Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources

Cartoon image near lead

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Current leadimage

Alternative?

Another option

Yet another option

I removed the cartoon image near the lead. I think this image is sarcastic and distracting to the point of this article, and takes up a lot of space, especially when you read the page from a phone. Per WP:ONUS, The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content., so I have removed the image for now. I think it might be better positioned in the beginning of the "Legend", but personally I do not think it is beneficial to the article, even if it has been on this page for 5 years as mentioned by another editor. Iljhgtn (talk) 12:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's distracting for the point of this project-page, and since it's not an article, there aren't really any rules apart from consensus. Until I see an alternative I like better, I'm at keep it there. Previous discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources/Archive_6#reliable_sources. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:09, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it's a great example of the dangers of poor sources. American Apple Orchards PAC aka O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:45, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't particularly care for the image either and would be fine with its removal. Some1 (talk) 23:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not all serious, we're allowed a little bit of humour. Keep or replace with the xkcd. Anarchyte (talk) 09:15, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

This xkcd image is far better than the current image. I would support that as a replacement if outright removal of the current cartoon does not reach consensus. Iljhgtn (talk) 20:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

The image is perfect as is and illustrates clearly that not all sources are equal. Margaret Hamilton next to a stack of code illustrates nothing, and the XKCD one illustrates that sources are needed, not that reliable sources are needed. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 09:43, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

But she has surely assembled the good sources! ;) That said, you make sense to me. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:49, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Headbomb that neither of the proposed alternatives are better. I don't have any particular attachment to the current image so if someone can come up with a better alternative I wouldn't mind changing it, but neither of these are. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 09:51, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I think no image is the best. Iljhgtn (talk) 12:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I like having an image, so long as it's material to the text. The use of an image, especially one as pertinent as this one, sets up the content in a helpful way.

The four-panel cartoon is is the only image identified that is material to the text it accompanies: it shows the use of sources, but also that not all sources are reliable. That's the page's entire point.

The Hamilton photo is a great photo, for Margaret Hamilton (software engineer); not so much for this page. It says nothing at all about sources or their quality (except perhaps a pun about source code, which would be too arcane for a large number of non-programming Wikipedia editors who are the target audience for this page). The XKCD cartoon is is about the need for sourcing, and would be fine for WP:Reliable sources or WP:Citation needed; but it makes no point about the reliability of sourcing, so does not carry the point here. So far, the four-panel cartoon is the only one identified that is apt for this page. TJRC (talk) 16:09, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support removal of the cartoon. Ridicule is not part of the scientific method. The kind of mockery that the cartoon engages in is not helpful in discouraging pseudoscience: [1]. James500 (talk) 11:51, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

  RSP isn't very much about fighting pseudoscience, is it? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

  It's very much about fighting it, though it's not its exclusive mission (that would be fighting bad information in general, of which pseudoscience is part of). But this page is also not about changing minds. I couldn't care less about the feelings of WP:LUNATICS offended that no one is taking seriously their claims that water has memory, or that CNN is controlled by reptilians.

  What it's about is explaining and documenting that not all sources are equal. And the cartoon explains that very succinctly. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 04:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  The cartoon does exactly what @James500says it does which is antithetical to the headline, "The key to fighting pseudoscience isn’t mockery—it’s empathy". The cartoon could not be more mocking if it tried. Thankfully, we are free to remove it in the absence of evident consensus for the image being retained. Iljhgtn (talk) 20:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  "The key to fighting pseudoscience isn’t mockery—it’s empathy" That's one opinion, and it certainly isn't universal. Moreover the point of the cartoon is to illustrate that not all sources are equal, and that if you bring a non-reliable source, people will ignore it, and rightfully so. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:03, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  The cartoon does not explain "that not all sources are equal". The cartoon does not say that any sources are reliable. The cartoon does not explain which sources are unreliable, or what they are unreliable for, or why they are unreliable. The cartoon does not say whether there is any difference between being unreliable and being less reliable, and does not admit that uncertainty sometimes exists. The cartoon does not explain that a source may be reliable for some things even though it is unreliable for others. The hypothetical source described in the cartoon bears no resemblence to most of the sources listed at RSP. There are no ancient books that claim that apples cause cancer. RSP should not include jokes about the World Elephant or (even if only by implication) the World Turtle. I do not think that showing that cartoon to someone who "brings" an unreliable source is going to help to convince them or anyone else it is unreliable. I think it is more likely to cause offence and prolong disputes. And individuals who cannot be reasoned with need to be blocked, not insulted with a cartoon. James500 (talk) 01:16, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

  @James500 makes some excellent points about how the cartoon is actually potentially offensive, in addition to being unnecessary and in no way actually clearly didactic. I had not considered the offensive nature of the cartoon, and it is with this added reason that I see the building consensus for removal is becoming even more compelling than I had initially expected. Iljhgtn (talk) 04:15, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

  It is a good illustration for WP:AGEMATTERS. For an article about perennialy unreliable sources, not so much. Would it be a COPYVIO to use the front page of this article from The Sun (UK, Murdoch stable, now there's a surprise): Freddie Starr ate my hamster. Fair use? It is the archetypal example regularly cited in UK commentary, though there are more egregious examples. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 09:33, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Not a bad idea, but would fail the strict demands of WP:NFCC/WP:NFCI. Got anything good pre-1929? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  I found a sort-of-alternative which I added, but IMO it doesn't really fit. This is more an example of "Even generally reliable sources sometimes get it wrong." I wonder if they published a redaction? JMF's example is a much better fit, arguably even fake news per "The man behind the hamster story was the British publicist, Max Clifford, at that time Starr's agent, who concocted the story as a practical joke." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not convinced it's really illustrating WP:AGEMATTERS. Yes, the books is described as ancient, but "apples cause cancer" isn't a previously-respectable but outdated theory.

  As for a non-free image: per WP:NFCC#9, non-free images are only permitted in articlespace. Suggesting non-free images here is an absolute non-starter. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 09:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Quote from book: "Put ye sliced apples on a beach, and behold, crabs shall appear!" Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  I do not see how WP:AGEMATTERS really applies here as well. Also, it looks like some people want the image removed, some don't really care, others want a new image, but there is no consensus to keep the existing image. Iljhgtn (talk) 20:13, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  I see strong support for keeping it from:

  • Objective3000 "American Apple Orchards PAC aka O3000, Ret"
  • Headbomb
  • TJRC

  And weak support from:

  • Gråbergs Gråa Sång
  • Anarchyte
  • Caeciliusinhorto-public

  Solomon Ucko (talk) 20:29, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  No consensus to change = no change. Basic wikipedianism. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:17, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Support removal and inclusion of second alternative. It's supposed to be a witty cartoon, but really isn't that funny or relevant to the source list that intends to be a more formal summary of source reliability. The cartoon in question would be better suited for WP:RS or WP:FRINGE rather than this list of perennial sources, specifically the latter. The second alternative (Margaret Hamilton) is a lot more relevant, as it indirectly represents the concept of "stacking" source discussions from an enormous archive, which is very much reflective of this project page and purpose. Will have a search on commons and see if I can find any more alternatives. CNC (talk) 12:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Support removal. As the kids say, the current image is pretty cringe. I'm not sure having an allegedly funny image in the lede contributes anything. Apocheir (talk) 16:56, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Comment None of the alternative images seem compelling. Margaret Hamilton standing next to papers doesn't tell us anything. The Wikipedian protestor comic is actually kind of funny, but it's about a lack of sources at all rather than unreliable ones. The Dewey Defeat Truman press photo is pretty exclusionary to anyone not well versed in midcentury US presidential politics. Bremps... 03:28, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I would say that is why outright removal, without a replacement, is looking like the best option supported by the largest consensus at the present time. Iljhgtn (talk) 04:17, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Support removal. None of the three images are clearly relevant to this particular page rather than, say, WP:RSN or many other source-related guidance pages. I support removal without replacement. Also, removal will reduce page size... a bit.--FeralOink (talk) 06:26, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose removal. The cartoon we have currently is the best of the four choices presented, and does a good job of showing that not all sources are reliable. Enoryt nwased lamaj (talk) 08:28, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think any of the suggested alternatives are better. FunLater (talk) 20:44, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Do you think it is best to leave the current image though? Or remove it and replace it with nothing? I support removing the current image which I think badly promotes a negative view, and replacing it with nothing. Iljhgtn (talk) 22:10, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Support removal The "flat earth" comment reinforces the false notion that ancient civilizations all thought the earth was flat. See Flat Earth#Greece: spherical Earth. Ancients didn't know about cancer so it seems unlikely that an ancient book would claim that apples cause cancer. See this review of studies about whether Apples causes cancer:

Foods of plant origin have received particular interest over the years as potential cancer-preventive components of a healthy diet. Fruit and vegetables contain a myriad of bioactive phytochemicals that, through various molecular mechanisms, show chemopreventive properties in both in vitro and in vivo models of carcinogenesis( 4 ). However, from an epidemiological point of view, while early data from case–control studies suggested a clear preventive role for fruit and vegetables on cancer in different sites, recent large prospective studies have questioned this conclusion( 5 ). Indeed, while an expert panel report from the World Cancer Research Fund/American Institute for Cancer Research published in 1997 stated that there was ‘convincing’ evidence that a high intake of fruit and/or vegetables prevents cancers, an updated report published 10 years later downgraded the evidence to either ‘probable’ or ‘limited-suggestive’( 6 ).

Because of the peculiar chemical composition and the potential molecular mechanisms involved, it is possible that some types of fruit/vegetable may be much more strongly associated with cancer risk than others. This may be hidden in epidemiological studies examining the association of cancer risk with total fruit/vegetable intake. In this respect, our interest was attracted by apples considering that they are the most consumed fruit in European countries and they are a rich source of bioactive phytochemicals (phenols and flavonoids) possessing strong chemopreventive and antioxidant activities( 7 ). We therefore conducted a systematic review of the literature on the relationship between apple intake and cancer risk, and for the first time undertook a meta-analysis to provide quantitative estimates of the association.

The meta-analysis here found 41 previous studies on whether apples cause cancer and finds that they likely do not. One could say that whether the opinion that apples cause cancer is reasonable is irrelevant since the actual point with respect to RSP is that the source is reliable, not that its contents are accurate. But this point itself is clearly ignored by the comic, because it does not tell us whether the ancient books are reliable. Instead, we are meant to assume that they are not due to the contents, which brings us back the the first point that some of the contents (the apple) are in fact at least somewhat worthy of serious question and study. Additionally, Euclid's Elements, despite being written in ~300 BC, is still correct today, as are many ancient mathematical works. So the comic fails on all points except being antagonizing to the person that goes to look up a source here, reads that comic and then finds out that their source was deemed unreliable by Wikipedia's editors, placing them on the same level as the idiot that believes apples cause cancer. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 21:49, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Page size

This page is presently 407kB long. It is difficult to load this page with a browser, and even more difficult to edit it. Are there any sources that are not sufficiently perennial, or sufficiently important, that they need to be included? Alternatively, could this page be split? James500 (talk) 14:48, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• I think splitting a totally reasonable idea and have tagged the page accordingly. Other extremely long lists have done this, usually alphabetically. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 17:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
• I am opposed to cutting sources just to make the page shorter. If a source has been discussed repeatedly, and a consensus reached, there should be an easy way for editors to learn about that. But splitting is completely appropriate. John M Baker (talk) 19:57, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
• There have been repeated proposals to this effect, but frankly there is no easy division that does not greatly reduce usefulness as a quick reference guide. It's long because there's a lot of entries and they need to be somewhere. I must note that a short while ago you were proposing this page's complete removal as useless, so it's not clear the degree to which your advice on its modification for usefulness should be considered - David Gerard (talk) 20:48, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Splitting the table means you can't sort it properly any more with all entries. Cortador (talk) 21:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
• Agree to split. The obvious choice would be A-M and N-Z. Otherwise sectioning alphabetically (A,B,C,etc), and collapsing each section could help with browser loading time if not mistaken? Similar to the French wiki version. CNC (talk) 20:57, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose – Agree with David Gerard and Cortador that the usefulness of a single-page presentation is paramount in terms of sorting and searchability, so I discourage arbitrary splitting or shortening of this page. There are many more readers of this critical page than editors. Therefore, as long as it loads in an adequate manner we should not alter the page to cater to editors. - Fuzheado | Talk 23:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
• On a technical level something should be done to alleviate WP:CHOKING concerns. Mfko (talk) 14:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Fuzheado The entire point of this page is to centralize information. We could have a distilled parallel list of some commonly discussed sources on a user subpage, though. Bremps... 03:23, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
• Comment What do people think about splitting combined with transclusion like at List_of_Latin_phrases_(full) (except with a single sortable table)? 174.92.25.207 (talk) 04:48, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

  How does this work? JuxtaposedJacob (talk) 02:41, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  Read on, man. Transclusion, a live-ish view of one page from another page, is one of the fundamental functions of MediaWiki. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:01, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. No good way to do it.—Alalch E. 17:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
• Since the page will keep growing, some sort of split seems the standard response for pages that get so big they cause technical problems. Would it be possible to make a searchbox on the first page that will cover the entire RSP? WP:CHOKING seems to be the written guidance. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, if we do split it, we could perhaps divide Sources into a few subsections, that might make editing easier. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

The Sources section on this page could look something like

Searchbox

• link to sources 0-L
• link to sources M-Z

A little similar to 2019_in_film#2019_films, articles like that used to have big-ass lists of films, mostly American ones. They still have big-ass lists of dead people... Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:07, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Is this really a question about the inclusion criteria for this list, and whether it should be adjusted? I'd say that if there hasn't been an RFC for a source in X years, then it's not really perennial anymore. (Not sure what X should be, but it's at most 10.) Maybe we should add something about that. Apocheir (talk) 03:01, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Æo (talk) 23:57, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
• Comment I like Gråbergs Gråa Sång's partitioning idea! An alternative source division schema could be a link to each of the four major source reliability categories of Green, Yellow, Red, and Grey. Each would have its own page.--FeralOink (talk) 19:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we should partition by color. I think that would reinforce the incorrect idea that these "reliability categories" are absolutes, rather than depending on context. There is no black-and-white line between reliable and unreliable sources; rather, different sources are reliable for different kinds of claims. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 14:41, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

• There probably are some frivolous entries though maybe not enough to make a big difference. I was thinking of removing the entry for "bestgore", who would ever try and cite that really? Hardly perennial. VintageVernacular (talk) 03:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

You'd be surprised as to what people will try to cite. Some entries, particularly the blacklisted ones, have useful context as to why they were blacklisted in the first place. But I agree that there are some entries that are stretching the definition of "perennial". Mfko (talk) 14:11, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment A split is treating the symptoms rather than the root cause. This page has attracted an enormous amount of cruft over the years and desperately needs to be pruned, the inclusion criteria adjusted, and sources aggregated (as seen below with the medical preprints for example).

For example, several entries could simply be aggregated under a generic banner of "this is user-generated content, don't use this". (Stack Overflow, Quora, TV Tropes, Ethnicity of Celebs, Land Transport Guru, SourceWatch, WhoSampled). There are plenty more entries in the list but these stuck out the most.

There are also problems with the definition of "perennial" as there are several entries that haven't been discussed for 14+ years such as Spirit of Metal. Of course on the flip side, you have entries like "The New Yorker" that haven't been discussed as well but are obviously reliable. Where is the line drawn? Are there really that many people attempting to cite Spirit of Metal to warrant its inclusion on the list? Mfko (talk) 14:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree with merging the user-generated sources together in most cases. Some entries that are blacklisted or deprecated might warrant still being listed on their own. There are also some edge cases, like sites that host both UGC and professionally written content (e.g. Atlas Obscura), or UGC sites when used by reliable news organizations (e.g. YouTube) that we might have to handle on a case-by-case basis. But generally, the run-of-the-mill generally unreliable UGC sites could all be condensed together. See also the § Merging some entries section below.

Your comment about the definition of perennial echos my earlier comment about the inclusion criteria for this page. Apocheir (talk) 18:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

• Generally disagree. This sounds like trying to put a plaster over the problem, if we are too look at the root problem which is size. At the moment the page is at 2.5KB, it should be around 2KB per CHOKING issues referenced above. Grouping together entries like user content isn't going to solve the problem here, not by a long shot. I'm not opposed to sources that haven't been discussed in many years being taken out, but not convinced even this would see the minimum required 20% decline in size either, probably more like 10% at best. Also it's complicated as some sources haven't been discussed in a long time, but otherwise are regularly used on WP, so not being discussed isn't necessarily a barometer of having no benefit for inclusion either. Sometimes you have to look at some of these entries and simply consider "could someone find this useful"; the answer is someone probably could, even if not regularly, regardless of if it's inclusion is necessary. Overall I'm generally opposed to unsustainable solutions such as "trimming" in these cases. It reminds me of when articles reach 20,000 words; instead of simply splitting as required, editors suggest trimming unnecessary content; as if it's going to reduce the article size by 50% to a readable size (which never happens). It'd be a shame to get to the point of trimming entries, which naturally proceeds into excluding further entries based on similar criteria, simply because we are unwilling to split the article in a conventional manner. CNC (talk) 19:18, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• Split alphabetically – While we're at it, given the size of the page we might as well split into three (I propose 0–F, G–M, and N–Z, eyeballing roughly equal length), not two. We can have likely have a transcluded (full list) page too. Remsense诉 19:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:47, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

That works for me.--FeralOink (talk) 06:12, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: This page is very useful for pressing "ctrl-f" and splitting into multiple pages would double the work required every time the page was used. Slow editing is an acceptable price given that the article does not have to be edited that often. Support merging the use-generated sources. Mrfoogles (talk) 07:34, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

It's not just slow to edit; did you notice the transclusion proposal? Remsense诉 18:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I wonder is there's an "information page" on en-WP that gets edited more often than this one. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:58, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose alphabetical split as this would create a new problem after solving another. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 17:48, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support per @Remsense and @Ivanvector's proposals below. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:41, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose splitting that doesn't result in a single list that editor can check against. So I would support the transclusion option. As to inclusion criteria the change that should be made is the comment about needing an RFC for inclusion, this causes editors to jump start RFCs on RSN for sources with no prior discussion just so they can get the source listed here. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:55, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

@ActivelyDisinterested, I commented on that here: Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources/Archive_9#Starting_WP:RSN-discussions_with_the_purpose_to_include_stuff_on_WP:RSP Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:08, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Completely agree with Levivich, although I don't know how to stop it from happening. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:15, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I do too. I've seen more than one RSN RFC where people ask "Is there actually an issue?", and that sometimes help. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:34, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Maybe the inclusion criteria should explicitly exclude discussions/RFCs that only seek RSP inclusion, but that might be better discussed in a separate thread. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:09, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose any split. This is a list. Using the list does not mean reading the whole text. The list is mostly, if not exclusively, being used to check if a specific source has been deprecated. It goes without saying that a single search is the efficient choice. -The Gnome (talk) 16:39, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

  Is this still your position given the proposal below, which would allow users to seamlessly search the full list on one page as before? Remsense诉 16:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

It still is, because in the case of lists such as this, there is, by definition, no issue of page clutter. Almost all uses of this list concern a single source being checked. Suggestions to change something very successful are all well meaning but misguided: they're about lists generically. -The Gnome (talk) 21:15, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

That's slightly confusing, I'm not sure why anyone would be proposing a complication like this on a lark or because we don't know article guidelines don't apply.

The concrete reason expressed by multiple editors is that they have considerable difficulty reading and editing this page due to its length and breadth being enough to slow down their system.

(I'm one of those, but I haven't explicitly said as much because I always have weird computer problems and don't like complaining about them.) Remsense诉 21:42, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Same. RSPS sometimes takes like 20 seconds for me to publish an edit. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:17, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

• Break table and switch to a subpage format, where each subpage gives a nuanced profile of a source. The table has always been cluttered and cramped, and now it's still too big. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 17:50, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Do you really believe that creating "a nuanced profile of [every] source" would be anything less than a Herculean task? Why not simply opt for simplicity, consolidation, and practicality? -The Gnome (talk) 21:15, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not clear either on that proposal or what it would do either—surely the current format of entries is generally sufficient for what the list is designed to accomplish? i.e. figure out how mean to be to who you're reverting, and maybe grab an example quote as to why a source is good or bad. Remsense诉 21:35, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

For sources that are GREL, GUNREL, or deprecated, a brief entry describing why ought to suffice. I think a nuanced profile of a source would only be needed if the source has additional considerations or there's no consensus about the source. If we go this route, however, I worry about editors warring over the contents of a subpage when they have a content disputes, rather than working it out on the article talk page.

Additionally, as someone who has closed a couple of RSN RfCs and added entries to the chart, I would not have closed those discussions if that had meant that I would have needed to write a nuanced profile of the source based on the consensuses that emerged from those discussions. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:33, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose It does what it needs to do and I've never noticed any issues with it loading on browsers. I'm going to oppose on WP:AINT principles. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 17:37, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Several editors say that it's broken and loads slowly. Just because you don't have issues doesn't mean it ain't broken for others. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:59, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

We are only talking about it because it is indeed broken. Remsense诉 21:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The assessments about the page being "broken" are, of course, entirely subjective. Substance is of the essence. As are assessments to the contrary, though the burden of proving "not broken" ain't on us. Do not ask us to prove a negative. -The Gnome (talk) 18:00, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

In fact they are not subjective, but instead well defined. As referenced above the in discussion, per WP:CHOKING: "The maximum limit for Wikipedia is via the MediaWiki software's wgMaxArticleSize to 2 MiB (specifically, 2048 kibibytes or 2,097,152 bytes). Exceeding the post-expand limit will result in templates in the article appearing incorrectly." At 2.5MB, it's clearly above this threshold by 536 kB currently. There's no valid argument against this. CNC (talk) 18:15, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I have no idea where you got your "2.5MB" figure from. The entire page is only 0.43MB or 0.41MiB. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:30, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

From HTML document size, not wikitext. CNC (talk) 18:33, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

According to the NewPP report, that would be 1.42MiB. You're probably including the images and the skin. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:38, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Assuming the burden is on people trying to prove the page is broken, several people have stated in this discussion that the page loads slowly for them. The only way to unbreak that is to fix the page. We're not asking you to prove a negative, but to show that there's some other compelling reason for not fixing the loading issue that a lot of people are having. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:59, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

One of the sillier comments I've ever read. Remsense诉 19:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Try editing the page with syntax highlighting. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:32, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. The ability to easily search for a source at a glance to get a quick temperature check on how the community feels about it is too important to lose; while other search options exist, none of them are as easy or convenient (as anyone who has had to dig through searches for talk page archives can attest), so we should try to keep everything on one page for as long as possible. --Aquillion (talk) 01:35, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

  Perfunctory nudge about the below transclusion possibility—as the temperature check is no longer quick for many users, for whom the as long as possible period has already expired. Remsense诉 01:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I've requested a close of this split proposal at WP:CR. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:40, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose anything other than a technical split - Just because editors that participate in RfCs understand the generally-accepted reliability or unreliability of a source doesn;t mean that everyone does. I use this page all the time and its usefulness would definitely be diminished if we removed even one source; however, I get the point of splitting up the page for technical reasons and am all for that if we can get it to work in a ctrl+f style manner. JuxtaposedJacob (talk) 02:45, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Transclusion possibility

Sorry if an annoyance, but does the proposal to split, while also transcluding the segments onto a (full list) page move the needle for any of the oppose !‍votes? As I see it, this would seem to enable equivalently easy or easier editing and searching for all users. Remsense诉 18:41, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I was just going to say that - we already have plenty of pages that work that way. WP:RFPP comes to mind, as do the main pages of both WP:AFD and WP:RFD. For AFD and RFD all active discussions are transcluded to a main page that can be Ctrl-F searched, while clicking on an edit link takes you to edit the subpage of each individual discussion for AFD or to the daily page for RFD. WP:EDR also works that way, and is a page with multiple long tables. I think it would even be technically possible to transclude subpages onto a main page in one continuous sortable table, I think our highway exit list and election results tables work that way, but with as much info as is on this page it would be a nightmare to edit. Anyway, we wouldn't be reinventing the wheel here. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

In fact I just tried to demo what it would look like in my userspace, see User:Ivanvector/RSP split proposal. It doesn't work because there's something with include tags on the original page that break how I think the transclusions should work, and relative links to templates that of course don't exist in my userspace. I'm sure I could figure it out but this isn't how I was planning to spend my Saturday - if someone else wants to run with it then please be my guest, otherwise I will probably look at it again next week. This did get the page from 426kB down to 28kB, though.

Another thought I had while doing this is that we could change the page so that there's a master template for entries, and then each entry transcludes that template. That would be a task for someone who knows more about templates than I do. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:05, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Ah, never mind all that, I got it working by just bulk removing the "onlyinclude" tags that I don't know what they're supposed to do (nothing about it in the instructions). Works now at least superficially; take a look. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:16, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Looks fine, the tags are to do with #Duplication at Wikipedia:Deprecated_sources#Currently_deprecated_sources. When it comes to transclusion, @174.92.25.207 would be the editor to ask around here it seems. CNC (talk) 15:26, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Support transclusion along with merging entries - but it sounds like that will be a separate project. Mfko (talk) 18:00, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I generally dislike transclusion, but it seems like a sensible solution in this situation. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Support This was what I was thinking as well. @Ivanvector Would only transcluding the table body work? Aaron Liu (talk) 01:43, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:17, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Splitting sources into alphabetical subpages is a good start, but RSP should list every source without being too lengthy and it should be more practical for mobile users. Instead of transcluding all content, the main table could have colored rows with just a source column (linking only to subpage entries) and a status column. The bulk of the content would be on the subpages and source-specific shortcuts would also go to the complete entries on subpages. We could also have a "RSPFULL" page that would transclude every subpage for people that prefer the current format. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 01:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

That would require a lot more maintenance due to the duplication. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:18, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be more maintenance, but changes would only be required for additions, removals, and status changes. Clarifications, additional discussion links, etc. would not require updates. Of the last 10 edits to WP:RSP, only 1 would have required a table update (an addition). The others were changes to other parts of the page, details that would be on subpages, or were reverted. Longer-term, the summary table could be automatically generated and updated by a bot (similar to what User:Rick Bot, User:ChristieBot, and other similar bots do for various pages). Daniel Quinlan (talk) 02:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Links etc. will still require updates in the subpage. Bots still require maintenance. I don't see any reason to do what you said; for mobile people, they can already see the first columns. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:14, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Some mobile users can't even load the current page. It's too large for some browsers. (@PARAKANYAA: If you want to add anything about the crashing issue you mentioned you were experiencing?) Using a summary table would improve the accessibility of the page, especially for mobile users, users with slower internet connections, and those who use assistive technologies. It's overwhelming even with a good computer, a fast connection, and large screen.

While some updates will require editing two pages instead of one, that affects only a minority of updates. Editing the summary table will be much simpler than editing the main entries. The page currently stands at about 35,000 words, which is 233% above the point where an article should Almost certainly should be divided or trimmed according to WP:SIZERULE. Although this isn't an article, it's simply too much content for a single page. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 03:06, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

To all whom may concern: I've made a better demo of this at User:Aaron Liu/sandbox/RSP Demo, which generates a full, uninterrupted table, as well as a separate table of deprecated sources generated from transcluding a labeled section from the full table. I can convert the entirety of RSP into this format if someone wants.

If an issue here is that loading the full table is too slow, we can make it so that the landing page is just the ToC and description (everything that isn't that table) of RSP, and the full table is at something like RSP/F (with a shortcut from RSPF as well). Aaron Liu (talk) 02:32, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Support - I got some WP:TROUT by accidentally adding back the cartoon without concensus and almost crashed my tablet trying to revert my own edit. As long as mobile can edit it I support. Apenguinlover(🐧!) 11:25, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Entries that might be trimmed

Some people above have proposed trimming the list. I think that we can start by cutting the following entries:

• Inter Press Service
• The New Yorker
• Pew Research Center

Each of those sources are well-known institutions and considered to be generally reliable, and the last discussions occurred over 10 years ago. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:53, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Since none of these have no (noted) discussion for more than a decade, making them arguably not "perennial", and they do seem uncontroversially generally reliable, I'm ok with that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:13, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

There a similar issue with sources that were only added due to discussions about adding them, for instance the 'ABC News (United States)' entry. If you check the discussions they are only about adding sources to the RSP, not any real dispute about the sources reliability. The same is true of 'The Age' and 'The Sydney Morning Herald', which only had an RFC to green list.

I've wondered whether the criteria should exclude discussions or RFCs started solely to include sources on the list. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:07, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, I think that's worthwhile. Stop and really think about it: has anyone in good faith ever asked in a talk page discussion whether ABC is reliable? If that happens, this page won't help—as there's either particular context or the question is purely rhetorical. Remsense诉 13:09, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Fine with me. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:19, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

IMO we should add those to footnote [a] if/when we remove it from the primary list. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:27, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

We can rewrite that footnote a bit, but I'm not sure all potential removals need to go there. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:08, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

There is potential harm with removing the mentions from the page entirely. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:37, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

What's the harm? voorts (talk/contributions) 17:39, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't word that the best. While keeping them in the footnote probably wouldn't do much than inflating it with a couple dozen characters, readers might not see these sources (especially people who haven't heard of them) on the main page and question its reliability if they were entirely removed.
I'm also fine with archiving or moving to a separate page. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:42, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The same type of issues still apply, though. Presumably, the entries were created because editors thought that others might question them, and we can't exactly know if there were any debates that didn't happen because an entry already existed here. Alternatively, some editors might prefer to have a general reference list for sources even if they don't meet the dictionary definition of "perennial", meaning that even uncontroversial entries still have value to them (although that may be an argument to create a separate list). Unless we have reason to believe they're no longer accurate, I think moving or archiving them will always make more sense than removal. Sunrise (talk) 17:33, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Archiving or moving is fine with me. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:38, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

We could absolutely make some sort of "Non-perennial perennials" archive/page. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:43, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

That's actually not a bad idea. CNC (talk) 17:44, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Getting paradoxical, eh?
Personally I'd call it "stale". Aaron Liu (talk) 17:51, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

NPP already has a much more comprehensive list than RSP, which includes everything here and more. If there's a desire for a general list of sources a secondary page based on the NPP list could be a place to start. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:32, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: I don't believe this will move the bar much and removing sources is moving the page in the wrong direction. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 01:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - Chicken or the egg. Lack of repeated discussion about included sources? That's a feature not a bug. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 09:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

The page is called "perennial sources" because it's intended to be about sources that are the subject of repeated discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 12:56, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I would argue that the fact that inclusion has prevented redundant discussions of previously perennially discussed sources is good. Perhaps the introduction could be edited to reflect that, something like "The following presents a non-exhaustive list of sources whose reliability and use on Wikipedia were frequently discussed resulting in a clear consensus emerging." Or something a bit more elegant. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 18:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

"reliability is frequently discussed or used on Wikipedia" would be the useful clarity here. I agree with above opinions that despite no discussions in the past 14 years for say Pew Research, the use of the source on Wikipedia remains frequent, and thus it's likely that it's inclusion on RSP has avoided further discussions at RSN. In summary it's as useful to include sources that are frequently used, that have previously been discussed enough so as to ascertain consensus on their reliability, rater than just including those that are frequently discussed. I'm aware that's not the original intention of the list, but it has by default become one of it's purposes. CNC (talk) 18:35, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Articulated far more eloquently, thanks. I agree with the perennially "used on Wikipedia" addition. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 08:56, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

What does Uses section in the table mean?

What does the Uses section and then 1, 2, 3 in the table mean? NamelessLameless (talk) 06:18, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

If you click on the number it will take you to search results of Wikipedia articles using the source. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 09:07, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh. NamelessLameless (talk) 21:19, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

List purge

I've purged all entries that only had one discussion from the list (26 entries out of ~435, a ~6% reduction in list size/3% reduction in page size). I've put them below in case someone finds other discussions. I think I've got them all here. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:59, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I've also redirected the shortcuts to this discussion so they don't get lost/point to nowhere. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:02, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I've reverted for now. Those entries were all (at a glance) the result of RFCs whose clear intent and consensus was to add them to this page; removing them would require discussion and consensus. More generally, the argument that something must actually have perennial discussion before being discussed and added to this list was actually raised at several of those RFCs and rejected, so removing them under the argument that they're not actually perennial has been considered and rejected; while it's the original premise for this page and part of its name, it's not a hard-and-fast requirement. And finally, most importantly, it's just not an improvement. We list the prior discussions, so anyone who is concerned can look at them and determine how frequently something has been discussed in the past; but it's still valuable to be able to have a go-to list of such RFCs and the consensus they reached. Deleting them from here and putting them on talk (???) serves no purpose beyond making the established consensus for those sources harder to find, which I don't think we ought to be doing and which makes no real sense anyway - there still is a consensus in each case, after all. (Also, while I know it wasn't intentional, please don't make a sweeping controversial change like this to a page with no discussion, then immediately follow it up with other sweeping improvements all over the page; because you changed so many things, I had to restore an older revision and then manually go through and re-instate all the changes you made afterwards in order to revert you cleanly.) --Aquillion (talk) 01:26, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Just went to use one..... Our shortcuts don't go to the main page anymore.... They still redirect here. Can we get some more input on this whole topic. Moxy🍁 02:25, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

As the list changes have been reverted I've also for the moment reverted the changes to the redirects. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:56, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

putting them under a new list below the current one as "niche sources" or something would be better NotQualified (talk) 20:47, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

List collapsed for length

Perennial sources Source Status (legend) Discussions Uses List Last Summary Asian News International (ANI)  2021 2021 Asian News International is an Indian news agency. For general reporting, Asian News International is considered to be between marginally reliable and generally unreliable, with consensus that it is biased and that it should be attributed in-text for contentious claims. For its coverage related to Indian domestic politics, foreign politics, and other topics in which the Government of India may have an established stake, there is consensus that Asian News International is questionable and generally unreliable due to its reported dissemination of pro-government propaganda. 1   Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI)  2021 2021 There is consensus that use of Australian Strategic Policy Institute should be evaluated for due weight and accompanied with in text attribution when used. Editors consider the Australian Strategic Policy Institute to be a biased or opinionated source that is reliable in the topic area of Australian defence and strategic issues but recommend care as it is a think tank associated with the defence industry in Australia and the Australian Government. 1   AVN (Adult Video News, AVN Magazine)  2021 2021 AVN is considered generally reliable for the adult industry. Editors should take care to ensure the content is not a republished press release (which is marked as such in search). 1   Bustle  2019 2019 There is consensus that the reliability of Bustle is unclear and that its reliability should be decided on an instance-by-instance basis. Editors noted that it has an editorial policy and that it will issue retractions. Editors also noted previous issues it had around reliability and that its content is written by freelance writers – though there is no consensus on whether this model affects their reliability. 1   California Globe  2021 2021 There is consensus that The California Globe is generally unreliable. Editors note the lack of substantial editorial process, the lack of evidence for fact-checking, and the bias present in the site's material. Editors also note the highly opinionated nature of the site as evidence against its reliability. 1   Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR)  2020 2020 The Center for Economic and Policy Research is an economic policy think tank. Though its articles are regularly written by subject-matter experts in economics and are frequently cited by reliable sources, most editors consider the CEPR biased or opinionated, so its uses should be attributed. 1   Coda Media (Coda Story)  2021 2021 A 2021 RfC found consensus that Coda Media is generally reliable for factual reporting. A few editors consider Coda Media a biased source for international politics related to the U.S., as it has received funding from the National Endowment for Democracy, though not to the extent that it affects reliability. 1   Correo del Orinoco  2023 2023 There is consensus that Correo del Orinoco is generally unreliable because it is used to amplify misleading and/or false information. Many editors consider Correo del Orinoco to be used by the Venezuelan government to promulgate propaganda due to its connection to the Bolivarian Communication and Information System. 1   Daily NK  2022 2022 The Daily NK is an online newspaper based in South Korea that reports on stories based inside of North Korea. There is no consensus as to if it should be deprecated or used with attribution. There is a consensus that this source, as well as all other sources reporting on North Korea, is generally unreliable. However, due to a paucity of readily accessible information on North Korea, as well as a perception that Daily NK is not more unreliable than other sources on the topic, it can be used as a source, albeit with great caution. 1   The Dorchester Review  2024 2024 There is consensus The Dorchester Review is generally unreliable, as it is not peer reviewed by the wider academic community. It has a poor reputation for fact-checking and lacks an editorial team. The source may still be used in some circumstances e.g. for uncontroversial self-descriptions, and content authored by established subject-matter experts. 1   Encyclopedia Astronautica  2023 2023 Encyclopedia Astronautica is a website on space history. A 2023 RfC found no consensus on the reliability of the site. There appears to be a consensus that this is a valuable resource, but it lacks editorial oversight, contains errors, and is no longer updated. Caution needs to taken in using this source. 1   The Globe and Mail  2021 2021 In a 2021 RfC, editors found a strong consensus that The Globe and Mail is generally reliable for news coverage and is considered a newspaper of record. 1   The Indian Express  2020 2020 The Indian Express is considered generally reliable under the news organizations guideline. 1   International Fact-Checking Network (IFCN)  2020 2020 The Poynter Institute's International Fact-Checking Network (IFCN) reviews fact-checking organizations according to a code of principles. There is consensus that it is generally reliable for determining the reliability of fact-checking organizations. 1   Mail & Guardian  2021 2021 The Mail & Guardian is a South African newspaper. There is consensus that it is generally reliable. 1   Metal-experience.com  2021 2021 Metal-experience.com was determined to be generally unreliable for factual reporting. 1   Newslaundry  2020 2020 There is consensus that Newslaundry is generally reliable. Some editors have expressed concerns regarding possible bias in its political narratives and reporting on rival publications; in cases where this could reasonably apply, attribution is recommended, and sufficient. 1   Our Campaigns  2021 2021 Our Campaigns is considered generally unreliable due to its publishing of user-generated content. 1   People Make Games  2023 2023 There is consensus that People Make Games is generally reliable for the topic of video games, although care should be taken if using the source for WP:BLP-related information due to concerns that they have no clear editorial policy, and they are a WP:EXPERTSPS. — Pride.com  2020 2020 There is consensus that Pride.com is marginally reliable and that its articles should be evaluated for reliability on a case-by-case basis. Editors consider Pride.com comparable to BuzzFeed in its presentation. 1   Quadrant  2019 2019 Most editors consider Quadrant generally unreliable for factual reporting. The publication is a biased and opinionated source. 1   RTÉ (Raidió Teilifís Éireann)  2023 2023 RTÉ is an Irish public service broadcaster. There is consensus that RTÉ is generally reliable. 1   Sherdog  2020 2020 In the 2020 RfC, Sherdog was determined to be not self-published and can be used for basic information on MMA fighters and matches. However, it is considered less reliable than ESPN and other generally reliable sources, so use with caution. 1   Sky News Australia  2022 2022 In the 2022 RfC, there is a consensus that additional considerations apply to Sky News Australia, and that it should not be used to substantiate any exceptional claims. The talk shows for Sky News Australia engage in disinformation and should be considered generally unreliable. The majority of articles labeled as "news" contain short blurbs and video segments, which should similarly be considered unreliable. For articles with significant written content, caution is advised. Sky News Australia is not to be confused with the UK Sky News; the two are presently unaffiliated. 1   XBIZ  2021 2021 XBIZ is considered generally reliable for the adult industry. However, it publishes press releases/sponsored content without clearly delineating the distinction between their own journalism and the promotional content of others. Thus, editors should take care that the source is not used for content obviously or likely to be promotional. 1

AntWiki reliability

@YoungForever has mentioned that AntWiki is not a reliable source and should not be used to cite Wikipedia articles due to it being user-generated. However, I believe that it can be used because contrary to Wikipedia which can be edited by everyone, it can only be edited by ant experts confirmed by administrators as stated on its website. See full discussion on User talk:YoungForever. Should it be considered reliable or not? 2003 LN6 07:04, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

This page is for discussing changes to the perennial sources list, you should post this to the reliable sources noticeboard. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:52, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Done. 2003 LN6 16:01, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Could we talk some horse sense re Discogs?

Executive summary: images of records and record jackets at Discogs should be allowed as refs, and this noted in the Discogs entry. (I'm not talking about the text in Discogs. All or virtually all of that is no good, mustn't be used, fine. I'm talking about images.)

I believe this is a maintenance issue and so fit for being posted here. Willing to be corrected ofc.

Argument : first, let me lay out some background statements -- truths, I believe:

1. Our #1 remit is to serve the reader.
2. We can't hope for say 99.9% accuracy in our honestly ref'd statements of fact. One wrong fact out of a thousand is far more than humanly possible I'd say, and in fact our actual number must be worse. Few of our sources are that accurate for starters, and being human we will sometimes misread them and so on.
3. Works of art and artifice are their own references for their own contents, I believe. So, to verify basic facts about a book, film, record, etc., the reader may obtain a copy of the work and check for herself, and we consider this to be sufficient reffing. After all, most all track listings etc. etc. etc. are reffed this way -- no link to a secondary source used, expected, or usually possible. (More easily obtainable refs are a welcome bonus of course -- and that's why I'm here.) For good or ill (and there's some of each), this is our de facto rule.
4. We are vulnerable to elaborate hoaxes -- well-faked refs I mean -- for all subjects, and surely some get thru (many (tho not all) are to push some POV, I would guess). But faked refs are probably very rare, and we assume no hoax refs absent some reason to suspect. Otherwise we'd be paranoid, and paralyzed.

Most everyone on board with this so far?

So. Images of record labels and jackets uploaded to Discogs (by an anon person and not formally checked by anyone, understood), can we use those? How accurate are they for their contents and how accurate are they for facts?

For contents -- absent a deliberate elaborate hoax, which would involve skilled photoshopping of the image (often several), it must be very high. Fewer than one in a thousand of Discogs label images are not photoshopped hoaxes, I am confident. Why would some artist go to this trouble? There's no ideological reason.

As to statements of fact -- who the songwriter is, who really wrote most of the script, etc. -- yes, the label, screen credits, book forward, etc can and sometimes do get this wrong, by mistake or deliberately. But, we are recommending the source to the reader as sufficiently reliable already. So providing a much easier way the reader to access an image of the source and verify our statement without trolling thru used record shops and eBay and so forth... this is a considerable service to the reader, n'est-ce pas? (BTW Discogs has URLs for the images alone, so no worries about the link target being polluted with unreliable text.)

I can't think of any good, none-kneejerk or circular counterarguments. I could be wrong, of course, and am willing to be educated. Otherwise I recommend we move forward with this, mnmh? Herostratus (talk) 03:37, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

The only websites I know that give any reliable provenance and sourcing to images are museums, direct academic publishers, professional artists' own work, and usually-but-sometimes-not newspapers. Everywhere else, including Wikipedia, seems more or less content to have pictures speak for themselves as far as reliability. If you can permalink to it, I don't see how images on Discogs (or similar UGC+ sites) can be much worse than the images posted most anywhere else online (including uploaded here) that are reused far too often. Since they are photos of a published work, the auditing process is straightforward -- somebody who has access to that published work available will complain or edit if it's inaccurate. (This kind of thing happens with photographs, maps, diagrams, etc all the time.)

Support your suggestion as it's essentially on par with image quality control at Commons. In future I'd want to fix that and get some standards for using images on WP, but not many others seem to support the idea. SamuelRiv (talk) 04:33, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Support since I don't see how using a scan from Discogs is worse than Wikipedia relying on an editor copying the information from an album they have a home or found on Google image search using no sources at all. Cortador (talk) 08:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment – I don't really see how "this isn't worse than another thing we probably shouldn't do" is a compelling argument. In any case, the point is verifiability – it seems Discogs is only serving as the host of the image file, and not as the source per se (an actual source would seem to be the album or a reliable source discussing it that includes the image within). That is to say, since we're not using Discogs as a source, we shouldn't be treating this as a RS question at all or why we should bother including Discogs links as a matter of course. Remsense ‥ 论 08:38, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Remsense, in that it's the album being referenced not Discog. The question then becomes can the images at Discog be trusted? Probably a question for RSN not RSP. Also I would say that 3/. is a bug not a feature and such listing are regular the target of subtle vandalism, it would be a boon if we did have a reputable online listing for tracks. Albums are a reliable source for themselves, but secondary sources are preferred. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I'd like to plug the {{cite object}} subtemplate that I created for cases like (3) (or mainly for image captions/descriptions, museum catalog items, internal secondary references to specific objects, etc.) -- in-text of course one should carefully beware of the guidelines for wp:primary historical sources. One should take caution that while I might agree that a work of art is a source for its contents (the definition of a primary source), a photograph or mp3 is a reproduction or representation. Without the uploader explicitly noting the where when and what, or the illustrator giving the source material for an svg, there is a lot that can go wrong in citing the uploaded photograph, if the uploader doesn't give the basic required image info per policy, as representative of the object. SamuelRiv (talk) 17:51, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Press coverage on this page

I just added another one to the template, there's quite a few there now. I'm not saying a WP-article about this page would be a good idea, but it might survive. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:16, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

It's RFC time

For some time now, I think it's been years, I and others have raised various complaints about RSP, such as:

• The entire list is too long, making it unmanageable and difficult to use
• It includes sources about which there is absolutely no genuine dispute as to reliability, such as mainstream media (e.g. BBC)
• It includes sources where there have only been one or two discussions
• It includes sources where there haven't been any discussions in a very long time, like 5+ or 10+ years
• It includes sources where the discussions have only been attended by a few people, like less than 5
• It includes sources where the only discussions have been discussions that were only started for the purpose of listing a source at RSP, not because there is actually any perennial dispute about the reliability of the source (e.g., The Onion)

This is supposed to be a list of perennially-discussed sources, but it instead has morphed into a list of "approved and unapproved sources". I have seen a number of editors try to prune the list, and been reverted each time. Recent examples on this page right now: #Entries that might be trimmed, #List purge.

I find this to be an intolerable state. We need to tighten up the inclusion criteria for RSP, we need to prune the list of RSP, we need to stop adding sources to RSP that aren't actually in dispute. Because some editors clearly disagree with this (as judged by their reverts of pruning efforts), I guess we will need to have an RFC. So let's have an WP:RFCBEFORE.

I think the "RFC question," or proposal, should be to change WP:RSPCRITERIA, which currently requires the following:

1. two or more discussions
2. each discussion must be "significant"
   • "significant" means two editors where the source's name is in the section heading, or three editors otherwise, each of whom must make at least one comment on the source's reliability
3. Or alternatively, at least one RFC at RSN

I think we should change that criteria to be something more like this:

1. at least three discussions
2. within the last 10 years (or 5 years)
3. each discussion must have at least 5 editors commenting on the source's reliability

Additionally, we should have a rule that there can be no RSN RFC unless there have been at least 3 past discussions with no consensus, or a prior RFC (to see if consensus has changed), and that prior RFC had to have been at least 3-5 years ago (or there has been some event that justifies revisiting the issue, e.g. a major scandal at the source).

The idea is to beef up "significance" by requiring 5 editors to participate; to ensure "perennial" by requiring 3 discussions and requiring the dispute to not be stale (because 10 years is a long time and things change... if no one has brought it up in 10 years, it's not perennial anymore, even if it once was). I think we should cut down on the RFCs, especially RFCs that are designed to add/remove an entry to RSP, rather than designed to resolve an actual perennial dispute over the source. The idea is to stop the notion of: just because two or three people disagree about a source once or twice, doesn't mean we add it to RSP. The idea is to end up with a much shorter WP:RSP that really only lists perennial discussions, and does not waste time listing sources that are obviously reliable (BBC) or obviously unreliable (The Onion).

Brainstorming/ranting here out loud, but I'm pretty keen on having an RFC about making RSP more usable and breaking the logjam. Any feedback on this proposed criteria, on what the RFC question should be, on what the proposed changes to RSPCRITERIA should be? Levivich (talk) 17:13, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

This sounds like a change in the right direction, though I'd need to think through the details of the proposal. Alaexis_¿question? 20:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I would like to bring into consideration for contrast the Wikipedia:New page patrol source guide, which is a project by @Rosguill: that backlinks every source discussed by 2+ editors on RSN (which I think is useful to do) and then makes their own 3-tier judgement on the outcome of that discussion. That page's categorization has been incorporated uncritically into editors' bot scripts and occasionally referenced in on-wiki discussion, despite single-editor oversight. (Now, as is clear from the essay's Talk page, this state was never that editor's intention.) I am hoping to help make that essay more usable going forward. In the meantime, it should serve a very clear and distinct purpose from a more definitive, consensus-driven, RSP.

RSP meanwhile, should be thorough enough that it is a useful primary reference for quick manual lookup, bot scripts, and at least a small amount of conflict mitigation (or at least more mitigation than causation). The notion of "obviously reliable" versus "obviously unreliable" is not always obvious, or at least not for the 2nd and 3rd uses I listed. The Onion and BBC will likely still be listed because the Beeb is stratified in various categories of various reliability standards, while Rottentomatoes' "top critic" The AV Club used to be part of The Onion publication and is still owned by them, so also may be worth noting as a separate category. (Of course it may be just obvious that AV Club is RS and BBC Bitesize (or whatever else the youth section used to be called) is yellow at best). That nobody finds the need to question/update the ratings here still is that the ratings are still noncontroversial as the content standards have changed which lends to the notion that they're "obvious" -- but I'd still think that my 2nd and 3rd use cases are important enough to warrant their listing.) SamuelRiv (talk) 21:12, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your view. I wonder how widely it's held, because it's the opposite of my view, and I think both views are held by some number of editors, but I'm not sure which is consensus, and I think it would be helpful to find out. What you're describing is what I'd call a "source list" or "source index": a list of sources and whether they're reliable, useful for manual lookup, bots, scripts, and as a reference for conflict resolution. This is not the same thing as a list of perennial sources, which is, to quote the first sentence of WP:RSP: "sources whose reliability and use on Wikipedia are frequently discussed".

A source list and a perennial list have two very different purposes. The source list is to tell people about the reliability of sources. This is helpful for anyone (human or computer) who wants to find out the reliability of source--they can look it up on the list. A perennial list isn't for that purpose; rather, it tells people about whether sources have been discussed frequently. The point of the perennial list like RSP isn't to tell people which sources are reliable and which aren't, it's to reduce the number of unnecessary new threads at WP:RSN. So before somebody starts a discussion at RSN, they check RSP to make sure that source hasn't already been discussed frequently before. If it has, they can reference those discussions (and then decide if a new one is worth starting); if it hasn't, then they start the discussion.

Maybe instead of an RFC about changing RSPCRITERIA, the RFC should be about whether RSP should be a source list or a perennial list (or if it should be both, or we should have two lists). Because if it's going to be a source list instead of a perennial list, then we probably should move the page to WP:Source list or WP:Source index, and rewrite it accordingly (which would, anyway, require changing RSPCRITERIA). Levivich (talk) 21:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

• Personally I think the problem is not too many items on the list but that we should categorize the list better and provide the option for more, not less detail, which might mean having more detailed separate subpages about each source and the discussions or broken up in some different way. Maybe even shorter overview on the main page and an expando-collapsed template subpage. I also think one of the gaps is that there are not particularly rigorous criteria about what are acceptable arguments in RSN discussions. For example, we specifically mark self-published fact-check sites like Ad Fontes, MBFC etc as unreliable, but people still use them in arguments because there isn't a formally rigorous bar on doing so. Andre🚐 21:40, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
• Could you elaborate on the rationale for the recency requirement? I would anticipate that having something added here would cut down on future discussions of it, because it provides a "definitive" answer one way or the other, meaning entries would be removed due to "timing out" rather than an actual consensus change. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:18, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

  At some point, the determination becomes outdated. If we want to know if a source is reliable, it doesn't really matter what people thought about it 15 or 20 years ago. If nobody has sought to revisit the issue in that much time, it's not perennial. Levivich (talk) 14:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

• The determination becomes outdated when something changes, which could happen in ten weeks or ten years. But in the absence of change, consensus doesn't expire, and removing it from the list would just make that consensus harder to point to. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:59, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

  I tend to agree with Nikkimaria. While WP:CCC an old consensus still is useful. WP:RECENTISM I think otherwise. Andre🚐 01:03, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I fail to see how the list is "too long", let alone "unmanageable". You can just use Ctrl+F or your phone browser's search function to easily find sources on the list. Furthermore, regarding the BBC News example: the reliability of its Arab version (now discontinued) was questioned not too long ago, and there's cases like that for many sources, even ones that have been considered to be reliable for a long time. I can also promise you that as soon as you remove sources like that from the list, this is going to be used as a bad faith attack vector by people who want to remove well-sources content from Wikipedia. Cortador (talk) 08:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:CHOKING has a little on that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:04, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Fwiw, the Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Page_size discussion is listed at WP:CR. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:02, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I do think a table to lay out the clear problematic sources like Fox News, Breitbart, Forbes contributors, etc, where an explanation of why they are yellow or red, is necessary, but I would suggest that for those sources that are typically green or have little doubt to other states (like BBC, NYTimes, etc) as to list them out with links to relevant discussions as we have done at WP:VG/S at the end of the page. We should try to document and index those discussions, but inclusion in the table is too much. emphasis for t — Masem (t) 15:27, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Whatever happens there needs to be a list of prior discussions on RSN, so that the same discussions aren't just repeated endlessly. This is at odds with making a comprehensive list where sources are added so they can be formatted green by scripts. As to old discussion maybe after a defined time maybe they could be moved to an archive list. I think the question of what should this list be is the first one to answer. If it should be a list of prior discussions the criteria should likely be tightened up, if it should be comprehensive then criteria should be quite different and a new listing of prior RSN discussions needs to be made. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

At this point I think the contention between having a general list and a summary of past RSN discussions can only be solved by splitting. That way the two purposes want be at odds with each other. This page could be marked as historical a new "Sources list" could be created listing all sources and something else created to only list past discussions. The past discussions list could then have it's inclusion criteria tightened. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:19, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I am basically with Andrevan, in that I think the issue is not the length but the lack of organization. If anything I would like to add as many sources as possible to the list. Loki (talk) 22:52, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Concur. Maybe have a general source list and a subset of those listed as "perennial"? But at that point the second page seems sorta redundant. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:51, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

RFC question

Thank you to everyone for taking the time to share their thoughts. I think it's pretty clear that my proposing the tighter criteria I suggested above is not the way to proceed. I'm thinking, instead, of a much broader, open-ended RFC question, maybe something like:

Should WP:RSP be changed?

That would allow responses that advocate for change in various directions (smaller/bigger, looser/tighter, one list/two list, etc.), or no change at all. Thoughts? Levivich (talk) 17:42, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

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