Jump to content

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Wikipedia:Arbitration | Requests

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sphilbrick (talk | contribs) at 11:07, 23 August 2014 (Reverted to revision 622444310 by Momento (talk): Failed to save excision. (TW)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Shortcut
Arbitration Committee proceedings
Request name Motions Initiated Votes
Wikipediocracy-related conduct   21 October 2024 3/0/1
[edit]
Open cases
Case name Links Evidence due Prop. Dec. due
Backlash to diversity and inclusion (t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t) 10 Oct 2024 24 Oct 2024
[edit]
Recently closed cases (Past cases)
Case name Closed
Historical elections 13 Sep 2024
Request name Motions  Case Posted
Amendment request: Guanaco, MarkSweep, et al none (orig. case) 22 August 2014
Amendment request: American politics none (orig. case) 20 August 2014
Appeal request: Prem Rawat none (orig. case) 15 August 2014
Amendment request: Tea Party movement Motion (orig. case) 24 July 2014

No arbitrator motions are currently open.

Requests for clarification and amendment

Use this page to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.

  • Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
  • Requests for amendment are used to ask for an amendment or extension of existing sanctions (for instance, because the sanctions are ineffective, contain a loophole, or no longer cover a sufficiently wide topic); or appeal for the removal of sanctions (including bans).

To file a clarification or amendment request: (you must use this format!)

  1. Choose one of the following options and open the page in a new tab or window:
  2. Save your request and check that it looks how you think it should and says what you intended.
  3. If your request will affect or involve other users (including any users you have named as parties), you must notify these editors of your submission; you can use {{subst:Arbitration CA notice|SECTIONTITLE}} to do this.
  4. Add the diffs of the talk page notifications under the applicable header of the request.
Clarification and Amendment archives
123456789101112131415161718
192021222324252627282930313233343536
373839404142434445464748495051525354
555657585960616263646566676869707172
737475767778798081828384858687888990
919293949596979899100101102103104105106107108
109110111112113114115116117118119120121122123124125126
127128129

This is not a discussion. Please do not submit your request until it is ready for consideration; this is not a space for drafts, and incremental additions to a submission are disruptive.

Arbitrators or Clerks may summarily remove or refactor discussion without comment.

Requests from blocked or banned users should be made by e-mail directly to the Arbitration Committee.

Only Arbitrators and Clerks may remove requests from this page. Do not remove a request or any statements or comments unless you are in either of these groups. There must be no threaded discussion, so please comment only in your own section. Archived clarification and amendment requests are logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Clarification and Amendment requests. Numerous legacy and current shortcuts can be used to more quickly reach this page:

Shortcuts:
123456789101112131415161718
192021222324252627282930313233343536
373839404142434445464748495051525354
555657585960616263646566676869707172
737475767778798081828384858687888990
919293949596979899100101102103104105106107108
109110111112113114115116117118119120121122123124125126
127128129

Amendment request: Guanaco, MarkSweep, et al

Initiated by —Guanaco at 08:42, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Guanaco, MarkSweep, et al#Guanaco_desysopped arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Link to relevant decision

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Posted to their talk pages. —Guanaco 08:46, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Guanaco

Eight years ago, it was decided that I would be ineligible to reapply for adminship. I was 16 years old at the time. I have no particular interest in reapplying in the near future - I haven't actively participated in the Wikipedia community in several years. But this black mark is something that has bothered me, and I hope to rejoin the community at some point with a clean slate. —Guanaco 08:47, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Thryduulf

People can change and mature significantly in 8 years, and processes like RFA are also more mature than they were back then so all the benefit from this restriction has been had already. The other two named uses have themselves not edited since 2008 and 2009, so there is little chance of negative interraction with them occurring. I therefore don't see any reason not to allow an application in the normal way if he wants to apply in the future - indeed there is I hope the potential that removing the restriction will spark a desire for this new, mature Guanaco to become an active contributor once more. Thryduulf (talk) 19:53, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other user}

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

Amendment request: American politics

Initiated by Robert McClenon (talk) at 02:14, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected
American politics arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested # Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics#Discretionary sanctions (general directive)
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

CFredkin https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACFredkin&diff=622128624&oldid=622125680

Stevietheman https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AStevietheman&diff=622128985&oldid=622004228

NorthBySouthBaranof https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ANorthBySouthBaranof&diff=622129194&oldid=621857736

Tiller54 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATiller54&diff=622129504&oldid=622129021

Champaign Supernova https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AChampaign_Supernova&diff=622129934&oldid=621440660


Information about amendment request

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics#Discretionary sanctions (general directive)


Statement by User:Robert McClenon

Edit-warring has been happening at Mitch McConnell and Alison Lundergan Grimes. (They are the incumbent, seeking re-election, and the opponent in the upcoming election for United States Senate from Kentucky.) The article for Grimes has been placed under full protection.

User:Champaign Supernova has had discretionary sanctions explained on his or her talk page, and that I notified all of the recent editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:14, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Details

History for Alison Lundergan Grimes https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alison_Lundergan_Grimes&action=history

History for Mitch McConnell https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mitch_McConnell&action=history


Reverting a fund-raiser https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mitch_McConnell&diff=621611111&oldid=621606775

Add endorsement https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mitch_McConnell&diff=621652104&oldid=621611111

Remove endorsement https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mitch_McConnell&diff=621675442&oldid=621652104

Add information https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mitch_McConnell&diff=621676327&oldid=621675442

Remove information https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mitch_McConnell&diff=621694341&oldid=621679946

Talk:Alison Lundergan Grimes#Censored content – See repeated claims of censorship, a common indication that POV-pushers object to removal of undue POV

Statement by {other user}

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

I'm not familiar with what a discretionary sanction is, and I don't understand what this proposal means or how it would affect me. I'm confused by my involvement here because none of the diffs listed above were edits made by me, or reverts of my edits. Is there anything I need to do right now? Champaign Supernova (talk) 03:02, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {yet another user}

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I certainly see the potential for problems to worsen here. I'm minded to grant this request. @Champaign Supernova: You can find the full details on what discretionary sanctions are here. In short, they're a way we can allow administrators to quickly address problems in areas where they're very likely to occur, and establish restrictions or remove editors from that topic area if the need arises. Establishing discretionary sanctions over the articles wouldn't change a thing for any editor who isn't engaged in misconduct, and can in any case only apply to misconduct that happens after the sanctions are imposed. It's not an action against any individual, and your inclusion on the request doesn't mean you're accused of any misconduct. The only reason you were probably included is because you edit in the area, so you should have the opportunity to comment on the proposal if you wish to, or (as you did) ask us any questions you might have. Seraphimblade Talk to me 01:04, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Like Seraphimblade, I am open in principle to agreeing to this, but is there a potential for a slippery slope here? How many other articles may also need to be placed under such discretionary sanctions if people point to this decision as a precedent? Carcharoth (talk) 23:18, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I broadly agree with Seraphimblade. T. Canens (talk) 04:17, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Appeal request: Prem Rawat

Initiated by — MOMENTO (talk) 09:38, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected
Prem Rawat arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Discretionary sanction

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
  • Momento(initiator)
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Notified The Blade of the Northern Lights.[1] MOMENTO (talk) 23:07, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Information about amendment request
  • Prem Rawat [[2]]
  • I am requesting removal of the topic ban.

Statement by Momento

On Nov 15th, 2012 I was indefinitely Topic Banned from all Prem Rawat articles for “Persistent Battleground Behaviour” by The Blade of the Northern Lights.[3] TBOTNL gave no warning to me nor did he provide any diffs to support his claim I was engaging in “Persistent Battleground Behaviour”. Fifteen months later when I appealed my ban at WP:AE he provided three diffs to justify continuing my ban with the disclaimer “I'm not giving my own point of view on the truth or validity of any additions or removals”. [4] I believe the three edits TBOTNL provided are fair, correct and in accordance to all Wiki policies and spirit. The first edit I made was the result of a discussion by two other editors who came to the conclusion that “the current version gives undue weight to the fringe opinion that Rawat is a cult leader.” [5] I waited two weeks for any objection to their opinion and then I proposed making the appropriate change. When no one objected to the proposed edit I waited a further 24 hours and then made the edit.[6] There were no objections or reverts. The second edit I made was on the talk page in response to a proposal by another editor (“Good suggestion. I'm happy with that”). [7] The edit proposed was to remove a superfluous material, the majority of which was a quote from Prem Rawat. [8] There were no objections or reverts. The third edit involved removing excess opinion, both positive and negative, not necessary to express the crux of the matter which was that “Rawat's affluent lifestyle was a source of controversy in the early 1970s” which I retained.[9] There were no objections or reverts. None of the edits I made, or the talk discussion that preceded them, show “Persistent Battleground Behavior," incivility or tendentious editing and the attached synopsis of the other edits made at the same time show that I was editing according to the best policies of Wikipedia. [10] My criteria for every edit was to improve the accuracy and readability of the article. I am a writer by profession and knowledgeable on the subject of Prem Rawat. I have removed both positive and negative material that bloated the article without adding value. At the time of the editing Prem Rawat was being watched by 446 editors and seventeen editors edited the article in the preceding month and none of them objected to my edits.

Additional statement by Momento

I do not believe I'm being treated fairly here. I came to Arb Com believing that my appeal would be judged on the simple criteria - does the evidence presented by TBOTNL support his claim of “Persistent Battleground Behaviour” and justify his application of an indefinite Topic Ban. Instead, the evidence presented is being ignored and other unknown criteria are being used which I am unable to address. I thank NewYorkBrad and Salvio for giving me the opportunity to respond to their concerns. Thanks.MOMENTO (talk) 02:50, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Final statement by Momento

Well I guess that's it then. I'd better get a word in before I am swept out the door. I thought my nightmare had ended when Arb Com finally recognised that Will Beback and fellow travellers had been waging a campaign of harassment against NRMs for years but his legacy lives on. Anti-NRM editors can still abuse, edit and sanction with impunity. I have made hundreds of good edits since my last one year topic ban which was, no surprise, instigated and manipulated by Will Beback and his cronies. [11] Now three years later Arb Com has once again ignored my appeal for help and rubber stamped a sanction that has no evidence or merit. It is a fraudulent sanction that stakes its legitimacy on a string of sanctions instigated and/or manipulated by an admin who is known to have used his position and his influence with other admins and Arb Com to harass and sanction dozens of well meaning editors whose only fault was to belong to an NRM, you know who you/they are. Of course I could always appeal to Jimbo but I have a feeling that it will fall on deaf ears.[12] I would like to thank NewYorkBrad and Salvio for making a tiny effort to understand what is really happening. Special mention to Seraphimblade for his prompt decline of my appeal for "my lack of judgement", you were right, I shouldn't have expected an unbiased, evidence based hearing. And a cheerio to Olive, Francis and TBOTNL, you have demonstrated the best and worst of Wikipedia.MOMENTO (talk) 02:15, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Epilogue

A quick brain teaser. Here are two links, one to the Prem Rawat lead after my last edit and one to today's version. See if you can tell which one sounds like a professionally written encyclopaedia and which one reads like a tabloid cut and paste using Wiki as a source. [13][14]Best wishes.MOMENTO (talk) 08:35, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Seraphimblade - I misunderstood the instruction above - "You can paste the template into your user space, or use an off-line text editor, to compose your request in private". Should I remove it?[15]MOMENTO (talk) 23:00, 15 August 2014 (UTC
  • @Seraphimblade - Editing a variety of articles is not a requirement to launch an appeal. I have no interest in editing other articles. My area of expertise is the history and teachings of Prem Rawat and as long as I am editing according the guidelines for WP:SPA I should be accorded the same rights as any other editor.MOMENTO (talk) 23:43, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Seraphimblade - As regards my "lack of judgement" in using a sandbox to prepare my appeal, the instructions above say I can use my "user space ... to compose my request in private". Neither my user page nor my talk page is private. The only private user space I can have is a sandbox.MOMENTO (talk) 23:56, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Seraphimblade -As you may have seen Gaijin42 has started a discussion on the talk page which concludes "Currently we are directly instructing users to violate their bans as they try to appeal them." Please reconsider your position on "my lack of judgement.MOMENTO (talk) 22:45, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Gaijin42- Thank you for having the integrity to open a topic on the talk page to point out "Currently we are directly instructing users to violate their bans as they try to appeal them." Let's hope Seraphimblade will now reconsider his position on "my lack of judgement".MOMENTO (talk) 22:45, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @The Blade of the Northern Lights - Your statement doesn't address the issue of this appeal - "Do the three edits you provided show evidence of “Persistent Battleground Behaviour” warranting a 22 month topic ban".MOMENTO (talk) 01:48, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @ Newyorkbrad - It's very easy to accumulate a list of sanctions when the fact that you've been sanctioned before is reason enough to be sanctioned again. The evidence presented here shows how easy it is to be sanctioned without a shred of evidence. This vicious circle will never end unless someone decides to judge me on what I actually did according to the diffs of the case.MOMENTO (talk) 04:02, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @ Newyorkbrad - I'm male. It's hard to specify what I would do differently going forward until I hear from the other Arb Com members. I'm hoping they'll have valuable input about my editing and how I could be a more productive editor.MOMENTO (talk) 12:58, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Worm, GorillaWarfare,Salvio - So far no one has been able to agree with TBOTNL's claim that I was engaging in “Persistent Battleground Behaviour”. So far no one has even been able to mention the phrase “Persistent Battleground Behaviour”. In fact, no one has been able to produce a single diff that shows even "Very Occasional Battleground Behaviour". The worst that anyone has been able to say about me is that I put material in my sandbox, I've been sanctioned before, I'm a SPA and I've got an attitude. So why are you denying my appeal? The claim that the Prem Rawat article would suffer if I am editing is demonstrably untrue. TBOTNL stood by for months while an anti Prem Rawat editor waged war on several editors and soon after my ban another editor (admonished during PR2) made 53 edits in two days without one word of discussion on the talk page, removing strongly sourced material from an unimpeachable authority along the way which has still not been reinserted. [17][18]MOMENTO (talk) 05:32, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Salvio - Regarding your comment - "your focus is non-neutral, as evidenced by the diffs provided by TBONL" -if you had looked at the other edits I made around that time you would see that I was also removing pro Rawat material.MOMENTO (talk) 05:42, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Salvio - Thank you for giving me a chance to address your concerns. You're correct, it doesn't matter what you call it, what matters is whether it is evidence of wrong doing. These edits don't show “Persistent Battleground Behaviour” and they don't show "tendentious editing". Nor do they show edit warring or incivility, nor are they reverts or done without considerable discussion. They are three innocuous edits that even Sandstein wrote "I wouldn't have imposed the topic ban based on the evidence presented here by the sanctioning admin. The diffs they provide are not on their face problematic, and valid editorial reasons are imaginable for them".Regarding my comment about your statement - "your focus is non-neutral, as evidenced by the diffs provided by TBONL" - my emphasis is on your view that something non-neutral is "evidenced by the diffs provided by TBOTNL. TBOTNL's diffs are not evidence of non-neutral editing, one removes positive Rawat material, one removes negative Rawat material. As for whether I was also removing positive Rawat material I provided this link in my initial statement to a summary of the seventeen edits I made in the week before I was banned and the reasons behind the edits [19] But here are three of those edits that show me removing pro-Rawat material and Rawat's own words. 1) I removed this glowing praise "One witness said that Rawat "played the whole time he was there ... he played with squirt guns, flashed pictures of himself for all to see, and took movies of everybody ... Love flowed back and forth between him and his devotees."[20] 2) I removed the opinion of Rawat supporters that - "there is no conflict between worldly and spiritual riches, and that Rawat did not advise anyone to "abandon the material world", but said it is our attachment to it that is wrong...Maharaj Ji's luxuries are gifts from a Western culture whose fruits are watches and Cadillacs," a spokesman said. Some premies said that he did not want the gifts, but that people gave them out of their love for him. They saw Rawat's lifestyle as an example of a lila, or divine play, which held a mirror to the "money-crazed and contraption-collecting society" of the West".[21] And 3) I agreed to the removal of "Rawat said, "It has nothing to do with me, it is an attempt to harm the Divine Light Mission. When someone grows, others get jealous of him, and the Divine Light Mission has just blasted like an atomic bomb all over the world".[22]. In fact, in the week before I was banned I removed more pro-Rawat material than anti. Thanks. I am more than happy to respond to any charge of improper editing if diffs are provided.MOMENTO (talk) 10:05, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Francis Shonken - Regarding your claim that "In the mean while editing environment in the Prem Rawat area has greatly improved". You are right but not because I was banned but because PatW was banned. PatW, is a fiercely anti Rawat critic who has been warned for incivility and battleground behaviour nineteen times on his talk page and countless times on the PR talk pages but numerous admins including Will Beback allowed him to continue undisciplined, making only one 24 hour block in 2008 despite years of spiteful ranting.[23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40] In the three months before I was topic banned without warning PatW was warned twice by The Blade of the Northern Lights for his incivility. On August 25th - ‘'everyone, especially you PatW, needs to cool it. I get that each "side" here is frustrated with the other, but it's not that hard to review what you're saying and remove the invective from your post before hitting the save button”.[41] And again on September 3rd on PatW's talk page - “(Pat) you have to be more tactful in your approach. I came very close to banning you from the topic, but I've decided I should give you at least one personal note to alert you to the fact that you're on my radar screen".[42] On the same day as TBOTNL allowed PatW to continue his attacks a new uninvolved editor remarked - “I came to this page to see if the allegations being made about Momento's editing were true, but what strikes me as more egregious are the constant personal attacks by PatW and Surdas. Because of the hostility and unconstructive comments by those two, I'm unwilling to get involved at this point.[43] As for your comment "allowing to update the article after unanimous talk page deliberations". After I was banned you made your first appearance to the PR article in two years and made 53 edits straight in two days without one word on the talk page, removing strongly sourced material from an unimpeachable authority along the way which has still not been reinserted.[44][45] TBOTNL was aware of FS's edits, the removal of impeccable soured material and the injection on numerous POV edits and did nothing. I hope the Arb Com now have a clearer picture of how TBOTNL allowed extreme editing by PatW and Francis Schonken whilst topic banning me for 22 months for being a victim of this harassment.MOMENTO (talk) 22:24, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved editor Gaijin42

Separate Momento's userpage content into two issues. 1) content. 2) location.

If the only issue is the location (IE he should have made that content directly as part of this appeal, not in a draft) then I strongly suggest that that particular issue be taken out of consideration, as the instructions at the top of this page explicitly say "This is not a discussion. You can paste the template into your user space, or use an off-line text editor, to compose your request in private. Do not submit your request until it is ready for consideration; this is not a space for drafts, and incremental additions to a submission are disruptive."

If on the other hand, the content of that page would not be a valid/appropriate appeal even if it had been in the correct location, then by all means proceed using that as a bit of evidence against his appeal.

Also if one thinks that that content was not indented to be part of his appeal at all, and was just a naked violation, then obviously use it in that situation as well. Gaijin42 (talk) 23:54, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by olive

If those responding here have looked at the AE on Moment, have looked at the diffs Blade presented in context of other edits, if past sanctions are being used to support a decline, if tendentious editing is also being used to support a decline (and with due respect, there probably is no more obscure way to present evidence against an editor, since evidence of tendentiousness does not, as Salvio pointed out, require any diffs, and remember, Blade had not been too in touch with the article when he made his blocks, (yes, more than one, three at first, and one of those 3 editors had made only 3 or so edits in several years while a fourth editor, the one who had been warned multiple times, and whose behaviour was abusive was not sanctioned until later), if one does not ask why it was that Jimbo Wales went right to the Prem Rawat article and added a pejorative to the lead which he had tried to add in the past and had been reverted, and if no one here believes that an uninvolved editor came to the article and saw that editors, with possibly the influence of an outside influence, began to improve collaborative skills, then I have nothing more to say except emphatically, Blade, a good admin., made a mistake. Momento was showing improvement and should be given another chance, and the atmosphere on that article was designed to bait him.


And while bold, I'd like ask, do any of you believe that Timid Guy was the first that Will Beback tried to remove, or was he the last, in along line of those who got in his way. Will Beback (who was a regular editor on this article and who was banned from any NRM articles). Why was he banned, and does that mean that those who faced him day in and day out on NRM articles should be reevaluated?


No one is perfect and editors, just people, make mistakes: Will Beback a hugely productive editor, Blade of the Northern Lights, by all accounts a good admin, and Momento a knowledgable SPA editor. Momento had improved and I see no evidence here that proves he hadn't except the few diffs of the original sanction taken out of context.


He's asked how to improve further. Maybe someone could advise him?

Salvio:Thanks for the advice on how Momento can address concerns. I was interested in that advice coming directly from an arb familiar with this case and who was hopefully neutral about Momento. I believe the original advice came from Mastcell.

  • This decline rests on the idea that Blade's sanction of three editors of which Momento was one, was called for. Its easy to prove guilt In the Wikipedia system. Its harder to show innocence and its almost impossible to show improvement that requires and understanding of what the base line behaviour was, and what other factors come into play on a talk page.

The arb clarification /appeal system seems to be a guilty unless you can prove innocence system.


This isn't my appeal, but I am heartened by the fact that arbs actually responded in a substantive way. That's a net positive in my mind. Thank you. (Littleolive oil (talk) 19:54, 19 August 2014 (UTC))[reply]

  • Francis and arbs: I found Momento very easy to work with. I didn't have an agenda one way or the other either nor did I necessarily agree with him. Further, the lead of that article hardly looks neutral. [46] How many times can you say cult in one paragraph? And as well academics in the field of NRMs like Chryssides are not overly anxious to use the word since its a known pejorative with overtones that are non-specirfic. So three times in a lead seems overkill. Having both watched that article and spent time on the talk page I dissagree with Francis vehemently.(Littleolive oil (talk) 21:07, 20 August 2014 (UTC))[reply]
  • Per Francis' comment on discussion of other editors: : Editors do not exist in isolation from one another, in vacuums. Context is critical. People are hurt, damaged, angry, tired, and also just make mistakes. Looking at all of the behaviours, the talk page, and the edits on an article is necessary. Diffs are important, but so is context.(Littleolive oil (talk) 15:08, 21 August 2014 (UTC))[reply]

Short statement by The Blade of the Northern Lights

At the last AE appeal, User:MastCell summed up the concerns I have quite well. I haven't paid an enormous amount of attention to the Prem Rawat topic area since December 2012, but I'm failing to see how this request addresses any of those concerns. Not sure if there's anything else you need to hear from me, except that I stand by my decision on the matter. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:35, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Francis Schonken

Momento is a WP:SPA. Not a single mainspace edit since his topic ban in November 2012 [47]

In the mean while editing environment in the Prem Rawat area has greatly improved, allowing to update the article after unanimous talk page deliberations. I'm involved while I contribute to those edits and discussions, was part of the Prem Rawat ArbCom cases etc. Currently all views on Rawat are represented fairly in talk page discussions and edits to the article, and the respect not to edit the article before unanimity is reached is held by all participants.

Momento is a tendentious editor difficult to work with (just speaking from general experience), doesn't fit in an environment where people allow themselves to be persuaded by arguments given by others (as it is now in Rawat-related articles). He hasn't shown otherwise in the intermediate period of topic ban. He doesn't even show to understand why he was banned. I support the commenting arbitrator's inclinations not to lift the topic ban under these conditions. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:29, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment", i.e. (in my understanding):
  • no content discussion, not on the lede of any mainspace article, nor on any other content of the encyclopedia
  • not on behaviour of anyone else but Momento (his newly added comments on a fellow editor are irrelevant for the above amendement, except that they show Momento's bad choice in current behaviour: slurs on editors, whether justified or not, don't show an improvement on better fitting in in the dynamics of content editing)
IMHO Momento can't see the bigger picture (e.g. Writing for the opponent is totally lost on him), and it's that that hasn't improved a bit afaics. For Momento the bigger picture limits itself to the teachings of a single person. That makes him an excellent follower for all I know, but a terrible editor (and indeed, difficult to work with in this environment). --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:20, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(disclosure:) above I already mentioned my involvement: for completeness: in 2008 I was blocked 48h for edit-warring with Momento on the Prem Rawat article [48] I'm OK this might diminish the weight of my statement here, just expressing my current view. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:10, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@The Blade of the Northern Lights: regarding Momento's "...and did nothing" above: that's not true is it: you warned me — which I took at heart, leading to the current more positive editing environment in the area. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:48, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Momento: In your latest edit above you added: "...I came to Arb Com believing that my appeal would be judged on the simple criteria - does the evidence presented by TBOTNL support his claim of “Persistent Battleground Behaviour” and justify his application of an indefinite Topic Ban. Instead, the evidence presented is being ignored and other unknown criteria are being used which I am unable to address...":

  1. Nobody suggested you drag in PatW. Afaik, PatW didn't ask her topic ban be lifted, nor is there any indication such request would be more successful than yours. Nobody is assessing you "in comparison to" PatW, so I don't see how you ever thought that could have worked as support against TBOTNL's claim of “Persistent Battleground Behaviour”. Trying to make PatW's past behaviour look much worse than yours is really not helping your case, independent from whether that past behaviour was de facto worse or not, while all we see is you at your worst criticising others (which is about the opposite of you showing your best behaviour, and that's what we'd presumably rather like to see).
  2. Instead of dabbling in PatW's past, maybe it would be more advantageous for you to have a look at Rainer P.'s successful topic ban lifting — Maybe the differences aren't all that big:
    1. The biggest difference is probably the past. The past can't be changed. Thus far your main line of defense in your appeal has been to try change the perception of that past, which is almost impossible (as also Littleolive oil pointed out, quoting Mastcell). Here's the small difference with what happened in Rainer P.'s ban-lifting discussion: after elaborating to some extent he was "unjustly" banned, further on in the discussion he wrote this little sentence which made a world of difference (in my view) for influencing those that deliberated the case: "I still think the ban was inappropriate to begin with, but I have no inclination to fight over this" (bolding added).
    2. Although also qualifying himself an SPA, here's the small difference: after his topic ban he contributed to Wikipedia outside the Prem Rawat topic area. These other edits were very limited ("almost none" as observed by the reviewers), but again there's a world of difference: Rainer P. showed he can contribute to the encyclopedia outside his main field of interest, unproblematically. I think in making the right impression this is exceedingly more valuable than trying to change a perception about the past.
    3. In the whole ban-lifting case Rainer P. didn't need to blacken any of his fellow-editors (past or present). Really, it is possible to sketch a context without the murky stuff.

Don't forget its who you are now who is going to be allowed or not to edit in the topic area again. It is who you are now who is weighed whether or not a net benefit to the encyclopedia. The sum is easy: useful edits to the encyclopedia since topic ban: zero. Antagonistic behaviour against fellow editors (past and present) as of the start of these amendment proceedings: level: high to very high. Sum = near bottomless energy sink for other editors. The factors making that sum are things you can start changing as of today. And then you'll see your current or next petition to be reallowed in the Prem Rawat topic area will be a piece of cake. I wish you good luck. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:11, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {yet another user}

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).


Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Moments is, as recently as this month, maintaining and editing a Prem Rawat related page at User:Momento/sandbox. I'm not inclined to lift a topic ban when it's actively being violated. Momento, it was made very clear to you at AE that you would need to show productive editing in other areas unrelated to Rawat before modification of the sanction would be considered. Decline. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:33, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Littleolive oil, I'm not sure what you think I misread. The exception to a topic ban for appealing is not to edit regarding an appeal anywhere, but rather on the appropriate pages. For an appeal at ARCA, the pages that may be edited are this one to present the case, and talk pages to provide any necessary notifications. Maintenance of a userspace archive with updated counts of editors, records of appeals, etc., is not appropriate when topic banned. It's a somewhat common misunderstanding and it's not one I'm going to block for, but it doesn't show the good judgment I'd want to see before considering modification of a sanction. Seraphimblade Talk to me 15:59, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • With due respect, I do not view the issue concerning sandbox edits as significant, given that the only edit to that page in months was drafting this appeal. What is more troubling, at least to me, is Momento's multiple instances of sanctions before the topic-ban; this was not a sanction imposed for a first offense, or at least what the AE administrators perceived as a first offense. Speaking of AE, may we have a clear link or links to the relevant AE or DS discussion(s)? Thank you. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:34, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm rarely willing to overturn topic bans. When I do, it's because I get the impression that the topic ban is no longer necessary. In this case, the topic ban still appears necessary and removing it would be a bad thing. Decline. WormTT(talk) 10:36, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It can sometimes be difficult, when it comes to tendentious editing, to point to a single diff (or a group of few diffs) and say "gotcha", especially when the editor in question seems to be using the letter of a policy against its spirit – which makes this type of tendentious editing all the more insidious. A good example of this – and one which might also guarantee plausible deniability – would be the repeated adoption of stricter criteria for the inclusion of positive (or negative) items of information about a subject, so as to make our coverage thereof more (or less) favourable. Also, WP:TEND should be read in conjunction with the principle that editors – especially SPA – ought to take care to avoid creating the impression that their focus on one topic is non-neutral. Moreover users sanctioned for disruptive behaviour are expected to improve their behaviour; failure to do so may lead to increasingly severe sanctions, even for comparatively less serious violations of policy. In this case, your conduct *has* created the impression that your focus is non-neutral, as evidenced by the diffs provided by TBONL and, so, also taking into account your recidivism, I see no reason to overturn TBONL's decision. Finally, since you have not demonstrated that the restriction is no longer necessary to prevent disruption, I cannot support lifting it at this time. Salvio Let's talk about it! 13:39, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • So far no one has been able to agree with TBOTNL's claim that I was engaging in “Persistent Battleground Behaviour”. So far no one has even been able to mention the phrase “Persistent Battleground Behaviour”. The fact that an admin correctly identified what appeared to be disruption but failed to employ the correct "nomen juris" does not invalidate the fact that there actually was actionable disruption. What he called "persistent battleground behaviour" I call "tendentious editing", but it does not alter the fact that the sanction was, in my opinion, warranted.

      Regarding your comment - "your focus is non-neutral, as evidenced by the diffs provided by TBONL", actually my comment was that your edits gave the impression that your focus was non-neutral, which is rather different, as a matter of fact. And I stand by my comment, but if you wish to provide evidence of your removal of pro-Rawat material, then I'm interested.

      Finally, in response to Olive's request for advice, Momento has already received the standard suggestion to edit in an unrelated topic area for a bit, to demonstrate his knowledge of policy and willingness to follow it and after six months come back and ask for the sanction to be lifted. However, he has clarified that he is not interested in following this procedure. Salvio Let's talk about it! 08:48, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • I do not think removing the topic ban would be wise here. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:12, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline per above. Carcharoth (talk) 23:16, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline. T. Canens (talk) 04:14, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline. LFaraone 04:28, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Amendment request: Tea Party movement

Initiated by — Arthur Rubin (talk) at 23:17, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected
Tea Party movement arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Remedy 8.1
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

N/A

Information about amendment request

Statement by your Arthur Rubin

It has been 7 months since my last reported violation of the topic ban, although this may be a technical violation, which is part of the reason for my request. Per a previous clarification, I'm allowed to revert banned editors at TPm pages, but I'm not allowed to talk about it. I was going to make an arguably gnomish edit on Citizen Koch (combining 3 references which all support the same statement into one), and, today, I discovered a MonkBot error on Tea Party movement which I technically cannot fix without violating the topic ban. I'm willing to abide by a 1RR per area of an article if it helps your decision, but I would prefer not to be bound by that in an active discussion. If I'm the second and fourth in A → B → A'b → B → B'A', I have made 2 reverts, but I'm actively working on the article. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:17, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Roger Davies. I don't see how you could reach that conclusion. I admit that I consider the IP's edit on Citizen Koch, restored by a real editor, absurd. But I wasn't planning to actually revert it. Consolidating 3 references (including the one added by the banned IP) into one isn't reverting the addition. And I was planning to revert a bot on Tea Party movement. My further discussion on a potential edit war was hypothetical, but in that particular configuration, I would be trying to improve the article, while the opponent would be attempting to revert to the present state. However, I would agree to a 1RR limitation if the committee feels it necessary. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 06:38, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I didn't mean to imply that I would be edit warring; I would prefer to be able to try variations, which would technically be "reverts", as it would probably be changing the wording (which I don't like, or find objectionable, or in violation of Wikipedia policies (but not BLP)) to something more like what was there previously, but it would never be exactly a revert. I'm willing to abide by 1RR per section or 0*RR (never revert reversions of my edits; 0RR is problematic, because of the expansive definition of "revert") if you feel it necessary. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 10:05, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In regard possible changing the topic ban to 1RR; obviously I cannot dictate the form of the remedy, but I do think the 1RR/area/week allows more legitimate editing than 1RR/article/day. Even a restriction from article-space would allow me to suggest or discuss edits which have made some articles absurd, but not a policy violation. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:33, 2 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Collect

Arthur was swept up in the prior case for fairly minor sins, and the "time served" argument which is rarely pertinent actually does apply here as he has "noted" - especially where a result occurs which makes no reasonable sense to any outside observer. Collect (talk) 15:12, 25 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

The Committee based its findings of edit-warring on the following 4 diffs:

Yep, that's right. Four reverts over the course of 5 months. Had this occurred in a 24 hour period, then sure, yes, this would be edit-warring and would warrant a 24 hour block. But it didn't happen over 24 hours. This is 5 months of editing. We don't topic ban for 4 reverts over 24 hours nor should we topic ban for 4 reverts over 5 months. If we topic-banned every editor who was at 4RR over a 5 month period, there would be scant editors to edit.

Nevermind the fact that many editors consider WP:BRD to be a best practice.

Face it, the Committee f***ed up and f***ed up royally. Not only should this request be granted, the Committee should apologize for such a ridiculous, absurd ruling. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:59, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Rich Farmbrough

Absolutely the Committee should grant this request. Arthur Rubin is a generally non-combative editor of long standing, and a good contributor. Even in this vexed area (TPM) his editing does not amount to anything sanctionable it would seem. I would urge the Committee to go further and remove the topic ban altogether. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:35, 19 August 2014 (UTC).

Statement by {yet another user}

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Thinking about the request, but in the meantime I'll just say this is the first time I've seen an edit-war described in sonata form notation. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:26, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unless I'm missing something, this does not seem to be such a good idea. Just to clarify ... the request is about restoring access to someone who has been topic-banned for edit-editing so that they may return to edit-war. No?  Roger Davies talk 08:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Motion: Arthur Rubin topic ban suspension and 1RR

For this motion there are 12 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 7 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Proposed:

Remedy 8.1 (Arthur Rubin topic banned) in the Tea Party movement case is suspended for the period of one year from the date of passage of this motion. During the period of suspension, any uninvolved administrator may as an arbitration enforcement action reinstate the topic ban for failure to follow Wikipedia's standards of conduct in the area previously covered by the ban. Such reinstatement may be appealed via the normal appeals process for arbitration enforcement actions. At one year from the date of passage of this motion, if the ban has not been reinstated or any reinstatements were successfully appealed, the topic ban will be lifted permanently.
The following restriction is enacted: Arthur Rubin is restricted indefinitely to one revert per page per week in the area of the Tea Party movement. Enforcement of this restriction shall be per the enforcement provisions in the Tea Party movement case and any enforcement actions shall be logged at the same case page. This restriction may be appealed after no less than one year from the date of passage of this motion, and if unsuccessful no less than one year following the decline of that or any subsequent appeal.
Support
  1. Seraphimblade Talk to me 13:56, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Salvio Let's talk about it! 16:40, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:54, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 22:36, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  5. I'd prefer 0RR (or Arthur's 0*RR) and would recommend he at least attempts to hold himself to that. WormTT(talk) 10:18, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  6. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:16, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  7. This seems a reasonable approach. Carcharoth (talk) 23:19, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Worth a try. T. Canens (talk) 04:14, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  9. LFaraone 04:25, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Abstain
Comments by arbitrators
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment&oldid=622455173"