Talk:FC Zenit Saint Petersburg

Requested move

FC Zenit → FC Zenit Saint Petersburg – Move made without discussion, and against the decision previously made on the talk page. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 11:21, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support - actually we shouldn't have this discussion. Some administrator should move the page back as a result of the previous discussion, and if Barocci wants to move it to FC Zenit he should make another "requested move discussion", when this article is in it's right position.Mentoz86 (talk) 07:57, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Nice campaigning. [1] I very much welcome editors to the discussion, but presenting them the situation in such a POV-ish manner is a bit unconstructive, don't you think? Barocci (talk) 21:22, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support. And agree with Montoz86. It should not have been moved without a new RM. Walrasiad (talk) 13:44, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. Yup, I am bold and the very same policy some of your, guys, actions are seemingly relying upon says "Editors may make changes without prior discussion" and then "Further discussion should then be undertaken on the article discussion page", so I believe it says I am not obliged to discuss my every single step and I see nothing controversial in moving an article from an incorrect to a correct name, but, if you are interested in discussing the matter, let's do it. However I honestly can't see any discussion on the subject here (which is a bit surprising), so let me start one:
• The move to FC Zenit that I've done is, I believe, an improvement. First of all, the club is never called "Zenit Saint Petersburg" in Russian, it's always just "Zenit", because the club is called that, "Zenit", and nobody really thinks there's a need for any disambiguation between reigning Premier League champions and some Second Division outsider, that's just stupid. Second, the club is clearly prefers to call themselves "FC Zenit" in English as well: their site is http://en.fc-zenit.ru/main/, at the bottom you can see "Football Club Zenit. All rights reserved.", in the club section "Zenit football club was established in May, 1925. At first the team was a part of the Leningrad Metal Plant in the name of Stalin. The club carried the name Stalinets from 1936 to 1940, when the club got its current name – Zenit. FC Zenit is the only team in the Russian Premier League representing St. Petersburg." and so on. Finally, the very reason the article was called FC Zenit Saint Petersburg initially is because of well known systematic bias of UK residents to (sometimes incorrectly) call foreign clubs (FC +) Club name + City name, like FC Inter Milan or AZ Alkmaar (note that both articles' names are correct). In case of Zenit, even in the UK-based press, both Zenit and Zenit Saint Petersburg are used, so I believe it is perfectly well to move the article to its correct title, which is simply "FC Zenit". Thank you guys for reading. Barocci (talk) 16:54, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Example: FC Zenit, Zenit. Note that all recent headlines use simply "Zenit". On a separate note, please don't use any Google hit-based argument, total hits count says nothing about the recent usage because two or three years ago Zenit St Peterburg name were used more often, but now as the club become fairly well known in Europe it is no more the case, so you cannot correctly measure recent usage that way. Barocci (talk) 17:06, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
    • Oh, and the decision that the nom is referring to was made more that two years ago, things I believe have changed in favour of the move since then (as shown above). Barocci (talk) 17:17, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
      • Comment Why does the text on the club badge in the article read "Футбольный клуб Зенит Санкт-Петербург", which I believe is the Russian for "Football Club Zenit Saint Petersburg"? Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 21:42, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
        • Citing club logo section of the official website, http://en.fc-zenit.ru/main/history/logo/ : "When Zenit returned to the highest Russian league in 1996, the club brought order to its club documentation: the blue-white-light blues started to come on the field in shirts with the official club emblem – an arrow, a ball, and the golden ship of the Admiralty, with the words Saint-Petersburg Football Team written in a circle around the emblem. Starting from 1998, the team emblem took on a more modern look, and was made an officially-registered trademark. " Note that the text in two previous logos read "Футбольный клуб Зенит Санкт-Петербургский" and "Футбольный клуб Зенит Ленинградский", i.e. "Saint Petersburg Football Club Zenit" and "Leningrad Football Club Zenit", how they managed to loose that "-ский" suffix during the latest redesign I don't know :), but I don't think that this suffix-on-the-latest-logo issue is important for the club nor is it really important for the subject discussed there, as it is perfectly clear from the text cited above that they really meant Football Club Zenit from Saint Petersburg, or, well, at least there's no hint that they meant otherwise. So Zenit case now looks more similar to that of Ajax than that of Inter (thankfully, the former article is not located at FC Ajax Amsterdam either.) Barocci (talk) 22:10, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
          • (e/c)There is also an occasionally used naming convention in Russian to write club name as FC Club name (City name), maybe they meant that in the latest redesign but dropped the brackets for aesthetics reasons, a similar convention is used in ru-wiki, for example "Арсенал (футбольный клуб, Лондон)" (Arsenal (football club, London)), Зенит (футбольный клуб, Санкт-Петербург) (Zenit (football club, Saint Petersburg)). Anyways all that is a bit speculative to suggest, the source says Saint-Petersburg Football Team and nothing else so we should stick to that for the matter of logo meaning. Barocci (talk) 22:36, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
          • Well, that history isn't actually mega clear - no mention of the name change from Stalinets, it just 'happens'. Whe the text including the city's name is mentioned it never says anything along the lines of 'despite not be ing part of the club's official name...'. I note that UEFA [2] and the BBC [3] both call the club, Zenit St Petersburg, so I don't think that FC Zenit is the WP:COMMONNAME in English, though it is probably that in Russian. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 22:23, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
            • As far as I know (and the evidence suggests), both "simply" Zenit and Zenit St Petersburg are WP:COMMONNAMEs. For example, from the UEFA.com link you've given: "Zenit 2-0 Dinamo Bryansk", "Shakhtar Donetsk 2-2 Zenit", "Zenit 2-1 Lokomotiv Moskva" an so on. Barocci (talk) 22:47, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support - the previous RM discussion from November 2009 (Talk:FC Zenit Saint Petersburg#Requested move), which sought to move it to 'FC Zenit' was closed as "no consensus" - even though there was 100% opposition to said move. I suggest a move back. GiantSnowman 17:26, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  • At least in that request back in 2009 there were a couple of arguments, albeit invalid and easily refutable, in favour of "FC Zenit Saint Petersburg" naming. And now nobody cares to elaborate at all. May I politely remind that Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion and "Wikipedia has established processes to deal with certain procedures. These include deletion discussions and featured content. Because these processes are somewhat institutionalized, they are sometimes wrongly assumed to be majority votes. In reality, Wikipedia's policy is that each of these processes is not decided based on a head count, but on the strength of the arguments presented and on the formation of consensus.". Please, present a clear and valid argument for the article to be named "FC Zenit Saint Petersburg". Barocci (talk) 21:08, 31 January 2012 (UTC)