Talk:Beyoncé

Infobox

The lead of Lady Gaga's article (a featured article) says: "Stefani Joanne Angelina Germanotta (/ˈstɛfəni ˌdʒɜːrməˈnɒtə/ STEF-ən-ee JUR-mə-NOT-ə) (born March 28, 1986), known professionally as Lady Gaga, is an American singer, songwriter, record producer, actress and businesswoman."

Beyoncé is also known for being a singer, songwriter, record producer, actress and businesswoman. If the lead of Lady Gaga's article is not seen as promotional, I do not understand why would adding "songwriter, record producer and businesswoman" to the lead of Beyoncé's article be so, esp. since Beyoncé definitely fulfills all those roles.

As explained in the article, Beyoncé has received co-writing credits for most of the songs recorded with Destiny's Child and nearly all the original songs she has recorded solo. Songwriting (regardless of songwriting controversies) is her main profession next to being a singer. I'd add the three titles mentioned above or at least "songwriter" to the lead, once again, regardless of songwriting controversies. Beyoncé was awarded for her songwriting, and in "May 2011, Billboard magazine listed Beyoncé at number 17 on their list of the Top 20 Hot 100 Songwriters for having co-written eight singles that hit number one on the Billboard Hot 100 chart."

Note (regarding the 'Songwriting credits' section): The article says: "The controversy surrounding her songwriting credits began with interviews in which she attributed herself as the songwriter for songs in which she was a co-writer or for which her contributions were marginal. In a cover story for Vanity Fair in 2005, she claimed to have "written" several number-one songs for Destiny's Child, contrary to the credits, which list her as a co-writer among others."

It is common for artists to say they "wrote a song" when they actually mean they "co-wrote" a song. They say they "wrote" the song for short, but in Beyoncé's case, it is assumed she was of bad faith... And it is not too uncommon for certain artists to receive a songwriting credit for "marginal" contributions. For these reasons, I am questioning the relevance of parts of that section. qedk, TruthGuardians, MaJic, GiuliaZB, JG66, BD2412 what do you think?

• EDIT: I now see that consensus was recently reached to remove "songwriter" from the lead, but that does not apply to the Infobox. Israell (talk) 00:52, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I see that an editor added "record producer", which I approve. Israell (talk) 21:14, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

The lead sentence of Madonna's article also has the same problem. Here's the discussion: [1]. I'd add those professions back myself, but I'd rather some consensus is reached. Israell (talk) 21:27, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

There was a consensus of "no" about this earlier --> Talk:Beyoncé/Archive_13#Should_she_be_defined_as_a_songwriter_in_the_lead? isento (talk) 22:26, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Relevant guideline: In general, a position, activity, or role should not be included in the lead paragraph if: a) the role is not otherwise discussed in the lead (per MOS:LEAD, don't tease the reader), b) the role is not significantly covered in the body of the article, or, c) the role is auxiliary to a main profession of the person ... (Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#cite_note-1) isento (talk) 22:30, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

isento, consensus applied to the lead, not the Infobox. Songwriting is definitely one of Beyoncé's main professions, and that is well-documented. As explained in the article, Beyoncé has received co-writing credits for most of the songs recorded with Destiny's Child and nearly all the original songs she has recorded solo. Songwriting (regardless of songwriting controversies) is her main profession next to being a singer. The Infobox must therefore display it.

"Barely does production, and definitely not known for it." Not true. Barely? Beyoncé produced all of her studio albums, all of her live albums, most of her singles, etc. Beyoncé is quite known for production (song production, executive production, concerts/live album production, etc.), it's well-documented, and she has her own production company, Parkwood Entertainment. Some sources out of many more: . Israell (talk) 00:40, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

So as I see it, and I’m sure there may be more experienced editors, the info box must match what’s in the article. If consensus was reached to remove “song writer” from the lead, that doesn’t necessarily mean to remove it from info box, especially if mentioned throughout the article as being a songwriter. TruthGuardians (talk) 15:04, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Also, regarding a comment written by isento on the linked archived talk page, it is not true that an artist that has exclusively co-written songs is not a songwriter but only a co-writer or "part-song-writer." The article on songwriting makes it very clear co-writers incl. top-liners are indeed songwriters. Israell (talk) 15:06, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

The article does not make that clear. In fact, the only source supporting that section does not even use the term "songwriter" in its prose. The purpose of the infobox is to summarize the essentials of the article. It appears that most sources that discuss her songwriting meaningfully are sources questioning it, while those that don't are merely industry awards or accolades with no insight into it. isento (talk) 18:59, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I am not going to sift thru all those citations (WP:REFBOMB) to verify your claims about her association with production (please quote relevant text). But in response to your claim in the recent edit summary, her songwriting is as well documented as it is well disputed. isento (talk) 17:56, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

There is no discussion in the article of her record production. There are credits in album articles, but there is no insight into what she actually does. And she does not appear to do it professionally, say as being paid to produce for another artist or projects other than her own, which is what being a producer suggests or entails, I believe. isento (talk) 18:01, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps we can reach a compromise and use Musician instead of songwriter or producer. A musician can do a variety of things but not be defined necessarily by one of those things. There is discussion of her singing and musicianship in a broad sense, so I would support "Singer and musician". isento (talk) 18:04, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Beyoncé is credited for co-writing nearly all of her solo songs as well as most of the Destiny's Child songs. Beyoncé currently has 346 songwriting credits on ASCAP. Here's the list: https://www.ascap.com/repertory#ace/writer/341826274/KNOWLES%20BEYONCE%20GISSELLE. Beyoncé Knowles is therefore a songwriter. I am aware of the controversy, the allegations, but that does not negate the fact she has co-written the vast majority of her songs. It is possible certain songs were written and she barely modified them, but that does not mean it is always the case. It is not up to Wikipedia to speculate and determine if Beyoncé Knowles is a "real" songwriter or not. People may have their opinion, but the fact she has 346 songwriting credits on ASCAP is verifiable. For instance, some people may not consider certain singers "real singers" or "real vocalists", but Wikipedia will still call them "singers" and "vocalists."

Britney has 72 song credits on BMI [2], much less than Beyoncé, and she is credited as a songwriter on Wikipedia. Mandy Moore, Debbie Gibson, Nicki Minaj, Rihanna, Lil' Kim, Foxy Brown, Ava Max, Dua Lipa, Lily Allen, Christina Aguilera, P!nk, Solange Knowles (Beyoncé's sister), Farrah Franklin (formerly of Destiny's Child), Kim Petras and many more recording artists on Wikipedia are defined as songwriters in the lead of their articles or at least the infobox of said articles. Once again, Wikipedia is about WP:V, and it is not up to us editors to make a judgement call on whether or not Beyoncé is indeed a songwriter in spite of verifiable registered ASCAP songwriting credits. Israell (talk) 20:16, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

As for the sources I've listed earlier, they pertain to her song production, concert/live album production, soundtrack album production, movie production, etc. Israell (talk) 20:10, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

It is up to editors to make judgement calls. All the ASCAP source proves is she's been credited. It is not an independent source. isento (talk) 18:55, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

@Israell: Thanks for taking this up and good luck with it! @Isento: There was no consensus reached previously so I don't know where you got that from. As I have previously said, you cherry-picked negative comments from completely random musicians instead of the larger number of positive comments from her actual collaborators that fully explained her songwriting ability and style. "It appears that most sources that discuss her songwriting meaningfully are sources questioning it" and "And she does not appear to do it professionally, say as being paid to produce for another artist or projects other than her own, which is what being a producer suggests or entails" are just more of your unsubstantiated and incorrect assertions. I once again hope you act correctly and do the right thing for this section. Bgkc4444 (talk) 19:43, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Eight people said "no". Two said "yes". Sounds like a consensus to me. isento (talk) 21:27, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Polling is not a substitute for discussion. Bgkc4444 (talk) 21:37, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Besides, the consensus did not apply to the Infobox. Beyoncé has 346 legal, official songwriting credits. Whether one considers her a "real" songwriter or not is irrelevant in that section of the article. I agree w/ Bgkc4444. Israell (talk) 00:52, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry you overlooked the large block of text below and adjacent to those votes. But that constituted discussion. isento (talk) 01:22, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I am not disputing the relevancy of songwriting credits. I am saying there were valid objections from as many, if not more, editors than you two in the previous discussion, which you are dismissing on the technicality that it did not specify the infobox. Unless I am mistaken, the heading of this section includes "lead", does it not? isento (talk) 01:24, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I think the clear controversy surrounding the songwriting credits -- non-independent-source testimonials notwithstanding -- demands this discussion be more nuanced than what you're providing it. This is an encyclopedia, not merely an office of public records. Articles are to be based largely on third-party sources, and while there are industry accolades, passing mentions of her as a songwriter, and organizational records, there are also more in-depth-coverage articles focusing squarely on her songwriting and questions surrounding it, and we ought to use the best sources on the particular topic being discussed (WP:STICKTOSOURCE). Negative comments were not "cherry-picked from random musicians". If you do not think that questioning the idea of her as a songwriter even merits discussion, then you are not respecting the fact that there is a reasonable allowance for speculation, suggestion, and personal knowledge in talk page discussions (Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Central_points). isento (talk) 01:39, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

You are free to disagree with my ideas and conclusions as it pertains to the content being discussed. But stop suggesting I'm acting incorrectly. I'm not obligated to agree with you, especially if I've thoughtfully elucidated my concerns so you'd get where I'm coming from. Start another RfC, poll more editors, reach a new consensus, etc, if you don't like where I'm arriving at. isento (talk) 01:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

And please stop bringing up other articles (WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS). I'm not in charge of potential errors elsewhere and cannot be expected to answer for them, especially when these pop-icon articles tend to attract overzealous fans who tend to lose sight of editorial judgement... isento (talk) 01:48, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

@Isento: That did not constitute discussion. The only people who engaged in discussion (and not just voted with their opinion) were Timeheist, you and me. As WP:PNSD says: "Wikipedia works by building consensus. When conflicts arise, they are resolved through discussion, debate and collaboration. While not forbidden, polls should be used with care. When polls are used, they should ordinarily be considered a means to help in determining consensus, but do not let them become your only determining factor. While polling forms an integral part of several processes (such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion), polls are generally not used for article development. Remember that Wikipedia is not a democracy; even when polls appear to be "votes", most decisions on Wikipedia are made on the basis of consensus, not on vote-counting or majority rule. In summary, polling is not a substitute for discussion."

Negative comments were cherry-picked from random musicians. In what world does a Reddit user telling a songwriter - who never even worked with Beyonce before - an unsubstantiated (and false) claim about Beyonce's songwriting and asking her thoughts on that "fact" constitute a reliable source of commentary on Beyonce's songwriting style? I can no longer tell whether you are doing this on purpose or you still don't see it, but do you not agree that it would be much better to fill the section about Beyonce's songwriting style with material that explains how Beyonce writes songs (i.e. her collaborative approach) using reliable sources from people who are actually privy to such information, instead of including it with comments from random musicians just because they support the "Beyonce can't write and is a thief" claim you so desperately want to include?

"If you do not think that questioning the idea of her as a songwriter even merits discussion, then you are not respecting the fact that there is a reasonable allowance for speculation, suggestion, and personal knowledge in talk page discussions" - No idea where you got that from?

"I've thoughtfully elucidated my concerns so you'd get where I'm coming from" - Is this meant to be a joke? You never elucidated your concerns thoughtfully. I even asked you to clarify what your concerns were in the previous discussion yet you never answered nor actually responded to my points, and instead continued with your typical personal attacks and insults on my intelligence. Bgkc4444 (talk) 11:52, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Wow, look at you tell me. isento (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

When I started this discussion, I mentioned the lead because I had not seen the previous discussion (regarding the "songwriter" title in the lead). The discussion then shifted the infobox. I have listed 15 recording artists who are defined as "songwriters" in the lead or at least the infobox of their respective articles.

Also, as explained earlier, Gaga is defined in the lead (and also the infobox) of her (featured) article as a "singer, songwriter, record producer, actress and businesswoman." As for Miley Cyrus, she is defined in the lead and the infobox of her article as a "singer, songwriter, actress, and record producer." As for Kylie Minogue, she is defined in the lead and the infobox of her article as a "singer, songwriter, actress, record producer and television judge." Are those artists known for generally producing records for other artists? No. As for Beyoncé, she not only produced all of her own solo albums, all of her solo songs, she also produced all of Destiny's Child's studio albums (many songs) except for the first one.

[3]. isento (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

You'll notice that bandmates Kelly Rowland and Michelle Williams, just like Beyoncé, all have songwriting credits on Destiny_Fulfilled, Destiny's Child last studio album. Are we going to assume those are all stolen or bought credits, that they only changed one word or one note every time? Yes, suspicions were raised by some about Beyoncé's songwriting credits, and the article does cover such suspicions, but it doesn't negate the verifiable and well-documented fact Beyoncé is indeed a professional, regular songwriter and record producer. Besides, the songwriting credits section of the article does have comments from professional who agree Beyoncé does indeed write her songs. Israell (talk) 14:23, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

According to Lindsey Weber of Vulture (the source citing that "unsubstantiated claim"), "Despite having songwriting credits all over her new album, it’s open knowledge that Bey doesn't really write her own songs". Doesn't feel like an "unsubstantiated claim". Perry's response was to the spirit of that idea. Perry is among the industry's most prolific songwriters. I don't see how she is less reliable or relevant than a source who's worked closely with Beyonce, which according to our guidelines is a source we should depend on less, if at all in a bio, because it's not an independent source (WP:BASIC). isento (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

If I were to compile 346 parking tickets, that would not make me a professional criminal. isento (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Please just open an RfC. You pinged other editors here, I noticed above, but this unstructured mess of a discussion is hardly enticing to an uninvolved editor. If you feel I'm so wrong and unapproachable, then stop pinging me and open something more formal for others to talk to you. isento (talk) 15:14, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Interesting that you agree that Beyonce's collaborators are "the most reliable source for songwriting" and believe they should be used in the article, but only when they support your personal opinion that Beyonce should not be considered a songwriter, instead of also believing so in the case of the majority of her collaborators who have detailed her songwriting. And why do you believe that Lindsey Weber of Vulture is a perfectly acceptable reliable source for such a contentious claim about a living person? "Perry is among the industry's most prolific songwriters"? Why does that matter? If someone tells a "prolific songwriter" a lie about Beyonce and then asks her thoughts, in what world can that be considered a reliable enough source to make such a contentious claim about a living person, instead of using sources that are actually informed of her songwriting? Writing a songwriting section shouldn't be that hard if an editor is approaching it from a neutral point of view, but if one is so hell-bent on trying to paint Beyonce as a thief then of course the editor would insert an indiscriminate collection of opinions that support their belief from every random musician or journalist they can find. I hope that's not what you're doing here and, again, hope that you do the right thing for this topic. Bgkc4444 (talk) 16:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I never said I agreed with what you are linking. I said: "Thanks. I've included that in the article." So far, you have been the only person I know of here to mention Beyonce and "thief" in the same sentence. Maybe you mistook "thanks" as agreeing, when I was just being polite. But I can see how that would go over your head... isento (talk) 19:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not going to stoop to your level with your typical insults to my intelligence because I guess it makes a change from the obscene rants filled with personal attacks, profanity, sexism and ableism? And yes, you literally added the word "theft" to the article. And no, you missed the point. You agreed with that comment not because you said "thank you" but because you listened to it. If the people who actually know about Beyonce's songwriting from their experience with her are unreliable sources, as you now claim, why did you add the Fusari claim, among others? Bgkc4444 (talk) 21:17, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Ohhhh. Okay. Then I apologize for actually listening to an editor's comments in a talk page discussion. I will refrain from listening to any further editor comments here. Thank you for enlightening. So so sorry for my misapprehension that we should actually listen to each other in talk page discussions. I am overcome with immense guilt and profusely apologize for my abhorrent behavior. I should be punished. Perhaps a spanking is in order? isento (talk) 22:17, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

isento typed in regards to Beyoncé's 346 ASCAP-registered songwriting credits: "If I were to compile 346 parking tickets, that would not make me a professional criminal.", "It is up to editors to make judgement calls." Timeheist, Bgkc4444, NinjaRobotPirate, qedk, BD2412, what do you think of such a tone? Israell (talk) 21:08, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Note: For now, I am simply asking that "songwriter" remain the infobox since Beyoncé has 346 ASCAP-registered songwriting credits and it is well-documented she is indeed a songwriter. I see no use for an RfC. Suspicions raised by some over her songwriting as well as the praises she's received for her songwriting are mentioned in the "Songwriting section" of the article. Israell (talk) 17:09, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Should the subject of this article be defined as a songwriter in the infobox?

I am opening this in response to the above discussion, which has become untenable and messy. For the sake of the RfC's integrity, please restrict votes to "yes" or "no" and the like, and leave explanatory comments in #Discussion, where they can be discussed among participants. Thank you. isento (talk) 15:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Votes

• Conditional yes - Accompany it with a footnote saying she has never been credited as the sole writer for a song. isento (talk) 22:29, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

• Yes - I have no objection to such a footnote, but I do not believe it absolutely necessary. Israell (talk) 22:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - The word songwriter should be included in the infobox (and reinstated in the lead) and no qualifier should be added Bgkc4444 (talk) 10:44, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - Editors don’t get to decided who to consider a songwriter and who is not. An artists work dictates whether or not that is true, and credible sources mentioning such determines weather or not to label an artist as a song writer. There are credible sources that says she is. Personally I’m not big on Beyoncé, I don’t know much about her. I didn’t even know she wrote songs until these sources.TruthGuardians (talk) 13:29, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
• Yes. Only a few haters on the internet thought Beyoncé wasn't involved in writing her own songs. The issue came up after Lemonade, and was batted down by impartial observers.[4][5] Nobody with any authority says she is not a songwriter. Binksternet (talk) 20:39, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
• Yes — Lead is not the same with infobox and I don't see any problem to have included it in the infobox. If she has been criticized within the writing camp, it has been explained in an appropiate section ("Songwriting credits") and it's fine because we have both point of views (wich seems aren't a "minor point of view") and satisfy NPOV. Apoxyomenus (talk) 06:12, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
• Yes because she is credited as a songwriter on many songs, in awards, in articles, etc. Honestly, I'm confused about why this isn't in the lead anyway. People may have criticised her wanting to be credited as a songwriter, or the extent to which she's a songwriter, but dang if she's co-written a bunch of songs to any extent and gotten paid for them, then she's a professional songwriter. Xurizuri (talk) 14:13, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

I object to this RfC as there was already one pertaining to the lead just three months ago. Besides, there is no use for one more RfC. NinjaRobotPirate, qedk, if there were one more RfC, it should for now only pertain to the infobox. Some editors may oppose to "songwriter" being in the lead but not the infobox. The way the question is formulated, it could lead editors to vote "No" for the infobox just because they'd vote "No" for the lead. Israell (talk) 16:31, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

As I've explained earlier, Beyoncé has 346 ASCAP-registered song credits, she's been awarded for her songwriting and has received other accolades for it. Besides, some of her collaborators have confirmed she does indeed co-write her songs. The songwriting credits section of the article does address allegations raised by some pertaining to Beyoncé's songwriting, and allegations should not determine what's in the infobox. It is par of the course for recording artists who consistently write and/or co-write songs (for themselves and/or others) to be defined as songwriters in the infobox of their respective articles. "Songwriter" must remain in the infobox of Beyoncé's article. As for the lead sentence, I have no objection to the addition of "songwriter." Israell (talk) 20:59, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

One of her collaborators is quoted in the article as bringing doubts to her credits: Tedder vaguely questioned the ethics of her possible "demand" for a writing credit in other instances. And she has never been credited as the sole writer. If we were the keep it, I would agree to it if there could be a footnote beside it saying so. isento (talk) 22:23, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

• I have no objection to such a footnote, but I do not believe it absolutely necessary. That said, as I explained earlier, Wikipedia's article on songwriting makes it very clear co-writers incl. top-liners are indeed songwriters. A songwriter is a songwriter, whether or not they ever got a sole songwriting credit. To my knowledge, (this is not a case of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS) no Wikipedia article for a recording artist has such a criterion (a footnote if the artist never had a sole songwriting credit). This is a Wikipedia article, not a trial case w/ Beyoncé put on the stand for allegedly stealing credits and editors making a judgement call on whether or not she is a real songwriter, whether or not her 346 ASCAP-registered credits (WP:V) have merit. The infobox pertains to her occupations, and her one of her very main occupations is that of songwriter, period. Israell (talk) 04:00, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to be a mention of Beyonce as a "top-liner" ([6]). She's been credited as an executive producer too, but we practice editorial discretion based on other factors beyond simple credits. That is why I previously suggested "Musician" as a compromise, or just a footnote here given what's been reported. Are there other articles on artists who's credits have been disputed or questioned by sources, both independent and dependent? isento (talk) 04:54, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Again, I am merely one voter. The better judgements usually prevail in these discussions. So if it is yours, feel confident other voters will just say yes. Also, fyi, a while back before the last RfC, I believe I had added such a footnote as a compromise to "songwriter" remaining in the lead ... isento (talk) 05:02, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

I am leaning towards "no", given the concerns and opinions posted at an earlier RfC covering the same question in regards to the lead. But my thinking has been exhausted by the discussion above and would prefer to hear from other editors first at the moment. isento (talk) 19:55, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Beyonce is considered a songwriter by reliable sources and so that should be included in the infobox, as well as in the lead, but Isento removed it in the lead despite no consensus being reached. Regarding a footnote, in no way does an artist having co-writers mean that they are not a songwriter. That's a view belonging to an editor, not reliable sources or the songwriting article. It's one thing if there are claims about ghostwriters - and many artists are faced with claims about ghostwriters and yet there is no footnote in their articles - but saying an artist uses writing camps in no negates their status as a songwriter nor warrants a qualifier just because an editor believes that Beyonce should be seen as stealing credits and not writing her songs. Bgkc4444 (talk) 10:44, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

You're a liar. A consensus was reached. Those voters weren't required to agree or indulge in what you were saying in the discussion section, although @Tbhotch: did actually discuss with you. @Apoxyomenus:, @Sluzzelin:, @Bluesatellite: also did more than just merely vote. isento (talk) 16:01, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

I hope you will actually respond to my points so that we can reach a consensus instead of insulting me. No consensus was reached. Polling is not a substitute for discussion. And well, yes, if we want a consensus to be reached, we must take "into account all of the proper concerns raised", according to WP:CON. And none of those users properly took take part in the discussion section. Bluesatellite's only contribution to the discussion section was before you made it into an RfC with a discussion section and they never responded to my nor Timeheist's points after, and Sluzzelin's only contribution to the section was asking you to stop doing so many edits to the talk page consecutively and again didn't respond to our points. Bgkc4444 (talk) 16:38, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

If no actual consensus was reached in regards to the lead, "songwriter" should be added back to the lead, then. Singer, songwriter and record producer Ryan Tedder is quoted in the article as explaining the following: "Tedder elaborated when speaking to Gigwise that “She does stuff on any given song that, when you go from the demo to the final version, takes it to another level that you never would have thought of as the writer. For instance, on ‘Halo,’ that bridge on her version is completely different to my original one. Basically, she came in, ditched that, edited it, did her vocal thing on it, and now it’s become one of my favorite parts of the song. The whole melody, she wrote it spontaneously in the studio. So her credit on that song stems from that.”" That's what a top-liner does: "A top-line writer or top-liner is a songwriter who writes a song over a pre-made beat." (from Wiki's article on songwriting); she did at least that.

That was one song. And he was also quoted as vaguely question[ing] the ethics of her possible "demand" for a writing credit in other instances. I acknowledge she co-wrote "Halo" according to Ryan Tedder. I hope you can acknowledge the same guy suggested she has demanded writing credits on other songs. isento (talk) 16:05, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

DJ Swivel explained: "Then, once we had our leads, she'd knock out the backing vocals real easy, and most of the time she does her own vocal arrangements too, figuring out her own harmonies. To be honest, recording vocals was the easiest part of this record, just because she is so good. It makes my job so much easier.” That's another example of top-line writing; she did at least that.

Singer, songwriter and record producer The-Dream revealed: "We did a whole Fela album that didn’t go up. It was right before we did 4. We did a whole different sounding thing, about twenty songs. She said she wanted to do something that sounds like Fela. That’s why there’s so much of that sound in the “End of Time.” There’s always multiple albums being made. Most of the time we’re just being creative, period. We’re talking about B, somebody who sings all day long and somebody who writes all day long. There’s probably a hundred records just sitting around." One more confirmation from a fellow musician Beyoncé Knowles is indeed a songwriter and truly does write numerous songs. Israell (talk) 15:32, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

That's great. Perhaps these quotes belong in the article then. isento (talk) 16:05, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is a reasonable place to put this as its my own opinion but I think its relevant to this discussion. LMK if this is inappropriate. But often people (and editors are people) will overvalue criticism/undervalue contributions of women and people of colour. It may be worthwhile to seriously consider whether your position would change if Beyonce was a white man. Xurizuri (talk) 14:08, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Xurizuri, yeah, you may have a point! We've made a very strong argument that Beyoncé is indeed known to be a songwriter, having co-written 346 of her songs (most of them) and having received prestigious awards and mentions for her songwriting. And she not only writes but produces as well. And just because of criticism/suspicions raised by a few (that then gained some traction online), some editors object to "songwriter" being in the lead sentence... As you noted, such criticism is overvalued and her rightful contribution is undervalued. Not fair, and it is certainly not encyclopedical. Israell (talk) 21:25, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Regarding Beyoncé's picture in the infobox

It only says "Beyoncé in 2019", but I can see the logo for the 2019 remake of The Lion King behind her. Should I expand the caption to "Beyoncé at an event for The Lion King in 2019"? In the Paul Rudd page, the caption "Rudd at the Ant-Man and the Wasp premiere in 2018" was shortened to "Rudd in 2018".

Signed, Marc Raphael Felix (talk) 00:57, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Pinging Bgkc4444, Xurizuri, TruthGuardians, Apoxyomenus, Timeheist, Binksternet, Akhiljaxxn and isento regarding the new RfC just below in regards to the lead, this time. Israell (talk) 17:51, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Should the subject of this article be defined as a songwriter in the lead?

Following the last RfC in regards to the infobox, here is a new one in regards to the lead. The last RfC pertaining to the lead was held four months ago, and following further developments and extensive discussions, here is a new (and hopefully final) one. Israell (talk) 17:46, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

!Votes

• Yes - Citing WP:V, it is, as demonstrated in previous discussions, a very well and documented fact Beyoncé Knowles was credited as a writer for most of the Destiny's Child songs and nearly all of her own solo songs. She has 346 officially registered songwriting credits on ASCAP, she discussed her songwriting process in interviews, and some of her music partners confirmed she does indeed co-write songs. All of these elements suffice to establish her as a songwriter, a regular as opposed to only an occasional or very occasional songwriter. Next to singing, songwriting is her main profession (EDIT: MOS:FIRST). Yes, there have been speculations in regards to her songwriting. Those speculations are discussed in the article but do not trump the aforesaid points. And Beyoncé was recognized in the industry as a songwriter, receiving accolades and awards for it. Israell (talk) 17:46, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
• (the following is copied from the infobox RfC with 1 edit for relevancy bc I don't want to write a whole new thing) Yes because she is credited as a songwriter on many songs, in awards, in articles, etc. People may have criticised her wanting to be credited as a songwriter, or the extent to which she's a songwriter, but dang if she's co-written a bunch of songs to any extent and gotten paid for them, then she's a professional songwriter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xurizuri (talk • contribs) 01:13, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
• No, per extensive debate on the previous RfC. I'm fine with the infobox but not for the lead, see MOS:FIRST. Bluesatellite (talk) 02:49, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

The last RfC is about the infobox. It is explicitly not about anything in the text of the lead. Xurizuri (talk) 02:57, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

No, this last RfC I mean. Bluesatellite (talk) 03:02, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes. I’ve already made my stance clear on this subject. Do I look at her as a song writer? No. But this isn’t about me. It isn’t about my feelings. It’s about the sources and sticking to them, per WP:STICKTOSOURCE. If more than one reliable source cites that she is a songwriter, then she is what she is. TruthGuardians (talk) 23:47, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

• Yes. She collaborates with many others in songwriting but it's songwriting nonetheless. Binksternet (talk) 16:11, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
• No songwriter is not what Beyonce is known for, and per the previous RfC as Bluesatellite cited as above. I am fine with songwriter being kept in the infobox, but not for the lead sentence, HĐ (talk) 08:49, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Once again, Beyoncé is known for singing songs that she writes (co-writes to be exact) for the most part; nearly all her solo songs + most of the Destiny's Child songs. Songwriting is her main profession next to singing, and Beyoncé received prestigious awards and mentions for her songwriting—346 credits at that! Beyoncé is therefore known for songwriting, and that's undeniable and well-documented. The article lists all the required sources, confirmations she co-writes and also co-produces her songs. And it's par for the course on Wikipedia for recording artists who write (write or co-write) their material to be defined as songwriters in the lead of their respective articles. Israell (talk) 21:08, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - As others have alluded to, it all boils down to whether reliable sources consider Beyonce to be a songwriter (per WP:DEFINING, a defining characteristic is one that has been commonly and consistently attributed to the subject in reliable sources), and songwriting has certainly been attributed to Beyonce in reliable sources. This has been the case right from the beginning of her career and until recent months Bgkc4444 (talk) 11:17, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
• Probably not - Industry awards are not independent or appropriate sources for verifying a defining characteristic of a performer. As a defining characteristic, there is too much documented doubt about the extent of her role as a songwriter in Beyoncé#Songwriting credits, particularly from this journalist who recounted conflicting testimonials from her collaborators and acknowledged "the very real claims of theft and plagiarism that have plagued her career for years". But I would rather hear what uninvolved editors have to say about this, rather than us same old voices from past discussions here. isento (talk) 12:54, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Firstly, if one considers a random songwriter - who has never even worked with Beyonce before - told by a Reddit user an unsubstantiated (and false) claim about Beyonce's songwriting who then responds to that "fact" as an appropriate source for Beyonce's songwriting, then certainly the professional organization of songwriters would be considered an appropriate source for Beyonce's songwriting. In my opinion, we should focus on more reliable sources, which as said before, commonly and consistently attribute songwriting to Beyonce.

Secondly, it seems that either that journalist doesn't actually know what a songwriter is, or it is original research to assert that the journalist is saying Beyonce isn't a songwriter. All the article says is that she co-writes songs and that there are two songs where she focused on writing the melody and not the lyrics. Those aren't "conflicting testimonials", and neither of those mean that she isn't a songwriter. Bgkc4444 (talk) 16:10, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Comment - There are sources claiming she is a songwriter (not necessarily claiming songwriting as one of her prominent professions), and there are sources that dismiss songwriting as one of her professions, authenticity of which has received extensive media coverage. Beyoncé IS a songwriter, and that is why "songwriter" is on her infobox; this is NOT subject to debate. The discussion is actually on whether it is a notable profession of hers or not. Therefore, I think we need to stick to the sources available (both supporting & against) instead of disregarding any source as "false" just because one personally thinks it is false. BawinV (talk) 17:56, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Not sure which comment you're referring to, but no, I'm not saying this because of a personal agenda. If the Reddit user, then no, a Reddit user isn't a reliable source. If The Sunday Independent, then firstly it is not a source that is known to be reliable and it is being used to include contentious material about a living person so it shouldn't be considered here or in the article anyway, and secondly just for the sake of responding to your point, it does not say that songwriting is not her profession, and the interpretation of the aforementioned part of the article (which says she has co-written songs and that there are two songs where she focused on writing the melody) to mean that she isn't a songwriter is incorrect. In the same way that articles saying that Taylor Swift can't sing doesn't mean that Taylor Swift shouldn't be called a singer on Wikipedia, because that is what reliable sources call her, so too articles saying that Beyonce co-writes or writes melodies (not even saying she isn't a songwriter, and again, those two points don't make someone any less of a songwriter) doesn't mean that Beyonce shouldn't be called a songwriter on Wikipedia, because that is what reliable sources call her. Bgkc4444 (talk) 18:50, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Yet again, you diverge from the actual subject of the discussion. "articles saying that Beyonce co-writes or writes melodies doesn't mean that Beyonce shouldn't be called a songwriter on Wikipedia, because that is what reliable sources call her". Please read my comment again. The discussion is on the notability of her songwriting profession, not about the authenticity of her songwriting. The discussion is on whether her songwriting is prominent enough for "songwriter" to be included in the first sentence of the article (since it is already there in the infobox). You randomly inserting Swift (which is irrelevant to the topic and thus I'm not gonna address) doesn't not add any constructive points to this talk discussion. I repeat, the discussion is NOT about whether Beyoncé is a songwriter or not (she IS a songwriter); it is on whether she is notable as a songwriter. BawinV (talk) 19:27, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I think we're saying the same thing. Interpreting a non-reliable source which says that Beyonce co-writes or writes melodies as evidence that Beyonce isn't an authentic songwriter does not equate to a determination of whether Beyonce is a notable songwriter or not. And bringing a comparable case not directed at you is not whataboutism. Bgkc4444 (talk) 19:53, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

What would really help is an independent report or coverage on her songwriting, something in-depth about what she does, her process, an analysis, etc. Not some passing flattering mention, like this, what Bgkc4444 cited earlier, but which misleadingly says Beyonce wrote "Through with Love", for instance, when in reality she is one of five writers credited there. She's obviously iconic enough and been around long enough to seem to warrant better investigation or reportage from journalists, which I would love nothing more for it to exist so this issue can be quashed in either direction and we could give readers a better account. But nothing like that is really cited or discussed in the article, or seems to exist online. It's mostly just some accolades, primary-source testimonials of dubious merit, and third-party doubt-raising and speculation. IMO, where there's smoke, there's fire. But more importantly, like I said before, there's not enough to substantiate the "songwriter" role's notability for a leading mention. The lead is a reflection of the body, in proportion to what reliable sources are cited as saying about certain information (MOS:LEADREL). If you open the pandora's box of her songwriting role, you'd have to mention the controversy too. So, all that remains is editorial discretion, which leads me to say no. isento (talk) 12:57, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, as I have stated in the previous discussion, that section of the article needs improvement as it should be filled with material that explains how Beyonce writes songs using reliable sources, which is currently not the case. But I don't think we should be discussing that here because it's a separate topic from whether being songwriter is a noteworthy role of Beyonce's, as BawinV said. As said above, a characteristic should be included in the lead if it "is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having" according to WP:DEFINING, which brings the example that if a source states "Caravaggio, an Italian artist of the Baroque movement", then "Italian", "artist", and "Baroque" can be considered to be defining characteristics of Caravaggio. Similarly, that source shouldn't be discounted, because it says "The formidable singer and songwriter from Houston, Texas", therefore "singer", "songwriter", and "from Houston, Texas" can be considered to be defining characteristics of Beyonce. Bgkc4444 (talk) 13:57, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Maybe the priority then should be working on that section first, rather than this. isento (talk) 14:10, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't think anyone would contest adding "songwriter" to the lead if it's reflective of substantial discussion in the body. I know I wouldn't. isento (talk) 14:11, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Sure, but as BawinV and I said, this is a discussion about whether songwriting is a noteworthy role of Beyonce's or not, not the perception of the authenticity of Beyonce's songwriting. Bgkc4444 (talk) 18:29, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately, they are not mutually exclusive. isento (talk) 01:13, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

I've already repeatedly explained why it is a notable profession of Beyoncé's, and Bgkc4444 has just made a great point. Some do not consider Taylor Swift a real singer—does that mean she should not be defined as a singer in the lead of her article? I also did make that point earlier. There are a number of vocalists some do not consider to be real singers, some even call them non-singers, but they are still referred to as singers in the lead of their articles because they are indeed singers (on their recordings, in music videos and onstage). Singing is a notable profession of theirs whether or not they are recognized as great singers. Same thing here. Beyoncé is a singer that sings songs she wrote the vast majority of. Having co-written 346 songs, having been awarded and commended for her songwriting, songwriting is also a notable profession of hers, and that's all that matters here. Some may not regard her as a songwriter, a true songwriter or whatever the same way some may not regard J-Lo or Selena Gomez as real singers; the fact is, singing is a notable profession of theirs and songwriting is a notable profession of Beyoncé's, more notable than that of actress for that matter since Beyoncé mostly sings, and it's almost always songs that she writes and also produces which shows an even bigger involvement in the crafting of her songs. There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that even a fifth of Beyoncé's songwriting credits are stolen or bought. Writing songs is definitely a noteworthy role of Beyoncé's. Israell (talk) 02:38, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

"but which misleadingly says Beyonce wrote "Through with Love", for instance, when in reality she is one of five writers credited there" As I've already stated, it is common for people (incl. recording artists themselves) to say "wrote" instead of "co-wrote" for short. There is nothing misleading there. Besides, having a sole songwriting credit is NOT a criterion to be defined as a songwriter in the lead. As TruthGuardians put it, this is about the facts (is Beyoncé a songwriter or not, is it noteworthy enough), not one's personal opinions or feelings. And having so many songwriting credits, Beyoncé is definitely a prolific songwriter. Like numerous other recording artists on Wikipedia, it is suitable and appropriate for the term "songwriter" to be in the lead sentence of her article. It totally goes against Wikipedia standards to deny her of that just because a very small number have voiced suspicions on her songwriting, and it is all allegations. Many recording artists incl. Pharrell Williams, Robin Thicke, Katy Perry, Madonna, Patrick Leonard, Lizzo, Carrie Underwood, Miley Cyrus and so on were at some point accused of stealing music from others, there were lawsuits, controversy, but they are all still defined as songwriters. Israell (talk) 03:09, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

"Is Beyoncé a plagiarist?" (Salon, 2013): "She, more and more as the group's run went on, was involved in writing, but a more typical Destiny's Child song was their single 'Lose My Breath,' with seven credited writers ... And songwriting credits are often arbitrary -- Beyoncé was disqualified before three much less notable writers from an Academy Award nomination for the Dreamgirls song 'Listen,' which she co-wrote ... Admittedly, the singer is an easy target for plagiarism allegations due to her fame. But her fame also allows her to rephrase these allegations as curation, and to talk louder about the singular songwriting power of her mind even as it seems she's fairly well-versed in the typical 'write a word, take a third' strategy. The singer received a writing credit on her song 'Smash Into You,' a repurposed cover of a lesser-known singer's 'Smack Into You,' with little changed but two letters. For changing those two letters, Beyoncé got a larger share of the profits from the song... isento (talk) 10:42, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

We're running in circles, and as explained, this discussion is NOT about the authenticity of her songwriting but about whether or not it is noteworthy. Beyoncé has 346 songwriting credits and even more song production credits; she's therefore quite involved in the crafting of her songs and songwriting is definitely a notable profession of hers, the most notable next to singer. Beyoncé was commended and awarded for her songwriting, all the receipts are there. 346 credits! Can you prove that even a fifth of those credits were stolen? No! For argument's sake, let's suppose half those credits were stolen and there was irrefutable proof of that... 173 of those would still be legit. That would make her quite an unethical songwriter, but she'd still be a notable songwriter nonetheless. But then again, there is no proof of that at all! Beyoncé HAS definitely written songs. 'Partition' has her lyrics and she confirmed it, so do those personal songs on 'Lemonade' in which she described things about her personal life, her marriage. She wrote songs about her daughter and many other things. And any change in music may warrant a songwriting, not just the lyrics! Israell (talk) 13:47, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Actually, the discussion of this RfC is Should the subject of this article be defined as a songwriter in the lead? We are not allowed to dictate how each editor approaches this question and forms their opinion. isento (talk) 15:41, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

To quote BawinV: "The discussion is on the notability of her songwriting profession, not about the authenticity of her songwriting." Other editors and I have made a compelling point her prolific songwriting (backed with her extensive record production history which shows even more involvement in the conception of her songs) is noteworthy enough. Beyoncé's songwriting and song production credits also include all songs featured on 'Everything Is Love', an album by The Carters (a duo formed by Beyoncé and Jay-Z). Beyoncé also co-wrote four songs for her sister Solange's début ('Just Like You', 'Thinkin' About You', 'Solo Star' and 'Naïve'); are those credits stolen or bought too? Beyoncé also co-wrote some collaborations including 'Family Feud', a duet with Jay-Z (that appeared on Jay-Z's '4:44' album) and 'Walk on Water' (an Eminem song she's featured on). Israell (talk) 18:09, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Read my comment in the previous RfC's discussion: "Again, I am merely one voter. The better judgements usually prevail in these discussions. So if it is yours, feel confident other voters will just say yes. Also, fyi, a while back before the last RfC, I believe I had added such a footnote as a compromise to 'songwriter' remaining in the lead ..." isento (talk) 12:05, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

• Yes - Enough reliable source refer to Beyonce as a songwriter to justify its inclusion in the lead sentence. CBS, MTV , Billboard Britannica . She also won awards for songwriting castorbailey (talk) 22:09, 2 January 2021 (UTC)