Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football

More colors to delete

Per recent discussion of other list articles using team colors, can someone knowledgeable about the coding get rid of the colors on these pages?

• NCAA Division I FBS passing leaders
• NCAA Division I FBS rushing leaders
• NCAA Division I FBS receiving leaders
• NCAA Division I FBS total offense leaders
• NCAA Division I FBS field goal leaders
• List of NCAA Division I FBS scoring leaders

Cbl62 (talk) 04:48, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

These are pretty egregious cases of overuse of overwhelming colors. It would be great if someone with knowledge of color coding could jump in and delete the colors. Cbl62 (talk) 01:20, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed on these egregious colors. These are also rampant on conference season articles (e.g. 2024 Big Ten Conference football season. And what about the use of colors in the tables of the "game summaries" sections of team season articles, e.g. 2024 Michigan Wolverines football team#Game summaries. I think we could so without the colors there too. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Empty game summaries added by IP

Would someone please check the edits by 2603:6080:4F00:4700:89A5:B98D:5950:9C6F which were made on 26 August 2024. For example, see 2024 Howard Bison football team#Game summaries which was added by the IP. Are these empty game summaries likely to be expanded? Or should they be bulk reverted? Johnuniq (talk) 07:00, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

If we wanted commercial-like quality, the future games would be commented out until they actually had content. —Bagumba (talk) 03:44, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for 1899 Sewanee Tigers football team

1899 Sewanee Tigers football team has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 23:59, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Lists nominated for deletion

Several college football coaching records list have been nominated for deletion:

• List of college football coaches with 0 wins
• List of college football coaches with 100 losses
• List of college football coaches with 20 ties
• List of college football coaches with 30 seasons

Jweiss11 (talk) 23:41, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Renaming lists of coaches with most wins

Recently, at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of college football coaches with 100 losses, User:Bagumba made the point that the titles of such articles "might be better as something like 'List of college football career wins leaders'. Unless it's deemed some magic number in sources, cutoff criteria should rarely be in titles. Per WP:LISTNAME:

Many lists are not intended to contain every possible member, but this does not need to be explained in the title itself ... the detailed criteria for inclusion should be described in the lead, and a reasonably concise title should be chosen for the list.

I think Bagumba's advice is sound, though the new name should reflect that it is a list of "coaches". (Otherwise, "wins leaders" would be ambiguous, even moreso in sports like baseball and ice hockey where "wins leaders" typically refers to pitchers or goalies.) I propose starting with the college football list and moving it as follows:

• List of college football coaches with 200 wins --->List of college football career coaching wins leaders

I would also consider List of winningest college football coaches. It's nicely concise, but many outside the USA find the word "winningest" to be objectionable. List of college football coaches with the most wins is another option.

If you have thoughts on whether the move is needed, please reply. Similarly, thoughts on what the new name should be. Cbl62 (talk) 13:46, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

In other sports areas, most stats have lists for career leaders (e.g. List of NFL career rushing yards leaders), annual leaders (list of leaders by year e.g. List of NFL annual rushing yards leaders) and single-season (highest total in a single-season, which is not necessarily the leader for a given season, just the top-X all-time for any season e.g. 2,000-yard club, List of NBA single-season scoring leaders). For naming consistency, I'd lean towards List of college football career wins leaders. I'm OK without "coaching" in the name, as I think QB wins is more of a niche stat. FWIW, baseball is inconsistent with List of Major League Baseball career wins leaders (pitchers) and List of Major League Baseball managers by wins.—Bagumba (talk) 16:05, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

If we go with the baseball precedent, we could use List of college football coaches by wins. I'm fine with any of those, but since the plan is to roll this out to other college sports as well (including baseball and hockey), I do think we should specify we're dealing with coaches. Cbl62 (talk) 20:43, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, we have a bunch of analogous lists here for other college sports; see Template:College athletic coaching wins leaders in the United States. There's also List of college football coaches with a .750 winning percentage. Jweiss11 (talk) 22:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

If people need "coaching" in the title, then I suggest List of college football career coaching wins leaders, as it's similar format to other player stats pages of other sports leagues. —Bagumba (talk) 08:23, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I went ahead and made the move. Cbl62 (talk) 09:31, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Cbl, I see you move the similar lists for other college sports as well. Thanks for tackling that. I also moved List of college football career coaching winning percentage leaders. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:32, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

For List of college football coaches with 30 seasons, should we go with List of college football career coaching seasons leaders or (my preference) List of college football seasons coached leaders (e.g. List of NBA seasons played leaders). @Jweiss11 and Cbl62: Courtesy ping from above.—Bagumba (talk) 05:03, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Some of these lists may need some major WP:TNT treatment since they were initially built on inclusion criteria rooted in primary sources and/or original research (which inherently are worthy of deletion), but ultimately saved and kept at AfDs with secondary sourcing that establishes a completely different inclusion criteria. List of college football coaches with 30 seasons is an example of this, since it was saved and kept at AfD with sourcing that establishes active coaches as the inclusion criteria. We ought to use the available secondary independent sourcing for each topic as a guidepost for editorial decisions like page moves. In that light, it seems most sensible for the title to be something like List of active college football head coaches by tenure. Left guide (talk) 07:16, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

From an encyclopedic perspective, I generally am not a fan of "current" lists that constantly churn. Per the WP:NOTTEMPORARY guideline:

Notability is not temporary; once a topic has been the subject of "significant coverage" in accordance with the general notability guideline, it does not need to have ongoing coverage

—Bagumba (talk) 07:55, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Well active coaches is what the notability of this topic is based on per the sourcing presented in the AfD. Are there independent secondary sources that cover an all-time list? Left guide (talk) 08:03, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Here's some:

1. "Paterno’s 46 seasons as a head coach are the second-most in major college history, trailing only Amos Alonzo Stagg’s 57." ESPN
2. "That ranks eighth on the NCAA’s longevity list, which is topped by Amos Alonzo Stagg’s 57-year career" Spokesman-Review
3. "Gagliardi's 64 years were the most in college football coaching history, surpassing the record of 57 years held by former University of Chicago and University of the Pacific coach Amos Alonzo Stagg."Fox Sports
4. "Gagliardi, who turns 80 on Nov. 1, is in his 58th year as a head coach, his 54th at Division III power St. John’s. That makes him the longest-tenured head coach in college football history, past or present. He has topped Amos Alonzo Stagg by one season, and he is ahead of Joe Paterno and Bobby Bowden, each in his 41st season as coach."New York Times

—Bagumba (talk) 08:39, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok thanks for providing those. A total overhaul is probably not necessary or helpful anymore, and count me in as agreeing with one of your suggestions. Left guide (talk) 09:20, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Draft:1941 Panzer football team

I created the above draft several months ago on a team that was ranked no. 88 by Litkenhous out of more than 650 college football teams. See 1941 college football rankings#Litkenhouse Ratings. The school later changed its name to Montclair State University -- presumably the former name found disfavor after Hitler's Panzer units began rolling across Europe and North Africa. I didn't find sufficient sourcing to move the article to main space. If anyone wants to dig further, feel free to take it over and develop the topic. Cbl62 (talk) 15:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Help requested for article creation

So I've done extensive research for good sources to create an "Uprights" article at Draft:Uprights, but I think I'm hitting major writer's block, and thus having trouble actually fleshing out the prose. If there's anyone in this project who's interested, please feel free to expand it using the many references attached (or any other sources you can find), it would be much appreciated. You can move it to mainspace whenever without having to ask or notify me, there's no WP:OWNERSHIP. Left guide (talk) 09:27, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

• There is some content you may find useful at Goal (sports)#Gridiron football. Cbl62 (talk) 10:57, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

There's also American football field § Goals and some info on placement at Field goal § History —Bagumba (talk) 11:18, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Unsourced gambling odds

There is a trend among some users to add charts with unsourced gambling odds (both pregame line and over/under) as the first element in each game summary of college football season articles. Unsourced content is never good, but the potential for harm is even greater when we allow editors to add unsourced content that can influence betting decisions. IMO Wikipedia should have not be publishing such unsourced gambling odds. I've deleted these unsourced charts from the 2024 season articles on ranked teams, e.g., [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]. I encourage others to be diligent in removing such unsourced information. (For full disclosure, I would like to see such charts elimintated as "undue" even if they are sourced, but I figure eliminating the unsourced ones is a good place to start.) Cbl62 (talk) 23:05, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

• The only resistance I have received thus far is this revert by User:Michiganstatefan1. I have asked that user to explain their position here. Cbl62 (talk) 23:19, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
• Odds and over-unders generally seem WP:UNDUE, even if sourced, but they can be mentioned in prose, when relevant, such as for upsets. Oddmakers have varying odds too, so at least prose can use WP:INTEXT attribution regarding the provider.—Bagumba (talk) 07:10, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. If there's a big upset, it's worth mentioning what the point spread was to demonstrate the magnitude of the upset, but leading each and every game summary with charts showing spreads and over-unders is undue. Cbl62 (talk) 11:15, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, this content is totally unencyclopedic trivia, even if sourced. Like Bagumba said, if a big upset happens, gambling odds on the game can be mentioned in prose to illustrate the scale of the upset. Otherwise, remove it, across the board. Ejgreen77 (talk) 11:47, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

• Note that Template:Infobox college football game and Template:Infobox NCAA football yearly game have a parameter for betting odds.

Like |odds = Michigan by 4.5 at 2024 College Football Playoff National Championship PK-WIKI (talk) 21:19, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Not an endorsement, but there's a bit more merit for a notable game that warrants a standalone page. —Bagumba (talk) 02:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

In principle, I don't have a problem with including gambling stats (spreads and over/unders) to the extent that the information is accurate and verifiable and, ideally, sourced. But these gambling stats should definitely not be getting their own ad hoc tables. Rather they should be added as fields in the game summary tables that are used in the "Game summaries" sections of team season articles. But we have a more fundamental problem there because we have a massive style fork with those tables. Three different sets of templates are widely used: 1) Template:Americanfootballbox, 2) Template:AFB game box start and siblings, and 3) Template:Linescore Amfootball. Each of the three is used in thousand of articles, although of much of the use falls outside of college football. Template:Americanfootballbox appears to have wide usage on NFL team season articles. Then there's also Template:AFB game box start and Template:AmFootballGameStatistics, often used in conjunction with one of the above three to add more statistical details for a given game. We need to decide on one of these to use for college football and make that the standard. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:25, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

100% agree. I've given a bit of thought to this but never enough to make any sort of comment here with an opinion as to which style would be best. I don't do as much of the updating edits in those sections as I used to, but I'd be happy to discuss and help with the conversion if we get to that. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 02:17, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Uniform color combination charts, too

Recent season articles have become a train wreck of charts piled on charts with minimal prose. Getting rid of the gambling charts is a good start, and we should continue the process of limiting such charts. Another candidate for the trash bin IMO is the proliferation of game-by-game charts displaying uniform colors (helmet, jersey, pants). E.g., 2024 Missouri Tigers football team#vs. No. 24 Boston College. As with gambling charts, we can deal with unique uniform configurations (e.g., use of a unique retro uniform for a special game) in the prose summary, but leading off each game summary with a chart showing the color combinations of pants and jerseys strike me as seriously trivial/undue. Thoughts? Cbl62 (talk) 19:09, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree that weekly uniform information seems trivial. To the extent that anything needs to be repeated weekly, it should generally be integrated into the existing game box, not separate. In the interest of making this objective as possible, I wonder if it's worthwhile to draft general principles on how existing params like TV info, weather, referees, and attendance are deemed core for {{Americanfootballbox}}, and how we would determine the notability or not of new information in future discussions. —Bagumba (talk) 00:30, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Such a discussion would be worthwhile IMO. I don't think, for example, names of referees and sideline reporters are "core" information that needs to be included in every game box. Cbl62 (talk) 01:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

... a train wreck of charts piled on charts with minimal prose: I'm ok if an editor doesn't write prose as long as their tabular additions would be considered suitable for an WP:FA-version of that page. —Bagumba (talk) 00:58, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how season articles without prose summaries could/should qualify for GA status, let alone FA status. Game summaries are a key element of football season articles and should include substantial prose. E.g., 2023 Michigan Wolverines football team#Game summaries. Cbl62 (talk) 01:19, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I meant whether the tables would be considered part of a final FA, not that I'm advocating prose-challenged pages for FA. —Bagumba (talk) 01:52, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Cbl62, Bagumba, Ejgreen77, and PK-WIKI: Ideally, any decisions on what to cut from team season articles across the board should be updated as such at WP:WikiProject College football/Yearly team pages format with those points citing discussions here (WP:NBASTYLE and its "references" is a good useful example of this), so there's a concrete consensus to point to when removing or reverting large amounts of work from good-faith editors. Left guide (talk) 06:20, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

The problem IMO is that people are just making up more and more charts and adding them to season articles without any consensus ever having been reached. Neither the gambling odds charts nor the uniform color combination charts are part of WP:WikiProject College football/Yearly team pages format. The addition of more and more of these charts, without any consensus discussion in support, has led to our season articles becoming, to quote myself, "a train wreck of charts piled on charts with minimal prose." To your precise point, I agree: If there is consensus for deleting elements that are part of the "yearly team pages format", then, yes, that should be updated. Cbl62 (talk) 13:08, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Cbl62: Ok, I've gone ahead and started a "things to exclude" section at the team season style guide with shortcut WP:CFBEXCLUDE. Anyone can feel free to fill and expand. Left guide (talk) 22:41, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Governor's Victory Bell listed at Articles for deletion

The Governor's Victory Bell (trophy awarded between Penn State and Minnesota) has been listed at AFD:

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Governor's Victory Bell

If deleted this would be the only trophy/rivalry included at List of Big Ten Conference football rivalry games without its own article. PK-WIKI (talk) 16:28, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

PK-WIKI, Please review WP:CANVASSING. While a neutral notification on a Wikiproject is specifically allowed, Inserting ann anrgument into this notification is considered campaigning for your side. Future inappropriate notifications will be brought up on ANI. Frank Anchor 17:58, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

RFC/N discussion of the username "North Coast Football"

A request for comment has been filed concerning the username of North Coast Football (talk · contribs). You are invited to comment on the discussion here. Left guide (talk) 00:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)