Talk:IWI Jericho 941

Baby Eagle II

Recently I went to my local gun shop to try and start purchasing a Baby Eagle, only to be told that it was discontinued, and that I could get a Baby Eagle II. Until that moment I had never heard anything of it. The Magnum Research website says nothing of it, but I found the following on a third party's online distribution website.

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=9935_13105_13226

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=9935_13105_13226&products_id=107832

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/images/ssi-2008/53609.jpg

As far as I can tell the only difference is the accessory rail, thought there may be other differences. Since I was using this as a research tool for my purchase, I thought I would bring it up.

.41 AE or Jericho article?

Is this a page on the .41 Action Express cartridge or the Jericho 941? 71.235.66.254 17:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Since the 941 was the first and darned near only model to chamber the .41 AE, and the 941's whole purpose was the 9mm/.41AE conversion ability, I don't see much point in having separate articles. scot 18:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

There are plenty of pages on obscure cartridges that only a few guns were chambered for, and there are a few somewhat common cartridges that nobody's bothered to put an article together for. Since there already is a .41 Action Express page, which merely redirects to 10 mm calibre, at the very least, this information should be present on that page. 71.235.66.254 01:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Title

Does anyone agree that this article shold be renamed Baby Eagle? X360 06:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd put in a redirect rather than moving the article, for a couple of reasons. First, the article spends a lot of time on the original 941's caliber exchange, which is an unusual feature; the Baby Eagle models, while descended from the 941, lack that feature. You can't really discuss the .41 AE without covering teh 941, because the only reason for the .41 AE's existence was to make a big bore cartridge that would fit in a 9mm gun with minimal modification. Second, the Baby Eagle name is owned by Magnum Research, who imports the pistols into the US from Israel; anywhere else in the world, they would be called a different name, most commonly Jericho 941. They have also been sold in the US under the name "Uzi Eagle" and "Desert Eagle" as well (see here for pictures of various marked versions). scot 13:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

What scot said. This article is properly titled. Other names should redirect here. —Thernlund ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 18:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I think IMI Jericho better describes this series of pistols. Koalorka (talk) 01:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The title IMI Jericho is not relevant, IMI has changed to IWI. Please see here, Israel Weapon Industries

Israel Weapons Industries (IWI), formerly Israel Military Industries Ltd. (IMI) (also referred to as Taas (Hebrew: תע"ש‎), is an Israeli government-owned firearms manufacturer.

The company name should follow pistol as IMI is IWI now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by XDanthony (talk • contribs) 23:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

In terms of WP:NC, we're looking for what it's called in normal English. There's almost certain to be some delay in the uptake of the official name; Some never reach popular usage. No evidence has yet been presented that this company rename has progressed to the point that the article rename is justified. Andrewa (talk) 05:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, this is the company that manufactures the Jericho series of pistols.

IWI

IWI Jericho

IWI manufactures these weapons. NOT IMI, IMI has their own site which is located here IMI

IMI has 5 divisions and which NON OF THEM are the manufacture of HANDGUNS. J941Anthony (talk) 18:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

None of this seems to address the question of what the article should be called in terms of Wikipedia:naming conventions. The article is about a design produced by several manufacturers. I'm currently guessing that the best title would be Jericho 941, but there seem to be many possibilities. Jericho (handgun) would be another possibility, but several of its various names don't use the word Jericho at all. Andrewa (talk) 19:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Please see WP:GUNS#Naming, which states that for commercial firearms, the article name should consist of the manufacturer's name, followed by the model's name. The best name in my opinion really is IWI Jericho.--LWF (talk) 21:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... Good point, but Wikipedia:WikiProject Firearms#Naming to which you refer doesn't really deal with articles of this nature, where there's more than one manufacturer and the name of one of these manufacturers has changed during production. Also, as this is arguably a military weapon, the Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Weaponry task force#Naming conventions might be of help, except these only deal with US military weapons as yet - the other sections still need to be written. Andrewa (talk) 02:29, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I am aware of that particular shortcoming, and today has really driven that home to me. I must remember to start a discussion on WT:GUNS and come to a consensus on how to handle situations like this.--LWF (talk) 02:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

As the naming convention suggests i believe the name should be: Magnum Research Baby Eagle it would follow the correct naming as the rights of the weapon are indeed owned by Magnum Research Inc. Do you agree as i would like to get the name cleared up as I have a ton of information to clear up in the article and would like to get this out of the way before making changes. Thanks for the coop. J941Anthony (talk) 06:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I placed a call to Magnum Research Inc. I was informed that MRI owns the rights to the Baby Eagle and IWI manufactures them in Israel for them. Since MRI owns the rights they still allow IWI to produce the Jericho 941 marketed under the IWI name. As such, this however is not true for the Desert Eagle as Magnum Research owns the rights and does NOT allow IWI to manufacture and sell them under the IWI name. Hope this helps and we can get the correct title of this subject. Thanks, J941Anthony (talk) 22:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Hrm, well, a search for '"Baby Eagle" gun' gives 109,000 hits and "Jericho 941" gets 36,500. Getting a search for Jericho is difficult due to the other uses. Just a rough search and not refined, but certainly seems to favour Baby Eagle over the others. Narson (talk) 20:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Moving article to Magnum Research Baby Eagle. Thanks MRIanthony (talk) 07:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand the move. Was the Jericho developed by IMI or MRI? If MRI simply imports it, the article should retain the Israeli designation. Koalorka (talk) 11:15, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it will still retain the information to Israel with the name being its more common: Baby Eagle, the weapon was first developed by IMI and now MRI owns all rights to the gun as i have found out by calling MRI. But is still produced by the IWI to this day (just as the Dersert Eagle is but IWI cannot sell the pistol under their name). My goal is to clean up this subject and i hope you will like the changes in the next following days. MRIanthony (talk) 16:22, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I don'ty think it's fair to credit MRI with the Jericho, they simply import it. I don't care for Google search results. Accuracy of information is crucial. Baby Eagle is a marketing name for the Jericho sold in the US by MRI. I'm going to request the name change reversed, unless you can prove me wrong. Koalorka (talk) 05:22, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Note re RM: This item has been taken off the list at Wikipedia:Requested moves since someone already did the move. If you want it moved somewhere else, a new posting at WP:RM will be required. EdJohnston (talk) 18:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Right, but before I do that, I would like the people involved in the current name have a say. What was their motivation? Koalorka (talk) 18:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

So i have been calling MRI and have gotten two different answers. I have an e-mail awaiting response on who really owns the pistol. Just goes to show myself and others even the source is wrong or misinformed.MRIanthony (talk) 22:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)MRIanthony (talk) 22:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, we'll wait. Just be advised a marketing rep won't necessarily be the ultimate source. Koalorka (talk) 23:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Any updates? Koalorka (talk) 03:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Another tag for updates. Koalorka (talk) 15:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's my take on it. This is the English language Wikipedia. The handgun is obviously not imported into the UK (zero civilian market), and if available it's probably going to be seriously restricted in Australia and New Zealand. Based on that, I think that the MRI name should take precedence; that is how that portion of the English speaking world that is allowed to possess handguns is going to most frequently encounter it. The other names, including the brief time Mossberg imported it and marketed under the Uzi name, should be mentioned in the article (as they are) and used as redirects. Other languages may well come to different conclusions, based on the history of the gun in those countries; I would fully expect the Hebrew Wikipedia to refer to it as the Jericho. As for IMI vs. IWI debate, the design was developed by IMI (IWI not existing at the time), and it is currently made by IWI, which is the small arms spin-off of IMI. The IWI spinoff is relatively recent, and the versions marked "Uzi Eagle", "Desert Eagle", and American versions marked "Jericho" were all IMI marked; only the later "Baby Eagle" versions are IWI. scot (talk) 15:50, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

IPCA

Is this gun really used by the International Prison Chaplain's Association, or is that an acronym for a group without a page? 75.63.228.217 (talk) 03:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)