Talk:San Bernardino County, California

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We must stop the vandalizm on this board.

Somebody again attempted to damage this article.

Someone is obsessed with trying to add opinionated and non-NPOV info, and attempted to delete new information that has been added the past few weeks, and I caught it and reinstated the newer, NPOV info.

Crime section is deleted, but not gang violence

San Bernardino county isn't about crime or gangs, but a place where upper-class and white-collar professionals have moved to in lagrge numbers. There are white supremacists in the county though, like the California Golden Knights of the Ku Klux Klan based in Fontana and the National Association for Advancement of white people in Rialto (san Bernardino). I recall former representative David Duke, a self-claimed racist and former klansman bought a mansionette in Fontana. There is some Aryan Nations/Neo-Nazi gang activity like the Nazi Low Riders in Ontario/Chino known for carjacking, drug trafficking and harassment of minorities. We need to write new topics and more articles on San Bernardino county, not limited to the negative. + 207.200.116.201 04:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

This article is just so wrong, and is a disgrace to the Wikipedia community

Why the desire to protect/lock an article that is so biased against San Bernardino County?

There are lots of great places in San Bernardino County.

The gang section is just unacceptable, and yet is protected by someone out of the country who doesn't even live in San Bernardino County?

What happened to the talk page that used to be here, and had protests against this smearing?

This article, or more accurately, this smear campaign against San Bernardino County, is a disgrace to the Wikipedia Community!!!

As an objective third party, I can't say I find this article unreasonable. It states unbiased facts -- if there are positive aspects of San Bernardino County that you feel are neglected, please add them. However, removing content just because you don't like it is considered antisocial in just about any online community.

While there are a number of contentious articles on Wikipedia that acts as hotspots for manifest bias, this genuinely doesn't seem to be one of them :)

Adrian Lamo 04:43, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Unbiased? (Thanks for reading.)

Thanks for responding.

Just as one example, can you really say this is "unbiased"?

Quote: "San Bernardino County is infamous for its gang activity."

This is not only absurd, it's just plain wrong. The county is huge, and has many nice places, and yes, a few rough places, too, but it certainly is not quote "infamous".

This section really needs to be rewritten, as numerous people correctly pointed out on the previous talk page before it was deleted just recently.

Thanks for reading.

-)

Well, you're right that the section sticks out, which is unfortunate. Some of the language could be improved, too. I've edited that section ever so slightly to make it a bit more neutral, but can't (and wouldn't) outright remove factual content. I am of the belief that as the article evolves, the gang section will become less prominent. Is there anything specific you want to add to this article?

Adrian Lamo 04:58, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it could be rewritten as some places in san bernardino county are infamous for gang activity? I live in rialto, and we have 1.5 times the national average for violence but that doesn't make it infamous for it's gang activity. san berdoo is the eighteenth most dangerous city in the us and they're only a couple miles away but rialto is much safer it seems. showing just how spotty the gang violence is. - signed by anon IP

The article has a section about incidence of crime in the county back in 2006, but where did the information come from? It's unsourced for one thing and the other, there's concern the crime activity issue in San Bernardino is overemphasized or biased against the county. + 71.102.3.86 (talk) 04:15, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Much better already. I'm impressed.

That's much better. I'm impressed with Wikipedia.

I think it's still a bit harsh, though.

I agree, the best way is to further develop the article.

Like you said, I'll look up some more information, and be back later to contribute..

Sorry I don't know enough about the area to immediately do more. I'll add this page to my watchlist, and remember to add content if I come across anything that seems worth adding.

Articles aren't intended to flatter or demean any topic, place, or person. Thanks for your patience while this one develops, and for taking the time to state an opinion :)

Cheers. Adrian Lamo 05:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

We must stop the vandalizm on this board.

We must stop the vandalizm on this board.

Somebody again attempted to damage this article.

Someone attempted to delete new information that has been added the past few weeks, and I caught it and reinstated the newer, NPOV info.

Certainly, the county and cities articles (Fontana, Victorville and Redlands are constantly changed without wikipedia approval). Some of the subjects changed relate to race, income class and demographics that many readers didn't like. References to Fontana, which the wikipedia article states "a town known for lower-income whites", is fooled around with. Fontana does have large African American, Slavic, Mexican (Latino) and Japanese communities, but I check it often to find it was deleted. The city is changing, growing fast and more newcomers are racially diverse, so I don't find it inaccurate. Lower-income whites aren't the majority anymore in the San Bernardino area, even the High desert communities are new homes to "yuppies" and commuters whom work in the Los Angeles area. + 207.200.116.201 04:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Should we eliminate the Crime section?

Maybe we should just eliminate the crime section? It looks like several people have been modifying it, some with NPOV and others with an opinionated POV, and it still isn't a NPOV. Also, it doesn't seem to add much to the article.

I don't think it is so bad. There certainly is crime in the county. I'm not sure what happened to the one reference but we can fix that. If there is a way to make it more NPOV, then go for it. -Will Beback 21:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

the crime stats needs to be moved to public safety. none of the other southern california counties have crime set up like so. it should be in the public safety. if not the article does not read well.Javiern (talk) 22:05, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Repaired with NPOV

The page was again damaged by someone with a biased agenda (the pro-gang troll), and I repaired with the more NPOV on file.

It looks as if you replaced material that had at least one source with material that has none. That isn't progress. Please provide sources to support your assertions. Please do not remove sourced material provided by others. Thanks, -Will Beback 23:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Mountain time?

The time zone currently shows up as "Mountain," although the source (correctly) says Pacific? - signed by anon IP

Incorrect, unless you referring to the Colorado River where the time zone boundary is, only the Arizona side is Mountain time and does not observe daylight savings time. + 71.102.3.86 (talk) 04:13, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Question on meaning...

Does "The county is larger in area than the states of Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, and Delaware combined. Any of those states could be replaced in the list by New Jersey, Vermont, or New Hampshire." mean what it appears to? If so, does anyone else think that that happens to be the most completely awkward phrasing possible? 68.39.174.238 20:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Alaska borough comparison

San Bernardino County is the largest "county" in the US, which the article states, but it is not the largest "county-equivalent," because several Alaska boroughs are larger:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boroughs_and_census_areas_in_Alaska

This is already mentioned in the San Bernardino County article, but whoever wrote it designated the Yukon-Koyukuk Census Area as the largest county-equivalent in the US, which is arguably not correct at all. Like much of Alaska, Yukon-Koyukuk is in the vast "unorganized borough" of Alaska and thus not part of a county-equivalent.

The largest then would be the North Slope Borough: North Slope Borough http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Slope_Borough%2C_Alaska

I'm going to change the article to reflect that, but I'm just putting out the reasons why now, just in case Yukon-Koyukuk was someone's baby.

By the way, as someone who grew up in Orange County, I've always liked San Bernardino County — the vast, open desert is way cool, and the people I know in San Berdo's "Inland Empire" cities are all great people. Why someone would come to Wikipedia to trash San Bernardino County is beyond me. Sure, there's some crime, but that's true everywhere in California, including Orange County (and not just Santa Ana). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kushibo (talk • contribs) 18:30, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Size

I understand that it is big, but the intro is meant to summarize the content of the article, and a whole paragraphtwo paragraphs in the intro telling us just how big San Bernardino County is comparatively are a little excessive. I have stripped most of it out... it was a little interesting, but it was a bit repetitive and the relevance is debatable. --Node (talk) 12:14, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

It's still (or is again) too big. A sentence saying it's the biggest in the country would suffice. Lexicon (talk) 17:03, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Named for....

The county is clearly named after the city of san bernardino, just like riverside county is named after riverside city, the same is for San Diego County. NOw the city is named after Saint Bernardine, not county, see source/reference. House1090 (talk) 05:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

nonsense...bernadino is the namesake for both by extension. --emerson7 05:32, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

please reference {{Infobox U.S. County}} for template guidance. --emerson7 05:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Per Spanish and Indian place names of California: their meaning and their romance the name comes from Saint Bernardinus, and was initially applied to the peak before the founding of the town. The county, peak, city, and many other items get their name from the Saint. List of counties in California uses the same source text and covers all the county name etymologies. -Optigan13 (talk) 07:32, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

citations

if you guys are going to put information about the county, IT NEEDS TO BE CITED. if not i am going to delete it.75.25.19.115 (talk) 21:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

for example the word Encyclopedia

a work that contains information on all branches of knowledge or treats comprehensively a particular branch of knowledge usually in articles arranged alphabetically often by subject

then you cite it like so "encyclopedia." Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. 2009.

Merriam-Webster Online. 16 November 2009 <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/encyclopedia> so if i see no citations on this article, i will delete it because it has no prof that it is actually cited workJaviern (talk) 22:01, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Controversies

A recent edit was made about a possible change of county seat. It appears that a newspaper columnist "heard some say that it would be good if the county seat moved", and wrote this article. I do not believe this kind of speculation by a single person should be included in an encyclopedia article. Any other thoughts? Thanks, Alanraywiki (talk) 00:30, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

And I quote "...local interests in the county's West End have argued for the county seat to be relocated from San Bernardino to "the more viable and growing cities of Ontario or Rancho Cucamonga" (their words, not mine.) They have even proposed renaming the county "Arrowhead County." This is not by 1 person but by many people wanting to change the county seat to a ciy in the western end area of San Bernardino County. I think that whether or not the city allows the county to build the so called government tower, the faith of Sb as having the county seat is on the line. May I say that the writer of the article is involved with the city, I believe he is on the city council. House1090 (talk) 00:55, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

It's an editorial by the city attorney intended to sway the reader that letting the county build a new center in SB would forestall "relocating the county seat." There is nothing to suggest that anything like this is currently being considered, or that it would be "controversial" if it were. So, WP:NOTSOAP and WP:NOTCRYSTAL both apply. Amerique^dialectics 01:02, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The reason why I put it was to let threader know that there are people wanting to change the county seat and county name. House1090 (talk) 01:05, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

But Penman doesn't name them, so we don't know who they are, or where he is quoting from. It's just a rumor at this point, an artificial controversy, designed to get the reader to think: "the city better let the county build wherever it wants or the county could hold a vote to move the seat elsewhere" kind of thing. Amerique^dialectics 01:26, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay I see your point. I will see if I find any other sources about a county seat move, if not I will delete it today. House1090 (talk) 01:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

i heard both county relocation and renaming idea. from the history books located in the county libraries, the name change is an old idea from the early 1900. the county seat relocation almost happened in the early 1920's. it would have been moved to the big bear area(there was a vote and the relocation idea lost by less than 10 votes), the current proposal is because this is the way of getting the county to relocate its offices. the county wants to be in a new building. its been proposed by the city council of san bernardino to take the spot where currently the falling apart known mall as carousel mall. they would tear the mall down and build a high rise just like the city civic center were the city offices are located75.26.156.205 (talk) 02:35, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

county flag

why is there no image of the county flag75.26.156.205 (talk) 02:27, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

quiero tomar un examen para el certified food worker —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.62.1.230 (talk) 15:25, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Alternate name - St Berdoo?

As a student of etymology, I am fascinated by this abbreviation. Where does this name come from? Googling this name shows mainly tatoo references which doesn't seem likely :) Old_Wombat (talk) 09:25, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Temecula inclusion

I couldn't help but notice that the table of companies derived from the Chamber of Commerce statistics includes Temecula, even though Temecula is actually part of Riverside County, not San Bernardino County. However it doesn't seem right to edit data derived from an external source. thoughts? Keithh (talk) 16:01, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

I noticed this as well, but I was mostly baffled as to how the County of Riverside would employ more people in San Bernardino County than SB County itself. Upon further review of the cited source, it appears that these stats are for the Inland Empire as a whole. That should probably be clarified on the page and more accurate statistics should replace these. (I'm sure they must be available through the state or county websites, right?) Jayfr (talk) 08:38, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Climate

Not a bad article, but it is missing a "climate" subsection under geography. (And, no, I don't have one in my back pocket!)

BTW, you could probably move towns/cities under "government" if you wished. Student7 (talk) 00:27, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Bogus employment figures

The "County of Riverside" is the largest employer in the San Bernadino County ? Oh really ? How does that work, then ? This defies basic credibility. Those figures come from the website of the San Bernardino Chamber of Commerce. Is the geographical scope of the San Bernardino Chamber of Commerce, precisely coterminous with the actual county ?Eregli bob (talk) 23:09, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Another clue as to the accuracy of the Chamber of Commerce list: UC Riverside is listed twice, with different numbers of employees, and that duplication does come from the original, cited source. Checking the Chamber of Commerce Website, that source list seems to be a crude cut-and-paste of plain text in typewriter font into a Web template, with poor results. It also appears that the list is static, as the content copied to Wikipedia in 2012 is unchanged at the source in 2014, and may in fact be older than 2012. Although this is a published source, it may not be reliable. 50.181.30.121 (talk) 20:03, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

BTW, in addition to the article's cited source here, the Chamber of Commerce Website duplicates that list here, with somewhat better formatting. That second copy includes a one-line introduction which may answer the question posed by Eregli bob:

"Below is a list of major employers in San Bernardino and the surrounding areas"

(emphasis added) 50.181.30.121 (talk) 20:33, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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map?

could we not get a proper map of the county, on the article? or perhaps more than 1; topography, towns & roads, climate, etc....

Lx 121 (talk) 05:29, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

(5 years later) Can we please add a proper map to this article, which shows where the settlements are located? The "Big Red Map" is simply not cutting it. Let's strive to make this project as useful and encyclopedic as possible, and not ignore valid comments such as the one above for years at a time. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 07:59, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

We are all tasked with making this article as good as possible. Anybody can edit (or, to be fair, can raise a question). Does the above writer have a good, noncopyrighted, source for such a map? BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 21:33, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Cities in the San Bernardino Valley/Geography

The list of cities in the San Bernardino Valley doesn't include Montclair, incorporated as Monte Vista(1956), name changed to Montclair(1958). Montclair, in San Bernardino County, is bounded on the west by Pomona and Claremont, on the north by Upland,on the east by Ontario, and on the south by Chino.

I don't have a source. I grew up in Montclair and just know these facts, as anyone from the west end of San Bernardino County, with any sense of geography, would. If Upland, Ontario, and Chino are in the San Bernardino Valley, so is Montclair.

03:37, 18 August 2016 (UTC)Bruin75 (talk)On the other hand, on the Wikipedia Pomona Valley page, it lists the San Bernardino County cities of Montclair, Upland, Rancho Cucamonga, and Ontario as being in the Pomona Valley.

On the Wikipedia Upland page it says Upland is in the San Bernardino Valley but no mention of the Pomona Valley.Bruin75 (talk) 03:37, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

San Bernardino County, California redirect?

There is a San Bernardino County, California redirect to this article. This must be circular and wrong. See Kelso Wash. Please correct.--Dthomsen8 (talk) 15:07, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Community Service Districts

Should they be added to the page? they are not cities or towns, but they have semi-autonomous control from the county. All the community service districts have their own board. For example wrightwood residents have control over their sanitation and parks under the wrightwood CSD, but not zoning. so should it be its own section2603:8000:5000:E9D2:C4EC:7244:7262:B40C (talk) 02:36, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Incorrect 1912 election data?

The presidential election data for 1912 looks anomalous and disagrees with the data on the 1912 United States presidential election in California page. Kevink707 (talk) 18:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Election results gone.

Is there a reason as to why the election results table for past elections were wiped from the article? Will it be re-added? SSoto21 (talk) 20:44, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

It is not encyclopedic information. WP:DIRECTORY applies - Wikipedia is not a repository of local voter data, simple as that. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 13:12, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Are you sure that it's not encyclopedic? I've never viewed this info as not encyclopedic. SSoto21 (talk) 15:02, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not sure how directory applies, or how that info isn't encyclopedic. glman (talk) 15:37, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree. That info is absolutely encyclopedic. It’s also on damn near every single county’s page, so there’s clearly an unwritten consensus that it is. I don’t think one random guy’s dissenting opinion should run the day here. Mcleanm302 (talk) 21:00, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

A consensus of editors at WP:County#Content suggestions did not suggest including detailed year-by-year election results. I agree with User:Cristiano Tomás that these are unencyclopedic and unnecessary. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:30, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

The consensus on the general list of what should be included doesn't amount to consensus that things outside of that shouldn't be included. Why do you feel they are unencyclopedic and unnecessary? glman (talk) 19:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

There's a pattern of highly-active Wikipedia members of a certain opinion targeting various topics and arguing with subject matter experts that WP:DIRECTORY is a reason to remove hard-to-find information from Wikipedia for readability's sake. I disagreed with the notion in the Sony EXMOR drama from a couple years back, and I still disagree with it. This will be a test as to whether the polysci Wikipedian community has enough clout to outvote this wrong and harmful view. --71.197.6.249 (talk) 21:24, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

And that one random guy definitely shouldn't be making a significant policy change without a consensus. It's a pretty huge change that should require voluminous input from a variety of editors and users. It also shouldn't happen at a page level. Sviscusi (talk) 20:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

There may be a different outcome this time, but be prepared for admin page-active Wikipedians to dig their heels in on this. I really think there should be more deference to subject matter expert needs. Edwin Herdman (talk) 21:29, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

It's absolutely encyclopedic. That's insane to say otherwise. Page 209 from 1860's The Political Text-Book or Encylopedia for precedent DemocraticLuntz (talk) 20:22, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

There are also literally 5 year old templates e.g. Template:United_States_presidential_election_results_table_header behind this data, that's as consensus as it gets. DemocraticLuntz (talk) 20:31, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Knowing how a county votes in Presidential elections is arguably just as important as almost all other demographic data such as race and registered voter percentage. It would significantly reduce the ability to understand a county from this page if all demographic data was removed. Orange1861 (talk) 20:28, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I am a political scientist and I literally cited this data as one of the great accomplishments of Wikipedia to a friend the other day. This table needs to stay and if it does not, it will damage the quality of Wikipedia going forward and also hurt public knowledge. Jacob F. H. Smith (talk) 20:41, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Obviously there comes a point where you can't display *all* relevant electoral information, like how a county has voted in downballot races, but presidential election history is a great summary of a county's political history, and I argue is equivalent to other demographic data, which nobody takes issue with being displayed on county pages despite WP:DIRECTORY. There's a longstanding, years-long consensus that county pages display presidential election history. XP6287 (talk) 20:49, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Agree generally that removal isn't an improvement. An ideal county page would detail the county's political history in prose, and including a table of presidential election results would be a logical aide to that. The fact that most counties don't yet have the in-depth political history in prose isn't a reason to remove the table though; it's a reason to expand the prose! Elli (talk | contribs) 20:52, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

If you want some background, you should look up the admin page discussions related to Sony EXMOR; there's probably been other communities that have been affected by general pushes for divesting information tables. I would summarize it as subject matter expert needs have been de-prioritized according to the wishes of general Wikipedia editors for readability / terseness. Edwin Herdman (talk) 21:28, 25 June 2024 (UTC)