Talk:Kyiv/naming

Move This Page To "Kyiv"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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"Kyiv" is the correct spelling, as it is the latinized form of the Ukrainian name. "Kiev" comes from the Russian spelling, and it isn't even a proper latinized version of that, which is correctly latinized as "Kiyev". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vigilante Girl (talk • contribs) 17:46, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

We are writing in English, not Ukrainian or Russian, Romanized or not. In English it is spelled Kiev. --Khajidha (talk) 18:47, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

What Khajidha said. --Taivo (talk) 02:11, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

What they said. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:53, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

And the spelling has been changed to "Kyiv" in English, as well, at least in the US: https://www.kyivpost.com/world/kyiv-not-kiev-us-changes-spelling-of-ukrainian-capital.html I will make a seperate move request with this information. --Vigilante Girl (talk) 22:59, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

@Vigilante Girl: Have you even read all the prior evidence in the past 11 requested moves (plus countless non-formal requests like this)? The last formal move request was only 2 months ago and was overwhelmingly in favor of Kiev! Your user page says "I'm a girl who joined to help out Wikipedia by stopping fights" yet your initial heading and post was as if you've never checked out all the prior fights and snowball closes in favor of Kiev. Read them over and you'll understand the complexities involved. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:09, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

By stop "fights", I mean stop vandals and rude people. Reasonable debates and requests aren't "fights". And why should I check edits from the past when my evidence is recent and correct? And what do you mean by "non-formal requests"? Is my language somehow not formal enough for you? PS: Your condescending attitude is extremely rud. I do not appreciate being talked down to, and I will not stand for it. Do not think that everyone you meet, online or offline, will bow down to you. --Vigilante Girl (talk) 23:16, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

"And the spelling has been changed to "Kyiv" in English, as well, at least in the US". That only applies to the government itself, it has no bearing on general English usage. Why is this so hard for people to understand? NO government, not that of the US, nor that of the UK, and most especially not that of Ukraine can dictate common English usage. Kiev is still used at approximately twice the frequency of Kyiv judging by most web searches. And many of the uses of Kyiv come from sources within Ukraine itself or otherwise outside of the Anglosphere. Do you really mean to suggest that the usage of secondary speakers is of primary importance? The "correct" English spelling is whatever the bulk of native English speaking sources say it is. Whether that is derived from Ukrainian, from Russian, from Japanese, from Arabic, from Navaho, from Klingon, or just from random letters pulled from a bag of Scrabble tiles. And the usage found most often (to an overwhelming degree) is "Kiev". This "debate" is the furthest thing from "reasonable" I can possibly imagine. The evidence is clear. The English name is "Kiev".--Khajidha (talk) 23:35, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Formal requests would be a formal RfC or listed RM. This was more an informal request... that's what I meant. As far as checking past discussions, that would be a normal thing to do to make sure your aren't spinning your wheels with pretty much the same arguments. It did not appear to me you did any checking before your request, and now you have confirmed it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:16, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

And just a hint: KyivPost is not a reliable source for English language usage. It's a Ukrainian paper for English speakers, it's not even from the Anglosphere. --Taivo (talk) 06:15, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

And why should we not listen to the Ukrainians and change our common usage? It's their city, and they clearly have a problem with the incorrect English spelling. Calling Kyiv "Kiev" is almost as disrespectful to them as calling their country "the Ukraine". --Vigilante Girl (talk) 09:52, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Because the English-speaking world hasn't changed its common usage. It's Wikipedia's job to report facts, not to change them. This is an encyclopaedia, not a soapbox or a vehicle for change. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:11, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

@Khajidha: It's only unreasonable now since people started being rude and condescending. --Vigilante Girl (talk) 09:54, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

I can't see how anyone is being rude and condescending. They're merely pointing out that this has all been discussed before many times and nothing has changed. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:11, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Thousands of US newspapers use AP style guide, so...

• Since the original discussion on AP style guide's decision to switch to Kyiv has been archived before I had a chance to add additional information about its impact on US media landscape, I'm adding it here. As a reminder The AP's style rules are the default for many newsrooms and (...) is one of the most prominent English-language style and usage guides created by American journalists and is used by thousands of US national and local newspapers (this, e.g. AP Stylebook, was also mentioned numerous times in the past on this thread as a supporting claim FOR using the "Kiev [sic]" spelling in enwiki, for example on October 14, 2007 by User:Horlo and numerous other occations, search archive for more instances). For example in recent years such prominent English-language media had this warning in their Ukraine-related articles that they use AP Styleguide to spell Ukrainian capital:
  • NPR (which in itself is a collection of like 1,000+ local news media outlets): Note that NPR follows AP style. That's why we're using "Kiev" instead of "Kyiv" in this post. (picture version)
  • Bloomberg News (the editor-in-chief John Micklethwait recently clarified that spelling of cities is not part of their Style Guidebook "The Bloomberg Way" and that in these instances they just follow AP Style book; e.g., now Bloomberg News uses Kyiv spelling per AP Styleguide; this was previously also confirmed by the Writing standards Editor for Americas Jennifer Sondag in 2017, quote Sondag said there’s more flexibility and that Bloomberg will often default to AP Style if there isn’t a specific rule outlined in “The Bloomberg Way.”)

@Roman Spinner: asking for your advice, as one of the more academic scholarly voices on English Wikipedia when it comes to Ukraine-related topics.--Piznajko (talk) 20:08, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Your own source says that it "is one of", not "it is the only". A significant change, but not the slam dunk you want it to be. Searches still show an average of 2:1 usage in favor of Kiev in news stories with many of the Kyiv uses coming from Ukrainian based sources like Kyiv Post, Unian, and Ukrinform. --Khajidha (talk) 20:47, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

It's not about some random comment that "papers use the AP Style Guide". Prove it. Show that Anglosphere news media (which doesn't include Ukrainian news outlets that cater to English speakers) have switched to "Kyiv" and that English speakers have switched their searches to "Kyiv" over "Kiev". Your assertions and assumptions are meaningless. Only facts on the ground count. --Taivo (talk) 22:40, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

@Piznajko: It is all a matter of time — and consensus. Major world cities Mumbai and Kolkata are not a part of Western culture in the same manner as Kyiv, but have been equally ingrained in the English-speaking world's consciousness due to their contribution to the legend and lore of the British Raj. Although Indian government's announcements of the revision of Bombay and Calcutta's English transliteration came in the late 1990s and early 2000s, after Ukrainian government's announcements regarding the English transliteration of Kyiv and Odesa, there was less opposition to the change of Indian names and the AP Stylebook took less time to revise its listing of those names. Now, finally, AP has taken the leap, at least for Kyiv, and all the other stylebooks are expected to follow — sooner rather than later — as the stylebooks followed regarding the Indian names — and as Wikipedia followed. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:22, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

I am in agreement with User:Roman Spinner. Wikipedia is not proactive, but reactive. We don't predict the future or drive opinion, we simply reflect changes after they happen, not before. Kiev might soon change to Kiev in English. Odessa, on the other hand, will probably never change because of the many placenames in the Anglosphere that are spelled Odessa and will not change. --Taivo (talk) 00:19, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Wait... there is now an issue with Odessa? Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:19, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Freudian slip Kiev [sic] might soon change to Kiev [sic] in English.--Piznajko (talk) 01:17, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

I'd say it was just proof that for most English speakers "Kiev" is the normal name. It takes effort for us to even type "Kyiv" in these discussions. "Kiev", however, flows readily. Showing that it is not a "transliteration" or a "Russian name" but a true English exonym. --Khajidha (talk) 01:55, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

I think everyone live in his or her own "bubble" (which also includes "linguistic bubble"), cause I'm also a native speaker of English and Kyiv is as natural to me as 4am tweets are to Trump.--Piznajko (talk) 05:58, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

And your Ukrainian username clearly shows that you are of Ukrainian ancestry ;) --Taivo (talk) 07:27, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Since this discussion is about Kyiv and not about Odesa, I will only comment that in the English-speaking world, the numerous places bearing the name "Odessa" or, for that matter, Kief, North Dakota; Danzig, North Dakota; Breslau, Texas or Konigsberg, California, were named over a hundred years ago, before World War I or the Russian Revolution and before standardization of transliteration and the widespread introduction of stylebooks. Thus, the multiple Odessa place names in the English-speaking world have no more influence upon Ukraine's Odesa than St. Petersburg, Florida has upon Saint Petersburg. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 19:13, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

@Roman Spinner: just learned that NPR's VP of Standards Mark Memmott issued a statement today regarding spelling of Kyiv for NPR affiliated media outlets (~1000+ in the US, see the full list of NPR media outlets here; FYI they all also have their own local website (in addition to the central npr.org), so the Kyiv spelling is now used not only on npr.org, but on 1000+ local US media outlets's websites): New NPR Guidance: The Capital Of Ukraine Is Spelled 'Kyiv'.

p.s. Regarding Bloomberg, a similar public statement is expected shortly from their VP of Standards - please be patient.--Piznajko (talk) 01:07, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

@Piznajko: it was to be expected. Whether it might be called the snowball effect or the floodgates opening, in the age of the Internet, changes happen faster than in the days of printed and revised stylebook editions when one stylebook's acceptance of the forms Beijing, Mumbai and Kolkata caused other stylebooks to alter their subsequent printings. Recent political events may well be playing a role in the accelerated pace, but the term "sooner rather than later" does appear to finally ring true for Kyiv. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 03:06, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

@Roman Spinner: I agree, the term "sooner rather than later" does indeed appear to finally ring true for Kyiv.

Also, forgot to mention a few less influential institutions recently changed their spelling to Kyiv:

• The Library of Congress switched its spelling to Kyiv: The Library of Congress corrected the spelling of the name of the Ukrainian capital (Sep 17, 2019)
• A few international airports (not listing them all here: but for instance Toronto Pearson Airport (on March 31, 2019) as well as Prague International Airport (Sep 14, 2019). In total there are are now close to 60 capitals around the world whose international airport now spell Kyiv correctly (you can see some of the airports that use correct Kyiv spelling on the Google Maps (created and updated by @tsn.ua, unfortunately doesn't get updated very often; hence, it's missing ~20 of the newest airports): https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1_e1r1xub6Q0SswJ6xrxzhhijowAw-kK6&usp=sharing )--Piznajko (talk) 03:13, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

@Piznajko: the progress of acceptance is indeed growing by the day. Your detailed gathering of all the links is much appreciated. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 03:35, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Please cease using the term "corrected". Nothing is being "corrected". "Kiev" is and has been for over a century the correct spelling of Ukraine's capital in English. The spelling may be "changing", but it is not being "corrected". Get it straight. --Taivo (talk) 04:11, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm merely using the terms that the sources use.--Piznajko (talk) 00:26, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

And how many of those sources are Ukrainian based or are specifically advocating for the change? Most of the ones I've checked from your posts are extremely biased sources of that nature. --Khajidha (talk) 00:34, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Only Ukrainian sources, whose writers are not native speakers of English, misuse the term "corrected". Does the AP Style Guide use the term "corrected"? Of course not. "Kiev" is and always has been a correct English toponym. It is being replaced by "Kyiv". It is not "being corrected" because it was never wrong. --Taivo (talk) 03:21, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Here in the US there is a current scandal involving Trump, Biden, and Ukraine. People are talking about Ukraine and its capital more than they have in several years. If this change is occurring, I shoiuld be seeing lots and lots of uses of "Kyiv". Doing news searches for "Kiev" and "Kyiv" in the past week I find:

Using "Kiev": Philadelphia Inquirer, Washington Post, Roll Call, Connecticut Post, Newsweek, Business Insider, Reuters, and CounterPunch, all in the first page of results, along with a couple of sources from outside the Anglosphere

Using "Kyiv": NPR, a specific NPR station repeating the NPR position on name usage, Kyiv Post (x7), and UNIAN.

Given that, you tell me what English speakers are using. --Khajidha (talk) 11:43, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

PS - of special note is that the Washington Post had published an AP story last week using "Kyiv", but has since published its own story using "Kiev". --Khajidha (talk) 12:37, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Old exonyms die hard. During President Nixon's February 1972 visit to China, various media outlets were still using the form "Peking", while others were alternating between "Peking" and "Beijing" along with explanations to readers about the unfamiliar name. Wikipedia's own entries for Mumbai (May 20, 2001) and Kolkata (February 25, 2002) started out as Bombay and Calcutta and had discussions during the early 2000s in which users insisted that "Bombay" and "Calcutta" were still the more-widely used names, even in India. By 2004, however, all such disputes appear to have ceased. Likewise, over the next couple of years, there will still be inevitable "Kiev" holdouts and "Kyiv" resisters, but the inevitable tide will prevail, no doubt accelerated by ongoing events. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 13:50, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

This is the same POV that we have seen since 2004. "Kiev" is not an "old exonym" in English. It is the current exonym. It is not an "incorrect" exonym in English. It is the correct exonym. This recurrent POV mistakes the Ukrainian language for English. We're talking English on the English Wikipedia, not Ukrainian. And the evidence that User:Khajidha presents above, that news media today in the US is overwhelmingly using "Kiev" is pretty clear. Yes, some day the English exonym may change, but that day is not this day. --Taivo (talk) 21:52, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Current general searches (not specifically news searches) are running ~210 million using Kiev to ~61 million Kyiv. This is the greatest discrepancy (roughly 3.5:1) that I have seen in the last several weeks, and it is in favor of the established spelling. --Khajidha (talk) 16:34, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Khajidha/Taivo I tried to reproduce the claim made by Khajidha above that over the past week only Ukrainian media were using Kyiv spelling and was not able to reproduce that. On the contrary, using Google News search (with locatino settings as USA, and language settings as English) produces:

• Kyiv spelling within the last week (7 days) Google news search, last week Kyiv
  • All articles wihtin the last week on NPR on Trump/Zelensky used Kyiv (example from NPR, example from NPR member station, another NPR member station etc.)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on Bloomberg News on Trump/Zelensky used Kyiv (example etc.)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on bne IntelliNews on Trump/Zelensky used Kyiv (example etc.)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on Associated Press on Trump/Zelensky used Kyiv (example etc.)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on Daily Beast on Trump/Zelensky used Kyiv (example, another example etc.)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on The Guardian on Trump/Zelensky used Kyiv (example etc.)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on NBC News on Trump/Zelensky used Kyiv (example etc.)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on Foreign Policy on Trump/Zelensky used Kyiv (example, another example etc.)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on ABC News on Trump/Zelensky used Kyiv (example etc.)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on The Salt Lake Tribune on Trump/Zelensky used Kyiv (example etc.)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on Voice of America and Radio Free Liberty on Trump/Zelensky used Kyiv (example VofA, example RFERL etc.)
  • As well as quote-on-quote 'foreign' media such as Kyiv Post, Unian, and Ukrinform (as mentioned above)

• Kiev spelling within the last week (7 days) Google news search, last week Kiev
  • All articles wihtin the last week on The Washington Post on Trump/Zelensky used Kiev (example)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on Newsweek on Trump/Zelensky used Kiev (example)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on The New York Times on Trump/Zelensky used Kiev (example)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on USA Today on Trump/Zelensky used Kiev (example)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on Reuters on Trump/Zelensky used Kiev (example)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on Financial Times on Trump/Zelensky used Kiev (example)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on Politico on Trump/Zelensky used Kiev (example)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on The Atlantic on Trump/Zelensky used Kiev (example)
  • All articles wihtin the last week on Time Magazine on Trump/Zelensky used Kiev (example)
  • So-called big dog "commercial news", e.g., Fox News, CNN, Sky News,
  • As well as quote-on-quote 'foreign' media such as Russia Today, Sputnik news international, TASS, Haaretz, Euronews, France 24

In general, it now seems (since AP Style Guidebook adopted Kyiv spelling) that Kyiv is getting more an more prevailing as the spelling of choice for Ukraine's capital in US media's newsrooms as of the last few days. And I want to point out the elephant in the room: the only reason Reuters, BBC News, The Economist, The Telegraph, Financial Times, BuzzFeed, The Washington Post, The New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and USA Today do not currently use Kyiv spelling is that they are one of the very few US/British news media who have their own Style Guidebooks (e.g., "the big boys" like to make their own rules, e.g., they have their own Style Guidebooks, rather than use AP Styleguide). However, everyone in the US news community knows that "most newspapers (...) use the Associated Press's stylebook .--Piznajko (talk) 01:20, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

@Roman Spinner: also want to make sure you're aware of this recent update in US/UK news organization treatment of Kyiv spelling that was outline above.--Piznajko (talk) 01:35, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

So, to summarize, one style guide for American (not British) media uses "Kyiv". All the others use "Kiev", including the style guides for the most prestigious and influential papers in the US and Britain. --Taivo (talk) 02:57, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

That is not the conclusion i would make: at least 2 style guides (1 in the UK: The Guardian and Observer Style guide; and 1 in teh US: AP Style guide) changed to Kyiv spelling in the last few months. However, the relative importance of AP Style book is 99 to 1, e.g., AP Style book's used by 99.9% of all English media outlets worldwide, with only a few 'select' large UK/US media outlets having their own Style books (which are however used soley by their own publication, e.g., AP Style book is unique in that it's used by others).--Piznajko (talk) 03:04, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

In the end, when you look at what English speakers are actually searching for, it's "Kiev" by a wide margin. In other words, the media may be using "Kyiv" more than they used to (it's still questionable whether it's even half, let alone a majority), but English speakers are switching very slowly, if at all. --Taivo (talk) 04:02, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

WP:NCPLACE emphasises that it primarieis looks at "what ap place is called"; it does not give highest weight to what "English speakers search online": usage in English-languge media is equally if not more important for consideraton of what a place "is called" and Kyiv now (thanks to AP Style update) is becoming a prevalent method of spelling Ukraine's capital in English.--Piznajko (talk) 05:22, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

@Piznajko: Kudos for your tireless efforts in gathering the hard evidence needed for consensus. If I was not previously aware of the recent update, I am certainly aware of it now. The form "Kyiv" has finally achieved an inexorable momentum which makes the transition within the other stylebooks an inevitability. Old exonyms do indeed die hard and various English speakers had continued to use old forms, Peking, Bombay and Calcutta, insisting that those were not "old" forms, but continued to be currently used.

By now, however, such resisters have largely disappeared as will resisters to "Kyiv" once the other stylebooks come around, probably within less than a year. At that point, English speakers searching for "Kiev" will discover that they were actually searching for what is the current city of "Kyiv" in the same manner as those who may still be searching for the present-day capital of China, Peking, would discover that the object of their search is referenced by the English form "Beijing". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 06:13, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Let's actually look at some numbers instead of Piznajko's cherry-picked list:

• Search for "Kyiv -Kiev -AP trump zelensky": 81,000. Why -AP? To remove the variable of a single article simply being copied and pasted without editing looking like all the copies are creations. But even without -AP, the results are 91,400
• Search for "Kiev -Kyiv -AP trump zelensky": 189,000. Without -AP the results are 278,000.

Using Piznajko's time and news restrictions above, to just the last week, "Kyiv" = 3870 results, "Kiev" = 41,300 results. --Taivo (talk) 07:34, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

So now let's compare Kiev/Kyiv's numbers (41,300/3870) with Bombay/Mumbai's numbers (1,510,000/5,080,000), Peking/Beijing's numbers (1,980,000/8,510,000), and Calcutta/Kolkota's numbers (156,000/4,160,000). In other words, the "winners" are clearly "Kiev", "Mumbai", "Beijing", and "Kolkota" over the last week. (The Kiev/Kyiv searches included "Trump" and "Zelensky" in the search criteria and the others did not, of course.) --Taivo (talk) 08:09, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

"it does not give highest weight to what "English speakers search online"" It doesn't say that because it is implicit in the guideline that we use English to write in. Non-native speakers cannot set the norms for English usage. That's just how languages work. Just as when you borrow someone's car you don't get to decide that it would be better with glasspacks and racing stripes, so too when you borrow someone else's language you don't get to decide that it should use or not use certain words. --Khajidha (talk) 10:19, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

And it's also important to remember that the results for Google News searches that both I and Piznajko made above aren't searches by English speakers, but the pages that came back based on asking the questions. It's what has been placed out there by English language media sources for English speakers to read during the last seven days. So it's a clear indication that English language media is still solidly in the "Kiev" camp. It may be changing, but Piznajko's and Roman Spinner's insistence that the change in the AP Style Guide is overwhelming is an exaggeration. During the last week, Anglophone news media put "Kiev" out there to read ten times more often than they put "Kyiv". --Taivo (talk) 13:34, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Taivo, your own methodology disapproves your claim that "During the last week, Anglophone news media put "Kiev" out there to read ten times more often than they put "Kyiv"" - on the contrary search kiev -kyiv trump zelensky ( http://google.com/search?q=kiev -kyiv trump zelensky ) produces 419 000 results, whereas kyiv -kiev trump zelensky ( http://google.com/search?q=kyiv -kiev trump zelensky ) produces 196 000 results (the whole include/exclude AP in search result is murky and should be avoided). In other words your own methodology produces only 1 to 2 in favor of Kyiv vs. Kiev (and nothing close to x10 claimed by your above).--Piznajko (talk) 20:32, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

I just tried exactly the same searches (more exactly, pasted the above urls to my browser). The first one produces for me 297 000 results, whereas the second one produces 80 results, which is approximately 3000:1 ratio.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:40, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Ymblanter the answer lies in your Google search settings (the # of results will also depend on your location and language settings); however, while the exact number of search results will differ by individual (and will also differ for the same individual when performed on different days/times), the general ratio of results should still be the same. Ymblanter, please look for preferences in your Google search - your search results #'s for Kyiv seem way wrong.

@Roman Spinner: please add anything I might've missed in my clarification to Ymblanter above.--Piznajko (talk) 21:36, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Or may be your search results are way wrong. I believe 3000:1 is much closer to reality than 2:1. I am sure though Roman Spinner will find a way to explain us for the 1000th time that all English speakers will embrace the "correct" spelling Kyiv pretty soon, following the trend set by Miami Herald.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:53, 28 September 2019 (UTC)