User talk:Victoriaearle: Difference between revisions

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Victoriaearle is suffering from physical health issues. This may affect their ability to work on Wikipedia. Consequently, they may not be able to respond to talk-page messages or e-mails in a timely manner. Your patience is greatly appreciated.

Ernest Hemingway

Big birthday coming up for Hemingway ... 125th, on July 21 ... so I'm thinking about a TFA rerun. You nominated this at FAC ... any thoughts pro or con? There's basically no uncited text. I see three "clarify" tags and one "request quotation" tag ... nothing major. I don't see any significant fights on the talk page, or evidence of recursive bad behavior in the history. - Dank (push to talk) 06:02, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dank when I saw the message I was afraid you'd scheduled for April! That would have been a stretch ... but ... July might be doable. My sense of the article is that it's degrading and needs work. My problem is twofold: getting anything done is very difficult these days and if I start to dig in there I'll want to really dig in and do a rewrite. Is it feasible to have a few days to evaluate & get back to you? Victoria (tk) 21:27, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh of course, and we can always run it another year. Take your time. Very nice writing on this one, btw. - Dank (push to talk) 21:51, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Dank! I'll take a few days to assess and let you know. I can't take credit for the prose - without Yllosubmarine (Maria), Malleus, Ceoil, and a cadre of others it wouldn't be what it is. Those were the days! Victoria (tk) 00:20, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you want my opinion, or even if you dont, and having spent a while comparing versions earlier this afternoon; its fine, in very good shape, and I wouldn't stress or be put off imagine a huge preparation task. More important, am on Dank's side, it would be a fine article to rerun - whatever you might think of Hemingway these days, he was never boring, and having the man on main page very much serves readers, who can draw their own conclusions, m or n dash be dammed :) Ceoil (talk) 00:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Funny! Of course I value yours and Dank's opinons. I think it's doable. It needs tidying but easier done than I thought. Lets go ahead and run it! Victoria (tk) 00:53, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm delighted Victoria, and thanks Dank for thinking. Deep, calm, breaths Victoria! Ceoil (talk) 01:07, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thanks very much to Dank for thinking of it. I'm honored. Practicing deep breathing as I dig into it. Victoria (tk) 01:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As always the "Influence and legacy" sect is the main problem child re post FAC additions, have done some trimmings and paragraph merging. I think any pre main page prep should focus on keeping this tight and on point. Pop mentions /= literately importance. Ceoil (talk) 01:32, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for combining the paras; I noticed that paragraph breaks have been added throughout. Yes, it should be tight - that was always the idea. It definitely needs tightening. Luckily because I didn't use citation templates it's easy to see where stuff has been added. I've hacked out some from the legacy section - that section might need an entire rewrite. During PR & FAC we'd agreed to keep some of the stuff but in my mind it invites anything & everything to be added. Victoria (tk) 01:47, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That aligns with my impression...in prep for another day in the sun, all that is needed is remoal rather than addition, and that is always so much easier. I'm really not seeing that you should re-dig the sources: and scholarship has not developed so much since 2010. The page is a joy to read...so crisp and clear :) I very much don't see a need for worry here, in fact you can be proud. Ceoil (talk) 02:06, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Hemingway scholarship is endless but it's reiterative; equally there seems to be a reiterative call for post 2010 (or plug the year) sources for FAs. All that said, I don't intend to dig into the sources. It needs snipping which, as you say, is so much easier than adding. I wrote a decent article back then; much better than I could now. Which is chastening, but whatevs. Life is what it is. I need to stop now, but, yes, feel good about this. Thanks for the compliments - they mean a lot. And thanks for the help - as usual. Victoria (tk) 02:17, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re post 2010 scholarship; I don't buy it, lith scholarship moves slowly, while exciting new theories are best left settle down before inclusion here (as with Vincent's talk[1]). Also see my and the sainted Rigger's frustrations with one trigger happy editor's comments on talk Talk:Caspar_David_Friedrich#WP:URFA/2020_review. Ceoil (talk) 08:22, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly! Especially for Wikipedia's purposes. There's nothing new in regard to basic biographic facts/info or basic literary info. Will pick at it later in the week, time permitting. Victoria (tk) 16:27, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I dont really have any other news. As we are sadly no longer spending time in CT, horizons now are the Scottish Islands (I have to see Iona", hen living in London in the 90s Liz used to date a dude from Orkney), and cities in eastern Europe. I work with a few people from Romania; hearing great things about eating out in Cluj and Iași. Trips like that mean we have to drive up to Dublin airport (yuck). But its good to have plans as its better to look forward rather than back. Ceoil (talk) 18:11, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As it happens I got interested in Iona a few weeks ago after reading about the monks & the abbey in a book set in 7th cent. Northumberland. It took me a while to realize the Old English name Wii (or something like that) meant Iona. Anyway, go there! Seems fascinating. And the others too. Looking forward is always good; traveling is always good, too. Victoria (tk) 20:18, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Talk page follower comment) - If for some mysterious reason you go to Iona and are motivated to try your hand at golf, be aware that the main hazard is the bull on the 9th hole. Risker (talk) 05:25, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Risker! That was an almost-spit-my-coffee-onto-the-keyboard funny comment. I have no comeback to it. Hope all is well with you and yours. Victoria (tk) 21:01, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Risker, feeling a strange mix of being impressed but envious that you've been there....grr. ps, the chances of me visiting a golf course when I vist (fingers crossed) this summer are slightly less than zero. I did play as a teenager, but am far too lazy now in my middle age ;) Ceoil (talk) 01:26, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

flowers, art, music

for you today, the birthday of M. C. Escher whose art inspired music, with best wishes for your health -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:12, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Today we have a centenarian story (documentation about it by Percy Adlon) and an article that had two sentences yesterday and was up for deletion, and needs a few more citations. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:55, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You have a great deal of energy, Gerda. Much more than I. Victoria (tk) 16:01, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

July music

The story is today about the first published composition by Arnold Schönberg which I was blessed to hear. Listen, and perhaps read what Alma Mahler (to-be-Mahler at the time, to be precise, who was present at the first performance) said, and yes that was too much for the Main page ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:33, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Today's story is about a Bach cantata premiered 300 years ago OTD. - A meeting of two women - the occasion of the cantata - is pictured in our local church, 17th century. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Libuše Domanínská, the subject of yesterday's story, would have turned 100 today, but I missed that ;) - Overnight, Tamara Milashkina became GA. - 4 July is also the birthday of Brian Boulton who wrote about Gianni Schicchi, and who was a pioneer of a concise infobox in 2013, including a list of works. Imagine if we just followed that example! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:28, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Happy 4th, Gerda! Victoria (tk) 16:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was a good day, beautiful chamber music. I am sorry that you felt inflamed when I wanted to point out what could be common ground. Perhaps "pioneer" was the wrong word, - English often remains a mystery. Right after the closure of the arbcase about infobox, BB tried compromise (my understanding) by inserting what he called identibox to his "own" FA Percy Grainger, including a list of his compositions, and announced it on my talk. Imagine if we all accepted that such a thing is a good compromise, imagine we had accepted that back in 2013: no more flames would have been needed all these years. It saddens me that we didn't. How do you see it? How can we reach a compromise? - Do you understand that the removal of the list of compositions from Robert Schumann's infobox, never questioned and stable since 2020, a removal now in 2024 in the FAC preparation, inflamed me? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gerda, I'd invite you to look at the big picture. From my point-of-view, it's not infoboxes that I find objectionable but how they are designed in the interface. They take up a great deal of space, space which has shrunk since the introduction of Vector 22. First and foremost - that is the skin the average reader sees. What you and I see depends on preferences set over many years. As a digression - over the past few days I brought the operating system & browser on my laptop up-to-date and during that process checked Wikipedia while logged out. The reader is now presented with a huge ugly box asking to set font size and it's not intuitive how to get rid of it - of course those of us logged in have already taken care of that problem. To get back on track - Vector 22 eliminated the table of contents which makes the infobox fall into the text below the lead - so now we have to be very careful about how many fields to fill in the infobox. I spend much more time here reading these days instead of writing, and I see many many many articles with text squash in the first couple of sections, depending on the size of the infobox. Beyond, the text column itself has shrunk with the table of contents shoved to the left gutter and the tools shoved to the right. Again, yes, we can set preferences. The casual visitor doesn't or won't bother. I could go on and on, but will only add one more point: many infoboxes are wrapped in colors that are difficult to deal with, i.e see Hilda of Whitby, which presents the viewer with an eye-piercing border. As a migraine sufferer, I often click away quickly from pages that flash such overwhelming colors.

As for Schuman - I believe Tim riley took it to FAC? You should be talking directly to him, not to me, nor to anyone else about it. As for list of compositions - as I mentioned above we have to be careful about each and every field. Perhaps to effect change we should instead focus on what should be included in the each lead?

As yesterday - it was a holiday; it was early in my day; it's hot and humid; I'm grouchy. All that said, if you must point out when Brian's birthday is, and you want to laud his many great contributions, in my view tying together Brian, liberty, the 4th of July and infoboxes, is reductive (he did so much more!), plus, generally I like to leave the dead to their deserved peace. I felt baited and I don't like to feel baited.

Please give all of this some thought. Look at Wikipedia with different skins, on different screen sizes, and visit pages when you're not logged in. Think about the harsh colors for those with seizure disorders and migraines. Think about designing in simplicity. And finally think about what the constant drip drip drip does to others. I'm open to discussion but in smaller less frequent doses. Be well and thanks for the flowers. The deer eat all of my day-lilies during the night, so I never see them! Victoria (tk) 14:48, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Short reply: sorry about the deer eating your flowers, the humidity, and then me "baiting" without wanting that. Tell me when it's less humid for more talk. Just in short: I think that we agree on some points, - please let me know where I may be wrong:

I like infoboxes to be short, that's why I used the term "concise".
I like infoboxes with no added colours, that's why I often transform infobox musical artist into infobox person. (I don't feel I should change the one for the saint, though, because it's not my topic of expertise.)

Tim riley came to my talk to tell me that I'm not welcome on his, so how could I talk to him at a quiet spot? Brian Boulton has treated me friendly as long as he lived, and I will sing his praises as long as my memory serves me. What would he tell us today? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:36, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I spent some time thinking about this issue. A few suggestions if you'd allow me. First, I understand that you're upset, but the only two solutions are to let it go or to go to the person's page (I might consider offering a quiet place to discuss, but not now, and I'd need to mull that over first). Complaining to others will not work well - I'm sure you learned that as a girl just as I did. The very best thing in my opinion is to let it go - at least temporarily. Use your watchlist as a friend and unwatch pages that bother you. It's very freeing to do that. Last week I unwatched a page I'd had on my watchlist for about 15 years, and am much happier. As for Brian, I understand singing his praises. I can do that too. But I do suggest decoupling him from the infobox discussion. (To decouple is the same as separating a train car from the train). Let's leave Brian behind insofar as infobox discussions. For whatever reason, your post triggered me. Perhaps others had the same reaction? Perhaps others are much more polite than I and said nothing (I tend to speak my mind). That's enough for now. I understand it's getting late in your time zone & will respect that.

Re the flowers: there are no fences where I live so I've learned to coexist with the wildlife. But the pic of the lilies made me smile. Thanks again for it. Victoria (tk) 20:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for speaking your mind. Speaking mine: I am not upset, I have not complained, I have not mentioned a name, I have no intention to complain, nor mention a name. I am simply interested in linking to the works of a composer from their infobox if they are in a separate article (separate only when too long to be in the same), and I have asked people if they think it is a good idea. I am pleased that Brian thought it was a good idea, and The Worm That Turned for Beethoven, and the community for Mozart. I hope that you understand that we don't talk the old-style typical "infobox discussion" (infobox yes or no), but about one specific parameter. I could let it go more easily if it wasn't Schumann (you may know that I took Clara Schumann to GA), and if it wasn't FAC, knowing that once it's FA changes become difficult. I am sorry that I have no way to understand why a composer's works should not appear prominently in their infobox if there is one, but only way below in Music and the navbox. - I am happy to have made you smile! A dear person in my family is named Lili, that's why I smile now. The day lilies in my garden froze in one spring night this year, - the leaves (that where already long) recovered but no flowers this year. Next year perhaps. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:53, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But this is the wrong page for that discussion. It needs to happen on the article talk, or the FAC (if it's still open). Anyway, I'm not finished in the kitchen and have promised myself to stop multi-tasking here. It never ends well. Victoria (tk) 22:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! Victoria, a citation question for you

I now have a few Apple books (ebooks) that are good sources (academic publishers, etc.) The electronic pages numbers vary depending on type size and line spacing selected. How do I deal with page numbers in a citation?

The last eight years moved me to select my newest ebook: God, guns, and sedition : far-right terrorism in America. Bruce Hoffman and Jacob Ware New York, Columbia University Press, 2024 Series: A Council on Foreign Relations book, Includes bibliographical references and index

My best wishes for you; stress-free and cool summer
— Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 01:40, 3 July 2024 (UTC) —[reply]
ps I reach for stress-free; in Atlanta a cool summer is any day with a high below 95 — n —

(talk page stalker) Use a chapter or section title if available, if not include a short quote that would allow someone to locate the relevant text by searching. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:36, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
::Thank you for helping, Nikkimaria. Have the best summer possible. Neonorange

Thanks, Nikki - the short quote suggestion is a good idea. Victoria (tk) 20:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Phil, good to hear from you. What Nikki says. If you're using Template:Sfn there's a field for "location" that's used for chapter headings or numbers. If written freeform as I do, same thing. Re Apple books, thanks for the heads up. Have you checked out the Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Library? It's really amazing these days. I downloaded some newly written books about Hemingway recently and was seriously pleased.

Yup, it's a hot summer. Not as hot where I am as in Atlanta, but still 90 or so & humid almost every day. In between we get tornadoes. It's the new normal. Happy 4th! Victoria (tk) 16:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the greeting and heads on new content in the Wikipedia Library. Dana and I are staying inside until the sun goes down today. Our daughter, now in Taiwan, is decamping for cooler and drier climes. Have a good Fourth. — Neonorange (talk to Phil) (he, they) 17:29, 4 July 2024 (UTC) —[reply]

We're in too, today. Tried going out, was too muggy, came in. But the late-day thunderstorms are building. The storms are scary these days. Or I'm just getting too old. Anyway, enjoy digging around the library. I've been having some fun there. It's a great perk. Victoria (tk) 20:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 91: / Line 91: @@
 :::::Re the flowers: there are no fences where I live so I've learned to coexist with the wildlife. But the pic of the lilies made me smile. Thanks again for it. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 20:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 :::::: Thank you for speaking your mind. Speaking mine: I am not upset, I have not complained, I have not mentioned a name, I have no intention to complain, nor mention a name. I am simply interested in linking to the works of a composer from their infobox if they are in a separate article (separate only when too long to be in the same), and I have asked people if they think it is a good idea. I am pleased that Brian thought it was a good idea, and [[User:Worm That Turned|The Worm That Turned]] for [[Beethoven]], and the community for [[Mozart]]. I hope that you understand that we don't talk the old-style typical "infobox discussion" (infobox yes or no), but about one specific parameter. I could let it go more easily if it wasn't Schumann (you may know that I took [[Clara Schumann]] to GA), and if it wasn't FAC, knowing that once it's FA changes become difficult. I am sorry that I have no way to understand why a composer's works should ''not'' appear prominently in their infobox if there is one, but only way below in Music and the navbox. - I am happy to have made you smile! A dear person in my family is named Lili, that's why I smile now. The day lilies in my garden froze in one spring night this year, - the leaves (that where already long) recovered but no flowers this year. Next year perhaps. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 21:53, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
+:::::::But this is the wrong page for that discussion. It needs to happen on the article talk, or the FAC (if it's still open). Anyway, I'm not finished in the kitchen and have promised myself to stop multi-tasking here. It never ends well. [[User:Victoriaearle|Victoria]] ([[User talk:Victoriaearle|tk]]) 22:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 == Hi! Victoria, a citation question for you ==