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Rape of Nanking, British China and Genghis Khan

Sock disruption again

Why is there no mention of the Japanese colonizing almost the whole of the east coast of China and forcing Chinese women into prostitution? Why is there no mention of "British China". Hong Kong and Kowloon were under the British until the 90s! And also, why isn't there even a mention of Genghis Khan in the introduction! Genghis Khan occupied the whole of China ending China's continuity as a civilization. It is astonishing how selective the article on China is, owing to the POV pushing by Chinese nationalists. (pauses typing due to uncontrollable laughter at the term "Chinese nationalist"). Please add the following sentence in the introduction. "To this day, China is the only civilization to be colonized by both Asian and European imperial powers. Japan and The United Kingdom colonized China in the 1900s." (please add specific date). We are a group of historians at a well known university and we were shocked at the inaccuracies in the articles regarding China and India on wikipedia. As with many universities around the world, we inevitably end up comparing the 2 fastest growing economies on the planet today and the level of misinformation is astounding. We will definitely take up this issue at the Wikimedia conference if it takes place in our city. If required, we are willing to take legal action as well. Such utterly nonsensical articles pushing the Chinese POV! It is disgusting! Can we please have the contact details of the founder of wikipedia- Jimmy Wales. Thank you! 122.167.117.124 (talk) 13:09, 8 October 2011 (UTC) See WP:LEGAL. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:22, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Collapsing. That's Realhistorybuff (talk · contribs) again causing disruption. Elockid ^(Talk) 13:37, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Dude, you are the same troll basher who talk smack against China and is pro-Indian Superpower. Get your butt out of here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.2.108 (talk) 17:55, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Please avoid making inappropriate comments about other editors. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:10, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Orthographic map

For the orthographic map of China within the country infobox, I've noticed that the key denotes that actual administration is in dark green, and claimed territories are in light green, which is why Aruchanal Pradesh and Taiwan are coloured in light green. If this is the case, shouldn't the nine-dotted line in the South China Sea be marked in light green as well, like it is on all official PRC maps? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:04, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

It's not clear what kind of claim that line represents. If the claim is simply to the islands contained within the line, then if they are big enough, those islands should be colored in (like Japan's Okinawa Prefecture); if they aren't, then it isn't usual practice to make such markings on orthographic maps. However, on ordinary maps, the area within the line should be enlarged and shown, like so. Quigley (talk) 05:18, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Hatnote regarding Taiwan

I made an edit to the hatnote about ROC, mentioning that ROC means the country commonly known as Taiwan. The hatnote was then removed entirely by User:JohnBlackburne, with edit summary: "as per WP:RELATED, hatnotes are for topics with ambiguous names, not for related topics". Per BRD, I'm here on the talk page.

I would contend that "People's Republic of China" and "Republic of China" are certainly ambiguous names to anyone unaware that two countries have the phrase "Republic of China" in their name. If someone reads of "Republic of China" and doesn't know what it is, they're likely to type in "China" to find out.

Besides this issue with the names, I have to make a point as one of the triumvirate who made the decision to move the PRC article to China. It was a major factor for me that there would be very clear disambiguation regarding ROC at the very top of the China article, and I made my commitment to be here, helping ensure that would happen. If I thought that ROC would be sidelined or minimized in any way - if I thought that there would fail to be a clear link to ROC/Taiwan before the lede of this article - then I never would have concurred with the move. To me, this is a vital point.

There is a country issuing passports that say "Republic of China" on the front. People will look for that country here, and they should be able to find it very, very quickly and easily.

I request that the ROC/Taiwan hatnote be restored as essential to the compromise that moved this article to its present location. -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:18, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The ROC is already discussed in the lead, pretty quickly (second paragraph). I don't think that anyone with a ROC passport would have trouble distinguishing between the two articles. Anyone searching for the Republic of China will search for "Republic of China", and if they arrive here by some mistake, they will see that the first sentence is about the "People's Republic of China", and that the flag and territory in the infobox is not what they expected. Again, the short and common name for ROC is "Taiwan", not "China", and anyone who knows the most basic facts about the ROC beyond its name (and even those who just know the name) will recognize that they are at the wrong place in the lead, which mentions "Republic of China" by contrast quickly and explicitly. Quigley (talk) 21:34, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. Your claim "Anyone searching for the Republic of China will search for 'Republic of China'" is not at all clear to me. Suppose you're never heard of ROC, but you know that the "Republic of France" is commonly called "France". Why would you not assume that a nation called "Republic of China" is commonly called "China"? Obviously, someone whose passport is Taiwanese won't be confused; I'm talking about someone who might see that passport without being aware that two countries are called "Republic of China", one with the word "People's" in the front.

Are you arguing against a hatnote for Taiwan? -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:41, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't mind a hatnote for Taiwan, although I think the top of the article would look cluttered with three hatnotes, {{contains Chinese text}}, the multiple names for China, and so on. I was disturbed that you were tying this issue to the page's title, and I want to be sure that there's sound independent reasoning for the hatnote. Personally, I can't imagine many scenarios where someone would encounter the "Republic of China" without gaining some information that allows them to distinguish the topic. "China" is unambiguous in common speech, so anywhere the ROC is presented to outsiders, there is usually some clarification. Quigley (talk) 21:57, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The issue of clutter at the top of the page is important and worth considering. I will look very carefully at this before making any further edits; you can be sure of that. Whether I will make further edits or not is not certain.

I'm bothered by the relation of this issue to the page title, and I agree with your sentiment that there should be sound independent reasoning for the hatnote. I do, however, feel kind of blindsided, as if the goalposts have been moved after the fact. My feelings are not what we base decisions on though, so I'm being very careful here. I appreciate your comments, and everyone's. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:16, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I added a note to the section above where we originally discussed this, but in reply to the particular points mentioned above: there are many topics which readers might be looking for when they come here, because the names are similar so maybe ambiguous. Not only Republic of China but also Chinese culture, Mainland China, Greater China, etc. If there were only one such then it would make sense to link to it directly, but as there are many there's a link to the DAB page instead. Otherwise why not also add one or more of the others? There's no need to help users used to finding the ROC at China as it's never been there. There was perhaps a need for such a link to Chinese civilization but that article has now been merged with others, including this.The ROC is an important topic, which is why is is mentioned in the first few lines of the lead; it has hardly been sidelined. But there seems no good reason to have it also as a hatnote, especially as the article already has more hatnotes than most.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 21:57, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

John, thanks for commenting. You say, "There's no need to help users used to finding the ROC at China as it's never been there." Actually, until last week, it quite explicitly was there! If I say "Republic of China" to most Americans, they'll think I mean China. As long as "Republic of China" is used in formal settings as a name for Taiwan, this will be an issue.

I'll review the lede, but I still think a hatnote is preferable. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:12, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I meant up until a week ago anyone typing China into the search box would find the article moved to Chinese civilization. Yes, that article had a hatnote linking to both the PRC and ROC but that was because it was an article without a clear reason to exist: with both the PRC and ROC mentioned in the hatnote, highlighted in the lede and illustrated using maps it was like an extended DAB page together with bits of History of China and other articles; it has now been merged with other articles.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 23:31, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

After all the debates, the current trend is that people don't refer to ROC as China anymore. Wikipedia has been bad to "educate it". Going forward we need to refer ROC independently as Taiwan. We'll still focus on the old ROC on mainland as a pre-1949 entity. But according to all the people who participated in debates, it is not fair to deny mainlanders full China status. After all the UN gave it to them. Benjwong (talk) 21:59, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Well... I'm feeling pretty burned by this. I felt like I supported the move from PRC to China with a certain understanding, and now I feel a bit betrayed. I know that Wikipedia is not based on personal deals, nor on my feelings, but this bothers me nonetheless.

Lots of editors agreed with the idea of an expandable, detailed hatnote regarding ROC, complete with a map or a timeline. That's when they were trying to get something they wanted. Now they've got it; where is that willingness? Benjwong, "According to all the people who participated in debates"? You're using a different definition of "all" than the one I know about.

This is troubling to me, and causes me to doubt the whole process that got us here.

The idea that I'm trying to "deny mainlanders full China status" by supporting a hatnote that says "not to be confused with the Republic of China, commonly called Taiwan", is a stretch that beggars my comprehension. "Not to be confused with" means "that's not what we're talking about here." -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:05, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Benjwong is being sarcastic and caricaturing what he thinks the move supporters' feelings are. He was rebuked for doing the same thing during the move discussion, where he actually opposed the move. I sympathize with you for making a hard move, and I'm willing to work with you on whatever you think is necessary to improve this article. Moving forward, however, we should have a higher standard of conduct, especially with regard to transparency, because that was severely lacking under the former "China" article structure regime. Quigley (talk) 23:02, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I think we should put it back in, at least until we get this resolved here. There's some merit to the argument that someone wanting the Republic of China may search China. Hey, it's better than whatever reasoning there is for having a disambiguation to Northern Ireland from Ireland. In regards to there being multiple other uses of China, yes there are, but if that is no reason we can't have one or two explicitly mentioned here. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:21, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

If you do put it back in, please merge that hatnote with one or the other of the existing hatnotes so that it takes up less space. Quigley (talk) 04:34, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

The names of PRC and ROC are indeed quite similar. It's not unreasonable to have the hatnote on ROC(Taiwan). STSC (talk) 04:27, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I suggest to use this combined format:

{{Two other uses|USE1|USE2|PAGE2}} → Template:Two other uses

STSC (talk) 05:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I too was under the impression that a hatnote for ROC was part of the compromise discussed during the move requests, though I didn't cast a vote in them at the time. Considering People's Republic of China redirects here, I don't see why a hatnote helping people who were actually after the Republic of China would be an unreasonable thing. I don't find the hatnotes intrusive or cluttered, and STSC's 'two other uses' note looks quite appropriate for this situation. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 05:34, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

There should be a hatnote. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 12:57, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Calling the "Republic of China" simply "China" is extremely rare - almost non-existent in modern usage - it would not be expected for people to look for the ROC under the name "China". Much more common would be fore someone to look for expensive dinnerware or certain ceramics under the name "China". The ROC is handled by the disambiguation page. How does it make sense to make the extremely rare usage a separate call-out while having the common everyday usages hidden on the diambiguation page? Readin (talk) 13:38, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I wrote the above and then went back and re-read more carefully. If part of the understanding for making the move was that the ROC be included as hatnote, as GTBacchus says, then we should have the hatnote. However the idea of "an expandable, detailed hatnote regarding ROC, complete with a map or a timeline" is overkill. If someone has an ROC passport and looks up "China" and sees the hatnote that mentions the ROC, they will be able to distinguish the current article from the linked article without needing to study a map and timeline. Readin (talk) 13:47, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I did vote and a hatnote was not part of the move proposal. It was mentioned in the discussion but a few things were suggested including an expandable hatnote (I asked above for any examples of this as I've not seen it anywhere on WP), hatnotes like Egypt, Germany, Italy, India which are all much more compact and that it should be discussed after the move, which we're doing.

Whether or not the ROC link is included there is no need for them to take three lines though. I've consolidated them so the same links appear and the common name for the ROC "Taiwan" is still there, but eliminating redundancy ("other uses" appearing twice, "People's Republic of China" appearing even though it appears in the first sentence and infobox).--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 23:21, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Those other countries' hatnotes aren't really any more compact, they just have fewer things to disambiguate (if we're counting the ROC). --Cybercobra (talk) 01:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

My point was that was there was no discussion of this in move discussion, just a number of proposals. The one though that linked to those other articles was most instructive as it linked to them and showed what's common, and it was what I was aiming for when removing the ROC link. Even with that link in though the hatnote should be as compact as possible. The relevant policy is at WP:DLINKS – "Consolidate multiple disambiguation links into as few dablink hatnotes as possible." – but it's just common sense to avoid redundancy which just means there's more to read so it's harder to find the link you want.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 01:21, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

It's not just about this title, People's Republic of China was redirected and Republic of China is similar enough to warrant a hatnote. I could live without it, but I understand those that want it. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

It's similar, but if anything, leaving off the "People's" by mistake seems more likely, and indeed the ROC article has a hatnote to that effect. An ROC-seeker ending up here would have to have arbitrarily added "People's" to their search, which seems strange & unlikely, or have assumed ROC = China, which people seem to also consider unlikely, but in any event, we link to China (disambiguation) [which lists the ROC] and we also explain the history and link to the ROC in the lede. --Cybercobra (talk) 01:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I think if there were a country in Africa whose official name was, coincidentally, "Republic of Canada", then we would have a hatnote for it at "Canada". Similarly, we should have a hatnote for "Republic of China" at "China". I also think Benjwong's comment, which is appears to me sarcastic and inflammatory, is not helpful. Mlm42 (talk) 20:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

For the vast majority of people, Republic of China = China (even without People's) and Republic of Taiwan (which doesn't even exist) = Taiwan. The Republic of term is just a generic pre-fix and doesn't signify anything significant. The distinction between mainland China and Taiwan are more important... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.2.108 (talk) 01:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I have been trying to convince people that ROC has been around for 100 years and never left. But even in the eyes of people knowledgable about the topic, modern context Taiwan is really the one that exist. Your comment is likely too late. I am open to merging Republic of China -> "Taiwan" or "Taiwan (ROC)". It doesn't make sense to get rid of one political article (PRC), and keep the other one (ROC) around when we already have a Republic of China (1912-1949). We have the same issue with the timeline articles like 2011 in Taiwan and 2011 in the Republic of China. Benjwong (talk) 03:14, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I think merging Republic of China -> "Taiwan" is a good idea. The History of Republic of China article will be sufficient to deal with the historical fact of the ROC existing for 34 years prior to taking over Taiwan. It needs to be discussed at Talk:Taiwan and Talk:Republic of China. Readin (talk) 02:01, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

There are still 23 countries that recognize the ROC as China; also, someone reading Second World War history may want to know about the China during that period. These readers would just search for "China", so the hatnote should really include a reference to the ROC as in the "Two other uses" format. STSC (talk) 03:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Not only am I uncertain about whether to add the hatnote. But in the timeline of Chinese history#PRC.2FROC section, there has been no event that suggest we need to get rid of the blue side. So there is inconsistencies everywhere. Benjwong (talk) 03:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Since the ROC is another China, it's listed on China (disambiguation), which we link to. Seems sufficient, IMO, considering that we also cover the relevant history in the lede. --Cybercobra (talk) 08:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

You seem to have missed my point: some readers may use the keyword "China" to search for "Republic of China". There's no need to be so wordy in the hatnote, just KISS and simply say "for the Republic of China". STSC (talk) 08:43, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

No, I didn't miss your point. If they meant another China, then that's exactly what China (disambiguation) is for.

At the least, some less redundant description for the ROC can be used if a hatnote is necessary. Phrasing it as a tautology just sounds stupid: "For the ROC, see ROC." "No freakin' duh!" --Cybercobra (talk) 09:29, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

That's the way it is. Maybe "commonly known as Taiwan" can be added (it was there before). STSC (talk) 09:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Relatedly, given that this article is apparently broadening to include pre-PRC China, "the state established in 1949" is thus in hindsight not the best description for this article; however, the prior description ("the modern state in East Asia") does not seem to sufficiently distinguish from the ROC. Any suggestions for a better summary? --Cybercobra (talk) 10:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

"...the country on the Asian mainland. For the state currently governing Taiwan, see..."? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 11:31, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

"The state currently governing Taiwan" sounds like Taiwan is a state (with a Taiwanese Governor?) within the "United States of China". STSC (talk) 12:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes. The key thing about using "Taiwan" is it's the common name of the ROC. For most English speakers the state is Taiwan, and the fact that the ROC and Taiwan the island are not the same is something they are blissfully unaware of. So all that's needed is "For the state known as Taiwan..." or similar wording.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 12:41, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

@STSC: The United Kingdom is a sovereign state. So is the PRC. It's not the same meaning as a US state. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 13:20, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I certainly know the difference. STSC (talk) 14:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I have changed it to use country for both. That is at least clear to our readers. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

But the ROC isn't a country, it is a sovereign state. China is a country. I wrote a long TL;DR about it over here. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 17:42, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Country is the common term that will be understood and is generally used to mean the same thing, I think we could use sovereign state instead if that's a good compromise. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I guess using "sovereign state" is fine too. I don't think there will be much objections to that either. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 17:55, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I added the word "sovereign". -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:02, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

But the reason for using 'Taiwan' is not that it's the name of the island but it's the common name for the ROC. It is much clearer worded "the state called Taiwan", "the state known as Taiwan" or some variation on that: readers now looking for that country will see the word "Taiwan" but wonder where the link for it is, if they are ignorant (as many are) that it's formally called the Republic of China.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 19:56, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't care. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I've changed it so it's clear that the Taiwan is another name for the ROC, for the reasons above.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 20:15, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

In light of the persistent concerns about NPOV in this area, we ought to examine the hatnote (and the first sentence of Republic of China, where it comes from) to see if it really is neutral. Describing the ROC unequivocally as a sovereign state doesn't seem very neutral to me when a preponderance of states and international organizations do not recognize the ROC's sovereignty. How about switching the hatnote to say, "For the sovereign state area also known as Taiwan, see Republic of China..."? This doesn't indulge the PRC's (perhaps early, but widely accepted) idea that Taiwan is its 23rd province, but it also doesn't toe the delusional KMT line that the PRC's establishment changed nothing for the ROC. Quigley (talk) 23:15, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

How about "For the government headquartered in Taipei which claims the same territory, see..." Hcobb (talk) 23:44, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

As someone who still thinks it overlong though I've give up trying to make it smaller myself I'd just lose the 'sovereign'. It's definitely a state. Area could be anything: my back yard is an area.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 00:43, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Despite the Wikipedia article, I feel that 'state' has an incompatible connotation to being a province. "Area" is intentionally ambiguous to be neutral. Quigley (talk) 01:32, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

"Area" denotes a geographical entity; the ROC is a political/governmental entity; so it would be a poor descriptor. --Cybercobra (talk) 03:04, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

It is very questionable as to whether the government in Taipei's active policy is to claim the territory of China as its own. Quigley (talk) 01:32, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

How about country ? It's vague enough that you don't have the issue of whether it's sovereign or not, but not as vague as state or area (which I really dislike - the floor of this room is an area for goodness sake !). Taiwan has a country code (.tw), is treated as a country economically and geographically, etc..--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 03:16, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

The colloquial definition of country means something close to sovereign state, and I can anticipate the objection that such use "would imply Taiwan independence". However, I think it is better than "sovereign state", and in lieu of better wording, I support it. Quigley (talk) 03:22, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Given what you've said I think country is better than sovereign state. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:26, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

"Country" refers to an area and its people sharing common history and common identity. The Republic of China is the current covernment of the country but it does not share a common history with that country. "State" would be the better description of the Republic of China. The sovereignty might be argued, but it is clearly a state. I don't think there is any confusion in international contexts about a state in the sense of a national government vs America's states. Readin (talk) 22:51, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

It is not "clearly a state", because of the lack of recognition as such from other states. Quigley (talk) 00:12, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I would avoid to use "state" or "country"; just say "For the Chinese republic established in 1912, see the Republic of China (Taiwan).". STSC (talk) 01:34, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Recognition is only required under the constitutive theory of statehood. It totally meets the weaker requirements to be a State (polity); or even a sovereign state if one subscribes to the declarative theory of statehood. --Cybercobra (talk) 01:42, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

As soon as either side switches to a "one China and one Taiwan" policy the argument goes away. How about asking the ROC to officially change their name to Republic of Taiwan? They may want to duck and cover first of course. Hcobb (talk) 03:51, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

A level of seriousness on your part would be appreciated. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 14:34, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Chinese Civilisation

It's a shame to throw away a perfectly good article on the Chinese Civilisation (the article that formerly occupied the title "China") may I suggest we put that article under "Chinese Civilisation" and put the current "Chinese Civilisation" page under "Chinese Civilisation (disambiguation)"?Staygyro (talk) 21:06, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Well a lot of the content in that answer really belonged elsewhere - which is why it disappeared so quickly - so if you want to have an article at "Chinese civilisation" I suggest you create a userspace draft and then we can consider it. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:18, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

It wasn't merged or deleted. It's now under History of China. hbdragon88 (talk) 04:21, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Yet more examples why the redefinition of China to mean PRC is problematic and should be reverted. 114.143.214.170 (talk) 03:38, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

The move was surprising - 7 opinions on the move

I'm truly surprised that the move from PRC to China is done.

No consensus, no professional to make the final decision

I don't see a clear consensus in Talk:Chinese civilization#Requested move August 2011. The request was eventually evaluated by a few admins then ultimately done, it was kind of irresponsible of that. The issue about the names of "China" and PRC's articles should be treated exactly the same way as Ireland and Republic of Ireland - discussing in WP:WikiProject China, by guys who care and have good knowledge about 1992 Consensus, One-China policy, Two Chinas, Political status of Taiwan, etc. Also, for such highly influential articles, there should be a pretty strong consensus to make the move.

"China"'s just like "Ireland"

I don't feel any bad when someone calls Republic of Ireland "Ireland". Especially in Chinese, if you google "爱尔兰" ("Ireland" in Chinese), you'll be given a nice introduction about the country with a pretty flag of that country by articles from Baidu Baike and Xinhua News Agency, but not Chinese Wikipedia, which will show a disambiguation for zh:爱尔兰 because of the NPOV things. I think that the name of "China" and "Ireland" are exactly the same case. Perhaps what Chinese Wikipedia does with "Ireland" may be a consultation or an example for English Wikipedia to do with "China".

What's the WP:POVTITLE?

Lots of guys who supported the move mentioned WP:POVTITLE. I don't think WP:POVTITLE fits here. WP:POVTITLE gives some example: Boston Massacre, Rape of Belgium, and Teapot Dome scandal, all of them are historical, and don't actually have a current POV problem, there's few debate on them currently existing, does the UK still deny the massacre, or does German still deny the rape? But the name of "China" is an ongoing problem. Although even Taiwanese people commonly use China for PRC, the government still officially refuses to use and avoid using "China", so does countries with foreign relations with ROC. It's really a big amount of influential organizations officially not for "China=PRC", it should be respected by Wikipedia.

Editors who care about articles on PRC-ROC relation will feel sick about that

If you want to edit 1992 Consensus and you need to link to People's Republic of China, now you have to link to China, that's sick. How can someone, who calls PRC "China" and links PRC to China, compile such articles with a real NPOV? Consensus said "both sides agree to verbally express the meaning of that one China" (PRC can represent "China", ROC can represent "China" also), but English Wikipedia already defines "China" as PRC, that's embarrassing.

Further problems for China-related articles

Because of the irresponsible move, there are a lot of incoming links, which should link to Chinese civilization, link to China. We are facing more than that. Should Emblem of China redirect to National Emblem of the People's Republic of China, Flag of China and List of Chinese flags redirect to Flag of the People's Republic of China? Also some more titles and texts need to be "corrected".

Then why not move ROC to Taiwan?

Now that PRC was moved to China, then why not move Republic of China to Taiwan? That's also a question. It's really weird that "PRC" rests in China while "Republic of China" is still Republic of China rather than Taiwan. Do you feel confused if someone says something like "China and Republic of China"? We've got exactly the same reason for both moves: China/Taiwan is the "common English name" for People's Republic of China/Republic of China. We've got an article Republic of China (1912-1949) for Republic of China when it still ruled Mainland China. So why not move the current Republic of China to Taiwan? It is not fair and doesn't fit the common English name if not moved; if moved, more POV problem may appear since many people deny "Taiwan" as a state (related to Taiwan independence). That's the trouble all caused by the move from PRC to China.

It seems most Chinese here oppose the move

I've read the debate of the move request, also on the talk page of PRC at Chinese Wikipedia, It seems most Chinese Wikipedians (incl. that from Mainland China, Hongkong and Taiwan) here oppose the move. Intersting thing is that, I also found some guy, who according to their user page, may tend to support the PRC and the communist to represent the only one China, but don't want Wikipedia to make the PRC's title "China". I think they may be worry about Taiwan independence (see previous section). However, 1992 Consensus is not a bad compromise to all Chinese guys supporting Chinese reunification or Taiwan independence, or who doesn't care about these two and just want the current status remained.

So, I just want to say those and walk away, you guys may re-think about the move. --Tomchen1989 (talk) 17:29, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Most of these points have already all been discussed, but I'd like to respond to the first point. I'm also a bit surprised by the move, but in a good way. I suppose this case is evidence that ultimately decisions in Wikipedia are not merely determined by a democratic vote.. The arguments themselves must be scrutinized. Normally it only takes one administrator to evaluate the arguments and come to a decision (much like a judge would in court). In this case three different admins independently came to the same decision, based on the arguments presented in the discussion. I think this case is a good demonstration of Wikipedia's effective decision making procedures.

Also, I should point out that as of today, the Ireland debate rages on (see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration). Hopefully that discussion comes to a relatively conclusive end, much like this one did. Mlm42 (talk) 19:31, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

(EC)I can't speak of the other two members of the triumvirate, but I will comment on some of the points you raised:

• You're right there was no consensus on the talk page but there were also many requests for the move to be done. That's why it was a triumvirate was formed - to try and hash out a more lasting decision if possible.
• Ireland didn't really play into my thinking - so many of the other places that were brought up as examples had differing implementations (e.g., Ireland is different from Macedonia) that I felt it distracted from the core issue which was "is PRC = China?"
• I did consider POVTITLE. As I said in my decision, "moving .. would reflect the practical use of the name (China)" which is the point of POVTITLE. To quote from it: "When the subject of an article is referred mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language reliable sources, Wikipedia generally follows the sources and uses that name as its article title" and the most common use of the word "China" with regards to geography is to the PRC.
• Believe me, the biggest initial concern I had was the issue of incoming links. But it's kind of like removing a bandage - you know it's gonna hurt but you also know you gotta take it off at some point.
• Why was ROC not moved to Taiwan? Wasn't part of the question, which was essentially "Should People's Republic of China be renamed to just China"?
• This is EN, not ZH - what happens on one version of Wikipedia is not necessarily what will happen on another. One glaring example I can bring up offhand is fair-use images - EN allows them, DE doesn't. Another is the article for Aja (entertainer) - the article name for her on DE is her alleged real name. But since EN doesn't have a reliable source for it, we can't use the name in our own article, and we have to manually fix the links so said "real name" doesn't show up. We will respect the other language versions of Wikipedia but we will follow our rules.

Does that clarify things? Tabercil (talk) 19:58, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

As Mlm42 said, most of your arguments against the move were expressed and addressed in the move discussion. People's Republic of China still works as a redirect, so you can still use the long form when justified, as in your example; even if it didn't, you could pipe appropriate links. Personally I think that many articles named "X in China" that are disambiguation pages between "X in PRC" and "X in ROC" should redirect to "X in PRC", but those are currently handled on a case-by-case basis. Quigley (talk) 20:13, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Passports of China

The ROC Passport still has "China" on it.

I agree with Tomchen's points. Having a "China" that means only the PRC and a "Republic of China (Taiwan)" as mutually exclusive categories and ideas is untenable. The confusing situation will get worse, not better, with the passage of time. We've got a centennial for the Xinhai Revolution coming up in three weeks, followed by the centennial of the founding of the Republic of China on January 1, 2012. These are events that people in the PRC, ROC, HKG and Macau will all be celebrating. As the China of the past reenters discourse of the present, we can't have China = PRC in all instances except when it means the ROC because pre-1949, China was ROC. And the pre-1949 China that is getting celebrated in 2011 by PRC and ROC, is not PRC, as all Chinese understand. Just look at the passports, Tabercil, both states use their official full names. Neither of them say just "China" so China can't just mean one state and only one state. ContinentalAve (talk) 20:32, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

For the Republic of China from 1912 to 1949, we have the article Republic of China (1912–1949). However, the current Republic of China article is clearly about Taiwan, hence "Republic of China (Taiwan)". Quigley (talk) 20:55, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how creating Republic of China (1912–1949) to go along with Republic of China (1912-present) resolves anything. If anything, it causes more confusion because the main ROC article says the ROC, "founded in 1912, is the oldest surviving republic in East Asia." (emphasis added). It doesn't change the fact that "China" can only mean the "People's Republic of China" is problematic. ContinentalAve (talk) 21:19, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

The move discussion has been concluded so let's try not to rehash all the old arguments. Nowhere does it say on wikipedia that "China" can only ever refer to the PRC and nowhere in article title policy is that a requirement for naming. - Metal lunchbox ^(talk) 21:32, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

It's like... nobody recognizes the Northern Yuan dynasty after the Ming dynasty reconquered China proper. The modern day Northern Yuan dynasty is like ROC today - yes it may exist, but it's powers and legitimacy is massively diminished, nobody takes ROC's claim to "China" seriously anymore. Phead128 (talk) 04:50, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Phead128, where should I begin?

The Northern Yuan Mongols remained recognized and important for centuries after the Ming was founded in 1368. Yuan Chunzong Öljei Temür Khan defeated the Ming Yongle Emperor in 1409. In the 1440s, Yuan Daozong Tayisung Khan Toghtoa Bukha and Esen Tayisi, the Oirat chieftain and King of Huai, invaded Ming China, captured the Zhengtong Emperor at Tumu and besieged Beijing. Esen Tayisi later negotiated the return of the Ming Emperor. Yuan Liezong Dayan Khan presided over a Mongol renaissance and invaded Beijing in 1517. His grandson Altan Khan, the founder of Hohhot, raided Beijing in 1550 and prompted the city to build the outer city wall to protect the Temple of Heaven from further raids. Yuan Shenzong Buyan Sechen Khan still held the great seal Yuan Seal when he took the throne in 1592. His grandson Ligdan Khan signed a treaty with the Ming and was paid tribute to fight the Manchus. Ligdan Khan was defeated by none other than Nurhaci in 1621 at Shenyang. Eventually, it took the Manchu Qing Dynasty to finally subdue the Northern Yuan. Without the Northern Yuan, we wouldn't have Badaling and the rest of the Ming Great Wall. Just because most history textbooks in China give passing reference to the Northern Yuan does not mean the dynasty was unimportant.

Back to the topic at hand, the PRC and ROC are tied together much more closely than the Ming and Northern Yuan. The current ruling parties on either side of the Taiwan Straits used to be part of one government on the mainland. They share institutional roots dating back to Soviet-support for Sun Yat-sen and Whampoa Academy. Hence, they both lay claim as the rightful heirs to the Xinhai Revolution and modern China. Zhu Yuanzhang and the Mongol Khans shared no such connection. The legitimacy of the CPC or KMT over China undermines the legitimacy of the other over China. The mainland government is acutely aware of the importance of Taiwan and the government there. At each level of the PRC government down to the county/district level, there is a Taiwan-affairs office that specializes in dealing with Taiwan relations. Why is that? Why isn't there a Taijik-affairs office. The CPC just released claims on tens of thousands of square miles of the Pamir Plateau to Tajikistan and "nobody" seems to care. It's because Taiwan goes to the heart of the standing and legitimacy of the mainland government. The same applies to the ROC government in Taiwan. That's why they've held on to the Palace Museum treasures in the same way Buyan Sechen Khan kept the Great Yuan Seal.

In sum, don't shortchange the Northern Yuan and get informed before claiming that "nobody cares" about the ROC's claim over China. ContinentalAve (talk) 10:55, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

To aboves: I knew some of my points were expressed in the move discussion, but I think I did have some new opinions. The examples given by WP:POVTITLE - Boston Massacre, Rape of Belgium, and Teapot Dome scandal were not discussed and analysed, WP:POVTITLE doesn't apply for "China", these historical examples are not comparable with the ongoing "China" problems.

ROC moving to Taiwan is part of the question. Under the influence of the highly influencial move, a lot of articles will have a change, you can't avoid that, that includes ROC. Actually User:Quigley did create Republic of China (1912–1949) just after the move of PRC/China, making "the current Republic of China article is clearly about Taiwan" (sic, see his post above). He may have intent to move ROC to Taiwan. The reason is clearly the "common English name", just like the move here.

Also another question similar to moving ROC to Taiwan: many English news uses "China and Taiwan", putting them together (actually that is "PRC and ROC"), so should that use be avoided in En Wikipedia? If it should be avoided (the draft guidelines tend to avoid such an use), why? We moved PRC/China due to such a common usage, and we cannot actually apply the common usage? If it shouldn't, it may cause more POV problems.

I can see that a lot of people who really study and care about these China/Taiwan's political status problems don't like this move. Those people includes people who support Chinese reunification (by PRC side), who support Chinese reunification (by ROC side), who support Taiwan independence, and who want the current status remained, that's kind of interesting:

• People who support Chinese reunification (by PRC side): they support the idea "PRC represent the only 'China'", but they dislike the common usage in English, especially when someone calls "China and Taiwan". (I've discuss this kind in my previous post)
• People who support Chinese reunification (by ROC side): Obviously an opposition.
• People who support Taiwan independence: these people may support the move, excerpt that, a very common propaganda of PRC (actually it can be the main slogan of PRC against Taiwan independence) says that: "Taiwan is part of China since ancient times" (台湾自古以来是中国的一部分). If thought about the history of China, perhaps that may be true. But, this tricky propaganda has a hidden precondition: China=PRC. We cannot replace "China" by "PRC" here since that "China" has a historical meaning, "Taiwan is part of the PRC since ancient times", this is very wrong. But now you guys just put China equal to PRC, that's very good for such a propaganda who want you to confuse these words.

There're a lot of POV thing a serious editor should consider about. There used to be a perfect compromise, discussing the civilization in article China since long long ago, but you guys have just messed it up.

If in future, government of ROC/Taiwan send a complain mail to Wikipedia, I wouldn't be surprised of that at all. At that time, what will you do with them? Ignore them or laugh at them? --Tomchen1989 (talk) 10:33, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The previous situation was not a "perfect compromise". Tons of people complained about it; there were monthly move requests, and it required edit warring to enforce. It gave massive undue weight to a fringe position, and it confused many people for the benefit of a few. Isn't it telling that you're worried that the ROC government might complain to Wikipedia, but you're not concerned about what the PRC government thinks? Quigley (talk) 17:48, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

It's POV because you guys make it POV. In reality, the title of China doesn't specify sovereignty, but you guys make it a problem about sovereignty, so that's POV to begin with. The "PRC=China" title satisfies the 99% of the practical use of the term "China" whereas anyone who want to know more can obviously read ROC also claims the title of China, and make their own judgement or opinion about it. Yes, "PRC=China" is POV, but so long as it's mention that ROC claims the title of China somewhere in the intro, then you are fine. Phead128 (talk) 10:58, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

It may be useful to understand that the move satisfied a long-developing community consensus as confirmed by three admins independently and collectively and then think about what can be done to improve the article as it is. Its a shame that such an important article isn't even up to Good article standards. It will take some work to get there. - Metal lunchbox ^(talk) 18:09, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I strongly agree with this sentiment. The strictures of the previous setup were major impediments to getting this article to GA or FA, and we should now harness the energy of the incredible number of people concerned about this article to improve our coverage of China instead of fighting about it. Quigley (talk) 18:48, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I'll add a strong agreement here about getting to GA/FA. The previous China article was described by outside sources as a confusing ill-defined mess. It was setup to mean nothing to anybody. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I MUST protest against the move! The move is a complete violation of neutrality, morality and basic human intellect. A divided Korea has separate articles so why should a divided China be any different? In fact, the PRC claimes to solely represent China but doesn't even recognise itself to be a successor state of former Chinese States, or Confucius for that matter so I see no reason they should be given the right to soley represent China on a website that claims neutrality.Staygyro (talk) 00:11, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

This discussion is starting to attract trolls (see directly above me). I'd consider closing it, admins. I wasn't surprised by the move at all. It was logical and well thought out, and kept WP:COMMONNAME in its rightfully esteemed place. The key point regarding "neutrality" is this (from the triumvirate's discussion, User:rbpk): "However, the essence of neutrality on wikipedia is that rather than being conscious[ly] neutral by giving equal weight to all viewpoints in deciding on a title, we leave the decision to usage." Done. Go get some sources and improve other articles, all.  White Whirlwind  咨  03:45, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I see this page still has idiots who see no sense and does no research and simply just listens to propaganda (see directly above me). The PRC outwardly claims political succession of the Republic of China and Qing Empire, Ming Empire etc but inwardly recognises Marx, Engels and Lenin as it's direct line ancestors. I dont need sources for this, just go to any state-run school in Minland China and you will see not a statue of Confucious or Dr Sun but only of a rogue foreigner Karl Marx.Staygyro (talk) 10:29, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

None of which is really relevant to the usage of the term "China" in English language usage by basically everyone - including Xinhua and the Taiwanese media to refer to the PRC. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:42, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Taiwanese media NEVER refer to the mainland as just China unless if it's Pan-Green media. Pan-Blue media use the term Chinese-Mainland. Xinhua is Communist newspaper so thats what they would do.Staygyro (talk) 11:37, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

All the Taiwanese English language sources use China to refer to the PRC. That's what counts as this is the English language wikipedia. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:24, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

The KMT administration has a policy against doing so, so anything published by the government will use the term "Mainland China" and "Mainland Chinese" to refer to the PRC, see: [1]. This is not quite the point though. We are an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. We don't merely look to trends in newspapers, but academic journals and books, which are less restrained in space than newspapers. Wikinews has used "China" to refer to the PRC ever since it was founded 6 years ago, while Wikipedia has had its policy in preference of using PRC in place for over 8 years. --Jiang (talk) 17:44, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

And if you take a look at that source it always calls Taiwan "Taiwan" so there is no room for confusion. At best that source's POV would be to put the PRC article at "mainland China" and merely make China a redirect to that page. With regards to academic sources, they may use People's Republic of China to refer to the PRC, but unless they use "China" to refer to something other than the PRC we should stick with the WP:COMMONNAME as per our article titling policy - additionally academic and other serious sources were found referring to the PRC as "China" in the big list of sources, it wasn't just news organisations.

If either Taiwanese or academic sources use "China" to refer to anything other than the PRC, then that evidence should have been presented at the move request in the sources section, a bunch of people claimed that China was used "geographically" and not politically, but were unable to find a single source to backup that claim. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:58, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure why we are having this conversation, but there are two logical points to make from this: (1) That the KMT in Taiwan finds a need to add "mainland" in front of every mention of "China" implies that they think there is more to China than what is being referred to as "Mainland China". Otherwise, it would be a pointless exercise to do so. (2) That sources refer to the PRC as "China" does not mean conversely that every mention of "China" refers to the PRC. Of course this can't be the case because China has long existed before the founding of the PRC. Of course I could find thousands of sources using the term "China" that does not implicate the modern PRC, but you'd agree with me that these thousands of sources do exist. Contrast Zimbabwe. --Jiang (talk) 18:28, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

1) the reason they do so is for POV/political reasons as they officially sometimes call themselves the "one China", otherwise they wouldn't bother using the term "mainland" - however it was found in the list of sources that they occasionally slipped up and used just China to refer to the PRC. If they wanted to really refer to themselves as "China" however then they wouldn't call themselves Taiwan at every opportunity on their homepage. 2) If China was generally used to refer to other things in a modern context then surely those sources would have been found? Obviously people use China to refer to pre-PRC regimes, but the same applies to using Italy to refer to the pre-modern Italian state, and India to refer to states before the republic of India, and we have an article about the modern state at Italy and India respectively. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

(1) The reason they refrain from asserting themselves as "China" is because public opinion is divided in Taiwan and doing so would make them utterly unelectable. The range of opinion in Taiwan ranges from a tiny minority that thinks "China is the Republic of China" to a larger minority that thinks "China is the People's Republic of China and Taiwan is not part of it" with a large majority in between that believes in neither. Among these "status quo" supporters, the conception becomes murky, ranging from "China is divided between two governments" to "China is divided between two states" to "I don't care what China is" to "Taiwan is part of the Republic of China but I don't know if the Republic of China is part of China". Of course, almost no one believes "China is the People's Republic of China and Taiwan is not part of it." Calling themselves Taiwan at every instance allows them to capture the middle ground, and in the absence of ideological consensus, is done for the sake of electoral politics. As for the slip-ups, the previous DPP administration had a policy of calling the PRC "China", so the scrubbing of websites might not have thorough enough. (2) I don't disagree with you, but the key phrase is "in the modern context". This does not mean summary style would be out of place given that not every mention of China is "in the modern context".--Jiang (talk) 21:46, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:11, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

A few users here have brought up the use and definition of the term "China" in historical (e.g. Qing Dynasty) senses, or in certain English-language Taiwanese newspapers. It's an interesting discussion, but has little to no connection with the article situation. Wikipedia is most concerned with how native English reputable sources and the majority of native language users name certain topics, even if such naming brings up WP:NPOV or bias issues (See Talk:Chinese civilization/Archive 26#Requested move August 2011). Do some English-languages Taiwanese newspapers refer to China by other names? I'm sure they do. However, that is ultimately irrelevant to the naming of the China page on English Wikipedia, because the vast majority of reputable English sources use the term "China" to refer to the PRC and the territory it currently controls. And that's all. See also WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ENGLISH for more info.  White Whirlwind  咨  04:05, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

An argument can be made that the countries template belongs under the term most commonly used for that particular modern entity, and it is true that sources use "China" to refer to the PRC. The logical fallacy lies in the statement that the vast majority of sources refer to the PRC when they use "China".--Jiang (talk) 20:37, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm assuming by "the countries template" User:Jiang means Template:CHN and others. His pronouncement that "the vast majority of sources refer to the PRC when they say 'China'" is a "logical fallacy" surprises me for two reasons. First, it's incorrect English: a logical fallacy requires a chain of reasoning in the statement ("Because of A, B is true; because of B, C is true") - mine was just a statement of fact ("A is true"). He should have said "is inaccurate" or "is incorrect." Second, I'm a native speaker of English and have significant experience in Chinese research, and my statement was accurate. If User:Jiang, as a non-native speaker, would like to challenge that, let him produce comprehensive and convincing evidence here: something like a statistical survey of major news sources or reputable scholarly publications that clearly demonstrates "China" among most native English speakers does not refer to the PRC.  White Whirlwind  咨  02:10, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

By countries template I mean the template prescribed by WikiProject Countries (infobox and all). I am a native English speaker and have specialized in Chinese history as an American university student. The logical fallacy I'm pointing at is "If A, then B; therefore if B, then A." That is, "The People's Republic of China is commonly referred to as China; therefore, China must commonly refer to the People's Republic of China." If you go through Google Books, then you will see that the majority of mentions of "China" or "Chinese" do not point to the PRC. (Perhaps if you look at news articles, the vast majority of mentions would point to the PRC.) I do not know the existence of a study that shows what "China" in English commonly refers to - as with proving that it refers to the PRC, the only option is to look at the sources ourselves. Looking at books produces a vastly different result than looking at news articles.--Jiang (talk) 03:42, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Right, I see what you meant in the "logical fallacy" - you used it correctly, and I was wrong to correct you on that point.

I browsed through several pages of the Google Books search link, and it's misleading to say the uses of China there "do not point to the PRC." A number of the entries, like Fairbank, Huang, and LaFleur, are historical or cultural surveys, and are using "China" as the books' titles as a specific abbreviation for or pairing with "History of Chinese civilization and culture" or something similar. A numerically equal group use China in the title to refer to an actual, contemporary country itself - like Garnaut/Song, Shirk, and the World Bank (2nd page, 1st entry) - are clearly referring to the PRC (Shirk even has the red flag on the cover). If titles don't also contain "History" or "Culture", they generally refer to the PRC (excepting ones like Boulger (1898), published before 1949). This article, like that second group, has as its subject a contemporary country itself, and not that country's history or culture, though it does touch on them and points to other articles that do have them as their subject. Therefore, this article, which focuses on a country, follows current consensus in using the term "China" to refer to the PRC. If you reject that reasoning, let me just say I feel like this discussion is becoming a hair-splitting contest and we may just have to leave it alone.  White Whirlwind  咨  04:32, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Regarding point #6

There's a talk page where it would be entirely appropriate to discuss whether Republic of China should move to Taiwan. It's Talk:Republic of China, and there's some relevant discussion there.

During a previous iteration of the move request, I made some analysis suggesting that parallel moves of "PRC" --> "China" and "ROC" --> "Taiwan" might be a solution worth considering. The general consensus at that time was that ROC is a separate article, and that trying to talk about its name simply muddied the waters here. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:43, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

the article was merged, not moved!

I think the decision was flawed in that the three admins effectuated an unworkable solution. There was almost no support for moving China to Chinese civilization, so as soon as the move was made, the Chinese civilization article was merged into some other articles. The ultimate effect was a merge, not a move. This was procedurally flawed in that they should have allowed the merge to come about through a requested merge, or to have declared a lack of consensus for a move but allowed a merge as the middle ground, rather than to force an unworkable move and allow the merge to come about as a form of damage control. Admins in this situations, where there was evidently no consensus, did not have a pick a single side to follow - they could have proposed a third avenue in a bid to gain some sort of consensus. Who knows - perhaps a requested merge would have gained slightly more support and been less controversial. --Jiang (talk) 11:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

As that wasn't proposed I don't know what else they could have done - it also wasn't clear until afterward that the old status quo was unworkable. Additionally it's pretty clear that the vast majority opposed to the move would have been opposed to a merge too. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:29, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

It was brought up multiple times in the move discussion. If you go to Talk:Chinese_civilization/Archive_26#Merge_instead_of_Move (I linked a relevant section for example), ctrl-f on "summary style" "merge" and "consensus". Some comments stated that perhaps that was where consensus was heading. Perhaps those who opposed the move would have opposed the merge too, but would they have preferred the merge over the move? Perhaps it would have been better consensus-aspiring process to have been able to work on a sandbox on a merged article. I really don't know why this issue was never addressed.--Jiang (talk) 14:54, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I think working on a sandbox article - if one can be created with unique content that cannot be so easily merged away is a good idea. I suggested doing so before. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:42, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think you should really think of this as a merge. It is more a clean up after the weird artificial construct which the previous article naming had forced. The Chinese civilization article built mostly on a concept of a multi-state entity which did not exist in the sources which it cited. Therefore the content was either deleted or moved to articles which were actually somewhat about what the sources were about. This article had on the other hand a woefully inadequate history section before the move, forced by a view that this article should only include information about the PRC in the most strictest sense. This however is not how other Wikipedia articles about countries are organized, with only information about the most recent "version" of the country included. So to get this article be more like them, it had a more complete history added. And as this article has had its name changed, it has gotten a short section explaining the origin of that name.TheFreeloader (talk) 18:44, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Then perhaps the solution was to merge the China article into multiple articles? My point is that the solution enacted was unworkable and almost immediately morphed into something else. A more careful reading of the move discussion would have foreseen this, and allowed the ultimate solution to come about through regular processes rather than through haste and damage control.--Jiang (talk) 21:46, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

That's basically what happened. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:11, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, again, I don't see what has happened since the renaming as damage control. Rather I see it as a series of pent-up edits which were no longer held back by the previous naming of the articles. The Chinese civilization article was little more than a place holder article for the name "China". It had no sources directly about the multi-state entity the article was pertaining be about. The article was mostly kept around for its lead, which functioned to disambiguate the term "China" in a way most pleasing to the views of some editors. So when the article didn't occupy the "China" namespace any longer there wasn't much reason to keep it around. The expansion of the history section in for this article could and should probably already have happened when it was called "People's Republic of China", as it is very unusual to have a country article without a complete history of the geographical territory it is occupying. But after the move the resistance to including a complete history broke down, so the section was expanded.TheFreeloader (talk) 01:10, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

That should have been in the original proposal. If that was what we were aiming for, then why didn't we just say so to begin with? I'm still perplexed by how the admins who decided on this case didn't realize this from reading the discussion. Even having the China article moved out of the article namespace would hold more procedural integrity. --Jiang (talk) 20:33, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't see why all these outcomes had to be foreseen, they were arrived at through consensus during or after the move discussion. If there are parts of what has happened since the move you don't agree should have happened, you are free be bold and revert those things to how they were before, or start a discussion proposing to revert them. Wikipedia isn't a bureaucracy, and there are no procedures which are so important that they should be allowed to stand in the way of improving the encyclopedia.TheFreeloader (talk) 22:31, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

The move discussion did not produce a clear consensus. The three admins who came along decided to pick a side, without recognizing in their decision that the comments in support of the move only supported one half of the proposal. I wanted to hear then why they did not consider alternative consensus building measures rather than picking a side. There are grounds for filing an arbitration case against the decision, but I have better things to do, and I think there are better ways to affect the ultimate outcome. Trying to revert an entire move like that would be disruptive; so would filing a move request to get it undone. There is clearly no consensus either way, so the best option would have been to seek some sort of middle ground.--Jiang (talk) 03:42, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

What I decided to do, Jiang, was to ask for clarification at WP:ARTICLETITLE so we will get an idea of whether WP:ARTICLETITLE can be used to conflate the PRC and the Chinese civilization. WhisperToMe (talk) 00:45, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the way things were before was neutral and the 'wikipedia way', now it seems communist pressure has succeeded in swaying some admins to their cause. 67.174.85.140 (talk) 15:58, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The way before was the "wikipedia way" and yet it didn't follow our article titling policy (WP:COMMONNAME, WP:POVTITLE etc) which require us to follow our sources. Something here doesn't make any sense at all.

The old way was forcing us to follow some faux equality between the claims of the PRC and ROC of the term China which simply doesn't exist and isn't followed by the vast majority of our sources. That isn't neutral.

When judging consensus on wikipedia if one sides arguments are backed up by policy and the other sides arguments are not backed up by policy then you side with the side that has bought up legitimate policy based arguments - even if that side is in reasonably significant minority (say 40-60 or even more) in a discussion. Claiming that going against your position is an "NPOV violation" isn't really a particularly good argument - and one that is regularly overused.

With regards to "middle ground" this is a middle ground position as there's a link to the Republic of China/Taiwan article at the top of the article - there is no policy based reason (as John Blackbourne pointed out) for this to exist - it is there simply as a good compromise. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 06:56, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Agree, Jiang. All merges should be undone, pending merge request discussions. The move itself wasn't appropriately passed, too, as a matter of procedure, and should be undone. 116.48.87.86 (talk) 18:39, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Looks like PRC is the sole legitimate representative of all China including Taiwan island. Taiwan is a hopeless cause.108.7.2.108 (talk) 07:50, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

please remove the communist “wumaodang 五毛黨” astroturfers 67.174.85.140 (talk) 15:58, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Please can you be civil and avoid making person attacks. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 06:56, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I think it was chinese pressure that cause the move. The "China" issue has gone from neutral to bias in my point of view. Regardless of what mainland china thinks, there are two China's right now and we all know which is the more powerful one. Further more and it goes agenst everything Wikipedia stands for.It is like the "One China Policy" has been imposed on Wikipedia I think the change should be undone and the China articals return to being nuutral. Nhajivandi (talk) 01:34, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I can't speak for the other two members of the triumvirate, but I can tell you no person had any influence on my decision. All I did was read the arguments for and against the move, and also the relevant policies regarding the names of articles. There was no off-Wiki communication on the topic. Tabercil (talk) 02:48, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Tabercil, your vote was in harmony with established WP:COMMONNAME policy and was supported by a majority of editors involved at the time. I've been watching this talk page since the move and haven't seen any truly convincing arguments to the contrary.  White Whirlwind  咨  03:17, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I've been watching as well - as you said, there aren't any new arguments coming forth that make me change my mind on my decision. Most are rehashes of the same logic that left us in the logjam the article was at prior to the change. Tabercil (talk) 12:17, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

It's not the "One China"-policy which has been imposed here, but rather the Use Common Name-policy. We are simply following the conventional way of English-speaking sources to write about these subjects, with "China" in a modern context referring to the People's Republic of China. If this happens favor a particular side's view in the cross-strait relation, the fault lies not with Wikipedia, but with the convention. Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs. Wikipedia is there merely to faithfully pass on what reliable sources say on the subjects it covers.TheFreeloader (talk) 03:27, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

---The title of this article should be "People's Republic of China." Just calling it "China" is like calling the article on the USA just "America". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.140 (talk) 23:02, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

No, it's like calling the United States of America the United States, which we do. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 23:10, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

---We should probably merge the Taiwan article with the ROC article then too. Taiwan is the ROC's common name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.140 (talk) 23:20, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually the way to do that would be move Taiwan to Taiwan (island) and then the Republic of China to Taiwan. But the place to propose it would be there, not here.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 23:28, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

When people say "Taiwan" they mean both the island/country and the state, not the island or the state. Having two separate articles both using the name "Taiwan" would be like having a Madagascar article for the Republic of Madagascar and then a separate article for Madagascar (island). Readin (talk) 22:46, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Wrong. So I can't talk about Taiwan prior to the 1940's without referring to the Republic of China? Taiwan is an island. So are kinsmen and matsu - where the government is RoC (not Taiwan) 114.143.214.170 (talk) 03:34, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

FREE TIBET!! PRC =/= CHINA!! This not fair, alalalala!Phead128 (talk) 19:40, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Let me bring up my own objection to the move.

WP:NPOV says: "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is non-negotiable and all editors and articles must follow it."

So NPOV is non-negotiable and it has supremacy against any other policies.

So based on this, the move needs to be canceled. WhisperToMe (talk) 22:43, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

But the current title is neutral, simply as it's the name most popularly used for the country and as such is widely used by people of all viewpoints – pro-China and anti-China for example. But even if that were not the case, or if the current name were more biased than other names, it is still the right name to use as, by WP:POVTITLE and WP:NPOV#Naming, even a non-neutral name should be used if it is clearly the common name.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 23:00, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

The evidence here is overwhelming - clearly WP:POVTITLE applies here. Following our sources when they point in a certain way as strongly as they do here is the only way to follow our neutrality policy, as doing anything else is taking a position, which is basically by definition non-neutral. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:08, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I am arguing above that WP:POVTITLE does not apply to this case - People often use "China" to refer to the civilization and not necessarily the government. We have two governments which have "pieces" of the civilization. This new article simply conflates the PRC as the Chinese civilization when that isn't the case.

The popular media (and even the Epoch Times) does have a habit of using "China" as a shorthand to refer to the government. But that is because journalism is about imparting information quickly. People who study China and are informed about China differentiate between "PRC" and "China" and Wikipedia's goal as an encyclopedia is to inform people.

WhisperToMe (talk) 23:25, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

In that case I presume you can provide a comprehensive list of sources (including relevant quotes) which use China to refer to the civilisation and which clearly don't use the term to refer to the People's Republic of China. You'll also need to bear in mind the evidence that has already been gathered. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:38, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Alright, so I will collect them as I go.

Taiwan's Relations With Mainland China: A Tail Wagging Two Dogs (Chi, Su - Taylor & Francis US, 2008 - ISBN 0415464544, 9780415464543) discusses the terminology between "Taiwan" and "China"

"According to the Two-States Theory, therefore, it is no longer appropriate to use the Cold War example of East and West Germany or North and South Korea as analogies for cross-strait relations and it would be best if the issue of reunification was no longer mentioned." - p. 59

That means that there is one school of thought that argues that "Taiwan" should no longer be considered a part of "China" and "The Two-States Theory's argument that "Taiwan is not a part of China"[...]" - Under that POV "China" and "Taiwan" are two separate entities.

And the same page mentions other theories "There is one China and it is the Republic of China" - "One country, two governments" "One government, two regions" "A divided China" "One country, two political entities on equal footing"

Same page: "Of course, the phrase "One China, respective interpretations (OCRI)," which Taipei government officials, from the Strait Exchange Foundation to the President have been using for years[...]"

So that alone shows that this is a full blown POV dispute and not merely a "POV-sounding name" - that there are "theories" discussing which name is better to use.

So if one takes the position "Taiwan is not a part of China" then the PRC is China, but if one takes the contrary position, then the PRC is not equal to China.

WhisperToMe (talk) 00:05, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

And from the same book,

"Qian Qishen explained, In the past, “one China” meant Communist China, that Taiwan was a breakaway province and that the Beijing government was the only legal[...]"(I don't have access to it all!) - 121

"First, since Chen's inauguration in May 2000, all governmental officials, including Chen Shui-bian, have strictly refrained frommentioning at any official event in Taiwan such statements as the "Republic of China has existed since 1912," "China has been divided by the Taiwan Strait since 1949," or "a divided nation, etc." 178

I notice the book itself uses "China" to refer to the PRC government, but the reasons why one shouldn't have the article on "China" and the "Chinese civilization" in the same article should be apparent here. - By doing "China for more general discussion of the country." we are committing a serious POV violation.

What's more, keep in mind Chen Shui-bian is not in power anymore and the Ma Ying-jeou government has taken a stance opposite of Chen's, so I do not believe that we can argue that a consensus backs the Chen viewpoint.

WhisperToMe (talk) 00:14, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Whether or not there is a POV dispute is irrelevant if POVTITLE comes into play. Additionally looking through that source while they do generally use "People's Republic of China" or "PRC" to refer to the People's Republic of China, the Republic of China is mostly referred to as "Taiwan". Additionally they do use "China" to refer solely to the People's Republic. On page 54 I have a quote for that "This is the first time that Taiwan angered both the US and China simultaneously".

Unless they use the term "China" to refer to the Republic of China there is no ambiguity. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 00:22, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Your second bunch of content hardly bolsters your position - that the Taipei government no longer refers to itself as "China" means there is no possibility of confusion - any POV issues, such as those you have found with your second bunch of content, are covered under WP:POVTITLE, given the overwhelming majority of sources using the term China to refer to the People's Republic. Our policy is clear on this. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 00:25, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

1. "Your second bunch of content hardly bolsters your position - that the Taipei government no longer refers to itself as "China" means there is no possibility of confusion" - Not correct, because there's the third position "PRC and ROC are both a part of China" - Even though the ROC is not actively pursuing "we are the sole legitimate government of China" the KMT side still advances the idea that "The ROC is a part of China" - There is a difference!

2. It is very much relevant when there is still a POV dispute! WP:ARTICLETITLE says:

"Notable circumstances under which Wikipedia often avoids a common name for lacking neutrality include the following:

Trendy slogans and monikers that seem unlikely to be remembered or connected with a particular issue years later

Persuasive names and slogans crafted by partisans on still-active, contentious advocacy issues"

(I added the bolding) Colloquialisms where far more encyclopedic alternatives are obvious

In regards to #3: "However, both "Pro‑choice" and "Pro‑life" redirect to more neutral titles, in keeping with point #3, above." - In this instance "Taiwan" and "China" are being used in partisan ways.

Even considering mass market books use "China" as a convenient shorthand, I argue that #2 shows that we should use the better "PRC" and "ROC" titles to refer to the governments.

Keep in mind non-neutral sounding titles like "Boston Massacre" (covered under ARTICLETITLE) do not have real POV disputes attached to them. They just don't sound neutral. This is a different case, as there is a very hot political dispute in play.

To get clarification I started Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Commonname_and_conflation_of_China_as_the_PRC

Once the issue of whether the PRC and/or the "Chinese civilization" should be in the same article or not is resolved, then we can revisit the titling of the PRC article.

And there are Qian Qishen's statements. If I get the full statement, it could help color this discussion.

WhisperToMe (talk) 00:31, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

http://oldsite.nautilus.org/archives/enviro/beijing2k/WashPost.PDF seems to have the full Qian Qishen quote:

Pomfret, John. "Beijing Signals New Flexibility on Taiwan." Washington Post. Friday January 5, 2001. Page A01.

"In the past, Chinese officials said "one China" meant Communist China, that Taiwan was a breakaway province and the Beijing government was the only legal government. Qian said during this time, when Taiwan's leaders thought of one China, "they were trapped." "In order to ease their doubts," he added, "we said 'one China' not only includes the mainland, but also Taiwan. We think of this China as an integral whole which can't be separated in sovereignty or territory. This is the true meaning of 'one China.' "And they had another doubt. . . . They think that Taiwan being part of Chinese territory means Taiwan and China are not equal. . . . To ease this doubt, we said the mainland and Taiwan belong to the same one China. At least, it shows some kind of equality. I think it can help ease their doubt." Qian also acknowledged that China's other main formulation for its ties to Taiwan -- "one country, two systems" -- faces opposition on the island. One of the reasons is that China used this formula when it reasserted control over the former colonies of Hong Kong and Macao. Taiwanese do not view their island as anyone's colony and resent the parallel. "There is much room [for negotiations] on this problem," he said."

Also: "The two sides, while having much in common culturally, have grown far apart politically and economically since 1895, the last time China controlled Taiwan for any meaningful period. To bridge this divide, analysts have said, China must expand the definition of "one China," making it bigger than Communist China and bigger than China's one-party system and turning it into more of a grouping of culturally linked peoples than a tightly knit state."

Notice how funny the quote sounds since they are using "China" to refer to the PRC?

WhisperToMe (talk) 01:00, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

The quote might sound "funny" because they are using China to refer to the PRC, but that's what they are doing. If you want the title to be reconsidered you need to bring up examples of people using China to refer to something other than the People's Republic in a modern context.

With regards to a hot political issue, people have bought that up before, and its unpersuasive. There's no text in WP:POVTITLE that says it doesn't apply to "hot political issues".

The current title is also consistent with the way we title almost every other country - you can hardly claim that is a colloquialism. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:39, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

1. Where are the discussions which were resolved that these arguments were not persuasive?

2. The way POVTITLE is applied means that labels like "pro-choice" and "pro-life," which are common in the media, aren't used here

3. Zhang, Yingjin and Zhiwei Zhao. Encyclopedia of Chinese Film. Taylor & Francis, 1998. ISBN 0415151686, 9780415151689 64.

This page distinguishes between Taiwan, Hong Kong, and the mainland, but it's an encyclopedia of "Chinese film" so all are "Chinese"

So if things from "Taiwan" are "Chinese" (and this is not including Malaysia or Singapore as "Chinese") then "China" can be construed to be larger than the People's Republic on the Mainland. This is 1998, so this is recent.

Hutchings, Graham. "Modern China: A Guide to A Century of Change." Harvard University Press, 2003. 415. ISBN 0674012402, 9780674012400.

"Taiwan was indeed the first Chinese democracy" - Even though it's being informally used to refer to the ROC (And this is post-Chiang since this refers to Chen Shui-bian) this makes it clear that the author is not conflating the PRC as "China"

Hu, Jason C. Quiet revolutions on Taiwan, Republic of China. Kwang Hwa Pub. Co., 1994.

Has an essay titled "Building the First Chinese Democracy: the Crises and Leadership of President Lee Teng-hui" which begins on Page 43

There's also a book called The First Chinese Democracy: Political Life in the Republic of China on Taiwan by Linda Chao and Ramon H. Meyers. Johns Hopkins University Press, 1998.

I will revisit this page later to answer more points.

WhisperToMe (talk) 20:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

And yet even more proof that "China" does not always equal PRC.

• Goughland, Chia-Mei Jane. The Study of China in Universities: A Comparative Case Study of Australia and the United Kingdom. Cambria Press, 2008. ISBN 1604975695, 9781604975697.
• Page xxvii (first page under "Definition of Terms"):
  • "The word China has several meanings and has been a topic of sometimes heated political debate over many years. The definition of China for purposes of this book encompasses both geographical and political China. Geographical China refers to the physical space of China, often described as mainland China. Political China refers to the China known as the political entity People's Republic of China (PRC) and the current government.
  • The word China can also mean cultural China, and I have used that term to include all of the Chinese cultures and traditions created, practiced, and interpreted by people of Chinese ethnic origin from Greater China and its diaspora around the world. In this sense, it is more closely related to the wider scope of "Sino" rather than the narrower definition of China that is often taken as simply the geographical and political China of the PRC that[...]"
• Continued on xxviii:
  • "began in 1949. The words Greater China are also used to refer to Mainland China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan"

So already in modern usage we have two different common definitions of the word "China" - One refers to ONLY Mainland China and the PRC government, and one ALSO refers to Hong Kong and Taiwan as well as the Mainland! WhisperToMe (talk) 22:33, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Single sources using China in ways they have to define in order for it to be understood don't in any way form an argument against COMMONNAME. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 22:44, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Chipmunk, right now I am arguing against the consolidation of "China" and "People's Republic of China" together. This woman is describing the common definitions of "China" in public discourse. She is not trying to redefine the words. She is describing them. If you like I will find more sources that will give more detail on this matter.

WhisperToMe (talk) 22:55, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Lo, Sonny Shiu-Hing. The Dynamics of Beijing-Hong Kong Relations: A Model for Taiwan? Hong Kong University Press, 2008. ISBN 9622099084, 9789622099081.

245: "The PRC side occasionally floated the idea that even the definition of China could perhaps be discussed, including the likelihood of uniting Taiwan under the umbrella concept of United China or Greater China."

Williams, Mark. Competition Policy and Law in China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. Cambridge University Press, 2005. ISBN 052183631X, 9780521836319.

Page 2: "The expression 'Greater China' is often used as a useful phrase to avoid the political pitfalls of comparing the de jure separate jurisdictions known as Mainland China, Hong Kong and Macau and the de facto separate jurisdiction of Taiwan. For convenience, in this thesis the words 'China' and 'the Mainland' are used interchangeably and since Mainland China forms the largest constituent part of the People's Republic of China, the abbreviation PRC is also sometimes used in the restricted sense of applying only to Mainland China."

Page 4: "Thus, what is sometimes referred to as Greater China can be divided into the following jurisdictions: a socialist Mainland, 'The People's Republic is a socialist state under the people's democratic dictatorship led by working class' based on 'democratic centralism', non-socialist Hong Kong and Macau SARs and the ROC on Taiwan whose constitution states it to be a 'democracy of the people, to be governed by the people and for the people'."

WhisperToMe (talk) 22:58, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Discussing definitions is different from discussing common definitions. If any of these ever becomes a slight challenge to the current absolute dominance of the use of China as a synonym of the PRC, we may consider it. Until then, this is fully in line with WP:COMMONNAME. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 23:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Too much is being made here about how the using the title "China" for this article has the meaning that China=PRC. It does not mean that. If one actually bothers reading the article, not just the title, the full claims of both the ROC and the PRC are reflected. In our title, our job is to reflect common English naming, that is, the one commonly used in reliable English sources. And the English sources above do nothing to show that "China" commonly refers to anything but the PRC; rather, they show some alternate uses that don't need to be reflected in our titles, though they do belong in the article texts. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 01:08, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

To briefly return to pro-life/pro-choice there are a few differences.

• Firstly a number of high-profile English language sources such as the New York Times explicitly avoid using "pro-life/pro-choice" in their style guidelines on neutrality grounds. While a small number of books, and a relatively small number of Taiwanese English language publications avoid using "China" on neutrality grounds its not to anywhere near the same scale.
• Secondly, and much more importantly, the scale of usage is vastly different. Based on the sources found so far for China well over 90% of them use the term to refer to the People's Republic of China. While the evidence gathered in the pro-life/pro-choice case isn't as well structured the percentage appears to be less than 67% - if not significantly lower. If it was used by 70-80% of sources I think there would be far less objections to pro-life/pro-choice. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:02, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

tourist!

does anyone know bout Chinas land that tourists visit? 207.5.117.238 (talk) 21:01, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

This isn't the place to ask something like that. The talk page is for discussing changes to the article. I'd suggesting reading Tourism in China. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 21:23, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Or even try Wikitravel if you're planning a trip yourself: Engish main page.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 22:52, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Please fix this

Why is this redirecting to PRC? You do know that the ROC (Taiwan) still controls parts of China Kinmen, Quemoy, Matsu. All of those are considered part of the PRC's Fujian province so even China considers them to be China and not "Taiwan Province." Therefore ROC controls part of Mainland China (not just Taiwan) and this merger is incorrect.

Two options: 1)Merge Taiwan with Republic of China 2) Separate China and People's Republic of China

This is a huge problem. 140.112.185.129 (talk) 02:29, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

There is a discussion over at Talk:Republic of China (1912–1949)#Propose Merge that may merge or move a number of articles. Benjwong (talk) 04:31, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it seems more normal for me. This article title should not be changed, just because a minority member of posters want to make a controversy out of a common phrase "China" which 99.99% refers to PRC, not ROC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.164.184 (talk) 05:07, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

China is practically universally used to describe the People's Republic of China. Can we please move on. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:38, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

So the republic of china is no longer china, because of communist pressure to make it that way? I refuse to accept the communist party's version of reality and stick to the facts and history instead. 67.174.85.140 (talk) 03:59, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Taiwan may no longer exist within 20-40 years time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.15.166 (talk) 16:45, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Yep, it's ridiculous, shame on wikipedia 67.174.85.140 (talk) 03:59, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? Look at a map PRC vs. ROC. Look at population PRC vs. ROC. Tell me which state has a more legitimate claim to China. You must be out of your mind to even remotely suggest TAIWAN ROC is the real China. LOL! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.15.166 (talk) 16:50, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Is there an article for this anymore?

I haven't been following the state of affairs with the China articles recently, so could someone here please tell me if we still have an article on the subject of what the China link previously led to. I've been encountering these references all over since the move, and I've had no choice but to simply remove the links. It's most glaringly obvious on One-China Policy where an editor has linked to China (disambiguation) in an apparent attempt to get across to the reader what he's trying to refer to. Take for example, this sentence:

"...the ROC's Chinese Nationalist government, which still held Taiwan, continued to claim legitimacy as the government of all of China."

So where should these links point now? Nightw 15:45, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

The closest I can find is Chinese reunification, which has a map that might help readers grasp the concept, but it's not exactly ideal. Chinese civilization, where the China article was moved, has been divied up and is now a disambiguation page. Nightw 15:49, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Something more specific would be "...government of all of Mainland China and Mongolia." or if that is too wordy just pipelink China with Mainland China? It is a bad idea to link directly to a disambiguation page.Jiang (talk) 16:11, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

How would that work? It doesn't include Taiwan... This is just one example of a sentence. Another (on this article) is "Throughout the Cold War, both governments claimed to be the sole legitimate government of all China and allowed countries to recognize..." A search brings up hundreds of other examples. Nightw 18:48, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

When we moved PRC -> China, the agreement was basically "unpopular" to present a concept such as a civilization that covers multiple states. All the previous eras are still part of History of China. Alot of the civilization article was already merged here. Benjwong (talk) 00:38, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

There wasn't any clear topic for the previous article, but we do have the article Greater China. It's a fairly bad OR full article, but it could be developed. I'd suggest linking to Two Chinas, as that covers the idea of PRC+ROC=1China. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:13, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Greater China seems like a sensible target - I've seen that used regularly in reliable sources to mean China + Taiwan. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:42, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I guess that would suffice, although the first sentence tells the reader it's about something else. Better would be a section in One-China Policy that defines what exactly this "China" constitutes. Nightw 18:09, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the article is crap (that first line is very OR), but I think it's theoretically the topic we want to hit. It'd be difficult to get a section in One China policy that defines what this China constitutes, because it is just PRC + ROC (or just the PRC in modern international politics of course). Chipmunkdavis (talk) 19:05, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I've updated the first sentence of Greater China and added a source. I hope my choice of wording is acceptable. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:04, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the quote "continued to claim legitimacy as the government of all of China" The reason there is no good link for China there is that the quote fails to follow standards of NPOV. Wikiepedia doesn't take a position on whether Taiwan is part of China. The governments were both claiming to be sovereign of both mainland China and Taiwan. To call that simplyh "all China" is highly POV and has no place in Wikipedia. It would be as POV as saying "both governments continued to claim legitimacy as the government of China and Taiwan". Readin (talk) 22:29, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Or, more simply, the word could not be linked at all. We don't do easter egg links on Wikipedia. Greater China would be the best to use in that situation, but if there isn't an intuitive article to link to with a title that makes sense in the sentence context, don't link anything. The words themselves are still there for all to read, linked or not. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 23:01, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Problems with China now = PRC

There are many articles that refer to "China" or "all China" in the context of the combined areas of mainland and Taiwan, for example cross-Strait relations. So then where should "China" in that text link to now? Linking to the new China certainly won't work since it no longer includes ROC/Taiwan. Should it link to Republic of China (1912-1949) or One-China?

"All China" is going to be an awkward term regardless of how it's used or to what it links. I'd suggest you being bold and simply editing the instances you mentioned into something more readable and less problematic, rather than the complicated linking job that would be required otherwise. For example, the phrase "all China" currently exists in that article in a sentence about NATO recognition - just rewrite it to say something like "...the ROC government was recognized as the legitimate Chinese government until 1971...", maybe using quotation marks on "legitimate". That wouldn't need a wikilink.  White Whirlwind  咨  18:59, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think legitimate needs quotes, the UN did recognise the ROC as China until 1971. With regards to history I would expect it to be handled in a similar way to other historical states - Leonardo da Vinci's nationality is given as 'Italian' which links to Italy - even though the modern Italian state didn't exist until the 19th century. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:29, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I think it should be delinked. Perhaps the phrase "mainland China and Taiwan" is needed when you need to pinpoint the geographical scope.--Jiang (talk) 20:30, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

It should be delinked. As to the example above, there were never two simultaneously existing states that had Italian heritage and had "Italy" in their name. Wikipedia editors bowing to communist pressure and helping with cultural imperialism to replace anything "China" with "ChineseCommunistParty". RoC still exists, we should respect the laws of democratic countries, regardless of UN recognition. TruthAndHonestyFirst (talk) 00:44, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

No comrade, Taiwan is a part of China. 20:08, 20 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.102.69.12 (talk)

Pan-blue would agree with you, but like all Taiwanese (and those with a grasp of reality and not tainted by the evil CCP machine) they would say it is not part of the People's Republic of China 114.143.214.170 (talk) 03:36, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

(more evidence that this change is intellectually dishonest, confusing and misinformation --- shame on Wikipedia for bowing to CCP's cultural imperialism) 114.143.214.170 (talk) 03:37, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

The way i see it is that this is not about politics, rather simple common sense. 9 out of the 10 people looking for China on wikipedia or on the internet are looking for the current state and that is the PRC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.118.171.229 (talk) 13:33, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

The new move - really a constructive one?

I don't believe so. I wasn't following this but it seems to be a consequence of the unfortunate majority of the unfamiliar. If one were to plot stance in that discussion against Chinese language capability (hence familiarity with the topic), there is probably a positive correlation there.

Languages of countries closer to the Chinese - the Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese pages, all separate these two senses, while the more distant ones - the English, German, Spanish and Russian pages - tend to merge them. Wyang (talk) 04:08, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Fluency in Chinese language is irrelevant to the decision-making process. This is the English Wikipedia, where we have multiple policies indicating, among other things, that the most commonly used name in English should be used for the article title. You should probably avoid making sweeping assumptions about the level of fluency or topic familiarity of editors based on this talk page as well, where it's expected that English is used to communicate between editors. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:02, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I admit that it is the most common name in the English-language media, in 2011. Fluency isn't necessarily indicative of familiarity, but it is correlated to it. Among those who voiced their support for this move, how many were actually knowledgeable about Chinese history and thus understood that a terribly confusing name as "China" is unsuitable for representing the political entity that exists after 1949? Equating "China" with "People's Republic of China" is just silly. Wyang (talk) 23:54, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Then the world is silly: news coverage, sports coverage, schools, travel companies, travellers, etc., all refer to the country as China, or almost overwhelmingly so. The full name tends to only be used when needed, to disambiguate the PRC from e.g. Taiwan or when being particularly formal. But the common name is China.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 00:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

This page isn't just about the political entity anyway. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 00:13, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

What's silly is underestimating the abilities of Wikipedia editors, though it is fairly common when you first join up – I remember feeling that way. In actual fact, you'll probably find an active (but small) group of editors in your field – in this case, Chinese – who are at least as knowledgeable as yourself, and probably much more so. The term "China" certainly has linguistic issues and ambiguities, but WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NPOV-Naming are the overarching policies to be followed here.  White Whirlwind  咨  00:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Based on the sources I found, whether "China = PRC" depends upon the "field" - If it's economics, politics, etc. then it often would. But when talking about "Chinese culture" or "Chinese film" then "China =/ PRC"

WhisperToMe (talk) 17:38, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I doubt when discussing Chinese culture the word "China" is used to refer to anything other than the PRC. China is not the same as Chinese. If that isn't the case you'll need to provide sources and quotes in a compact format. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:37, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

"Adventurous Dining Much has been written about the cuisine of China, and for a very good reason— it's some of the best [...] Though it's hotly contested whether this highly odiferous dish originated first in Fujian or later in Taiwan, the overpowering snack is readily available on both sides of the Taiwan straits." - So a dish that may have originated in Taiwan, and is enjoyed on both sides of the Taiwan straits, is categorized as the "Cuisine of China" (NOT "Chinese cuisine")

Kelly, Margaret (editor). Fodor's China. Random House Digital, Inc., May 19, 2009. page number not stated, but it's under "Adventurous Dining" - ISBN 1400008255, 9781400008254

""The minority nationalities, although presently spread throughout China, are still concentrated, as they were historically, in the border regions of Xinjiang, Qinghai and Gansu, in the northwest, Inner Mongolia and Ningxia in the north, Heilongjiang and Jiling in the northeast, Taiwan in the southeast, Yunnan, Guizhou, Sichuan, Tibet in the southwest, and Guanxi, Guangdong in the south."

Issue editor: Tsao, Penyeh. Editor in chief: Tschaikov, Basil. Tradition and Change in the Performance of Chinese Music, Part II: A Special Issue of the Journal Musical Performance. Psychology Press, November 1, 1998. 1. ISBN 9057550415, 9789057550416.

22:06, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

And on page 20: "Chinese orchestra in Taiwan has not been the same as that on the mainland."

WhisperToMe (talk) 22:07, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

The first is unclear, it might be referring to greater China I suppose. However if you look at page 11 of the book on their map, Taiwan isn't included. The second source is using it to refer to greater China, but then again so does Xinhua, and the third is using the word "Chinese". Even if we take the second source to be using the term to not just refer to the PRC they are still by far in the minority. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:35, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

The 3 Admins have made it English Wikipedia's POV (none of the other language Wikipedias that I looked at have made this change including, I might add, the one in Chinese) that China is only the PRC. Using an example from China's own history, it is akin to a country contemporaneous to the Three Kingdoms Era of China deciding that Wei is the only China and that Wu and Shu are renegades waiting to be reunitied with Wei China. While it's true that Shu eventually was conquerored by Wei, it was Jin (the dynasty that took over Wei by a coup de tat) that conquerored Wu. Basically, Wikipedia has decided the fate of the ROC (as well as the PRC) before history has played itself out. Could anything be more of a POV violation than that? What takes precedence on Wikipedia? NPOV or COMMONNAME?

Wikipedia hasn't decided the fate of anything. Things change in the future and Wikipedia gets updated accordingly. NPOV and COMMONNAME aren't in conflict. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

See the FAQ at the top. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:35, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

The de facto situation about the PRC and ROC didn't change - the actual political situation was the same since Wikipedia began operations in 2001. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:31, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 24 November 2011

Ravi (talk) 08:23, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Not done: That's not an edit request, that's one sentence. What do you want changed? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 09:16, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Wrong link in reference 161

The reference 161 about media rights in China has a dead link.

This is the old one - http://hrichina.org/public/contents/article?revision_id=29582&item_id=29576

Here is the right one - http://hrichina.org/content/4123

Hkdobrev (talk) 21:58, 25 November 2011 (UTC) Harry

 Done, thanks--Jac16888 ^Talk 22:06, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

GDP

Why are the GDP numbers for China and a lot of states already 2011. The year isn't over yet and the figures comes from IMF estimates. Shouldn't wikipedia stay put and wait for the official numbers to come out next year ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.118.171.229 (talk) 13:27, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

"2011 estimate" means the estimate was made in 2011. IMF updates their figures twice a year in April and October, it doesn't really correspond to the January-December year. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:37, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

A way forward (PRC/ROC)

Posted from my comment o the talk page of the Republic of China. During a discussion over there, I proposed that we look to a other resolution processes along the lines of the Ireland question, the Burma/Myanmar problem, and by that I mean through something like Mediation or Arbitration, or at least, more thorough discussion at WP:NC-CHN. It seems to me that the current situation as it stands (after the former status quo) is most certainly not adequate in any way, and neither will the situation be entirely satisfactory after the latest proposals. I also echo the problems of common name and NPOV guidelines (especially as applied to this kind of situation) that they, too could use reform, although that would involve Project-wide changes. There should be a halt to current proposals until such time as established principles are in place, to allow for a situation in which a reasonable comprimise can eventually be reached. Ideally, if that were to happen, the China article would revert back to where it was, because in hindsight, due to the consensus controversy, it seems that the move at the time was not really a good idea. Of course no solution to this problem is perfect, this is just my idea here.--Tærkast (Discuss) 13:14, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't see the consensus controversy that you do, except for the continued objections of a minority of users who didn't like it. If you think you need to reform the project-wide NPOV and COMMONNAME guidelines in order to affect the way this single article is handled, I suggest you take that up first. Good luck. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I didn't initally bring up those issues of NPOV and COMMONNAME reform, I said I agreed with them. This ROC/PRC issue isn't in anyway simple. Again, this is only my opinion about it--Tærkast (Discuss) 14:59, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't really see what Mediation and/or Arbitration can possibly deliver beyond spending more time on this. A very strong policy and evidence based case was made which resulted in the current position without explicit mediation.

Because this is an article titles dispute, and because a descriptive title would be highly inappropriate there isn't much room for compromise beyond the link to the ROC at the top.

With regards to the other cases you've bought up the difference with the Ireland and Myanmar cases is that sources are far, far more divided on their usage of the terms - it is trivial to find sources using Ireland to refer to the Republic and to find sources using it to refer to the island, in Myanmar's case some sources use Burma some don't in a roughly 50-50 split. Here ~95% of sources use China to refer to the PRC. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:02, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

The fundamental question I want you to answer is what good could mediation achieve for this case and what would be a plausible compromise they might reach. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:10, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Those are only suggestions, what I'm getting at is that continual requested moves aren't doing any of the articles good with regards to stability and such. What could mediation or other such methods achive? I can't answer that, but at least it provides a larger scope of discussion on the issue at hand, which is what's needed before anymore moves.--Tærkast (Discuss) 21:33, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

If you think continual move requests aren't productive why bring it up? We don't need to have any more move requests as the current titles pretty much conclusively follow our policies.

If you think mediation is a good idea I think its perfectly reasonable to ask what possible outcomes we could come to. Its not as if the possibilities are endless. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:40, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

It's not clear to me that the Taiwan / ROC article situation conclusively follows our policies.. in fact, there appears to be a majority, at least, who support a change to that situation (see the on-going discussion at Talk:Republic_of_China#New_Proposal). I think that discussion is what prompted this thread. Mlm42 (talk) 03:56, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Fair point, I was thinking of this article following our policies. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:47, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

The issue here effectively was mediated by three uninvolved administrators when the last move proposal was effected. I'm not sure what further mediation you're seeking, except to try all avenues available until one of them supports the desired outcome. There may be a group of editors at the ROC article wanting things changed (probably the most vocal of which being the IP of a banned editor) but it must be remembered that the number of people involved with the process at this article here was considerably larger than the discussion there, and it wouldn't be reasonable for, for example, a hundred editors establishing a difficult consensus on one page to have that overridden by ten editors on another page.

On trying to change WP:COMMONNAME, WP:NPOV or WP:POVTITLE, I think it's perfectly reasonable for you to make this attempt, but it's my opinion that these will be snowballed in due course. I've been on the opposing side of employing these policies and guidelines in some cases in the past, but it's very hard to argue against their logic, particularly given they've been refined to their current form by veritable armies of Wikipedia editors over years and years.

The bottom line is that we do have some excellent guidelines at the moment, and they're quite good at resolving matters where the perspective of editors on what is POV (and even what is NPOV) differ. This is one of those situations where it's not universally accepted that there's a problem with these policies, but rather that people's desire to change those policies is inextricably linked to their desire to effect a particular outcome on specific articles. It may be better to accept, perhaps grudgingly, that dissenting editors may have a view of NPOV that is at odds with the consensus-established status quo that exists here at Wikipedia. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:53, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I must respectfully disagree. If those guidelines were so excellent, why was the former status quo allowed to remain in place for so long? I would also like to point out that my proposals do seem to have gained some sort of support over at the ROC talk page. This issue has never been nor will it ever be as simple as COMMONNAME or NPOV, again, hence the former status quo.--Tærkast (Discuss) 13:06, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

The old status quo persisted because enough people were prepared to make noise in favour of the anti-China argument that in numbers they could get it to a no-consensus close and numbers were followed because those in favour of the current title setup failed to present a serious case like we did in the last move request.

One of the reasons for this is because in the west, where most of Wikipedia's editors are from, we are told that communism == bad and therefore doing anything in favour of China - regardless of what the sources say - wasn't followed. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:58, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, I've said it before, although it's unlikely we'll return to that status quo, I'd still prefer the two Chinas having their articles at their respective official titles. But things have changed, and articles now have to adapt to that move.--Tærkast (Discuss) 19:11, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Mediation would allow for this article and the Republic of China article be discussed as a singular topic instead of 2 individual articles. When this page ("China") was made to be just the PRC, it left the ROC article with an unresolved status; whereas the ROC article was once "China", it's no longer "China". The question now is: what is it? That is not a question that can be resolved solely at the Republic of China because while there are those that see it as "ROC" or "Taiwan", there are many who also see it as "China". These questions and these 2 (3 if we're talking about "China", "PRC" and "ROC") articles need to be discussed together and a concensus needs to be reached while keeping all 2 or 3 concepts/topics in mind.

FAQ

Please keep it short and stick to the real justification for the move (WP:COMMONNAME), and nothing else. Either remove all mention of neutrality or state things the way they were, i.e. including "proponents of the recent move believe..." It is in especially bad taste to impose an entirely controversial view—that the move satisfies neutrality. GotR ^Talk 21:36, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

The "real justification" includes WP:POVTITLE. That its used overwhelmingly means its pretty clear neutrality is satisfied as you can see from the section of WP:NPOV linked. If you really prefer we can go for WP:POVTITLE instead. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:43, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

"In some cases, the choice of name used for something can give an appearance of bias. While neutral terms are generally preferable, this must be balanced against clarity. If a name is widely used in reliable sources (particularly those written in English), and is therefore likely to be well recognized by readers, it may be used even though some may regard it as biased" is from WP:NPOV. Note that NPOV does not mean "no point of view", nor does it mean "neutral or bust" because everyone's view of what constitutes neutrality is different. Our NPOV policy dictates that we should avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. It's not seriously contested that the ROC is also known as Taiwan in English-speaking sources; even the ROC website uses just "Taiwan" in a lot of areas in addition to "Republic of China (Taiwan)". In this article, would you be trying to suggest that Taiwan province is the APEC member, and not the country? This blustering over political sensitivities is both overblown and futile, nothing productive will come from it. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 21:59, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Then this article is most certainly presenting the seriously contested assertion that Taiwan is not part of China as a fact. It is also not at all contested that the true name of the PRC is the PRC. It is not at all unclear what the PRC refers to (and indeed this term is well-recognised), whereas the same could not be said for the ROC. By WP:NOTBROKEN, there was no real basis for the move whatsoever. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guerrilla of the Renmin (talk • contribs) 22:24, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

If there's a problem with the content of this article, please feel free to edit it. The content isn't the title, and we have different policies covering what can and can't be used in each. Titles are far more about accessibility and ease of search than they are about precision, which is what the lede is intended to clarify. PRC isn't nearly as widely recognised as simply 'China', which is an informal term used by both the PRC and the ROC as well as most of the rest of the world to refer to the PRC. More controversial situations than this one exist in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, or the Ireland conflict, or if you want to see a real mess, check out Senkaku Islands and the ridiculous amounts of talk page discussion about what the name of those islands should be. This particular issue just isn't as hotly controversial as some editors are implying, and what controversy there is will exist no matter what name is chosen, which effectively eliminates it as a significant determining factor. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 23:20, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

1.4 billion people vs. 22 million people... Who do you think is more legitimate to claim the title of China? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.15.166 (talk) 07:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

This isn't a forum. Personal feelings are irrelevant. It is not for us to determine the legitimate government of "China". We're simply applying policy to the article titles of the "two Chinas", as it were.--Tærkast (Discuss) 20:50, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Spelling mistake?

PINYIN for the pronunciation of china is wrong right at the top. Should be zhongguo not zhangguo98.253.236.116 (talk) 20:17, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

You will have to be more precise. I can only see it correctly spelt. E.g. the very first occurrence, Zhōngguó, is correct. It is accented to show the tones, perhaps that makes the letters look like 'a'?--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 20:39, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I think the tone mark is probably making the o appear like an a. It's spelled correctly at the top. siafu (talk) 20:51, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Cyprus

Perhabs people need to take a look at the Cyprus article. There are "two" Cyprusses like there are "two" China's. With one not being a member of the UN nor widely recognized. And shouldn't there be some sort of common standard for all breakaway regions and their claiments ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.118.170.231 (talk) 10:36, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

There isn't a standard because claimant states and world politics isn't standard. Taiwan is not comparable to Somalia. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

And Cyprus is about the Greek (widely recognised) part of the island. In fact its organised in exactly the same way as China - except without a hatnote to the minor claimant. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:04, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Taiwan is not a breakaway region you idiot. If you think Taiwan is a breakaway region, then you should not post, because you clearly do not understand what is going on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.0.54 (talk) 07:20, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Please can you be civil. Calling people idiots is unacceptable behaviour. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:53, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Former government of China in exile on Taiwan

Doesn't that phrase exactly capture the current situation? Or have the democratic reforms inside the RoC made it a true government of Taiwan? Hcobb (talk) 15:38, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Basically captures the nuances of Chinese sovereignty within the context of the Chinese civil war and present geopolitical realities. For the practical layman, your description works flawlessly, but for the rigorous analyst, the ROC is still a government of China that's still in existent, albeit a rump state compared to her past. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.0.54 (talk) 07:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

De jure it carries on the original Republic of China. It carries with it the constitution, the laws, the institutions, the state organs, etc. But in terms of popular sovereignty, it is in many ways a government of and by the people of Taiwan, Kinmen and the Matsu Islands. The sovereignty of this state is exercised by the people of the Free Area. 218.250.159.42 (talk) 14:14, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

A small minority of the world believes ROC has a co-equal claim to the One China title

These small minority is bringing up the NPOV issue, but ironically, their perspective is represented by a few in the world, and is not commonly viewed as important enough for the primary article title revision. Primary article titles should reflect commonly referred to names, not embroil into petty political debacle, because pretty much anything in the worth has an opposite side or opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.0.54 (talk) 07:31, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Under the 1992 Consensus that the Communist Party of China is trying to force the DPP to adhere to as I type this, I'd say that the co-equal claim (again, under the 1992 Consensus) is something even the PRC agrees to. There's even been talk that if Taiwan reunites with the Mainland, the CPC has offered Taiwan's President the Vice President position within the Mainland. Of course, that's just a figurehead position without there also being a seat included in the Politburo.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.174.144 (talk) 15:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

As it pertains to the Primary Article Title, a very few people thinks Taiwan is "China" and PRC is not "China" when it comes to the Primary Article Title (common use of the name "China") — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.0.54 (talk) 09:40, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Conflict with Jianada

Canada says that it is the second largest by land area. Can't both be right. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 11:32, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

OK, so in Canada it's total area, so I guess they're counting a lot o the northern ocean. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 11:34, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Captions

I've simplified two captions. But I've noticed more are overly long. As far as I understand Wikipedia regs, captions should be simple, explaining what the picture is of. They shouldn't be replicating information that could be in the main article or is included in a separate article that could be (or is already) linked. E.g., if it is super-important to mention the minimum estimated dead from war crimes (either separate or collective), it should be in the main article. Otherwise, a link to the article that discusses the events in full is enough.

There's a very long caption on a picture of a road. Why is there so much information in it? I don't think people are going to want to read it, and it distracts from reading the main article itself.

I would appreciate it if someone else could take this forward. Thanks, John Smith's (talk) 09:44, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I've had a good go. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:53, 29 December 2011 (UTC)