Talk:Jews/infobox

Previous discussions concerning this infobox may be found at Talk:Jew.

User:M.V.E.i. has repeated changed the image on the the template to Image:Ashfamo1.JPG from Image:Jews.jpg I, as well as Humus sapiens have been reverting him. I do not believe that there is any consensus to change the image. The image was chosen for its balance of man/female and Ashkenazi/Sephardi on Talk:Jew. there has been no discussion to change the image and User:M.V.E.i. does not seem to understand that. Jon513 20:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Revert back from photos of contemporary entertainers

I noticed that a recent edit removed the photos of four Jewish historical figures with a large number of contemporary entertainers. I haven't seen any discussion prior to this change and I'd suggest it be discussed before such a major change is made. Rickterp 21:27, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Definitely not the way to go, but we need to include a Jew (I chose Jon Stewart but it can be anyone) from the 21st century IMO. Paliku 08:18, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Emma Lazarus v Rabbi Lau

Due to the minor edit conflict, I thought this would be a good subject for discussion. Both Emma Lazarus and Rabbi Lau are moderately well-known figures, so either would be a good candidate. One problem with both is that they're both known only in small spheres - Lazarus in the US, Lau in Israel, which makes it difficult to choose one over the other.

An advantage of Lazarus is that is balances the male/female ratio of the template; on the other hand, Rabbi Lau balances the religious/secular ratio.

Any thoughts or comments are much appreciated! Daniel^C/_T+ 14:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

On a purely aesthetic note, I do believe that the Lazarus picture fits better with the others. That's purely stylistic though, not informational. Daniel^C/_T+ 14:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The Lau image is, unfortunately, not to the same relative scale as the others; a cropped photo, zooming in closer, would be more effective. Perhaps someone with the graphics editing skills can accomplish this. As for the main issue, does this have to be an either-or, and cause a tug-of-war, or is there room for both images (i.e., total of five)? Here again, I defer to someone proficient in manipulating the graphics. Whoever said Emma Lazarus was an unknown woman has some homework to do, which I hope leads to a pleasant discovery regarding what she is most noted for, and where it is inscribed. Hertz1888 (talk) 15:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

In Israel she is barely known, if any. I think Yisrael Meir Lau is more representive of Jews than Emma. Firstly, he is a Rabbi. Secondly, he dressed in modern Haredi Jew (ultra-orthodox Jews) clothes. Thirdly, he was the chief Rabbi of Israel and fourthly, he is a Holocaust survivor. I think that for that reasons he should be pereferd over Emma the poet. MathKnight Gothic Israeli Jew 15:22, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

As to the either-or issue, I agree that including both might be possible; we should be sure that it doesn't get out of hand though, as is rapidly occurring on Ashkenazi Jews. Introducing a few lesser-known individuals could easily lead to editors adding their own personal favorites, which will have to then be shown to be less worthy in comparison to others in the template - something that I'd personally rather avoid. Einstein, Maimonides, and Meir are obvious choices; Lazarus and Lau less so. Daniel^C/_T+ 15:29, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

There are a few reasons why I think the picture of Lazarus fits better here.

• First, I think the picture works better visually, The fact that her head occupies a substantial portion of the frame and the picture is in black and white like the others makes it a better fit.
• Second, in terms of balance, the template as it is contains two women and two men; two ashkenazim and two sephardim; one scientist, one rabbi/physician/philosopher, one political leader, and one poet. This seems rather well thought out and advantageous to me. Or is it just serendipitous?
• I think there's something to be said for leaving things as they are when they don't have glaring problems. I'd hate to see the template become unstable without clear improvement being made. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 18:22, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The balancing was indeed deliberate, and I'm glad you've appreciated it. See Talk:Jew/Archive_17#Smaller collage for the history.--Pharos (talk) 21:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the talk archive that Pharos provided, I'm very happy to maintain the status quo based on previous consensus (with a dissenting IP editor). While I do agree that having a modern religious figure in the collage is appealing, I don't think that the current proposal outweighs the previously agreed-upon format. If another modern religious figure can be found that matches with the other 3 figures better than what's been suggested here (Rabbi Lau) I would be open to further discussion, but based on the current options I think I'll have to support keeping the Lazarus entry for the template over the Lau replacement. Thanks to all for a reasoned, balanced debate; any further thoughts will still of course be taken fully into account. :) Daniel^C/_T+ 23:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Rabbi Ovadia Yosef with Tefilin and Talit.

I understand your reasons. Emma Lazarus is almost unknown to the folks here in Israel and her picture doesn't have any Jewish characteristics such as clothings. If you want a Sepharadi Rabbi how about Rabbi Ovadia Yosef? Here there is a picture of him with Tefilin and Talit, the religious Jewish clothes. MathKnight Gothic Israeli Jew 11:39, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect to Rabbi Lau, is he known outside of the Haredi community in Israel? Until his picture was added to the template, I had never heard of him. (I'm an American Jew with a solid Jewish education for somebody who didn't attend a yeshiva.) Most American Jews, and many times more non-Jewish Americans, have heard of Lazarus.

I wasn't aware of the care that went into the four portraits, but they seem reasonable to me. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 05:11, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Rabbi Lau was the Chief Rabbi of Israel and also mentioned as nominated to presidentcy of Israel. He, and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, are very well known in Israel. I think their pictures, with religious costumes, are more representive of a Jews than a picture of American poet that not many recognize. MathKnight Gothic Israeli Jew 10:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe the current status quo should be mantained as well. 99.237.129.80 (talk) 03:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Shame of those representing Jews!

Three of these Jews were secular and were not shomer shabbat a deciding factor as to whether one is part of the Jewish community. The Jews pictured should be Jews in the true sense of the word, i.e. committed Jews, otherwise Jesus may as well appear?! Chesdovi (talk) 02:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

All three you speak of lived their entire lives as Jews, and nothing but. 99.237.129.80 (talk) 03:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Populations

Please note that the questions of the Jewish populations shown in the template was discussed in February-March 2008 at Talk:Jew#Populations. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 20:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

New image uploaded

I created a new image. There are two reasons: 1. The image included Golda Meir. We should keep politics out. Many dont like her in Israel after the Yom Kippur War. 2. The previous image havent showed enough the Jewish contribution to many aspects of human life. Shpakovich (talk) 20:38, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

And I restored the previous image. Again.

Please read the discussion above. If you think there's a good reason to change the image, make a proposal and wait for a consensus to emerge. Thank you. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 20:49, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

For years people try to change here something and they are brutaly reverted. Lets simply have a vote!!! Shpakovich (talk) 21:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

A vote

There are two proposed images. Choose.

A:

B:

Shpakovich (talk) 20:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

B. Because it shows the Jewish contribution in many directions, and because it doesnt have Golda Meir (we should keep politics out!!! And dont forget that after the Yom Kippur war she is hated by many in Israel). Shpakovich (talk) 21:02, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

First, we don't vote on Wikipedia:We discuss

Second, this has been thoroughly discussed and a consensus reached, although apparently not one that you like.

Third, we have something called WP:3RR on Wikipedia and you are grossly in violation of it. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 21:06, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

For years there were discussion and they brought nothing. Whats the peoblem to do a vote? During a vote a discussion will awake. Vote. Shpakovich (talk) 21:08, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion. I think your statement that "they brought nothing" can be effectively paraphrased as "a consensus formed that I don't like". --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 21:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I tried to discuss, i opened a discussion, i was reverted. During a vote people will say why they support something and that will be a discussion. Shpakovich (talk) 21:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Why should a political figure be kept out of it, aren't Jews involved in politics? Not to deny that discussion can be re-opened, but I thought this was pretty well hashed out already with even compromises on male/female, Sephardi/Ashkenaz, too many photos/too few photos, et cetera, ad nauseam. I say stay with the status quo. Have a good Shabbos! —Elipongo (Talk contribs) 21:20, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The status quo is ugly, its invented by lazy people. The current image is primitive. Look at: Russians, Russians in Ukraine, Arab, Scottish people, Italians, Ukrainians, Han Chinese. Those are good images!!! They havent said "status quo"! Shpakovich (talk) 21:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to changing the image, but I question some of the people in Shpakovich's collage. Pedro Nunes was of Jewish descent, but he was a Christian. Baruch Spinoza was considered a heretic, which doesn't bother me but probably makes him objectionable to many others. If you're trying to avoid politics, why include Joseph Trumpeldor — have you ever heard of the right-wing Betar (Brit Trumpeldor) movement?

Another problem (albeit a minor one) is that many of the images face right. Per WP:MOS#Images, we should try to have left-facing images along the right margin where possible. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 21:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

This article is about Jewish ethnicity. Nunes even if he will become a Budhist wont change the nose. Actually, about the turning of the faces, the dissorder style is even better here. I thought of it to in the begining. Shpakovich (talk) 21:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

(out of sequence outdent) "This article is about Jewish ethnicity. Nunes even if he will become a Budhist wont change the nose." Won't change the nose? What kind of sick garbage is that? Are you interested in improving this article or are you just being disruptive? — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 20:55, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Just a small not on Pedro Nunes - he was not a Jew who converted to catholicism (he was catholic, though - in 1548 he was even knighted with an honorific catholic order by the King of Portugal), he was a New Christian of Jewish origin, that is to say, someone whose ancestors (no one knowns if recent of distant) were Jewish and converted or were forced to convert to catholicism. He never had problems with the Portuguese Inquisition, although two of his grandsons were arrested, Matias Pereira from 1623 to 31 and Pedro Nunes Pereira from 1623 to 32 (they were both released alive and given back their properties, though, which was quite rare). The Ogre (talk) 05:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't metters to the article. You talk about relegion, while this article is about ethnicity. Even if all his grandfathers and grandmothers were Jewish Christians, and he's a second generation born-catholic, ethnicaly he' still jewish. Shpakovich 18:59, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

On a point of information; Shpakovich you say that you've previously tried to open discussion on this but were reverted. I just went through your edit history and I can find no record of such a discussion before today, except your notice diff of how you changed the images on American Jews. Can you please post the diff of where/when to find this reverted old attempt at discussion? Thank you. —Elipongo (Talk contribs) 21:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I talk about the messege i wrote an hour ago. I havent receved a response to it until i was reverted about ten times. And in the history here i saw that alot of people before me tried to change something. Shpakovich (talk) 21:33, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe you mean this diff? While Steve Crossin (talk · contribs) may have been a tad blunt by reverting, polling is not a substitute for discussion and the discussion you opened was not reverted. Furthermore calling other editors lazy is likely a violation of the no personal attacks policy. There's no reason to we can't (yet again) discuss these images, but let's keep the subject the issues and not characterizations of others, okay? Thanks and good shabbos! Logging off for the next 25 hours or so... —Elipongo (Talk contribs) 21:58, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Group A seems more sensible, sticking to famous Jews, rather than obscure Jews or non-Jews. It might make sense to substitute Freud for Lazarus. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

If you substitute Freud for Lazarus, you're replacing a woman with a man and an Sephardic with and Ashkenazi Jew, undoing a carefully thought out balance. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 17:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Why not Emma Goldman instead of Golda Meir? and why not 6 or 8 figures instead of 4 to make everyone satisfied?Yuvn86 (talk) 19:03, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Meir was more famous and achieved more. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

For the Sephardi Jews' article the following was made:

File:Sephardi Jews - mosaic.PNG

And you can see what has been made for other "people" articles:

• Portuguese
  Portuguese
• 
  African Americans
• Italians
  Italians
• 
  Irish Americans
• 
  French
• 
  Spanish

Just though you should know if you didn't already. Cheers. The Ogre (talk) 19:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Usage in 16 other language Wikipedias

I just want to point out that the current portraits image is hosted on the Wikimedia Commons, and is used in 16 other language Wikipedias in addition to English, including the major languages Spanish, French, Japanese, Polish, Portuguese and (important in this instance) Hebrew. This presumably implies some sort of consensus among these projects.--Pharos (talk) 00:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Or perhaps laziness, as Shpakovich suggested. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 02:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Getting ready for an NPOV tag

The current Infobox raises NPOV concerns, as described below. Since I consider it overly Bold/agressive to slap a tag on it now, I am approaching what I consider necessary edits on the talk page first. Thanks Malik, for the population reference above, but I do not believe it has been discussed enough.

• {Infobox Jew} hides very relevant info by the placement of unnatural breaks (i.e. Total, Israel, Others). The data should set the design, currently, political placement appears to set the design.
• The info that this infobox table should show is that there are only two countries in the world with large populations of Jews (both greater by a factor of >10). These two are Israel the US and then, following far behind, all others countries. The NPOV presentation of data necessitates the equal presentation of these two countries, which together and equally comprise 75% of the total population. Anything else is Undue. My read of NPOV is that (with population as the stated basis), Israel and the US are equal. Any other criteria to unequally highlight Israel (like centered and alone versus justified and ‘the rest’) will likely get a multiple issue tag, because that brings in ‘Aliyah/Diaspora-or-not’, which sides politically with Israel/Zionism, rather than the majority Diaspora, and also is not necessarily about Jewry and population. Whichever way you divide any facts below these two, is up to you. Sorting by continental ‘regions’, then population, seems logical and factual for the smaller-population countries.
• Absolute mis-statement of fact: “Regions with significant populations.” There are no ‘regions’ listed, they are countries.
• The countries are not even arranged by ‘region.’ They are presently arranged by population and mix ‘regions’ wildly.
• If the countries were arranged by ‘region,’ then North America would be the largest. Personally, I prefer by country, the basis of the data, it also keeps Israel at the top. If there are any descriptive breaks, they must go below the US position.
• Absolute mis-statement of fact; most countries are listed as “Other significant population centers.” Although there are significant ‘population centers’ around the world, they are not countries. If you keep the list by ‘population centers’, then list Tel Aviv, followed by NYC (per JVL, I believe).
• I do not believe that country populations under, say, 10,000 (and about 0.1% of the total) are truly ‘significant’. Keep the data you want, but this should be re-stated.

Whatever pictures are included at the top of the infobox is up to you, but my read is that the history and diversity of World Jewry can be illustrated better by many more than four pics. I believe that a 12- or 16-pic block would be more representative and likely easier to build a consensus. Adding some life, live people and color would help.

I am not yet technically comfortable about just jumping into the infobox edits, but if nothing comes of my comments, I will learn what is necessary. If my lack of technical knowledge causes a ‘dah’ response regarding my comments, then fill me in as to why these cannot be accommodated. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 13:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Israel is centred as by the template it is the population centre. Not only does it have the highest Jewish population in the world, the only Jewish majority, the historic home of the Jewish people, it is the world's only Jewish state. The United States is a non-Jewish state and Jews in the United States comprise only 2% of the population. Epson291 (talk) 16:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Whether Israel has the largest Jewish population is debatable, as noted above, but being external, I want to stay away from internal religious debates. That Israel is the only country with a majority is absolute fact, and as I noted above, should remain at the top for both demographic and Jewish reasons. But then, for some unknown reason(s), the infobox marginalizes a similar, equal US population by lumping them below the highlighted break as 'also rans', when the numbers indicate a 'dead heat'. This is absolutely undue weight. As this template is only currently linked with one article, Jew, describing a widely diverse people of a specific but similarly diverse religion, it should indicate the weight of their demographics and distribution, not their internal politics. If you feel that Israel is the center and should be centered, I have no problem with that, but NPOV requires the US be similarly centered per the stated facts. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 06:22, 13 April 2008 (UTC) (written prior to comments below)

The format follows all similar infoboxes. Israel contains both the largest number of Jews in the world, but is also the world's only Jewish state, and the only country where Jews form a majority. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jayjg (talk • contribs) 06:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

We've had this discussion before; look at Talk:Jew. I'm in favor of including the United States as a significant population center (it had more Jews than Israel until one or two years ago), but consensus is otherwise.

With respect to your complaints that these are countries and not "regions", they apply to all ethnic templates. There is no reason to criticize this template and not Template:African American ethnicity or Template:Italian ethnicity. The appropriate forum for that discussion is Template talk: Infobox Ethnic group. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 01:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Malik, thanks. This is a valid “‘dah’ response regarding my comments”, which I hadn’t known/considered. I had looked at your population ref above on this page and didn’t see much of what I needed. I landed/posted here coming from the bottom-up, not the top-down; I believe my argument remains valid from that perspective, but am unfamiliar with the top-down, as yet. I assume there are no conflicts between these two perspectives. I will look deeper into that root of my complaint and re-consider its continued applicability and significance. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 06:22, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

CasualObserver, if you will trouble to take a look at Germans, Italians, Spanish people, British people or any of a number of other articles on varioius, groups you will see that the infoboxes in those articles are formatted identically to this one, with the home country of the ethnic group centered at the top and other countries below it in order of raw population numbers. I see no reason to implement any of the suggestions above with the possible exception of removal of the phrase "Other significant populations centers:", which seems not to be found in any similar article. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 03:13, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Steve, thanks too. Please see my comments to Malik, above. I appreciate the support on ‘centers.’ But don’t you also think the wildly confused arrangement/misuse of ‘regions’ is a similarly valid argument? Without yet looking deeper into the global, top-down template side of the debate I have raised, I would still have to say that the current specific listing by decreasing population tends to defeat the purpose of the apparent ‘regional’ basis of an ethnic template. This, for me, brings up more questions than answers. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 06:22, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Similar templates that I've seen follow the same format. You appear to be trying to inject politics into a template which has successfully avoided it until now. Jayjg^(talk) 06:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Jay, I guess I did bring ‘political’ up, outside the photo-related discussion, above, anyway. It appears that you brought one up in the template itself, with your (reverted) ‘Related groups’ edit. I concur with your edit, btw, and not its revert, but I will stay away from those aspects of the template; it seems internal and I am not. I am arguing what I see as the editorial/political separation of numbers, which I believe should be able to speak for themselves. Most of whatever ‘political’ I noted, I tried to keep it in a separate, multiple-issue problem, not yet raised. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 07:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with Jayjg. As for the "Other significant populations centers:", I removed the word "centre" per this discussion. Epson291 (talk) 07:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Epson, I can not understand this post, unless you are talking to Jay elsewhere, or you mean Steve, or a slightly different, earlier quote from me. Thanks for the removal of ‘centers’, but the questionable use of ‘significant’ remains, in relation to all the numbers used and how they have been divided. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 07:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I still see some NPOV questions. Per Malik’s suggestion, I took a look at Template:Infobox Ethnic group and came up with the list below. I cherry-picked a bit to save time, stay away from what I thought to be Far East or Amerindian, get ones that were previously mentioned, ones with similarities or ethnics with which I am personally familiar, or approapriate examples. Editors are free to point out any lack of NPOV they might see, or pick your own. My list and looking into Wiki-template-things show, in fact, that there is little consistency and there is some picking-and-choosing allowable within the template realm. I am still disputing the NPOV of some choices that have been made here. Please look at my choices; I believe you can understand my shorthand, otherwise this has all been a waste of time. I posted here with commitment to NPOV.

Albanians, no centering, large population difference, no organization of countries;

Armenians, no centering, large diff in population, decr’g pop;

Basque people, no centering, large diff, decr’g pop;

Circassians, no centering, large reverse diff, decr’g population;

Danish people, no centering, decr’g pop;

English people, no centering, equal wt for 4 countries;

Greeks, no centering, decr’g pop;

Hazara people, no centering, large diff, decr’g pop;

Hungarian people, no centering, largest pop, followed by geog regions w/ decr’g pop;

Irish people, all centered, mostly decr’g pop;

Javanese people, all centered, by regional and decr’g pop;

Ashkenazi Jews, no centering, decr’g pop;

Cochin Jews, all centered, decr’g pop;

Georgian Jews, all centered, decr’g pop;

Mizrahi Jews, no centering, decr’g pop;

Mountain Jews, no centering, generally decr’g pop;

Sephardi Jews, no centering, decr’g pop;

Kurdish people, no centering, large diff, geog regions w/ decr’g pop;

Latvian people all centered, decr’g pop;

Persian people, no centering, large diff, decr’g pop;

Poles, no centering, decr’g pop;

Punjabi people, all centered, general decr’g pop;

Roma people no centering, alphabetical including homeland w/ large diff;

Romanians, no centering, not all decr’g pop, geog regional mix;

Slovaks, no centering, decr’g pop;

Slovenes, no centering, decr’g pop;

Serbs, no centering, by geog and by regions w/ decr’g pop;

Turkish people, no centering, decr’g pop;

British people, homeland centered, mod’t diff, generally decr’g pop;

Estonians, homeland centered, large diff, rest not, decr’g pop;

Italians, homeland centered, large diff, rest not, decr’g pop;

Palestinian people, homeland centered, mod’t diff, decr’g pop;

Russians, homeland centered, large diff, decr’g pop;

Scottish people, Homeland homeland centered, large reverse diff, decr’g pop;

Sikh, homeland centered, large diff, decr’g pop;

Spanish people, homeland centered, mod’t diff, decr’g pop, to absolute insignificance;

Swedish people, homeland centered, large diff, decr’g pop;

Ukrainians, homeland centered, large pop diff, decr’g pop, rest of world;

Many/most of my specific complaints remain valid. Others or ones with aspects that may need clarification will be brought to Template:Infobox Ethnic group, as suggested. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 07:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

It looks to me like you're nitpicking to make some political point. Frankly, it's distasteful. There's no need to inject political views into absolutely every article. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

My goodness, CO, you certianly have been busy. However, all your research seems to establish is that the way this template is used varies somewhat from article to article based on the consensus reached at each individual article. I still see no reason for a change or a POV tag. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 02:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I see it as data collection, not research, to form a firm basis for things I was unaware, and it was suggested that I look; I did. I believe, based on these and likely others, that my comments remain valid; there seem to be some glaring inconsistencies. I appreciate that “consensus reached at each individual article” is a valid point, but I believe consistency and living within NPOV provided by numbers remains a more-prime Wiki-objective. Honestly, I am hesitant to add a POV tag, because I don’t know if the two can co-exist because of differing formats. Is there a specific POV tag designed for an infobox? CasualObserver'48 (talk) 08:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Jayjg and Steven J. Anderson. There doesn't seem to be any controversy or contention concerning the layout of the infobox. As I wrote earlier, there is a well-established consensus to keep the layout the way it is. Even though I don't agree with that view, I don't see any POV problems with it. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 02:52, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

As I state below I contend some inconsistencies between number-facts and layout. I discussed what you call the “well-established consensus to keep the layout the way it is,” above. My enumerated POV concerns are described below. Thanks for adding the back-ref to the main discussion page at the top of this page, but it is too late now. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 08:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Jay, (et.al., later) thanks for the comments, and I will answer them with an outdent, because they bear substantially on the topic, might reduce indents, and shorten this discussion. It may also allow others to see where I stand relative to the NPOV problem I raised and some blurring Jay has included. My replies might also have to wander some, so other involved editors may more fully understand.

• Concerning Jay’s first comment, “nitpicking to make some political point:” My simple rebuttal is that my criticism of the current design, which “hides very relevant info by the placement of unnatural breaks” and creates “separation of numbers, which … should be able to speak for themselves,” is not nitpicking. It is NPOV. The current design is an excellent example of one of my favorite expressions: “Figures don’t lie, but liars can figure.” With that, I am not calling anyone a liar, only implying that some can figure/calculate.

Your comment raises, again however, “whatever ‘political’ I noted, I tried to keep [it] in a separate, multiple-issue problem, not yet raised.” So now, I must try to elucidate. I believe that our political differences revolve around a single word, Zionism, and its multiple, changing definitions, which you and I have discussed at length elsewhere.

To state my POV simply, so others may judge and better lead toward resolution, my POV strongly supports Medīnat Yisrā'el’s Biblical and modern legitimacy and its right to exist in peace, when and since it was established. I believe Jay and I agree on that. I am opposed, however, to activist Zionism’s post-1967/1977/on-going changes, which actively attempt to re-define Israel into Eretz Israel on multiple fronts. I am opposed to this for moral, ethical and real-world reasons, because it seems to negate and disavow equally valid self-determination for another people (POV) and seems to create growing troubles for Israel, the US and the World. Such a zealous view of Zionism essentially negates Israel’s and the World’s 1947 acceptance of United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine (UN181), a critical, basic legal framework for Israel’s political legitimacy. This is extremely worrisome, downright frightening. (I will now stop there, noting that it had to be stated to establish my POV bona fides and my degree of, and ability to be NPOV. This also gives Jay and others an opening to do the same, and I encourage you to do so. This is the talk page, right? I might step on a Wiki-toe, but it seems much preferred to bludgeoning editors with NEO, OR, RS and SYN.)

The quite simple changes I believe are required for NPOV consist of the following at this point; please refer to the template to understand/’see’ them.

• Delete the ‘centering’ of Israel and make it ‘left,’ similar to other countries. This makes this template consistent with all other Jewish ethnic templates that I have found (examples are provided above).
• Remove the small ‘Other significant Populations’ from its current position between Israel and the US to a position somewhere below the US. At this point, since there has been no reply to my questions at the global ethnic group infobox page. I have no idea where that break might be. How do you define ‘significant’ in relation to the numbers provided?

• Concerning Jay’s second comment, “Frankly, it's distasteful,” I unfortunately tend to agree, but feel he over-states it. Yesterday, I ran across a somewhat similar personal-political nerve and used the expression ‘disturbingly POV’d.’ What I see as Zionism’s POV already in the current infobox design is that Israel, by design, becomes the ‘center’ of what Jews are. This is distinctly political not NPOV, based on the facts that the numbers indicate and should be allowed to indicate, in and of themselves. I believe this latter view is quite widely held, and I am not alone. We shall see.

• Concerning Jay’s last comment: ‘There’s no need to inject political views into absolutely every article.” Well, I guess it was intended for you other editors. I dispute it somewhat, but guess it is a fair statement of Jay’s views of my edits. I believe I just dealt with the specifics immediately above. My dispute concerning the current design is that the political view already exists; I am attempting to remove it, and inject NPOV.

Respectfully, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 08:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

CO48, it was your attempt to politicize this infobox I found distasteful, as you well know. Disingenuous comments are not helpful. Regarding your other points, your claim that the infobox has been designed with "Zionism's POV" is, frankly, absurd - stop looking for sneaky Zionist conspiracies where none exist. The Israel heading is centered because Israel is the ancestral homeland of Jews, it has the world's largest Jewish population, and is the only state with a Jewish majority - in fact, the only state with more than 2% Jews. The infobox matches many similar infoboxes, and your attempts to inject your political POV into this infobox have moved beyond distasteful. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:18, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The design layout was designed like many other groups. "Zionism" has nothing to do with it. Israel, the country, makes up the world's largest Jewish population, the only Jewish majority, the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people, and the only place Jews up make up more then a couple of percent. The changes you seek to diminish Israel relate to your own political views, and they need to stay out of this. There is no reason to change this template to conform to your self-admitted anti-Israeli "Zionism" POV. Epson291 (talk) 05:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

As you both point out, it is somewhat similar, but not that much and here are two ways where it is totally different:

• This infobox is the only one I've found that 'centers' their 'homeland', even though, there is no difference between the populations of the 'homeland' and a somewhere else, uncentered. Please, find one, it will support the current version, I'm open.
• This Jewish ethnic group infobox is the only Jewish ethnic infobox (1 of 7) that centers Israel (see above). Is there some specific, technical reason for this that I might have missed, based on the parameters of the ethnic group infobox (regions, countries, populations, etc)? The stated reasons provided so far are not ‘ethnic’. They seem to be religious, historical, Biblical, national, or (maybe) political. Please provide me with a good, ethnic reason, I'm open to suggestions/things I may have missed.

I believe that the global ethnic info box seeks consistency. I am asking for one of these to be edited, make it consistent. Whatever my openly admitted POV may be, my complaint revolves around the numbers and how they are presented. The current presentation is not NPOV. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 12:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

You're making a mountain out of a molehill. So it's centered. Big deal. I don't see you complaining about the exact same thing in the Palestinian people infobox. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

In case anyone new to this page is wondering why all this verbiage is being expended, I'll try to do my honest best to condense CasualObserver's position down to its essentials. Simply put, he seems to think the infobox has POV problems for two reasons:

• In the population statistics section, the entry for Israel is centered.
• The line under the entry for Israel contains the text "Other significant populations:"

I am not making this up. This is actually what he's on about. All of the gibberish above about "unnatural breaks", "absolute mis-statement of fact" and, most precious of all, "Zionism, and its multiple, changing definitions" amounts to no more than this.

CO, have you noticed that no one at this talk page but you sees any merit in your arguments? Do you understand the meaning of consensus? Can you recognize that there is one?

I'll tell you what, just because I want everyone here to be as happy as possible, I'll state my view that the text "Other significant populations:", while obviously not the slightest bit POV, is pretty clearly tautological and conveys no actual information to the reader, so I'll delete it myself forthwith. Is there any chance that this will satisfy your injured sense of justice or are we all going to have to watch this talk page become further bloated with endless, spurious, irrelevant nonsense? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 07:25, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Sheesh, could we cool off with the personal attacks? I agree with your edit, though now it makes the different vertical alignment of "Israel" look less like visual emphasis and more like a formatting oversight. I fully expect some well-meaning editor not aware of this overwrought discussion to come along and "fix" it to line up with all the others, purely for visual reasons. —Ashley Y 07:55, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for that edit of the infobox, really. It is not a molehill, it is movement toward NPOV. As an infobox characterizing ‘Jew’, it looks more characteristic, and provides better balance for the included facts. I too, want this to end quickly, but don’t believe I have been nasty about it. I have consistently argued to let the numbers speak for themselves.

I am still asking, however, for an ethnic justification for the centering of Israel, as noted above, not the non-ethnic ones provided. This is my last problem, then I will get out of your hair and thank you for your consideration of the facts.

I will point to some facts, which might make this admittedly very difficult ‘homeland’ edit quicker, and hopefully easier, because I will not dispute what I consider the legitimate right to an ethnic infobox for the article, it seems to be one of those self-identifying terms, and to do so I feel, is less than honorable. The infobox indicates a homeland, but the article is written in English in the 21st Century CE, not in Latin in the 1st or 2nd Century, nor in Hebrew in the 6th Century BCE. There have been many changes and events in the interim. Like America, Israel is a land of immigrants, although you use different terms. We already have more strictly ethnic/genealogical Jewish ethnic infoboxes. In addition, there are such terms as Yishuv, Sabras, refugees and those who make aliyah. I do not want to go there, nor do I think you do. To paraphrase a comment on the article talk pages, ‘you generally can’t convert to an ethnicity’. Please, let’s wrap this up, let us all retain out honor. Respectfully, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 09:48, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

While the statement is unnecessary, it was put there because it confused some people that it was a 'formatting oversight'. Since the statment it self is is not inaccurate and pretty benign, I put it back. I already removed the word "centre" for CasualObserver. Epson291 (talk) 22:36, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

CO, you have alreay been given several justifications for it, and I don't see how any of them are not 'ethnic' ones. Epson291 (talk) 22:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

CasualObserver, it has been pointed out to you several times that there is consensus to leave the infobox the way it is. I don't entirely agree with the rationale (e.g., the Jewish ancestral homeland is the Land of Israel, not the modern State of Israel), but consensus is Wikipedia's fundamental model for editorial decision-making and it is clear that there is a consensus concerning this matter. There is no Zionist conspiracy at work here, forcing its POV down the throats of unsuspecting Wikipedia editors and readers.

Yes, let's wrap this up. Please consider that you're swimming upstream and no amount of rhetoric is likely to change the consensus concerning the placement of Israel in the infobox. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 23:27, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely, Malik, and thank you, from the bottom of my heart. Consensus is absolutely at the root of article/infobox/template or Wiki-whatever writing and must be. Since your previous suggestions have been so helpful and informative, I took a look at the top of the page, the decision tree, TOC, and about one page-down. That more-or-less covers the topic at hand. I really haven’t looked much into that side of Wiki-rules yet, but I suspect at some point I should/must. However, I also did a quick ctrl-f, which is my basic ‘sniff-test’-method, and that surprisingly unhappy result, will likely cause a comment on that talk page, because (by my POV) it is so basic to what Wikipedia is/should be.

Anyway, I believe my approach here has complied very well with the intended method of building consensus. I will point to no reverts, no moves and no disruption of the article. I can further point to several article edits, which apparently, were established by a changing consensus, since I have made no edits myself. Isn’t that the way it is supposed to work? I admit that I may have ruffled some feathers on this talk page (in some cases) by even being here and questioning the existing consensus, but as far as the CON decision tree is concerned, we have been making relatively calm loops on the top line only. My involvement has conformed with Wiki-policy, and note that I arrived here from the bottom-up with the lowest level of consensual rhetorical violence that I could imagine still being effective.

Consensus, however, is also based on one other thing that seems missing from the CON page (seemingly even denigrated). Since I have used this ‘other thing’ many times but have not yet linked it, I suppose it is time to make this thing and my point both bold and blue. The thing that also seems missing from the infobox are the Fact(s) and their NPOV usage. I do not believe that consensus may or should ‘trump’ facts; I believe this is basic and encyclopedic (or am I missing something). As far as editing this infobox is concerned, the facts are the numbers, their distribution and their significance. These facts are followed (or sorted) by the regions, countries, flags, references, etc. At their least factual and most POV’able level, however, is how these facts are arranged. This is what I have been stressing since I landed here.

There is no factual (numerical) reason to ‘center’ Israel in the info box; specifically ethnic reasons to do so may be factually questionable, but seem to be self-identifying and I want to stay away from that, if I can. I accept that there are other very strongly self-identified, non-ethnic reasons to do so, but these are not among the factual parameters of the ethnic infobox. Therefore, I still consider the ‘centered’ status of Israel to be in violation of NPOV, unless as I have said you can provide something specifically ethnic. (I also just noticed that 'centering' is now out but the previously removed unnatural break has been re-introduced - Still POV.) With high regard, Malik, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 06:09, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Regions with "significant" Jewish populations

I think one of the comments above raised a good point. Maybe countries with fewer than x Jews (where x might be 15,000 or 20,000 or 25,000) shouldn't be described as "significant" Jewish populations. What do others think? — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 02:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

There aren't all that many Jews in the world. I think any population over 5000 is "significant". See also Serbs, Spanish people, Romanians etc. Danish people goes under 1000. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, and in addition, many of these places are historically very important to Jewish history. Epson291 (talk) 07:11, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I will stay out; this is an internal decision. This has no impact on my previous comments, but i have raised the relative use of 'significant' globally on the approapriate page. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 09:00, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Palestinian territories

Shouldn't we list the number of Jews in the Palestinian Territories? —Ashley Y 08:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I've changed the box to point out that the "Israel" figure is in fact for both Israel and the Palestinian territories. If someone has a source, I recommend separating out the latter. Note that figures are of 2006, after the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip. —Ashley Y 01:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Sources

• Both of the principal sources, the Jewish People Policy Planning Institute and the Jewish Virtual Library, cite the 2006 American Jewish Yearbook as their sources — but the figures provided by the JPPPI and the JVL don't agree with one another. To further compound the problem, the 2007 JPPPI figures, which differ from the other two, are also based on the 2006 American Jewish Yearbook. It seems to me that there are some adjustments being made to the figures in the 2006 American Jewish Yearbook by the JPPPI and possibly by the JVL. I'd like to update the template with the more current data, and remove the reference to the American Jewish Yearbook.
• It was very hard to download the 2007 JPPI report from their website, so I've posted a copy on my website. It's a 734 KB PDF file.
• Four countries — Hungary, Belarus, Ethiopia, and Sweden — are cited to different sources altogether, and their population figures are different (and in the case of Ethiopia, much different) from those in the other sources. For the sake of consistency, I'd like to revise the data in the template to include population figures from one of the two principal sources (the JPPPI or the JVL).
• I'd like other editors' opinions on these proposed changes. Since many interested parties will be away from their computers until Monday night, I'll hold off on making any changes until next week. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 02:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)