Talk:Persian language

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Archive 1

nomenclature section

Someone had put a suggested merge template at the start of the nomenclature section suggesting that The announcement of the Academy of Persian Language and Literature be merged into this section. There doesn't seem to have been any discussion of that on this talk page and neither on the other one (where it isn't even mentioned) and where it is instead suggested that that article be merged into Academy of Persian Language and Literature which, to me, seems like a more appropriate place for it to go. I've deleted the merge template on this page and put a link to the article in instead as it is relevant. I'm not trying to be troublesome, I can see there's a lot of debate about this nomenclature issue, but I've not actually changed the body of the text. Hope that all makes sense and sounds okay. Iancaddy 23:36, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if I sound abrupt, this is not the idea, but I honestly feel the benefit of that admin would be microscopic? Isn't there anywhere you could spend your time adding more value in wikipedia? I thought the article was just great this way. thanks --GeeeFlat 10:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It is Semitic Such a change would be no greater than that of other ancient nations, such as the ancient Persians, who, though of Indo-European (Japhetic) stock, later adopted the Semitic Aramaean language and writing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.211.144 (talk) 07:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Referencing

I tried replacing the lengthy synatxful "harvard referencing" code at the bottom of the article with a much shorter html version. However I cant locate where Mace, Schmit, and Windfur are used in the text. So the replacement was incomplete. The person who introduced those references into the article must do this, since he/she knows best where the references are referring to, if at all.

Somebody please tend to this matter. The referencing version I introduced is much better since one can click from the reference listing back to the text in the article directly, whereas the harvard system cant do that.--Zereshk 00:39, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll check the history of the page to find out who added them, and perhaps we could contact the user. —Khoikhoi 00:42, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, as for Mace & Windfur, the two along with Mahootian were added by an anon two years ago as a Bibliography. (edit) So I'm not so sure if it's for the text in the article or not. ("References" could also be simply a list of external links that are books) As for Schmit, still looking... —Khoikhoi 00:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

See this, this, and this. —Khoikhoi 00:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I moved the unreferenced references to a 'Further reading' section. I guess if we find a way to incorporate them into (actual) references, great. --jonsafari 04:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Alphabetical

EDITORS: Please list the countries Alphabetical - A-Z, not Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan.

Diasystem?

Please notice the discussion at Talk:Diasystem.

Is it linguistically correct to say that Dari is a part of the Persian diasystem? --Amir E. Aharoni 09:41, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Map is original research

All,

The Map Image:Moderniranianlanguagesmap21.PNG which has been presented in this article as fact, is an original research work by User:Imperial78. It needs to be specified that the map is not necessarily objective, and is instead a user-created illustration.--Zereshk 02:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Number of Speakers

I don't understand where the figure for 61 million native speakers comes from? could it please be referenced and sourced because according to CIA Persians are 51% of Iran meaning Persian would have no more than 30 million Native speakers in Iran.

And ethnologue 3

55$Insertformulahere$ Farsi, Western [pes] 22,000,000 in Iran (1997).

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=Iran

--Johnstevens5 03:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Persian_language/Archive_1#Number_of_native_speakers_of_Persian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Persian_language/Archive_1#Another_source_for_Persian

--jonsafari 21:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Persian in Tajikstan

Persian in Tajikstan is official but not shown in the map. It should be in dark green. Wirya 18:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Help with translation

I'm currently working on a script intended to create short articles on political parties on a variety of wikipedias simultaneously. However, in order for the technique to work I need help with translations to various languages. If you know any of the languages listed at User:Soman/Lang-Help, then please help by filling in the blanks. For example I need help with Farsi. Thanks, --Soman 15:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

ISO/FDIS 639-3

The infobox states that the English names for ISO/FDIS 639-3 'prs' and 'pes' are Eastern Persian and Western Persian. This is not what the standard actually is. Whether or not a prescriptivist notion states that the terms 'Eastern Farsi' and 'Western Farsi' are incorrect as the oft-cited [1] insists, the current article misrepresents ISO 639-3. I am not in the 'Farsi' camp. I am not in the 'Persian' camp. I simply think it's not a good thing to misrepresent what the ISO 639-3 says. This would be like stating that U+06CC is called 'ARABIC LETTER PERSIAN YEH'. It may not be popular, but that's what it's called in that particular standard. Either we can remove the ISO 639-3 section in the article to avoid saying Farsi, or we can accurately state what ISO 639-3 says. I'm fine with either way. –jonsafari 19:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

• I should say I agree with you Jonsafari that it is not a good idea to misrepresent ISO, though I am in PERSIAN camp. -DrMoslehi 17:52, 9 August 2006 (UTC+3:30)
  • Actually, ISO 639-3 doesn't say anything yet because it doesn't exist. The Wikipedia page is jumping the gun a little bit. The only standard that currently exists is ISO 639-2, and it has "Persian" as the English name. See [2]. I don't really care enough to start an edit war over this, but I thought I'd point out the relevant facts here anyway, in case anybody else cares. --Wclark 06:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I wonder how widespsread the benefit of ISO referencing to the mainstream public is, which is the essential target group of wikipedia. The added value of that section is awfully limited, and just helps ISO commercially, but very few people care. I would estimate the proportion of the readers who care, or are understanting what ISO language referencing is at around 0.01% of the readers, therefore questioning whether this info is relevant, whether it is of wiki standards, and whether it helps readability Vs being a total digression. Also the international standrad ISO is mor NOT adopted than adopted by many around the world. Other than that the article is brilliant, though.--GeeeFlat 10:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Total Number of Persian Speakers

Iran

Here is up-to-date information from Joshua Project:Iran Population Breakdown by language. The data is recent and is based on UN estimate for 2006. According to this report, the following groups are the Persian-speaking people in Iran:

Persian 24,868,000 , Farsi, Western Persian, Dari 1,725,000 , Farsi, Eastern (Dari) Tajik, Tadzhik 61,000 , Tajiki Takistani 224,000 , Takestani ... UN Country Population (2006) 70,324,000

So, total persian speakers in Iran will be approximately 27,898,000 in 2007.

Afghanistan

Aimaq,Char 273,000 (Aimaq) Aimaq,Firozkohi 271,000 Aimaq, Hazara 211,000 Aimaq, Jamshidi 120,000 Aimaq, Taimani 541,000 Aimaq, Timuri 135,000 Hazara 2,572,000 (Hazaragi) Parsee 13,000 (Parsi-Dari) Persian 103,000 (Western Farsi) Persian, Dari 1,041,000 (Eastern Farsi) Tajik 7,149,000 (Tajiki Persian) Qizilbash 13,000 (Eastern Farsi)

... UN Country Population (2006) 31,082,000

So, total persian speakers in Afghanistan will be approximately 09,442,000 in 2006. Though there has never been an official sensus made in Afghanistan, after pashtoons 65% of the population, Tajiks make the second largest ethnic group in Afghanistan with an estimated 15% of the total population. The following link provides a very good insight about some of the unofficial sensus that has been made over the years in Afghanistan: http://www.hewad.com/ethnic.htm

                actually most pashtoons in afghanistan speak farsi as well so that would boost your persian speaking people in afghanistan up alittle bit :).

Tajikistan

Persian 79,000 (Western Farsi) Tajik 4,348,000 (Tajiki Persian)

... UN Country Population (2006) 6,591,000

So, total persian speakers in Tajikistan will be approximately 4,427,000 in 2006.

Uzbekistan

Persian 31,000 (Western Farsi) Tajik 1,293,000 (Tajiki)

... UN Country Population (2006) 26,980,000

So, total persian speakers in Uzbekistan will be approximately 1,324,000 in 2006.

Diaspora

United States Western Farsi 921,000 in 2006.

Turkey Western Farsi 832,000 in 2006.

Germany Western Farsi 110,000+ Eastern Farsi 120,000 total 230,000 in 2006.

United Arab Emirates Western Farsi 194,000 in 2006.

Canada Western Farsi 129,000 in 2006.

France Western Farsi 63,000.

Sweden Western Farsi 50,000.

UK Western Farsi 29,000.

Total diapora 2,448,000.

Approximate Total

25,818,000 + 12,442,000 + 4,427,000 + 1,324,000 + 2,448,000 =

Grand Total = 46,459,000 This is nowhere near 70 million. I think this data should be included as a lower bound. Heja Helweda 01:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Is Tajik classed as "Persian"? good sources Heja, where did the figures for 70 million native speakers arise from?

--Johnstevens5 17:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Joshua factbook is not an accurate source and the UN estimate is only a total population estimate. Just to show this, in the joshua estimate we have four separte category for Kurds:Kurd, Central 702,000 1.00 % Y 1.2 Islam Kurdish, Central

Kurd, Iranian 4,210,000 0.03 % Y 1.2 Islam Kurdish, Southern Kurd, Northern 204,000 0.00 % 0.00 % Y 1.1 Islam Kurdish, Northern Kurdi, Southern 3,061,000 Then when you click on Kurd Iranian, you have the same Kurdi , Southern!

According to CIA factbook source 51% of Iran speaks Persian (CIA factbook) as a native language and according to Encyclopedia of Encarta it is about 60%. Which would make 35-42 million. Considering the CIA factbook on Afghanistan 50% this would make 15.5 million, so that is 50.5-57.5 million between Iran and Afghanistan according to two sources. The population of Tajikistan is about 80% Tajik (CIA factbook) and has a population of over 7 million and that is then 5.6 million so this would make that is 56-63 million, there are approximately 3 million Afghan refugees in Pakistan and two million in Iran which is probably not part of the population figure of CIA factbook, and also large number of Tajiks in Uzbekistan(estimates vary from 5-10% to as much as 30%) and Russia (estimated to be 1 million Tajiks) as well as large number of Iranians, Afghans and Tajiks spread around the world. So this is easily 60-70 million. And this is a low end estimate, as many people are now native Persian speakers in Iran (for example Tehran) while their parents might not have been. --alidoostzadeh 17:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

For those listing figures from Joshua Project (a Christian database), please see WP:RS. It does not meet the criteria of a reliable source. DragonRouge 21:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

distinguishing vowel lengths

This article says: "Historically, Persian distinguished length: the long vowels /iː/, /uː/, /ɒː/ contrasting with the short vowels /e/, /o/, /æ/ respectively. Modern spoken Persian, however, generally does not make this distinction anymore." Well, I've never been to Iran, but my Persian teacher very much insists on distinguishing long over short vowels... Is she nitpicking or is the quoted claim incorrect? --Dijxtra 09:53, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

In what way does your Persian teacher tell you to distinguish short vs. long vowels? Obviously there's an orthographic distinction (written vs. generally non-written), and poetry often makes this distinction in meter, but otherwise I'm not aware of a phonemic difference in modern spoken Iranian Persian. –jonsafari 17:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

For instance, in verb "to have" (I don't know how to transliterate, but I guess it would be something like "dashtan") there is diference in pronouncing first and second "a". Now, it might be she does that because she wan't us to remember that orthographic distinction...

BTW, is there a piece of software which make it possible for a user with latin keyboard to write in persian alphabet? --Dijxtra 15:01, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, another Persian learner! :-) I can't answer your question about the vowels, though. But about the keyboards, if you're using Windows, you can just load an additional Windows keyboard driver, they are all part of the standard Windows installation. Or, if you don't like the key layout as it comes for Persian, you can even roll your own, there's a thing called Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator you can download. FellFairy 15:26, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but then I have to gues which key is which. I'd like some kind of program which gives me a bunch of buttons labeled with arabic graphemes and a space bar, and then I click on those to get myself a sentence :-) --Dijxtra 23:00, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding your first question of the two a's in dashtan, they are more distinguished by location in the mouth than by length (timewise). This is similar to the various a's in English (eg. apple vs. father). That is, they are all very different sounds, and phonemically are not distinguished by length. A language that truly distinguishes vowels by length is, e.g. Japanese. Thus the Japanese words tsuki "moon" and tsūki "airflow" are pronounced the exact same (AFAIK), except that the 'u' in the second word is pronounced longer timewise than the first. It's good to think of the two Persian a's, as in dashtan, as competely separate, unrelated sounds, like 'i' and 'u'. This will make learning new words easier to remember.

Regarding your second question of typing Persian using a Latin keyboard, you might checkout this old site I wrote, with the latin 1:1 transliteration scheme listed below. –jonsafari 01:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

You can easily access this online editor to type in Persian from almost any computer. If you must use a virtual keyboard, Postchi has such a service. But, it uses Arabic ي and ك instead of Persian ی and ک. Kaveh 03:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

"osk.exe" is your friend. It's a visual keyboard thing that comes with Windows, and a link to it is usually installed under Accessories-Accessibility or some such. And for MS Office programs you can also download "MS Visual Keyboard". Both can be used together with any built-in Keyboard driver. FellFairy 08:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey um well sometimes short and long vowels can make different meanings from one word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.165.16.39 (talk) 07:27, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

About the two A's,in "dashtan",the first one is a long a [a as in article],and the second a is short,[a as in cat] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shahrzad hbk (talk • contribs) 07:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Persian and Farsi

I really don't know why people make so much fuss about "Persian" versus "Farsi". Anyway, I think I once saw some information about when that "Farsi" name actually entered English. It was recent (like, 20th century), but not as recent as the article implies (after 1979). Must have been in one of those huge dictionaries from Oxford, don't remember exactly. I'll try and dig it out, okay? FellFairy 10:34, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

To Mardavich, re. your edit summary [3]("rv unverifiable source, my oxford dictionary has no such description, the current wording is correct, Farsi came to popular use AFTER 1979"): it's not "your" or "my" Oxford dictionary or some dictionary from Oxford. It's "the" Oxford English Dictionary. And it's the most authoritative source on the history of the English language there is. I'll give full quotes if necessary. FellFairy 10:17, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Mardavich reverted again, I think he would like to see a quote. Thanks :) - Francis Tyers · 10:26, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, here goes. Just to make it clear again, this is from the online version of the big OED, not some other dictionary made by Oxford UP. Article on "Farsi", obviously. Attestations, ordered by year:

• 1878 "The transition from the ancient to the modern Persian is formed by the Parsee, or, as the Arabs call it, Farsi," (Chambers's Encycl.)
• 1926 "The present or modern Persian (which is invariably called Farsi by the modern Persians)." (Chambers's Encycl.)
• 1951 "In the old province of Fars, where Farsi (or Parsi), the language of Persia, originated." (N.B. Jopson, Persian Language)
• 1962 "Persian, or Farsi, the language of Iran, [...]" (Whittaker's Almanack)
• 1979 "One of the aides is the Press Secretary, who presents Farsi translations..of British Press reports." (Observer)
• 1980 "The disgusting state of the walls of the London Underground stations, defaced by slogans in Farsee or Arabic characters." (Times Lit. Suppl.)
• 1984 "It may still not be too late to put an end to the grotesque affectation of applying the name ‘Farsi’ to the language which for more than five hundred years has been known to English-speakers as Persian." (Bull. of the British Soc. of Middle Eastern Studies)

(From the Oxford English Dictionary, Full Version. 2005.)

Note: I discounted the first two, because here the authors were not themselves using the word but quoted it as a local usage. But in the examples from 1951 onwards, it's English-speaking authors simply using the name. Interesting is of course the last one, documenting the annoyance about the "affectation" of the name, which I mentioned in my edit. FellFairy 10:32, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The name "Farsi" was used by the US government to identify the language when training Peace Corps volunteers at least by 1973. Also, Wikipedia:Redirect recommends that alternate names used as inbound redirects should be listed in the first paragraph or two, so that the redirected reader is not confused. Do you think the placement of "Farsi "and "Parsi" at the top of the infobox is sufficient? --Blainster 18:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Persian or Farsi

Here http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4071&PN=1 [Specific Languages: Persian or Farsi] there has been a hot discussion about it. Some people say that it has nothing to do with the Academy of Persian language how we call it in English.

What's your opinion? If you have anything to write please don't deny.

I don't think anyone has ever said that it's not called Farsi in Persian. The fact of the matter is, we have German language, not Deutsche Sprache, we have French language, not Langue française... We have Spanish language, not Idioma castellano; Hebrew language, not עברית (nor `Ivrith, although I see someone did make עברית into a redirect...); Japanese language, not 日本語 (nor Nihhongo, and again, 日本語 is only a redirect); and Russian language, not Русский язык (nor Russkij jazyk). What is so special about Persian that it deserves to be listed as Farsi instead of as Persian? Tomer^talk 07:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's one big difference between the "German"/"Deutsch" case and the "Persian"/"Farsi" case, isn't there? Nobody does in fact use "Deutsch" in English. But people do use "Farsi" in English. Some people don't like to hear it. But other people use it, and that's a fact. So, "Farsi", whether we like it or not, is now a name in English, while "Deutsch" is not. And it's in the dictionaries of English too. I'm not saying we should treat it as the main or preferred name, of course. But isn't Wikipedia all about observing what's actually done out there in the real world, not about prescribing what should be done? FellFairy 07:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Certainly, but Persian is used in academic contexts way more than Farsi (for better or worse). And TShilo2's examples are wrong, I don't think anyone is advocating Zaboni farsi. It would be good to have an article on Iranian Persian though. - Francis Tyers · 08:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Academy of Persian language is the ultimate authority on this matter and they have made their position very clear. Farsi is a new phenomena in common usage in English, Persian is the correct name for the language in English. --Mardavich 10:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Where did I say anything to the contrary? I'm not sure what an ultimate authority is, but it sounds kind of scary! :) - Francis Tyers · 10:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

According WP:VERIFY, the burdon of proof is on the user who makes an edit and attributes it to a source. I have the latest full version of Oxford dictionary in front of me, and there is no mention of Farsi's origins in English language. Please verify this claim before before adding it to the article. --Mardavich 10:27, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you give me the full reference citation for the edition you have before yourself? - Francis Tyers · 10:29, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

If you don't have the quotation above, perhaps you should contact Oxford University Press for a refund! :) You know, mistakes can happen ;) - Francis Tyers · 10:34, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm telling you that I have the latest full version of Oxford dictionary , and you tell me "it can be verified. Perhaps you should go to the library and check?". Have you checked it? If it can be verified, then why don't you go ahead and verify it here by posting a screen shot. --Mardavich 10:36, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Please see above for a quote from the OED. - Francis Tyers · 10:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

You can scroll up by using the bar on your right (or left) or alternatively using the scroll wheel (if your mouse is equipt with one). Alternatively click here. - Francis Tyers · 10:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Above where? The OED quotes you're citing have nothing to do with the origins of the word Farsi in English and when it entered the language. Please don't ignore the question, If the Oxford claim can be verified, you are so sure that it can be verified, then why don't you provide us with a screen shot? --Mardavich 10:47, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure you are familiar with the Oxford English Dictionary, Mardy my man, that is a list of usages ordered by the year. And thus! lo! it is how the history of the word in the English language is presented to users of the runcible, r'honourable, ruminant dictionary! (ok, maybe I was going a bit over the top with ruminant). - Francis Tyers · 10:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Please don't play with words. You know perfectly well what my problem is. I'm not disputing Oxford, I'm disputing what's being attributed to Oxford Dictionary with no direct quote, link or anything verifiable. --Mardavich 10:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's the screenshot. [4]. Now, Mardavich, please do give us the full title and ISBN of the book on your desk that you thought was the OED. Not everything that has the words "Oxford", "English" and "dictionary" printed on its cover is the OED, you know. There are several works with very similar titles, but completely different content. FellFairy 11:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Now now Fells, don't lets be beastly to the chap! I'm sure it was an honest mistake :) - Francis Tyers · 12:02, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Now where in your screenshot does it say "Farsi was borrowed into English as an alternative form beginning in the mid-20th century and became commonplace in English-speaking countries" which is what you're attributing to Oxford and has not be verified. Let me remind you that according to WP:Verify, "The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain" , so please provide evidence (screenshot) of that particular sentence which I quoted and you have attributed to Oxford, or it will be removed. --Mardavich 12:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Ever heard of the difference between literal quoting and summarizing a source? Both is legitimate. In this case, "became commonplace" really belonged to the earlier version of the text, my bad, I've removed it from that sentence because it is better attributed to the other source (the one you gave). "mid-20th century" logically follows from the dates quoted, because that's just how this dictionary works. The attestations are always to be understood as representative examples of the earliest known use, so if the earliest one is from 1951, that's the time it was borrowed, roughly. FellFairy 12:16, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Please read WP:OR, you just can't just make your own conclusions based on your own POV interpretations of what a source says. The quote "Farsi was borrowed into English as an alternative form beginning in the mid-20th century" is still original research and should be removed from the article. --Mardavich 12:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you familiar with the usage of dictionaries? All signs point to "no"! :) - Francis Tyers · 12:34, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

"Farsi was borrowed into English as an alternative form beginning in the mid-20th century" is still an original research, contrary to wikipedia's no original research rule outlined at WP:OR. Please remove that quote, Wikipedia articles are not a place for personal speculations and observations. --Mardavich 12:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

What exactly of that sentence are you disputing? "Was borrowed"? Well, what else, of course it was linguistic borrowing, they didn't simply invent it. Want to replace it with "first occurred"? Okay with me. "as an alternative form"? Well, what else, it didn't become the only form now, did it. Want to leave it out? Okay with me. "in the mid-20th century"? Well, how else would you describe the date 1951? Want to replace the whole sentence with "Its first recorded use in English was in the mid-20th century" or something like that? Okay with me. Or my distinction between "use" (after 1951) and "mention" (earlier examples)? If you don't like that, then by all means go ahead and say it entered English earlier, in 1878. FellFairy 12:49, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, wikipedia has a no original research rule outlined at WP:OR which explicitly states : "'Articles may not contain any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published arguments, ideas, data, or theories that serves to advance a position'." Your analysis or arguments may even be right, but you just can't add your own analysis or arguments to the article based on secondary published arguments. Therefore, "Farsi was borrowed into English as an alternative form beginning in the mid-20th century" is original research, please remove it from the article. --Mardavich 13:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The keyword here being, of course, ...to advance a position. What position exactly, do you think, am I advancing if I prefer "was borrowed" over "first occurred", and "in the mid-20th century" over "in 1951" (or "in 1878", for that matter)? I'm simply summarizing the published literature, which is definitely not disallowed by any Wikipedia rule that I've seen. Feel free to replace the sentence with a more accurate wording if you can think of one. I won't hold it against you as a 3RR violation as long as you don't just simply erase it. FellFairy 13:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The words "borrowed", "alternative" etc have a lot of POV implications that " serve to advance a position". "Farsi was borrowed into English as an alternative form beginning in the mid-20th century" is neither sourced nor cited. It's original research, it should be removed from the article per WP:OR. --Mardavich 13:29, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

How is ";The first appearence of the term 'Farsi' in the English language, as reported by the Oxford English Dictionary was 1878" ? Or perhaps you have an alternative wording you would prefer? Work with us, not against us! :) - Francis Tyers · 13:34, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

How about "Neologism "Farsi" appears to have been first used in English in the mid-20th century" ? --Mardavich 13:47, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it is better if we attribute it to the OED, and I'm not sure we can say "neologism", as that may be original research. How about "According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term 'Farsi' was first used in English in the mid-20th century" ? - Francis Tyers · 14:03, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good, but can you make it "appears to have been first used" to make it more NPOV. Oh and please remove the dispute tag while you are at it. Cheers. --Mardavich 14:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay with me too. FellFairy 14:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, thanks :) PS. See discussion at Talk:Bandar-Lengeh County. - Francis Tyers · 14:17, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Latin *Persianus

Why does the Latin form of Persian have an asterisk next to it (in the nomenclature section)? Is it unattested/reconstructed, the normal denotation of * in historical linguisitcs? I find it hard to believe Persianus is unattested in Latin. Or maybe someone just put it there by accident. –jonsafari 16:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

It's at least unattested in any of the dictionaries I have looked at. The usual form is Persicus; in Greek it is Περσικός. --Jpbrenna 21:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I guess it begs the question, what source is there to back up the *Persianus reconstruction? As far as I can tell, this was the edit that added this unattested Latin form. –jonsafari 23:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Seems to be my job here to consult the OED. Actually, the "*Persianus" is listed there too, with the asterisk. I'm not sure I understand it correctly though. What it seems to be saying is that English at some time (during the Renaissance?) created "Persian" by way of analogy with other words in "-ian". Like as if there had been a Latin form "Persianus". Earlier, English had slightly different forms, also from the word "Pers-" but with different endings. Taken from French apparently. FellFairy 23:40, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't have access to the OED, so I can't write a specific citation in the article. Would you be able to write the specific reference in the nomenclature etymology section? Does the OED support exactly the other derivational forms mentioned in the article? Thanks. –jonsafari 18:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Arabic script in Wikipedia

A guideline on whether or not to italicize Arabic (and all scripts other than Latin) is being debated at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (text formatting)#Italics in Cyrillic and Greek characters. - - Evv 17:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The consensus so far seems to be what is commonplace already: English text is non-italics, Latin script transliteration/romanization is italics, non-Latin script is non-italics. –jonsafari 18:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's Farsi References

There are 15 sources used in the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad entry for which an editor has requested verification with the {{check}} tag. These sources are in Farsi. I don't read it, and I don't have a translator for it. I don't suppose anyone here is feeling philanthropic and cares to help out another editor? I'd be happy to verify some English sources if you have any, or do any other gruntwork that doesn't require the understanding of Farsi. I don't think there's a "proper" place to ask for this sort of help, but if there's a better place, please let me know. Thanks! Vir4030 03:18, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Translators available is probably the best place to look for help. There are currently 3 Persian to English translators listed. 203.109.240.93 19:17, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

More Persian speakers

" CIA World Factbook, based on old data, there are 71 million native speakers of Persian in Iran [1], Afghanistan [2], Tajikistan [3] and Uzbekistan [4] and there are about the same number other peoples who can speak Persian throughout the world."

The box on the right hand side of the article says that the total number of Persian speakers is only 110 Million. The Cia world fact book says that number should be 142 Million, therefore I am editing the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.66.84 (talk • contribs) 23:16, 25 November 2006.

Yes, but to add those numbers up would be original research. There are other factors as well. Do you have any sources that specifically say there are 142 million Persian-speakers? Khoikhoi 23:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there is one source already given in the text (a BBC article in which scholars on Persian literature say that the language is spoken by ca. 200m people). However, I think that any number higher than 100m for the native speakers is unrealistic. For the time being, we should keep the 70m.

Tājik 15:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Iraqi President

The article claims that the president of Iraq as well as four other nations speaks Persian. I could find no information whether Jalal Talabani or Nouri al-Maliki speaks Persian.--Fox Mccloud 02:25, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Jalal Talabani speaks Persian with native fluency, he's regularly interviewed on Persian-language radios and TV stations. Here is a source: It is the fourth visit by Talabani, who speaks fluent Farsi, since he took office. --Mardavich 02:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Mardavich. --Fox Mccloud 21:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

* so-called Persian language is not related to the Persian Tribe who established the Persian
 Empire by the aid of Medians,eventually demolished by Alexander the Great. And also the
 Geographical origion of this language is not the residence area of Persians, situated in the
 South of "Iran" and locally named "FARS". The geographical origion of this language is
 the "Central Asia". That is why all pioneer poets of this language are from this area, mainly
 situated in Afghanistan, Uzbakistan and Tajikistan.The original speakers of this language,that
 speak it more perfectly than "Iranians", are called TAJIK.Therefore, "Persian" or "Farsi" is a
 wrong name for this language.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.107.151.48 (talk • contribs)

Do you have any references to support your theory? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.125.71.13 (talk) 23:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

Interesting theory, but why can't we share?! it's only fair.. :) --Rayis 09:25, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Who changed the trivia section?

The Trivia section was written very elegantly previously. Now, not only it lacks some of the facts and the objectivity it had before but it also needs an English makeover... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.181.222.89 (talk) 04:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

Cazimi?

Hey just a question on an individual word: does anyone know whether the word "Cazimi" is an Arabic or Persian word? It supposedly means "in the heart of the Sun" or "heart of the Sun." The article might be miscategorized, that's why I'm checking here just to make sure that it's not in the wrong category. It's a technical astronomical/astrological term, fairly old it seems; does anyone know this? Are their any native speakers afoot that would know this or the word's origin(s)? --172.128.131.86 15:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC) im a native speaker and i've never heard of that word so i guess its arabic!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.165.16.39 (talk) 07:30, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Let's make this article good

This article seems to have more or less plateaued these past few months. I think it could be a good article with a few changes here and there. What do you all think needs to be done to the article to make it absolutely ready for an official good article review and subsequent nomination? –jonsafari 05:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

(copied in from your talk page)

Here are some immediate thoughts:

• References need to be cleaned up and standardised -- also needs more citations.
• The difference between Iranian Persian and Persian needs to be distinguished.
• Section on "Modern Persian influence on other languages" and "Vocabulary" can probably be merged.
• The Writing systems section should be cleaned up a bit so that it covers all the major writing systems used for Persian.
• Trivia section should be removed.
• Not sure how useful the comparison table is.
• The phonology section needs tightening to mention changes in vowels between the varieties.
• No mention of Early New Persian.

Basically I think the main problem with the article as it is written currently is the confusion between talking about Iranian Persian (e.g. the standardised variety spoken in Iran), and Persian which is a catch-all term for all of the standards spoken. If we are talking about the catch-all term, we should be careful not to assume that the Iranian variety is the "standard to which all other standards aspire".

Consider sections like:

Lexical confusion in the West between terms like Farsi, Dari and Tajiki often leads to an underestimation of the breadth of the influence of Persian in Southwest Asia, which is quite important and is a legacy of the millennia-long existence of a Persian cultural sphere, perhaps because this cultural sphere functioned differently than modern nationalism in the West. Other Iranian languages are closely related as well.

It might be a good idea to arrange the sections more in the order of Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages/Template?

All in all, I wouldn't support it for GA right now... mainly because of the lack of references. I'd be interested in working with you to get it up to GA quality though. Hope this review has been of help, - Francis Tyers · 10:50, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

"Lexical confusion in the West..."

The section beginning with "Lexical confusion in the West" does not appear to contribute to the article. It generalizes a full half of the world, and doesn't seem to belong in this entry. I mean, what I read that sentence as saying is "Westerners don't understand the difference between local languages because they don't think too much of Persian." I think it shows bias and is irrelevant. ?? 71.252.43.218 —Preceding Wikipedia:Signatures comment was added at 10:55, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. –jonsafari (talk) 02:02, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I also agree. I'll try removing it, but you know how the chaps here are. - Francis Tyers · 07:17, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Orthography/Writing system

I think the Orthography section could probably use some cutting. I'm not sure that it is necessary to deal with stuff like ZWNJ in this particular article (it would be more suited to Perso-Arabic script or Persian alphabet. - Francis Tyers · 23:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

More equal treatment should be given to the various historical and current writing systems. This should be an overview afterall. - Francis Tyers · 00:00, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

More general suggestions for improvement

• The grammar section could do with some expansion. The grammar section needs a major reworking.
• I may be completely off here, but hasn't Early New Persian been missed out of the history section. I think the historical progression was something like Old Persian -> Middle Persian -> Early New Persian -> Modern Persian, but I may have misread something somewhere.
• The current example is a bit trivial. It is good as everyone knows it, but perhaps a more interesting and representative sample could be found. Perhaps also some samples from other standards of Persian?
• External links need pruning, but if I do that I'll probably just get reverted. Bear in mind Wikipedia:External links!
• The nomenclature section is oversized, but again, if I trim it I will get reverted. It could be summarised in two paragraphs (one about etymology, one about current usage).
• Phonology section needs to be expanded.
• Some of the stuff like "former rank", "found their way" need to be removed or replaced with something more encyclopaedic.

- Francis Tyers · 00:00, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Mazandaran

I noticed that in the map, Mazandaran is not included in persian speaking area. This is wrong. Although Mazandarani language exists in Mazandaran, Persian is the native language of the big majority of people there and almost the native language of all Urban society in Mazandaran.Sangak 20:31, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

number of speakers of Persian as a second language

Do we have any source for that? It stands to reason that most Iranians speak Persian, so that would amount to some 30 M non-native speakers already. Plus there are maybe 1.5 million non-native speakers of Tajiki. Throw in another half-million here and there, and we are at 32 million as a number that will probably be readily accepted by anyone. Even 35 million sounds reasonable (but "reasonable" isn't the same as "sourced"). How are you going to account for another 10 to 15 million non-native speakers? dab (𒁳) 08:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Persian and Pashtu are the two official languages of Afghanistan and according to Iranica, 90% of people in Afghanistan can speak Persian. However, I think mentioning "at least 30 million non-native speaker" is enough (and "at least 92 million speaker population total"). Jahangard 09:03, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

that's right. If this is true, ca. 40 million second language speakers (and 100 M total) will be a reasonable estimate. dab (𒁳) 20:27, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Actually in Iran 96% understand Persian (according to Hamshahri newspaper and 98% in Tehran). It is the native language (if you include subdialects like Gilaki, Mazandarani, Lur) of 65%. But for the purpose of argument if you include standard Tehrani Persian it is 58% according to CIA factbook. So that is 39-40 million in Iran. Now take Afghanistan 50% (CIA factbook) is native. that is 15 million right there. So you are above 50 million. Finally Tajikistan and Tajiks in the USSR (according to some western sources 40% of Uzbekistan is Tajik) and Afghan refugees in Pakistan easily numbers 10 million. So 62 million is actually very low end estimate. There is large number of Tajiks in Russia as well and large number of Iranians outside of Iran and large number in Iraq, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Pakistan, India..So it is hard to tell but 62 million seems to be the low end. --alidoostzadeh 01:23, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

You include Gileki as a dialect? - Francis Tyers · 08:43, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

People of Mazandaran are native speakers of persian or at least as native as Mazandarani! Big majority of Mazandarani people (almost all urban population) do not speak Mazandarani or are bilingual. Sangak 16:40, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

You would like to rising the number of native speakers, this is not a respectful way, If you really would like to promote this language, do it by some other actions, Also i wrote 50% of modern persian, what is considered as standard tehrani dialect today, are arabic words, which is a fact, and not a lie, and many educational books even the books of my school refering to it --Ali 19:42, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Parsi-e-Dari

Actually ferdowsi uses both Dari and Parsi..So does Hafez, Sa'adi , Nezami, Naser Khosrow and other Persian poets. Modern Persian is a direct descendant of Middle Persian. Parsi-e-Dari is the Khorasani dialect of middle Persian. Also people of Afghanistan are diverse as other people of region. So Dari is a another name for Parsi. (Deutch, German, Almani) being another example. Where-as the term Parsi is more general though and can refer to other Iranic dialects. (same with Pahlavi). Ferdowsi calls it one place: Parsi-e-Dari and I think that is the best clarification. Since other forms of Parsi existed. --alidoostzadeh 08:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Haleh Esfandiari

Hello, could a Persian language expert provide the Persian spelling of her name at the Haleh Esfandiari article? Many thanks, Badagnani 06:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

It would be very nice if someone could add the Persian spelling for this name, thank you. Badagnani 00:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Ash-e anar

Hello, could a Persian language provide the Persian spelling at the Ash-e anar article? Than you, Badagnani 00:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Word Formation

"dânande dân + -ande one who knows Adjective // dânandegi dân + -ande + -i knowing Noun" I'm no Persian expert, but surely "one who knows" is a noun and "knowing" is an adjective(?) I might thing it meant "knowing" as a gerund, but the use of the -i suffix to indicate "pertaining to university (owtte)" earlier in the table, means I've rather dismissed that idea. Could somebody with knowledge of the language verify this (and update the table)? LaFoiblesse 2007-05-30 00:09 (GMT)

IPA2

Please see the discussion at Talk:IPA2. Thanks. --Amir E. Aharoni 08:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Iranian Scouting

Can someone please render Aamaadeh Baash (Be Prepared), the Scout Motto, into Persian script? Thanks! Chris 03:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC) yeah,in persian script its this way: آماده باش —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shahrzad hbk (talk • contribs) 07:33, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Romanization of Persian

Please see the discussion at Talk:Romanization of Persian. Any input is welcome. Thanks. --Amir E. Aharoni 07:05, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Flags

Any objection if I trim the veritable fruit salad of decorative flags from the infobox? --John 17:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I removed all flags from the infobox. It looks a lot less cluttered, and no information was lost. --John 14:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Nomenclature 2

In the section it is stated, that "The international language encoding standard ISO 639-1 uses the code "fa", as its coding system is based on the local names." I believe, the marked information is incorrect. Cf. Hungarian "hu", but the endonym is magyar, Japanese "jp" but endonym nihongo. Szabi 13:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

IMO the Nomenclature section is much too long, and much too prominent (coming so early in the article). This looks to me like a section that has clearly been a subject of controversy, and has therefore been edited over time into a state where it represents a political compromise, rather than part of an effective presentation of information.--76.93.42.50 (talk) 03:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

recent change re: BMWs

Someone added something ridiculous about Persians and Armenians that is mildly offensive. I suggest it be removed.

208.27.111.130 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 18:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

"Modern Persian"

This article should give a diachronic overview of the Persian language, while Modern Persian should be a separate article discussing the modern language. Compare Greek language vs. Modern Greek, Aramaic language vs. Neo-Aramaic or Hebrew language vs. Ivrit. Persian, Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew and arguably Tamil are the only languages the name of which is applied to stages spanning more than 2,000 years. These four (or five) special cases deserve a treatment of the language as a whole separate from the article on the modern language. --dab (𒁳) 17:27, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Hebrew language has very little to do with ancient Persian language aswell as modern day Parsi. Ramtashaniku (talk) 21:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Dbachman was using Hebrew as an example, not suggesting a linguistic relationship between Persian and Hebrew. –jonsafari (talk) 03:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with dbachmann. - Francis Tyers · 08:04, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I know this is late, but I'll pipe in. I have no problem with dbachman's proposal. My only hesitation is that it would require significant restructuring of this article (and others). –jonsafari (talk) 07:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Question? Why both Ibrahim and Ebrahim

I note that Ibrahim and it's listed names tend to be predominantly Arab and Ebrahim and it's listed names tend to be predominantly Persian. Is it be a 'way back when' geographic and/or religious transliterational difference between Arabic and Persian. Is there an idenifiable source for this difference? Any ideas? Listed names from sub-Saharan Africa seem to show less correlation and may be related to the former colonial power's preference. This note also posted at Talk:Romanization_of_Arabic Appreciated, memnoonam. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 16:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Historical linguistics is your friend. See Persian_phonology#Historical_shifts. Specifically, Early New Persian [ɪ] > Modern Iranian Persian [e]. Thus Tajik would still use the original [ɪ] for this name. –jonsafari (talk) 21:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Need spelling for word

Need spelling for "sayr" (meaning "journey"), as used in early Islamic and Sufi poetry and treatises. Also, is this term used in Arabic? The only similar word I can find is "safr," and "sair" in Arabic means something different. Badagnani (talk) 23:13, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

It appears to be <span=2 style="font-size: 20pt">سير, as in <span=2 style="font-size: 20pt">سير و سلوك. Badagnani (talk) 23:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

سیر و سفر (Seir o Safar) in today iran has a meaning of travelling for having fun but سیر و سلوک means a mystical change.as you said seyr in arabic means change. Bbadree (talk) 06:41, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

If the words are so closely related, which language is the origin? Badagnani (talk) 06:45, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Need assistance at Lute

This text appears at the article Lute:

“ The words "lute" and "oud" may have derived from Arabic al‘ud (العود; literally "the wood"), though recent research by Eckhard Neubauer suggests that ‘ud may simply be an Arabized version of the Persian name rud, which meant "string," "stringed instrument," or "lute." ”

Is it correct, and, if so, what is the Persian spelling and etymology for "rud"? Badagnani (talk) 02:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

MOS on Persian vs. Farsi

I am of the opinion that the usage of either Persian or Farsi should be standardized in the Manual of Style. I do not have a preference one way or the other which one is chosen, but I'd like some consistency in articles. For now I'm basing it on Persian as in this article. Peter Deer (talk) 16:52, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

(Sigh) There are those who do not subscribe to this false dichotomy. This is an informative read from a well-known scholar in this field. –jonsafari (talk) 07:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Farsi vs Persian

Farsi should not redirect here. This article should be called Farsi with Persian redirecting here. 69.235.9.128 (talk) 04:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Separate article for Persian vs Farsi

Would it be possible to create a new, separate article about the whole Persian-vs-Farsi mess? This should extend beyond the language itself and also cover the subtext of why so many people seem to get their panties in a twist about this; I gather that the Islamic Republic prefers "Farsi" while the exiles prefer "Persian"... Jpatokal (talk) 09:38, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

You are correct in your observation that many people "get their panties in a twist" on this subject. It touches on such subjects as national and ethnic identity, and as well as people's understanding of linguistics, this language, and English. It is a complex subject that many people feel emotional about. I agree that this subject in itself does deserve a neutral and well-referenced discussion, so that outsiders on this subject can get a neutral and informed understanding of this.

The problem is, I don't think Wikipedians are ready quite yet to create a neutral, balanced, and well-sourced article on this subject.

In the past there have been many many lengthy discussions, disagreements, and all-out flame-fests. Many people (both Wikipedians and AC's) will automatically delete any mention of a name for this language that they don't like, regardless of it's appropriateness in the context.

As an example, the official Unicode name for this letter "ی" is "ARABIC LETTER FARSI YEH" (not to be confused with alif maqsura). Like it or not, that's what Unicode currently calls it, and that's what it is labelled in a few WP articles that describe the official Unicode name for this letter. However, very frequently this string gets renamed in articles to something that people would rather have it called.

Another example is the ISO 639-3 name for identifiers 'pes' and 'prs', in this article.

Another example is the etymological explanation of the the word Fingilish.

However, the disagreement is not really between the Islamic Republic and exiles, but rather between prescriptivists and actual colloquial usage in the English language, by speakers of both languages. The situation somewhat parallels Bengali vs. Bangla (but see below).

Most people have grown tired of the debate, and what's in this article is a sort-of compromise, for better or worse. If you really feel strongly that you would like to tackle creating a new article on this subject, feel free. I would not be opposed to it, but I would caution you that you will be flooded with many emotionally-charged edits. (but maybe you would be more willing to deal with this).

I guess I should mention my position, as sort of a disclaimer. I do not feel strongly for "Farsi" nor "Persian". I really don't see it as "Persian" versus "Farsi". The best reasoning about this that I've read comes from professor Simin Karimi, a well-known scholar in this field, in this short paper. –jonsafari (talk) 04:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

That's a very good (and concise!) paper. Badagnani (talk) 04:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

That's all very nice, but it's, um, irrelevant. Wikipedia hasn't given up its articles on abortion or George Bush or Takeshima even though they're subject to continual edit wars, and there are some pretty good articles like Sea of Japan naming dispute about topics where naming itself is a major bone of contention.

And oh, I personally have zero stake in the naming. I was just sidetracked here when somebody started removing the word "Farsi" from a pointer to Fingilish in the article Finglish (about Finnish+English), and then was a little surprised to not see any discussion of why this is so hotly debated in here. Jpatokal (talk) 07:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

India and Israel

I've addede India and Israel as the countries where Persian is spoken. No Ref. is needed. Persian jews in Israel and Parsi/Irani in India + even those who are not really Persian (in India).