Jump to content

Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 84

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Help talk:Citation Style 1

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by ClueBot III (talk | contribs) at 20:23, 6 July 2022 (Archiving 1 discussion from Help talk:Citation Style 1. (BOT)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archive 80←Archive 82Archive 83Archive 84Archive 85Archive 86→Archive 90

Citation span tags

Ive noticed that when a citation error is produced (E.g. "example". {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |url= (help)), the resulting html has the error split across 2 or more <span>s, as seen below (Ive split the 2 spans wih a newline). 

<span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_web" title="Template:Cite web">cite web</a>}}</code>: </span>
<span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Missing or empty <code class="cs1-code">|url=</code> (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#cite_web_url" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span>

However, when a maintenance notice is produced (E.g. "example". 1970.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link)), the resulting html is always across 1 entire <span>, as seen below 

<span class="cs1-maint citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_web" title="Template:Cite web">cite web</a>}}</code>:  CS1 maint: date and year (<a href="/wiki/Category:CS1_maint:_date_and_year" title="Category:CS1 maint: date and year">link</a>)</span>

Ive also noticed the function for adding errors in the module /Utilities is significantly more advanced than for adding maintenance messages. Is there at all any reason for this? Id assume it would be easier for both to be across 1 entire span, as the same class is used throughout, but there might be some underlying reason im not aware of. Aidan9382 (talk) 06:18, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Maintenance messages are always default hidden. Most error messages are visible but some are default hidden. Error messages are always emitted, hidden or not. For example, {{cite journal}} requires |journal= so when that parameter is empty of omitted, cs1|2 emits an appropriate error message. But, due to en.wiki politics, that error message is hidden:
{{cite journal |title=Title |date=November}}
"Title". November. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite journal requires |journal= (help) 
<span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment"><code class="cs1-code">{{<a href="/wiki/Template:Cite_journal" title="Template:Cite journal">cite journal</a>}}</code>: </span><span class="cs1-hidden-error citation-comment">Cite journal requires <code class="cs1-code">&#124;journal=</code> (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#missing_periodical" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span>; <span class="cs1-visible-error citation-comment">Check date values in: <code class="cs1-code">&#124;date=</code> (<a href="/wiki/Help:CS1_errors#bad_date" title="Help:CS1 errors">help</a>)</span>
User css can override the cs1-hidden-error class.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:21, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Can you point to the discussion where this was decided? I don't remember it. Omitting the source from a citation is not trivial. 50.75.226.250 (talk) 14:38, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
I meant the decision to hide work-missing errors. 50.75.226.250 (talk) 14:41, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
This update:
Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 60 § update to the cs1|2 module suite after 2 September 2019
spawned this drama:
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive313 § Is there a semi-automated tool that could fix these annoying "Cite Web" errors?
—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:53, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
The complaint there was about {{cite web}} requiring |website= and {{cite news}} requiring |newspaper=, both of which were subsequently reverted. No-one objected to {{cite journal}} requiring |journal=. Kanguole 16:09, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
That and the deprecated |dead-url= error messages were the biggest parts of the complaints, sure. But there was a vocal crowd advocating a complete reversion of the 3 September 2020 update. To forstal that, I disabled missing-news and missing-website tests and hid deprecated and missing-periodical (journal, magazine) error messaging. We did not have to revert the whole damn thing but as a result, missing periodical error messages are still hidden.
And this is all that I am going to say on this sub-topic.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:47, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for digging up some of these discussions, I forgot I had actually participated. Sordid re-reading... On a personal note, I do not think that Wikipedia will ever produce proper citation system(s) for its readers. Nobody is asking them, or even bothers to educate them to the fact that they must verify everything they read in article space. The problem is not Wikipedia per se. In general imo, article/story writers rarely make good article/story editors, and neither make good designers of either the presentation or its technical aspects. A different approach may be needed here. 65.88.88.57 (talk) 17:59, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: This conversation above has actually made me notice what could be a bug. Due to the way ive got my css setup, not only are all errors shown, but i have seperate background highlighting for each, and I noticed the ; in the journal example was unhighlighted, and therefore not inside any span tags. I checked with default css (AKA not being able to see the hidden error), and yep, to other people theres just a magically appearing semicolon in the citation error output. Aidan9382 (talk) 16:33, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, that semicolon is there. It's there to separate items in a list of error messages. Could be removed or some code could be written to move the semicolon into the spans, I suppose, but the better solution, from the editor point of view, is to fix the cause of the error messages – then no stray semicolons...
—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:13, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Add S2CID to TemplateData

I'm using ProveIt and I recently started to add S2CID to my references, but it is not showing in ProveIt by default because it is not in the TemplateData, and it would be nice to have it there. Could someone do this? Thanks! − Arthurfragoso (talk) 15:35, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Request to remove Help talk from Category:CS1 maint: unrecognized language

Resolved

Could someone please remove the Help talk space from Category:CS1 maint: unrecognized language, so Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 79 isn't part of the category? Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 03:28, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

cs1|2 does not categorize the Help talk namespace (see lines 10–12 in Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration). Likely the issue is a bare category link somewhere in one or more of the discussions in the archived page. Find that link and fix it.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:33, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 Fixed with this edit. An editor tried to link to a category but forgot a colon. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:40, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

CS1 maint: others in cite AV media (notes)

moved from Category talk:CS1 maint: others in cite AV media (notes); now a redirect —Trappist the monk (talk) 12:32, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

This maintenance note seems contrary to the examples listed in Template:Cite AV media notes. This maintenance note states "|others= is provided to record other (secondary) contributors to the cited source.", but per <<Template:Cite AV media notes#General]], [[Cite AV media notes |title=Album Title |first=First |last=Last |others=<<Artist>> |date=2022 |url=h t t p ://www.wikipedia.org |page=1|type=Type |publisher=Publisher |id=Publisher ID |location=Location>>, others is to be used to list Artist. So when citing CD liners, the album title gets listed under title, but there is no other method for listing artist except for others, which complies with AV media notes guidelines. This CS1 maintenance seems to be the one in error. Mburrell (talk) 04:16, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

The obvious solution is to add the author of the notes, or "Anon." if not stated. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:06, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
I think the obvious solution is to add an additional field to AV Media (notes) for artist. Mburrell (talk) 16:31, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
It should also be obvious to anyone who tries to verify a {{cite av media notes}} citation that it is much harder to find the source by the author of the notes than it is by the related artist. AV sources are rarely classified by notes authors.
I don't remember why there is a separate template for notes. They are as tightly integrated with the AV work as a foreword to a book. This template can easily be replaced with |contribution=Media notes or |contribution="Media notes title" and |contributor=Authorname, added to template {{cite av media}}. 24.105.140.106 (talk) 18:26, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
This maintenance category used to be part of Category:CS1 maint: others but was split out because we don't know the best way to deal with them. See the instituting discussion as well as a more recent discussion as well as this older discussion and this older discussion. Izno (talk) 18:33, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

False positive on bibcode:2019ISPAr42W19..207

This says there's an error in the bibcode

There isn't, it's a valid one. One of the tests needs to be adjusted. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 03:55, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Same for {{bibcode}} = Bibcode:2019ISPAr42W19..207Check bibcode: value (help) Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 03:56, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
I see whats gone wrong here. According to the official rules here, the last character should be The first letter of the last name of the first author, but somehow its a 7. The regex that confirms if this is valid was only expecting for a letter or dot for this reason. Im not sure if this is a misissuing or what, but for now, ill simply change the regex a bit. If someone who works on citations a lot could follow up on this, that'd be nice. Aidan9382 (talk) 04:36, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
@Headbomb: I've fixed it as much as i can, but I can only fix the direct {{bibcode}} one, and not the citation one. I guess just use that for now until someone else comes along and gives hopefully more of an insight. Aidan9382 (talk) 04:40, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Hhmmm... If the test that's failed is the final character needing to be a letter... we might be better off having an exception for the article than a change to the rule. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 04:51, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

The double (( )) doesn't seem to do anything though.

Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 04:53, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

The (( )) markup (Accept as written markup) has to be defined explicitely for values as far as im concerned, and its not just available to supress all errors. Ill see if i can add it to check_bibcode, but actual citations will need more input. Also yeah, maybe adding an exception was a better idea, my mistake! Aidan9382 (talk) 04:57, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
@Headbomb: Ok im not gonna implement that. Looking at the solo implementation of elements that use the AAW markup (like ISBN) shows that its actually a feature of Citations/CS1's implementation only. I think you'll just have to let the error sit there until a potential fix comes along. Im not totally opposed to implementing an AAW addition for the solo if really needed, im just worried about going against common practice on something as major as citations. Aidan9382 (talk) 05:02, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Have you notified the bibcode people about this? If the rule has changed, they should document the rule change; if the rule has not change and the bibcode is malformed they should assign a proper bibcode to that source (they can keep the malformed bibcode as a redirect).
—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:38, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Ill go ahead and notify them about it. Ill post any eventful updates (E.g. if its changed) here. Aidan9382 (talk) 13:44, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

@Headbomb: Got a response back, it was a misissuing. It's been fixed, but its not gonna update on the database until friday. The new bibcode will end up being 2019ISPAr4219..207F. I'm telling you now since I'll end up forgetting if i don't. Aidan9382 (talk) 19:02, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

CS1 errors: dates

Hello, wondered if anyone knows what has happened to category:CS1 errors: dates which has gone up by over 100 entries. New ones in the category do not show an entry in the hidden categories on the page. It could be that some template was changed and the jobqueue is still processing them. Keith D (talk) 17:11, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

could you link some of the new ones? Aidan9382 (talk) 17:31, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
Since they all seem to be music-related, I'm guessing that this template change fixed a temporary problem that was causing a bunch of date errors, and now the job queue is removing the affected articles from the category. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:51, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, it looks like it is slowly returning to the previous level. Keith D (talk) 20:11, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
The category seems to be stable at 5,820 pages right now. I am very impressed by the steady progress that editors have made in reducing the number of pages in this category. I know that beyond a certain point of easy fixes, correcting each error requires actual manual work to determine and implement the right change. Nice work. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:27, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

URL access restriction for non-accessible sources

The instructions don't seem to say what to put for |url-access= for something that is simply not accessible to the public at all – e.g., a document that may exist but is internal to an institution. For example, Utah Tech University has a citation to this, something that appears to only be accessible to employees and/or students of the university. The meaning of the "limited" value seems to be that it is still possible, within some limits, "to freely access this source". But "subscription" is not accurate either, since it is not possible to obtain "a paid subscription with the provider". The limit is more formidable than a "paywall". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:23, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

@BarrelProof - Per Template:Cite_web#Access_indicators_for_url-holding_parameters, I suggest |url-access=registration. Happy editing! GoingBatty (talk) 04:16, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
I disagree. The url takes the reader to a login page that wants a 'Digital ID@utahtech.edu' identifier. That implies that those who have the requisite IDs are faculty, staff, or students at Utah Tech University. When rendered, |url-access=registration tells cs1|2 templates to emit a tool tip that says: 'Free registration required'. There is no indication at the sign-in page how to get a 'free registration'.
I have fixed the citation template. I also deleted the archive-url because an archived copy of a sign-in page is more-or-less pointless
—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:38, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Agree with Trappist, but personally would take it further, because as noted, there is no publicly available subscription. Is that school's "Faculty Termination Policy" non-public? If so, citing it in Wikipedia may not be acceptable, and technically may violate CS1 guideline that sources be published (i.e. available to the general public). I would try to find other, public sources to support the wikitext. The restriction should include archives of non-public sources when they actually provide the content. Bad form. 68.173.78.83 (talk) 16:56, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Linking to commercial publishers: Exception?

The page currently reads: "Do not link to: [...] Commercial sites such as Amazon, unless no alternative exists."

Would it be alright to add an exception clause for open access books, often which are available on commercial sites?

See e.g. [here https://global.oup.com/academic/open-access/titles/?cc=jp&lang=en&].

Even if this is stated or implied elswhere on the page (I didn't see it if it is, sorry), it'd be good to add a short clarification clause where the page talks about linking to commerical sites. Cameron.coombe (talk) 00:01, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

The reasoning behind the commercial link warning is that Wikipedia should not be used as a marketing or sales tool. However open access sources are free, and I would think it obvious they would be allowed irrespective of the platform. I would support such clarification, if one is needed. I don't think there is a problem with citations linking to the site in your example.
As an aside, I sometimes archive live webpages on sales sites such as online stores, and then cite the archive only, so a sale cannot be done from the link. Make sure that the archive is a true screenshot with all links/scripts disabled. 68.132.154.35 (talk) 16:32, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help_talk:Citation_Style_1/Archive_84&oldid=1096816051"