powerless. In other words, it would have been better to be gentler at first since the editor didn't do anything grave like personal attack to editor, hate speech, swearing, etc. Only then if the editor insists after a human-like, helpful, fellow editor explanation that clearly shows good faith, you would proceed to blunter language and ANI. That's my opinion and it's assuming both of you didn't have any "beef" with each other beforehand.
I’m sorry, but I respectfully suggest you accept that I disagree with you thanks for phrasing it like this, it lets me concur with you in this aspect without making anyone "look worse". You’ll notice that permissiveness has now led more non-EC users to chime in with non-constructive comments on the same thread... Yeah... Though I think it's still manageable. The discussions on these pages are mostly nearing completion. After a while they'll most likely be "chill". But this isn't really an argument against you.
All in all, I think the current version of the talk page is ok (considering the deletions and reverts). But I agree that we should be more attentive to future non-constructive comments, though I believe we should let actions be done a little bit more at other editors' discretion, especially when they are the ones being replied with such comments. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 20:26, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
your replies here worry me Huh? Saying that editors who disagree with you are "pro Ukrainian" is battleground behavior I didn't deny that nor justify it. I just disagreed with your suggestion to "remove him from this topic". Alexis Coutinho (talk) 22:22, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
those talkpage comments don't strike me as "constructive" At least one of them is, a bit. I mean, I've seen much more disruptive comments coming from other non-ECP users before. Compared to those, Kanikosen's comments are quite "tame", though, yeah, still not above (the constructiveness) average (which is what I think you would expect from to post constructive comments). At least they weren't insistant (a well rounded response by me seemed to "have done the trick" in the battle of Marinka page). In my opinion though, what's more disruptive are walls of text from ECP users engaging in WP:FORUM, something that I might not be exempt from either. Still, with all due respect, I don't think Michael Z would be the most adequate person to engage in deleting his comments. I wonder what the other editors in those pages think of this and if any of them indeed consider those few comments as disruptive. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 18:27, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
to me, and I can mention plenty of military officers from western counties and Nato, offensive was doomed to fail from the start. No airforce. And when they encountered first minefields, they knew that Tokmak plan will not work. I am just saying what everyone who was not in school of Hamish Stephen de Bretton-Gordon knew, Russian will not take one look at Leopards and run away. Entire offensive was based on Russians looking at Nato gear and running away. If my comments are disruptive or against rules, then delete them. Kanikosen (talk) 18:22, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Please specifically name those sources you allude to in this comment. Not only their names, but their qualifications which would enable us to publish their opinions (only subject experts can be cited), and the published sources of their opinions. What you know is not sufficient, nor are you opinions or analysis valid sources of information. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:18, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
From Douglas Macgregor to Markus Reisner, from Scott Ritter to Marinko Ogorec, from Daniel L. Davis to Ray McGovern you have plenty of military officers saying from day 1 of counteroffensive it's sucide as you have no air superiority and worst, 0.8 to 1 numerical disadvantage. I don't claim or claimed they need to be put in article, just stating my point why did I say in comment that Zaluzhnyi kew he don't stand chance in hell for counteroffensive to work, but he sign order to send them into certan death. Same as Michael Z. idea that counteroffensive is stil going strong is not valid opinion or analysis? As he is one using blocking aproved editors to write counteroffensive failed.
When extreme proUkrainian admin and editor delets comments from talk page that Ukrainian offensive failed, and you have sources for that in every major wester newspapers from multiple users on talk page, what should new edditor do? Kanikosen (talk) 09:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
The above is not a constructive comment, and prohibited by WP:GS/RUSUKR. The user is hijacking this discussion of their violations by starting a content discussion, and piling on the violations right here on ANI (and I’ll add, citing anti-Ukrainian crackpots that appear on Russian state propaganda broadcasts).
@Kanikosen, I object to the insulting label “extreme proUkrainian”: please apologize and delete or strike this comment.
I deleted violating comments according to the spirit and letter of RUSUKR: “D. Reverts made solely to enforce this restriction are not considered edit warring.” —MichaelZ.18:31, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
The above is not a constructive comment, and prohibited by WP:GS/RUSUKR. The user is hijacking this discussion of their violations by starting a content discussion He was literally replying to a request by Beyond My Ken for sources (partially, he didn't provide their qualifications), and defending his thought process. citing anti-Ukrainian crackpots that appear on Russian state propaganda broadcasts come on man, this is what I'm talking about with you being "too involved" with the subject (Ukraine war). I think it would be more productive if you stepped back and let the other admins handle this, or alternatively if you refrained from making comments that showed significant personal "involvement" with the subject. please apologize and delete or strike this comment. Please don't allude to being an angel. You've also made insulting remarks towards Russians at times. I think both of you should apologize or retract those more insulting/battleground comments. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:15, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
I would like to make it clear that several sources, probably majority, do suggest that the counteroffensive failed. The reflist at the bottom of Talk:2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive#Comments (ignore the Putin ref) shows examples to name a few. Though I admit that the statement that the general "knew from the start" that the operation was doomed is a bit more delicate and would really benefit from actual citations/quotes here. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 11:47, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Two different locations involved here. One range is New York City, the other is Detroit. The Detroit IPs sometimes make good-faith changes supported by cites, and sometimes they vandalize. This recent BLP violation stands out, and this one. They have picked sides in some culture war I don't understand, prettying up Ciara and Drake while throwing shade on Megan Thee Stallion, Kim Petras and Keke Palmer.[133]
The NYC range also hates on Kim Petras and Megan Thee Stallion, and puffs up Ciara and Drake. The ranges behave the same. Overall, this person is a net negative to the project. Binksternet (talk) 06:56, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago11 comments7 people in discussion
This afternoon, an IP of 197.26.103.153 made several messages to seemingly random Arabic (?) users (see Special:Contributions/197.26.103.153), telling them that their usernames do not conform to WP policies. None of these "users" seem to have ever made edits, so I wonder whether these are purely tests and that none of these users actually exist? Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 15:37, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Checking in Google Translate, a lot of those usernames appear to be on the same template ("furniture transfer in XXX", although the translation might be approximate), while other appear to have names of museums (and thus not necessarily conform to username policy). Some of them also appear to have user pages (e.g. User:نقل عفش بالرياض, apparently describing itself as a furniture transfer company in Riyadh), so there might be more to it. ChaotıċEnby(t · c)17:17, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Apparently, a lot of these actually don't fit the username policy. It would be great to have an Arabic-speaking admin look at them (and, if possible, review the IP block if it turns out the warnings were indeed legitimate). ChaotıċEnby(t · c)19:45, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
I do not think that an Arabic speaking administrator is required here, but rather that the help of any editor fluent in Arabic and willing to assist an administrator would be very useful in this situation. Cullen328 (talk) 08:48, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
(non-admin comment) Possibly coincidence, but up to at least 2016 there was a persistent commercial spammer on English-language Yahoo! Answers who posted ads in Arabic for a removals company in Riyadh. Most were caught by a filter, but 1 or 2 a day might get through. Narky Blert (talk) 11:24, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion
The block of a registered account hasn't slowed things down--now it's a team of IPs. See report here from December 26 [137]. More eyes on this, with possible user sanctions, reversion of poorly sourced and/or copied content again, followed by a lock. Thanks and HNY. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 01:06, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Page semiprotected for a month, let me know if any more accounts pop up and I can reset it to extended confirmed. As I'm acting in an admin capacity, I'd encourage anyone who wants to approach this as an editor go through and see if anything should be trimmed from what's currently there. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:05, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The admin morekar has been blocking and making changes that does not have proper source on the wiki page salaar part 1 ceasfire request to take action as soon as possible 117.241.48.68 (talk) 11:10, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Morekar is not an admin, you didn't notify the user, and nothing here appears to require admin intervention. I see no reason to keep this section open. --Yamla (talk) 11:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Ironically, European Union Fan has a point that isn't being answered by the other edit warriors, except to point xem to another talk page after pointing xem to that talk page:
This seems to be a case where someone has followed the advice to take it to the talk page, and been met with Kafkaesque take-it-to-the-talk-page-where-I'll-tell-you-to-take-it-to-another-talk-page responses and silence and reversions with advanced permissions editing tools and templated warnings and blocks. And no-one has stopped to think "Hold on! What's the year being reported on by that U.N. report that we're pointing to, again?"
Latest comment: 11 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion
DublinDilettante (talk·contribs) has a worrying habit of unsourced political claims, I noticed that they repeatedly edited War against the potato beetle to claims about MOS:TERRORIST despite it not being in the sources amongst other claims and then made hostile remarks about needing to follow sources because of the country it is.
The David McCullagh one is particularly egregious; adding "in pro-NATO circles" in this diff where there are no mentions of NATO in the citation at all, and upon being reverted, instantly returning it without comment beyond the edit summary. From the diffs you've provided, and from having form for WP:NPA violations such as this, this feels like a case of WP:RGW. ser!(chat to me - see my edits)13:03, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Fail to see how this user is a networth to this site. All their edits have been reverted, since they clearly prefer their own personal opinion above that of cited WP:RS (eg [144]).
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There seems to be some socking going on at a newly created article titled Arvin Abdollahzadeh. Several "new" users have attempted to remove the CSD tag without adequate explanation. I've reverted all of their attempts, but everything seems highly suspicious in my opinion. CycloneYoristalk!21:42, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This editor has a pattern of trying to use constant reverting to force through her preferred edits. At present, she is involved in edit warring to force a particular edit on The Chosen (TV series), while casting aspersions that there is some sort of collusion going on to avoid 3RR rules.
Prior to the reversion cycle, the cast list descriptions of certain characters referred to them as "apostles". [145]
She again reverted to her preferred change, this time accusing me in her edit summary of colluding to avoid 3RR [150]
I explained to her via the talk page that consensus via editing was to the version status quo ante and asked her to leave it as such while WP:BRD ensued and reverted to status quo ante[151].
At that point, she reverted a third time [152] and insists there is no consensus until discussion is complete.
I pointed out that two separate editors have reverted her changes and asked her to put the article back to status quo ante until a discussion determines a change in editing consensus [153].
My issue is twofold - first, this user has a tendency to try to force through edits in this type of manner and seems to believe that a given change is valid until a discussion determines otherwise, ignoring existing consensus that has been arrived at both through editing (previous and current) as well as previous discussions. And second, using edit summaries in a manner disparaging to other editors (WP:ESDONTS). I will grant that her statement may come across as relatively mild (Tag team reverting so one editor is not dinged for edit warring is not kosher), and I've certainly been called worse in the past. Ordinarily, I'd simply ignore that part of it. However, when taken in context of the whole, what she is suggesting here out in the open is that there is collusion going on when in fact it is specifically two separate and unrelated editors voicing the opinion that her edit is not accepted at present. That's exactly what consensus through editing is, and she's using it to make accusations that are simply untrue.
NOTE: I want to make clear, this is about the behavioral issue and not the content dispute. Were it simply the content itself, it would be inappropriate to bring to this forum. I also did not take it to the edit warring forum as there were other issues involved. ButlerBlog (talk) 18:07, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Unless asked specific questions, I will only add to this discussion with what I put at the article talk page, beginning with the first entry when I started the talk topic:
"Disciples, not Apostles
The 12 men following Jesus in the show are not Apostles. They are not referred to as Apostles. "Apostles" as a label was not given to the 12 Disciples until after Jesus' death, resurrection, and the Holy Spirit descended on all of them, as recorded in the Book of Acts. The Chosen is a show based on the Gospels of Jesus Christ. Acts is not one of the Gospel books. The cast/character descriptions need to match what's happening in the show and the literature the show is based on, not what was written about the Disciples/Apostles in books not included in the Gospels or in the show's content. Butlerblog, for whatever reason, is set on keeping the description of the 12 students/followers of Jesus as "Apostles", but not once have the writers referred to the Disciples in the show as Apostles, nor has that been reflected in the script. In fact, there was no such thing AS an apostle in Christendom until after the events of the Book of Acts took place. I believe using "Apostles" in this article isn't just incorrect, is anachronistic and changes the narrative of the show. A4M2 02:21, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Radiant Fellow & Butlerblog: Yes, Jesus chose them to be His Apostles, but for the future, for a later time. The 11 (not 12 because of Judas' betrayal and suicide) became apostles later, after the death and resurrection of Jesus. They could not be apostles while Jesus was still on earth because while He was there, they were his students, His disciples. Apostles are emissaries. Jesus commissioned the disciples to be His emissaries AFTER He had resurrected. Even in the body of this article, they are referred to repeatedly as disciples, not apostles. Dallas Jenkins, in interviews, refers to them as disciples, not apostles. The actors themselves, refer to their characters as disciples, not apostles. This link to Angel Studios' list of the cast in the show refers to them as disciples, not apostles. [154] Their characters are disciples in the show, therefore, they need to be referred to as disciples in this article as well. The article is about the show, so we need to stick to the facts of and about the show based on sources (like the cast list from Angel Studios - and others elsewhere online). We can't justify using "apostle" because it was uttered once in the show. Repeated use of "disciples" to describe the 12's characters in cast lists, scripts, and by the writers themselves is evidence enough that "disciples" is correct and "apostles" is not. A4M2 16:25, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
@Butlerblog: and @Radiant Fellow:, you are reverting without discussing. Your repeated reverts are not the way to come to a consensus, so why you claimed in an edit summary there was already consensus makes no sense. Your quote of one instance in the show and script where "apostles" was used vs. the multiple times "disciple(s)" is used in the show, as well as the multiple cast lists found online that say "disciple" (including from Angel Studios, see link in my previous comments above) is not persuasive. Attacking me in your last comments and trying to make a case against me as an editor is not discussing the issue and topic at hand. Please stick with the facts of the show, the actual scripts and cast lists that refer to the characters of the 12 as disciples (not apostles), and go from there. If you revert again without actual discussion and consideration of the very valid points I made above, I will have no choice but to report you for edit warring and just being plain stubborn in a POV manner. I don't want to do that, but at this point feel as if you are intentionally forcing my hand that direction. Please, if you have strong evidence other than one utterance of "apostles" during the three seasons and 24 episodes that "disciples" isn't accurate, then bring it here so we can talk about it. Thank you. A4M2 17:19, 30 December 2023 (UTC)"
ButlerBlog is insisting "apostles" is correct when it's not. Every cast list online, including the originating studio that helped produce the show itself, names each of the 12 men as "disciples". Other cast lists online show the same. I included a link in my comments above to Angel Studios as a reliable source that can be used to support use of "Disciple(s)". The director of the show calls them disciples, the actors themselves refer to their characters as disciples, the script repeatedly refers to them as disciples. Can someone explain to me why one instance of the Jesus character referring to the 12, in future tense/context, as "apostles" makes for a good argument that the cast list in the article should also refer to them as "apostles"? I'm willing to change my mind, but I can't find anything that brings me to the place of consensus "apostle" is accurate for the sake of the article. And why I'm now blocked for the first time ever is astounding to me. I'm pinging the blocking administrator (@Black Kite:) to also, hopefully, read my commentary here and possibly reconsider. A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 18:33, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
I have partially blocked Alaska4me2 from this article only for a short while, as their latest edit took them over WP:3RR. They need to remember that even if they believe they're correct in the content dispute, "being right" does not mean you can edit-war. Black Kite (talk)18:40, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
@Black Kite:, I'm not at all familiar with what's reasonable or usual and customary when blocking someone with no previous blocks over about four years' time of editing. Is two weeks typical and considered a short while in Wikipedia? A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 19:11, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Yes, sure; I certainly wouldn't block someone completely for two weeks for a first offence, but when it's a partial block from one article only the length is saying "have a break from this article, please" which of course wouldn't really be useful if it were a very short block. Black Kite (talk)20:06, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
What is "reasonable or usual and customary" is to wait until a talk page conversation has concluded before changing article content. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:33, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
True, @Phil Bridger:. I started the conversation after the first revert back to the incorrect wording. When claiming consensus that didn't actually exist, the other individual reverted back again. I'm not defending my use of another reversion, far from it. I'm defending that the incorrect wording shouldn't have been reverted back and reasons for keeping it that way were weak. E.g., non-existing consensus, and one instance of the word "apostle" being used in a completely different context. Also, saying the status quo version is correct (even when it's wrong) solely BECAUSE it's the long standing status quo seems like a strange argument for not instituting an appropriate correction. Especially for an article being considered for Goof Article status. A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 20:42, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
But you should wait until the talk page discussion has concluded. By definition, in any dispute each "side" thinks that they are right. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:50, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
@Phil Bridger:, I see that now. But please realize, I'm not taking a side for my benefit, for the benefit of winning an argument. My intent was never that. It was to make a needed correction because the evidence and at least one reliable source supports the correction. After ButlerBlog named me at his own talk page as the source of the problem at the article and article talk page, I just asked them whether they would have made the change in the wording because of the evidence I was able to provide that adequately supported that change IF the reversion hadn't occurred and a good conversation was truly attempted on their part. It will be interesting to see what their response is to that legitimate and important question. A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 20:59, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
@Alaska4Me2: RE: After ButlerBlog named me at his own talk page as the source of the problem at the article and article talk page... You mean in the discussion where you accused me of making personal attacks without evidence?[155] Please note that making accusations of personal attacks without supporting evidence is itself a form of personal attack (WP:WIAPA). You made a similar accusation on the article talk page.[156] It's one thing to address editor behavior on a user talk page; it is quite something else (inappropriate) to do on the article talk page. Your unfounded accusations are not helping to de-escalate this in the least. ButlerBlog (talk) 21:11, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
@Butlerblog: I'm genuinely sorry you are so heated about the whole thing, that you think anything needs to be de-escalated. It's been hours and hours now since our disagreement started, and if you are truly escalated (or maybe not now but were when you wrote your last comment a few hours ago), that's a pity and I'm sorry you feel that way. Maybe it's the term "edit war" that fires people up; I've never thought calling editing differences expressed through changes in wording and content "edit warring" is a good idea. If the objective is to keep people calm and spending time in Wikipedia enjoyably, then even the disagreements can be a learning experience rather than putting such a negative and fiery label on it that suggests battle. To be clear, I was never escalated or angry, just confused why you would want to revert back to something so obviously incorrect. If you were escalated-angry or even mildly upset-escalated by my actions, please except my humble apology. I never want to cause anyone else to feel that way. A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 03:39, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Let me clarify for you that I'm not heated. While I believe your contrition is in good faith, you're avoiding the issue that you escalated this into. You seem to think that by "escalate", I somehow mean "hurt feelings" or "anger", which is not at all the case. Escalation means that you've taken what started off as a content dispute and escalated it into something else, and it's the "something else" that you continue to avoid and have not addressed. I'm not sure at this point if you're just WP:NOTLISTENING or if it's intentional WP:GASLIGHTING to avoid the issue. It started with your edit summary suggesting there was collusion in reverts to avoid 3RR [157], which was unfounded. You then made multiple unfounded accusations of personal attacks. On my TP and the article TP, you accused me of making personal attacks [158][159], yet when asked, you provided zero evidence. Making accusations of personal attacks without evidence is itself a form of personal attack. The accusation on my personal talk page came after my opening this ANI discussion, in which you also claimed that opening this ANI discussion was a personal attack. ANI is for addressing behavioral issues, not content disputes, and as I pointed out at the very top of this, the unfounded accusations is the behavioral problem that warranted this. Instead of addressing that, you dug in with those additional, after-the-fact accusations. If you're apologizing for anything, it should address your unfounded accusations. While I'm not seeking an apology, some acknowledgement that you understand our WP:CIVILITY policy is warranted so that we know that you actually understand the issue here - and if you don't, then we need to address why. Consider striking your comments on the article TP in which you made specific accusations previously noted per WP:REMOVEUNCIVIL. ButlerBlog (talk) 15:16, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
@Black Kite: As I noted in the above discussion, this user has a pattern of civility issues. Although @Alaska4Me2 is on a partial block from the article for 3RR reasons, she's still commenting on the article talk page in which she continues to cast aspersions regarding my intent. Even though I have pointed out above where she has, without evidence, accused me of personal attacks, she is now doubling down on her accusations of collaborationcollusion followed by overtly accusing me of WP:OWN: It would be great if you actually came here to discuss rather than acting in proxy for another editor who, it now seems from all appearances, feels he has ownership over the article.[160] I don't want to pursue an IBAN, but she really doesn't seem to get the point about the WP:CIVIL issues. Would you consider expanding the current block to include the article talk for now? I want to be optimistic that she'll eventually WP:GETTHEPOINT and hope that we can move forward productively.ButlerBlog (talk) 20:15, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Withdrawing that last request as I have respectfully requested @Alaska4Me2 self-impose it (whether they do or not is up to them). At this point, I consider the entire matter closed and hopefully we can move forward productively from here. ButlerBlog (talk) 17:24, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
With all due respect, all of my contributions to Wikipedia have been founded on others' writings and have included extensive citations.
I am an award-winning writer who has had 3 books published by an academic press.
I believe that the foundation of all knowledge comes from primary sources, followed by secondary sources. (Before there is criticism, there needs to be something to criticize.)
In the contributions I have made over the last 3 years to Wikipedia, my aim has been to help introduce the Public to Theosophical ideas that remain largely unknown. I contend that these ideas are often quite difficult to understand. While the Wikipedia articles under question would benefit from secondary sources as well, that in no way negates the importance of presenting the ideas of Theosophists themselves, so these ideas can, at the very least, be understood by the diverse people who partake of Wikipedia.
I believe my writing is terse, cogent, and well-researched. Those who have criticized my contributions have failed to contribute anything substantial (i.e., in terms of breadth or length) to the articles Sanat Kumara and Initiation (Theosophy), yet they do not hesitate altering what I have written. Should my critics sincerely wish to help elevate specific articles, rather than dissecting, and dismantling or censoring my contributions, I would encourage them to do research themselves, to come to understand the subject matter more profoundly, and to present secondary sources of their own choosing to expand upon the articles. RayofLightning (talk) 03:34, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Everything RayofLightning says in the above response indicates someone who is an adherent of the philosophy/religion in question (adherents consider it a philosophy, while scholars of religion consider it a religion because it is based on faith and not facts) who is here to right the great wrong that people don't know enough about their preferred philosophy. They admit to using WP:primary sources -- i.e. the writing of his co-religionists -- in preference to secondary sources; such sources may indeed be used, only with great care, but WP:Reliable sources are meant to be independent, and clearly those sources are not. Being a believer in the subject of an article is not necessarily a reason to be banned from contributing to that article, but the editor must be able to write from outside the subject with a neutral point of viewFurther, there is no necessity for critics of RayofLightning's contributions to be contributors to articles about theosophy, indeed, authors with no inherent connection to or deep interest in the subject are probably better positioned to determine when an editor's contributions manifest a WP:POV problem.I believe that RayofLightning is a pro-Theosophy WP:SPA who is unable to write from a neutral point of view, regardless of his publishing history as an author (not every book is indicative of an ability to write to Wikipedia's specifications), and should be placed under a topic ban regarding Theosophy. I would support such a proposal if someone were to present it here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:51, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Incidentally, the above editor declaring that they are "an award-winning writer who has had 3 books published by an academic press" is a blatant Argument from authority, which not only is invalid in Wikipedia's terms, but which is null and void due to the editor using a pseudonym, which makes it impossible for us to evaluate the quality of those books, and the status of those "academic press" publishers, who most likely have a totally different criteria and standard for publication compared to ours. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Just a snippet of one of RayofLightning most recent edits:[164] In addition, Helena Roerich, like Blavatsky, Bailey, and Creme, was able to receive messages from the Masters of Wisdom telepathically... Having telepathy stated as fact in wikivoice is concerning, as is the fact it was added without any sourcing. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t° 14:34, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Likewise for "karmon particles" [165]. Plenty of people have tried to put a scientific veneer upon esoteric beliefs, but those attempts should not be repeated in wiki-voice. XOR'easter (talk) 16:26, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
A bit of clarity regarding "the contributions [RayofLightning has] made over the last 3 years": they did indeed start editing three years ago but I hope they haven't made anybody think they have three years' experience here. On May 9th, 2021, they made their first two edits, both inappropriate changes to The New Land that were quickly reverted. They didn't edit again for well over a year, not reappearing until August 7th, 2022. With 319 edits in 32 months, they're averaging less than ten changes a month and should be given the same guidance and treated with the same skepticism as all brand-new users. City of Silver21:12, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
RayofLightning's comment above suggest to me a fundamental misunderstanding as to the purpose of wikipedia - a tertiary source, using existing published secondary sources for any analysis - and to the policies the community has agreed on to ensure that articles are suited to that purpose. A topic ban isn't going to rectify that, and I'd have to suggest that if RayofLightning's objective is to "help introduce the Public to Theosophical ideas that remain largely unknown", they would be better off employing their writing talents elsewhere, where they aren't constrained by such requirements. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:30, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
There are two issues here. RayofLightning has shown that they either ignore or fundamentally misunderstand our policy on original research. [166][167][168] But over and above that, they are a very obvious 'believer' in theosophy who wishes to write on Wikipedia from a theosophic perspective, not from a neutral point of view as determined by secondary sources. E.g., we have a good article (current revision) on the theosophic concept of Masters of the Ancient Wisdom (to me a GA on WP is anything that is reliably sourced and that gets the gist of a subject across in a neutral way; such articles are rarer than one might think). Now just look at the POV disaster RayofLightning turned it into [169].Perhaps the first issue can be solved, since it's common for newcomers (and I agree with City of Silver above that RayofLightning should be treated as a newcomer) to misunderstand the nature of Wikipedia. @RayofLightning: we strictly present the point of view of secondary, independent (in this case, that means academic) sources. Primary sources are only used to illustrate analysis already found in and cited to secondary sources. We do not give editors the freedom to analyze and interpret primary sources for themselves, no matter their expertise. These rules (found in WP:OR and WP:NPOV) are not open for discussion. Do you think you could abide by them when editing Wikipedia?As for the second issue, I believe it is very likely to continue causing problems, since apart from turning to primary sources, there are other 'traps' one can fall in on Wikipedia when one wishes to write from a certain philosophical or religious perspective (e.g., failing to observe due weight when reviewing secondary sources). It would probably be a good idea for RayofLightning to edit other topics for a while before coming back to theosophy. I propose a topic ban on theosophy, broadly construed, appealable in one year on WP:AN. I agree with Andy that if RayofLightning wishes to continue writing from primary sources, by far the best solution would be for them to look for another place to publish their writings. However, just in case they choose to stay and agree to follow WP policy re primary sources, the topic ban would be helpful in steering RayofLightning to a subject area where it would perhaps be easier for them to edit in a policy-compliant way and thus learn how things are done on Wikipedia. ☿ Apaugasma (talk☉)21:04, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago8 comments5 people in discussion
User:DogTraining01 registered 29 December, and since then has made 483 edits, not a single one of which improves an article. They appear to be a program which replaces words with synonyms, or expressions with similar expressions. This could be driven off a dictionary, and run automatically. A few examples:
Afaict, all 483 edits by this user are of the type shown in the first example, without exception. User DT01 neither responds to messages left at their Talk page, nor do they complain about the fact that I've reverted probably one hundred of their edits. Please block. Mathglot (talk) 12:57, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
I wholeheartedly agree, this user is WP:NOTHERE and hasn't changed articles for the better. I consider adding euphemisms and fluffy, ineffectual text to be disruptive, and, especially after several warnings, it's hard to assume good faith anymore. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK13:48, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Almost all of their edits made the article slightly worse, because some words, while being synonymous, are inappropriate in the context, and they also removed some of the wikilinks in the process. We'd need to revert almost all of their edits. Deltaspace42 (talk • contribs) 14:00, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Well, it's not true to say that they've never responded to messages on their talk page. They did here, saying ok,i am really sorry, i will not repeat. Then they proceeded to continue doing exactly the same thing. I've blocked from article space indefinitely pending an explanation of what exactly they're trying to achieve here. Spicy (talk) 14:42, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
I strongly suspect AI use to do the rephrasing rather than any attempt at actual understanding. The edits come in tight bursts on seemingly randomly chosen articles, something a genuine human editor seems unlikely to do. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
@David Eppstein: Well, they used the visual editor, and I think that it would be easier for them to automate the edits through some API without using the visual editor. Probably just clicked Special:Random, chose random sentence in the article and rephrased it (without looking at the context). At least that is my impression from skimming through 200 of their edits and reverting roughly 80 of them, because they were changing the content in the quotes or removing wikilinks or just making the text harder to understand (with the same meaning of the content). Deltaspace42 (talk • contribs) 18:43, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Thanks Spicy, David, and DS for correcting the record wrt UTP response and VE use. That implies manual edits, and the theory about "random" + AI seems possible, too. But whatever method they used, the result is what counts, and as it was pointless, problematic, bot-like, and unmotivated by any desire to improve the encyclopedia, it ended as it should. Thanks. Mathglot (talk) 21:25, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago109 comments23 people in discussion
Content dispute moved to talk. Uninvolved user reminds everyone to try to resolve disputes directly by contacting the user and notifying them before coming to ANI. Andre🚐00:35, 2 January 2024 (UTC) Would it be self-referential humor if I undid this close? EEng
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Levivich has just undone [170] a close on Talk:Self-referential humor that was specifically requested at WP:CR, with his only stated pretext being that it was not an RfC, even though formal closes are not reserved for RfC's, and in contravention of the normal procedure for undoing closes as outlined at WP:CLOSE. He has now also taken to unwarrantedly removing [171] other users' comments that express a contrary point of view. 149.86.189.197 (talk) 15:17, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
I explained on the talk page. If you want to enable harassment by restoring those edits, go ahead. Don't ask me to believe that all those different IPs and brand new accounts are anything other than one troll. WP:DENY is the only tool left when RFPP is declined. Levivich (talk) 15:36, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Can't SPI IPs and accounts. Ironically, the last time I tried that, Bbb called me an obvious sock, I went to ANI about it, which is when I saw the thread about you and got involved in your arbcom case. That whole series of events was a big mistake by me. And here we are again, small world eh? :-) So no, not doing that again, no SPI. In all seriousness, best way to stop the disruption on that page is to ECP it. Levivich (talk) 15:41, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
True, although not always, and CUs can confirm whether a named account is editing from a range, see WP:CUIPDISCLOSE. Either way, I suggest we err on the side of AGF for now and keep the talk page posts. GiantSnowman15:45, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
My AGF tank is empty on this one, I know other editors' mileage may vary on that. Anyway, it's obvious to me that they know how to beat a CU since they're using a wide variety of (I assume non-public-proxy) IPs. Levivich (talk) 15:47, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
I've honestly no idea what it even is that you're referring to as "harassment", unless your definition of "harassment" is just "voicing a contrary opinion". And my understanding is that the rule is "one person, one account", but not "one person, one IP address". Editing from multiple IP addresses usually isn't considered socking. 149.86.189.197 (talk) 15:53, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
I do have to say that I consider it a little suspicious that D5E6, an IP with no previous contributions, has turned up to participate in this ANI discussion immediately after it was opened with a relatively trollish comment (obviously, Levivich’s objection wasn’t based on the use of the template) BilledMammal (talk) 16:09, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
It's amazing that a hatnote at the bottom of Self-referential humor receives more IP editing from different IPs from all over the world, and brand-new accounts, than anything on the WP:TOP25 (go ahead, compare the page histories and count the different IPs). It's incredible, it's the most popular article for IPs, and they don't want to change anything about the article except for the hatnote. Who wants to buy a bridge in Florida? Levivich (talk) 16:14, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Perhaps because most of those are semi-protected? And it hasn't just been IP's, or even brand-new accounts, if you check the page history. This really just shows what a waste of time the link is as there's been little page activity on anything else for months, and your only real contribution has been to hallucinate a long-term consensus and harassment issues. 149.86.189.197 (talk) 16:22, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
For what it's worth:
"Ashburn is a major hub for US Internet traffic, due to its many data centers. Andrew Blum characterized it as the 'bullseye of America's Internet'."
I'm not sure an Ashburn geolocation means much. I've seen other geolocates point to Ashburn, a small town outside Washington, DC
Editing from multiple IP addresses usually isn't considered socking. Incorrect: Editing while logged out in order to mislead: Editing under multiple IP addresses, or editing under both a named account and as an IP, when done deceptively or otherwise violating the principles of this policy, may be treated as the same level of disruption as editing under multiple accounts. Using multiple IPs for false consensus or evading 3RR or anything like that is sockpuppetry. —DIYeditor (talk) 17:03, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Indeed, particularly "or otherwise violating the principles of this policy". It completely disputes what you said. In fact, anything that would be sockpuppetry with named accounts could be considered so with IP addresses, from my reading. —DIYeditor (talk) 17:09, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Of course the same person can edit from multiple IP's, as an IP editor is just anyone not logged into an account. It's only a problem if done deceptively. Which is different for multiple accounts being used simultaneously by the same person, where users are expected to make explicit that they belong to the same person, even if there's no overlap in their editing patterns. 149.86.189.197 (talk) 17:24, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
That's not my reading of it. What it says to me is that anything that would be sockpuppetry with named accounts can be construed as such for IP addresses. —DIYeditor (talk) 17:29, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
I mentioned on the talk page two days ago that if you want to challenge a close you're supposed to take it to AN, and he didn't respond. And his last edit there indicates he's not really amenable to discussion. 149.86.189.197 (talk) 15:33, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
This is probably something that went in the wrong direction from the outset. The advice to make a request for closure was probably unhelpful, and the closure was completely inappropriate (basically one user saying "it could have gone either way, so I will impose my personal opinion as Correct"). Yes, the next step could have been to request that the closure be overturned at AN, but dispute resolution might have been a better approach from the beginning. Bringing Levivich's behaviour here was probably unwise as it now focusses attention on the behaviour of all others in that debate: with the best will in the world, it's hard to believe the debate includes as many participants as it does accounts + IP addresses, and it's difficult not to feel there's been some bludgeoning going on. Elemimele (talk) 16:22, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
No it can not be, thats a supervote. The closer can do absolutely nothing novel such as offer their own interpretation of guidelines and precedent. If they want to do that they need to comment, not close. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
This was already discussed at the closer's talk page, where he explained that guidelines are explicitly a factor in determining WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS, and that some arguments in the discussion were based on blatant misinterpretations of the guidelines. 149.86.189.197 (talk) 17:01, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
there's no reason to get aggressive with me for absolutely no reason (emphasis added). Well, I guess we can't argue with that logic. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 23:55, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Are you 149.86.189.197? Because that is not Voorts' comment... And what 149.86.189.197 said is some of the most incompetent bullshit I've ever seen. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:11, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
@Rhododendrites: you deleted your comment, but it mentioned that this is some kind of joke. Using Wikipedia to make jokes is disruptive editing and there's a template for warning about it. If there is some kind of joke being made, let's look at warning or blocking the people doing that. —DIYeditor (talk) 17:24, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
First of all, the template isn't for warning about "making jokes", but rather for "making joke edits". There's a huge difference. Beyond that, to be disruptive something has to interfere with Wikipedia's mission of informing and educating (or whatever it is we're doing here). Humor, even in an article, that doesn't interfere with that goal isn't disruptive. And in many or most cases well-wrought humor actively promotes the project's goals by increasing the reader's pleasure in reading. Now I'm going to stick this right in your face by telling you that there are three (at least) intentionally amusing turns of the phrase, or verbal juxtaposition, in Sacred Cod: "red herring"; "natural habitat"; "stepladder". (There might be more but I can't bring them to mind.) Now you tell me why they shouldn't be there. (The article's currently under siege so best to use the permalink I just gave.) EEng01:52, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
No answer, though there's no question you saw this [172]. Huh. Look, here's a few more to make it easier for you: "unusually large florist's box equipped with protruding decoy lilies"; "House perch"; "arranged fracas"; the "Pilfered Cod" poem; "duration of the crisis"; "Sacred cow". Disruptive? NPOV? Explain to me how. Go one. Let's hear it. EEng18:48, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Oh, I see on examination that EEng supports making jokes in Wikivoice in an article. That's not a lion's den I wish to delve into considering how popular EEng is. —DIYeditor (talk) 17:38, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Excuse me, but I do not support "making jokes " in Wikivoice in an article. I do support enjoyable writing that may bring a smile to reader's face now and then. EEng01:52, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
True enough. To me, {{uw-joke1}} through {{uw-joke4}} are common sense interpretations of policy and not seriously disputed by anyone. Nobody should be intentionally making jokes in a Wikipedia article. That could be confusing to a reader and is unprofessional. —DIYeditor (talk) 17:46, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Popularity was not a factor in my mentioning EEng. I don't know him personally (I believe that I live on a different continent), and sometimes agree with him and sometimes not. I just mentioned him because, in this case, he made a comment that I agreed with. This seems like very large mountains have been made out of very small molehills. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:52, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
If I'm warning new editors for making jokes with standard templates, shouldn't the same apply to any editor? There's leeway in talk pages and user space, but I don't see why experienced or popular editors should get a pass to violate things that templates warn against.
I also wanted to add that recounting a joke for illustration or even humor is not what I would call making a joke. Recounting is ok in an article, having the text of the article be a joke is not ok. If the distinction makes sense. —DIYeditor (talk) 17:56, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Gilbert Kerr (right) plays the bagpipesThis was such a great joke and it fills me with sadness to know that there are people out there who would volunteer their time to remove it. Seriously, the world is such a dark place, I cannot fathom why, why anyone would want to extinguish joy. If it puts a smile on someone's face, even if it's not your face, and is otherwise harmless, just leave it be. We need all the smiles we can gather. Levivich (talk) 18:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Okay, that was indeed a great joke and should've been kept. But there is a line between "puts smiles on people's faces" and "risks confusing new readers", and self-links in what is supposed to be a purely informative section (See Also) risk falling into the second category. If everything might just be a hidden joke, it becomes hard for readers to take the encyclopedia seriously (unlike your example, where the joke doesn't actually add any misleading information). ChaotıċEnby(t · c)18:11, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Sorry for the misunderstanding, that makes it a little more clear but it's still not ideal, people might just read it and not realize that's already the article title, especially since several have close titles (e.g. Self-reference). ChaotıċEnby(t · c)18:22, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
What you're describing is people not getting the joke; that would be harmless in my view. (Same as people not understanding the "(right)" in the caption.) But I think it's a stretch to imagine that people might not know the title of the article they're reading. It's right at the top of the page even when they scroll down, in giant font. I think pretty much everyone will "get" the "main article" for "other examples" being the same article, given that it's about self-referential humor. And if they click on it, they'll be taken to the same place. (Someone on the talk page made a good point that the link target should be the "Other jokes" subsection and not just the article, to make it truly self-referential.) Levivich (talk) 18:26, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
The article title is not "right at the top of the page" when people scroll down for everyone, that is only the case on specific skins, on specific platforms. Making the link point to the "Other jokes" subsection would be a big improvement, as people won't be sent at a completely different place in the name of a joke. ChaotıċEnby(t · c)18:47, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
The problem is that not everyone will "get" a joke and this can lead to confusion. This is contrary to the purpose of Wikipedia in my view. I know this isn't the Simple English Wikipedia, but we have readers of different levels of intelligence and cultural/linguistic context. —DIYeditor (talk) 18:13, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Not everyone will "get" any joke. That's not a problem. Because not everyone will smile, no one should smile? That's not my philosophy. Levivich (talk) 18:14, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
What if someone got a smile from inserting subtle Polish jokes in Polish people? It might even be a Polish person who thinks it is amusing, but that does not mean everyone will. I think we should have a principle and stick to it. —DIYeditor (talk) 18:20, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Harm is also subjective. Many of the most often retold and funniest Jewish jokes were coined by Jewish comedians. Hardly hate speech. To get to my point, it is that inserting a joke in Wikivoice is fundamentally inserting the editor's own voice and perspective, which is to me a violation of NPOV, and perhaps other policies. —DIYeditor (talk) 18:45, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Any choice of words or expression or ordering of material, any image, any quotation, anything, could potentially violate various policies. The question is whether they actually do. inserting a joke in Wikivoice is fundamentally inserting the editor's own voice and perspective – why is that necessarily so? You're just saying that. EEng19:36, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Well that's the issue. If the role of Wikipedia is to inform people, jokes that might get a smile from a few people but confuse a few other people aren't helpful. In, say, a webcomic, where humor is to be expected, a joke that some people might get but not others is absolutely acceptable (and to be expected, honestly). In something like Wikipedia, where people go expecting information (at least in wikivoice) rather than jokes, it is more distracting than anything. ChaotıċEnby(t · c)18:25, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Yeah, I just don't agree with equating the benefit of making someone smile, with the supposed detriment of momentary confusion. I will trade 1 smile for 1 momentary confusion any day of the week. Levivich (talk) 18:28, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
If Wikipedia worked on this principle, we'd have virtually no encyclopedic value pretty soon. "It's okay to confuse people if it's funny" is pretty clearly WP:NOT. ChaotıċEnby(t · c)18:30, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
You can make the same slippery slope claim about allowing anyone to edit. "All or nothing" is poor logic, every time. It's possible to have some jokes without having too many jokes, even if some of the jokes are bad and should be removed, it doesn't mean no jokes. Just like even though some edits are bad and need to be removed, it doesn't mean we should stop all edits. "Slippery slope" is poor logic because it can be applied to any situation at any time. Levivich (talk) 18:35, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
This is not the "slippery slope" argument, I am arguing against the principle itself. "Slippery slope" refers to extending the principle further than its current bounds, here, I am talking about applying the same principle, in its current bounds, all across Wikipedia. If all articles have potentially confusing meta-jokes like this one, Wikipedia will be more confusing. ChaotıċEnby(t · c)18:44, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
We do not have to worry about all articles having jokes as there are almost 7 million articles. If any part of your argument involves articles other than the one article at issue here, it's a slippery-slope argument. An argument that if we allow this joke here, we also would have to allow that joke there, is a slippery-slope argument: as you said, extending the principle further than its current bounds (which is one article). Levivich (talk) 18:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Index page to 'Dr Bentley'. @Levivich: This faux index is from 1698 and takes the piss out of its subject. Mightily. ('Dr Bentley—His singular humanity to—foreigners—p.14' is particularly on the nose...) ——Serial19:41, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
(after edit conflict) I believe that Samuel Johnson's dictionary of English contained a joke. That doesn't stop it being a serious work. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:46, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Again, you're strawmanning my argument. I'm not saying that anything containing jokes isn't a serious work, I'm saying that the jokes introduced here are potentially confusing and do not have encyclopedic value. ChaotıċEnby(t · c)18:48, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Please don't make me look up what the joke was to show that it's relevant, being confusing to the easily confused. I have to go and cook dinner now. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:00, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
(1) "Lexicographer - A writer of dictionaries; a harmless drudge, that busies himself in tracing the original, and detailing the signification of words." (2) "Oats - A grain, which in England is generally given to horses, but in Scotland supports the people." - Samuel Johnson. Neither joke detracts from the seriousness. Narky Blert (talk) 10:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
I can't find it now, but I distinctly remember, when the penguin joke hubbub was happening, someone wrote something somewhere (helpful citation, I know) compiling examples of the long history of jokes in reference works, including serious print encyclopedias of yesteryear. (The Samuel Johnson dictionary was on the list.) Levivich (talk) 19:01, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Hi! I've change my mind after thinking a little more about it, I think I agree with you now, introducing one self-referential joke into an article isn't equivalent to saying all articles should be riddled in incomprehensible jokes. And, as my username, it's good to embrace a little bit of chaos and whimsy occasionally! ChaotıċEnby(t · c)19:30, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
And even if they don’t get a joke like the penguin one, the most it will do is cause them to wonder for a moment why we felt the need to point out which one was the piper; no harm caused, and for the rest it brings a little joy to their life. BilledMammal (talk) 18:17, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
I'm still sad that something adorable and with no risk of confusion at all, like the penguin joke, got removed, but that potentially confusing self-referential links are kept under the same principles. ChaotıċEnby(t · c)18:27, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
The only people likely to be confused by the self-reference link are the ones who are confused by the entire concept of self-reference. They are exactly the people for whom including this in the article is likely to be the most helpful, because their confusion should be a signpost to their enlightenment. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:27, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Honestly, it would've been better for an uninvolved administrator to do it, rather than one arguing on the opposite side of the discussion. ChaotıċEnby(t · c)18:51, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Comment: I closed the referenced discussion here. After the close, several editors came to my talk page, and after discussion, I declined to undo my close. Levivich undoing my close without discussing it with me, and for the sole reason that it was not an RfC (which would be news to folks who close non-RfCs at CR) is completely inappropriate. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Other editors had already tried that. An AN appeal would have been feeding the troll. Tbh, I was hoping that in reviewing the total circumstances, you would have come to see that the close should have been undone, because it constituted feeding a troll, among other problems. Levivich (talk) 20:26, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
I don't see how you read that discussion and see trolling. Editors engaged in PAG-based arguments and then one of them requested a close. I obliged and closed the discussion. Overriding that process, and then deleting !votes because you think that one person was trolling is not cool. I have restored my close and you can bring it to AN if you want a close review. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:47, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Well I've unrestored your close. At this point it would be best for you to recognize that at LOT of experienced editors find it was inappropriate, and step back. EEng01:52, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
And as an experienced editor, you should know that the reason we have close reviews is so that several involved editors can't decide that they're going to overturn a close outcome that they don't like without broader community input. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:21, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
And as an inexperienced editor, you need to stop playing eager beaver and closing discussion's on issues you don't understand. You're not going to get to be an admin this way, trust me. EEng18:51, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
AN/I is for addressing disruption and getting admin eyes on things that need attention ASAP, not for publicly insulting editors acting in good faith. We are all here to build an encyclopedia. I'm a reasonable person and if you have criticisms of me, I'd appreciate that they be constructive. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:49, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for telling me what ANI is for, editor-with-literally-one-fifteenth-the-experience-I-have! My criticism was completely constructive: I told you to stop closing discussions on issues you don't understand, and someone's just gone to your talk page to reinforce that point. But instead of taking that on board, you're fishing at Talk:Closure requests for a "peer review". You've already got your peer review right here in this thread: you screwed up. Now, everyone screws up sometimes, but not everyone keeps denying it despite clear evidence. EEng21:57, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
The thread is not an RFC and should never have been closed. And it should have never been listed at WP:CR. If someone wants to establish an official consensus, they are free to create an RFC about including the link. Softlavender (talk) 05:09, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, that was bad advice. He should have suggested a formal RFC. RFCs tend to be a more orderly survey plus separate discussion, and closers can generally see through any BS or socking; plus someone could note to the closing admin if an IP-hopper was posting multiple votes, or canvassing or something of that nature was occurring. Softlavender (talk) 07:29, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
That is absolutely not true. Non-RfC discussions can be and are routinely closed. Sometimes that's all you need to establish consensus amongst editors having a conflict, and RFCBEFORE makes clear that all alternatives should be tried before opening an RfC. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:17, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
SL didn't say non-RfCs are never closed; they said this particular discussion should never have been closed. Please pay attention. EEng18:55, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
The discussion had petered out on the 8th. It was listed at CR on the 20th, in the section for non-RfC closures. (If only RfCs can be closed, why does that section exist?) On the 29th, three weeks after the last contribution to the discussion, Levivich decided to reopen it, ostensibly because he didn't agree with the outcome. I don't see how DENY is pertinent without evidence that comments were disruptive or made in bad faith, and I find it disingenuous to use WP:RBI as justification for deleting talk page comments without reporting the editor who made them, or at least indicating who the LTA behind them is (there should have been some effort at satisfying the "B" in RBI). Now the discussion has been re-closed, and re-opened again. And yet no editor has started an RfC there despite the lack of one having supposedly been the root of the problem all along.
So the Troll Goal is to sew sow discord amongst editors, sometimes, as here, by taking a kernel of a content dispute and inflaming it. My goal was to stop that, so I hate to see this ANI thread reaping discord. Now that socks have been blocked and the content is being discussed by good faith editors on the talk page, perhaps an {{atop}} is in order? Levivich (talk) 00:24, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Latest comment: 10 months ago5 comments4 people in discussion
Over the last year I and other editors have tried to get @GoutComplex to understand how to use sources and what kind of sources are appropriate on Wikipedia. These interventions can be seen on GoutComplex's talk page.
I recently had to revert two edits by GoutComplex, which I think illustrate the problem. The first was on the article for Ancestor veneration in China. His edit reads: Ancestors and the Mandate of Heaven were thought to emanate from the Dao, especially in the Song dynasty.[173] This claim is supported with a citation from page 272 of the book Empires of the Steppes: A History of the Nomadic Tribes Who Shaped Civilization by Kenneth W. Harl. The relevant section on that page reads: This emperor Taizu, the third to take the name in the tenth century, imposed unity over southern China and forged an imperial order based on Neo-Confucian precepts.45 He aimed to break the power of the Tang regional elites who had monopolized office and ruled as regional hereditary dukes (li). Civilian bureaucrats henceforth were chosen by merit upon passing an examination system based on the Confucian classics . The wide dissemination of block printing of Confucian classics enabled many men of humbler origin to study the texts, pass the examinations, and so enter imperial service.46 Mandarin officials from the highest to lowest levels shared a set of philosophical precepts that put correct rule (zheng) at a premium. All were expected to master the canonical texts in order to achieve harmony with the way (dao), especially the proper conduct and veneration of the ancestors. The source does not say that ancestors and/or the mandate of heaven "emanate[d] from the Dao", nor does it say this phenomenon was particular to the Song dynasty.
The second edit was on the article for Taoism, which reads:
Chinese Manichaeism took inspiration from Taoism throughout both of their histories as well as forms of Buddhism, including Chinese Buddhism.[174]
This edit cited page 231 in the same book by Harl. That page reads: The faith, while an imperially recognized religion in China, never won over a Chinese emperor. Many Chinese would have viewed Manichaeism as a pale imitation of Buddhism or Daoism, the two most popular faiths among the Chinese masses. Manichaeism, just like Judaism for the Khazars, offered an advantage that it was not the faith of a neighboring imperial rival, but this advantage was likely a benefit rather than a reason for the kaghan’s conversion. Again, the source does not at all back up the claim being made in the edit.
Harl is a scholar, and while he is not an expert on China, his sources are standard English-language secondary works on Chinese history. While this is an improvement on GoutComplex's previous use of poor quality sources, the discrepancies between what is claimed in his edits and what actually is contained in his sources are disturbing. Finally, Harl's book is not on Daoism nor Chinese ancestor worship, so it is a poor choice of source for claims on those subjects.
Many of GoutComplex's edits have been reverted by other users, and it takes time to check his sources to see if they back up his claims. I am not confident that GoutComplex is able to produce encyclopaedic content that is properly grounded in reliable sources. I would note that a week ago GoutComplex added a citation to a book titled History of Art: The Western Tradition to a section on ethics in the article for Stoicism,[175] so unfortunately I don't see any sign of improvement. Retinalsummer (talk) 01:01, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
GoutComplex—it's clear you know how to read and reply on talk pages, but you have only ever made one reply to feedback on your talk page. Is it not rude to ignore the detailed, personalised feedback you have been given by volunteers who have had to put in a lot of work to correct your mistakes? — Bilorv (talk) 11:21, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
I second the comments by Retinalsummer. My first interaction with GoutComplex was in October, when they edited Anglo-Saxons, History of Anglo-Saxon England and Saxons referencing an anthology of 19th-century literature and were reverted by myself and two other users. I explained on their talk page that a book about the 19th century is not a good source for a statement about medieval history and was disappointed that they did not reply to my advice or to most of the other messages left for them.
4 and 5 October edits with poor quality sources
On 4 October GoutComplex made 19 edits referenced to the History of the World by Jeremy Black (not listed). On 5 October they made 6 edits based on The Economics Book and The Literature Book (see website).
Looking at recent edits I see that on 24 December they made 12 edits between 20:50 and 22:02, sourced to History of Art: The Western Tradition. The edits relate to ancient Greece or Egypt, where a book on the history of art in general is generally not as reliable as one on ancient Greece or Egypt. An edit to Stoicism has already been mentioned.
The first edit [176] is to Mycenaean religion, where the existing sources are works on ancient Greece, so adding a source about general art history for a fact about religion does not improve the article.
The one article about a work of art edited is Pergamon Altar, [177]. The text added is H. A. Groenewegen-Frankfort and Bernard Ashmole wrote that they were certain that the Greeks who used the altar did not believe in the reality of the events depicted on it, and that the art on the altar was based on previously told myths popular in Pergamon. The source says For sheer skill in carving, for the size of the figures, and for the quantity of sculpture it is unsurpassed and when one considers the technical knowledge and the thought that must have been devoted to it the result is pitiable. It is like a mythological dictionary: all the facts are there, but it is empty of life; and this, since almost every figure is in violent action, is not a little surprising. Lack of belief is the reason . For artists of the Archaic period, the beings depicted were real; in the Classical period there might have been some suspension of belief, but the scenes had at least some symbolic meaning and were essentially if not literally true. Now even this seems to have evaporated: the events depicted, though with dramatic bravura, have clearly never taken place: the beings have never existed. - H. A. Groenewegen - Frankfort and Bernard Ashmole Art of the Ancient World. followed by The powerful characterization of the three main styles of Greek sculpture, given above, does not hide their preference for Archaic and Classical art.[1] The edit misrepresents the source as it changes an argument from artistic quality into a statement of the authors' certainty. The source also does not say that the altar was based on myths popular in Pergamon. TSventon (talk) 02:30, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
@TSventon To add another layer to the last example you provide, it does not sound like the authors of The Western Tradition are presenting that quote as something to be accepted uncritically. …does not hide their preference for Archaic and Classical art is the textbook suggesting that Groenewegen-Frankfort and Ashmole have a bias which colors their judgment, something which did not influence GoutComplex in their use of the material. It's not good practice to include a source text and ignore the context provided by the book that's quoting it. ManuelKomnenos (talk) 02:54, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
References
^Janson, Horst Woldemar; Janson, Anthony F. (2004). Touborg, Sarah; Moore, Julia; Oppenheimer, Margaret; Castro, Anita (eds.). History of Art: The Western Tradition. Vol. 1 (Revised 6th ed.). Upper Saddle River, New Jersey: Pearson Education. p. 159. ISBN0-13-182622-0.
Update. Edits with poor quality sources continue,[178][179] and the editor has yet to respond. The claim in the most recent edit was that the Japanese flag symbolizes Amaterasu, which was supported by this statement in the source (a book called Don't Know Much About Mythology: Everything You Need to Know About the Greatest Stories in Human History but Never Learned): Banned for three years during the postwar American occupation of Japan, the country’s “rising sun” flag is a vestige of the old connection between Japan—or Nipon, which means “rising sun”—and the sun goddess. Not only does the source not support the claim, but the source is another popular general knowledge book rather than a work by a specialist in the field. In the Kami page, GoutComplex added a claim about kami that used Australia's ABC News as a source.[180] This and other additions had to be reverted.[181]. GoutComlpex had previously added this source to the page for Yokai back in July.[182] Again, it is clear to me that this editor does not understand how to use sources and is unwilling to learn. Retinalsummer (talk) 13:46, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
The biography of Sangram Singh, an Indian 'wrestler, actor, and motivational speaker' came to my attention some time back as being poorly written, poorly sourced, and unduly promotional. While I've endeavoured to rectify the worst of it, this has proven somewhat difficult, due largely to the efforts of User:StarFish2022, who has repeatedly restored such content, or added similarly-worded promotional content. Given the promotional editing, and the fact that other than an abortive effort to create an article on an investment company (which seems to have failed through lack of demonstrated notability), StarFish2022 has made no edits to any other article, I recently posted the BLP Introduction to contentious topics template on their talk page, and left a message drawing attention to the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest guideline, and asked whether they had any connection with the article subject. [183]. This drew no immediate response, and since the problematic editing continued, I left another message on their talk page further advising them of relevant policies, asking them to use the article talk page rather than continued adding the contested material, and once again asking as to whether there was a conflict of interest. [184]
StarFish2022's only response to this is to today add even more improperly-sourced and badly-written promotional content, [185], and to send me an email where they state that "the edits I am doing is said by himself to post the edits so please don't remove it." This appears to me to be a clear admission to be editing on Singh's behalf, and given the apparent refusal to acknowledge Wikipedia policy (or inability to understand it, which has functionally the same consequences), I thus ask that StarFish2022 be blocked from editing the Sangram Singh article. What further action, if any, that needs to be taken will probably depend on any explanation StarFish2022 offers as to their connection with Singh. Given StarFish2022's behaviour, the subject matter, and apparent evidence of past promotional editing (see the article talk page), it seems entirely possible that undeclared paid editing may involved, in contradiction to WMF terms of use: if this is the case, further sanctions will clearly be needed. I will of course inform StarFish2022 of this thread, and would advise them to take careful note of relevant policy before responding here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:13, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Changes made better represent the historical reality of the region at the time. Suggesting the region was named Palestine would not be historical correct since the region was only named as such by the Roman Empire in the 2nd century CE. ([186]) is WP:DUCK to a banned user. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:28, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Evidence: Removing the name "Palestine", not the name of the region until 132 CE as Syria Palestina. Have put this page forward for a protection request due to an edit war and use of the name Palestine for polemic, rather than historical, reasons ([187]).
And This page was edited to say "Palestine" as a political statement. The name Palestine did not apply to the region until 132CE, when it was changed by the Romans. The name of the province was Judea. This page should be locked to prevent further edits for political points ([188]).
Latest comment: 11 months ago21 comments7 people in discussion
Reported user blocked indef, but unrelated (?) to that, the OP (FlightTime) is formally warned against WP:EW and WP:BITE. IP editors are not lesser than veteran editors, the latter of which do not get special exemptions or allowances due to their tenure or for any other non-policy reason. El_C15:38, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'be blocked for two weeks. Perhaps in that time Baraniscool will come to realize that they need to communicate with editors raising valid concerns regarding their edits.-- Ponyobons mots21:22, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
FlightTime You've also disrupted these related articles. I see you were also edit warring without communication on Fat Old Sun (an article I have been fixing up at the moment and improving sourcing), so you deserve at least an admonishment if not some other WP:BOOMERANG-based sanction. As I write, Machine Head (album) says it was released on 31 March 1972, but the infobox says it was released on 25 March 1972. Which is it? And this is supposed to be a good article. Can you please fix your errors? Ritchie333(talk)(cont)12:56, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
Note: @FlightTime has also been warned very recently about edit warring and being disruptive on other articles as discussed at El C's talk page. This appears to be, at the very least, a recent pattern. --ARoseWolf13:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
I think FlightTime has been almost but not been quite disruptive for some time, but I can't remember a (recent) time they had sanction-worthy behaviour, always stopping short of it. I do recall blocking them once years ago, but it was reversed as being draconian. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)18:54, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
@Ponyo and Ritchie333: as linked by ARoseWolf above (live, permalink), the brazen expectation on FlightTime's part that they are owed special treatment in an edit war, and their immediate attack against myself when I obviously declined this — that's concerning to me. Concern which I believe FlightTime needs to address. Since, if this is their modus operandi, it's a serious issue. El_C16:49, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Briefly: I'm unimpressed with FlightTime's response to this (including the utter failure to address any of my notes), but I'm writing in haste, so I'll leave this comment as placeholder and will return to this soon (probably a few days). In the meantime, non-admins need to stop trying to archive this report. Twice is enough. And though the first time was understandable, this latest (2nd) one most certainly is not. What are you doing, Mattdaviesfsic? Are you even reviewing the threads that you're WP:NAC-archiving? Anyway, I highlighted No, not resolved above, so hopefully, we can avoid a 3rd NAC. El_C09:21, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Sincere apologies if that was wrong in retrospect, but in fairness, the thread has been open for 9 days, and as I closed it the last comment was 2-3 days ago (which in my mind says "done and dusted"). Not only that but the first close/archive was not my doing - that was Softlavender - which I never saw in any case. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 09:52, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Maybe leave clerking to uninvolved admins if you are unable to correctly review threads at the admin noticeboard. There is no clock and if the thread remains open for a couple more weeks, so be it. That is not your call to make. El_C10:01, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
I never closed the thread. FlightTime marked it "resolved" on 21:21 21 December [189], and I one-click moved it to the archive at 03:09 24 December [190], as there had been no activity on the thread for a day a half and the question about FlightTime had been responded to by Ritchie333 without further response. I was fine with El C reviving it and marking it not resolved, and I thanked him via the thank button [191]. I agree that Mattdaviesfsic should not be closing or archiving threads when they are clearly not resolved. Softlavender (talk) 03:53, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Not sure, but no, it has not run its course. But it still gonna be a day or two till I'm more available. If there is a pattern of FlightTime not only edit warring, but edit warring with extra-WP:BITE against IP editors (as shown in the link I gave above), then that needs to be addressed and remedied. Them stonewalling me here falls short, in my view. El_C11:35, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
I've checked FlightTime's edits for the past week or so since I saw the edit-warring as reported above. They stopped edit-warring then and I've not seen any sanction-worthy behaviour since that time. Ritchie333(talk)Iam(cont)14:04, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
That's your metric? A single week? I mean, I get you might wanna get on their good side, but I, at least, am not intimidated by their aggression.El_C15:08, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
On further thought, I'll strike that and close with a formal warning. FlightTime might have chosen to ignore me here, but if it is found, in a few weeks or months, that they are violating WP:BITE and WP:EW—regardless if they also attack admins who stand against that misconduct—sanctions will come into effect. El_C15:38, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Latest comment: 11 months ago25 comments8 people in discussion
Good-faith errors identified and acknowledged, rollback voluntarily handed back. The signature issue is/was trivia but fwiw is also resolved. Time to move along. -- Euryalus (talk) 19:31, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Notwithstanding a largely constructive interest in page patrol and reverting vandalism, there are a lot of sloppy judgment calls, mostly the result of haste and apparent lack of discernment--see the thread I've opened at their talk page [192]. My introduction was here [193], followed by an automated warning. Part of what's troubling is that a week later, they're defending the restoration of unsourced WP:BLP fluff [194], presumably after reading edit summaries here [195]. At any event, continuing to defend this is a red flag. Subsequent edits of interest include [196]--again, defended at their talk page with "the edit changed the name of a person with no source, is that also normal?"; entering disruptive arenas and making the wrong reversions without doing research [197]; [198]; reverting a good faith talk page self-edit [199]; kneejerk reversions of editing in progress at a draft [200] with correction [201]; restoring unsourced WP:BLP violation [202]; proper reversion of unsourced trivia [203] followed by restoration of same [204]; quick to react here, without explanation [205], [206]; again, reacting too quickly and without explanation [207], [208]; I don't know why this was reverted and the editor warned [209]; restoring unsourced WP:BLP ethnic designation [210].
I've looked at several dozen edits out of over 2,000. At any rate, I question the granting of rollback privilege today, and more generally, the continued use of anti-vandalism tools without more evidence of awareness of the road conditions. Too many edits, too quickly and without deliberation over article history and context. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 22:18, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Hello,
I appreciate your feedback, and that of the community, please take into account that quick decisions can be the result of misunderstood edits. Please also take into account that many of my reverts were fine. I would appreciate comments/questions.
Alright, here's a comment: that is a lot of bad edits. Your goal cannot be to have "many" of your reverts be fine. It must be that ALL of your reverts are sound. If you are regularly churning out bad edits, then you need to be hands off on things like rollback or tools until such time as you demonstrate that you can exercise the judgment and care for errors to be very rare. Ravenswing 22:44, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Geardona, if "quick decisions" are causing you to make a lot of serious errors, then the solution is to slow down, ponder the situation with more care, and make your edit only when you are highly confident that it improves the encyclopedia. This applies especially to biographies of living people where editors are obligated to get things right. Removing vast swathes of unreferenced BLP content is often a good move. By restoring that unreferenced content, you are giving your personal endorsement of the accuracy of that content, and should be adding references to the reliable sources that you used to verify that content. If you cannot verify unreferenced content, then do not restore it. Cullen328 (talk) 22:51, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
That's not much of a plus when the warnings are erroneous. I suggest someone other than me take some time to look over their edit history. I haven't given much attention to everything prior to December 25. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 22:59, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
I've been going through their contribution history and many of the reverts are appropriate. The pace is awfully rapid though, so Geardona should definitely slow down and be more cautious. Most of the reverts are to IP edits; IPs make a lot of useful and constructive edits as well, often fixing some other editor's malicious changes, so except for obvious vandalism, it's better to check the validity of a change before undoing it. Schazjmd(talk)23:04, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Geardona, Even while this discussion is ongoing you are continuing to make bad reverts. This revert [212] has no basis in policy, plot sections of articles do not require sources per WP:PLOTSOURCE.
Incorrectly reverting edits is really harmful to the project - it upsets good faith editors, results in vandalism and bad edits being reinstated, and can remove useful content. You need to be getting these reverts near 100% correct. If you want to continue recent changes patrolling you should slow down and focus on reverting blatant vandalism. Before trying to revert edits based on more complex ideas (like WP:V or WP:RS) you probably need to spend some more time learning policy and how editing works (ideally by writing some article content), because it appears that you are attempting to police other people's edits without really understanding how things are supposed to be done. 86.23.109.101 (talk) 23:03, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Alright, are we done with this? I don't want rollback anymore, I will go do something other than RCP. Happy?
Geardona, your signature could give new editors the impression that you are part of a formal appointed Tech Support team. Please could you change it? NebY (talk) 23:29, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Have removed rollback per this thread and this request. They've acknowledged the feedback in requesting removal of the tool, so we might be on the way to calling this resolved. -- Euryalus (talk) 23:28, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Happy to see this close, with one addendum: Geardona is understandably concerned for their editing status, and would like to move on to other pastures. But I see little concern for the users they've templated, or an effort to revert misbegotten warnings. 2601:19E:4180:6D50:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 02:42, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Alright, what needs to happen, revert all of my templates, (or just nuke my contribs) at this point I’ve had enough of this and would like to put it behind me as fast as possible. Thank you, Geardona (talk) 03:36, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
I have had enough of this ani stuff, I now want to fix it and put it behind me. Now, what do you want me to do about the templates? Geardona (talk) 03:56, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The rumors that I am out to delete everything started after I nominated user User:Greg L's page and subpage [213] for deletion as WP:FAKEARTICLE. I was too focused on the policy versus the human, it was ill-received in the discussion and I have not made any similar action in the future and have kept professionalism to a maximum since then. This subsequent rumor has gotten out of control for me, involving a network of users, which is why I am researching and uploading this post.
I have informed the editors per the talk page notice.
Subsequent to that, Greg L has been exclusively editing pages related to me since 10 days and makes rumor-spreading posts about me on other peoples pages like calling me "single-purpose editor" [214], with little basis in my edits. History of Greg L: [215]
Editor MLee1957 intervenes, like he did in his previous dispute that led to creation of the fake article. Those two conflicts are the only history of edits by MLee1957. History of MLee1957: [216]
Coordinated and very similar posts in different places (contribution history has a more exhaustive list):
MLee1957: "A company that delivers critical electricity to thousands of customers is far more notable than some random Dairy Queen" [217]
Greg L: "many thousands of users is far-cry from some random Dairy Queen or “Al’s Tire-O-Rama” in nearby Belcourt on State Route 10. A utility seems reasonably notable to me" [218]
Greg L raises a "motion" to end the AfD early [219]. I was not even the one who started it, rather it was started by another editor after the PROD was undone by MLee1957.
I presonally made the mistake of renominating this discussion right after it was closed as no consensus with no prejudice, due to ignorance of what "no prejudice" means exactly. The discussion was speedy-closed, again, after participation from Greg L and MLee1957.
For the next 10 days, all of his edits except one consist in:
Undoes uncontroversial redirect or merge maintenance actions I performed (random changes, small, old abandoned articles which do not pass standalone notability):
In general, I would like to note that User:A. B.'s posts about me on his talk page are really condescending. (User talk:A. B.) I would also like to note history of bigoted comments towards South Asian editors reading up on his talk page, telling someone "In particular, only add content that is unambiguously referenced by a source whose reliability will be obvious to non-South Asian, non-Muslim and non-Hindu editors. Leave no ambiguity to be exploited.". [238]
For the record:
I take this spurious accusation of bigotry seriously. For context, here is the entire exchange to which बिनोद थारू is referring:
This involved a Bangladeshi IP who was being hounded by an Indian editor, Aman.kumar.goel in connection with sectarian disputes. Both turned out to be socks.
@A. B.: No worries; the link Binod provided (repeated here), didn’t even contain the purported verbiage. Such experiences almost makes you want to become a politician in Washington, D.C., where there is a more professional, collegial atmosphere and no one twists your words out of context. Greg L (talk) 03:30, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Their only encounter with me prior were disagreement over standalone notability of journals. [239][240]
After I got reverted, I have since then stopped redirecting or merging journals to lists and assured them of that that, [241] this user now threatened me with a ban for what vaguely is redirect as a merge.[242] This is presumably following comments left by A. B., themselves feeding off the rumors by Greg L.
Finally, I want to seek input to clear up misunderstandings that help fuel this rumor. The misunderstandings are around the policy WP:BLAR requiring a merge tag on the talk page (also I always make my edit comment as "redirect" instead of "merge" in those cases through the merge extension).
Also the definition of uncontroversial which I hold to mean old, small, not stand alone notable, random articles that are not in a network.
I am making this post to help extinguish this rumor about me that I am "out to delete articles" and provide that I can help with article quality maintenance without rumors and threats looming over my head. The cases where my redirects/merges were controversial (Academic Journal), only a revert was sufficient to let me know. More generally after a AfD conversation with BeanieFan11, I have learned it is not useful touching networks of identical articles (like sports events), rather a wider discussion than AfD like RfC or project is needed. I now use the random article button exclusively to edit instead of a chain of posts, as the latter provides an incentive towards bias and misjudgment.
I follow any suggestion of further improvement. I disagree with any punishment towards me because I have only assumed a passive and collaborative role in my editing since 10 days in spite of constant pressure. Expressions being thrown like "the community is tired of you" are inappropriate in light of 10 days of attack posts made on others talk page by Greg L and dogpiling in discussions by closely-related account MLee1957.
For the purpose of stopping this rumor, I am seeking for:
A command to the editor A. B. to stop following my post history and over scrutinizing my posts.
A command to the editors Greg L and MLee1957 to cease all contact with me.
Prevent Randykitty from banning me because that decision is clouded in bias by two previous arguments about academic journal notability and dogpiles on this rumor campaign.
The main thing is user Greg L and quasi-identical user MLee1957 only editing on my pages for 10 days straight and spreading attacks/rumors about me on others people's pages. This led to rumors that I am "out to delete" everything amplifying, and overly scrutinous reverts, ban threats from the users affected.
Action sought as a result of this discussion:
A command to the editor A. B. to stop following my post history and over scrutinizing my posts as a result of rumors.
A command to the editors Greg L and MLee1957 to cease all contact with me.
Prevent Randykitty from banning me because that decision is clouded in bias by two previous arguments about academic journal notability and dogpiles on this rumor campaign.
TL;DR (by someone who has fallen victim to the complainant)
What this is about is User:बिनोद थारू (his first name translates to “Binod”) has a long history (his contributions) of being a single-purpose editor tendentiously deleting articles from Wikipedia. As for his underlying motivation, it appears to be revenge, as evidenced by this permalink of a discussion on his talk page, in response to Admin:Liz, which shows that one of his first contributions to en.Wikipedia got AfD'd: …because my article do not get reviewed or get nominated for deletion like my first one (where you took sides against me I recall).
Since then he’s been a single-purpose editor disrupting Wikipedia by rampantly engaging in deletion of content.
First he was using AfDs. After get a track record of failing on those…
He resorted to PRODs, which require no discussion but are for uncontroversial deletions of content. Obviously, he met push-back on that stunt.
Then he started redirecting articles, but in the process, didn’t transfer any of the material and associated citations from the redirected article to the target article. An example of this was redirecting Riding Facility, Riem to 1972_Summer_Olympics, so when readers are in the Venues section and click the link in this line item: • Riding Facility, Riem – equestrian (jumping individual, eventing cross-country), modern pentathlon (riding) …they were just taken to the top of the article they were on.
He even AfD'd my own user page, talk page, and one of my sandboxes with a very scientific article I’m working on. I have zero idea how he found such obscure places since his edit history shows no interest in science. But that’s how he got on my radar screen and it was obvious that he was annoying large swaths of the wikipedian community by wikilawyering.
In the process, numerous editors, ex-admins, and admins have gone to his talk page to try to get him to desist but he just deletes their comments (look for the negative reds) with edit comments like Remove comment from my talk page that led to a false rumor and Reverted 1 edit by GDX420 (talk): Misinformation. Both Admin:Liz and User:A. B. (and I and many others) have been trying to get Binod to change his ways to no avail.
As for User:MLee1957 being a sockpuppet of some sort, MLee1957 responded to a request for feedback I posted on Talk:Neutron star and appears to have taken an interest in Binod’s activities, as do many others who are impacted by Binod’s behavior. A December 2023 sockpuppet investigation concluded, as regards MLee1957 and myself, that the evidence clearly indicates two people in two separate places. Binod opposes anyone who is pushing back (with the exception of Admin:Liz as Binod knows better) at his objectives.
I’ve told Binod in AfDs that his reasoning for the AfD (lacks citations) is no justification; that’s why we have {{citation needed}} tags. Having been corralled by MLee1957, Liz, A. B., myself, and whoever else he has taken to task here, he has—for the last several days—dedicated himself to simply tagging the blazes out of articles. I can only guess that he finds that unsatisfying and wants to go back to deleting content unimpeded.
I, for one, had no enthusiasm for initiating an ANI on all of Binod’s behavior, which is disruptive to the project, and I suspect the same goes for Liz and A. B. and the many others impacted by having their labors nominated for deletion or simply deleted. But Binod started this ANI, and I figured I’d give you the background here.
The community needs to find a better way to put an end to disruption that doesn’t require truly absurd amounts of time to isolate ourselves from destructive editors who refuse to get the point. I’m a now-retired senior mechanical engineer; I didn’t start this ANI and I have no intention of allowing Binod dictate how I must spend my New Years Day and the several days thereafter.
It occurs to me that if User:बिनोद थारू desires not to have their contributions scrutinized by many other editors, then posting to ANI is not exactly a good way to accomplish that. Beyond the excessive deletionism you discuss, I am seeing a lot of WP:BADNAC warnings on their user talk. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:11, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
In what world is a resolved talk page issue (WP:BADNAC) more worthy of concern than ongoing 10 days of stalking, personal attacks, racism ([243]) and harassment campaigns? बिनोद थारू (talk) 21:19, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
That might be a point if we took you at your word that what these editors were doing was stalking you rather than running around putting out all the fires you have started. And I see nothing obviously racist in your link. Also, for someone who wants to be known as not "out to delete everything", you sure have started a lot of deletion discussions in very recent days. Moving on from deleting all past individual Olympians to deleting whole Olympic events, now? —David Eppstein (talk) 21:30, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Indef बिनोद_थारू with a boomerang for disruptive editing which extends far beyond the behavior behind this report. I have not looked into Greg L's editing, but see no reason to at this time. StarMississippi21:27, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
To enforce बिनोद थारू's decision to quit Wikipedia, I have indefinitely blocked them. If they change their mind, they can appeal, but they will need to address the serious issues that came up in this discussion. Cullen328 (talk) 00:21, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Without undoing all the other edits as well? I doubt it, but the number is only in the 50-100 range, small enough to do individually with some patience. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:18, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
I've looked through the redirects they did and reverted the ones where it seems like there's a chance that the article they redirected is actually notable, or where the information is useful and they failed to merge it. Encourage other editors to look through as well as I may have missed some things. Elli (talk | contribs) 15:41, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
FWIW, I endorse the indef block per the concerns raised above. I especially am concerned about the false sockpuppet accusations that were levied by बिनोद थारू. —Locke Cole • t • c01:20, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
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Latest comment: 11 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Content dispute. This isn't a "chronic and unmanageable behavioral problem". Parties are directed to the talk page (Talk:Siege of Svetigrad) to discuss as required. Please see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution for content dispute resolution procedures. Note that OP is likely to be topic-banned from this article as per a section above ('Dismissed report regarding User:Keremmaarda') in the coming days, unless consensus significantly changes. Daniel (talk) 19:56, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Editor has been making significant wholesale changes, including some slow-moving revert wars for a while now, with not once editing an article talk page. Like, literally, has never edited a talk page. I have indefinitely blocked with a message that makes it clear they can request an unblock at a time when they commit, in writing, to using article talk pages to collaborate about their editing when disputed as per WP:BRD/WP:DR. Talk page message here. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 20:03, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Content dispute. No personal attacks on the pages linked claiming personal attacks (and no diffs provided). Cannot agree that the charge of disrupting to prove a point is obvious from the diffs provided. As this is a content dispute and no evidence of "chronic and unmanageable behavioral problems" have been provided, parties are directed to the article talk page to resolve. If they are unable to resolve between themselves, Wikipedia:Dispute resolution provides direction on content dispute resolution procedures. Daniel (talk) 20:07, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
All I've been doing is to make the page better, and you think I'm owning the page! I properly asked you not to add it to his article because it's already added to Toya Delazy's page, so there's no need for it to be in Rema's. Those outlets you mentioned are only from South Africa, that's why I said no one knew internationally. You reverted all of my edits and some other editors too, that's what I will call owning the page. and if you think I'm wrong look at Wizkid, Davido's article compared to his, and you'll get what I'm saying. The page doesn't also describe his career sequentially, so I make it better but you reverted it. You also said I'm rude, but you've been lessoning me all day, telling me to look at this and that, that I've seen since the day I started editing, that's really rude and it hurts me. Yotrages (talk) 11:10, 2 January 2024
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This user seems to only be here to promote themselves. They have persistently tried to create an article about themselves and it was deleted multiple times and when it was EC salted they moved on to the talk page of said deleted page to continue their self promotion. They do not get the point and just will not stop. I believe they are not here to build an encyclopedia. Seawolf35T--C08:21, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Liz blocked for 72 hours, and judging by their subsequent messages on their talk page, I don't hold out hope that an indefinite block isn't in the immediate future for this person. Daniel (talk) 20:09, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago8 comments5 people in discussion
Nearly all edits by ITZQing (talk·contribs) consist of changing spellings e.g. names of cities in Ukraine. This has included changing Kiev to Kyiv in historical contexts despite the current consensus against this as well as changing Kievan Rus' to Kyivan Rus'. I have had to give them several warnings on their talk page about this and after this edit I gave them one last warning. I see now after this there are still issues with this despite the warnings. They said they use regex to make the edits and some of their edits such as this where they replace all instances of "Odessa" with "Odesa" include altering titles, source names and quotes. Mellk (talk) 06:25, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Comment: They are basically involved in an edit war with consensus. This is pretty clearly NOTHERE, but a block until there is an understanding or a tban might work. While some of their edits conform to consensus, the purpose of this account seems to be to forcably overturn a clear consensus they don't agree with. I think the info on their userpage also indicates they have no intention of working within consensus. // Timothy :: talk06:55, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Their other changes are fine but they are not careful enough with this that it is causing some disruption. Mellk (talk) 07:10, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
My editing is period-specific, including the years in which the character (if this is a biography) lived. But there are many pages that need to be edited, and there will be mistakes in the process, so I will not interfere with others checking me, and I also hope that the wrong edits can be fixed. Alexei (talk) 08:31, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
The above is from ITZQing signing as Alexei. I left a warning at user talk that there must be no more changes to place names without a link to a discussion showing consensus for the change. According to the comments above (which I haven't investigated), a significant number of changes are against consensus. That would be very disruptive and is not the way Wikipedia works. Johnuniq (talk) 08:47, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
When there are pages that require heavy editing (older spellings, such as brand spellings "Ukrayinska Pravda" to "Ukrainska Pravda") where do discussions need to happen? Or ask the administrator to do it? Alexei (talk) 09:07, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
The general procedure is to start at the relevant article talk page. I guess that would be Talk:Ukrainska Pravda where there could be a proposal to find all "Ukrayinska Pravda" in articles and change them to "Ukrainska Pravda", with a couple of example links to articles where that would occur. You would want to first start with Special:WhatLinksHere/Ukrayinska Pravda and propose to change those. It looks like there could be well over a thousand articles given User:ITZQing#Regex for search. In that case, a proposal at WP:VPR would be more appropriate since it would get more attention. If consensus agreed with certain changes, the next step would be to ask for assistance at WP:BOTREQ. Johnuniq (talk) 10:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
And, to follow on Johnuniq's comments, if you can NOT obtain consensus following a conversation, that doesn't mean to go ahead and make the edits anyway. That means to walk away from the article, and accept that consensus is against you. Ravenswing 22:09, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Death Editor 2 and Nagorno-Karabakh conflict (again)
Third change again after failing to get consensus on talk page discussion [265]
Fourth change today again after failing to get consensus on talk page discussion [266]
The talk page discussion shows this has been opposed by multiple editors, a consensus has not been reached to change the article. This is an area covered by three ARBs – E-E, Infoboxes, and A-A.
Previously Death Editor 2 problems in AE areas include:
and their talk page [267] shows a history of problems.
The above is for an account only ~8 months old, with 1,413 edits.
Their previous account User talk:Death editor shows similar problems and should be considered.
I've rv't this twice (November 12, 2023 [268] and December 23, 2023 [269]), five weeks apart but someone else can rv them this time, either way this conduct in an 3xAE area needs to be resolved. // Timothy :: talk05:25, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
'Political disputes over borders and refugees between Armenia and Azerbaijan may persist, and another war could break out between them - but not over Nagorno-Karabakh. There the dispute was between Artsakh and Azerbaijan. Artsakh no longer exists and all of Nagorno-Karabakh is under the undisputed control of Azerbaijan. Sources and consensus reflect this - there are six or seven other editors who have weighed in against you now. Sorry you just don't like it' -@PrimaPrime. You are entirely alone in your opinion that the conflict is somehow ongoing and you are engaged in a frankly bizarre campaign to keep the article that away. Your own sources say it ended, the other editors say it ended, it's just you and only you. Death Editor 2 (talk) 16:46, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Currently @MarcusTraianus: has made significant undiscussed changes, including restoring the previous content Death Editor was blocked for without attempting meaningful discussion on talk page or DR.
They posted Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh conflict#Is the conflict over? so they are aware this is a CTopic and that this change is being discussed/disputed and another editor @KhndzorUtogh: objected (see four messages on talk [270]) and reverted the changes lacking consensus [271], [272] (this was two edits in the same rv't).
MarcusTrainanus then reverted to their changes after KhndzorUtogh objected without meaningful discussion or consensus [273].
Two other changes MarcusTrainanus made were reverted [274], [275] by @Nicat49: but the changes were restored by MarcusTrainanus without discussion or consensus by MarcusTrainanus [276]
The above shows MarcusTrainanus is 2x over 1RR and has ignored the previous objections to these edits.
Neither KhndzorUtogh or Nicat49 has violated 1RR.
Dispite violating 1RR and other editors objections, I have not reverted the changes made by MarcusTrainanus. Requesting rollback to point prior to MarcusTrainanus making undiscussed changes (and restoring their changes after objection) and consideration of full protection unless a consensus is reached for the changes on the talk page.
The players and chronology of the changes in the article are hard to follow, let me know if I have made a mistake. // Timothy :: talk02:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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A new contributor, continuing to add unsourced WP:OR 'motives' to multiple articles on school shootings, [277][278][279] after being informed of policy on their talk page. The comments there clearly suggest WP:NOTHERE applies. Not keen on the username, either. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
While it would behoove me to watch all of Berserk to figure out whether this is an extremely fucked-up reference or just a normally fucked-up reference, it really does not seem like this person is here to write an encyclopedia. Strange rubbernecking, random OR speculation, and the diffs you linked (including all of the random unsourced accusations about BLPs and BDPs). On their own, any of these edits might be eccentric and a little concerning, but when combined they seem to pretty obviously reflect a fixation on mass murder and on editing about such in a way that runs contrary to the purpose of the project. I'm blocking as WP:NOTHERE and am fine with anyone reviewing my action. jp×g🗯️10:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Note this post from the user's talk page (emphasis mine):
My friend, I am reliable sourcing. If you my problems persist, then a respective higher up may ban me. Otherwise, I will be honest in stating I have a level of apathy and boredom on the topic, and cannot promise to provide any “reliable” sources any time in the future. Postulation is indeed the base of all information and conceptual standpoints, and considering the extensive research I have done on mass murder, I’d personally argue—while understanding that this is not statistically or reasonably acceptable to expect others to accept—that I am one of the best researchers of this topic in the world, even more so than some first hand articles. I have as much knowledge on mass shootings and other terror attacks to surpass Adam Lanza himself in some people’s view if they knew what I knew, but my extensive arrogance and pontification is sure to be agitating and almost perceived as purposefully arrogant, so at the end of the day, I would simply ask you to be a little more patient, ban me if I get too annoying for you, and most of all, grasp that this is Wikipedia, and not the reliable sourcing you are looking for as inspiration. If someone is doing actual research on a topic, they will go to more places than the English Wikipedia. Sorry if I have not followed the guidelines that I did not look at up to this point for a reason mentioned prior in this paragraph that I do not intend to proof read. I have enough problems in my own life without worrying about the policies of this website. (And no the motive I added—at least the first part—was not garbage; he wasn’t very bright or complicated. If you knew yourself and could replace said motive with something better, then please enlighten me. Because I’m not too sure where your criticism is coming from at least on that point. Ban me whenever you feel the need). GriffithsTorturer (talk) 12:42 am, Today (UTC−8)
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Hi, this user is damaging the encyclopaedia. In his last two edits to the List of Italian dishes page, he has changed the Italian word "caffè" (in Italian language it's spelled with an accent) for the second time (I warned him the first time) and added a non-Italian pizza ("stromboli"; "place of origin: United States"). I propose an infinite block. JackkBrown (talk) 00:47, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Latest comment: 11 months ago7 comments5 people in discussion
User:Cookiemonster1618 has been under a three-month topic ban for 'all pages and discussions related to eastern and northeastern African peoples and languages, broadly construed' since 23 November 2023 [280]. In the ensuing five weeks, the user has made more than 180 edits relating to languages or peoples of northeast Africa (list [281]), & a further 90 that are questionably in violation. On 27 November, Cookiemonster1618 was reminded once of the ban [282], & stated that they had forgotten & would observe the ban for the future [283]. They now apparently dispute the meaningfulness of the core terms of the ban—Northeast Africa is not a region [284].
The initial ban arose from disputes between Cookiemonster1618 & other users. I should note for full transparency that a dispute with me was included in the reasoning for Cookiemonster1618's temporary ban, tho I did not participate in the ANI process & did not seek any sanctions of this user at that time. These problems included a failure to take other editors' interactions in Talk pages in good faith, unjustifiable accusations of vandalism, threats, & generally argumentative interactions with other editors. In the time since the ban was effected, Cookiemonster1618 has become involved in another personal dispute with user Michael Effiong, for which they came to ANI (Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1144#User:MichaelI_Effiong). Admin User:Star Mississippi warned Cookiemonster1618 that a failure to change their style of editing might lead to a broader topic ban. Several times in this period, they have posted generic disruptive editing warnings (Template:Uw-disruptive1 to the pages of new users when the edits appear to be in good faith, if problematic in ways that are typical of new editors ([285], [286], [287], [288], [289], [290]).
Today, I made a comment on Cookiemonster1618's page concerning edits that I believed to be in violation of the topic ban. They accused me of stalking them & trying to find excuses to blame them. User:ScottishFinnishRadish placed an editing block on Cookiemonster1618 for a period of 53 days, in accordance with the terms of the original ban: 'A violation will result in a block for the remainder of the topic ban duration or one month, whichever is longer.' This of course makes sense as a first step. However, given that Cookiemonster1618 has violated the topic ban so egregiously (an average of four times a day at a conservative reckoning) & has not been able to engage other editors more civilly, I request that they be banned indefinitely, pending a proposal for how they would engage Wikipedia differently. Pathawi (talk) 21:26, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for the ping. I am still limited in on wiki time and do not have time to explore the continuing issue. I support whatever action is necessary here. StarMississippi14:58, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Cookiemonster1618 requested an unblock following SFR's 53 day block. I have declined the unblock request. See User_talk:Cookiemonster1618#December_2023 for rationale. As to an indefinite block, I'm a bit on the fence. I believe Cookiemonster1618 to be a productive editor based on cursory review. But, the problematic behaviors need to stop. If they are incapable of understanding that Eritrea is in northeast Africa, when the topic ban is to be "broadly construed", and there is nothing in Africa that is more northeast than Eritrea, then there is a potential CIR issue at hand. I'm hoping for improvement. Hoping. --Hammersoft (talk) 02:14, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
I also think (& hope) that Cookiemonster1618 can become a productive editor, & I agree that on balance they've got mostly productive edits tho they're overwhelmingly of one nature: bringing Wikipedia into line with Ethnologue. However, problems like that which led to this editing ban have been occurring consistently for their entire editing history. They've been involved in Wikipedia since May. In early edits, they had very normal new editor troubles with appropriate sourcing & citation, but responded to questions & suggestions on their Talk page with exasperation & sarcasm [291]. In June, they were involved in a number of conflicts & edit wars—see the several different conflicts at [292], during which they were resistant to recognising verifiability criteria, threatened other editors, & repeatedly made personal attacks. The first of these problems has improved dramatically in the ensuing months—largely because they've stuck so closely to Ethnologue as a source—but not consistently (note this in September [293], where they are insistent on using a perennially unreliable source, despite having discussed the source with me three times). The other two issues have not improved at all. There is also a common pattern from June thru the present:
Cookiemonster1618 lashes out at other editors with accusations or threats,
states that a problem does not exist in the first place (23 June 'And what conflict? I haven't had a conflict with other users.' [294]; 31 December 'there is no such thing as a region called Northeast Africa' [295], then
becomes apologetic when an admin gets involved [296].
In July, Cookiemonster1618 was blocked for consistent addition of unsourced content [297]. While blocked, they solicited edits from another editor [298]. Again, this is of a cloth with the more recent pattern of just ignoring the Northeast Africa topic ban.
Throughout the months, there are repeat fairly wild accusations of vandalism (often in cases where other editors are in the wrong, but not vandalising) & a fair bit of edit-warring. This is obscured from a cursory overview by Cookiemonster1618's practice—as is their right—of removing discussion of conflicts from their Talk page. If you check before each major blanking of that page, you'll find a record of edit-warring or other problematic editor interactions. I don't think that this is going to improve by just waiting 52 days. Pathawi (talk) 12:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Perhaps not, but I'm willing to WP:AGF for now. Given this thread, I think it likely that visibility about the situation has risen. If problems arise again, we can address it then. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:37, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Seeing a second block appeal does not instill me with much confidence that we won't see this behaviour again when unblocked. They appear to display signs of WP:OWN in the articles they're interested in. In one of the brief interactions I had with them, they demonstrated tunnel vision when they accused an anonymous editor of adding unsourced content when all said editor did was remove an extraneous ref tag; Cookiemonster1618 only apologised when prompted to (full discussion).ScottishFinnishRadish has already blocked them for the remainder of the topic ban, which I think is enough. If they do get unblocked early, perhaps a wider topic ban involving any article about languages or peoples (unsure if broad construal is needed) for a month is in order? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:02, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
This user has been engaged in WP:OR and WP:SYNTH to POVPUSH in the lead of Economy of the Song dynasty. Originally they expanded page numbers of existing sources while adding info on the statements attached, which made it seem as though the source supported the additional info, even though they did not [299]. They then engaged in an edit war with multiple users [300][301][302][303] until they accused me of sockpuppetry [304][305]. They never filed a report against me. Despite warnings about edit warring and original research [306] they have returned to significantly expand the lead specifically to prove that the Song dynasty's economy was not greater than that of Europe's [307]. Not only do the sources not support the user's additions and even contradict them, one of them is an outdated general history text on European history, while the other does not mention China or the Song dynasty at all.
Ex. User's addition:
According to another source; while China was a very advanced and prosperous country at that period of time with a steel production of around 100,000 tons plus urban cities with millions of people; it was not particularly superior or more dynamic than the other great civilizations in Europe or India or the Islamic World; Europe who boosted around 100 million people in the 13th century was founding its universities of Cambridge and Oxford, building its great cathedrals , proclaiming the Magna Carta , achieving great wealth with the cites of Pisa and Venise, preparing the Italian Renaissance and the discoveries of the New World plus launching the Crusades and the City of Constantinople was still the center of World Trade between East and West and the capital of the very wealthy Byzantine Empire.[308]
The source:
By 1300 the "rise of Europe" was an accomplished fact. The third of the three segments into which the Greco-Roman world had divided, the one which in A.D. 700 had been the most isolated and fragmented, now some 600 years later had a civilization of its own. It was still only one among the several great cultures of the world, such as the Islamic, Byzantine, Indian, and Chinese. It enjoyed no preeminence. The Chinese empire, for example, in the thirteenth century, had cities whose population reached into millions. It had an affluent merchant class, great textile manufacturers, and an iron industry that produced over 100,000 tons a year. The arts and sciences were assiduously pursued. Government was centralized and complex; it issued paper money and employed a civil service recruited by competitive examinations. Books on religious, technical, and agricultural subjects, including whole multivolume encyclopedias, were printed in enormous numbers, even though the lack of an alphabet and the thousands of Chinese characters made it difficult for literacy to become widely spread. The Venetian Marco Polo was dazzled by the China that he livedin from 1275 to 1292.A History of the Modern World to 1815 tenth edition, p. 46 (they misspelled the name)
The book is a general history text with a particular focus on European history despite its name. The user opted to use an outdated edition (7th) that is over 30 years old. Their edits show lack of competency in grammar as well as citation style, leading to misformatted references and sentences in the current version [309].
When challenged to provide quotations as support [310], they failed in both cases [311], offering a quotation that is not the same as the added info and no quotation at all for the second source. Besides the OR, SYNTH, and COMPETENCY issues, there is also the WP:COATRACK behavior and the content is simply not DUE in a lead. They are now accusing me of WP:OWN[312]. Qiushufang (talk) 21:55, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Their response and language to warnings about OR also doesn't bode well for continued dialogue - see how they talk about "truth" and puffing themselves up:
First thing to show you your WP:OWN" which is forbidden 🚫; you removed first my contribution which say your assumption is based on one source which is the truth ; second Palmer is a classic but I m willing to discuss it on the talk page ; but when I described Europe achievements who are facts you removed them also ; third byzantine fiscal revenue are even in Byzantine article in Wikipedia; I simply compare the two empires revenues ; finally as for the comparison with Europe it is already in the article; I showed only respect for China ; I read a lot and see a lot of documents and movies about China like kingdom or qin empire so stop and open yourself to compromise I m ready to discuss[313] - WP:OTHERSTUFF reference to Byzantine article, the comparison between Byzantium and Song dynasty is never made in the source, and references to movies about China as an appeal for compromise on OR and SYNTH.
After looking at some of their other edits, they aren't any better on other articles, see Pamela Joan Rogers. Continuous unsourced additions with unencyclopedic language: [314][315][316][317]. When challenged, they add sources which do not support the attached info [318]. A Google search doesn't turn up anything either. They are again reverted by others [319], and SeriousHist reverts them again [320] until people give up or don't notice and settle for fixing their shoddy prose [321]. Afterwards they went back again to add in unencyclopedic language [322][323] not supported by the sources provided. Qiushufang (talk) 23:04, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
hello from the first I asked them Talk:Economy of the Song dynasty to work together; they did not respond ; then a lot of suspicious accounts showed up .
They removed first
- the fact that I said they were using one source to claim the song economy was the most prosperous in the world ; they removed it also it is a fact that it is based on one source.
- Second I used Palmer and common knowledge to show China was not particularly superior to other civilizations.
- Three I used the Byzantine Empire Fiscal figures in 1025 ( treadgold) and compared them to Song Dynasty fiscal revenues ( Byzantine Empire revenues were higher ; my figures are not contested they are present in my source and also in the Byzantine Empire Economy in Wikipedia) ; they removed everything not even trying to reach consensus, I begged them many times to go to the talk page or to wait for the community to discuss to no avail ; I leave the decision to your wisdom. It is true I m not always very active on Wikipedia but I know when to add important information; for example on Elizabeth Tudor which is a major article I added both the establishment of British Colonies in North America and the Eastern trade company ; both were missed entirely not even mentioned.
I believe they are behaving as they owned the article WP:OWN" .
Also if you see their talk page it is full with conflits with other users and war edits which is not the case in my edits in general; it is only in this article that I was faced with such a problem ;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Qiushufang
Anyway please be the judge and I thank you in advance; again I m ready to work with all people to make Wikipedia better. I believe in cooperation and good faith; happy new year for all SeriousHist (talk) 22:49, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
The only talk section involving SeriousHist is two years old and the only response to their contributions is a user stating that a source they provided does not support their claim. The same user reverted them for doing the same thing again in October 2023 [324]. All edits and reverts involving SeriousHist I provided for that page happened in recent months after the brief interaction on talk. This kind of deliberate misdirection has been typical of my experience dealing with them - changing page numbers as though they supported added material, addition of sources as though they support content when they do not, failure to provide quotations from sources that support material added, and ad hominem attacks like OWN or MEAT or SOCK when challenged. Qiushufang (talk) 00:13, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Facts are facts the difference between us is that I go to the talk page in good faith to try to resolve the issues and I never faced an issue like I faced with you ; sure I m not perfect but I m a team player which you are not ; my talk page prove it ; your talk page prove it ; in spite of all that for the 100 times I m ready to work with you on common ground if you accept to cooperate in good faith and stop WP:OWN which is for me the most disturbing aspect on Wikipedia; I had cooperation on Elizabeth Tudor and we did it unanimously; in Pamela Rogers ; an article changed by many contributors who totally rewrote or deleted my edits sometimes ;we cooperated and we were able to reach some missing information and to find consensus; same on other articles.
Supporting quotations were requested for the claims made here: "these numbers were relatively higher than the annual income of 500 tons of silver of the Song Empire" and "while China was a very advanced and prosperous country... it was not particularly superior or more dynamic than the other great civilizations in Europe".
No quotations which support these claims were provided. Neither in the reversion edit summary or talk section: Many have asked why China did not generate as Europe , in these centuries the forces that led to the modern scientific and Industrial world is a completely different sentence from "while China was a very advanced and prosperous country... it was not particularly superior or more dynamic than the other great civilizations in Europe", nor does it support the rest of the additions. Nor is it related to the topic of the article, Economy of the Song dynasty. What does this have to do with the economy of the Song dynasty?
Here you did not provide a quotation at all for the claim that these numbers were relatively higher than the annual income of 500 tons of silver of the Song Empire. I know you cannot provide a quotation because I checked the source and neither China or the Song dynasty are mentioned even once in the text. The author did not make claims or state anything about the subject of the article. This is what is called an original analysis and antithetical to how Wikipedia works per WP:OR and WP:SYNTH.
An editor is not required to cooperate or compromise with another user to find common ground on baseless information created via original analysis while pretending it is not. Qiushufang (talk) 05:54, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
WP:OR: Wikipedia articles must not contain original research... This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources.@SeriousHist: Do you or do you not understand what this sentence means? That other editors have not taken specific issue with your unencyclopedic language, consistent misrepresentation of sources, and addition of unsourced content is not a badge of approval. It simply means they did not care enough to deal with it beyond reverting you. Which is not even true. You have already been warned for it and reverted multiple times for the same issue. Qiushufang (talk) 06:09, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Again first you reverted the fact that I put your assumption about song dynasty being the most prosperous in the world was based on one source
- Palmer talk about China in the 13 th century which includes the Song Dynasty specifically with the economic figures
- The revenue of the Song dynasty are inside the song article; I simply compared them to the revenue of the Byzantine Empire which are in my source and these numbers are common knowledge like saying the Nominal GDP of USA in 2023 is 26 trillion dollars while that of China is 19 trillion dollars; anyway I m ready to present the figures without elaboration leaving each reader to reach his or her own conclusion.
- Your history of conflict behavior and WP:OWN is seen in your talk page and your behavior with the song article
- New Accounts appeared suddenly supporting you ; I suspect Meatpuppets which is a very grave situation.
- I suggested that we go to the talk page many times ; I brought many ideas to solve this ; I even developed new perspectives but all were rejected and reversed by you.
- Again I call on you to cooperate ; I m sure the arbitration here perhaps prefer that solution; I m not seeing it from a western perspective; I respect China Culture and I m immersing myself in it ; but facts are facts.
This is WP:IDHT or WP:COMPETENCE at this point. Enough explaining has occurred. User does not understand or is unwilling to recognize core Wikipedia policies such as WP:OR and WP:VERIFY and deflects when challenged to support their sources with quotations. Qiushufang (talk) 08:53, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
I rest my case trusting in the judgment of the competent comity ; I will abide by their judgment and move on ; no need to repeat ourselves so many times.
I decided to rest my case but I discovered that they removed information from Pamela Rogers article which was based on two sources and accepted by most users ; anyway I m not the owner of Pamela Rogers and I will not restore the materials which talk about the disparity in sentences between men and women predators; I believe this show the difference in behavior and thinking between us ; https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pamela_Joan_Rogers&diff=prev&oldid=1193280117
This case is closed for now. An admin helped with the situation. Thank you so much to all those who helped and assisted. Janneman27 (talk) 19:24, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Call for help: Removal of Sock puppet misinformation and POV-pushing edits
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@Milktaco, an infamous sockpuppeteer, wrote two sections called “Repression of Chams,” and “Ethnic Minorities” in the Human Rights in Vietnam page. It’s been there since 2014.
Could someone please remove these two sections? After that, the title "rights of specific groups" should be removed too, since there is no need to have that pluralised title anymore.
Please read this Talk page to understand Milktaco's awful behaviour. It has been called out before:
Talk:Racism_in_Vietnam
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Latest comment: 11 months ago4 comments4 people in discussion
I would like to inquire about the following case and ask the community for thoughts on whether it constitutes sockpuppetry: user:CollegeMeltdown, via an account named user:Collegemeltdown2, has been engaging in provocative discussions for quite a while now as in, for example, the talk page of Harvard University. While there doesn't seem to be an obvious concealment ("Master" account is CollegeMeltdown and second account is Collegemeltdown2), I still wonder if this nevertheless constitutes sockpuppetry because WP:SOCK also states it is "improper to use multiple accounts to... disrupt discussions" and that "creating new accounts to avoid detection or sanctions" may be seen as sockpuppetry. In my impression, there is no other rational and plausible explanation that this user uses a second account to engage in those provocative discussions than that he tries to protect his main account from sanctions should he go too far with his provocations. Eventually, CollegeMeltdown should perhaps also provide a rational and plausible explanation as to why he uses two accounts. However, should the conclusion be that this does not constitute sockpuppetry or block evasion of some sort, I think the broader question that would need be looked at is whether an editor who engages in such a dodgy behavior and constant rants (or "crusading") against specific topics on Wikipedia (in this case private schools), whether such an editor can actually contribute credibly and neutrally to corresponding wiki articles.213.55.224.53 (talk) 21:44, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
From a procedural standpoint, this isn't socking. CollegeMeltdown's last edit was 26 February 2023, and Collegemeltdown2's first edit was on 28 March 2023, so there's no overlap; the use of accounts here isn't abusive. It's very common for someone to create a new account with "2" appended when they have forgotten their password, as I suspect is the case here (and this scenario is listed as a valid use of multiple accounts), although the link between the two accounts should be made clear. I haven't looked at the substance of their edits, so I have no idea if there's something actionable here beyond the socking allegations. Giraffer (talk) 22:07, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
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They only had 2 edits and both involved sending messages to failed RfA candidates, saying "you won’t have any power / community does not trust you". Seems like a "bad hand" sock? I'm not sure if it'd be appropiate to report such cases to SPI since there's only one account or if it would be fishing.--94rainTalk10:28, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
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Latest comment: 11 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion
Hi, I have no idea how deal with these IP ranges, so I’m posting here for assistance. An IP-hopping user is mass creating user talk pages of the IP they’re using, switching IPs, and doing it over and over again. Please see my logged actions for reference. I don’t know how to combat this, so any assistance would be appreciated. ✗plicit09:34, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago18 comments6 people in discussion
Hello, I had no idea where to place this. I don’t know exactly what this falls under, and have never had a problem with a user previously.
I absolutely hate to waste any energy on this, but somebody has to get TheAmazingPeanuts under control. A portion of his edit history is dedicated to policing what does and what doesn’t count as “a single” from full-length record releases, even when the song is very clearly receiving a sustained amount of airplay indicating that the song has been sent to radio as a single. They’ve previously admitted himself that they probably aren’t the best evaluator of this criteria, yet almost daily they continue to revert well-intentioned edits simply trying to provide information about what is being promoted from an album.
I’ve read up on the criteria on Wikipedia that ascertains whether a song released on an album is a single or not, and I must say that it is highly outdated. AllAccess no longer provides reliable information as to what is a single and what will be released as one in the near future, which can maybe be attributed to Mediabase's recent partnership with Billboard, the magazine behind the flagship singles chart in the US. And if this website truly prides itself in presenting information of ALL branches of knowledge, maybe don’t let one person control the information that gets picked or not. Where is the community? I won’t mention the other behaviors that I noticed in the specific user because it’s simply not necessary, and that would be more of a judgement of their character behind the screen than their actions here on Wikipedia. I’ve assumed good faith previously and fell back, but the user has continued with this behavior which indicates A. they’re stubborn, B. they just haven’t taken the time to determine what defines a single in today’s industry, or C. they’re just a flat out troll, and honestly I’m leaning towards C. This whole debacle makes it very confusing for music fans to, again, keep up with what is being promoted from their favorite albums, and what is to come next. I feel the user is acting in their own self-interest and publishing what they believe is a single.
I've tried to approach this honestly and as clearly as possible. I hope that the staff is able to understand where I’m coming from and why this frustrates me as a fan of music. And I know I am not the only one that fights for songs to be considered singles judging by the edit history on the articles with such conflict.
Is there any place where you or others have attempted to discuss the matter? This notice board should not be the first step in a content dispute. Zaathras (talk) 04:57, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Hi, for me this situation originated in September with a dispute regarding what songs were considered singles on Travis Scott's Utopia album. I discussed it then and I will discuss it again, because there comes a point where it seems like the individual is going out their way to blur the lines of what a single is.
I would rather come to someone with authority than to lead myself into a pointless edit war with another user when again, they have admitted that they do not know how to indicate what is and what isn't a single. 2601:1C2:1801:D80:4C30:3201:11BD:BAF3 (talk) 05:10, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Hits is not a reliable source; there's never been a discussion on this website. At WP:SINGLE?, it says a song that was referred to as a single by a random media outlet should not be classified as a single. I have started a discussion on the talk page. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 05:12, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
HitsDailyDouble is not a random media outlet. The Wikipedia page you provided for it quite literally states that it is (or was referred to in 1997 as) the "most successful tip sheet in the music world". SongQuarters is considered a tip sheet, and even as a defunct website is still listed as a source on various Wikipedia pages I've come across over time. I can understand not using Hits "Rumor Mill" as a source because that's all it is. Gossip. Rumors.
All in all regardless of sources, the single criteria needs to be revamped, simple as that. Whether that is giving the OK as soon as a track reaches top 40 on a radio format or just indicating the month that it began taking off at radio as when the single was released. The way it is right now just seems extremely fickle. 2601:1C2:1801:D80:4C30:3201:11BD:BAF3 (talk) 05:27, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
That's an opinion, not a fact. There's still a need for discussion about whether the website is considered a reliable source; just because you think it's reliable doesn’t mean everybody else thinks it is. That's why we have talk pages. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 05:37, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
See, you're missing the point. My goal is not to impose what I think is reliable or not. I'm trying to bring about a serious open discussion about what indicates a single on Wikipedia, and why you feel so responsible to determining what isn't? 2601:1C2:1801:D80:4C30:3201:11BD:BAF3 (talk) 05:42, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Um, no. My concerns were placed here for a reason, and I said all I would have needed to say over there right here anyway. Will be sure to head over there if I have anything to add but as it is the inconsistencies speak for themselves. The criteria in general needs to adapt. 2601:1C2:1801:D80:4C30:3201:11BD:BAF3 (talk) 05:54, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
While this may not have originated as an intent to have a content dispute, it seems to presently be one (concern over reliable sources, etc.)—so perhaps another venue is presently in order. Remsense留06:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
My concern was and is with TheAmazingPeanuts continued (and mostly ineffective) vigilant behavior on this site. The single discussion was the origin of me saying something about this. He caught a case of sockaphobia with me because of the edit war brought on by the initial situation. It was bully-like behavior. I'm interested in continuing that discussion as well but I can't really just go off the cuff with it.
He has a history of being inconsiderate and condescending. It's why he came through so quick to turn these concerns into debate. Eventually Mr. Peanut is gonna go too far and truly crash out on someone here, and when it happens, well... That's all I need to say in this talk page. 2601:1C2:1801:D80:4C30:3201:11BD:BAF3 (talk) 06:46, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
I mean I'm just being upfront. That's who I am. But if that's disruptive to you then you do you and I'll keep doing me. Sometimes you need to be disruptive when you're fighting for a cause. I'm sorry if that's something you don't have in you. Stay blessed. 2601:1C2:1801:D80:4C30:3201:11BD:BAF3 (talk) 06:07, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
(Non-administrator comment) This really should have gone to a different venue like dispute resolution, because as far as I can tell it's a content dispute. The filer has not provided any diffs of questionable conduct. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 06:58, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
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First, the page is Jilu, second...I see Talk:Jilu hasn't had conversation in three years upon it. No comment on the PA assertion, but discussion is required besides 'unsourced sections removed', when a good reason is needed as to why you removed content without checking sources first. Nate•(chatter)17:30, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Above IP was blocked a year as a proxy, so that's put to rest, but next time, discussion is advised and a message on the talk page on why the content was removed is welcomed; that way if this happens again you can simply point there. Nate•(chatter)17:50, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
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I can't understand the reasoning behind the prohibition of a section called Nutrition and health in the article Picanha. Is this prohibition following procedure? Thanks in advance. A. Landmesser (talk) 17:02, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
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Latest comment: 11 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion
Roy_sikh indeffed by El_C for for persistent copyright violations as well acute competency and communication problems. Ravenswing 07:32, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
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Roy_sikh has been adding unsourced POV content to caste articles, they have been warned multiple times for their unconstructive edits.[339] Today they re-uploaded an image[340] that was deleted on commons for copyright violations [341]. Aswell as creating a draft article in a non English language [342]. I think a block is warranted at this point to prevent further disruption. Thanks.Ratnahastin (talk)06:07, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Alok 567 has been causing significant disruption at Talk:Bhumihar, including making legal threats[343][344][345][346] and repeatedly posting the same complaint multiple times[347][348][349][350] despite several editors undoing them as TPG violation. All while ignoring several warnings given to them by multiple editors on their Talk. They also keep disrupting other articles – most of their edits had to be undone. Can someone reason with them? A level 4 warning unfortunately did not work. Thanks. — kashmīrīTALK16:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
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Eol Gurgwathren: edit-war, personnal attack against me
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The user has called mesome ultratraditionalist Catholic who allegedly harassed the user. They also state I am trying to vandalise and article due to ulterior motives (I allegedly have clear intention of keeping the Liberal Church information surpressed and ambiguous). Veverve (talk) 20:13, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
I had a suspicion you were editing with malicious intent. I can see a pattern in your preferences and you're not denying your agendum here. It's becoming obvious
The previous articles you eviscerated were far more informative. This is starting to seem malicious
You are interpreting Wikipedia's standard in bad faith here. Everyone has preconceptions. Mine happen to not be wrong. You are doing everything you can to suppress content on this topic
Veverve. The other editors have agreed that your revision Liberal Catholic Church is too extreme. You are curt and unhelpful in your criticisms. Anyway I have reassurected an article advised by another editor and put sources in. Please next time you try to delete information, put a "citation needed" so that I can attend to it. It is very difficult to provide information when I have to keep reverting from a stub. Be constructive in your criticism, not dismissive and rude. Eol Gurgwathren (talk) 00:39, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
This is not at all an accurate representation of the talk page. As far as I can tell, only AndreasMar agrees wholly with @Eol Gurgwathren's position, and I am not impressed by their rhetoric on the page. Two other users, TSP and RetroCosmos, seem to largely disagree with them, and instead agree with @Veverve. Frankly, the latter largely root their arguments in site policy, and the former respond with "something is better than nothing", which is not a very strong argument in a vacuum, especially for potentially contentious topics:
I have gone through the laborious task of finding as many secondary sources, where appropriate to bring the older page back to life. Please, any further edits, need to be on THIS revision. Simply reverting it back to the stub is unproductive. As per WP:BURDEN, " In some cases, editors may object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references. Consider adding a citation needed tag as an interim step." Please respect the work that goes into dredging this up for your perusal BEFORE simply obliterating it.
The above is not really acceptable: Consider adding a citation needed tag should not be conflated with any further edits, need to be on THIS revision. Simply reverting it back to the stub is unproductive. You do not get to decide what is on an article, and there are often good reasons to remove uncited content—you have not provided a reason why it shouldn't be removed other than "I worked hard on it", which is not adequate.
The material can be restored easily from the page history once citations are procured, and no work is lost. Alternatively, you can work on a draft or in your own userspace. Remsense留00:53, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Semi-protected for a period of 2 weeks, after which the page will be automatically unprotected. Indef not viable yet as this is the page's 1st protection. El_C15:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Pssst! Ritchie333! This may help sort out the Complex 7 versus Birotronics dispute:
Hidden away in the back streets of High Wycombe are the headquarters of Complex 7, a very new company designed to provide all the necessary services for the aspiring professional musician. […]
Perhaps in time the most well-known section of the Complex 7 network will be Birotronics, the company that manufactures and markets the Birotron, a new keyboard instrument which was first developed in the U.S. by a keyboard player called Dave Biro.
— "Complex Seven". Beat Instrumental Magazine. No. 152. January 1976. pp. 62–63.
Given that it is being quoted almost half a century later when everyone has entirely forgotten Complex 7, because of Wikipedia disruption by someone who cannot cite sources to save xyr own life it seems, this very article seems to be making its own prediction come true. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 05:34, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
I don't think the presence of Complex 7 is too much of an issue now, LowSelfEstidle added a source for that. Indeed, LSE is another editor who's had their well-sourced edits reverted by this collection of IPs, who go on to add unsourced content like:
In 1980 the instrument was subsequently redeveloped again as the Birotron Polyvox in the United States by Rudkin-Wiley (a subsidiary of Air Shield and Pepperidge Farm Foods under Campbells Soup Company but by 1982 the decision was made to abandon production of a half built prototype with demonstration cartridge sounds due to the Early 1980's recession.
Latest comment: 11 months ago27 comments15 people in discussion
It seems to me that the editing practices of users Homerethegreat and Marokwitz are both biased and disruptive. Specifically these users appear to be editing with a pro-Israel bias, and making these edits on pages directly related to the Arab–Israeli conflict — a designated contentious topic.
Additionally, both users have been making a high number of edits, with number of edits made since Oct 7th being over 2,500 for Homerethegreat and over 1,000 for Marokwitz, almost all of these edits directly related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I personally don't think this can or should be tolerated or ignored if their editing is consistently low effort, biased, disruptive, and pushing a WP:POV — which it seems to me that it is.
You are a user with a total of 622 edits, focusing on the ARBPIA topics since November 5, which is interesting since you have only received edit confirmed rights two weeks ago [353]. Be aware that this could very easily lead to a WP:BOOMERANG, with your EC rights being revoked.
Before complaining here, you have made a false accusation of "disruptive editing" against me here [354], failing to provide evidence, failing to assume good faith, and casting aspersions even though all I did was reply to a discussion on the talk page.
Since it is a WP:CTOP topic area, you're more likely to get a rapid response if you take it to WP:AE. It'd be important to have specific diffs demonstrating the problem, though. Remember that simply having a bias is not in and of itself actionable (most editors who edit articles on contentious topics do have opinions on them; it would be hard to be fully informed without forming opinions of some sort.) What you'd have to demonstrate is that their biases are affecting their edits in a way that leads to WP:TENDENTIOUS editing or WP:BATTLEGROUND conduct. --Aquillion (talk) 05:43, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
So before anything, Joyeux Noël! (it means Merry Christmas in French) Hope you're having a good holiday. Just on a personal note I think it's always best to begin in positivity which is an important part of the holiday spirit, so basically hope you're having good holidays wherever you are :).
So regarding the diffs you presented, I think it's important to note that I believe we are all here to improve Wikipedia and at times we have differences which is understandable. As I do recall I think in one of the diffs you showed I explained to you the issue and I do not recall you answering or addressing the issues I raised...
I saw the statement written by @Marokwitz and I think it is possible that a wp:boomerang can happen and indeed there is an issue here regarding you having edited in the topic without being an EC. I must say I feel that I have tried to act in goodfaith in the talk discussions and I do not feel the same goodfaith has been enacted with me.
I hope that we can progress beyond this and work together as I have indicated in one the diffs where you haven't answered (I assume in this age when we are peckered with info it is difficult to keep track). Again, happy holidays and Joyeux Noël!Homerethegreat (talk) 08:30, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
I find it troubling that @Arkon recommended @IOHANNVSVERVS take this up with AE, yet user @Kire1975 instead took the initiative to do so, and is now canvassing both this post and the NPOV post on an uninvolved noticeboard. I'm with @Marokwitz, I think some jets need to cool off here. Mistamystery (talk) 02:14, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
which one is the uninvolved noticeboard? what is this canvassing you speak of? can you provide diffs? cooling off is fine, but there is still a legitimate problem here. Kire1975 (talk) 13:17, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
I'm confused. You already acknowledged the overreach and thought this matter was settled. Outside of commenting on another user's appeal, the user you are targeting was not involved in any fashion with the topic ban matter pertaining to nableezy and the other users.
"Homerethegreat is now here seeking sanctions against User:Nableezy at WP:AE" is not an accurate representation of what has occurred. Nableezy received a 90 day TBAN from the Arab-Israeli Conflict topic. They appealed. Homerethegreat made a comment as an involved editor, expressing their views on the appeal. They're allowed to do this; there is nothing wrong with that. Chuckstablers (talk) 03:01, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for the apology, I appreciate it. I understand it's tough at times and that's alright. I would be happy if you could also point out the apology and clarify the matter in the other report which you opened on me. I won't lie, I do feel hurt, but I hope we can turn a new page and start anew. Homerethegreat (talk) 16:26, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
This is an administrators' noticeboard - where are you, administrators? Are you okay with this behavior? A user started editing contentious pages without EC, repeatedly casting aspersions and personal attacks in multiple forums. Another user is making alternate apologies, personal attacks, and mocking people for being polite.
Latest comment: 11 months ago4 comments4 people in discussion
User:RonakJK, despite having a declared conflict of interest with the company, repeatedly creates the obviously promotional article Ethans Tech/Ethan's Tech. The article (under both spellings) has already been speedy deleted many times under G11 and has been flagged for it again. While the user has been informed of the rules to follow under a COI and has declared it on their userpage, they keep recreating the promotional article directly in article space, according to their edit summary with the Permission of the organization. What should be done to prevent further spam? ChaotıċEnby(t · c)11:53, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
To me the obvious choice of action is to give a final warning and block if they try and do it again. Usually an indef block for WP:NOTHERE would be best, but this editor seems to have at least tried to improve Wikipedia, unlike most of the run-of-the-mill promoters. JML1148(talk | contribs)05:05, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago5 comments5 people in discussion
Would someone pblock User:Andriyiw from mainspace (with as much kindness as you can, please)? As you can see from their contributions, almost all of their edits have been reverted, and they've only ever edited mainspace, usually with no edit summary. Among other things, they've undone a redirect at Battle of Mospyne three times, with no explanation ever given, even in edit summaries, despite reverts, a ping on that article's talk page, and a note on their user talk page. They're editing from mobile so I assume this is a case of WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU. Hoping a block will help them find their talk page. -- asilvering (talk) 21:00, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
This is not so much that WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU but that they do not care. They were using their edit summaries to "communicate" with (read: hurl homophobic abuse at) another editor, and the overwhelming majority of their contributions can be best described as nationalist pov-pushing. I will try to revert some of them later. Anyway, good indef. Ostalgia (talk) 09:10, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Aggressive attacks for starting a discussion on an article's talk page | Removal of template
They made such personal attack possibly due to this discussion opened by me on Vyooham (2024 film) talk page on moving the article to Vyuham (2024 film).
They also said that I did "vandalism" and they happened to revert that "vandalism" which are personal attacks against me.
They chose to resort to personal attack because a bot undid their revision and they don't agree with a discussion that's posted on an article's talk page? How uncivil of that.
How can someone remove a discussion template not 1 but 2 times when the template explicitly asks editors to not remove that. Not that I discourage and make attacks against editors on Wikipedia but that explains who's "new" here I guess. WP:NOTHERE applies too. Thewikizoomer (talk) 11:18, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
When it is Vyooham and you bluff that it is Vyuham in imdb and film poster. This is not personal attack. Misleading wikipedia and putting notification boards just because you created the article as Vyuham is not good practice. And yes it is waste of time for busy editors to review silly things such as these. And putting silly issues in admin noticeboard is another time waste. Thanks Fostera12 (talk) 11:22, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Ok, let the silly thing be taken care by administrators anyways.
Could you please explain the bluffing part? When did I mention that it's Vyuham in imdb and film poster. I literally said except IMDb, no other source uses Vyuham as the title's spelling. You appear to be not understanding what I said again and resorting to personal attack again on Administrators noticeboard page, it also again displays the uncivil nature that is not expected of an editor here on Wikipedia. Thewikizoomer (talk) 11:29, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
I don't agree with the title name being Vyooham as per sources, also you failed to explain the bluffing part, so the discussion may be continued at the talk page of Vyooham (2024 film) regarding the title.
@Fostera12 I suggest that you take a walk in the park/have a sip of coffee or tea/do something else that you like and come back to this after you have calmed down and reflect what you have written on @Thewikizoomer's talk page. Would you appreciate such messages if someone going to your talk page with similar messages on what you think is right? This request was originally requested at WP:RM/TR by Thewikizoomer, but it seems that they have decided to open a discussion instead before any pagemovers or admins assessed the request. If you have any concerns on the requested move, add your comments/thoughts in that discussion in a civil manner. – robertsky (talk) 11:45, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
@Thewikizoomer there's nothing to strike out when you had already removed the comments? Special:Diff/1193565637. Striking out usually means this (editing the text to put a line across). It also gives the opportunity for the other party to leave some additional words, hopefully in contrition.
That being said, @Fostera12, it has been more than a day. Do you acknowledge the issue and that you should not repeat a similar outburst on Thewikizoomer's talk page or elsewhere? – robertsky (talk) 14:27, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
It's been ages since I've had to do any vandal fighting. Think someone can look at this and see if anything further needs done? Special:Contributions/189.238.134.151. I've currently just reverted them, though it's... weird they're just blanking random Signpost articles from years back, right? Adam Cuerden(talk)Has about 8.7% of all FPs.02:33, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Adam Cuerden, checking the filter log confirmed that this warrants a block. We do have a number of regulars who blank archived content, or screw with old AfDs--I can't tell if this is one of them, and running CU on the range, 189.238.128.0/20, is a bit far-fetched, so I just blocked the IP, with a note, "see filter log". If you don't deal with vandalism much, then God bless you; checking the filter log is a quick way to possibly strengthen your case if you wish to report vandals, at WP:AIV. Thanks, and take care, Drmies (talk) 16:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago12 comments4 people in discussion
OJIV (talk·contribs) is a single-purpose account that focuses on articles related to Radhika Sarathkumar, including the production company they founded (Radaan Mediaworks) and of late, the television show Ponni C/O Rani. Their edits on that article are generally helpful, but they massively overlink terms related to Sarathkumar [357] and ignores the MOS for using italics for television shows [358]. I've been leaving messages on their talk page about this starting in early December [359] starting at polite messages and leading to final warnings [360] with messages on how they need to change their editing style.[361] They have not responded to any messages nor adjusted the problematic edits. I'd like an admin to review this and consider a partial block on either the Pooni C/O page, or article space entirely to get them to discuss and follow the MOS. Thank you. Ravensfire (talk) 18:46, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Zero response to any messages for quite a while and they've been around for 6 months or so. Polite messaging, as you can tell, has gotten zero response, hence a more direct message and hopefully something that would get them to communicate. All that's needed here is for OJIV to say they will start following the MOS and respond to concerns. Their editing shows their either don't see the messages about this or don't care. This is when a block is needed to get them to discuss their edits. Ravensfire (talk) 00:37, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
I think an indef block is necessary. They aren't a mobile editor, so I strongly suspect they are intentionally ignoring their talkpage. JML1148(talk | contribs)09:04, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Indeffed until they communicate. I will point out Ravensfire that their edits are not vandalism, so please to not say they are in your edit summaries. Canterbury Tailtalk17:54, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
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Someone from Seattle has been making nonsensical additions[364][365][366] to many articles. It's childish vandalism that should be blocked from article space. Nothing constructive from this range. Binksternet (talk) 21:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello,
some weeks ago I've opened a report regarding the user Keremmaarda, however, it was moved into IncidentArchive1144 [1] and no action was taken. There were several users that were concerned about the uncivil demeanor that Keremmaarda was exhibiting himself. Everyone who criticized his behaviour was accused of being unneutral. I don't want to ping everyone that's been involved because that would go too far, but those are only some of the uncivil comments (disregarding the actual article the report was about):
Are you practicing nationalism?
all the editors who object are Albanian
Am I to blame here?
Now tell those who deleted the same things before a consensus was reached. Thanks (in response to Ostalgia, who criticized his behaviour)
You are not impartial (in response to PoliticDude, who criticized his behaviour)
No, these quotes are from the discussion that developed in the previous report, which was backed by diffs. It got archived due to lack of activity after a few days. I tried to mediate in the discussion but was less than impressed with the response I got from the user in question. Ostalgia (talk) 17:50, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
All the quotes are from the archived discussion. You also made some comments there but as Ostalgia correctly states, I think it was an accident that it was moved. Thanks AlexBachmann (talk) 23:32, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Sections auto-archive after a period of inactivity. So if no admin was willing to take action, that's it. Unless you can show improper behavior that has continued since then, we'll likely see the same outcome. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite17:09, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
With all due respect, this user breached every guideline on Wikipedia that can be breached and that’s it? @Super Dromaeosaurus has already noticed that they continue with this behavior. Every participant in the previous report was absolutely shocked by his attitude towards everyone. How can such clear breaches of the most basic Wikipedia guidelines can simply be dismissed? AlexBachmann (talk) 17:04, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
To be honest, while guidelines and rules are usually respected, and while those who flout them are usually punished, people breaking the rules and getting away with it is something that happens all the time, and I've seen worse from established users, even from administrators. Even more importantly, while I would endorse a block of the user in question, and it's likely that an admin would as well, lots of things just fall through the cracks at ANI, and you should not be surprised if this ends up getting shelved due to lack of admin involvement (to give you a personal and recent example, I reported someone about a week ago after they continued breaking the rules in spite of three warnings and two temporary blocks, yet the report got allost no attention and was simply archived - it happens). Ostalgia (talk) 06:54, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Okay, I was going to just let this go since you didn't seem to be initiating any problems since the last report. But the above WP:IDHT snarky response is exactly what you've been dragged to ANI. You seriously need to dial back the rhetoric and assumptions that you're always right, and everyone else is wrong. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite18:02, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Look, I'm tired of all this. You find an answer to every reaction and declare me guilty. I don't understand what topic this discussion is continuing on. If I said anything bad or violated any rules, I apologize and request that the topic not be prolonged any further. (I don't even know which rule I broke, in fact I don't think I broke any rules). I'm sorry if I made any wrong moves. Keremmaarda (talk) 19:53, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
And I did not respond to any of your claims or continue to defend myself, I just left it to the opinions of other editors and admins. I also stopped defending. If the problem is that I think I'm right, if that's really the problem, I won't talk any more. (I had already stopped talking) Keremmaarda (talk) 19:56, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Can you explain why your edit summary included not just a comment in Turkish, but a translation of the section title into Turkish as well? signed, Rosguilltalk20:14, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
I understand what you are saying. iPhone has automatic page translation. That's why it translates the page to Turkish and Turkish appears in the edit history. Keremmaarda (talk) 20:22, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Since it looks like this thread is finally getting attention, I will put my two cents. This has wasted me a lot of time because they do not understand well many of Wikipedia's policies. On this page [367] they've added a source claiming a very small size (15,000) for the Ottoman army which contradicts every single contemporary source and cited source on the article. This user lacks an understanding of what primary and secondary sources are. They've stated that Wikipedia does not care about primary sources and is not used[368]. They also reject all contemporary sources in the article and call them exaggerated without any foundation [369]. I can say a lot more, they've also engaged in WP:Original research (arguing why they think the other numbers are unrealistic and failing to provide a source for their personal analysis when I asked them to, also OR comments like It is not possible to provide logistical support for 250,000 people., Where will you march 250,000 people? They need food,[370]) and WP:SYNTH (used a source talking about 1476 to argue their point regarding this 1462 battle [371]). I've been dragged into starting a DRN report, which they are not talking in [372].
As the article features some numbers for Ottoman losses, they've stated I would remove the military losses of the Ottoman army and add that "military losses were insignificant, but many supply animals such as horses and seves died"[373]. This is POV-pushing. They've done this in other articles. On this one, they've reduced the size of the Ottoman army from 80,000 to 15,000 [374]. They claim that Demetrio Francione, who was a 16th-century historian that lived one century after the event of this article, is not a proper historian and added their own preferred source instead [375]. They reject the sources they dislike in order to argue their point. I can't help but be worried about this edit from them [376] according to which a 3,000-strong army defeated a 50,000-strong one. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 13:05, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Having reviewed the dispute at Night attack at Târgoviște, I believe that a topic ban from Ottoman history for Kerenmmaarda is an appropriate sanction. I am particularly concerned by edits such as Special:Diff/1188021822, where a source is given that describes the forces of a different battle than the one that is actually the subject of the article. Similarly, arguing that we cannot cite secondary sources because those secondary sources cite primary sources is a misreading of policy. Taken together with the consistent POV perspective that accompanies these errors, this behavior becomes tendentious. Had Kerenmmaarda been properly notified of WP:CTOPS, I would have imposed this as an arbitration enforcement measure. I have left them a CTOPS alert notice for future reference. signed, Rosguilltalk19:32, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
User:Rosguill and others - I had notified them of the Eastern Europecontentious topic when I started the now-failed mediation, and they agreed to the mediation rules. ArbCom did clarify that parties to mediation at DRN have been notified of a contentious topic if they agree to mediation rules that refer to the contentious topic. However, that may have been about two hours before Rosguill alerted them. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:51, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
I support a topic ban and, if the behavior continues, a complete ban. I previously warned Keremmaarda for his behavior on October 25 (see this diff). It's also worth noting that Keremmaarda deleted this warning and our subsequent discussion from his talk page (see this diff) so others may not be aware he has officially been warned months ago about his behavior.--SouthernNights (talk) 19:44, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Support a topic ban. It’s finally getting the attention it absolutely needs. Thank you to all participants of this discussion. AlexBachmann (talk) 00:31, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Worth noting that this person does not seem to understand the weight and purpose of ANI. They've recently started two reports over content disputes. The first was against me [379][380]. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 21:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Support topic ban, I think this is a user working right on the edge of their competence linguistically-speaking, who is pushed over the edge into WP:CIR when controversial topics they feel strongly about are involved. I am particularly concerned by this comment, which, if analysed with the maximum generosity possible, shows something quite fundamentally wrong with their understanding of historical sources. On balance of probabilities, it shows something much worse.
I would urge an admin to take action now, this user is going to become a time sink and is likely to be back here before long. Boynamedsue (talk) 06:39, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Support (here from RSN) the diff mentioned by Boynamedsue at least shows a poor understanding of how to judge a reliable source. Some time editing in other areas to build competence would be a good idea. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t° 17:10, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
What is going on in this userpage---User:XaotikHP? I'd say they violate self-promotion... but that doesn't seem to make sense... On the other hand, the userpage seems completely inappropriate given its countless undue praises. Can an administrator handle this please?
AriTheHorsetalk to me!02:43, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
One of the awards is actually on three userpages which do not fulfill the criteria for it and on only one which does (see here). It's odd that there's so little that can be done about it.
Well these awards aren't actually awards, they're just stuff people made up. There are no awards or badges etc that people get to display on Wikipedia for edit counts etc. People just make stuff up and put them on their user pages, no rules against it and they mean zero. Canterbury Tailtalk03:17, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Whatever is happening — and the rest of the edit history (including Special:Diff/975126020) hints that it's just someone just messing around — it stopped in April of 2023. And the accountholder had made very few edits per year before then. Perhaps — Special:Diff/1018956223 — the accountholder has grown up and left school. Uncle G (talk) 03:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
This page is for urgent incidents and chronic, unmanageable behavioral problems.
Got to think the same. What, so some guy gives himself barnstars nine months ago and hasn't been seen since? This is near-to WP:BOOMERANG level hysteria on the OP's part. Do they fancy themselves the arbiters of propriety on Wikipedia? The time filing this "complaint" could have been better used improving the encyclopedia. Ravenswing 07:04, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Latest comment: 11 months ago15 comments6 people in discussion
Hello. User Thenightaway has been bulk deleting page contents, especially those related to Azerbaijan. Some of these deletions are done without a problem, but some are really bothering.
For instance, on this article he deleted some redundant information BUT at an expense of helpful and encyclopedic ones. I posted two general notes on his page (Special:Diff/1193130383Special:Diff/1193131000). Following this, he replied to me as if I was ordered to restore the content by the Azerbaijani government stating Wikipedia is not intended to duplicate the official communications of the Azerbaijan government, even though you and a ring of editors from Azerbaijani Wikipedia for some reason think that's what Wikipedia is for.(Special:Diff/1193354034). I gave him a notification on personal attacks and asked for further details for the deletion in a kind way. At the end, he just blanked his talk page and left my questions unaswered stating Wikipedia is not the forum to discuss this. I respect the rule 3RR so didn't revert it until this issue is settled.
The context for this complaint is that a group of editors from Az.Wikipedia are mass-importing very poor quality articles from Azebaijani Wikipedia into English Wikipedia. These articles are overwhelmingly sourced to official communications by the Azerbaijani government. I have not remarked on whether Toghrul R is a paid editor – I just expressed disagreement that Wikipedia should just regurgitate Azerbaijani government communications, which is the kind of content that Toghrul and a group of Az.Wikipedia editors seem to bring to English Wikipedia. At least one sysops editor from Az.Wikipedia, who has been mass-importing poor articles to English Wikipedia, is a paid employee for the subjects they're writing articles for: Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#User:Atakhanli,_a_sysops_from_Az.Wikipedia. I leave it to the COI noticeboard (User:OwenX raised similar complaints) to figure out whether more editors are editing for pay. Thenightaway (talk) 13:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Could someone please convert the OP's links from mobile to desktop? They are effectively unreadable right now. El_C13:35, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
@Thenightaway We are currently discussing about the fact that you delete the text from A to Z without even including certain parts that are notable. ...and the art of discussing, which is critical in such cases. You seem to not reply to the discussions when necessary, but keep reverting the content when you object to it. I'm doing my best to assume good faith in your edits, in return stumble upon some unreasonable ones which lead me to assume these edits are done on purpose.
The group (you think there is) surely is a bad sight for Wikipedia, but it has no relation with the reason you have been reported. If I have added any type of pro-Azerbaijani mass inclusion of content per your which is the kind of content that Toghrul and a group of Az.Wikipedia editors seem to bring to English Wikipedia comment, please, provide them. Either way, this comment is nothing but another personal attack. And the other topic is open for comments in another section, not here. — Toghrul R (t)13:41, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
What personal attack, Toghrul R? Please quote it directly. Also, we (as in those who review and decide on reports here), look over all evidence provided. A user submitting a complaint is under the same scrutiny as those whom they report on. Obviously, they don't get to dictate the focus or scope of any given investigation. El_C14:10, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
@El C per highlighted texts in green: The user have indicated that I'm among those who have mass-added pro-Azerbaijani content (puffery as he refers to) and mentioned the users with whom I have no relation.
Also, I wrote to him regarding the article content. I've opened this topic for his approach to the articles in general too. His bulk-deletion, not replying to the question and the deletion the whole discussion, etc. Asking for the reasons for removal (which were not not provided in the first place) shouldn't end up this way — Toghrul R (t)14:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Toghrul R, I don't see how that's a personal attack. Though, if there's no evidence behind that claim, it could be an WP:ASPERSION — Thenightaway, briefly, what specifically is this evidence? Otherwise, Toghrul R, as mentioned, in any given report scrutiny is a double-edged sword: for the complainant as much as those whom they complain against. El_C14:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
My take on this is, swaying from the original purpose (which is the content) to talk about me in general can be taken personal. As the respective policy say, we should comment on content, not on the contributor. — Toghrul R (t)14:53, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
I do not recall specifically saying that Toghrul adds pro-government content. I said he added content sourced to Azerbaijan government communications[381] and at least in these two cases[382][383] helped to restore poorly sourced government communications that Az.Wikipedians mass-imported into English Wikipedia. Thenightaway (talk) 14:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
@Thenightaway I can't even remember that article; nevertheless, if necessary, the article can be deleted. It was a popular event at the time about which I created an article 6 years ago. I've gained more knowledge on the policies over the years, thankfully.
The other reversions were not done to restore the content, but to discuss why you deleted notable parts too.
Of course, as I mentioned in my first sentence in this thread, some of your removals are in tact, but some others do trim the parts that can be kept on Wikipedia. That is the problem I brought up here after not coming to a conclusion — Toghrul R (t)15:11, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Didn't we just have an AE case a few months ago where a ring of AZ.wiki editors were caught MEATPUPPETING for a community banned editor to get Azeri propaganda inserted into pages about the conflict in Artsakh? 208.87.236.202 (talk) 00:52, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
I happen to of come across a few of Thenightaway's AfD nominations for Azerbaijan-related articles. Besides being a bit generic in their nomination descriptions, I believe their nominations are largely reasonable. The content of these articles is mostly unsourced, verging on promotional and there is at the very least apparent COI. I assume the IP is referring to this thread, although it seems fairly frequent in AE archives. It may be worth mentioning that according to AfD stats Thenightaway appears to of only participated in AfD by making deletion nominations, so their help would be appreciated in also contributing to other nominations. Darcyisverycute (talk) 08:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago18 comments7 people in discussion
The incident mainly concerns my replacement of the Airlines and Destinations list in the Harry Reid International Airport article with a summary of the airport's operations. I did so per this RFC. Other people said on the talk page that they opposed my edit, including Reywas92, but the editor did not explain why. I ultimately requested dispute resolution a few weeks ago. I invited Reywas92 to participate, but they did not take part beyond providing a summary of the dispute. In accordance with the dispute closure, I removed the list again. Reywas92 then reverted my edit. They added 24 sources to the table; however, 22 of them are WP:PRIMARYNEWS or blogs. Since Reywas92 did not participate in the discussion portion of dispute resolution, I do not know if they do not recognize the need for secondary sources to demonstrate the list meets WP:DUE (per the RFC), or if this is a case of WP:IDHT.
Reywas92 also reverted my removal of the Statistics section of the article, which I had explained in my edit summary.
Though editors are not required to participate at WP:DRN, it is my view that Reywas92 has displayed a preference for reverting rather than discussion. This has made it difficult to make edits to the article that I believe abide by the RFC consensus and Wikipedia policy. Sunnya343 (talk) 01:18, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
I did participate at DRN, I am not obligated to respond to every comment. I did respond at the talk page. Regarding the statistics tables you are unilaterally removing, these are standard across airport articles as part of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Airports/page content and perfectly appropriate to include. You have never brought up a valid reason to remove on the talk page, so my revert yesterday with an edit summary that you requested is appropriate, so now it is your job to make the case on the talk page. This one revert is no basis to come here. Regarding the destination tables, I added perfectly appropriate sources, including local news, regional news, and industry news. These are in fact secondary sources. You are simply moving the goalposts and discounting what you just don't like to institute your own goal of removal of information from the article. I did post on the talk page regarding my edit, so why are you coming here instead of actually responding to me there regarding your concerns about the dozens of sources I added? Reywas92Talk03:41, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
I mentioned your reversion of my removal of the statistics tables because I believe it is part of a pattern of disruptive behavior, as outlined in my initial comment.
Please review WP:PRIMARYNEWS and WP:SECONDARY. (Links to one or both of these pages were previously provided above, on the article talk page, in the RFC closing summary, and at DRN.) I also recommend you read WhatamIdoing's comment in the RFC that starts with I think you will want to read. Sunnya343 (talk) 20:06, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
This is a poor-faith argument that moves the goalposts in order for you to eliminate the table altogether rather than allow for additional sourcing showing there is due coverage of routes. You specifically said in the RFC, "I would say then that the "Airlines and destinations" section should be based mainly on reliable independent sources." Yet that's exactly what I did! If now you want secondary sources that "involve generalization, analysis, interpretation, or evaluation of the original information", what generalization, analysis, interpretation, or evaluation of the original information do you want? Per WP:PRIMARYCARE, "Material based on primary sources can be valuable and appropriate additions to Wikipedia articles, but only in the form of straightforward descriptive statements that any educated person—with access to the source but without specialist knowledge—will be able to verify are directly supported by the source." That's exactly the case here for simple facts that an airline serves a route! This is just a provision of basic information about routes, not a critcal review of a something like "the proclamation and the diary", "a work of art", or "a direct witness" as described in "How to classify a source". Neither an airline's scheduling of a flight nor a newspaper's reporting of routes available has the disadvantages of "propaganda...omit...overstate...prejudices...unaware". This is an inappropriate twisting of the actual reasons to use secondary vs. primary sources in various cases. Whether from the airline or an independent reporter, the statements in the articles and the sources used are indeed "authoritative, high-quality, accurate, fact-checked, expert-approved, subject to editorial control, and published by a reputable publisher" (WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD), and to discount them serves no valid purpose. You point me to WhatamIdoing's comment, yet conveniently ignore the part where he says "Having said that, I agree with you that this kind of basic information isn't really what we need either a secondary or an independent source for." Reywas92Talk17:07, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
The requirement of secondary sourcing is from the RFC, not from Sunnya343. If you want to change that consensus I suggest working with A.B. on the wording of a challenge. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t° 17:19, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Reywas92, we edit by consensus. I believe the RfC outcome was incorrect but it still trumps your and my individual opinions. Please accept the RfC outcome and the deletion of that table until we get the RfC reviewed based on policies and guidelines. Until then, you're just going to lose and you might get sanctioned. A. B.(talk • contribs • global count)17:33, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Sunnya343, I disagree that Reywas92 is engaged in DISRUPTIVE editing worthy of any sanction. See the note at the top of this page: there is not a "chronic and unmanageable behavioral problem" that needs attention at WP:ANI. It's clear that Reywas92 disagrees with your edits and has reverted them. It's also clear that in the recent past, other editors have disagreed with your edits at that same article and also reverted them. --A. B.(talk • contribs • global count)00:50, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
You are right that multiple editors disagreed with my edit, and I invited all of them to participate at DRN. None besides you took part in the discussion portion of dispute resolution. True, they were not required to do so. However, when one of the editors, Reywas92, does not participate in the discussion and, after the dispute is closed, proceeds to revert my edit, where else am I supposed to go for assistance? Sunnya343 (talk) 01:29, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
I was briefly the moderator for the discussion at DRN that is being mentioned. I will summarize what happened at DRN, because not much happened there. The case was Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_240#Harry_Reid_International_Airport. The filing party was Sunnya343, who is also the filing party here. They had removed the lists of airlines and destinations from the article, citing the above RFC, which had been closed by User:ScottishFinnishRadish, and said that lists of airlines and destinations should only be included in airport articles if the lists were supported by reliablesecondary sources. Some editors disagreed with the closure of the RFC. It appeared that the other editors wanted either to ignore the RFC or to overturn the RFC. DRN is not the forum to challenge the close of an RFC. WP:AN is the forum for such challenges. I thought that one of the editors said that they would challenge the RFC close at WP:AN. I haven't seen a challenge to the RFC close at WP:AN since then. I closed the DRN thread because there didn't appear to be a content dispute of the sort that is handled at DRN.
I think that there are three options at this point:
1. Remove the lists of airlines and destinations, in accordance with the RFC.
2. Show that the lists of airlines and destinations are supported by secondary sources.
I am not indifferent but I have not challenged the close yet. I have been too busy to put together a thorough, well-documented challenge with diffs, policy citations, precedents, etc. I think our process deserves that kind of preparation. In the meantime, that RfC still stands. --A. B.(talk • contribs • global count)16:07, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
If the RFC stands the reinstatement of the table without non-primary sources is disruptive. Editors time is better spent formulating the challenge to the RFC close. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t° 16:11, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
It's a fair comment as I had to reread my comment twice, it is correct but confusingly constructed. Saying non-primary makes it sound like a double negative when it isn't. To be clearer the table shouldn't be reinstated without secondary sources, as per the RFC. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t° 17:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I strongly disagree with the closure of the RfC, and would be willing to assist preparing a challenge to it. I don't understand why or how a long-standing consensus with multiple previous discussions on the topic can be overturned with one RfC where the !votes themselves were rather marginal. JML1148(talk | contribs)08:59, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion
In this diffGrayfell (talk·contribs) re-adds money laundering accusations to the LEAD of BLP Erik Voorhees with edit summary stating "WP:CRYBLP. Nothing about this is a BLP issue and the content is already part of the article." That was his second addition of the same content to the article lead, with the first being here. I had previously noted to the editor that WP:BLPRESTORE applied to this type of allegation, and the editor clearly went on to reply at Talk:Erik Voorhees that my removal was "indistinguishable from PR". The editor had also made similar allegations at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Erik Voorhees (2nd nomination), including suggesting that I (or another editor) was a COI editor (which I find offensive and also denied). Adding money laundering accusations to the LEAD of a BLP article is exactly what BLPRESTORE was created for, we should be discussing accusations if they are deserving of this maximum weight. In this case it is my understanding that the article subject has never been charged with money laundering. As an aside the editor has also made odd edits at Bitcoin adding and reverting to re-add environmental claims to the first sentence of the lead, making me wonder if this is an WP:RGW issue. Anyhow, the subject of this ANI is the BLP issue and I note the Bitcoin issue to give some context. The very definition of contentious content is accusing a BLP subject of a crime, and then carrying on WP:TE to re-add it to the lead. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:42, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Apologies, after creating this ANI I subsequently noticed that the editor self reverted stating "Partial self revert. On second thought, not worth edit warring, but this is not a settled issue." Anyhow, the self revert text sounds like an intention to carry on this battle. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:53, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Have you considered the BLP Noticeboard to get a resolution/consensus on the content? Considering the partial self-revert there's probably no immediate user conduct issue, and with any luck solving the underlying content issue will clean up any unresolved issues relating to policy etc. Daniel (talk) 10:15, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Similarly, in Malaikottai Vaaliban, the IP added unsourced character names on 23 November 2023: [401][402], along with a fictitious reference [403]. The Times of India, known for copying content from Wikipedia and random social media handles, copied these names to their online news published on 27 December 2023. In the following day, the IP added that circular reference as citation. Since then, the IP is engaged in edit warring with that reference: [404][405][406][407][408][409]. Please check the IP's talk page too (comments now removed, see history). The film is made in secrecy and no plot details or character names have been revealed by the makers so far, other than Mohanlal's title role. The Doom Patrol (talk) 10:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The user SurinameCentral is blocking the contributions of others in relation to articles on Suriname and its borders. Please see Brazil–Suriname border. It is unreasonable to block maps that portray internationally recognized borders (images of disputed territory already exist in the article). They also seem to be engaged in many editing wars regarding this issue. SurinameCentral has flooded Wikimedia Commons with extremist maps so when you search "Suriname maps", you cannot obtain mainstream geography. They claim all maps of Suriname on Wikipedia must show disputed areas, yet they themselves have uploaded numerous maps that actually incorporate other countries (French Guiana or France and Guyana) and this is false geography. There is no case of territorial dispute filed by Suriname at the International Court of Justice. SOUTHCOM (talk) 19:03, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
the maps that wikipedia used for Suriname were misleading to the public since they completely disregarded the disputed areas. they should be shown in a neutral manner, i agree to that.
but neutrality rules should extend to Guyana as well, as many maps in articles of Guyana and French Guiana do not acknowledge the disputed areas that they have. and that is called misleading the public. SurinameCentral (talk) 19:10, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Both users here should calm down and stop using terms such as 'biased' and 'extremist' to describe one another, and assume good faith. The current map seems fine (does not include disputed territory as within Surinamese control) but SurinameCentral should cease calling anything that disagrees with his POV 'vandalism'. This looks like a content dispute
please see the recent editing history if the user SOUTHCOM recently. you will see for yourself what he is trying to do, and why i am then using that word. SurinameCentral (talk) 19:24, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the simple truth, Disputed borders are to be displayed in a neutral manner. Guyanese always liked to disregard that they have any dispute with Suriname, you cannot hide it. Google maps even shows the disputes neutrally.
This is SurinameCentral's Commons userpage. This is their userpage here. However this is very telling (I have the right to share the Surinamese vision. Since this platform is full of biased maps of Guyana, The Surinamese version will not be censored here. This is fairly obviously a NOTHERE issue. I would suggest a block of some type. Black Kite (talk)19:31, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Suriname's point of view cannot be Censored because you don't like it. disputed areas are displayed on many sources in a neutral manner, yet wikipedia still clings to Not neutral maps.
reverting edits that removes neutral maps and replaces it with biased ones, while there was plenty of discussion already about that, is battleground behavior? SurinameCentral (talk) 20:07, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
And regarding the last part of his comment, this user is claiming that i am showing false Geography? So all these sources are lies?
Again, since you did not understand the first time, being "right" is secondary here - this is purely behavioural. Perhaps read WP:RGW instead of spamming lots of links that no-one will read? Black Kite (talk)20:14, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
well i am sorry, but i cannot remain silent if you are referring to my user page and requesting blocks without even understanding what the problem is. i am sorry but i cannot just sit and watch when the entire Surinamese population who search something about their country and then go to see half maps of their country being presented. that is the reason why i am here, Yes i have made mistakes in the past, i have learned from them. i did not join wikipedia knowing all the rules. When i draw Attention to the maps of Suriname/Guyana/French Guiana that are are not neutral here, i guess i stepped on a lot of toes. again, this site claims neutrality, yet i miss that in a large part of the content. that is what i am trying to achieve here.
The content here is not the issue and not why you are on the cliff edge of being blocked (most likely indeffed). Your reaction to others disagreeing with it falls foul of WP:NOPERSONALATTACKS and WP:BATTLEGROUND. Wikipedia is not a game where people 'win'. You are not above the rules just because you are in the 'right' side of the debate. Just because in your eyes, someone else is in the wrong, that doesn't translate to you being confrontational about it. The issue here is your reaction to the content dispute not the dispute itself.
If you would like to remain unblocked, I suggest you do some drastic apologies for your behavior (not your opinion), make amends on things such as your homepage to remove confrontational statements and opinionated statements such as 'Suriname is not represented on wikipedia' (paraphrased) and you might just scrape away with a warning here. Otherwise, you are mere hours away from being indeffed. But have you went past the point of no return? Highly likely
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It's borderline. No clear statement of impending or threatened legal action but the language comes close. The edit was obviously disruptive but there have been none since. If there is any more of this I will block them. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:47, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago9 comments2 people in discussion
Summerdays1(talk·contribs·deleted contribs·logs·filter log·block user·block log) has been inserting unnecessary, trivial, and deliberately unconstructive edits on pages out of bad-faith on pages by singling out ones I've contributed to and edit-warring them in. On 25 December and 26 December, they restored WP:BOOSTER material I removed then moved onto pages I either recently edited, substantially contributed to, or promoted to GA Status, starting with the judge Elizabeth Branch then John Hart Ely, Dumas Malone, Quintin Johnstone and Joshua Katz, and continued with my more recent pages (all listed on their user log). These pages are wholly unrelated to the pages they've previously edited except the fact that they are the ones I've substantially contributed to.
User:Summerdays1 has made it clear that his edits are meant to be obstructive and in bad-faith. After reaching out on my talk page, he left a message that he later covertly deleted and followed it up:
To begin, are you able to show me places where you either made mistakes on here or where you learned something? You give the impression that you know something or more than most. I doubt you even know as much as I do.Summerdays1 (talk) 23:35, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Apparently you won't listen to me so I'll find an admin. You are a "wrecking ball"; if you feel you need to crusade "one man style" to remove information from colleges and "justifying it" with the few same Wikipedia principles... I'll point out that you have been reverted numerous times going back more than a year. I agree some university pages have "fluff". You aren't trying to correct stuff. You're removing too much material and you don't even attempt to remedy or fix articles. Be pro-active and less reactive. You damage this site and it has to end.Summerdays1 (talk) 18:16, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Then they've reached out to editors to WP:CANVASS, and the messages show the same pattern. First to Rrsimone, then to admin Favonian:
Guardian H has edited articles for about a year in political thought, judicial, and college topics. This user has been heavily reverted at times (Boethius, etc.) and still does not seek consensus or adapt in any fashion. I saw you are bilingual, cool. I will guess you can understand these nuances, perspectives, and topics. As I told GH no one I know is pro-boosterism. At the same time left unchecked, GH will wreak holy havoc on any academic article they see.Summerdays1 (talk) 19:58, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
User:Summerdays1 has not gone out to try and reach any sort of consensus on the pages I contributed to nor even to try to build a consensus on the pages regarding higher education. I've reverted some of these edits; as of today, they have reverted them back. They aren't here to improve articles and no longer here to build an encyclopedia. GuardianH (talk) 21:17, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Arguably just this message alone deserves a block of some length. Then there's the blatant canvassing. Summerdays1 clearly deserves some form of block. On the other hand, I am sceptical of the WP:HOUNDING claims. The supposed WP:BOOSTER material that Summerdays1 re-added doesn't seem to actually be booster material at all. The claim, The institution has been ranked 200–300 in the world as one of the best universities, doesn't appear to be BOOSTER. Bar the first sentence in the Yale edit, the content appears to be acceptable. The rest of the edits listed as supposed hounding all seem to be good-faith minor edits that generally make sense. Unless I'm missing something obvious, GuardianH's edits seem to be plain bad faith. JML1148(talk | contribs)04:57, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
@JML1148 Summerdays1 said pretty explicitly that I damage this site and it has to end and that I will wreak holy havoc on any academic article. It's hard to see these edits under innocuous summaries as something other than with the aim of creating irritation, annoyance, or distress (WP:HOUNDING) to provoke a response from me, making them in bad-faith. Why else would they go from singer and songwriters to higher education and legal academics? GuardianH's edits seem to be plain bad faith - I don't see how my edits are bad-faith when I have no agenda against universities in cleaning up boosterism. GuardianH (talk) 05:57, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
@GuardianH:Summerdays1 said pretty explicitly that I damage this site and it has to end and that I will wreak holy havoc on any academic article. I'm not denying that Summerdays1's conduct has been unacceptable, they clearly need to be punished for their blatant violation of WP:CANVASS and WP:CIV. Why else would they go from singer and songwriters to higher education and legal academics? People are allowed to change what articles they edit. Even if they are choosing to solely edit articles that you have had been substantially involved in, the edits in question appear to minor copyedits that appear to be generally positive changes, such as fixing minor grammatical mistakes and clearer language. As I have previously said, I don't see any evidence of Summerdays1 re-adding booster content or hounding you. JML1148(talk | contribs)07:17, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
@JML1148 Sorry, I was being unclear. A lot of the edits are were not constructive and added, rather than removed, errors:
These edits made the quality of writing in the article worse and were made without knowledge of citation placements, code format, etc., which is especially frustrating for the articles I worked to write and promote to GA status. Basically, when they said that I damage this site and it has to end and then went and undid/reverted my edits on articles — thats bad-faith editing with the intent to hound. GuardianH (talk) 07:53, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
@GuardianH: I must apologise. There are some actual improvements in the series of edits, however many of them contain obvious spelling mistakes and downgrades to the article. On face value, they seem relatively normal edits, but on a more thorough read, it's rather obvious that they are subversive minor edits that, on a cursory read - like I initially did - appear innocent. Indeed, all of the articles that they have done this to are ones that you have extensively edited. Separate from all of these issues, Summerdays1 appears to be practising a unique type of WP:ICHY, that comes down to, 'ignore the problem and it will eventually go away'. They removed Liz's comment asking them to comment on this page. I believe an indef ban on Summerdays1 is the best option. JML1148(talk | contribs)08:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion
HaughtonBrit since his block in January 2023 has been incessantly harassing me and evading his block through various accounts, IPs, proxies. All of them have the intention to tendentiously push a religious nationalist agenda on Wikipedia, primarily focusing on military history, including creating articles that include a Sikh military victory, or accentuating those victories through inflating enemy numbers/casualties and downplaying Sikh numbers and casualties and so forth.
These IPs typically geolocate to Pennslyania-[425] and [426] but as of late he has been using a lot of proxies to troll- just one example of this-[427].
Latest comment: 11 months ago8 comments6 people in discussion
Intially, this started out as a content dispute, but it this has evolved into a WP:SPAM and WP:COI issue. DonnyReisdorf (talk·contribs) keepsaddinganentry for, as he claims, a "well known and notable" YouTube personality to a sublist of an article. This YouTuber has no article and DonnyReisdorf has provided no references to support an addition in lieu of an article. DonnyReisdorf has also not attempted any discussion of any kind on why this personality is notable, except through his edit summaries, such as Added again Cav Trooper 19D who has 27,000 subscribers and nearly 8 million views on just youtube. Why someone keeps taken such a notable Cav Scout down. No he doesn't have a Medal of Honor, but to say he's not notable to our gen Z and millennial generation is ridiculous. He deserves to be mentioned as do others like Chief another Cav officer on youtube[432]. However, it's quite obvious from the content and edit summaries that DonnyReisdorf has added on here that he and this YouTube personality are one and same person, which explains his insistence on adding him to the list. I hoped that a warning would get him to stop, but I was wrong. Jauerbackdude?/dude.05:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
I've funded Wikipedia many times on top of it all and my wiki entries can be challenged this easily I'm done spending money here. Cab you tell me the threshold when a Cav Scout is notable? There is a line? I currently serve in the Cavalry and to the younger guys serving like myself Cav trooper n Chieftain are notable and known within our branch. Just because some retirees don't think so doesn't make it not true. DonnyReisdorf (talk) 03:48, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Who are you guys to determine who is relevant and who is not? Talk about an autocratic website. Its not like its not true whats i have added. Chieftain belongs on there too. We have no one that represents current Cavalry thats notable and those two guys are. This is bs DonnyReisdorf (talk) 03:39, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Yes, of course we believe that someone who adds eight mainspace edits a year has "funded Wikipedia many times." If you do withdraw your "support," somehow I figure we'll manage to survive. In the meantime, you have had an account for nine years, and in that time you ought to have learned that Wikipedia has policies and guidelines, and that those policies and guidelines are applied through consensus, because to answer your own question, who are YOU to solely determine who is relevant and who is not? While we're talking about autocratic behaviors. Ravenswing 07:51, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion
@Amakuru I'm reaally sorry, but non of the admin is aswering, but as an admin that fights vandalism, This user Any mail have been disrupting and removing sourced contents in articles, he has been warned by many editors but still continue the same thing. examples: [433][434][435][436][437][438][439] removed restored content[440] deleted the article[441][442][443][444] and many more. I hope care will be taken quickly. Yotrages (talk) 13:13, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Threatening behaviour, violation of consensus, canvassing
Latest comment: 11 months ago4 comments3 people in discussion
Regarding recent conduct by 182.255.41.207 (talk): This user has somehow embarked on a personal crusade against me because they want to include the fact that 17 Again (film) was Matthew Perry's final film role, even though the talk page discussion established a consensus against the inclusion of this information. The user in question has uttered threats of "prosecutions" (here and here) and is repeatedly stating that Matthew Perry would be upset and God would not forgive them if the information is not included on the article. The user has been warned not to utter threats, yet has uttered another threat while violating the consensus on the article by adding the information. Finally, the user has posted to 6 other users' talk pages about me in attempts to implement their will. The user is also saying that I am "so going down right now" and that "if bad stuff happens, [they are] 100% doomed" (here). This repeated conduct is making me very concerned. Could an admin please step in and put a stop to this? Rowing007 (talk) 16:35, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
I started writing this notice before they posted that reply; I believe it does not change the inappropriateness of their behaviour. The fact that they uttered another threat here ("or else") and their repeated references to angering a deceased actor, God, being "doomed", and the fact that they have been specifically targeting me have made me concerned for my safety and wellbeing. Rowing007 (talk) 17:00, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
@Rowing007: if you are legitimately concerned for your personal safety, please see WP:EMERGENCY. They are the response team for threats of violence and their email is monitored 24/7.
I think this editor's contribs need to be looked into. I think they are trying of push their POV by removing information related to Armenia and Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh.
These are from January 1 and 2, but this has been going on prior to this. I included only diffs from before this editor received a CTopics notice 31 December 2023.
Contribs before January 1 show the same pattern. I think the significant number of reverted edits shows there is a problem. // Timothy :: talk08:37, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
The third attempt took place both after I warned them and after Timothy opened this ANI thread. Other articles where they have made a repeat attempt to move after this ANI thread was opened include:
I'm not sure what the appropriate long-term response is yet, but given they have continued this behavior rather than respond to this ANI thread I think an article-space block would be appropriate to compel them to stop and respond. BilledMammal (talk) 11:58, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Comment: I think it is a suspect that Death Editor 2 was blocked on 11:05, 31 December 2023 (see open ANI at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Death Editor 2 and Nagorno-Karabakh conflict (again)) and RocketKnightX started editing this area with very similar POV, two hours later at 13:19 31 December 2023. Looking at their contributions, the switch in topics, and the timing, I think this may merit much closer inspection, I'm not an expert in this area, but someone who is should eval this and see if there is an issue. // Timothy :: talk12:57, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
I’ve also noticed recent disruptive behavior from this user, combined with a lack of communication. I can’t say how long it’s been going on since I had not been in the topic area for a few months prior to the past week or two, but this user seems to be everywhere at once, leading to not all their edits being noticed and promptly contested/reverted.
WP is built on discussion and consensus. Marching in blithely and continuing to push POV despite warnings needs to be dealt with accordingly.
Their flouting of CT and other policies and guidelines should merit a block. Just since this thread was created, they have made over a dozen edits to the topic area, including unilateral page moves. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 14:47, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
I too have seen unhelpful edits from this user. They still continue to make unneeded moves and removal of anything Armenian from relevant pages. Nintentoad125 (talk) 18:47, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
These are 2 rollbacks, within a day of each other, both on articles Fdom5997 had no recent history on. Fdom5997 almost certainly didn't randomly find both of these edits by chance, but by stalking my contributions log.
WP:WIKIHOUNDING:Even if the individual edits themselves are not disruptive per se, "following another user around", if done to cause distress, or if accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, may become a very serious matter and could result in blocks and other editing restrictions. I would like to highlight the word "tendentiousness." This happening again and again is incredibly tendentious.
Latest comment: 11 months ago7 comments3 people in discussion
@Borsoka:
Borsoka's violation- their persistent fabrication allegations.
Many attempts have been to commmuicate with Borsoka by multiple editors about the article and the difficulty of terminology of the time period, this has also been indepth discussion of citations used along with quotations provided. Netherless Borsoka has made good faith collobration impossible with persistent fabrication allegations that accuse uesers- without evidence of having pushing an agenda rather than exploring why choices were made regardiing text and sourcing. The user is attempting to unilateraly dismantle the article (at least it seems to be) even when given clear evidence meant to answer their concerns.
Sunriseshore (talk) 16:18, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
I really don't see any "bad faith accusations" here. Borsoka's comment (the one I assume you're referring to) stated This article do not have sources covering its whole subject. Editors have been fabricating its subject based on sources with no common subject. This seems like a reasonable argument to make, given many of the article's references aren't directly related, and I don't see any uncivil comments from Borsoka on the talk page. This is a content dispute, and I'm not sure what you expect administrators to do to fix it. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 16:27, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
The problem is that the article has not been fabricated, the word fabrication implies conspiracy, how is it possible to have a discussion when an editor starts out by accusing everyone involved of fabricating the article. Bear in mind that editors have been responding to Borsoka's comments yet their accusations contiune.
Borsoka has assumed bad faith, rather than good faith in going about this. If accusing everyone of 'fabricating' the article is not uncivil I am not sure what can count as uncivil. Sunriseshore (talk) 16:33, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
I think you're misunderstanding their use of the word "fabrication". I don't think they're referring to editors maliciously manipulating sources; I think they're saying that the article has sources on a mélange of topics, rather than all focused on one topic. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 16:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Word choice does matter, I concede that the user is concerned about the acuteness of sources (which is by itself very difficult for an article as broad as this one). I will also add that Borsoka has had their concerns responded to, with detail.
However lets look at the possible definitions of fabrication:
The act of framing or constructing; construction; formation; manufacture.
The act of devising or contriving falsely; fictitious invention; forgery: as, the fabrication of testimony; the fabrication of a report.
That which is fabricated; especially, a falsely contrived representation or statement; a falsehood: as, the story is a fabrication.
Given that the definitions of this word is clearly talking about intentional wrong doing why did Borsoka use this word if they were not trying to accuse editors of malicious behavior. It derailed in my view the entire conversation, given the implications of 'fabrication'. Sunriseshore (talk) 16:43, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
The very first definition defines it as "constructing; construction; formation; manufacture." I think that's what Borsoka was aiming for, and you should too. Again, I'm not sure what you expect administrators to do here. In disputes like these, we have two options: block and protect. At this point, no one's conduct is at the point of a block, and protecting the article will just kick the can down the road. Therefore, there's nothing for admins to do here. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 16:47, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
No, I have not referred to any conspiracy when saying that the article was fabricated. Just a side remark, my concerns have not been addressed so I am still convinced that the article contains original synthesis. Borsoka (talk) 17:12, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago4 comments4 people in discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Are you coming here because you received an unusual email from a new user? It's not just you; the matter is being dealt with by administrators and stewards. Sadly, there is not much that can be done at this noticeboard other than give long-term abusers more attention, so this thread exists only to make users aware that all possible efforts are being taken. It is probably best to remove future threads on the matter, if they are posted, as I have done with a preceding thread. Editors can change their own email settings in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-personal-email. Thank you. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|she) 10:14, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Note that if you're trying to clean the hundreds of piles of dog shit out of the user creation log, I have written an extremely violent script (User:JPxG/AsbestosGun.js) that adds a link to the sidebar (aptly named "ASBESTOS GUN") which will automatically fill block criteria (block account creation, block email, lock talk page, set expiry to indef, set reason to "Long-term abuse", and submit form). It's named "asbestos gun" because that's what it is: a hazard to life and limb. Use this with great caution. jp×g🗯️10:36, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
The whole thing is discussed with glee at Wikipedia Sucks (I am NOT a member of that disgusting site but the thread is viewable to all) where User:Bbb23sucks (blocked for blocked evading) is boasting about sending it. Doug Wellertalk12:56, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User Connoraol (talk·contribs) made what appears to be a racially discriminatory comment at the Teahouse. Within about 15 minutes, another user replied to the comment calling it out as just some casual racism there and I reverted both edits.
This is also the only edit that Connoraol has made, which leads me to wonder if this is some sort of sockpuppet or SPA. Bsoyka (t • c • g) 18:13, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Latest comment: 11 months ago7 comments3 people in discussion
I tried to edit a page. I received a notice that I was blocked? I have been pretty inactive, but I don’t know of any reason I should be blocked. Casprings (talk) 20:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
I just edited something in the wiki app. I was editing in Safari when I got the error. It says, “ You have been blocked from editing Wikipedia. Block will expire in 1 year.”Casprings (talk) 20:12, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
@Casprings: If you're getting weird block issues while editing in Safari, check to make sure that iCloud Private Relay is turned OFF. That setting makes Safari route its traffic through what is effectively an anonymizing proxy, and those are prohibited on Wikipedia. Writ Keeper⚇♔20:18, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Latest comment: 11 months ago8 comments5 people in discussion
User CoastRedwood began undoing edits I made and used the comment section to try to goad me into an argument with them regarding the edits. (123) Most of the edits I made were based on consensus or what I believed was consensus in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Years and related pages or because they were no longer accurate such as Artemis III being scheduled for end of 2025 but the article being used as a source refuting a 2025 launch date in its title and the Wikipedia article for Artemis 3 also casting doubt on the likelihood of a 2025 date. For other entries, they were entirely unsourced such as 2029 being the year that the International Olympic Committee will vote on which city will host the 2036 event and no source can be found validating that date.
Redwood, instead of trying to discuss with me why through good faith WP:EDITCON instead uses reversions to be combative with me instead of collaborating with me.
I engaged the user both on my talk page and their own to explain why these entries were removed but the user continued to make antagonizing edits that amount to WP:IDONTLIKEIT in regards to what content got removed.
In the midst of this, 33ABGirl joins in reverting edits I made without any discretion. While there are some entries which may warrant a discussion on inclusion, this user also reverted the above mentioned entries that were unsourced and accused me of lacking any consensus which is simply not true. A portion of the entries would be removed based on the fact that they are unsourced and no source can be found while consensus can be found regarding the inclusion of public domain related topics and eclispes.
Again, making no discretion about what I removed and why I removed some content, 33ABGirl posts a deprecating and threatening comment on my page telling me to think about my next edits and “warning” me about my conduct. To their credit, I did cite an essay that I falsely believed was being used as a rubric for what gets included in main year articles but that doesn’t mean consensus was reached in the past which was wrong for me to do.
I have created relevant requests for consensus on a few of these topics in WP:Years, but it is exhausting to get threatening and antagonizing comments from other users trying to goad me into edit wars, especially in these instances and I'm looking for a resolution because I should not be worried about reprisals for my edits and I shouldn't have to, in 33ABGirl's words, "think very carefully about what edits you make in the future" — Preceding unsigned comment added by PaulRKil (talk • contribs)
I poked my head into the revision history of a year article recently and it was pretty wild -- people are going very hard over there and the whole area could probably stand to be given some more administrative attention. jp×g🗯️20:40, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
That would be appreciated. In the last week, it has gotten very out of hand which is common during the new year but it has never been at this level in my experience. PaulRKil (talk) 20:46, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
It really does need administrator involvement. I've tried to sound the alarm a few times over the last year and a half at the village pump and here at ANI. WikiProject Years has a walled-garden problem, and this area attracts a lot of editors who attempt to enforce sweeping arbitrary standards in what can and cannot be included in these articles without regard for due weight. The last time it came to a head was at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1119#Long term ownership at WikiProject Years. 33ABGirl was correct to try and shut down the most recent attempt to enforce such arbitrary standards. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:31, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
I disagree that any arbitrary standards are being enforced here. There should not be an “international notability” condition and I personally had clashed with the user that had gotten a T Ban but at the same time there should be guidance on what warrants inclusion in main year articles.
Solar eclipses and video game releases are typically never included in year articles. There’s no mention of them in articles like 2001 where there’s less frequent editing and is objectively of better quality than more recent years.
Also this is aside from the fact that this user reverted all of my edits, including ones I removed for not being reliably sourced per your comment in my RfC.
I find the fact they did that then threatened me on my page to be uncivil not to mention CoastRedwood antagonizing me to begin with and it appeared 33ABGirl had a plan to report me for edit warring if I were to do any further edits on those pages, even if they were edits concerning entries that had no reliable source. PaulRKil (talk) 00:10, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
About a year ago I wound up blocking someone from portal namespace for three months for similar "international notability"-related edits on the Portal:Current events pages for individual dates. It's not just the Years and Dates articles and their associated projects. Daniel Case (talk) 21:27, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
I don’t care for international notability, but I am for respecting consensus or trying to establish consensus for inclusion. PaulRKil (talk) 21:38, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
I was alerted partially to this discussion by 33AB on my talk page, but more so to an SPI involving an editor who was TBanned from years about 8 months ago on ANI at the Long-Term ownership abuse thread listed above (I'll refer to it as "the ANI thread" hereon out) by Thebiguglyalien (TBUA). The drama from last year – I've summed my opinion up in an essay which I've written @ User:InvadingInvader/Against international notability. Ultimately I agree with Paul on the content side – maintain some editorial oversight but also do our best to follow DUE. I would agree that there needs to be some level of administrator involvement (preferably not an admin who has edited on YEARS articles extensively) with managing the giant shenanigans on what's going there. I do feel however that all of it should be governed by the DUE Weight policy, and NOT by some arbitrary standard. We had an RFC on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Years (see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Years/Archive 18#RFC: Making things official with regard to inclusion on main year pages). This is also the best in favor of current PAG, which I do not entirely think are followed with independent standards combined with people complaining that entires which would be in compliance with DUE in particular are "Domestic" (see the Barbara Walters RFC referred to both in the ANI thread and my essay). InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 03:32, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
I think there’s a big issue with extreme opinions on each side. Relying on so-called “International notability” saw people calling for the exclusion of pretty significant events such as the Chinese plane crash in 2022 and the Capitol riots in the United States and Brazil in 2021 and 2023, respectively.
On the other side of this, people can abuse WP: Reliable to include things that are not particularly notable. For example, there will be countless reliable sources covering every annual sporting event like the Super Bowl, the UEFA tournaments, eclipses, and award shows.
Would we really want year articles overrun with these types of entries? I think it is reasonable that the answer would be no and that seems to be the attitude toward some of these entries such as with things going into public domain. or why I am trying to gather consensus on other topics.
The first user creates a draft Draft:FloppaCube616 which is rejected quickly. As if they were blocked, they created a second account to create Draft:FłoppaCube616 (note the replacement of the l).
Can someone please address Tagishsimon’s ongoing incivility, biting, and failure to assume good faith towards people asking questions at the teahouse? I notice looking through his talk page that he has never once responded to a concern raised there regarding his conduct. I hope I’m reporting this properly, and I think there is a policy requiring me to notify Tagishsimon, which I’ll do but I don’t know the right template (hopefully someone can fix it for me). Cynidens (talk) 23:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Forgive me, but I don't understand how that's relevant to the diffs I've sent. I of course completely agree with WP:DENY, but the diffs I've presented show that quite a few people have expressed concern about his bitey conduct towards people at the Teahouse or at AfC. No one expects him to respond to the obviously NOTHERE & troll messages, but there are plenty of good-faith editors, or at least people who we ought to assume good faith of, in those links. I'm sorry if this is causing trouble or wasting time or anything; I've never made a comment at ANI before (thankfully). I'm just trying to address Mattdaviesfsic's request for diffs, and I don't wish to be involved further. sawyer * he/they * talk01:59, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
First, I want to keep in mind I'm relatively new and certainly imperfect in comparable ways, and I don't want to dissuade Tagishsimon; I think they are very good in their work in the Teahouse overall.
That said, having seen patterns represented by the above examples, it often feels like they do not particularly enjoy volunteering at the Teahouse. If they have tone problems that need to be addressed—I don't feel comfortable saying whether they do—they are of a sort where the line is never crossed in any given thread, but perhaps it is often straddled when one zooms out. Sometimes, it may seem hostile or bite-y from the perspective of a total newcomer. Remsense留07:45, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
@Remsense: may seem hostile or bite-y from the perspective of a total newcomer - well it clearly seems hostile and bite-y from the perspective of experienced editors too. Also, see my comment below. Deltaspace42 (talk • contribs) 12:07, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
(I've tried to phrase my specific thoughts in as unassuming a way as possible, I don't mean for them to detract from anything anyone else has to say.) Remsense留12:11, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
That message seems completely appropriate; your post was indeed pointless. After you discovered your idea didn't work, you had nothing useful to contribute; yet you did so anyhow. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 13:47, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Well, to be fair, TS's answer didn't provide a solution, either. I've often wished people at Teahouse wouldn't answer questions they can't provide an actual solution for, as other hosts may assume they can skip over that question because they see it's received responses and assume its been resolved. Valereee (talk) 14:44, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
@Bbb23, can you clarify that by DENY you mean "this clearly is a troll making baseless complaints"? Because I could absolutely see someone, especially someone new, feel reluctant to complain here because of possible repercussions. The base problem seems to have some validity, to me, and @Tagishsimon appears to be ignoring this. Am I missing something? Valereee (talk) 13:57, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Not precisely. I was accusing the OP of being a troll/sock whose first and only real edit (their second edit was to notify Tagishsimon) was to post a complaint at ANI about an editor with no diffs and yet wikilinking policies and guidelines. My assumption is they have something against Tagishsimon but can't do anything about it because they are already blocked. I have no comment about the complaints of others about Tagishsimon's conduct at the Teahouse, but the OP has achieved their purpose.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:06, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
hey i actually kinda have a horse in this gba barbie game
from what i've seen, i don't think tagishsimon's big issue in the teahouse is outright unhelpfulness, but a lack of civility and a tendency of telling people that they've done wrong in one message, and only telling them what they've done wrong later on, if ever
except in a question i asked about changing my signature that is in archive 1206, but i can't get that archive to load for some reason, but tagishsimon's answer was "the colors are bad, change it", which while true (i checked, the contrast was kinda not good), was admittedly really unhelpful as that was already step 2 of fixing the sig, but i'm not a helpful asker myself, so i won't really hold it against them
that aside, i think tagishsimon would be fine if they answered questions right away and a bit more bluntly, and went to their talk page sometimes
I've always taken the approach that the Teahouse should be a place where, as annoying as you may think a question is, a host or editor should always respond in a knowledgeable and kind way. It has been an honor to be a host at the Teahouse though I haven't been there as much lately. It's very important to keep that page free of bite-y and snide comments. New and inexperienced editors are always looking for help and we advertise the Teahouse as a place to go to receive advice in a relaxed environment where hosts and good faith editors are ready to help them. Regardless of what happens with this I would encourage anyone responding at the Teahouse and reading my words to remember that every user is a human being and most think they are doing what's right (good faith). If you are feeling like you can't respond with knowledge and kindness then take a break and let someone else respond. It's okay to not respond. --ARoseWolf13:21, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
I agree with ARoseWolf here. Teahouse responses should be both informative and kind. Sometimes editors burn out dealing with similar stripes of ignorance over and over (this happened to a very long-term and respected ex-admin not too long ago). This is the converse of the related problem of relatively new editors giving inaccurate advice to extremely new editors, which also manifests at the Teahouse.Tagishsimon's tone isn't something I'd start an ANI about, but I have considered on multiple occasions making a request on their usertalk to practice a little more kindness. Folly Mox (talk) 14:01, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
The problem seems to be that multiple users have done that, and been ignored.
Teahouse can become very frustrating because those working there respond to the same things over and over again. But for the people coming in there to ask that same tedious question you've answered 1000 times, it's not their 1000th time asking it. When you start to feel like you can't answer that same tedious question one more time without BITING, when multiple people have raised the same concern, it's time to take a break from hosting. Valereee (talk) 14:30, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
As someone who has a horse in this race, i had a draft decline today by him/her/they for "bullshit-citing" which is wholy unusefull for me and i disagree as the citations are accurate for the draft in my persepective. I beleive he/she/it might have declined it souly on the basis there are alot of citaitons. TagKnife (talk) 13:45, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
The manner Tagishimon did so is in no way appropriate. Being right isn't a license to say something like This seems to be a full-on WP:SYNTHspam article for someone's new code, replete with huge roster of bullshit-baffles-brains cites.Catalk to me!14:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Yes, this comment was really unhelpful for me, and I had a discussion with deadspace who helped me understand what changes were needed and the issue with the citations.
Along with that Tagishsimon dropped by a left and another unhelpful comment in the Teahouse where me and deadspace discussed said topic. His comments carry an unhelpful nature and a belittling attitude. TagKnife (talk) 15:25, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
I admit it: I am ok with people being slightly rude to people who have as their sole contributions to Wikipedia self-promotional cryptospam. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
You're entitled to your tastes, but we're not concerned with your tastes. The (class of) behavior still contravenes site guidelines. Remsense留15:43, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
It is better to be honest. Sometimes the 'teahouse style' of supportive communication fails because the new editor comes away with the impression that they can make a few small changes and get their improper article approved. That seems to be what TagKnife has just said above. It is more kind to be clear and get them to stop wasting their time on what will almost certainly be a fruitless endeavor. MrOllie (talk) 16:46, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
This is getting off-topic, so I won't belabor the question, but—I suppose I don't understand at all the point that's being made here. I wish this sounded less glib, but if you don't think the Teahouse approach is worthwhile, then isn't the correct position "don't volunteer at the Teahouse"? It's not like there's some larger issue that's radiating from it. Not liking the way the Teahouse is meant to handle new users isn't an excuse to try to "tough love" newcomers within. If that's not the point, then it's a point that's irrelevant for this discussion. Remsense留17:07, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
@MrOllie: I believe it is always possible to be both honest and polite at the same time, without resorting to more aggressive tone. "...almost certainly be a fruitless endeavor" - you never know, you can't say that before you thoroughly search for the sources yourself and come to the conclusion that the subject is not notable and it would be a waste of time to try and create an article about the subject. And even if you know that there are not enough reliable sources on the Internet to support the notability, you could just say something like "I've searched for reliable sources, but wasn't able to find enough coverage and came to the conclusion that the subject might not meet notability criteria. Feel free to search the sources yourself, but bear in mind that this task would be very difficult." I think the response like this would be both honest and polite at the same time. Deltaspace42 (talk • contribs) 17:34, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
As a Teahouse regular, I can say that I'm not impressed by some of Tagishsimon's behaviour displayed at the Teahouse, a lot of which straddles on WP:CIVIL. I can accept occasional blatant tactlessness over at the Help Desk, but that's something I think we should shy away from at the Teahouse. This isn't the first time someone's been dragged over their behaviour at the venue on here, though I certainly hope this is the last time. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:37, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
I have made 10,598 edits to the Teahouse, and take that welcoming space very seriously. We should bend over backwards to welcome, assist and gently correct good faith new editors who make commonplace errors. It is also true that Teahouse hosts as a group need to deal with new editors who are here to promote either themselves or an employer/client, or to non-neutrally push a point of view. The challenging task for the Teahouse host is to craft a response to such new editors that is both polite and firm. The new editor must be informed in clear, unambiguous terms that they are welcome to contribute neutral, verifiable content, but that they will simply not be permitted to promote anything or grind any axes. I think that Tagishsimon has a good understanding of our policies and guidelines, but too often. the editor forgets the "polite" aspect of the "polite but firm" formula. I hope that the editor gets the message. Cullen328 (talk) 08:23, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Earlier I decided I wouldn't get too involved in this, but having seen the above discussion and Tagishsimon's subsequent activity, I'm concerned. He never responded, either on his talk page or on here directly, which tracks with his long, consistent pattern of completely ignoring other editors' feedback on his behavior. As Tenryuu stated, he seemingly waited until this discussion was archived and continued on the Teahouse like nothing happened, despite Valereee asking him to take a break from hosting. His attitude has not changed either, looking at this comment on the Teahouse made ~6 hours after Valereee's comment on his talk page. Seems like a textbook case of flying under the radar. sawyer * he/they * talk03:31, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Well since I was up above saying this didn’t look so bad: that post is again substantively correct, but making it was a dumb and inappropriate response to the situation, and going back to TH at all was a very bad idea. I would support a partial block. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 12:04, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
I was thinking of the same lines, but I was going to wait for a response from Tagishsimon before taking action. I'm disappointed by this, as Simon has been very helpful to me in the past in working on articles, but WP:BITE is still an active guideline. As others have said, if you're getting angry at vandals and spammers, the problem is at your end. Either they're good faith but misguided, or they're bad faith and enjoy watching you taking their bait. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)12:21, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
Not to mention, even if some are acting in bad faith, which I don't believe is the case for the most part, they are human beings and we have ways to deal with bad faith activity that do not end in a positive contributor to this community and encyclopedia being brought before AN/I. It also does not leave the misguided wondering why they asked anything at the Teahouse and reluctant to ask any more questions they may have. It's bad for the Teahouse and bad for the encyclopedia/community. And worse still, all of the biting, snide and unhelpful comments are not necessary. Most hosts and other editors handle questions quite well and civilly. --ARoseWolf13:01, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
it seems tagishsimon's comments around the teahouse (and specifically only the teahouse, their contribs in other talk pages have been either templates or not actually uncivil), have been a bit bitier than before, which is a shame, because i believe the answers were correct
It is certainly not the case that Tagishsimon is only uncivil at the Teahouse. He has been incredibly rude to me at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red on numerous occasions, despite other editors reprimanding him. I can't be bothered to dig out the diffs, but they are much worse than any of the links I've followed above. I think he just can't help himself. Johnbod (talk) 15:35, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
my bad, i was only looking at the most recent examples (as in the ones from after this thread was opened), so consider that support... not actually changed in any way, because this mostly means they have more things to explain
Wow it's a good thing you linked my talk-page, otherwise people would have trouble finding it. As far as I know I've never interacted with you before, I just read AN/ANI for a perverse kind of entertainment. Following your comment, I browsed ten sections of the WT:WiR archives for posts by Tagishsimon. They were overwhelmingly polite and constructive in those archives, including several hundred comments. You, on the other hand, post much less there, but in my browsing I found two instances of you being a dick, in ways that specifically indicate the hypocrisy of your complaint here. Please don't be a hypocritical dick. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 01:20, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Both of you stop. We're only keeping this open waiting for TS to come in. No other commentary is needed, and snarky remarks are particularly unhelpful. Valereee (talk) 01:24, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Seriously Valereee? "two instances of you being a dick, in ways that specifically indicate the hypocrisy of your complaint here. Please don't be a hypocritical dick". What does it take? Johnbod (talk) 17:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
@Johnbod, for me personally, it takes someone not stopping when I tell them to stop when they're exchanging increasingly unhelpful remarks. I get that you're saying the last thing they said was worse than the previous thing you said. You both engaged in escalation. My comment was after their most recent escalation, so obviously that escalation...well, escalated it above your previous escalation. I told you both to stop, and btw, the IP actually apologized. Valereee (talk) 19:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
"Actually apologised" to you - conspicuously not to me. But evidently you think that's fine. Is this you escalating now, or me? Johnbod (talk) 03:37, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
I forecast Tagishsimon will resume making edits again once this gets archived, with a 10% chance of appealing/complaining the pblock. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
I suppose that will be less of a problem now that the pblock is in place to prevent them from returning to the Teahouse, but still the refusal to engage here indicates a lack of respect for the concerns of fellow editors. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 23:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
It seems as of this revision Tagishsimon has resumed editing. For my part I'm happy if this gets closed as they're no longer going to negatively affect the Teahouse, though if further action should be taken for their refusal to engage with other editors I'll endorse it. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 06:52, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
SailingInABathTub is not a prolific volunteer editor. Before December 2023, they were sparsely active; until then, their main focus was paid work. On 18 December 2023, they made this request based on an automated invitation sent by the NPP team (perhaps based on edit count and some AfD votes). Accordingly, @Callanecc: gave them NPP on a trial basis, which was fair. However, neither Callanecc nor the NPP invitation team knew that they were a paid editor and would be biased when reviewing articles. We have cases where paid editors have abused such rights, creating a large backlog again, so there is no real benefit in awarding advanced rights to paid editors, especially when SailingInABathTub has made only 3,853 edits (see this discussion), and the majority of their article creations are WP:LUGSTUBS about plants from Brazil. We have removed such rights in previous cases, see: User:Elias_Ziade and Nehme1499.
Nonetheless, there are some instances where SailingInABathTub's article creations seem odd. I found one on a quick look: the creation of a dubious notability company article without disclosing (Depher). Also, as an NPP reviewer, they have made some errors as well, such as reviewing a possibly non-notable food vendor Imoro Muniratu and nominating a major neighbourhood for deletion Kakrail. Based on that, I'd recommend the community to remove their NPP rights. Thank you. 2.50.191.75 (talk) 12:52, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for notifying me of this discussion. I have reviewed a number of number articles since being granted temporary NPP rights. Most of these pages I have tagged with improvement templates, and some with deletion notices. It is likely that not every page creator will have been happy with these decisions. I find it odd that this request has been made from an IP, and I think that it is only fair that you disclose your relationship with Wikipedia. If helpful I am happy to present my reasoning behind any of my page creations and NPP review decisions. SailingInABathTub~~🛁~~13:18, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Comment - What is the admin action being requested? If they have been given NPP on a trial basis, then this is feedback for those running NPP, and not a matter for admins. I noticed this because this editor and I had different views on an AfD that just closed, but AfD is there precisely so that a discussion can be had, so there is no problem with a reviewer taking a case to AfD. It was clear in the AfD that the editor had read the sources and considered them carefully, so I would say they are doing the job well, and would feed that back to the NPP team. This section should be closed. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:38, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
I'll look into this, but fundamentally we need to give latitude to paid editors who follow the ToU. There are a huge number of editors who do not, and the only counter we have is paid editors who do - yet their numbers are very small. - Bilby (talk) 13:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
There is no policy violation since paid edits are disclosed, and I think there should be no prejudice against SailingInABathTub's for requesting NPP, since it was done based on an invitation. That being said, I think some advance permissions, including NPP, should be off limits for any paid editor, and that NPP should be revoked here. MarioGom (talk) 16:51, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
To add some more color here: we repeatedly assure people contacting Wikipedia on VRT that admins and NPP are not paid, and that there is no way they can hire one for paid editing or reviews. Having editors holding NPP and doing paid editing undermines trust in the project, and is a reputation ticking bomb given the (very common) VRT scenario I'm describing. I don't think I should be replying at VRT saying "well, new page reviewers are not supposed to accept money for reviews, but technically we have new page reviewers with Upwork profiles advertising Wikipedia services". It's just wrong. Again, this is without prejudice against SailingInABathTub, which I think is acting in good faith and in a policy-compliant way in terms of PAID disclosure. MarioGom (talk) 16:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Agree that this is a problem for precisely this reason: we repeatedly assure people contacting Wikipedia on VRT that admins and NPP are not paid, and that there is no way they can hire one for paid editing or reviews. I don't think that properly disclosed paid editing conflicts with being an NPP reviewer per se, but being available for freelance editing work sure does. -- asilvering (talk) 03:17, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
As far as I am aware there's no current requirement under NPP that a new page reviewer must not be a paid editor, only that they cannot be paid to review pages. - Bilby (talk) 10:02, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
As I said, I do not think there is any policy violation. But NPP is a trust position, and we have judgement calls that go beyond a policy checklist. If paid editors getting NPP (or autopatrolled, for that matter) are going become a thing, I guess we have no shared understanding here, and we might need an RFC about setting this in policy. MarioGom (talk) 22:44, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
FWIW I don't think there's anything wrong with Depher - I actually thought about creating an article myself a while back after watching a BBC news report about it. As a CIC rather than a commercial enterprise it is also unlikely to be the type of company that would be linked to paid editing. Black Kite (talk)15:00, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
I don't think any paid editors should have NPR. Along with autopatrolled, it's one of the most sought-after rights by bad faith paid editors because it allows them to remove their articles (or a colleague's articles) from the main point of scrutiny we have on paid-for spam or puff pieces. That's why one of the formal criteria for NPR is reviewing pages solely on a volunteer basis. I'm not saying that SailingInABathTub is a bad faith paid editor, but the risk is too great. Independently, I also already had concerns about SailingInABathTub's understanding of the deletion process based on our exchange at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Faculty of Archaeology. I'm in favour of removing the right, but won't do so because of our exchange at that AfD. – Joe (talk) 09:07, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
Detroit IPs have a daily edit-warring pattern on Eurhythmics chronology
For five days in a row, someone from Detroit has been changing the numbered sequence of Eurhythmics albums under the assumption that the film soundtrack 1984 (For the Love of Big Brother) is number 4. Subsequent albums are incorrectly bumped up a number.[464][465] These edits are reverted every day because they are wrong.
Done I've blocked them from article space for two weeks. If they come up with a good explanation and/or indicate a willingness to stop edit warring and engage constructively, I'm happy for anyone to reduce/remove the block. WaggersTALK16:36, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
User:Doherty93 ignoring content policies, edit-warring, & making personal attacks
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Doherty93 has been edit-warring and more generally violating the verifiability policy at Masjid al-Qiblatayn (Somaliland). I've also opened an SPI about some suspicious activity on this article, but SPIs take time and the behaviour has worsened since then:
Last week I added a maintenance template to the article because a central claim of the article (the mosque's age) was sourced to a travel guide, which is clearly not a reliable source ([466]). After a few days, Doherty93 began to repeatedly remove the template without discussion, often using the excuse of replacing it with a citation to sources that do not in fact support the statement, or even say anything about the topic at all: [467], [468], [469], [470]. (You can check the last citation yourself, CIA handbook, and the full text of the JSTOR ref before that says nothing either.) More recently, they added citations to non-reliable websites ([471]).
After the first edit, I posted a standard notice about on their user talk page ([472]). After the 2nd time they added irrelevant sources (3rd edit overall), I explained the issue on the talk page more directly ([473]). On their user talk page they then falsely claimed that the sources support the statement and asserted that their WP:OR is "known fact" ([474]). I've since tried to further explain the problems (and warned them about reporting things here) and tried get them to engage constructively on the talk page: [475], [476], [477], [478]). They've ignored or dismissed these and continued with the edits mentioned above (and others), despite reverting several times and restating the problem (see page history).
Additionally, as of today, their responses and one edit summary have turned into personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith: [479], [480], [481]. My last reply attempted to get them to stop this and get back on topic ([482]), to no avail ([483]).
Given these latest responses, I currently don't see any way forward to convince them to edit by consensus or to even use sources correctly. R Prazeres (talk) 19:39, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
Why are you lying? My sources are from the US and UK government. Stop your nonsense. Your dissenting views are based on envy and racism. Doherty93 (talk) 19:42, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
You was questioning and doubting and there is nothing to doubt. It’s you who want to make the article obscure and misleading. Doherty93 (talk) 19:43, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
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User:Abdallasom renaming to a new user account - needs fixing and warning
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User:Abdallasom, with a history of vandalism and warnings, has moved his account to User:G5050, a pre-existing (unknown) account that looks like sockpuppetry to me. I am on my way out so I do not have the time to fix, warn the user, and educate about the proper way to change username. Can somebody take a look? Thanks. -- Alexf(talk)21:41, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
G5050 is not an account, on this project or any other. I see no evidence of socking, but I also see nothing but vandalism, for which Abdallasom is now blocked.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:09, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Appears to have been a user page + user talk page move, but it got deleted and recreated back at the original name. ChaotıċEnby(t · c)01:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
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Perhaps the now-blocked IP was helpfully pointing us to their pattern of unconstructive edits on that article in the hope that we might take administrative action. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
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Sadly I am having to file a report due to the disruption and homophobic comments from User:Bgsu98. On Dancing on Ice, I fixed a clear mistake but this user continues to revert and falsely claims the edits as Disruptive on an edit summary, continuing to refer to a male figure skater as a poof, an offensive gay slur. Manipulative Maniac (talk) 03:02, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
No, you don't, and you are so obviously distorting what the editor said that I'm embarrassed at even having to state that. Drmies (talk) 03:04, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Oh, I knew it was her. I'd just fired up the desktop to file the SPI request; meanwhile, you'd already taken care of it. Bgsu98(Talk)03:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
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Please take a look at the user Dopplegangman, he is repeatedly being disruptive, tendentiously editing pages to promote religious glorification, and edit warring.
Tendentious edits- On the page Origin of Martial Arts, he replaced the word "India" with "Punjab", nevermind being unsourced, it's attributing the achievements and history of an entire subcontinent filled with hundreds of diverse regions to one state. It's the equivalent of attributing the history and achievements of Europe in a certain field solely to Germany or France, it's clearly religious and regional chest thumping and disruptive.
On the page Nanakpanthi, he added an unsourced claim that 200 million people are followers of and have some level of reverence for his religion. Unsourced and again religious aggrandizing.
On the page martial race, he again added an unsourced claim inflating his religion's contributions to the Indian armed forces.
but any search online will support my claim as the oldest manuscript dates back to 1492
the Indian or Punjabi martial arts claim was a mid edit as I was changing other words inside to Punjabi as many sources state this when you talk about where the Queen Elizabeth was born you would say England not Europe as well as this using the word Indian is diminishing the help that people from punjab and central Asian that helped with the martial arts like BodiDharma I believe it should show what ethnicities contributed to what as when those martial arts where created India was never one country or one ethnicity this diminishes what the empire who lived in those regions or the people did you would say wing chin came from the eastern world would you
The claim that guru Nanak was Khatri or born a Hindu is supported by no definitive evidence that dates back to his time so I was stating a fact that it shouldn’t be included I never stated he came from another ethnic group or religion like this man claims I only state there is no evidence to support the claim
for the NanakPanthi Wikipedia used to state there were around 100-200 million members of this religion so I was just readding it I do not belong to this faith like this man claims
I am not a Sikh but for the claim on the deaths and casualties it is not known how many died and the source that give the number is not verified and does not say his source but many historians suggest the number was closer to 2000 but I forgot to source it
Thsi man is a clear Liar and I will soon find the evidence to prove this
The response in relation to the publication year of the Bhagavad Gita is a pretty clear CIR issue, whether with respect to the alternate source proferred, or the ludicrous claim that oldest manuscript dates back to 1492. Britannica dates it to the 1st or 2nd century CE ([485]), and our own article cites several academic sources detailing robust discussion over when it was published, with dates ranging form 500 BCE to ~ 800 CE. There's room to argue that our presentation in the lead of that article may be lacking, but Dopplegangman's baseline assertion here is absurd, and their admission that they don't know how to cite sources properly is a nonstarter. The apparent offsite canvassing of complaints against Suthasianhistorian8, rather than bolstering Dopplegangman's case, undermines it, as do the repeated accusations of lying this discussion and elsewhere. I think a topic ban from South Asian topics is warranted, and would have already imposed it myself in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator had Dopplegangman appropriately been made aware of WP:CTOPS prior to this incident. signed, Rosguilltalk16:25, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
the oldest manuscript of the bhagavad gita that is still in tact and together dates back to 1492and is kept in the Bodleian Library, Oxford I didn't state that this is true or that this is the only reasonable explanation but it is an idea shared by people and kept together with evidence to support this theory so I thought this would be reasonable to add it to the wiki page to help people come to there own idea about what is true this is the reason to have a wiki page to spread truth and help people come to their own ideas about topics with the help of evidnce.to the claim I knew how to add sources before this incident is untrue you cannot prove it and even if you could I was using visual editing on my phone where I think you cannot add sources using this Dopplegangman (talk) 17:37, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
This edit does not inspire hopes of competence, whether looking at source quality or to the extent that the added text flows with the rest of the pre-existing text. signed, Rosguilltalk18:10, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
So because I can’t edit Wikipedia sources that well I’m incompetent is that incompetent for a new user or is it incompetent for a man to devote his life to internet edits and waste his limited time on earth or is it incompetent for an old user to point out mistakes by a new user not to help them out but to make an unneeded comment.take a look at yourself your a full time Wikipedia editor with no life Dopplegangman (talk) 19:49, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
I have blocked Dopplegangman for two weeks for disruptive editing in general, and personal attacks and harassment in particular. Telling other editors to "get a job" and criticizing them for the amount of time they spend volunteering to build the most comprehensive encyclopedia in history is way out of line. Cullen328 (talk) 20:23, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
I'm stepping back from taking any admin actions here due to the PAs, but I will note that I still stand by my call for a topic ban in addition to the above block, and that it is now within an admin's CTOPS discretion to unilaterally impose that sanction, as the diff I linked came after the receipt of a CTOPS notice. signed, Rosguilltalk21:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Support site ban or indef block per the Reddit posts from 4 months ago (linked above) which is off-wiki harassment, not just canvassing. Add in the the personal attacks, POV pushing, the substantive CIR and lack of sufficient English fluency... a tban or two-week block is not enough. Mostly though because of the off-wiki harassment, that should be a zero-tolerance insta-indef. Levivich (talk) 21:25, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
The next block (which will likely be required in 15 days!) should be indefinite. I had blocked this user for three days and immediately after that block expired they got back to more disruption. Don't think we need to debate topic or site bans, this is a combination of NOTHERE and CIR that should just get an indefinite block. As for the reddit posts, most of India related content suffers from off-wiki canvassing on Reddit/Quora/Twitter etc, nothing new there.—SpacemanSpiff23:43, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Support indef block or site ban: personal attacks, assuming bad faith, off-wiki canvassing, conflict of interest, original research, demonstrably false information, lack of competence in the English language; and I'm just naming things that the user demonstrated in this thread alone. The previous block ended with no change in behaviour, time for an indef block or site ban. Can't have these people here. JM (talk) 00:55, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
Because I actually have a life off-Wikipedia, I have been inactive for about five hours. Based on the additional discussion since then, I have changed the block term to indefinite. Cullen328 (talk) 02:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
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Help! I have completely screwed up an edit to change the name of the article USS Nezinscot. The designator (1908) is not needed because their was only one U.S. Navy ship named Nezinscot. Please correct my mistake and I promise I will be more careful in the future. The move page is not idiot proof as I can attest! Cuprum17 (talk) 15:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
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Latest comment: 11 months ago15 comments7 people in discussion
There have been multiple previous RFC's on the talk page for SpaceX Starship where people continue to dispute the status of the first and second test flights (see archives 6,7,8,9, and 10) and the talk page as of now. User:Redacted II in particular has been the most notorious of them, trying to propose new "classifications" for the status of the flights and whatnot even though consensus was already reached and reinforced multiple times, and I even moved the {{round in circles}} banner to the top of the page in order to try to warn people about this. I consider the situation fatally destructive as it stands now as Redacted II has been warned numerous times before, and I even reported them on the Administrators' Noticeboard before in hopes that they would actually learn, but they're still going at it. DASL51984(Speak to me!)04:53, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
DASL51984, If you think the latest section "adding mention of the various classification of IFT-1 and IFT-2" was an attempt to reclassify either flight from failure to something else, then you are very, very wrong.
The primary goal was to lend due weight to a controversy, thus improving the amount of information readers have. I even said "If it lends too much weight to Partial Failure or Success, then please let me know.".
The secondary goal was to add closure to all the debates. By giving the "Partial Failure/Success" groups a very small victory, I hoped that they would stop trying to do this.
As for restarting the IFT-2 debate, I fought against that when it happened. I did challenge the closure, but I accepted it after reading the closer's response. When other user's tried to do the same, I advised them to stop, saying "This is a dead debate at this point. I recommend moving on."
As DASL51984 has said, this isn't the first them they have tried to ban me. But they failed to mention that this attempt ended in them being banned for edit warring (48 hour block). They were also given this warning:
I have quite a few things to add here concerning you which I believe show pretty problematic behavior:
1.) You've displayed and admitted to having a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, in this diff in particular during the last RFC on this topic you said "A major part of the IFT-1 problem, though, was my failure to accept defeat. While I wasn't alone in that, I deserve a large amount of the blame." There is no defeat or victory here; or at least there's not supposed to be. It's just part of a trend; defeat with what? You're not supposed to be fighting anybody here.
2.) You've been accused (see this diff here) in the past on RFC's on this topic of WP:BLUDGEONING, specifically with regards to RFC's and attempts to portray the launches of Starship as non-failures in some way or another. This has been going on since the first test launch around May of 2023. Your username appears over 200 times on this one revision of the talk page. That's bludgeoning in my view, and I believe you were warned against bludgeoning during the first RFC as well.
3.) On this diff here, you said this: "If you want it to not be counted as a failure, '''WAIT (at least) A FEW MONTHS.''' Maybe even a year. Right now, you have a 0% chance of getting what you want. The longer you try now, the longer it will be until it's actually possible." This is the most concerning one for me, for obvious reasons. A couple months later and this is what you APPEAR to be trying to do; to once again push through something in a different form (Failure vs non failure) into the article despite it being overwhelmingly rejected three times now. We aren't supposed to be "strategic" in our edits and "time them" so that they slip through. Chuckstablers (talk) 00:07, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
I also have to add the following:
4.) It should be noted that 3.) happened shortly after the RFC (search "RFC on infobox failure" here) was closed with overwhelming consensus in favor of failure. And shortly after that, you're advising another user how to, in my view, strategically bypass consensus ("The longer you try now, the longer it will be until it's actually possible").
5.) After being accused by multiple editors of bludgeoning in the second RFC (see here and here again) you then archived (diff here) the entire closed RFC, three days after it was closed. Somebody pointed out why this was inappropriate (it's been three days) and you rearchived it again 4 days later (diff here) before it was reverted (again). I point this out because there are some hugely troubling implications given the advice you gave to the user in 3.). Chuckstablers (talk) 00:38, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
I personally interpreted that last remark differently: I don't read it as "lie low until people have moved on and sneak the changes in," but as "wait until tempers have cooled instead of further aggravating the situation." Maybe I'm being overly-charitable, but I'm willing to extend the benefit of the doubt in this particular interpretation. – Jadebenn (talk·contribs·subpages) 08:17, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
"wait until tempers have cooled instead of further aggravating the situation"
"Admit Defeat" was, admittedly, poor wording. After all, we are all here to improve Wikipedia. We just disagree.
2:
I won't defend my actions during the IFT-1 debate. But that was almost a year ago. For IFT-2, there was a lot of bludgeoning by several editors (especially me). I was warned on December 9th, and started working on improving.
3:
That was an appeal to JudaPoor to stop. I have no intention of trying to reclassify either IFT-1 or IFT-2. There are clarifications I want to see added (S25/B9 and S24/B7 being labeled as prototypes), and several editors have expressed openness to doing this once Starship is operational, and not in the prototype phase.
4:
A consensus can be overturned. Again, I'm not trying to do that, but letting other editors know that isn't a violation of any policies.
5:
I think I explained my reasoning for the archiving fairly well:
"The topic had already been closed, and it was made clear that a reversal of the closure wasn't going to happen. I get you point, but it's a dead topic. And a dead topic that is over 60% of the talk page is a huge obstruction."
I want to make it clear that I think you're a very valuable editor, and am opposed to any sanctions or anything like that against you. Your editing is obviously positive for Wikipedia, and Wiki Space Flight as a whole.
We might disagree sometimes, but that's going to happen and there's nothing wrong with that! I just wanted to make these points though because I was trying to make you aware of some examples of behavior/attitudes that, if toned down a bit, would help us all get along better.
Do you think we could maybe agree to drop the whole failure vs non failure thing given the consensus that's developed over these RFC's and try to tone it back on future RFC's with the volume of comments? I think that'd help everyone get along a bit better no? Chuckstablers (talk) 20:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
As an involved user, I think that Redacted II needs to be reminded to not revive settled debates and to let things go. I find his contributions to be extremely valuable at the SpaceX Starship article, and to block him from editing (in these areas) would be a net loss for Wikipedia. The same goes for DASL51984, however, given that he has been warned and blocked for edit warringbefore, I think he should use this incident as a way to reflect upon his behaviour as this ANI post is quite frivolous owing to the fact that this is a content dispute. Redacted II mentioned that I asked for guidance on whether or not to bring this to the dispute resolution noticeboard but I decided that it'd be too much hassle in the end and decided to report the issue to @0xDeadbeef who resolved the content dispute involving a recent RfC at the talk page. Ultimately, having both contributors be blocked from editing (these areas) at this point in time would be a net loss for the project unless either of them continue to create a negative environment within the spaces they edit in. However, as for other editors who have participated in what was described as bludgeoning by the OP should be firmly warned not to do this again in the future as I felt that they were less constructive in their arguments and contributions to the talk space and article compared to Redacted II. I'll also add that there was quite a lot of unconstructive sealioning at the talk page by some editors as well which I believe caused DASL51984 to file this ANI complaint.
PS: Not to be petty, but I'd like to add that I added the {{round in circles}} template before it was removed or modified. No hard feelings! Regards, Yasslaywikia (talk) 18:10, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Redacted II has been WP:BLUDGEONing on Talk:SpaceX Starship for many months now, particularly on whether these two launches were failures or not. I see this clearly in particular on Archives 6,7, and 9, where Redacted II has over a hundred replies on each of those pages (and also some on Archive 3 where this all started). I described the situation as him being a fan of SpaceX and wanting to see it portrayed positively in this diff, and in his reply he agreed, saying I have never seen a more accurate description of any situation. I am very much a fan of SpaceX (though not Elon). I think this is pretty clear and Redacted II is having a hard time letting go and dropping the stick on these launches being considered failures in most reliable sources. Leijurv (talk) 23:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
A bit of a correction...
For IFT-1, I have changed my mind. I know I said as such somewhere in Archive 9, but I'm not finding it.
As for IFT-2:
When I started the "Adding mention of the various classifications of IFT-1 and IFT-2" topic, my goal was to add mention of the controversy, explain whyfailure is correct ruling, and help finally end this debate. This wasn't an attempt to reclassify either launch. I even wrote
"If it lends too much weight to Partial Failure or Success, then please let me know."
And for me being a fan of SpaceX:
Yes, I am a fan of SpaceX, but I am constantly trying to compensate for that bias. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I might even overcompensate, and sometimes I fail. Redacted II (talk) 13:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
I can't really assume good faith anymore, due to how needlessly out-of-hand this has become. Nor will I ever back down unless this comes to a permanent stop. DASL51984(Speak to me!)03:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
I was on the opposite side of the discussion from Redacted II in the recent RfC. However, since the RfC, I have noticed some improvement in Redacted II's approach. In a December 2023 discussion with JudaPoor (which other editors are also referencing), I viewed Redacted II as attempting to calm JudaPoor by explaining that consensus can (and likely will) change with time, and importantly, Redacted II acknowledged the current consensus and asked for the arguing to stop. The recent talk page discussion, which seems to be the impetus for this ANI discussion, appeared to me as an attempt at "describing the dispute."
I do find it concerning that DASL51984 has selectively notified editors on their talk page (Leijurv, Chuckstablers, Jrcraft Yt, 0xDeadbeef, CtrlDPredator, Zae8, and myself) and made statements that they won't assume good faith and will "[not] back down unless this comes to a permanent stop." In this context, it makes the ANI discussion appear somewhat frivolous or even a battle by organizing a faction on the part of DASL51984.
Summarizing my thoughts here on all of this. At this point if anyone wants a response from me please at me.
1.) Redacted is a very valuable contributor and I have a lot of respect for them.
2.) The only recent contentious thing they've done is bring up the whole "failure vs non failure" thing again. That topic was closed and they haven't brought it up again.
3.) Sanctions would be wildly inappropriate given their contributions, that they are clearly here to build an encyclopedia, and that sanctions aren't to be used to punish previous 'bad' behavior. As far as I'm aware they exist as a last resort to stop somebody who keeps doing the bad behavior.
4.) My point with my two replies to Redacted was to point out that there are legitimate concerns with their behavior as recent as December (that probably contributed to this whole thing) and that I don't think DASL51984 is harassing them. Wasn't to argue for sanctions.
5.) @Redraiderengineer pointed out that it seems like editors who had disagreements with Redacted in the past were notified about this thread only. If that is the case and it wasn't just editors on the Starship page in general then I'd also like to express my concerns about it. It would encourage WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and that's not what the goal here is.
Ultimately I think we can all learn to get along on this topic, despite our clear differences of opinion on SpaceX and Starship, if we closely follow the talk page guidelines, respect consensus and agree to not badger during RFC's. Sanctions aren't needed, and I'd like to see this closed. Chuckstablers (talk) 22:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
User previously banned for sock-puppetry is engaged in bad faith, revenge, biased opinions with unreliable sources
Latest comment: 11 months ago5 comments4 people in discussion
The User:Sira Aspera as already been banned for sock-puppetry, now he is engaging in bad faith, reverting edits from multiple users for revenge, making several edits with biased opinions with unreliable sources in the same article etc. I would like to ask the admins to pay special attention to him because he clearly wants to vandalize discreetly Fakecontinent (talk) 14:00, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
No, the user was simply offended because I was explained to them that his change to the "Idolatry" page required consent as it was motivated by political ideological reasons as stated on the talk page and in revenge them have canceled my contributions en masse, despite this is not the first time that his contributions have been canceled by various editors for this reason. Furthermore, them continues to accuse me of being blocked as a puppet without apparently having read the part where the error of this is admitted and I receive an apology. Furthermore, I would point out that you did not follow the procedure of notifying me on my talk page that you reported me. Sira Aspera (talk) 14:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
It's important for a new user to understand that reporting another editor on this board will also bring scrutiny on the reporter. I've sampled some of these interactions and by my reading User:Fakecontinent is engaged in putting their opinions into their edits, so most of their contributions are being reverted by multiple editors. I see nothing User:Sira Aspera has done as incorrect, merely BOLD. Fakecontinent might take reversion as a sign something they are doing is not within social norms. BusterD (talk) 14:15, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
After looking at the user's talk page, the block for sockpuppetry was rescinded as it turned out to be erroneous, based on CheckUser evidence. In other words, he's been proven innocent from that, there's no need to bring it up here. ChaotıċEnby(t · c)14:34, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Blocked – for a period of one year. El_C 19:19, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
I've blocked Izmir18 on the basis of checkuser evidence. – bradv 21:46, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Done as WP:A3 which would clearly have applied when it was still in mainspace. Trialpears (talk) 20:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Previous discussion : Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1138#S201050066, yet again
Checkuser note: RedundancyAdvocate and ForeignClimber5 (formerly SurferSquall) are unambiguously 
Confirmed to each other. firefly ( t · c ) 23:09, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Moved from Wikipedia:Teahouse
Levivich (talk) 16:14, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Seriously, the world is such a dark place, I cannot fathom why, why anyone would want to extinguish joy. If it puts a smile on someone's face, even if it's not your face, and is otherwise harmless, just leave it be. We need all the smiles we can gather. Levivich (talk) 18:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Blocked indefinitely: User talk:Roy sikh#Indefinite block. El_C 09:17, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected for a period of 2 weeks, after which the page will be automatically unprotected. Indef not viable yet as this is the page's 1st protection. El_C 15:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
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