Talk:China

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Dy1001 (article contribs).

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 September 2020 and 18 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Majd.Salman (article contribs).

Intentionally misleading information in demographics section

The demographics section of the China Wikipedia page includes the statement “China's rapid growth has pulled hundreds of millions—800 million, to be more precise—of its people out of poverty since 1978. By 2013, less than 2% of the Chinese population lived below the international poverty line of US$1.9 per day, down from 88% in 1981. China's own standards for poverty are higher and still the country is on its way to eradicate national poverty completely by 2019.” This statement cites misleading reports from the Chinese government itself and directly lies about China having higher standards for poverty, when the poverty line set by the Chinese government is actually much lower than the line set elsewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1012:b103:ed5e:e521:312e:9f4f:bacf (talk) 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Genocide Claims

I think there's enough sources for this that we should add several sentences about it. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] Bogazicili (talk) 20:41, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. It is pretty crazy this article has zero text mentions of Uighurs, internment camps or mass sterilization. If this is not added soon I will look into it. Colinmcdermott (talk) 09:59, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Added some info Bogazicili (talk) 21:11, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Please stop the defamation of China and be neutral with a Wikipedia page. Western media news article is not a sufficient source of information for evidence, which you have used there. Quote a real peer-reviewed article and real figures before you edit. ––GrignardReagent007 (talk) 19:49, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Maybe you could familiarise yourself with the contents of this article before you attempt to selectively raise the required standard of evidence. TucanHolmes (talk) 17:36, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

There are now more and more voices suggesting that the "Uyghurs genocide" was nothing but the US government's fake propaganda strategy during Trump's term, mainly advocated by Pompeo. For example, this Youtuber (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oKvulTU8oU) had visited Xinjiang in 2020 and debunked many rumors, and another (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i915eArrego) had explained all the suspicious points of the US's Uyghurs genocide claim in details. I suggest maybe we can add a line about this.WakemanCK (talk) 09:32, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Please do not forget to keep WP:WEIGHT in mind when mentioning such viewpoints. Some guy on YouTube is NOT a reliable source. If you have reliable sources to back up your claims, please provide examples of those instead. TucanHolmes (talk) 17:21, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

"Chinese Communist Party" nonsense

Stop entering US propaganda by the name of "Chinese Communist Party." The official name is "Communist Party of China." There is no such thing as "Chinese Communist Party." 202.9.46.161 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:28, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

No, the official name is 中国共产党. Both "Chinese Communist Party" and "Communist Party of China" are translations of that. And there is no difference in meaning between the two, it is purely stylistic. Just as "satin sheets" and "sheets of satin" mean the same thing, so do CCP and CPC. --Khajidha (talk) 16:35, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

You are in no position to alter a big article "China" since you are biased in your edits. Maybe you are a US agent with purposeful edits. 202.9.46.101 (talk) 15:24, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

The name CPP and CPC states different political views. CCP is what anti-Chinese propaganda uses but the official translation from 中国共产党 itself is CPC - "Communist Party of China". ––GrignardReagent007 (talk) 19:51, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Government form

The ideology of modern day China is disputed so maybe it should change into Unitary One-Party Socialist Republic, like once it used to be Maoist but then changed in Dengism but definetly not Marxist-Leninist.

Kommune12 (talk) 05:40, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

In my view the current ideology of China should be Unitary One-Party Socialism with Chinese characteristics Republic. —Byte (talk) 09:21, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

ahh, @Kommune12, very good statement, but sadly i disagree on your statement, China was never been a maoists or all of this unclearity. Maoism is not existed in Party Ideological line, the Only correct and also legitimate ideological line of Chairman mao is Mao zedong thought. Also Degism or "Deng Xiaping theory" is driven from Socialist economics, of Marxism Leninism. Even Chairman mao Never decleared any Things called "Maoism" or things like this. Chairman mao Always said loud and clear that he was a Marxist-Leninist, and only promote Marxism-Leninism, MZT, not Marxism-Leninism-Maoism. Also It is clear that China was Unitary Marxist-Leninist One party Socialist republic with the 中共 as the ruling party. And Chinese communism, Marxism-Leninism-Mao zedong thought, Deng Xiaoping theory, Comrade Jiang Zemin's three represents. And Socialism with Chinese Characteristic in the new era As the ideological line. There are more things to discuss in this matter. 毛习圝 File:Terraria Wyvern flat.png 08:49, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 November 2020

{{subst:trim|1= China is a country in asia with natural beauty and magnificnt senery.China is a first world country with mega industries that manufacture clothing, beauty products,automobiles,hair products,electronics,phones,laptops,and its atourist destination.China is a tourist destination that is suitable for bussiness,relaxation and shopping.In Asia china is vital because of its trade connections.China trades with Africa.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 14:31, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Too relied on Politically narrated agenda, sadly this could led to Article Neutrality loss

This article was full of badly narratized informations that was coming from highly sinophobic media outlet such as BBC aswell as CNN. And couple others of websites that was constantly attacking China and Do a blatant accusation. The narration in each Section of the Article was constantly seen as written in reefer to be a "Politically written in Favour of Western Cultural values, in order to Uphold Neutrality in article. Editors must know how to diffrentiate Politically Narrated articles and also Normal-Narrated Informative articles. In this article. Nutrality was somewhat as if A "Teeter board". Many editors are too focused on political agenda rather than Focusing on developing the Informative educational puropsed informations. Encyclopedia is a Educational informative media. Not some kind of platform to do a political activism to promote an idea of whatever the country is bad or not. As a chinese writter. I never Gotten myself into Writting a bad faith. Even on western Articles. Even though if i do write bad faith. In the end i myself is the one who will delete it before other editor can revert it. All i write is based on source. Not the biased One. Not the one that promote political agenda. Not the one who promote blatant accusation. But i will find the one that promote fact in accord of educational purposes. In accord of Neutrality. Neutrality is not just about writting a good information and also a contra on one section. But also how to make the contra section as good sounded and not sounded as a "Politicaly Narrated Agenda" of promoting whatever "a country is bad or not". As i said earlier. I have seen many editors edits in accord of their political Agenda, i have silent about this for long time. Before i move to english wikipedia. I have edited chinese section of wikipedia for almost 3 years then. I have met so many good Senior expereinced editors there giving me good advice on how to make a neutral articles and how to keep up a good faith editing. And sadly to say i did not see many of them here. Dwww File:Terraria Wyvern flat.png 03:44, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Not sure where to begin with the above. But it would be best for you to propose any changes you would like to see here on this talk page. Your above statement is very generic in nature and does not advance the improvement of the article at this time. Perhaps best to review Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources then pls review Wikipedia:Advocacy.--Moxy 🍁 01:36, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

My apologize, but even an Experienced editor like you still say "you're Not sure where to begin with the above". Well, for the benefits of readers. ofcourse it is better to start monitoring the "not neutral" sections that i talk about earlier" mostly i see something like "china is this", china is that. I mean it is a good part of neutrality to put contra in every pro part. All nation have it's own pros and contras in all sectors. Aswell as all ideology and all religious doctrines. All have contras and pros. But i see on this article mostly the contras were written aggressively. Or it is maybe from only my own prespective some people will say. But apologize to say this. Many readers reported to me that they feel slight discomfort when reading this China article. Well mostly from mainland china. But is it a judgemental ?, wikipedia is fair platform, we cannot chose who is the audience and readers yes ?, we must be uphold justice and not care from where people read it or what nationality they are. Aslong it is a reader and a people who use wikipedia as a crucial thing in their educational life. we must do everything we can to deliver them clean infromation of what the thing really is, and not from any political prespective but rather focusing it from the view of educational prespective. Also this article Not because it is not complete or not well cited. Not these. In fact this China article is very very Incrediblly well cited and sourced. With many Pros and contras in it. In the sense that well. It is already fullfiled "Neutrality" but sadly there is still these parts where the contras aren't written neutrally. The contras are written as if a condmening towards a nation. If possible i hope some experienced editor like yourself @Moxy can look up these parts i mentioned. I cannot do anything about it. That is why i please the editor with more authority to do it. Because if i edit it myself and even if i put a "good language" in a sense of making it sounded like not some sort of "condemning". In the end my edit will be reverted by someone-else. Possibly editors that are advocates of western cultural values that was focusing in politicizing an Article for Their own agenda or perhaps group agenda. On the otherhands, i see the way people edit the page of US positively. And i just want people do same thing to this China article. That is editing it positively like the way people edit the page of US. Also you said earlier that "my above statement is very generic in nature and does not advance the improvement of the article at this time". I disagree, i think by using a "less condemning" language in the contra section. This will helply improve the article. Thank You.  Half Dwww File:Terraria Wyvern flat.png 03:44, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with User:Moxy. If you think that there is bias in the article, please give concrete examples and your own suggestions on how it should be improved. Otherwise you just making claims out of thin air, in my opinion. intforce (talk) 12:52, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

well @Moxy and @Intforce i agreed on both of you. Looks like i am reading it negatively all these times. I think as now. There is no problem with this article because the Neutrality of the Article is well preserved at this point, and does not goes against WP:NPOV at any way. And i think it is not an issue for this page. Because it is already good enough. Okay, think we have consensus here. That my claim above of the "bias" was all just because of my wrong way of reading it. And perhaps all those readers who claim of "biased" section was also "reading it wrong" and comprehense it negatively. And as always i am sincerely apologize for this inconvinience. And perhaps i can close our fine discussion and agreed on this once ? Dwww File:Terraria Wyvern flat.png 03:44, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Map near start of article

I find it a bit odd that one of the first pictures in the article is a Western map of China in 1570. I feel there's a few problems here.

Firstly, the placement is odd. This picture is in the history section, sure, but it is before the image of the 10,000-year-old pottery, and doesn't seem to correspond to the section to the left.

Secondly, why use a Western map of China? There are a number of Chinese maps that could be used instead during this time period. This is an article about China, after all, and in the interest of countering systemic bias and showing Chinese culture to the reader, I feel it would be more than acceptable to pick a Chinese example instead. Maybe this map from the commons could be used? LittleCuteSuit (talk) 03:10, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't really think that this can be seen as systemic bias, since the section in question is about the Western name of China, and hence, only Western material can be used to support the etymology. I agree that in the actual History section, i.e. History of China, Chinese maps should be preferred. intforce (talk) 15:09, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Ohh. I see now. Being that I'm viewing the page on a 1920x1080 monitor, the picture of the map on my end doesn't appear in the etymology section, but rather in the history section. In light of this, your explanation makes sense. LittleCuteSuit (talk) 20:39, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I recommend using the new Vector skin (disable Legacy Vector) which limits the article's width – it takes getting used to, but it's easier to read :) intforce (talk) 20:53, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I have shifted the map left to help with this accessibility issue. An alternative would be shrinking the quite large infobox. CMD (talk) 04:31, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Given how the name of this page would be unrecognizable to people in 9,800 or 9,900 of those years it kind of makes sense... The concept of “China” is a foreign one which was imported by early nationalists. The minds our conception of China existed in when that map was made in 1570 were exclusively “western” or “western” adjacent. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:27, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Unnecessary Info in Lead

"China has lifted more than 850 million people out of poverty,[24][25] the most of any country in world history,[26] and has the highest number of people in the top 10% of the world's wealthiest individuals.[p][27]" this entire sentence should be removed from the lead (I removed it, but since it was reinstated, I will seek consensus first and not revert, as I am banned from reverting without consensus). China has a higher population than any nation in the world, so clearly it "lifted more people our of poverty... the most of any country in world history." This is completely misleading, considering many nations have had much higher poverty percentages and lowed them, while China still continues to have much higher poverty rate than most developed nations, 2-3 times as high. Also, the mention of "in world history" should be irrelevant as well, as the US article doesn't mention it as the "wealthiest country in world history", it doesn't mention China's economy or population as the "largest in world history," so it shouldn't mention that it's lifted "more out of poverty than any country in world history." And the fact that it has the "highest number of people in the top 10% of the world's wealthiest individuals is never mentioned in other countries' article (the US only mentions the percentage of world wealth) and is too specific, because China does not have the most billionaires or millionaires (the US has 4x as many) [6]. That is why I believe this entire sentence should be removed, since it is an unnecessary factoid not meant for the lead. Bill Williams (talk) 04:00, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Remove. This reads much like cherry picking stats that put China in a favorable light. It reminds me of this tweet (no, that's no satire) intforce (talk) 11:30, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

I suggest removing the line "The PRC is one of the world's only socialist states explicitly aiming to build communism. " in the Politics section

The line itself is already confusing in meaning. More importantly, it is generally agreed that China is not a communist country now. "Aiming to build communism" has not been mentioned by the CCP for many years. CCP's aim now is to build a socialist country with Chinese characteristics. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_Chinese_characteristics) Of course, I know CCP stands for Chinese Communist Party but why they do not change their name is another story. WakemanCK (talk) 09:20, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

@WakemanCK: The Communist Party of China's constitution states that the party is still committed to Marxism–Leninism, Mao Zedong Thought, and building communism. The party hopes to achieve communism by transitioning from its current point at an early stage of socialism. Whether or not this is rubbish is up for debate, and both sides are mentioned in the article. However, in my opinion the sentence should be removed because it is not sourced and only serves to praise China from an ML-perspective. CentreLeftRight ✉ 09:46, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Uyghur genocide has an RFC

Uyghur genocide has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Mikehawk10 (talk) 23:23, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 February 2021

add "4.4.3 Diplomatic disputes" with the history and culture controversies with Korea. ex)hanbok and Hanfu, kimchi and pao cai 180.66.76.15 (talk) 08:25, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 08:47, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

China’s size

China is 4th largest by total area after Russia, Canada and USA. It’s not the third but fourth Nlivataye (talk) 20:08, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Size  ? Say in Moscow. Enough for 2 000 000 dead (worldwide). China government disagrees heavily. Put on Negotiatien. Gaz purchase.Oldi Marechal (talk) 15:34, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

We should split this article into "China" and "PRC"

In 78 language there are two independent article for "China" and "People's Republic of China" with rather different content. We should consider splitting this article. --John Smith Ri (talk) 04:23, 11 February 2021 (UTC) BTW, administrators, add the template for I am limited by semi-protection, please. --John Smith Ri (talk) 04:27, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

 Done Jack Frost (talk) 10:40, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

The page is at China as a result of a previous move. It was determined after a long discussion that "China" and "People's Republic of China" were two names for the same country, for which there should be one article. We should not be guided by other wikis, especially where naming is concerned as it often varies between countries and languages.2A00:23C8:4588:B01:E9A2:72D8:604D:9D7B (talk) 10:51, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support.Such two words do not really vary between countries and languages.--John Smith Ri (talk) 08:43, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

In case it's not clear, I oppose. Hard to give a reason though as there is no actual proposal as to the split. What would the two articles on the country "China" and the country "People's Republic of China" contain? Without any such proposal there is nothing really to !vote on and this should probably be closed as moot.2A00:23C8:4588:B01:E9A2:72D8:604D:9D7B (talk) 18:00, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support. -- Cisdine (talk) 13:31, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose as per previous 4 talks Two Chinas.--Moxy 🍁 16:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

@Moxy:I have seen that the English Wikipedia uses "Two Chinas" when referring to both the ROC and the PRC. From my understanding, "Two Chinas", like "One China", is a political terminology that may be inappropriate, because this is a controversial policy between the ROC and the PRC and the other countries. Like there are different pages of Korea, South Korea and North Korea, I think that there should also be a page of "China" for the geographic and political situation and two other pages of "ROC" and "PRC" (or other names that are more appropriate) for each government. -- Cisdine (talk) 21:34, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

The difference is that NK and SK each control roughly equal portions of the historical Korea. Taiwan controls a relatively small island that was only intermittently part of China for relatively brief periods. "China" the historical entity and "China" the modern political entity (PRC) are much more congruent.--Khajidha (talk) 18:22, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose: Unnecessary fork. There is already an article, History of the People's Republic of China, a split is completely unneeded. This article structure currently fits very well as a summary style article. China >> History of the People's Republic of China >> History of the People's Republic of China (1949–1976) > Great Leap Forward. Fragmenting content when it is not needed only creates opportunities for POV forks, dup content forks, contradictions between articles, etc. so this split should only be done if a very compelling reason to split exists.  // Timothy :: talk  19:57, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose I do agree that "China" is a little awkward, maybe even ridiculous, since it seems to imply that the PRC started 2.25 million years ago, which is a matter for another discussion. But I oppose splitting this article because in addition to the articles mentioned above, we already have History of China, which covers the whole shebang. Probably we should do a better job of coordinating. ch (talk) 22:55, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

How does this article imply that any more than the United Kingdom article implies that that state dates back ~30,000 years? --Khajidha (talk) 18:15, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Read this previous point. In English, "China" overwhelmingly refers to the People's Republic of China. 23:37, 11 February 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by LittleCuteSuit (talk • contribs)

• Oppose In English, the word "China" has come to unequivocally refer to the modern People's Republic of China. By this logic, the India page should be split into "India" and "Republic of India" which seems absurd to me. We already have History of China and for anyone interested in "the other China" (i.e: Taiwan) they can read Republic of China. Akshaysmit (talk) 20:24, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose "China" overwhelmingly refers to the People's Republic of China. The People's Republic of China is a longform name, China is the mostly universal common name for the PRC. Do an online search of "flag of China", it shows the flag of the People's Republic of China. If we split China and PRC, then we have to split South Korea and the Republic of Korea (ROC claims PRC as its territory; the DPRK claims the ROK as its territory). Yeungkahchun (talk) 21:58, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Splitting the article would be unhelpful and just create confusion. If we were to do this, there are at least 100 other similar articles that would need to be changed. LeBron4 (talk) 03:18, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose as no coherent reason has been given for the proposal. I don't see why we would have separate articles for the WP:COMMONNAME and official name of the country. I note that we don't seem to do that for other countries – Russian Federation redirects to Russia; Federal Republic of Germany redirects to Germany. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:37, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per all the reasons given in all the previous discussions. And what other languages do is irrelevant to what the English language Wikipedia does. --Khajidha (talk) 18:17, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
• Support There is a significant difference between the idea of governments of the idea of countries. Governments are a political institution while countries are far wider in meaning than governments. They are fundamentally two different terms, a fact that people tend to forget. In the perfect situation, we should indeed make a difference between all Wikipedia pages of governments and countries. However, changing all these articles may be too gigantic, so we should only focus on points where the conflict between the word "government" and the word "country" happens most drastically. Due to the complex political situation of the ROC, this difference is exerted maximumly in the situation of China, which actually worth this modification. Since we often see English as the standard language in an international sense, it should also reflect the will of people who use English less frequently. Therefore, the fact that Chinese Wikipedia and Wikipedia in many other languages use separate pages for China and PRC should be reflected in English Wikipedia as well.--The193thdoctor (talk) 12:14, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

"the fact that Chinese Wikipedia and Wikipedia in many other languages use separate pages for China and PRC should be reflected in English Wikipedia as well" This makes absolutely no sense and would deprive the native English speaking community of control over its own language. No one would countenance the idea that English speakers should be able to tell Chinese, Quechua, or Xhosa speakers how to speak those languages. --Khajidha (talk) 13:21, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose WP:COMMONNAME In that case, Russia should also be renamed "Russian Federation". Danloud (talk) 22:17, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Bar chart under the 'China in the global economy' sub-heading is spoiling the alignment of the text

Something needs to be done about the bar chart under the 'China in the global economy' sub-heading as it is spoiling the alignment of the text, making the article look unprofessional in my opinion. Xboxsponge15 (talk) 17:24, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 March 2021

The sentence "At least one million members of China's Muslim Uyghur minority have been detained in mass detention camps..." should read: "*According to The Guardian*, at least one million members of China's Muslim Uyghur minority have been detained in mass detention camps..." 77.58.145.196 (talk) 19:22, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: The citation is already referenced to the Guardian. RudolfRed (talk) 02:43, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

The very next sentence also says "According to the U.S. Department of State..." although there is also a reference. It is by no means a proven fact that "At least one million members of China's Muslim Uyghur minority have been detained in mass detention camps", since it is disputed be the Chinese government. For a sentence to be in Wikipedia without a preamble is unencyclopedic.

 Not done: This is the consensus of reliable sources, regardless of whatever the Chinese government says. Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 09:01, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

"Economic statistics from official Chinese government sources are unreliable..."

Regarding this edit that I reverted, the claim that "Economic statistics from official Chinese government sources are unreliable, and may exaggerate Gross Domestic Product by 65% or more" needs better verification before it is added again. As I wrote in the edit summary, only one source is cited, authored by senior heads of the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis. From the source, the basis of the 65 percent estimate is based on GDP estimates from "night-lights data". The original researchers cited in the piece estimated China's GDP based on satellite imagery of lights in China. The piece says the original researches argued and proved there was a correlation between GDP and light-use, but it doesn't go into detail because that's what the original researchers' work is for. This is quite an interesting methodology, so for the claim to be reinstated and stated as fact, it would need additional citations using this exact data. Doing so would demonstrate that there is some level of agreement within the rest of the academic community. CentreLeftRight ✉ 02:31, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree with this, we need stronger sourcing to make that statement or anything close to it. We can use some combination of these [7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16] to craft a more well rounded statement. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:46, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Relevant discussion on my talk page. To clarify for other editors, I'm not arguing for or against the claim, I am saying that better citations are needed. There is considerable debate both inside and outside of China on the extent to which the statistics are exaggerated (as is the case with any set of statistics), so we shouldn't take one study and state its numbers as fact, especially when its methodology is unprecedented. CentreLeftRight ✉ 02:51, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

I reworded the sentence based on the WaPo source that was given by Sbelknap. I don't have the time right now to do so myself, but that sentence can probably be expanded on and made more detailed. Another issue though is that the body paragraphs later in this article don't adequately address this point, so I'd appreciate it if someone else could do that. All the best, everyone. CentreLeftRight ✉ 03:15, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Unless there're multiple other RS, it should be included for reference and marked clearly where the data came from. Sometimes even less than ideal information and sources can provide clues to what's most likely happening and what might have been fudged. Mayboleen (talk) 08:35, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

The Chinese government itself has conceded that its economic statistics are unreliable. A RS was provided. This belongs in the lead. Sbelknap (talk) 12:03, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

"China continues to pose a global threat to the human rights of people outside of China, including political refugees who have left China due to persecution."

Am I the only one who finds this sentence out of place in the lead? Whoever paraphrased the original content made no effort to make the wording neutral. Human Rights Watch themselves are careful with their wording: "China's government sees human rights as an existential threat. Its reaction could pose an existential threat to the rights of people worldwide."

It's like if someone cited this Human Rights Watch report on the United States and added the sentence "The United States is a backwards country when it comes to human rights" to the lead of the United States. No doubt the sentence is true, but that's not how things should be worded on Wikipedia. Sentences should sound neutral regardless of its content or source. CentreLeftRight ✉ 19:03, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

The Human Rights Watch report on the USA does not describe the USA as a backwards country when it comes to human rights. The Human Rights Watch report on China does describe China as a global threat to the human rights of people outside of China. There is a broad consensus among reliable sources that China is a threat to Chinese nationals who are living outside of China. This belongs in the lead. Sbelknap (talk) 20:46, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I read that annual report every year and I’ve never seen anything in it which would support the statement "The United States is a backwards country when it comes to human rights.” Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:31, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Also just FYI we currently do include human rights in the lead for United States: "Despite receiving relatively high ratings for its human rights record, the country has received some criticism in regard to inequality related to race and income, the use of capital punishment, high incarceration rates and lack of universal health care among other issues.” Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:32, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

This previous edit of mine (as well as the following edits by me), which was further paraphrased by someone else, probably speaks to my intentions and reasoning better than what I've written here. CentreLeftRight ✉ 00:01, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Academic sources over media

@Moxy: Regarding this revert I made, the edit summary obviously doesn't make sense because I thought the edits were to Talk:China. Regardless, you should voice your concerns here before readding your maintenance tags, and avoid adding comments like "Lets try and find non media drap sources pls" into citations' URLs (and breaking them). CentreLeftRight ✉ 00:07, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Very odd the edit summary was in the article like that....did not notice. Did we find better sources?....got to start upgrading the type of sources used here.--Moxy- 02:01, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

As per WP:RS, journalists may be considered reliable sources. This is a complex issue that has been extensively discussed by wikipedia editors, and those discussions continue. My understanding is that editors are to rely on and cite from reliable sources, emphasizing secondary sources. There is nothing inherently "better" about academic sources versus journalistic sources. To the contrary, in the case of a political article, academic sources may exhibit more bias than media sources. Instead, editors may cite secondary sources which digest and synthesize primary sources in a fair manner. Sbelknap (talk) 02:15, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

 Fixed.--Moxy- 02:38, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Chinese Constitution

Please replace non-official AND outdated links to the Chinese Constitution and instead use this: http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/constitution2019/201911/1f65146fb6104dd3a2793875d19b5b29.shtml 190.219.182.200 (talk) 19:51, 19 March 2021 (UTC)