Talk:Institute of National Remembrance

Criticism

The IPN has been criticized by many, often being characterized as an organization created simply to carry out politically motivated witch hunts.

First, many is a WP:WEASEL word. It has been criticized by some, but unless we have a source that states 'majority', some - politicians and journalists - is more adequate. Second, none of the sources state it was "created simply to carry out politically motivated witch hunts". It is the Polish govenrment which is criticized for trying to use it for that purpose; the sources are critical of Polish government but not of the Institute (which has been created in 1998, a good 8 years before the current government started to try to use it for its purposes - note the critical refs are from 2006 and 2007). Let's take a look at the refs. Guardian criticized Polish government, but the Institute is only mentioned as the institution which analzes 'the archives of Poland's communist secret police'. Newsday similarily notes "independent Institute of National Remembrance will scrutinize the files ... and declare them clean or guilty of past collaboration." Sure, "Many in Poland loudly condemn the law as an excuse for a political witch hunt" - but this is a critique of the law and government, not the IPN, which - as its chairman states - is only carrying out a legitimate research. Similiarly Chicago Tribune makes no criticism of IPN, but only of the controversial law and government motivation. Thus, we should correctly note that it is only a small part of recent actions of IPN that are criticized, and primary criticism is against the Polish government which may be using IPN findings in political games, not against academic research carried by IPN itself.--_{ Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:05, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

many is not a weasel word when it is followed by 3 sources :P

--Jadger 02:07, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

No, it is, just read WP:WEASEL which specifically advises against the use of "many" (How many people think that? How many is some?).--_{ Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

"how many people think that" is >=3, as I have provided 3 sources. It advises against using it as a weasel word, but when it is used in conjunction with multiple citations it is not a weasel word.

--Jadger 19:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

No. Instead of using 'some' or 'many' - unless they are uncontroversial, which is clearly not the case here - we should list specifically who is saying what. Your version created the misleading impression that IPN is an highly controversial institution, which is certainly not the case. It is a respected research institute and we should take care not to misrepresent it (per WP:BLP and WP:NPOV).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I wonder how Pan Piotrus could complain for Weasel words, when he uses term "academic research" for the activities of the Institute? Why then committee of the Institute is called "Committe for prosecution"? "Prosecution" and "academic research" are two different terms, indeed. However, if Piotrus desires other sources - I would add Russian sources in support of "politically motivated witch hunts". Vlad fedorov 03:59, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It is all well explained in the article. Please mind WP:NPA - or can I call you 'tovarishch Vlad'?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  04:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

First. I certainly mind NPA. On Polish language "Pan Piotrus" or "Panie Piotrusie" is pretty polite reference or something has changed in Polish language since the year 2000 - when I graduated from UW? On Russian language the thing like "tovarishch" is different and could count to personal attack. Second. You complained that Criticism section contains many weasel words. I suggested helping you to source these "Weasel words" with reliable russian sources. Your inclination to look for personal attacks in my posts is pretty ridiculous, however, you may call me "spadar Vlad", because I consider myself mainly Belarusian, not Russian. Vlad fedorov 12:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of valid sources

I believe that deletion of Russian criticism by Piotrus is an example of Tendentious editing WP:TE. There are no applicable policies and guidelines in Wikipedia precluding from adding valid existing criticism. Even further, Rusian criticism is analogous to Guardian in comparing IPN with McCarthyism, Russian sources cite Italian newspaper "La Stampa", cite Polish journalists and cite Polish sources on the scandals surrounding the existence of IPN. Vlad fedorov 16:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of Russian criticism from this article is like deletion of non-fascist criticism from articles on fascism. Russia is a party invloved, and her POV should be presented here as notable and deserving coverage.Vlad fedorov 17:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Iwould like also to pay attention that article on Internet brigades is completly irrelevant to this article, despite Piotrus mentioning. However, I could also regard it as a personal attack on me by hinting, Piotrus, please, explain why have you mentioned Internet brigades article in your edit summary. I cite reliable sources (TV channels, and notable russian magazines) which have respective articles in English Wikipedia. Vlad fedorov 17:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe that deletion of Russian criticism by Piotrus is an example of Tendentious editing WP:TE. There are no applicable policies and guidelines in Wikipedia precluding from adding valid existing criticism. Even further, Russian criticism is analogous to Guardian in comparing IPN with McCarthyism, Russian sources cite Italian newspaper "La Stampa", cite Polish journalists and cite Polish sources on the scandals surrounding the existence of IPN. Vlad fedorov 16:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe the info is totally valid. Not that it would be easy to keep it here. I will try to research the matter. For now, I can only assure that all the sources cited are as mainstream a press as there can be. I am somewhat skeptical about using press publication for the historic article but since this is a current politics and society issue rather than a historic one, the mainstream press is certainly acceptable. We should just make sure how representative each of the points being brought up is. If the point is not widely discussed and universally agreed, the disclaimed "According to..." or something similar should proceed every statement. At the side note, I see nothing outrageous or unexpected in this kind of information. Witch hunt is not uncommon upon the regime change and institutions tasked with such investigation, even in good faith, will always be involved in similar controversies. Lustration, even when warranted, may never be fully fair. So, I do not approve the removal of information.

Vlad, please do not repeat past mistakes re revert warring and discussing editors. Concentrate on content. --Irpen 17:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

"prepare the documents for charging the Russia of invasion on September 17th 1939" Whom they should charge ? Not Soviet Russia but Soviet Greenland ? Absurd.

Criticism of IPN by Russian sources

I am not sure about the sources. But the inclusion of this section creates undue weight to promote certain POV. This article included already "Criticism" and "Reply to criticism" sections, which were of approximately the same size. The "Criticism" section included "McCarthyism", "smear campaign", etc. The section about Russian sources only repeats the same claims second time and create the undue weight. Therefore, I must agree with deletion of this segment by Piotrus.Biophys 17:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Ageed with Biophys. I have also merged the sections (elections, Kuron and Wielgus affairs, etc.).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not object to merging all criticism under a single section. It only makes sense. --Irpen 17:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. First of all I have chosen not right name for the sub-section "Russian sources", because these are actually not only Russian, but also Polish and Italian sources. Second, of course we could shorten criticism section, but also we have to shorten response to criticism section and introduce in the opening paragraph information about contraversial nature of this institution, I mean "political police" first of all. We also should note that response to criticism covers not all questions which are asked by critics.Vlad fedorov 18:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

All I am saying is that the criticism should be in one section. Russian, Italian, British, whatever. In my earlier days I made similar mistakes: having something to add to the article, I pasted it to the new section I created. New sections may be sometimes needed, but more often than not, they are not. This approach disrupts the text flow. Keeping the overall integrity of the article takes more effort than to inject a point you'd like to make but this effort pays off bit in article quality and in reduction of revert wars. The more serious your entry is, the less people there would be around to revert you. Some will always revert what does not suit their POV as there are always editors who see the WP as a tool to advance some agenda. But such editors are only a minority, while a loud one. --Irpen 18:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I have incorporated facts into other sections and added shortened Russian criticism to Criticism section. Vlad fedorov 19:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Sections which were arbitrarily deleted from the article

I reinsert that section for evaluation of readers.

Criticism of IPN by Russian sources

Journalist Albert Akopyan of analytical journal "GlobalRus" points that "lawyers of IPN" and not researchers or academics, "prepare the documents for charging the Russia of invasion on September 17th 1939". IPN, according to Akopyan, also censured popular in Poland movie "Four tankmen and a dog", was searching for Soviet agents, "turning itself into something like McCarthy commission on investigation of antiamerican activities".

According to NTV Russian TV channel, IPN is more often called "unofficial political police".

Journalist Victor Polyakov of APN (Agency of Political news), described IPN as "unique scientific institution (as it could learned from its name), having in its staff special prosecution office which investigates crimes against Poles".

Russian magazine Ogonyok reported that IPN is a governmental, and not academic, organization which "performs criminal prosecution functions" and "rewrites history". Ogonyok described IPN as "Ministry of Truth" referring to George Orwell "1984" novel, "factory of vengeance". According to Ogonyok there is no public access to the archives of IPN. This access is restricted only to individuals "authorized by the authorities". Some of the documents in the archive may conatin forgeries made up by secret services in order to coerce people into cooperation. Current lustration by IPN is obligatory for all teachers, journalists, diplomats, ministers, members of parliament, public notaries, local government officials and judges. Each year IPN issues 40 000 certificates for individuals confirming their status as individuals "which never cooperated with secret services". In January, 2005, the rightist journalist Bronislav Vildstein copied from IPN computer the list of 240 000 individuals and published it on the internet.

Elections of new IPN president in December 2005 also were accompanied with discolsure scandal. Janosz Kurtyk, current IPN president, was rivaled by Andrzej Przewoznik, also historian from Krakow Jaggielonian University. But Przewoznik was discredited by suddenly appeared documents which were confirming his connections with secret services. The scandal was aggravated by the fact, that these documents were coming from Krakow IPN unit, which was headed by Przewoznik himself.

A number of distinguished Solidarnosc movement memebers, like Jaceck Kuron, were convicted by IPN, including most recently archbiscup Stanislav Velgus nominated for Warsaw Mithropolit.

According to Ogonyok, IPN was named by Italian newspaper "La Stampa", "a factory of national vengeance".

Some of Polish journalists, Ogonyok reported, are even more radical in their evaluation of IPN. Helena Luczivo of Gazeta Wyborcza maintains that "The use of state security dossiers to discredit and defame political opponents is not a new method. The same weapon was used by communists Gomulka and Gerek and during martial law period in Poland"..

I have verified and improved the above claims with more reliable Polish sources (original article is better then article about translation of an article...).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Piotrus, do not distort the meaning of my texts. These are Russian, Italian and Polish opinions on IPN, not translations. I don't understand how you could verify something, because earlier you wrote you can't read Russian. I am amazed at your progress in studying it. However, your sources do not depict IPN as political police. So your your sources are single-sided at least. Moreover, your version contradicts to Polish legislation, since the Law on IPN describes it as a lustration institution. You deny facts. Vlad fedorov 16:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"and "rewrites history"." Examples ?

Example is an article about Soviet invasion of Poland. Western Belarus was occupied by Poland in 1919 and was liberated by Russian army in 1939 from Polish occupation. But these are my edit plans on history of Belarus. Vlad fedorov 18:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

There was a state called Western Belarus ? Territories regained by Poland from Russian Partition of Poland there were accepted by Soviet Union at Riga. Soviet Russia invaded and occupied Bialystok, is it in "Western Belarus" ? Lublin and parts of Warsaw region were to be occupied by Soviet Russia also when it invaded Poland. Is it "Western Belarus" also ? --MarekZob 18:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Typical Polish historic propaganda. Learn the history, not partition of Kingdom of Poland, but partition of both Polish Kingdom and Grand Duchy of Lithuania (together referred as Rzecz Pospolita). It is very typical of Poles to present our Confederation as joining of Poland by GDL. However it is equal to joining by the US of Gonduras. Kingdom of Poland was a tiny state in comparison to GDL, and Poles were minority in GDL. Poland had nothing to do with the lands of Grand Duchy of Lithuania including Western Belarus. There was a state Belarusian People's Republic (BNR - Bialaruskaja Narodnaya Respublika) which claimed its Independence a lot earlier before Polish occupation of 1919 and Western Belarus was a part of it. Poland conspired with Soviet Union making Riga Treaty. So, actually, for us - Belarusians, both Poles and Russians are basically occupants. Here is the map of BNR http://litvin.org/glavy/zm140.jpg. Vlad fedorov 19:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I am confused-is Bialystok claimed by Bialorus as well as Warsaw region and Lublin which Soviet Union wanted to take as written in MR treaty ? Do you want to tell us Belarus belongs to Lithuania ? Also: Learn the history, not partition of Kingdom of Poland By Third Partition - Poland. Constitution of 3rd May united GDL and KP into a single country. And what does it have to do with IPN ? Please tell us. --MarekZob 19:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Mistakes in translation of Polish texts

Ok, I've read the source on "List w "obronie historyków z IPN". I have corrected previous translation made with mistakes, omitting words.

Original:

"Według sygnatariuszy listu, "historii opozycji antykomunistycznej i 'Solidarności' nie mogą zaszkodzić ani naukowe badania źródeł, ani wynikającej z nich poszerzanie wiedzy o przeszłości".

Translation before my corrections:

"History of Solidarity and anti-communist resistance in Poland cannot be damaged by scientific studies and resulting increase in our knowledge of the past".

Translation after my corrections:

"History of Solidarity and anti-communist opposition in Poland cannot be damaged neither by scientific studies of sources, nor by resulting from it increase in our knowledge of the past".

Czekam na komentarze Panstwa!! Vlad fedorov 19:54, 24 April 2007 (UTC) Czekam na państwa komentarze is correct forum. Please stop this, its annoying and hurts the eyes. Your sentence would be translated as "I am waiting for comments by the State".--MarekZob 20:17, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Hm, strange. Why did Piotrus translate "opozycja" here as "resistance" but below translates "opor" as "oppostion" while vice versa is correct? "zaszkodzić" is more like "to harm" than "to damage". "poszerzanie" is "widening" rather than "increase". Or is my inferral of the meaning of the Polish words largely based on my knowing of Ukrainian and Russian incorrect? I would be willing to stand corrected. --Irpen 05:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"Or is my inferral of the meaning of the Polish words largely based on my knowing of Ukrainian and Russian incorrect?" Rather incorrect. I don't know Russian and Ukrainian as they are not really interesting languages and worth the effort like English, but I think you need to know more about synonims in Polish. http://www.dict.pl/plen?word=resistance&lang=PL opór resistance

Opozycja is used when addresing legal political parties and their actions, not people's movements against dictatorship, occupation etc.--MarekZob 20:17, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

New mistakes!!!!

Original:

"Dzieje antytotalitarnego oporu są własnością milionów Polaków, a nie jednej, towarzyskiej czy politycznej koterii, uzurpującej sobie prawo do decydowania, które wątki narodowej przeszłości należy upowszechniać, a które przemilczać".

Translation before my corrections:

"History of opposition to totalitarism belongs to millions of Poles and not one social or politicial group which usurps the right to decide which parts of national history should be discussed and which forgotten."

Translation after my corrections:

"History of antitotalitarian opposition is a property of millions of Poles and not of one social, or politicial group which usurps the right to decide which parts of national past should be disseminated and which should be silenced."

Ponownie czekam na komentarze dotyczace poprawnosci przekladu. I also would like to note that the last sentence was also grammaticly incorrect, since somebody forgot to insert "of" to link the additional phrase. Vlad fedorov 20:01, 24 April 2007 (UTC) Vlad-your knowledge of Polish is very basic, you confused the text about IPN with the text about veteran's organisation. Your translation isn't so good. Silenced isn't the same as "przemilczac" Silenced is "wyciszyc" and means something done by force. Przemilczac is made by ignoring something. Just an example.

IMO, as far as the second translation is concerned, the substitution of "history" by "past" is necessary as these are not one and the same. Also perhaps "resistance" is better to use here than "opposition" for "opor" as these are not the same. Finally, "upowszechniać" is not exactly "to discuss" but indeed "to disseminate". And "przemilczeć" is "to conceal" (silence) and not to forget. I hope this was an exception and we can trust other Polish sources brought by this editors. --Irpen 04:58, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Leave synonyms and translations to native speaker, and your bad faith commentaries off wiki. Thank you, -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I have so far and I did not the possibility that some of the native speakers would rig the translations of the non-English sources. The possibility of this just did not cross my mind. I must confess, I am surprized even though I thought nothing already can surprized me coming from certain quarters. If you are saying that correction by Vlad and cross-checking by me are false but rather your original translation is more exact, please say so and be specific. If not, desist and don't do this ("adjusting" in translations) again. --Irpen 19:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I wish I could read Russian or Ukrainian as well as you read Polish. That said, you need to improve your fluency in Polish more before you can make completly accurate translations. I will see if we can incorporate some of your suggestions into the text. Thanks,-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I would incorporate my sources myself, thanks to Polonicum Institute of Polish Language and Culture of the University of Warsaw.Vlad fedorov 03:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Piotrus, if you dispute my translation which introduces words left in English translation we may refer to third party translation. I would respectfully note that you are unable to evaluate my fluency of Polish, because it could be evaluated by talking. Anyway thank you for your attemtps of WP:NPA in regard of my Polish fluency, but this article is not about Vlad fedorov's fluency of Polish, may I note. Alas, would we proceed to translation request? Vlad fedorov 03:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of undue weight and excessive detail

I appreciate Piotrus' unexpected change of the view towards the concept of undue weight as well as excessive detail and I hope the progress of many articles will go now much easier. In connection to this, may I ask to explain what is the relevance (and weight) of the detailed list of signatories to a certain letter in defence of IPN. Also, note that the section devoted to a letter is about the letter and not the "response to criticism" since response usually comes from the body being criticized. This is simply a letter issued by some sho take a different POV. "Letter" is a correct name for a section, not "response". If there are other incidents of similarly notable public praise of IPM, we can add it and rename the expanded section.

Also, do I understand correctly that the removal of the material on lustration (performed twice [1] [2] implies that IPN's lustration function is irrelevant? Less relevant than not only the letter itslef but even the lengthy list of its signatories?

If the deletions are resumed, please explain them at talk. --Irpen 04:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The letter - and related articles - are addressing most of the issues raised in criticism, and contains statements of IPN officials. It is certainly a response to criticism, and much more reliable source than most of the newspapers sources (particulary foreing).

Lustration primary problem is that the Polish legislation on it is still being tweaked and its a rather fluid arena; IPN has gained perogatives to officially deal with it in October last year, till than it was just a library for related documents. To reference anything from foreign newspapers is mixing history with speculation, and sources which speak about "Ministry of Truth" and "political police" are certainly not something we should be using. Lustration is not IPN's 'main' area of activity - it is not listed as such on any official website; and those have much more reliability than some newspapers (unless you agree that we can use a random newspaper to add 'main areas of activity' to articles on let's say government of Russia and such? Further, lustration is a political concept and to list it among well documented research areas as it currently is as much a joke and as censorship. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  05:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Lustration function is vested with IPN by the Law -

A teraz najglowniejsze...

http://isip.sejm.gov.pl/prawo/index.html

©Kancelaria Sejmu s. 1/37 2007-03-19 USTAWA z dnia 18 grudnia 1998 r. o Instytucie Pamięci Narodowej - Komisji Ścigania Zbrodni przeciwko Narodowi Polskiemu

Art. 18. 1. W Instytucie Pamięci tworzy się: 1) Główną Komisję Ścigania Zbrodni przeciwko Narodowi Polskiemu, zwaną dalej „Główną Komisją”, 2) Biuro Udostępniania i Archiwizacji Dokumentów, 3) Biuro Edukacji Publicznej, 4) Biuro Lustracyjne. 2. W oddziałach tworzy się: 1) oddziałowe komisje ścigania zbrodni przeciwko Narodowi Polskiemu, zwane dalej „oddziałowymi komisjami”, 2) oddziałowe biura udostępniania i archiwizacji dokumentów, 3) oddziałowe biura edukacji publicznej, 4) oddziałowe biura lustracyjne. 3. W delegaturach mogą być tworzone wydziały udostępniania i

Rozdział 5a Funkcje lustracyjne Instytutu Pamięci Art. 52a. Do zadań Biura Lustracyjnego należy w szczególności: 1) prowadzenie rejestru oświadczeń lustracyjnych, o których mowa w art. 7 ustawy z dnia 18 października 2006 r. o ujawnianiu informacji o dokumentach organów bezpieczeństwa państwa z lat 1944-1990 oraz treści tych dokumentów, 2) analiza oświadczeń lustracyjnych oraz zbieranie informacji niezbędnych do prawidłowej ich oceny, 3) przygotowywanie postępowań lustracyjnych, 4) sygnalizowanie odpowiednim organom o niewywiązywaniu się organów pozasądowych z obowiązków nałożonych przez ustawę, 5) przygotowywanie i publikowanie katalogów zawierających dane osobowe osób, wobec których zachowały się dokumenty: a) wytworzone przez daną osobę lub przy jej udziale w związku z czynnościami wykonywanymi w charakterze tajnego informatora lub pomocnika przy operacyjnym zdobywaniu informacji, b) z których treści wynika, że dana osoba: - była traktowana przez organy bezpieczeństwa jako tajny informator lub pomocnik przy operacyjnym zdobywaniu informacji,

Piotrus, the Law on Institute of National Remembrance says that lustration functions are performed by IPN. I would translate it on English and publish on the article. If to speak about "jokes and censorship", your deletions of facts supported by current Polish legislation are ridiculous. Czesc. Vlad fedorov 08:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Translation of Polish legislation on Lustration functions of IPN is ready

Ale, kurde, po co ukrywac to?

According to the Chapter 5a of the Law of December 18, 1998 "On the Instutute of National Remembrance", Lustration bureau of the Instutute of National Remembrance performs the following Lustration functions:

1. maintains the register of lustration statements;
2. analyzes lustration statements and collects the information necessary for its correct assesment;
3. prepares procedure of lustration;
4. notifies respective bodies about non-perfomance by non-judicial bodies of obligations in accordance with this Law;
5. prepares and publishes catalogues containing personal data on individuals, against whom there are saved documents:

a) produced by this individual or with its participation in connection with its activities as a secret informator or assistant in operative colleting of information
b) from the content of which it follows that this individual was regarded by security services as a secret informator or assistant in operative colleting of information.

Current lustration by IPN is obligatory for 53 categories including all teachers, journalists, diplomats, ministers, members of parliament, public notaries, local government officials, judges, prosecutors, tax advisers, attorneys, all academics (pracownicy nauki i szkolnictwa wyzszego). Each year IPN issues 40 000 certificates for individuals confirming their status as individuals "which never cooperated with secret services". In January, 2005, the rightist journalist Bronislav Wildstein copied from IPN computer the list of 240 000 individuals and published it on the internet. . Vlad fedorov 10:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The link you provided is not working. Note that the original act you cite has no such provisions ([3]). Those provisions were added in Dec 2006 (live March 2007), per documents here. I think we can keep your translation of the relevant legal acts, thank you. However Ogonyok speculations are not reliable; for starters, how do they know IPN issues 40,000 certifiactes a year when they just started doing this last month is something I'd like to know... The categories should be verified with official documents, too. No need for foreign newspaper speculations when we have the original docs. And again, please leave speculations about Ministry of Truth out (as for censorship of "Czterej Pancerni i Pies", please provide more reliable source, I never heard of it.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

User Piotrus is not an ultimate judge of sources reliability. I would write what conforms to Wikipedia policies, not what conforms to user Piotrus. Vlad fedorov 18:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Ooo.. and you forgot about "a factory of national vengeance" by Italian La Stampa. Vlad fedorov 18:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I have added Lustration bureau to the structure of IPN

I would like to note that structure of IPN published on IPN website does include Lustration bureau see here http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/6/2262/. The direct page of Lustration bureau is http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal.php?serwis=pl&dzial=399&id=4961. I hope that text which was earlier in the article wasn't an example of WP:TEND or WP:OR. Vlad fedorov 10:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Polish and English pages of IPN website contain different information

Current English version of IPN website "About the Institute" page doesn't has Lustration Bureau, unlike its Polish version. Other pages may contain the information censored by IPN translators. Beware of this fact!!! Vlad fedorov 11:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"Censorship by IPN translators"? Vlad, please keep such bad faith speculations to yourself. It is a common occurence that websites of an organization in different languages will have different information, tailored to that organization image and amount of relations with that language; it is not suprising that lustration pages have not been translated yet; they are after all Poland's internal issue.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Again I would like to remind user Piotrus that reading of WP:AGF is very necessary for him. This text is not so complicated as Prawo Polskie or website of IPN. Vlad fedorov

Lustration of "Four tankmen and a dog"

Because some Polish readers are ignorant or deny the existence of this matter, I publish here Polish press:

http://www.trybuna.com.pl/n_show.php?code=2006040102

Zarzuty IPN dla gen. Jaruzelskiego

Śledztwo w sprawie wprowadzenia stanu wojennego IPN wszczął w październiku 2004 r. na wniosek związanego z Radiem Maryja egzotycznego Porozumienia Organizacji Kombatanckich i Niepodległościowych. Wcześniej ta struktura wsławiła się m.in. apelem do byłego prezydenta Aleksandra Kwaśniewskiego o rezygnację z przeprosin narodu żydowskiego w Jedwabnem, wezwaniem, by Żydzi przeprosili Polaków za zbrodnie stalinowskich funkcjonariuszy Urzędu Bezpieczeństwa pochodzenia żydowskiego i żądaniami zakazania wyświetlania w telewizji publicznej „Czterech pancernych i psa".

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:skyY9SvTPUAJ:www.trybuna.com.pl/n_show.php%3Fcode%3D2004110607+IPN+pancerni&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4

Do grobowej deski

W lutym br. skierowali do prezesa TVP Jana Dworaka protest przeciwko zapowiedziom emisji serialu „Czterej pancerni i pies". Ich zdaniem, serial „ogłupia społeczeństwo" i jest „wysoce wychowawczo szkodliwy". „Dopóki rządy w Telewizji Polskiej sprawowali ludzie pokroju Kwiatkowskiego, Czarzastego i Pacławskiego, trudno było prowadzić z nimi jakąkolwiek rzeczową polemikę, ponieważ ich zideologizowaną wizję historii najnowszej trwale ukształtowały przygody psa Szarika i podporucznika Borewicza" - pisali do Dworaka kombatanci z POKiN.

http://bohdankaras.blog.onet.pl/2,ID165734658,index.html

Inwkizycja i polityczny odwet zamiast pojednania. Niezadowolenie rośnie. Politycy majstrują przy prawie prasowym.

http://lewica.pl/?id=11253

TVP - Rewolucja kulturalna PiS

Wielu miłośnikom tych przygód będzie to musiało wystarczyć na długo. Starszy ode mnie o 2 lata kombatant z Krakowa, 51-letni rzecznik Porozumienia Organizacji Kombatanckich i Niepodległościowych, Jerzy Bukowski zapowiedział triumfalnie, że uzyskał wreszcie to, co chciał. Szef publicznej telewizji Bronisław Wildstein zapewnił ustami Daniela Jabłońskiego z biura rzecznika TVP, że „nie będą emitowane w najbliższych miesiącach seriale zakłamujące naszą przeszłość historyczną, m.in. »Czterej pancerni i pies« i »Stawka większa niż życie«”. Nie wiadomo, czy zaledwie kilka miesięcy obiecanej przerwy zadowoli Bukowskiego, ale wiadomo, że cieszy się on, przede wszystkim (cytuję za „Superekspressem”), ze „zwycięstwa nad Jankiem Kosem i jego załogą”. „Jest skandalem, że w największym medium niepodległej Rzeczypospolitej do znudzenia lansuje się kłamliwą wersję dziejów rodem spod ogona psa Szarika” – napisali w liście do kierownictwa telewizji publicznej krakowscy kombatanci, z uporem godnym lepszej sprawy zwalczający Klossa i załogę „Rudego”. Swoją drogą, na marginesie: to ciekawe, dlaczego „Czterej pancerni” budzą większą niechęć kombatantów z Krakowa, choć są emitowani znacznie rzadziej od „Stawki”?

http://www.trybuna.com.pl/n_show.php?code=2004110607

Katowicki oddział Instytutu Pamięci Narodowej wszczął śledztwo w sprawie wprowadzenia 13 grudnia 1981 r. w Polsce stanu wojennego. IPN przychylił się do wniosku związanego z Radiem Maryja egzotycznego Porozumienia Organizacji Kombatanckich i Niepodległościowych. Wcześniej ta struktura wsławiła się m.in. apelem do prezydenta Aleksandra Kwaśniewskiego o rezygnację z przeprosin narodu żydowskiego w Jedwabnem, wezwaniem, by Żydzi przeprosili Polaków za zbrodnie stalinowskich funkcjonariuszy Urzędu Bezpieczeństwa pochodzenia żydowskiego, żądaniami zakazania wyświetlania w telewizji publicznej „Czterech pancernych i psa", a także innych seriali z PRL. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vlad fedorov (talk • contribs) 16:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

You don't know Polish very well. Its not about IPN, but about veteran's organisation that is writing to the IPN. The organisation is called Porozumienie Organizacji Kombatanckich i Niepodległościowych, I don't think it is notable enough to have an article but you can try to write it of course. It isn't even mentioned that they wrote to IPN about that, but that in the past made statements against showing of that Soviet propaganda movie.

Thank you for your abusive comments on my personality (i really appreciate this edit of yours) but just read the last source: "IPN przychylił się do wniosku związanego z Radiem Maryja egzotycznego Porozumienia Organizacji Kombatanckich i Niepodległościowych"... "żądaniami zakazania wyświetlania w telewizji publicznej „Czterech pancernych i psa". I perfectly know what I am talking about. Moreover, there are lots of Russian sources on TV prohibition of this serial on Polish TV. Czesc. Vlad fedorov 16:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

There are no abusive comments other than yours here, Vlad. "Przychyli sie do wniosku..." can be translated as "Supported the petition..."; certainly this does not support your claim that "IPN censored the TV" - but it indeed supports the idea that your translations, particulary from Polish, are not very reliable.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

And the petition was about Martial Law not the movie.--MarekZob 17:48, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

e this [4] edit" I forgot to add something to the word and corrected it, what's the problem ? As to the rest: You are completely wrong because you are merging two different sentences that aren't connected to each other. It only says that IPN has decided to take favourable stance regarding the organisation's demand for invistigation into martial law. It isn't about the series. Please don't spread false information. The article first writes about how IPN responded to one matter, then describes the organisation that made the case to IPN. You would be well advised to use more neutral sources though-Rzeczpospolita is fairly neutral-Trybuna is a radical left-wing newspaper by post-communists. "Thank you for your abusive comments on my personality" Where ? I never commented your personality, however you insulted Polish users "Because some Polish readers are ignorant or deny the existence of this matter". Ironic-considering it showed somebody ignorant in language he uses ;)

Dear anon - please consider registering.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Done. Been before, but forgot password. --MarekZob 17:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Lustration in post-communist countries

Lustration was made in Czech Republic and Germany. Was lustration done by Russia or Belarus ? Article now claims "most countries" from former Soviet block have done so. If Russia and Belarus hadn't then it put Poland in the same group unlike Germany and Czechs who got rid of people representing Soviet interests in the country. It should be mentioned--MarekZob 19:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

It is certainly biased Original research introduced with the aim to acquit Polish legislation. There are three countries having lustration - Poland, Czechia and Germany. There is certainly no lustration in Belarus, Ukraine or Russian Federation. I could tell it as a lawyer. Vlad fedorov 19:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Please read this academic article used as a reference. The scope of lustration laws varies from country to country, but even Russia has adopted some related legislation; the article notes that only Central Asian Republic and Belarus had no lustration laws at all (as of 1996). Several is acceptable. Vlad's bad faith accusations are not.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Would you ever mind WP:AGF, Piotrus? Could you site me reliable Russian sources on lustration, as you asked me for sources on Poland? If you couldn't do so, please stop spamming the page by irrelvant texts produced by trans-atlantic countries and presenting amercian biased understanding of what the law is. We've seen it more in Iraq... Vlad fedorov 19:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I am AGF. You are not, with almost every one of your statements having an accusation like "biased Original research introduced with the aim to acquit Polish legislation" or "spamming the page by irrelvant texts produced by trans-atlantic countries and presenting amercian biased understanding of what the law is". Like it or not, article published in academic journal like Law and Contemporary Problems is much more reliable then your claims from Ogonyok. On that note, Irpen, I am looking forward to your discussion of Ogonyok "illustrated magazine" reliabilty... :) -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"However only in Poland lustration is used as a political instrument for internal and foreign politics." Foreign politics ? Please explain. --MarekZob 19:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Explain and reference that exact statement if you want us to take such claims seriously, Vlad. And lustration was criticized in many countries (see article above, see here for Czech one, German Vergangenheitsbewältigung...).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)