Talk:Prophet

Early comments

For me a prophet is somebody who asks us to reassess the way we are living our lives, somebody who asks us to look in a new direction (is this not what prophets of all creeds have done), and gives us guidance, or points out possible errors, in the way we have treated both each other and our home. The problem appears to be that a prophet cannot be considered such unless she/he has the weight of history behind them, should a new prophet arrive would they be greeted with open arms by the many, or shunned into hiding and desperation by the many, who expect who knows what but not words from the mouth of an ordinary person.

If I look at a prophet as someone who shows me a new way of living, that is more in tune with the world that I inhabit than a world 2000 years ago, do I dismiss this prophet?? Do I say that although I believe your thoughts to be correct, although I believe your arguments valid, I cannot accept you as a prophet?

The prophets have all one thing in common, they tried to shape the world for the better. Their beliefs were held because of a deep belief not only in a deep understanding of humanity, but also the belief that humanity was here for a purpose.

According to the major religions of the world today, there has not been a moderm prophet for nearly 1700 years, why is this? was there a sudden flurry a couple of thousand years ago??? or have we become to closed off to hear the new prophets??

Bill Hicks RIP

Biblical prophets

Article says "Within this group, many Protestants believe that prophecy ended with the last of the prophets in the portion of the Old Testament included in their canon, leaving a gap of about 400 years between then and the coming of Jesus Christ" -- doesn't the NT say John the Baptist was a prophet?

And, don't the Epistles speak of prophets or prophecy in the early church? (Which would seem to indicate that it didn't die out until the end of the apostolic age?)

Finally, doesn't the book of Revelations (Rev. 11:3) predict a comeback for prophecy? (The two witnesses who will prophesy for 1260 days?) -- SJK

Regarding the Protestant belief, that's what I gathered from growing up in Sunday School in a variety of Protestant settings, but my experience is a very small data point. If you have other experience or data that suggests Protestants view John the Baptist as a prophet, than perhaps "many Protestants" should be downgraded to "some" or "a few"; or delete the reference to Protestants and Orthodox and just say "many Christians think John the Baptist was the last prophet" if my experience turns out to have been an anomaly. That wouldn't terribly surprise me, on something like this.

The Epistles do speak of prophecy and even prophets, mostly in terms of a gift or role that a person might exercise from time to time. I don't think the NT names specific people as prophets, though I could be mistaken. Historically, the Church has often referred to such people as "saints" rather than prophets, whereas OT holy people are usually called "prophets" rather than "saints", or it seems based on my limited exposure. I don't think you see specific people identified as prophets until you get down to groups like the Latter Day Saints. As for anything dying out at the end of the apostolic age, prophecy or anything else, I think that belief is only held by some dispensationalist theologians. Certainly the Catholic and Orthodox would affirm that the apostolic age is continuing via apostolic succession, and many Pentecostals, Charismatics, and other Protestants would say that the Holy Spirit continues to be active in the church and in the world in a number of ways, including by bestowing prophecy. Perhaps the difference between OT and NT prophecy is best shown in the Joel passage that's quoted in Acts 2.

Revelations says lots of things, which are interpreted many many different ways. :-) If we were discussing what the Bible actually teaches, we could quote Scripture verses in defense of this or that interpretation, as well as argue that this or that methodology should be used to interpret the verses, or that a particular tradition of interpretation is authoritative and ought to be followed. As we write these encyclopedia articles, I think our job is to document what the major groups of people out there believe that the Bible teaches, both historically and today. With that in mind, do you or any groups you know of believe that Revelation predicts a comeback of prophecy? As for me, I've believed many things about it myself, to the point now of being fairly thoroughly agnostic about it.

These are good questions, and I'm glad you raised them. Hope this is dialogue is helpful, and that it results in an improved article. I think it will. --Wesley

Muhammad was not the seventh Muslim prophet, although he was the last. He was the last of the "5" prophets who brought with themselves a book (Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad). Muslims have thousands of other prophets, although they did not bring upon their people a religion. Alireza Hashemi

Some of them did. E.g., the Persians Zoroaster and Mani. Don't Muslims regard them as prophets? Some people think the Mandaean religion was founded by John the Baptist, who is considered by Mandaeans the greatest prophet (although they claim their religion antedates him, just as Muslims claim theirs antedates Muhammad). Since someone asked about Roman Catholic views of John the Baptist, I believe I recall reading in the online Catholic Encyclopedia (I don't recall the URL, but you can find it via Google) that Catholics do consider him a prophet. Michael Hardy 21:22 Mar 14, 2003 (UTC)

In response to your comments:There are thousands of prophets, however Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad are of the ololazm. Zaroaster is considered by some to be a ololazm prophet, although he has never been mentioned. With the many thousand prophets muslims have in virtually every region of the world, even the Buddha might be considered as a prophet.

The "Revelation of Ares" is not really a religion. It is the work of one Frenchman, named Michel Potay, a former Eastern Orthodox Deacon who since 1974 claims to be a new prophet of God. He has been ignored by the masses, and has few followers. His faith isn't even a statistical blip, and it does not (yet?) merit any text within this article. We can, of course, create a new article on this new spiritual movement.

Deleted material follows:

Views of The Revelation of Arès ===

The Revelation of Arès took place in Arès (France) and made the witness of the supernatural events, Michel POTAY, a prophet. The Revelation of Arès was given by Jesus in 1974 (40 Apparitions) and God in 1977 (5 Theophanies), it constitutes a recent but major Revelation since the Bible and the Qur'an.

The Revelation of Arès recalls the monotheistic roots, in order to recreate and dynamise spiritual life, which is the fundamental task of any prophet. The basic message is that man will not gain happiness by any rigid, dogmatic, legalistic, ideological, political, scientific, financial, nationalistic, theological, etc., system, but by simply recreating himself good, becoming once again the positive image and likeliness of the Creater, thus redeeming himself and recreating Eden, here on earth.

The Revelation of Arès refers to former prophets (Zarathustra, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Jesus, Muhammad) in a unique way, inciting the faithful of The Revelation of Arès to accomplish all their respective messages in a spiritual and virtuous harmony with this recent Revelation. It is giving many insights as to how everybody is to become a prophet himself by delegation, e.g. by living and spreading all the Word of God, as revealed by His prophets.

The original text of The Revelation of Arès is edited in a book with the same title. In Arès (France) takes place a pilgrimage every summer, which is destined to give the humble pilgrim coming there the forces to accomplish his intentions of recreating himself and the world good, in order to contribute to change human history to the better, which is the reason why all the prophets are sent.

This material has been moved to a new article: Revelation of Arès. COGDEN 19:02, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't some mention of classical oracles, and so forth, be mentioned on this page? As I recall, soothsayers, and so forth, were sometimes called prophets. john 22:34 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me! RK 22:37 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)

A removal

I removed the following text, which seems awkward and not really à propos to this article:

Readers of this article are encouraged to read the parallel article on revelation, as the term revelation itself has a number of meanings and interpretations, even within the same religion. Various forms of revelation have been proposed, including: verbal revelation; Aristotelian rationalism; non-Verbal propositional revelation; and God's will as revealed through a people's historical development of their faith. In the 20th century existentialism has inspired new ways of understanding revelation.

COGDEN 16:54, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Christian concepts of a prophet

I removed "for the link to the divine is threatened. Questions of self-deception and gullibility arise from those who remain unconvinced." because:

• The first part seemed like a bit of unnecessary psychoanalysis. Isn't it enough to state what without hypothesizing why?
• The second part is about skeptics' view of the Christian concept of prophecy, not the concept itself. If this perspective is going to be included, it should be separate from this section, because these "questions of self-deception and gullibility" apply to all believers in prophecy, not just the Christian variety.

Tverbeek 01:35, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Raw censorship. If prophecy is a link to the divine as it is claimed, then doubt threatens the link to the divine. A functional and logical statement, not "unnecessary psychoanalysis." Questions of self-deception and gullibility do indeed apply to all believers in prophecy, assessed from a skeptical, which is to say a rational and neutral point-of-view. This suppression is too shallow to deceive and too offensive to stand. A mark of dishonor for User:Tverbeek. I refuse to revert, since reversion has been so compromised by just this kind of "editing." Wetman 04:11, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm not trying to suppress anything (I don't believe in prophecy either), so please tone down the hyperbolic rhetoric. I think the skeptic's take on all this is pretty self-evident, which is why I didn't think it needed to be spelled out, but if you think it does, by all means, include the comments about how skeptics view prophecy, but put them in an appropriate context. The insertion of critical comments in that particular section seems like an attempt to insert your own POV into a description of someone else's.

P.S. Anyone who believes that his own POV is inherently NPOV should be prepared for questions of self-deception from those who remain unconvinced. :) Tverbeek 11:57, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

No educated person could imagine that skepticism is a "take" in a neutral atmosphere. Skepticism is an intellectual starting-point. It is the neutral starting-ground for the rest of us here at Wikipedia. In fact the lack of skepticism is a symptom of a cultist in its most negative connotation. Wikipedians should not all be bullied by a handful of aggressive cultists. "If prophecy is a link to the divine as it is claimed, then doubt threatens the link to the divine." Where is the illogic of this neutral and axiomatic statement? Why are we to be censored by Tverbeek in this repellant manner? --Wetman 01:11, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't really understand the point of these sentences. Obviously those who are assured in their own worldview (be they bible-thumper or skeptic) think everyone who thinks differently is gullible and deluded, and this works both ways. It seems too obvious to state. Why do we need to explain why this is the case in this article, as opposed to some more general article on religion or skepticism? COGDEN 04:28, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

Well, that's a sensible thought! --Wetman 07:22, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Removed advertisement for Muhammad... not sure how that slipped through.--141.195.143.107 01:14, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

This is a very poor quality discussion of Chiristian concepts of the prophetic tradition. It seems to be written from one, fairly narrow perspective of a particular charismatic group. For instance, what Chrisitan groups are meant by "some Christians?" The discussion is very vague, and does not seem to reflect the breadth and depth of theological thought on the topic. 131.238.30.195 16:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Merging?

Why should this article be merged? Prophecy is the act of telling the future, a prophet is the person who does it - they're both long pages, and I'm pretty sure they'd spit out page size warnings if they were merged.

I'm removing the merge notice and removed the merge listing - see Talk:Prophecy#Prophecy distinct from Prophet -- Zawersh 06:23, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it is not immediately obvious, but the prophet is quite a separate subject from the contents of the prophecy, and needs to be examined separately, particularly as they relate to their particular faiths.--Mrg3105 01:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Notability

Shouldn't there be some minimal standard of notability for a religion to have a section on this page? In particular, do the last two - Direct Worship and some splinter sect of Rastafarianism - really merit a whole subsection, particularly when major issues like the Nilotic concept of prophecy remain undiscussed? - Mustafaa 22:16, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's a problem, but the NPOV policy makes it more difficult to exclude marginal stuff like this. Jayjg 04:32, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

keyboard

Shouldn't we mention the Prophet electronical music keyboard? Purple Rose 14:25, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Zarathushtra?

Where is Zarathushtra (Zoroaster)?! Is there a reason why he is not here? Considering the impact his religion had on Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Buddhism (not to mention Manichaeism, Mazdakism, Mithraism and others), I find it a major omission. I just wanted to ask, before I consider endeavoring to distill what I know into a section. Others have mentioned him above, but only as a peripheral matter in regards to Islam or The Revelation of Arès. Zoroastrianism may be the smallest of the great World Religions, but its current size belies its historic notability which is especially apparent in the eschatology, soteriology, dualism, angels, temptation by evil, the three wise men, et cetera ad æternum, of the three largest monotheistic faiths today. In essence (or should I say Essenes!) he's a prophet's prophet and I am mystified why he's not here. I can not varify whether or not Zarathushtra is considered a minor Islamic prophet, but Magians are only mentioned once in the Qur'ān (22:17) and not spoken well of in the Ḥadīth. After the Arab conquest of Persia, Zoroastrians were officially considered as 'people of the book' (which is an interesting footnote considering their scriptures were non-Abrahamic), though in reality they were heavily persecuted and driven into the hills of Iran and to exile in India. Khirad 14:55, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

An omission. --Wetman 18:59, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Criteria for a Prophet. My two cents: prophecy is only one "job" that a prophet does. I think miracle working is another. Intercessory prayer is another. Whether or not a prophet has a mass of followers is not that important. Daniel and Jonah come to mind. Sex should not be important either. I would add Anna, the 84 year old lady in Luke chapter 2, to the list of New Testament Prophets. For me it comes down to two criteria. Does the Prophet bring a message from God to a person(s),whether by way of reinforcement, a new teaching, or a prediction? Does the Prophet manifest the works of God? A prophet must experience God. A prophet must express the will of God in words and works. Enoch.

Removed the paragraph on dispensationalism as it was unclear, no reference for the phrase “most of Christianity”, and lumps The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints incorrectly into a Protestant denomination. (If this section was meant to show that the LDS church teach a form of dispensationalism, then it should go under the LDS concept of a prophet) But mainly it seems this section just seems to be placed here and does not flow well.

I also included Joseph Smith as a false prophet under the Christian concept of a prophet for the following reasons. 1. No mainline Christian denomination (from Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, etc, consider Joseph Smith a prophet. 2. Joseph Smith’s taught different theology about God, Jesus, Salvation than what is taught in the Bible. 3. Very few if any of his prophecies came true. 4. Unlike the Bible there is no historical proof of any of the events or cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

Joseph Smith, Latter day saints: Unfulfilled prophecies, teaching contrary to

http://home.teleport.com/~packham/tract.htm http://home.teleport.com/~packham/prophet.htm http://www.tektonics.org/gk/josproph.html http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_packham/jsmith.html http://www.contenderministries.org/mormonism/falseprophet.php

Comparison of Christian and Mormon Belief http://www.contenderministries.org/mormonism/comparison.php 1freethinker 16:47, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I qualified the statements about what "most Christians believe" to "some Christians believe" because it's an unsupported statement. I also added some qualification and clarification about why some Christians may point to Joseph Smith as a false prophet in a way that introduces the topic without getting into the argument of who's a real prophet and who's not. Finally, I added some more information about what latter-day saints consider our prophet and ancient prophets to be. I wanted to add that mormons consider themselves Christians, but it didn't seem like it would flow, and there's probably a better page for it elsewhere.Adambryant 20:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)adambryant

discussed & unreferenced passage

I rm the subsection titled "The Direct Worship concept of prophet" which stated that: Direct Worship teaches that God is equally accessible to all mankind, and that God has ordained only one universally common mode of worship for all mankind to follow. As such, any follower of Direct Worship can obtain enlightenment from God provided a certain level of sacrifices is met and that these sacrifices are performed directly in honor of God only. Consequently, prophets in Direct Worship are accorded a normal human status, but are recognised to have received divine revelation as a reward for performing significant prayers and sacrifices.". It is not noteworthy and unreferenced. Please see WP:CS. Santa Sangre 04:10, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

so how are they the same well to tell you the truth no one really knows the right answer to that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.1.94.6 (talk • contribs) .

Other people termed Prophets

All members of the Grotto (an appendant Masonic Order), officially called The Mystic Order of Veiled Prophets of the Enchanted Realm are termed "Prophets" This should perhaps be included in the article?

Vandalism

Someone is vandalizing the page by reverting to this patently nonnsensical description:

"a prophet is a person who has directly encountered God, of whose intentions he can then speak as if he were God himself."

Has that been there very long? It's ridiculous.

Alleged or actual 'prophets' neither consider themselves to be nor are considered to be "speaking ask if he [or she]is God himself." The sentence was was written by someone who is either very ignorant of the topic, or a cynic wanting to trivialize the whole discussion. It is vandalism pure and simple, and I'll go to the mat on this. To repeat: You can modify my own input, but a wholesale revert is vandalism.

(the above edit was unsigned)

The opening paragraph back on 2005-04-10 was as follows:

In numerous religions, including Abrahamic religions, Jah religions, Sikhism, and many forms of Paganism, a prophet is an intermediary with a deity, particularly someone who speaks for the deity or interprets the deity's will or mind. A prophet usually operates through some means of divination, channeling, or extra-sensory perception, and the prophet's pronouncements in the name of a deity are sometimes called revelation. Some utterances foretelling the future may be interpreted as having been prophesies. Some "prophecies" seem to have been made after the event; these are given the technical name vaticinia ex eventu.

I would agree that the description in the article as it stands today is far inferior to this earlier one [apart from obvious typos or spelling mistakes]. DFH 17:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Your attack on the person here - labling people "vandals" - is inappropriate. This is not vandalism, it is a difference of opinion. Wikipedia says "Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism. Apparent bad-faith edits that do not make their bad-faith nature inarguably explicit are not considered vandalism at Wikipedia. For example, adding a personal opinion once is not vandalism — it's just not helpful, and should be removed or restated." 131.238.30.195 21:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

POV issues

In the same vein as the two comments directly above this one, I think the lead is problematic in numerous ways, especially concerning the Sybilline oracles and the implications of "a prophet (or prophetess) is a person who has directly encountered God". The Sibylline oracles were primarily pagan and hardly monotheists. I think that there is some very heavy Abrahamic POV in this entry. Zoroaster is suspiciously absent as well. I think that we should use Rudolf Otto's term numinous in place of "God" in the lead, and some of the material should be redacted for tone and POV. - WeniWidiWiki 20:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Several edits have been made to the entry without anyone bothering to discuss the inherent POV issues I've brought up. I would like some discussion about this matter, but will adhere to wikipedia policy by the letter and edit the material unilaterally if no one is interested in discussion. - WeniWidiWiki 15:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and be bold and change the intro. If it's something that others have problems with, the discussion will be able to go forward with an alternative. -- Jeff3000 15:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The current lead is way too short and doesn't meet WP:LEAD. -- Jeff3000 18:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I didn't intend to imply that it was finished - I intended to start off with what I consider a neutral title sentence and then discuss a neutral overview for the lede here on the talk page. Feel free to add NPOV material. I will be adding material on Sibyl and the Voluspa to the article directly (which are not Abrahamic or monotheistic) and later Zoroaster (who is not Abrahamic, but *is* monotheistic) so please keep that in mind. The usage of "God" is not consistent with Jewish usage, and most definitely not consistent with historical pagan usage. This is the lede before I modified it:

In religion, a prophet (or prophetess) is a person who has directly encountered God, of whose intentions he or she can then speak as if a formal representative of God. Those who are not prophets are then urged to take seriously the divinely revealed word as an act of faithfulness to God. When a prophet is held to be genuine, new religions may be adopted, based on the prophet's teachings, and on their interpretations. A prophet often operates through some means of divination or channeling. The process of receiving a message from God (or 'The Gods' or 'angels of God') is usually known as prophecy or revelation, and in this sense, the terms are synonymous.

Any suggestions or ideas which adhere to WP:NPOV would be appreciated. - WeniWidiWiki 18:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, this is the version as it now stands. Anyone want to discuss this, or is this acceptable?

In religion, a prophet (or prophetess) is a person who has directly encountered the numinous and serves as an intermediary with man for the divine. Prophets existed in many ancient cultures, including the Sybilline and Delphic Oracles in Ancient Greece, the Völuspá in Old Norse, Zoroaster in Persia, and many others. In Abrahamic religion, a prophet is seen as a person who has encountered, and speaks as a formal representative of, God; they are seen to found a new religion based on their teachings from God.

I changed "man" to "humanity," minor point. I do think the sentence is awkward, and would say "between humanity and the divine," but did not want to change that as others might think it implied different content. I did change last line to SOME prophets are seen as founding new religions. I don't think that is accurate of most prophets in the Abrahamic tradition... the Hebrew prophets are by far the majority and did not found new religoins.

In modern times, the term "prophet" is often controversial. Joseph Smith, Jr. and Ellen G. White the respective founders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Seventh-day Adventist Church, were considered prophets by their followers, but vilified by other branches of Christianity.

- WeniWidiWiki 17:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I'm the one who introduced the phrase "a prophet is someone who, having encountered God, is able then to speak of His intention." I had hoped in this to have stated the essential in as few words as possible. Someone else added to this "as if he were God himself," which certainly is "nonsense."

I think there is a confusion here between ecclesiastical efficaciousness and the nature of prophecy. What makes a person a prophet has nothing to do with the extent to which he or she is admitted to being a prophet, able to act as intermediary, formal representative etc. A prophet is someone, simply, who HAS had the relevent encounter (not necessary to say that the person BELIEVES to have had such an encounter), and all the relevent theology is contained in the idea of God, whatever that is, having a knowable intention, generally of a moral or eschatological character. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eliotistic (talk • contribs)

As a descendent of the Afrian Zulu Nation ... Why is it that you do not incorporate the the African Nation within your explatives of the origin of man. Knowing full well that the origin of man dwellwd in Africa nad that eveything that this so called modern world originated came from Africa. Stop Frontin!!

What happened??

The article in its present form (or rather, before I restored the intro), strongly implies that the term "prophet" originates with Judaism and the Old Testament, an implication which is broadly and specifically inaccurate. For instance, Nabu-Kudu-Reser (Nebuchadrezzar) means "the prophet guards my territory," --and he wasn't an Israelite, and the "nabu" in his name isn't referring to an Israelite prophet. Comparing the article with its form several months ago, it seems as if an apologist for just one faction of one religion or philosophical outlook has co-opted the article as a platform for a personal view about the nature of prophecy, and prophets. It isn't accurate, for example, to assert that many or most prophets "are unremarkable" except for the "gift" of prophecy: On the contrary, prophets or alleged prophets in every culture and religion and nation and society have been remarkable men and women. 70.242.78.37 22:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Is there a source that suggests Nebuchadrezzar predated Moses? The first Nebuchadrezzar is dated from about 1146 BC to 1123 BC, but I know of no record that suggests he was a prophet. Moses expereinced his first revelation in 1314 BCE. The second Nebuchadrezzar II is known from the Book of Daniel, but Daniel was not a prophet and certainly not Nebuchadrezzar II (c 630-562 BC).

I will have a look, but it seems to me these were not my edits since I had not edited this article for months.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 06:48, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Nabu - The etymology of his name is disputed. It could be derived from the root nb´ for "to call or announce", meaning something like "He who has called".--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 06:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I find multiple problems with a couple of drastic revisions you've made to the article, not so much with the individual corrections and edits you've made. In late August 2007 and now, you are trying to conform the article to your own religious views, which are evidently a form of conservative Judaism. How would you like it if an atheist or a Muslim or Baptist or Reform Jew radically revised the article prophet to reflect their own opinions? I don't want to point-for-point argue with you, arguments involving religious and political POV are almost always unconstructive, and usually generate resentments galore. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" -- and the introduction to the article wasn't bad, until you altered it. For example, you replaced Abrahamic Religion with Judaism, as if unaware Judaism is an Abrahamic religion. 70.243.229.217 (talk) 07:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, this is Wikipedia. If you are not prepared to discuss the edits with other editors, you may not be in the right place. I thought it was "broke". Have you read the article on Abrahamic religions? Aside from the fact that no one is obligated to use the term, it is a claim. This claim is based on Islam, and is unsubstantiated. I am not going to argue with you on the right and wrong of the use of the term, but only say that in the context of the subject the views on prophets are so diverse among even the "Abrahamic" religions that it is unwarranted to lump them all into one. In any case, I do not appreciate being called "vandalistic". If you have a problem with any one of the edits I made, please discuss first...after you register as a user.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 07:51, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I discussed the edits, but again, am not interested in arguing religious POV with you. Nor am I interested in edit warring with you. I've requested, and will request again, that an administrator monitor your edits to this article, and will accept their decisions. 70.243.229.217 (talk) 08:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

On the plus side, I see the wisdom in listing Judaism, Christianity and Islam in chronological order instead of just the phrase "--each Abrahamic Religion." Others may disagree, but either characterization is acceptable enough to me. 70.243.229.217 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:07, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I also agree with your replacing the obscure term numinous with the well-known term supernatural, and with other edits you've recently made in the body of the article. I guess all I'm urging is that you be extra-careful when modifying the introduction to any article about a super-controversial term such as Prophet. For comparison, the introduction to the article Prophecy could use improvement, but I plan to leave it alone unless the introduction to the article Prophet becomes similarly awkward. 70.243.229.217 (talk) 08:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not interested in discussing religious POV with anyone in Wikipedia.

If you stop reverting my edits, and tell me what it is that you find wrong with them, point by point, you may find I am not unreasonable.

I am rebuilding prophecy from scratch, almost. I seem to be having hard time explaining the difference between prophecy, and the belief in it.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 08:52, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes, it appears you are only trying to "rebuild" the sectarian POV you believe the article should espouse. Nevertheless, I don't mind your deleting the paragraph which was basically an unnecessary re-statement of the lede, and then adding a version of it as an intro to the section entitled Judaism. 70.243.229.217 (talk) 09:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is my problem with you 70.243.229.217 - although edits sometimes depend on changes of one word, or even a part of it, you make blanket statements about what I did without referring to specific edits although I had made many.

This makes it impossible for me to understand what it is that you disagree with.

A Wikitruth - everyone has a bias!

I am going to restore the version I most recently edited. PLEASE take time and note in point fashion where you disagree, ok?--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 09:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Judaism

Ok what is the problem with

In Judaism, a prophet is seen as a person who is selected by, and speaks as a formal representative of God, and the intention of the message is always to effect a social change to conform to God's desired standards initially specified in the Torah dictated to Moses.

--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 09:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Who said there is a problem with that particular edit? No need to reply (although you undoubtedly will!), anyone else is welcome to examine my attempts to discuss things with you on this page, in order to see what I'm up against. So forget it. I give up. Go ahead and tailor the article to all your religious preferences, see if I care. 70.243.229.217 (talk) 12:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)