I tell ya, it gives me hope for our software development process. --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 07:20, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
I tell ya, it gives me hope for our software development process. --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 07:20, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
== ArbCom have confirmed there is no socking ==
{{xt|[[Special:Contributions/Future Perfect at Sunset|Future Perfect at Sunset]], if this is tl;dr the short version is "Jimbo and ArbCom have declared this page a 'fire – free zone'"}}.
{{cquote|bgcolor=#FOFFO|There is another issue here which needs attention. Although it's unarguable that allegedly banned and blocked editors may bring their concerns to Jimbo via his talk page, some administrators remove these posts citing "ban evasion", "block evasion", and even, (if they're in a particularly good mood), "serial ban evasion". The Committee rightly says that it's not their job to dictate how Jimbo's talk page is managed, but it is their province to rule on ancillary acts performed by these administrators. By these I mean their blocking the editors for the non - existent offence of posting to Jimbotalk. This block can then be used as an excuse to further block the editor when she edits again on the ground of "evading an active block". All these blocks prevent the editor making further posts to Jimbotalk, which she is perfectly entitled to do. The Committee should clarify that this is illegal, as is the practice of protecting Jimbotalk to prevent the editor from making further comments there which she is entitled to make. [[Special:Contributions/80.44.165.241|80.44.165.241]] ([[User talk:80.44.165.241|talk]]) 16:46, 1 November 2015 (UTC)}}
:See quote above for the abuse which has been identified. To make abuse easier to identify I suggest that it be a requirement that when blocking for "block evasion" administrators specify the block which is allegedly being evaded. This helps all parties. [[Special:Contributions/87.81.152.229|87.81.152.229]] ([[User talk:87.81.152.229|talk]]) 20:53, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Revision as of 16:54, 8 November 2015
Welcome to my talk page. Please sign and date your entries by inserting ~~~~ at the end. Start a new talk topic.
This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated.
To be clear this specific question is almost certainly related to Eric Corbett's ongoing arbcom topic bans related to civility and issues of the gendergap. Oiyarbepsy: to get a reasonable answer, providing context is a really good idea. Kevin Gorman (talk) 07:17, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ignoring the true point behind Oiyarbepsy's question, it would be nice if Jimbo would clarify this in a more general sense. Jimbo has largely relied on others to moderate his talk page for him, and he only makes this difficult for them by allowing a near free-for-all, with the moderators needing to interpret "near" for themselves. GorillaWarfare(talk)07:35, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oiyarbepsy removed all six of EC's posts, of which only two allegedly violated his arbcom restrictions. And of the two, even the blocking admin (a former arb) did not remove. Even when the specific arbcom remedy included allowance to remove. IHTS (talk) 08:12, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Eric Corbett is deeply unwelcome here. I generally support the idea that if people have a problem, they should be able to approach me here without getting into trouble for "canvassing" and the like. But there are limits, and we are not required to have unlimited patience for people who are not prepared to behave in an appropriate manner. I acknowledge the difficulty that GorillaWarfare identifies and the main thing about it is that no one is going to get into trouble for removing trolling from my user page. As another example, anything from "Mr. 2001" should be deleted immediately - he's not here to build an encyclopedia, he's here to wage his nearly 10 year obsessive campaign against me.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:17, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That is understandable. Still, if anyone wants to remove them, I won't complain and will defend that action as being consistent with maintaining this page as a useful forum.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:34, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a bit surprised to see my username here and I should thank Coretheapple for digging out the diff that made the result of that ArbCom decision inevitable. But I have no complaints about going through the ArbCom process. About the only thing that really surprised me was that nobody actually accused me of violating any of Wikipedia's rules. I don't think that should be allowed - the folks who request such cases should get a short-term ban for trying to drag people through the mud. As far as me trying to keep some modicum of order on this page, well it is just not my job and may not even be possible. But I do remove comments by trolls and banned editors, as well as from people explicitly disinvited by Jimmy, if I feel that they are trying to discourage others from participating here (via their trolling). I generally do not remove comments once they have been responded to, but that is not a hard and fast rule. I'll remove all the comments below that have been made by folks who have been explicitly disinvited above. Smallbones(smalltalk)15:50, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo...it's understandable that Corbett is not welcome on your talk page, we all get that now I think. It would, however be wise to not let links to libel printed in a magazine which names him and is full of inaccuracies also stand posted here. It's unfortunate that some editors were interviewed for that piece while others were not, which makes it not only lousy investigative journalism, but bad science as well.--MONGO20:49, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
MONGO, this talk page has a high level of activity. Given people's real life schedules and Wales relying on informal moderators to manage the discussions, I'm not sure who is responsible for maintaining a pristine environment. As least since I've been editing, this talk page is a messy place where all sorts of crazy comments and personal appeals are posted. LizRead!Talk!21:23, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Let me be clear that I do not hold Jimbo responsible for not monitoring his page 24/7...but if someone is going to post such things that libel an editor who uses their real name, well, maybe I'm guilty too for not hatting the thing.--MONGO01:58, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly, Liz. Which is why it should be deactivated. The thing is an embarrassment, despite Jimbo thinking it is (or may be?) a "useful forum". It is useful to no-one but cranks, misanthropes, publicity-seekers and acolytes. - Sitush (talk) 21:30, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(removed comment by Sitush again - You've been told above (as well as last year) that you are not welcome here.) Please re-read Jimbo's comment above "Please go away then" That should be clear enough for anybody. Smallbones(smalltalk)17:20, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Removed comment from Sitush again. This time it was reinserted by @Hell in a Bucket:. H, please read above where Jimmy says "if anyone wants to remove them, I won't complain and will defend that action as being consistent with maintaining this page as a useful forum.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:34, 27 October 2015 (UTC)" That should be easy enough for anybody to understand. If you don't like my removals, please take it yourself to ANI. Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:51, 28 October 2015 (UTC) Note immediately below HIAB added it back again. Smallbones(smalltalk)19:38, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(added back: let Jimbo do his own dirty work of censorship and deflection). No - that is your usual deflection from the point being made. As for your remark in this section that I am 100% sure that I'm doing my job responsibly and with good humor, well, the only thing I am 99% sure of is the utter arrogance of anyone who is 100% sure of anything they do. Complete certainty, with no allowance for doubt, is a fatal flaw. - Sitush (talk) 07:22, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If Eric believes that The Atlantic has libeled him, that is Eric’s affair; the offices of The Atlantic and the US District Court for Washington DC are thataway ⇒. None of that has nothing whatsoever to do with whether Wikipedia may link to this revered publication. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:01, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So if falsehoods about you are linked here then that would also be okay? How okay would they be if you were also defacto banned from commenting here about them?--MONGO02:08, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I admit the double negative confused me but no, I don't think so. Recently, here and elsewhere Mark's spoken of The Atlantic's impeccable reputation yet not long ago he suggested journalists were no better than Culinary Assembly Engineers. I wondered what motivated his change of heart (and whether I should be swayed most by his previous opinion or recent opinion.) 83.170.111.152 (talk) 01:28, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I see. So you're just trolling, since Mark said no such thing. Neither implying working at McD's was bad, nor that being a journalist was the same thing. Most especially, he stated nothing about the Atlantic in that piece you linked to. So please, stop trolling here and grow up. Dave Dial (talk) 01:40, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If you're going to paraphrase my arguments, kindly get them right. In that talk, I'm pointing out that journalism is a job or a trade, not a profession. That happens to be true, though many forget it. In the fuller discussion published in Genre, I pointed out the class distinction between newspaper reporters, who were typically high school graduates, and magazine writers, many of whom had gone on to college. This, too, is nearly forgotten; there was a great gulf fixed between Damon Runyan and Dottie Parker. There were always exceptions, like New Yorker editor Harold Ross, or hat Hemingway boy. You could perhaps make an argument that Tarbell and the rest f the muckraker crew were establishing a profession when they tried to buy out Colliers, but that's not the route US journalism took. Now, please crawl back not your hole, or try t find a better gotcha at Gamergate HQ -- and next time, dear banned editor, have the guts Eric Corbett showed and edit under (one of) your accounts. MarkBernstein (talk) 02:29, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That was my first reaction when the subject came up. But he is using his real name, which puts things in a different category, I thought. I don't see why he can't put his "side of the story" on his own user page. Coretheapple (talk) 22:37, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
He can't put “his side of the story” on Wikipedia because Wikipedia Is Not A Web Host. You know that! If he wants to publish a rebuttal to The Atlantic, he could submit it to The Atlantic. If they won’t take it Harper’s, The New Yorker, Wired, The New Republic, The Nation, and Esquire are all still in business. MarkBernstein (talk) 23:40, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that, and this involves an area in which I have scant acquaintance and no involvement. I just think that given all the circumstances, a bit of slack should be cut in his direction for BLP reasons. That's all. If he abuses it, then that's another story. Coretheapple (talk) 20:34, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Howdy JW. Would you clarify as to who you don't want posting on your talkpage & who you've authorized to delete such unwanted posts? GoodDay (talk) 20:25, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No editor is obliged to provide a "blacklist" of people he doesn't want on a user talk page. He's made his wishes clear about a couple of people. The question is whether volunteers should comply with those wishes if it means being dragged through arbcom. Coretheapple (talk) 17:49, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo, I'm not sure if you're aware this Wikiproject exists, so I just wanted to bring it to your attention. It's essentially a project that fosters community-driven improvement on one article over a week - generally really important topics that shockingly still have underwhelming articles after all these years. The aim is two-fold: to encourage newbies to enter the project by working with some established editors, and to push important articles up to GA/FA. A co-founder, I have personally contributed by working alongside some Wikimedia people to post statuses out into social media (Twitter/Google+/Facebook) to spread the word via engaging and witty tags. We have had various successful improvements so far, and there areatleastfour other-language Wikipedias that have followed in our footsteps and created TAFI Wikiprojects of their own. For a time, we were even on the main page! (Just below the DYK section). We're chugging along after 2.5 years, and are always looking for fresh blood, and interesting ideas to improve our innerworkings. Please stop by if you have the chance, and perhaps nominate an article or two if you find any doosies.--Coin945 (talk) 10:38, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The wp:TAFI project (with list: "WP:Articles_for_improvement") has addressed one of the key reasons why Wikipedia was failing the audience: not enough indepth coverage about mainstream subjects, outside the typical popstars or current TV or films. So the solution is to prioritize efforts to expand major subjects, and improve the existing pages within each mainstream subject. We have millions of pages of minor, rare topics to distract the editor efforts, and so sorting out priorities is crucial to expanding coverage of the mainstream topics, many of which have been awkward stubs for years. -Wikid77 (talk) 15:42, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much for your support and endorsement @Wikid77:. When we began this endevour, it astounded me how easy it was to find really obvious core topics that had sad articles, and we have seen such great improvement, but there is always more work to be done, and always more people to inform of our existence. Do you have any ideas (or contacts, resources etc.) to help our Wikiproject become more successful?--Coin945 (talk) 16:09, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think the key idea is to just remember the issue as the big problem of covering mainstream topics by a relatively small group of people, as an ongoing struggle, in essence writing the real encyclopedia within Wikipedia, rather than updating the wp:data hoarding pages of sports records, endless television episodes, or "Who's Who" in thousands of categories. It is very difficult to focus on the long-term mainstream topics, despite the distractions of all the short-lived, trendy topics. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:13, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
More...@Coin945: I did remember another important tactic to update mainstream pages: each person can edit almost twice as much by postponing changes during an edit-war or hacking of pages; because many mainstream pages tend to have frequent pageviews, there is a high risk of interference with some other users. The hacking can be bizarre, as often someone might revert all changes because they think a "comma splice" was inserted or the new sources had one "wrong page number" or otherwise want to fight about the so-called "dodgey" changes. Of course, a long debate discussion could ensue, back-and-forth, for hours, but I find if I wait to redo the changes a few days later, then the other users have chilled or no longer care about the "hideous" comma placement or whatever minutia. This intense problem of user interference is often high due to the well-deserved popularity of important mainstream pages, unlike the copy-editing of thousands of neglected rare pages which few dispute. Compare the near-double productivity by just delaying updates to disputed pages, and there is also a peace-of-mind benefit to avoiding prolonged disputes with people who want to revert 50 changes because of a comma opinion. Hence, working on "Wikipedia is 10% information and 90% deformation". -Wikid77 (talk) 00:55, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Enfranchising voters in arbcom elections
I'm dropping a pointer to this discussion here for a couple of reasons. As one: Jimbo is both the creator of arbcom, and still recognized in many arbcom policies (i.e. this) as having authority to involve himself directly with arbcom decisions. As another: Jimbo has repeatedly requested that his page not be subject to the general outlines of WP:CANVASSING, and most other highly watched places I could notify I would be instantly accused of canvassing if I notified.
I've started a discussion and strawpoll here about whether or not I can appropriately exercise my administrative abilities to send out a massmessage neutrally notifying recently active eligible voters in the upcoming arbcom elections that they are eligible to vote, along with a brief description of what arbcom does (taken from arbcom's own description,) and the type of decisions they can make. I started the discussion because it perturbs me that 2014's arbcom tranche saw only 60% of the voters of 2013's arbcom tranche, and a total of 600 voters or so despite the fact that many more are eligible.
I believe that many voters within the electorate that arbcom has set for itself are completely unaware that they are able to vote despite being many of them having a vested interest in the direction Arbcom goes, and novel perspectives to contribute both in voting and in questioning candidates. (e.g., the person who rapidly popped up in initial discussions about this - with over 50k edits - who was unaware they could vote.)
Discussion is welcome in either place, but for the sake of whatever admin ends up closing my AN thread, I would request that anyone with significant comments or who wants to voice an opinion in what is pretty much a strawpoll on whether or not a neutral massmessage to inform eligible voters they are eligible to vote would be an appropriate administrative action comment or !vote here rather than on this talk page. Best, Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:06, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What exact mechanism are you thinking of using? I strongly support improving notification of elections, not just at the time of the election, but also in the run up to election so that interested parties have time to do their homework and research the candidates. I'm not sure that mass messaging is the best tool - a site notice to all logged in editors is surely easier and more appropriate?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:40, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We already use a site notice to all logged in users, but discussions both on my talk page and in private have brought up that (a) a lot of people just ignore sitenotices out of habit or have turned them off, and (b) the site notice doesn't make it clear to at least an insignificant portion of those eligible to vote that they are in fact eligible to vote (among other things, a content contributor with more than 50,000 edits stated that the banners had not made them aware they were eligible to vote - yet surely someone with that many edits has a strong potential interest in the direction arbcom heads.) Massmessage is quite easy to use - my proposal at AN is to send out a massmessage to all voters who are eligible to vote by the already identified standards who have been active in the last three months (so that I don't accidentally wake up people who have been inactive for years.) I have exact verbiage there, but my thought is to send out a short, factual, neutrally worded paragraph immediately after candidate nominations have ended (as the Q&A phase begins) from a secondary account that is neutrally named (so that there's not an impression that I am personally pushing people to vote in one direction or another - since any admin can grant +massmessage and +confirmed to another account, a newly created alternate won't be an issue.)
The notices we have in place certainly get the attention of a lot of people, but 2014's voter turnout was 60% that of 2013's - no other editor metric fell like that. If a massmessage draws in any additional chunk of eligible voters who are interested in participating in the election process, I think it's worth it, given how poor recent voter turnout has been. This should be doable with the admin toolset I already have, without need for anything like WMF tech time. Kevin Gorman (talk) 03:02, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There seems to be only upside potential here. It's effective, it's free, it addresses a problem of decreasing voter turnout, and it may improve participation in a democratic election process. Thank you, Kevin Gorman, for this most sensible proposal. — Cirt (talk) 03:37, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Kevin - you need to establish why people aren't voting. I'd suspect people are sick to the back teeth of the staggering incompetence of the Arbitration Committee in recent years, the people who don't edit but who arbitrate (just what is AGK doing on ArbCom, other than hat collecting) or the people like GorillaWarfare who seem to be hell bent on dragging the community into disrepute. The last 2 or 3 years have left so much mess that it's only the egotistical who will now stand, so the candidate pool itself is desperately poor. The rationale and sensible people, assuming they've not seen sense and fucked off completely (the sensible option) wouldn't want to sit on ArbCom. So maybe it's the case that people don't want to choose the least worst candidates - maybe we need to start by getting some good candidates to stand this year, and that might attract voters. Nick (talk) 12:09, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Nick: - I was very tempted to suggest you take your "sensible option" :-o but your truly sensible option of encouraging editors to nominate themselves as candidates for ArbCom is absolutely wonderful. I wish I'd thought of the idea myself. Smallbones(smalltalk)14:59, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Smallbones: sarcasm is unbecoming. You know precisely what I mean, get out there, find people who would make good arbitrators and encourage them to stand. There needs to be a big pool of candidates and the community needs to be more engaged in the process. Nick (talk) 16:39, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Nick: Sorry, but if we eliminate humor than this page would be impossible to deal with. Yes, yes - let's get a big pool of candidates. "Let a thousand flowers bloom." Smallbones(smalltalk)16:50, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A notification to editors that they are eligible to vote might also prompt long-term editors and admins to consider candidacy. There doesn't seem to be a downside here to additional publicity for ArbCom elections. LizRead!Talk!17:24, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to think Nick is substantially correct. I've voted in the last few elections, and often end up picking the "least worst" of a very thin field. If you want voters, give them candidates they feel good and confident voting for. That, in turn, should help raise the reputation of ARBCOM and attract better candidates. Intothatdarkness18:41, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Knowing that this is a probably offbeat proposal, what if we made it the case that in effect, all individuals meeting basic qualifications set in advance were, in some way, eligible candidates in some form of primary election, and have a predetermined number of candidates, including the top votegetters who do not withdraw their candidacy, be the final candidates in the later final election? I grant that it would complicate and lengthen the process, but in at least the early stages "Draft (X)" movements tend to increase voter turnout in other elections. John Carter (talk) 21:11, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I wholeheartedly agree that we also need to expand our candidate pool, and am working on ideas regarding how to encourage that as well. The lack in ideal candidates willing to stand for arbcom is a separate problem from the fact that we have editors with over fifty thousand edits literally unaware they could vote. Both problems need to be addressed, but the fact that one proposal doesn't address both problems isn't a reason to go against it. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:27, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely - I just don't want people who realise they can vote turning up and thinking "Wow - even though I can vote, I don't actually want to vote for any of these people". Do we have metrics on how many people view the election pages and perhaps the candidates pages in particular v. how many votes are cast, or could we generate that sort of data this year ? I would be interested to know if we've got lots of people going off to look at the candidates, thinking they're all really rubbish and not voting or if a big percentage of those who review the candidates go on to vote. Nick (talk) 06:08, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The problem isn't that the candidates are rubbish, but that the voting material is rubbish. A lot of one-off questions about very specific issues, no clear statements of principle, no matrix of which decisions from the previous year a candidate agrees with or wants to revisit, not even a matrix of which incumbent candidates supported or dissented from those decisions. It is very hard for people to decide which way to vote to get the most sensible decision-makers. Wnt (talk) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My view is that Wikipedia doesn't wish it's readers "Happy New Year" , "Merry Christmas" or other local and religious festivals as Google does according to the users Geographic Location. This won't be breach of privacy as only the reader can see the banner. Past one year, most headlines about Google was "Google Doodle" which celebrates the birth anniversary of Socialists, Artists, Writers, Scientists, Architects, Inventors, Philanthropists who are not in public memory. Wikipedia's main page featured article celebrates articles which considered written correctly, whether the subject has any popularity among readers is ignored. Due to this a The Human Centipede and The Bus Uncle will appear on main page, not Raiders of the Lost Ark, Florence Nightingale and Alexander Fleming.
Making assumptions about users' religions sounds like the express lane to trouble (imagine if there are any Christians left in Syria and somehow they managed to get a connection and see a banner here reminding them about Ramadan...). It's not really part of the educational mission. Featuring On This Day or other items during major holidays accomplishes the same thing with less potential for offense, and it is more educational to present these items to readers who aren't familiar with the religions. Wnt (talk) 11:08, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Putting something on the mainpage will get it seen by large numbers of people who weren't necessarily looking for that specific information. How we choose what we show is important, and there are various competing ideas as to how we should choose. Raiders of the Lost Ark was a very popular film and a priority to those who think we should prioritise our efforts to things that the public are searching for. But to those who care more about core encyclopaedic topics it is a popular culture article barely worthy of inclusion. This could lead to endless arguments as to what goes on the mainpage, our current compromise of posting Featured articles and various other articles that meet certain standards is a compromise solution, but crucially a compromise where anyone can promote their favoured types of mainpage content, but by bringing articles up to mainpage quality not by arguing as to what should or should not be on the mainpage. This has the added advantage of being an incentive for many of our article writers as often they want their work to be read. ϢereSpielChequers11:35, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think things have gone badly wrong with the featuring of commercial products. Yes, I understand even important works of literature are commercial products. But when we have recent video game releases constantly appearing on the front page, when we have whole WikiProjects dedicated to specific companies to get their work featured, that's as crooked as it gets. Even if we ration the number of video game articles appearing, that's still as crooked as it gets, because whoever decides which has a chance to make a lot of money also. I have in the past advocated a strict approach - we could simply disqualify all companies and company products, by which I mean, branded products, copyrighted products, and patented products. We'd only feature works of literature in the public domain, for example, or companies gone defunct without successor. Maybe certain freeware, but that could get dicey fast. Problem is, I don't seem to get people agreeing. But could we at least agree not to feature commercial products with a large, active advertising budget behind them, in some flimsy effort to protect the site from the worst of it? Wnt (talk) 13:03, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It won't all be crooked, there are fans of many commercial products especially Films, Music and TV programs. But I see the case for some sort of wait or quota. I think it would be an interesting RFC, but you need to assume Good Faith of the fans amongst the writers. ϢereSpielChequers19:15, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You can use the visual editor on smartphones and tablets.
Click the pencil icon to open the editor for a page. Inside that, use the gear menu in the upper right corner to "Switch to visual editing".
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Since the last newsletter, the VisualEditor Team has fixed many bugs, added new features, and made some small design changes. They post weekly status reports on mediawiki.org. Their workboard is available in Phabricator. Their current priorities are improving support for languages like Japanese and Arabic, making it easier to edit on mobile devices, and providing rich-media tools for formulæ, charts, galleries and uploading.
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[3]: In the midst of hyping up their "heavy investments" in fancy-dancy RankBrain AI, Google says: In experiments, the company found that turning off this feature “would be as damaging to users as forgetting to serve half the pages on Wikipedia,” Corrado said.
Fair point. I was actually apologising for calling Cassianto Corbett's slavering lickspittle, but I could have used euphemisms, pronouns and contractions when discussing the other word. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:51, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies rarely, if ever, work on Wikipedia, but the way that sentence reads, I wouldn't expect User:Cassianto to be particularly satisfied with how this one is going. :) Wnt (talk) 16:05, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Anthonyhcole, Wnt is right; your "apology", if at all genuine, lost any kind of credence as it was posted here and without any kind of acknowledgement to me. If you meant the apology, you'd have posted it to my talk page (or at least mentioned me in your post). Its wording was also ambiguous and skirted around the issue. In fact, I didn't have a clue what you were talking about. CassiantoTalk16:58, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Then why did you do it? Oh, of course, we know why; it was to try and keep the "Eric is evil" dramah alive. Unfortunatley for you, you've made yourself look like a complete idiot. CassiantoTalk13:31, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for explaining my motives, User:Cassianto. Just to elaborate on that, though: I recalled that Jimmy was hoping that this could be a page where we could come together and have sometimes difficult discussions on contentious topics in a respectful and constructive environment. Then I reflected on the way I treated you above, and realised I'm part of the problem, and felt a bit ashamed. Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:15, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Jimmy hoped for nothing of the sort. If he did he would allow the likes of Sitush and Eric to post here without the fear of being told not to. CassiantoTalk18:00, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"The C Word" - can anyone read that and not think of the word? I understand if young children are listening who might repeat the word in embarrassing circumstances, but the idea that a word is so bad that it cannot be mentioned in writing is a little foreign to me.
Well, the word, which is offensive to many women and men, is repeated 40 times on this talk page and I didn't want to make it 41. Can you imagine a racial or ethnic slur term being used 40 times and how hurtful that might be? It would probably be immediately rev'deleted and the editor blocked. LizRead!Talk!08:44, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In the context of the current Arbcom case, or commentary upon it, it seems like fair use. By the same token, anyone using it as an insult against another Wikipedian, male or female, in the aftermath of the case should be dealt with harshly. Carrite (talk) 15:28, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it is right to bait and switch, to start with "feminism" and use it as an excuse to accomplish some other end, i.e. censoring speech. When people see feminism abused that way - whether in "GamerGate" related issues or here - the reaction is to become hostile toward feminism, and indeed toward women. But I have to ask - is FEMEN pro-censorship? Were The Vagina Monologues pro-censorship? No. Some people here are just using women as human shields.
Equality between the sexes means that it is pretty much equivalent to call someone "dick" or "cunt". Maybe there are a few nuances in the terms more apparent to the discerning British, but fortunately I lack such aesthetic sensitivity in my vulgarity. As a practical matter, in view of ongoing controversy, it would perhaps be wisest to try to use the opposite-sex epithet where feasible, to help restore the balance of nature as it were; long term though, we really shouldn't be expecting scatology to literally describe the subject. Wnt (talk) 16:04, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The key word in my sentence above is insult. I think you may fail to appreciate the baggage that the word "cunt" has to an American woman. Quoting myself: "It's the last word a battered woman hears screamed at her as her abuser slugs her in the face." There is a deep degree of violence attached to the word. Calling somebody a "prick" or a "pussy" isn't in any way comparable. Carrite (talk) 17:15, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
While the situation of a battered woman may be heart-wrenching, it can't be the grounds for our policy. After all, there are many situations in which we can picture someone could have a PTSD-like reaction. The U.S. and other countries have many soldiers back from the war who have heard "Allah u akbar" shouted as their comrades lay blown apart from explosives, but that doesn't mean that we should make a specific rule against editors using the phrase, even if they were to do so obnoxiously after winning some article content RFC they should have lost. You could spend all day and night coming up with things that might be specifically offensive to some people, but it's not a productive way to administer the site. You know the whole point of making some ruling against this word wouldn't be to go after the people who are being unambiguously sexist harassers, but as a sort of IDF-like tactic of declaring a buffer zone and attacking the bystanders in it in order to look tougher. Wnt (talk) 18:06, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Any Wikipedian slinging the words "nigger" or "wog" or "kike" as an insult would get the quick Block-o-Rama and there would be zero people complaining. I would argue that "cunt" is an insult word with very similar negative force to American women and anyone slinging that term as an insult had better be ready for a similar reaction, whether or not that was their original intent. Editors from the UK/Oz/NZ should be explicitly apprised of this fact in a policy document — and Administrators should enforce it. There need not be 1500 "banned words and phrases," this one is fundamental. Carrite (talk) 23:35, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Carrite: Maybe I've been too antisocial, but I feel like the sexist usage is exaggerated here. Idiots might shout that every once in a while, but more often I remember guys saying "she's a cunt" to each other meaning that "she is extremely attractive", and more to the point, the few times I remember hearing it shouted I think it was men as often as women referred to. Those racist terms, well, people rarely use them in a non-racial context, whereas this one people will use in all kinds of ways. Wnt (talk) 18:32, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(e/c) No. This is part of what got the pedia into this. If responsible Wikipedians (including especially all administrators) see someone claiming a right to use epithets and insults against others on Wikipedia, they should universally say: 'No, just no. That's not the way we expect to do discussion.' Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:16, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, we're all on the same page that people being insulting toward other editors are generally doing a disservice, distracting from important issues and spreading rancor; but the specific language used isn't what's important with that. We also recognize that Wikipedia gets heated and a certain background level of insult is unavoidable. There is also a continuum between directly insulting an editor and using words impersonally - indeed, we have a number of backwaters like WP:ITN and WP:RFA for description of which (in aggregate) our entire cultural patrimony of invective sometimes may seem inadequate. Wnt (talk) 18:11, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. A sexist rant of the type you worry about may use the letter "u" a few times. But does that mean we need a special policy on the use of "u"s, and should criminalize comments that contain an unuusual number of them? No. The intent to attack contributors and drive them off the project is what we find fault with, not its particular expression, and that is true whether we are speaking of letters or of words. Wnt (talk) 22:32, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No. One cannot separate expression from intent. It is expression that we use to see intent. As for sexist rant, that has nothing to do with my comments. We already have specific policy, it is comments like yours above, "it would perhaps be wisest to try to use the opposite-sex epithet", that reject that policy. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:20, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm, this discussion between us about how to use words may not have much chance, considering that we seem to be failing to communicate. Wnt (talk) 23:29, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, it's clear you don't like epithets. What's not so clear is what you expect admins to do about that. I don't know if you are saying that admins should go after everyone who uses epithets, and indeed, everyone who opposes your position that they shouldn't be used. But administrative action, like money, or hatred, is a scarce and precious resource that shouldn't be spent willy-nilly. Wikipedia is already overdrawn -- an international reputation for bureaucracy and conflict, a declining editor base. ArbCom and admins are overtaxed with cases of trying to figure out how to interpret the special rules they've come up with to punish previous infractions. And still we haven't stopped actual women from actually being harassed! Wnt (talk) 12:02, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have stated what I expect. Read my first comment. It's not my position, it's this websites. If one does not like it, they are free to pursue their personal agenda elsewhere, just not here. But you already said you are anti-epithet in your second comment to me, which just goes to show how foolish your first comment was and is. You don't want poor behavior, discourage it and do not suggest people have a right to do it. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:41, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Alanscottwalker: Ah - that may be the core fallacy here. You imagine that we need to abolish people's right to do something to discourage it. But nothing could be more counterproductive. Consider drug prohibition, which has catapulted a dozen different obscure and generally unappealing substances to nation-wide and enduring popularity. Contrast the war on tobacco - which was highly successful when it was just a surgeon general commenting on pictures of tarred lungs, and stopped working once it was diverted into smoking bans and taxes. Every time a thing is banned, its pursuit is ennobled, while legitimate and well-deserved criticism is reduced to an expression of slavish conformity. The only defense against that is to stick to banning things which are not merely undesirable, but clearly intolerable, which is to say here, to focus on the actual offenses committed against editors rather than the use of this word or that. Wnt (talk) 17:58, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As is plain, there is no such right. So no, there is no abolishing of a right, either. Your continued misstatements that it's a right to mistreat people on this site is just false. And as anyone who has been on the internet knows such a false claimed privilege causes more mistreatment, leading to more mistreatment, and more mistreatment. Don't wring-hands about mistreatament, while encouraging it and making false claims to privilege it. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:00, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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use of substantially unaltered "public domain" text where there is a small line for attribution
I know Wikipedia justified using wholesale copying of the 1911 EB as being "legal" in its early days - but should we now leave that behind and stop new articles from substantially being unaltered copies of "public domain" works where the "attribution" is a small line at the end of the article and the material is actually readily available from online sources without needing the "public domain source" and we actually expect the wording by editors to no longer be simple verbatim copying from old books which are out of copyright? I only recently began to find out how many articles are found by Coren's bot - and the number is amazing, as is the practice of editors using nice chunks of material from "public domain" works and thinking that the attribution line is sufficient to claim they wrote the article. I can understand, perhaps, doing some of that where other sources are not easily found, but where other sources are easily found, I fear I think it lazy at best, and, by current standards which require rewriting of material whether in or out of copyright, plagiarism at worst. Other opinions, now that Wikipedia is used as a source by readers who might not notice the tiny line of attribution? Collect (talk) 12:32, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I concur with this. I ran into an administrator pulling this stunt just a year or two ago and it absolutely blew my mind. There should actually be a Wikiproject to start liquidating all the EB 1911 article extracts with a view to their total elimination. Carrite (talk) 15:23, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Can someone explain the problem? Something is better than nothing - that's what people thought before, and I don't see what's changed. Updating these articles may be a good opportunity, but it isn't obligatory. Wnt (talk) 15:48, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Legally, no attribution line at all is required. On the other hand we at Wikipedia require the use of citations, and I would try to get editors to use those instead of complaining that something is wrong with copying from PD-texts.CFCF 💌📧18:49, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Is "legally" the only criterion Wikipedia should use? By the way, I have essentially re-written a few such articles as it appears finding online sources is a lot easier now than it was ten years ago. I decided I was not up to the overall Herculean task of fixing them all - thus the post here. What I specifically find troubling is current editors resorting to this lazy means of article creation. Are you suggesting that we should put our blinders on to this all-too-prevalent current practice? Collect (talk) 19:09, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't the whole idea of Wikipedia built on the idea of Open Knowledge, which enables reuse? Of course PD texts need to meed the same criteria as original texts, with respect to sourcing, NPOV, and other policies. And of course they should be properly attributed. But there is no reason to reject available resources just because they are not original. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:14, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for notifying me of this discussion. </s> Given that your complaints on Wikipedia are usually frustratingly vague, I have no idea if you are speaking solely about me or not. For some months, I have been importing public domain obituaries of Yale University alumni who meet WP:GNG but have yet to be written about. Each one is marked with a template clearly indicating its copyright status and origin. I make zero claims of authorship, I do not include these articles in lists of my creations in my userspace, I do not submit them to DYK as I regularly do for new articles I write, etc., so it is inappropriate and inaccurate to casually libel me as a plagiarist.
I may not write the articles from scratch, but I do a lot of work integrating them into the encyclopedia, like establishing links with relevant articles, creating Wikidata entries, supplementing the public domain material with other relevant information I do write myself (such as the big paragraph in the middle of Alexander MacWhorter III). I feel this adds to the project here just as much as anything else: bot created articles, images taken from the public domain, etc. I do not see why taking the time to create original articles would be that much of an improvement. Your version of the article George Goodyear is not really that much different from my public domain version so your effort hasn't really translated into much of an improvement for the encyclopedia, other than to satisfy a desire for purity and originality.
It's easy to say that I'm "lazy" because I don't want to write an article on an obscure 19th century state legislator from scratch. But volunteer time is a finite resource, and volunteers are going to write about what they want to write about. In fifteen years, no one wrote about that obscure 19th century state legislator, and they probably wouldn't have in another fifteen. Given the choice of topics to write a new article from scratch, I will pick something else that interests me more. But I'm willing to take the time to do this, which is quicker and easier. Given that after fifteen years of random article creation we still have gaps in the encyclopedia, we need to stop imagining they will all be filled in the same way we always have done things. We are not going to tighten up the GNG - given that those who advocate this have in the past been labeled "deletionists" and likened to book burners - so if we want a comprehensive encyclopedia with five million articles, we are going to have to reevaluate the ways we create and maintain them with the finite volunteer resources we have. I don't see any reason why the public life of 19th century America can't be comprehensively covered as the 21st is here. But while the 21st is created by current interest and easy availability of sources, 19th century material does not have those advantages, so what I'm doing is a very small way of addressing the systemic recentist bias of the encyclopedia. Gamaliel (talk) 20:46, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have found a number of editors - you at least attribute the source. Others don't. My problem is that we often can avoid using a blanket use of a single "public domain" source by simply looking on the internet for better sources. And I daresay I demur that using multiple reliable sources is not an improvement over using a single "public domain" compendium. And if the issue is that of "time" then we should not bother with Arbitration cases about editors actually using quotes from sources in footnotes, should we? I admittedly only have reached double digits in "articles created" but I do not think "5 million articles created" is all that much better than "5 million hamburgers sold" - it is the utility of the articles which counts, not sheer quantity, in my own personal opinion. Warm regards, Collect (talk) 21:08, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad I'm not the one who is plagiarizing then. :D I get what you are saying about quality over quantity, but I don't see how original text is automatically better any more than a user-taken photograph is automatically better than a public domain image. For me, it comes down to this. I'm not going to write original articles about these people, but I think i do a good job of integrating these public domain bios and it fills gaps in the encyclopedia that otherwise will likely go unfilled. Gamaliel (talk) 21:12, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Collect: If you have a way in hand that is easier to create articles, you can try to sell other editors on the idea, and maybe they'll do it. But provided the articles are acceptable at all, which is to say, they are GNG-able topics and based on a source, then it is certainly useful to create them. Having a draft based on one source gets us halfway to having a draft that merges the information from two. In Henry Ford's day, people were arguing that you have to have a master mechanic make a car rather than having some guy at the head of the line tightening the first screw... they didn't prevail. Wikipedia has it better than Ford, though, because when you're selling your product for free you don't have to wait until it is even a tenth finished before you start selling. Wnt (talk) 22:22, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Principle One is easy: Use modern English (your own words) rather than whatever style was used in the "public domain" material which is unchanged with the excuse that it is "legal" to simply cut and paste as long as the original is "out of copyright." A huge percentage of material is "out of copyright" but editors manage to keep from simple cut and paste in a great many of them.
Frankly, we could simply import thousands of major books by using bots to "create" articles - but is that a worthwhile mode of operation? Or is it simply laziness incarnate to call oneself an "editor" when your job is "cut and paste" without a scintilla of original effort? I have noticed that I can find added sources in less than 10 minutes - surely one should not claim to "create" an article by a ten-second cut and past when I do not even think my ten minutes is a "big deal." How do others feel about claiming to "create" articles by doing the ten second "slam bam, thank you Wikipedia" routine? Collect (talk) 23:24, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You could track my spoor -- I do not believe it is proper to accuse editors of "plagiarism" in this venue. For seeing how quickly I have come up with articles recently, I can point to my own articles at Act on petition which was about as easy as cribbing the EB1911 article (deceased), Charles S. Strong where the initial skeleton took about 10 minutes of searches, John W. Curry, Éditions Gründ, Gordon Grant (artist), Boston Society of Civil Engineers etc. Research for the skeletons of those articles was fast as a rule (Strong is interesting as he was an incredible person with very little "paper trail"). With the tools at our disposal, it is hardly a major task to actually do more than crib a "public domain" source. Collect (talk) 00:17, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you focused on who gets "credit" for what? If the end result is a benefit to the encyclopedia, then who cares? Like they say on Reddit, it's just internet points. Gamaliel (talk) 14:48, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Personally i don't have a problem with such use of public domain or compatibly licensed text, provided that it is clearly and properly attributed. Would it be better to paraphrase the PD text? sometimes yes, sometimes no, and even when it would be better, would it be enough better to justify the effort involved? Editor time and effort is not an unlimited resource. Would it be better to construct a truly original text, using the pD text as a source along with other sources? Often it would, but use of the PD text may well be better than nothing, if those are the effective choices. When the old text fails NPOV or other policies, that is a separate issue. I think a case-by-case approch, not a general condemnation, is needed on this issue. DES(talk)01:07, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with DESiegel above. In some cases, like some of the articles in the old Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, those sources are still considered maybe the best things ever written on their subjects. Why ignore them or try to improve the best thing ever written? However, many of the articles in the older reference works will also be covered in other PD reference sources. Most of the pages I've started at Category:WikiProject libraries contain at least some works with multiple extant PD reference works still thought to be useful out there about those topics. It would certainly be possible to try to cobble together at least some of our articles by using them all, and, if so desired, compare more recent reference sources on the same topics and use the old ones to source material which has remained largely unchanged. Personally, I think that might be one of the best ways to start building missing articles important enough to be covered in several of those sources. John Carter (talk) 01:38, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Congratulations on 5,000,000 articles!
There are currently 6,911,024 articles on English Wikipedia.
As of Friday, 15 November 2024, 19:46 (UTC), The English Wikipedia has 48,269,713 registered users, 121,930 active editors, and 852 administrators. Together we have made 1,252,848,186 edits, created 61,845,656 pages of all kinds and created 6,911,024 articles.
One reason is that the word "rubbish" used as you are using it is a Britishism, so millions of editors wouldn't have even considered it. But I think we are getting off-topic here. :) Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:00, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I saw you post this on Facebook in the context of [4]. Seems notable, hopefully one of the many watchers here will help stub it (I don't have time ATM). Oh, and I am also curious if discussion on this page can lead to something clearly positive like content creation, for a change. Cheers, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here04:07, 4 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The draft bill is being released today at 12:30pm UK time, as I understand it (10 minutes from now). Clearly many journalists have an advance copy. Not sure if the raw text is online yet, but if someone finds it, please share the link here so that several of us can start reading through it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:21, 4 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Its executive summary (aka advert for the bill) is troubling.
The actual draft bill appears to allow for a broad range of information gathering not limited by prior warrant, including sufficient information required to be held by "communication service providers" at all levels - "Clause 69 sets out that communications service providers overseas that handle 186 communications data of UK citizens are also covered by the provisions set out in Part 3 of the Bill." and " Subsections (1) and (2) set out that employee from a communications service provider should 181 not disclose any information about a request from a relevant public authority for communications data to a customer, without prior permission from the relevant public authority." catenated suggest that Wikipedia, which likely falls into the undefined group of "communication service providers" (using the normal sense of the word - including any provider allowing people to message other people whether or not it is "email" and where the bill specifically includes "social media" as an example where the "email information" must be retained) where the bill is concerned could be affected.
The advert seems to not note "Subsection (9) specifies the communications data that can be retained by what it can be used to 189 identify. For example, communications data can be retained if it may be used to identify, or could assist in identifying, ‘the sender or recipient of a communication (whether or not a person)’. Such communications data would include phone numbers, email addresses and source IP addresses. " The intent is clearly not to track what a person simply "looks at" on the Internet, but to determine all that a person actually does on the Internet, and not limited to "actual emails." It parses the intent by saying "They could be used, for example, to demonstrate a certain device had accessed an online communications service but they would not be able to be used to identify what the individual did on that service" which is on its face disingenuous - if a person knows a person was on, say, Wikipedia, at a precise time and the material typed at that time from that IP address, then they quite effectively know precisely what a person was "doing."
Some of the rhetoric by the bill's supporters is unreal - or at least, it beckons back to forgotten ages of fascism. "There should be no area of cyberspace which is a haven for those who seek to harm us to plot, poison minds and peddle hatred under the radar.", says Theresa May.[5] I would think this ought to mean there's no space for people like her, because who the hell cares what happens to a country like that? They talk about pedophiles - they were talking about pedophiles ever since BAE bankrolled the Internet Watch Foundation to put their "black boxes" watching British communications as an allegedly voluntary feel-good measure. In truth what David Cameron means when he says "let's not have a situation where we give terrorists, criminals, child abductors, safe spaces to communicate" is "let's not... give criminals safe spaces to communicate", where "criminals" in turn means anyone whose beliefs he decides are poisonous. It's easy to see why al-Sisi is his bosom buddy nowadays.
These things, people can say they're not our direct concern. We're supposed to be neutral. Perhaps we should be neutral - Britain is a country, ISIS is a country, fair's fair, no need to cheer for one side or the other in that conflict. But the first source there warns that the bill allows the British government to start hacking quite indiscriminately, and that is Wikipedia's concern. From the topmost link: "A targeted equipment interference warrant is a warrant that authorises the person to whom it is addressed to secure interference with any equipment for the purpose of... " That is spelled out in detail in section 83: "Equipment belonging to, used by or in the possession of a particular person or organisation", "Equipment that is being, or may be being used, for the purposes of a particular activity or activities of a particular description". So if anybody in Syria has ever left a message read by somebody else in Syria, that justifies a hacking raid on any data stored in WMF machines. The question I still have is, does it also justify them hacking the site Javascript or hidden features in multimedia formats in order to pass on infections to people who read Wikipedia articles, whether on behalf of British thought police or those of allies like Egypt? Wnt (talk) 18:04, 4 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
[6][7][8][9][10][11] The Irish Examiner quotes May: "They would only be able to make a request for the purpose of determining whether someone had accessed a communications website, an illegal website or to resolve an IP address where it is necessary and proportionate to do so" Note that these records of website access are NOT subject to warrant, but can be initiated by police (though not local police) and various other entities. Judicial review is (a) pro forma and (b) can be avoided entirely by claiming an "urgent" case.
A practical aspect is that people from Britain were saying before that it was illegal for them to look at various things, e.g. "terrorist propaganda". Now that they know that literally one click could put them on an actual enforcement list, I imagine the hysteria level about such links will go up. There will be pressure for us to take any "bad" website out of our references on the sole basis that their government has banned it, and is serious about punishing them for clicking on it. We must not give into this. Routing innocent Wikipedia readers to sites that put them on a purge list may be an act of terrorism, but if so, it is one that is badly needed. One could morally excuse a drone strike on that building from V for Vendetta if it could actually produce regime change on that sorry island.
It is also worth noting from The Guardian: "the Home Office says it will not be able to enforce obligations in court on American internet firms.... The government is to try to negotiate a new treaty with the US for voluntary cooperation on data sharing." It is rare that we get a warning of the bad things to come. Wnt (talk) 13:40, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As a member of "that sorry island" and as someone who is totally against this ridiculous bill and who didn't vote for the shambles of a government we currently are saddled with, I'd rather you didn't refer to Britain as "sorry" or advocate drone strikes against us. Its bloody rude is what that is. And as for this: " Routing innocent Wikipedia readers to sites that put them on a purge list may be an act of terrorism, but if so, it is one that is badly needed." Dude, I mean, come on. Man Over-bored (talk) 17:20, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps my rhetoric was overboard - but my refusal to delete links because they are banned in Britain is not an exaggeration. Describe that as you will. Wnt (talk) 18:37, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Candidates for ArbCom needed - let a thousand flowers bloom
Starting November 8 candidates may nominate themselves for a two-year term in the forthcoming ArbCom election. See Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2015 for details. Given the controversy within the Wikipedia community that is often seen on this page, I think it's time that people step up to the plate and see what the community says about their positions. I'd love to see a wide range of candidates. If you'd like to see more on this, you might read Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2015-10-28/Op-ed
There's never been any rule against non-admins on ArbCom. That seems like a good way to go IMHO. I'd much rather have an arb who is not completely familiar with all the rules, but promises to follow them, than an arb who knows the rules, but doesn't follow them. Smallbones(smalltalk)22:52, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There's no rule against non-admins on ArbCom but every arbitrator has to verify their identity with WMF so one can not be anonymous. Also, since arbitrators are given checkuser and oversight tools, there is concern among some voters that non-admins haven't gone through an RfA and been "vetted" to ensure they will be able to handle privacy concerns. But, this isn't said to say, "No" to you, just that there will be some hurdles. LizRead!Talk!23:02, 5 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
More accurately the concern of the WMF is that OS/CU is not given to someone who has not undergone a vetting process like that to become an administrator. Managing to be voted onto Arbcom would certainly qualify under that criteria. Largely irrelevent anyway since Arbcom itself hands out CU/OS to whoever they want regardless of policy/process in place. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:02, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, GoodDay, you would likely be a good Arbitrator among a helpful group but might get burn-out quickly, and I think people who like to talk, for hours on end, would be more happy there, and less likely to be frustrated by the ultra-slow progress and complified ways to say "no" to improvements. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:04, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still waiting for a candidate to run on a platform of 'no backroom discussions', sadly any of the editors who also think too much of Arbcom's deliberations are behind closed doors are too intelligent to even run. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:42, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Jusdafax, Arbcom elections are an annual reminder that our most trusted editors have tended to already become admins, given the choice the community elects arbs from among the admins who stand, non admins have sometimes come close, but the clear pattern is that the community elects admins as arbs. Also, while other experience can also count, a big part of the arbcom workload is in dealing with things like contentious blocks and unblocks. If a candidate has served as an admin you can look at the blocking and unblocking they've done and decide for yourself whether they have shown sufficiently good judgment to be an arb. There are more opportunities for admins to demonstrate many of the qualities that we look for in arbs than there are for non admins. There is also the issue that if you do things out of order and get heavily involved in things like the drama boards before becoming an admin you risk getting opposes simply for your number of edits or even percentage of edits to particular boards or namespaces, (experienced !voters and particularly admins tend to know that stats are not a substitute for actually looking at edits, but it is a sadly common mistake for newer voters). Hence my suggestion that anyone thinking of standing for arbcom consider going for admin first. ϢereSpielChequers17:46, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any reason to discourage non-admins. Sometimes admins take themselves much too seriously and think that they run things around here. That very definitely was not the original intention - admins are here to serve, not tell editors what to do. I was surprised to hear about the "vetting" that admins get at RfA - you have to admit that some really terrible decisions are made during that process. One admin (now globally banned) who spent considerable time on this page harassing Jimbo comes to mind. To an ordinary editor like myself, admins can also come across as very aggressive at times, and they have messed quite a few things up on ArbCom. I'll suggest that that any admin who wants to discourage non-admins from running for ArbCom just trust the editor's own knowledge of his or her qualifications to run. Or the admin could look up the rule, and just say "that's not my call." Smallbones(smalltalk)18:46, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ultimately, what is under the candidate's control is the decision to run for ArbCom and how they address the questions directed to them. I think WereSpielChequers was pointing out the likely critical view of voters who look over candidates, not implying that a non-admin wouldn't make a good arbitrator. It's up to the community to determine who will be the next arbitrators and, in that sense, every editor has the same one vote to cast for each candidate, regardless if they are an admin or non-admin. LizRead!Talk!19:24, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's exactly it - let the voters decide. A non-admin who submits his or her candidacy is not taking anything away from anybody else, is not in any way hurting anybody else. As i said, sometimes I think admins take themselves too seriously. The voters will decide if being an admin is a "requirement" in their eyes. It might even be the case that some voters think that being an admin is a negative factor. Let the voters decide. There's no point in discouraging editors from running for ArbCom. Smallbones(smalltalk)19:35, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So far the voters have decided not to elect any non admin candidates to Arbcom, for some adminship is a requirement, for others there hasn't yet been a non admin candidate who made their top 8 or 9. Close to 40% including me voted for a non admin candidate last year. I hope no one misinterprets my advice of "run for RFA first" as only people who are already admins can become Arbs. I think there is a good chance that one day a candidate will become an arb before they become an admin, and would confidently predict that one of the successful candidates in 2016 or 2017 is not yet an admin. But my advice to anyone planning to stand for arbcom is to become an admin first. ϢereSpielChequers21:36, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Having been on Arbcom I can guarantee there's nothing in it that requires someone to be an admin before they get elected. So, anyone who thinks they can do a good job should feel free to stand. Particularly the various people who think Arbcom does a bad job or doesn't reflect their views - the elections are your chance to put your money where your mouth is by putting your name forward. -- Euryalus (talk) 07:16, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Notability?
Is a person who has "competed in the Olympics" who is currently "presumed notable" per the Olympic guideline, actually notable when the BLP is substantially nugatory towards him and towards other living Ugandan athletes? Joe Atuhaire? Collect (talk) 12:38, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hello
I am trying to edit "aerospace engineering" page but the captcha triggers everytime even if i write the right version. Nobody is answering, could you please help me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Diyetisyenece (talk • contribs) 13:03, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Fails PORNBIO and the GNG. No awards, only nominations. Only independent reliable sourcing is a passing mention in an article about her onetime husband.
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.
It is informative to look at the article Jimbo himself created way back in 2001. He wrote: "Aria Giovanni is a famous model who was Penthouse Pet of the month in September 2001". The use of the word "famous" is suprising and there are no sources offered to support these statements. He also says that she "appeared on Bomis posing with clothes on for a Ferrari giveaway contest". How times have changed. Protopone primigena (talk) 22:08, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hullaballoo Wolfowitz was correct to notify Jimbo, since Jimbo himself created this pornstar biography way back in November, 2001. Yes, our standards have changed dramatically since then. These days, creating an article about a model appearing on your own girlie website, Bomis, with an edit summary of "(I wonder if google will like this page)", would certainly be frowned upon. Cullen328Let's discuss it06:46, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This page (Nadavara) is addressing the Nadavara of Uttara Kannada as Nador. There are 35,000 Nadavaras live in Uttara Kannada and outside of Uttara Kannad. The school living certificate or birth certificate of every Nadavara person mentions the caste name as Hindu Nadavara and not as Nador. Nador is in a way an abusive name. The individual who has posted the new Nadavra page has removed the old page of Nadavaras of Uttara Kannada. The new page is very brief and mentions the Nadavar as Nador of Ankola. In any way can you ask this person not to include his original research and additionally remove the words "Nadors of Uttara Kannada" from the current Nadavara page to avoid any further complications. (Sikanjal (talk) 20:07, 7 November 2015 (UTC)Sikanjal)[reply]
I don't know anything about this specific issue, but it sounds like it's good to raise it for wider attention. Perhaps others can tell you of the best place to raise the issue (assuming you've already raised it on the talk page of the article.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:41, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Superprotect was introduced by the Wikimedia Foundation to resolve a product development disagreement. We have not used it for resolving a dispute since. Consequently, today we are removing Superprotect from Wikimedia servers.
"Without Superprotect, a symbolic point of tension is resolved. However, we still have the underlying problem of disagreement and consequent delays at the product deployment phase. We need to become better software partners, work together towards better products, and ship better features faster. The collaboration between the WMF and the communities depends on mutual trust and constructive criticism. We need to improve Wikimedia mechanisms to build consensus, include more voices, and resolve disputes.
"There is a first draft of an updated Product Development Process that will guide the work of the WMF Engineering and Product teams. It stresses the need for community feedback throughout the process, but particularly in the early phases of development. More feedback earlier on will allow us to incorporate community-driven improvements and address potential controversy while plans and software are most flexible.
"We welcome the feedback of technical and non-technical contributors. Check the Q&A for details."
