Talk:Werner Mölders

2nd Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves in 1941?

The article states that he was "awarded the 2nd Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves (Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub) on 21 September 1941". However, this is mentioned in the "Battle of Britain" section of the article. Could it be that he was awarded this medal on 21 September 1940, not 1941? Regards, --Kjetil_r 13:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Good spot! Indeed 1940 is correct. MisterBee1966 (talk) 18:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

"christening" Warplanes & Battleships

I'd say the usage of the expression "christened" for commemorative namings here seems to be somewhat unfortunate. (→Etymology) -- CaffeineCyclist (talk) 23:20, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

100th victory

It says he became the first pilot to surpass 100 in July 1941. But he already had 14 victories in Spain. He passed the 100 mark a month earlier. Dapi89 (talk) 18:04, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Wehrmachtbericht transcript

I'm with the IP that this is superfluous information:

• • Mentioned eleven times in the Wehrmachtbericht (29 May 1940, 6 September 1940, 25 September 1940, 23 October 1940, 26 October 1940, 11 February 1941, 27 February 1941, 18 April 1941, 24 June 1941, 1 July 1941, 16 July 1941)

References

I was not able to find information that it was a recognised award, and the "mentioning in the Wehrmachtbericht" is not covered in 3rd party sources that I could locate. This is currently cited to the collection of Wehrmachtbericht transcripts (primary source), and its value in the article is questionable. K.e.coffman (talk) 17:20, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Have you considered the possibility that your research could be incomplete? You may want to familiarize yourself with the directive by Walther von Brauchitsch dated 27 April 1940. This directive by the Commander-in-Chief of the Army named "Namensnennung im Wehrmachtbericht" (named reference in the Wehrmachtbericht) stated "In the future, the names of soldiers who in an extraordinary manner have distinguished themselves in combat are to be mentioned in the context of military operations. This is to be seen as a very special award. Hence, only deeds which surpass all others are justified to be mentioned before the German people." The verbiage to this text can be found here. You should look for additional literature dealing with this directive, and potentially other directives. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 18:25, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

This is a primary source, and is insufficient for establishing the stand-alone notability of the Wehrmachtbericht mention as a recognised award, rather than a propaganda program. I conducted a fairly extensive search for secondary sources, with the help of a German speaker, here: Talk:Wehrmachtbericht#Military commendation?. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:33, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Coffman, you're not a source either and your 'research' counts for far less than the source Misterbee provided. Because you and another German couldn't find any corroborating information doesn't mean anything.

Campaigning for the Wehrmachtbericht text to be removed is one thing; agitating for all mention it to be banished from wikipedia altogether is not acceptable. He was mentioned in this report. That is a fact, whether you like it or not. It brought his name to national (and international) attention. Dapi89 (talk) 08:57, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, MisterBee1966 provided a primary source. But it's not been noted in reliable secondary sources, and is thus indiscriminate amount of information. Are there RS available that covered this? The language that MB cites (This is to be seen as a very special award) supports my contention that it was a propaganda exercise: i.e. this should be seen as a special honour by the German public, but it is not actually an award. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:15, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

For heaven's sake, we've been over this and over this!! K.e.coffman—There are many reasons to use the Wehrmachtbericht as a source, as a reliable source. Similar sources are considered "reliable". It is comparable, I believe, to the Mention in Dispatches, which, generally, as I understand it, was considered to a prerequisite for other awards for gallantry, heroism, etc. Contemporary newspapers are often used, also, to gather information about an individual's service: was it propaganda? Possibly. Is propaganda necessarily false? Absolutely NOT. To discard something that might or might not be propaganda is to throw out an important source of information. The fact that Mölders was mentioned in the Wehrmachtbericht 11 times (another fact) is important. The German armed forces held his behavior and actions as important, commendable, and worthy of modeling. We cite frequently the London Times, the New York Times, and other newspapers to comment on someone's military service? Certainly they were also used to promote the courage and heroism of other servicemen and women. Why not the Wehrmachtbericht? Because it's German? auntieruth (talk) 19:20, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

First of all, a mentioning in the Wehrmachtbericht was considered to be an "award", or a special honor, if you will. In his work Der deutsche Wehrmachtbericht, 1939-1945 (1962) Erich Murawski is quite explicit on this. (I will provide precise page numbers, if needed.) Of course Murawski with his background as being one of the most important and influential figures of German Wehrmachtpropaganda (see David Uziel on that) is a highly biased source. But also Felix Römer, one of the younger generation German military historians, recognizes the mentioning in the Wehrmachtbericht as an "award" (Auszeichnung) among others (Kameraden, 2012, page numbers, if needed). Therefore I would consider mentioning it. It would help, however, if that information was put into its historical, i.e. its propagandistic context. A discussion of Mölder's image as it was being built by Nazi propaganda and transposed into the post war era is missing from the article. (Yes, it's been covered by RS.) The Wehrmachtbericht itself, however, i. e. its content, is not a reliable source. I hope it is beyond question that both the Wehrmachtbericht and contemporary newspapers from Nazi Germany are outright propaganda and not in the same league as the London Times and the NYT. If not, please consult Uziel and even Murawski, and there is plenty of more literature on the subject. Thus, propaganda might tell the truth here and there, but you'll need other, RS to make that point. Otherwise it is WP:OR anyway.--Assayer (talk) 00:23, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

@Assayer: I would be interested in seeing what Felix Römer has to say on the subject, as his book (Kameraden) was well reviewed. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:05, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Römer does not write about the specifics of orders and awards as such, but embedds them into the context of the Wehrmacht as a social entity. In his chapter about the soldierly ethos Römer devotes a subchapter to military awards. He notes that while today awards of WW II are mainly the domain of dubious collectors of militaria, for the soldiers of the Wehrmacht orders and awards were of the utmost importance. Awards were symbols of military acchievements and rendered enormous social prestige among the Nazi armed forces. To display an award or order was the ultimate proof of soldierly masculinity. With awards the soldiers were motivated to risk their lives and encouraged to be brave, committed and willing to sacrifice. Awards were particularly important for offficers, because it depended on their awards whether they were respected by their men. According to Römer the most important order was the Iron Cross. Other respected honors were the Wound Badge and the Close Combat Clasp. He also mentions medals and cuff titles and explains that mentionings in daily dispatches, in the Wehrmachtbericht or in the Honour Roll were used to single out whole units. Römer summarily speaks of these as "awards". (Kameraden, Munich 2012, pp. 131-2) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Assayer (talk • contribs) 02:03, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you; that's pretty much confirms what I said above. These mentions may have been important to the German personnel in the moment, but it does not mean that the literature considers them to be equally important. Not everything that is verifiable needs to be in the article, especially when based on a primary source.

Please also see: Category for discussion: Personnel referenced in the Wehrmachtbericht.

K.e.coffman (talk) 07:50, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

This is not a question of whether the literature considers them to be equally important or not. By "literature" I assume that you refer to academic historiography, Because there is "literature", i.e. printed stuff, which indeed considers those awards as important as the Wehrmacht and its personnell did at the time. But during the last two decades military historiography, too, has scrutinized and analyzed military orders and awards, because they were important to the German personnel at the time. Those awards have been used to describe the soldier's mentality and behavior and the workings of the military system in general. See besides Römer, the chapter on orders and awards by Christoph Raß "Menschenmaterial": Deutsche Soldaten an der Ostfront (2003) or the hints given by Neitzel in his review article on the Waffen-SS. The point is, how you present these mentions in the Wikipedia, particularly when dealing with a highly propagandized person as Mölders. If the mentions of Mölders in the Wehrmachtbericht are dealt with in the literature on Mölders, is not clear, because only a fraction of the available literature has been used for this article. --Assayer (talk) 19:21, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Update on the literature

This article is dated when it comes to the literature being used. Obermaier/Held is from 1982 (1st. ed.) and considered to be "hagiographic". The most respected biography is by Kurt Braatz of 2008, only listed here under further reading. See the review by Heiner Möllers from the MGFA (H-Soz-Kult, in German) and also Martin Moll's review in Militärgeschichtliche Zeitschrift 68 (2009), pp. 224-226. Important essays, particularly on the question of "Reversal of honours" are Klaus Schmider, "German military tradition and the expert opinion on Werner Mölders: opening a dialogue among scholars." In: Global War Studies (formerly World War Two Quarterly), Vol. 7 (2010), Nr. 1, pp. 6-29. Bernd Lemke, "Moral Micrology vs. Subsumption: A methodical perspective on the "Mölders Case"," in: Global War Studies, Vol. 7 (2010), Nr. 1, pp. 123-134. More recent Wolfgang Schmidt, "Organisiertes Erinnerung und Vergessen in der Bundeswehr. Traditionspflege am Beispiel der „Causa Mölders“." In: Nina Leonhard u.a. (ed.), Organisation und Gedächtnis. Soziales Gedächtnis, Erinnern und Vergessen – Memory Studies, Wiesbaden 2016, pp. 183-223. Available online are Klaus Schmider, "Werner Mölders und die Bundeswehr: Anmerkungen zum Umgang mit der Geschichte der Wehrmacht," Portal Militärgeschichte and Heiner Moellers, "Mölders und kein Ende? Eine Replik auf Klaus Schmider," doi:10.15500/akm.05.09.2016. Simply using Hagena is not enough.--Assayer (talk) 19:48, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Tags

The article is using a number of POV & less than RS sources:

• Obermaier (1989): a dated (originally published in the 1960s), questionable source; see discussion at de.wiki on an attempted promotion of a list covering Luftwaffe fighter pilots to a Featured List: link. The nomination failed mostly because of the source, which was described as weak and dated. One of the comments was: The author is not to be criticized for the fact that no scientific literature has been used, because there are none. Serious military historians are concerned with other things. According to WP:Q, the lack of scientific literature points to a lack of relevance.
• Obermaier, Ernst; Held, Werner (1996) -- this is a collection of primary materials, with the title saying such: "Jagdflieger Oberst Werner Mölders – Bilder und Dokumente [Fighter Pilot Colonel Werner Mölders - Images and Documents]. These typically includes war-time propaganda records such as newspaper clippings.
• Prien, Jochen (1997) -- published by Schiffer Publishing, a WP:QS publisher which is pretty much the U.S. equivalent of J.J. Fedorowicz
• Etc.

In view of these concerns, and the amount of excessive intricate detail, the tags added by Creuzbourg are justified. I'll restore the them. Please also see Talk:Werner_Mölders#Update_on_the_literature immediately above. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:45, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I note that Schiffer Publishing is said to be questionable; has that ever been officially decided somewhere on Wikipedia? I don't have or use any of their books at this time; I used to have one or two; but, the point is when was a determination made? Kierzek (talk) 16:58, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

@Kierzek: I don't believe that Wikipedia maintains such a list; I go by WP:QS: "have a poor reputation for checking the facts, lack meaningful editorial oversight or have an apparent conflict of interest". In the case of Schiffer, being equated to J.J. Fedorowicz Publishing is not a sign for reliability or neutrality. Then the tag is appropriate: "Some of this article's listed sources may not be reliable". I hope this answers the question. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:16, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I know there is no list but meant a consensus or determination by a board; such as the RS board. Kierzek (talk) 23:27, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't think is crucial as the book itself (original German ed) has been described as hagiographic by an MGFA historian. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:37, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I deal with "experts" all the time and one thing I have learned is many can look at the same evidence or facts and reach complete opposite opinions. I know nothing about the works mentioned above but one should tread carefully; one opinion is not "dispositive". Kierzek (talk) 12:42, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Gerhard von Seemen

I removed the citations to Seemen. It's a dated, less than RS source; in any case, two remaining sources are plenty for material that's unlikely to be challenged.

Specificly on Seemen, pleas see this 2013 discussion: Recent deletions of unreliable sources. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:04, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Unilateral deletions, edits, etc. of Good and Featured Articles

K.e.coffman, I object to your unilateral deletions etc of material in Featured Articles. This seems like it has one intent: to drive a specific discussion of WWII pilots in the direction you want, not to present the information that the original editor/s deemed relevant to a biography of the individual. This seems clearly the intent, especially since the better part of the "discussion" you present is cut and pasted from other "discussions" of similar articles, regardless of previous efforts to mediate this behavior, and regardless of previous efforts to discuss this with you! auntieruth (talk) 13:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

@Auntieruth55: Which Unilateral deletions, edits do you specifically object to in this article? K.e.coffman (talk) 14:24, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Recent edits

Preserving here by providing this link; pls see edit summaries for rationale. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:46, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Adding diff; pls see edit summary for rationale. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:47, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

@Ian Rose: Re: this revert, I would consider details on the subject's service in the infantry to be immaterial. Sample:

• Mölders joined an infantry regiment of the Reichswehr in Allenstein, East Prussia on 1 April 1931. After completing his basic military training in October 1932, he transferred to the Military School Dresden. On 1 June 1933, he successfully completed his training in Dresden and was promoted to ensign. He again was transferred, this time to the 1st Prussian Pioneer Battalion (Infantry Regiment 2) at the Pioneer School in Munich. During his training years, Mölders made his first attempt to fulfil his dream of flying and volunteered for pilot training, but was declared unfit for flying. He tried again and was given conditional permission (bedingt tauglich—with constraints) to begin flight training.
• After his promotion to Oberfähnrich on 1 February 1934, Mölders began his pilot training at the Deutsche Verkehrsfliegerschule (German transport flying school) in Cottbus, lasting from 6 February 1934 to 31 December 1934. ...

References

This looks much more streamlined to me:

• Mölders joined the Reichswehr in April 1931 and served in the infantry. Mölders volunteered for pilot training; after initially being rejected as unfit for flying, he was given a conditional permission. In February 1934, Mölders began his pilot training at the Deutsche Verkehrsfliegerschule (German transport flying school) in Cottbus.

References

Given the WP:QS sources, I find this level of detail to be undue. Is there some middle ground here? K.e.coffman (talk) 02:58, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Editorialising

I trimmed the section on post-war commemoration. The article veers at times into editorialising and possibly synthesis, such as here, by using the subject's membership in the Catholic youth organisation (in 1925-1931) as evidence of an ambivalence towards the regime:

• Furthermore, Mölders had joined the Catholic youth organisation Bund Neudeutschland (Union for New Germany) on 1 October 1925 and had been a youth leader of the organisation from 1929 to 1931. The Third Reich clearly had considered the Bund Neudeutschland as a threat: The Völkischer Beobachter (the official newspaper of the party) had reported on 26 January 1938 that the Bund had been outlawed for its proven subversive activities against the Reich, based on the Verordnung des Reichspräsidenten zum Schutz von Volk und Staat (Reich Presidential Decree for the Protection of People and State) of 28 February 1933.

References

Please see diff for other examples. Please let me know if there any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:44, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Deletions of details

Hi @K.e.coffman:, I'm reading your deletions labeled as "trimming excessive detail" etc and finding that your trimming is actually cutting out information that might be interesting. I'm never sure if I'm citing edits correctly, but I think this is one here. I understand your goal to insure that the Nazi hagiography is not promoted, however, I'm wondering if we are throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. Do others find this to be the case? @Peacemaker67:, & @Ian Rose: & @Sturmvogel 66: & @MisterBee1966: and @WP:MILHIST coordinators: @Kierzek: & @Creuzbourg: & @Assayer: (I'm pinging a lot of people so that no one feels left out!) Cheers, auntieruth (talk) 19:32, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• Speaking for myself, I see no problem with the trimmings made by K.e.coffman. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:40, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

• OOOPs, sorry, Iazyges, I missed you in the sweep of people who might be interested. It was unintentional.  :) auntieruth (talk) 20:16, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

I would like to know, which details exactly might be interesting. Mölder's "dream of flying" or perhaps his "nausea and vomiting" or that he married "shortly before his death"? Is this level of detail really encyclopedic? Also I am not sure whether K.e.coffman really did this trimming because of "Nazi hagiography". --Assayer (talk) 20:59, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

I would use the various national/state dictionaries of biography as examples of what is the minimum detail required to be comprehensively encyclopaedic, as these are often the basis for articles on en WP. For example, the types of details that K.e.coffman often deletes as "excessive" or "intricate" are the sorts of things that are often included in the Australian Dictionary of Biography. For example, this entry for an Australian Brigadier General (one-star general) mentions the father's occupation and religious beliefs and the fact that he was a lay minister. It also mentions what his maternal grandfather's occupation was. It also states what schools he went to, what job he did before joining up, and describes his career after military service, as well as when and where he got married, who to, and how many kids he had. It also includes anecdotes from his service, and all notable awards he received. The inclusion of this detail is not hagiographical. This is a minimum level of detail for biographical articles. I consider the persistent deletion of this level of detail from biographical articles, as practised by K.e.coffman, to be tendentious. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:50, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Maybe we are talking about different cuts. I do not see any of these information being cut in the diff provided by auntiruth, or being reinserted by IanRose[1] Anyway, I find the entry on Mölders in the NDB to be less detailed even after those cuts, featuring much less anecdotes than both Wikipedia and the exemplary article from the Austalian DB. Or take the level of details in the even more concise article in the NDB on Hans-Ulrich Rudel and compare that to Hans-Ulrich Rudel in Wikipedia. The author of the entry on Mölders, Horst Boog, strongly defended Mölders' character in subsequent debates, so he certainly cannot be accused to have skipped over those anecdotes because of tendentiousness. Besides, if you mention when Mölders met his future wife, should we also mention that back then she was the wife of Mölder's superior? Or that she was five months into her pregnancy when the couple finally got married (with the help of Göring)?--Assayer (talk) 15:36, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

I confess I'm a little confused about the purpose of this discussion. If it is purely about deletion of overly detailed information, I'd agree with most of the deletions. If it is about deleting material because it comes from sources that are consider NR because they are POV, I might have something to say. --Lineagegeek (talk) 00:03, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, this helps streamline the information, which is in line with CONCISE, however Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia and as such I like to read for the details. Striking the balance needed between these points of view is always tricky, all the more so with controversial subjects. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:17, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

I generally fall toward the latter of the two positions highlighted by Tom. This is also the general attitude of editors who write FA biographies, it seems. Have a look at any number of FA bios (Nikita Khrushchev, William IV of the United Kingdom, or John Diefenbaker, for instance) and you will see similar level of detail. It's probably nothing unique to biographies - I'm sure all of Ucucha's FAs on rats have more detail than the average paper encyclopedia entry on them.

In general, any large scale change like this to a Featured Article should be discussed beforehand on the article talk page, since the current version represents consensus for what the article should contain, how it should be structured, etc., and the opinion of one or two editors does not trump that. Parsecboy (talk) 10:05, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

• I think I've made itclear that I don't do "diffs" well. Generally speaking, I object to detail being deleted as inconsequential. I don't think it is. I would have enjoyed also reading about Mölders' second wife being his superior's wife (widow?) and that she was 5 months gone when they married. Delete material because it's libelous or whatever, and perhaps the info on the wife and baby would have been. As for Ucucha's rat articles, they are definitely heavy on detail. The joys of an online encyclopedia is that we can do that, and not have to worry about the cost of paper or printing, much less postage. Biography articles I edit are always jammed full of the lovely little details that make a person seem human, that illustrate character and foibles, etc. auntieruth (talk) 18:54, 30 May 2017 (UTC)