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WP:AE

Requests for enforcement

Click here to add a new enforcement request
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions

Important information

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Please use this page only to:

request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic,
request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or
appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators.

For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard.

Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.

To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.

Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted.

Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change,^[a] or is no longer an administrator;^[b] or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

Standard of review
On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

A couple of reminders:

Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Wikipedia and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Wikipedia policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it.
More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.

Closing a thread:

Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct.
You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages.
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Xenovatis

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Request concerning Xenovatis

User requesting enforcement:
Jd2718 (talk) 20:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Xenovatis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Wikipedia:ARBMAC#Discretionary_sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:

(→Human rights violations: replaced cited section) At Turkish invasion of Cyprus, battleground both in tone and content, inflammatory, with a thicket of references for a single complex, accusatory sentence. The content is clearly non-encyclopedic. The content is clearly not NPOV. This form of "citation" is clearly obfuscatory.
(replace referenced and cited material) Population exchange between Greece and Turkey Revert on an article he'd already been blocked for 3rr/edit warring. Obviously not NPOV. Inflammatory. "Thicket" citation. Note "at the insistence of Kemal Ataturk who had previously ethnically cleansed..."
(see talk, also read WP:Civil about vandalism accusations) Fourth edit/rvt at Souliotes in an edit war for which he was blocked
(I opened a discussion in talk and user Balkanian word has not yet replied but insists on edit warring) Third at Souliotes
(I assure you I have conceded to nothing of the sort nor do I see this supposed consensus in Talk. Now see talk before making any more changes.) Second at Souliotes
(sources say they spoke albanian not that they were chams, discuss in talk before reverting) First edit at Souliotes in an edit war for which he was blocked
(rv turkvandal, next time you will be reported and banned) Restores photo of severed heads to Turkish Armed Forces (revert).
(rv mindless vandal) Restores severed heads to Turkish Armed Forces (revert).
(rv vandalisms) Reverts Turkish Armed Forces to add unflattering (and somewhat NPOV) text on Cyprus and on Kurdistan.
[1] Adds (improperly sourced, now deleted) of severed heads to Turkish Armed Forces.
Undid revision 294599500 by Offliner (talk) Undoes an edit without explanation at Human rights in Greece.
(jesus christ this is an FA, give it a rest) Fights over "disputed" tag at Names of the Greeks.

He was not editing from February through June, so I only used diffs from these last 3 weeks.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):

(→Civility warning (may fall under a 2007 arbitration): new section) Warning by jd2718 (talk · contribs), June 17, 2009, with the full uw-balkans2 template.
[2] Warning by jd2718 (talk · contribs) Incivility at Turkish Armed Forces, June 14, 2009.
[3] Warning by jd2718 (talk · contribs) 3rr at Population exchange between Greece and Turkey, June 13, 2009. user:Xenovatis was subsequently blocked, not necessarily for the reverts, though that was possible, but for arguing about them and denying them at the noticeboard.

The break in warnings reflects the user's absence from WP from February 8, 2009 through June 7, 2009

[4] Warning by Philip Baird Shearer (talk · contribs) for incivility at Greek genocide on February 8, 2009.
[5] Warning by Hiberniantears (talk · contribs) Adding editorial content at Turkish Armed Forces January 12, 2009. Hiberniantears later removed the warning.
[6] Warning by Nixeagle (talk · contribs) Edit warring at Skopje airport December 19, 2008.
[7] Warning by kwamikagami (talk · contribs) 3rr at two alphabet articles: Glagolitic alphabet and Early Cyrillic alphabet December 18, 2008.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
Topic ban

In theory I should ask for the least restrictive restriction that will ameliorate the situation. However, the issue is battlefield editing rather than generic edit warring, so 1rr is simply not sufficient. Again, if we could narrow the area of the ban... but he battles on articles involving all of Greece's neighbors: Albania, Macedonia, and especially Turkey... limiting the scope of the remedy would likely redirect his energy to another of Greece's neighbors.

Additional comments:
user:Xenovatis has been editing for over three years, has performed over five thousand edits. However, his presence has a net disruptive effect, and contributes to the ongoing difficulties in editing in this area. He returned June 7 from a four month hiatus, and has already managed to get himself blocked twice. When he returned, today, he jumped back in to continue his most recent conflicts.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [8]

Discussion concerning Xenovatis

Some of the material presented is concerning, and I think a topic ban of Xenovatis from all articles relating to the Macedonia arbitration cases could be warranted. (Any such topic ban would, I think, be only from the article space; I have seen no evidence of Xenovatis disrupting discussions in the talk space.) However, the main caution - warning #1, above - was issued on 17 June; most of the diffs illustrating disruption predate that warning. Although one would hope that an editor such as Xenovatis - who, as observed by the filing editor, is experienced and has been editing for good while - would be able to conduct himself without being cautioned, I am tempted to dismiss this complaint until we are presented with a more substantial folio of evidence of disruption committed after the 17 June warning. Thoughts on this note from other uninvolved administrators and from involved editors would be welcome. AGK 22:22, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The first two diffs are post-warning. He made three edits upon his return today: those two, and a talk page edit at Souliotes, which is fully protected. Not a promising return. Which is why I came here. The bulk of this report is based on two weeks of editing, with two blocks, after a four month break. On the other hand, while the unfortunate necessary outcome is clear to me, there is not urgency, and I would certainly understand slow, deliberate consideration. I don't favor dismissal (I wouldn't have filed if I did), but I would understand dismissal for now as well. What is clear to me may not yet be clear in the diffs. Jd2718 (talk) 22:35, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note: the complaints about Xenovatis are not really directly related to the Macedonia case, at least not in the narrow sense of the naming dispute treated in WP:ARBMAC2 (although they do of course fall under the scope of the general sanctions of ARBMAC1). As far as I can see, these are partly Greek-Albanian and partly Greek-Turkish issues, not Macedonian ones. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:33, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was concerned about that, but ARBMAC was drawn very broadly:

1) The disputes presented in this case, while focusing specifically on issues related to Macedonia, are part of a broader set of conflicts prevalent over the entire range of articles concerning the Balkans; see, for example, the Dalmatia case and the Kosovo case. Many of these conflicts are grounded in matters external to Wikipedia, including long-standing historical, national, and ethnic disputes in the region. The area of conflict in this case shall therefore be considered to be the entire set of Balkan-related articles, broadly interpreted.

Jd2718 (talk) 22:39, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To Future Perfect: By "[topic banned] from all articles relating to the Macedonia arbitration cases," I did not mean "from articles relating to Macedonia" - but rather from all subject areas involved in the arbitration case named "Macedonia." In other words, my comment referred to Macedonia (arbitration case) and not to Macedonia (subject area). AGK 23:00, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User Jd2849 has edit warred against me and has also spent about 10x the time in writting this report and another one as he has in the article's talk page. It is obvious he is gaming the system to get me banned instead of discussing his removal of cited material in the article's talk page, something which I am not sure is encouraged by WP guidelines. This is clearly an example of WP:GAME and bad faith editing on his part. --Xenovatis (talk) 04:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As for net negative effect I find that offensive as it is completely unfounded and comes from a user who also has a clear ethnic bias in his edits but has a much smaller contribution to WP than myself. I contributed greatly to bringing the Greeks article to GA status and added tens of citations to that article while I have also prepared 4 full talk pages of material for others to draw from, again on that article. I have created dozens of article on Renaisance Greek grammarians and fully cited them. My latest article created is Robert_Browning_(Byzantinist). If anyone should have to face sanctions it is Jd3459 whose behavior has been disruptive and consists of edit warring and gaming the system instead of discussing.--Xenovatis (talk) 04:45, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Xenovatis is a prolific editor in Greece-related articles, and a valuable contributor to the project. At the same time, he has repeatedly edit-warred and demonstrated an attitude not to the expected level. For instance, this response to a warning is completely inappropriate, and indicates that he does not understand his wrong-doing. There are, however, two conflicting behaviors here. I would never supported a topic-ban, because I would not like to lose a valuable editor from the field, but I wouldn't oppose other measures, such as a revert-parole or a civility restriction or mentoring under the "or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project" provision.--Yannismarou (talk) 14:11, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I broadly agree with Yannismarou insofar as that Xenovatis is one of the most productive and articulate editors on Greece related articles. In particular, he has done excellent work on the Greeks article, which was in fairly poor condition prior to receiving his attention. Editors such as Xenovatis are quite rare on Greece-related topics, and a topic ban would be harmful to these articles. On the other hand, I would argue that the single-mindedness (bordering on obsession) with which Jd is wikihounding Xenovatis is disruptive to the encyclopedia. Following a disagreement on July 14th over Population exchange between Greece and Turkey, Jd has used every possible opportunity to pursue a vendetta over Xenovatis, such as this on 17 July [9]. This latest report, which must have taken hours to compile, is a further case in point. I would recommend that Jd be advised to edit wikipedia in a productive manner and stop pursuing meaningless vendettas against productive editors. --Athenean (talk) 22:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Meaningless vendetta? The fact that this user was blocked twice in as many weeks is a clear indicator that he is having difficulty keeping himself in check with policy. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 13:05, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that it was twice in as many years seems to have escaped you. As well as the fact that one of those times was at the instigation of Jd298.--Xenovatis (talk) 17:05, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Questions to the complainants

What article(s) were involved in the 14 June 2009 block for edit warring?
What is the evidence of disruptive editing after Xenovatis returned from the 17 June block?
"Battleground editing" is a subjective term. It could be used simply to describe adding content that another editor does not like, and NPOV is often in the eye of the beholder. To deserve a topic ban, the problem must go beyond simply editing from a different perspective. Some examples include (but not limited to) continually adding disputed content over a period of weeks or months when consensus is against it; adding disputed content when there is an agreement to keep the article in a neutral pre-dispute state during discussion, that one "side" honors but he does not; attempting to "win" discussions by personal attacks and other negative behavior rather than by force of argument alone, and so forth. Can you present (or re-present) your case, focusing on this issue. (Be concise, please.) Thatcher 13:56, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Responses

The June 14 block was for editing on Population exchange between Greece and Turkey. The June 17 block was for editing on Souliotes.
Xenovatis' second block expired June 19. He performed 3 edits on the 21st: a revert on Population exchange between Greece and Turkey, a revert on Turkish invasion of Cyprus, and a talk page edit on Souliotes (the article was locked). It was that immediate return to form which motivated me to file this report. On the 22nd he responded to this report and again reverted on Turkish invasion of Cyprus. He has performed two innocuous edits since.
Thatcher, the criteria for a topic ban you mention seem to exceed those set by arbitration: "Any uninvolved administrator may, on their own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if that editor fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, the expected standards of behavior, or the normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; restrictions on reverts; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project. Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision." The conditions and sanctionable behaviors you offer (continually adding disputed content over a period of weeks or months when consensus is against it; adding disputed content when there is an agreement to keep the article in a neutral pre-dispute state during discussion, that one "side" honors but he does not; attempting to "win" discussions by personal attacks and other negative behavior rather than by force of argument alone) while you indicate that they are not inclusive, seem narrower and at a far higher threshold than ArbCom's intent.

Battleground editing is a subjective term. In addition to the categories you mention, there is editing that serves no purpose other than to advance a battle - not a battle between editors, but a battle between countries.

addition of severed heads which is removed and he reverts several times. Is this an honest editorial difference, or an example of battleground editing?
restore <-- This is the edit that led to the conflict that led to the June 14 block. I don't know why he is reverting to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey&oldid=263535510 the version he saved on January 29, 2009), but he is. I am fairly confused about which facts each of the seven footnotes in the lead is supposed to document, however, I know that at least one of them (Clark) has been cherry-picked; the book blames the governments of both Greece and Turkey for the plight of the refugees, but the cite chooses a page on which Clark assigns blame to Ataturk. I assume that all other 6 references are problematic. In general, clustered citations from print sources should make those working in areas of conflict nervous.

If the diffs provided initially are not sufficient to show editing "failing to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia... and the normal editorial process" then you should close this report without sanction. However, if those criteria, and not some more stringent criteria, have been met, the suggestions others have made for a sanction less than topic ban may be appropriate. Jd2718 (talk) 23:20, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

While I will not dignify the rest of Jd2546's rant with an answer I will respond to the point made about the citations, seven of them, which he removed from the article instead of discussing their content. This is clearly unacceptable behaviour, WP guidelines from JW himself, insist on removal of uncited material on sight which is in fact the opposite of removing citations. Especially when they support exactly what is mentioned on text. Jd2871 did exactly that, not on one but several occasions. These citations were the result of several hours worth of painstaking research through the bibliography, work which so far Jd has only put in wikihounding me away from editing the article as opposed to finding any more sources. The citation from Clark for instance clearly mentions that the exchange took place at the insistance of Attaturk and was later agreed by Greece which is exactly what the article states. The other citations eg Sofos and Ozdemir validate the point made in text that the majority of the Greek exchangees had allready been expelled by the time the Treaty was signed. Again all this is information unknow to Jd who never took the trouble, in his own admission, to actually look the citations before removing them and edit warring to secure their removal. It is contrary to WP's purpose that this amount of wikilawyering should even be taking place when the instigator has hardly devoted a hundredth of the time he has wikihounding me on the article itself. This behaviour borders on wikitrolling.--Xenovatis (talk) 13:52, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Xenovatis

Xenovatis is subject to a 1 revert per week editing restriction on all articles within the area of conflict defined by Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia. He is prohibited from making more than one reversion per week per article, not including obvious vandalism. A reversion is any edit that substantially restores the article to prior content, whether or not it is a reversion in the purely technical sense. All reversions must be discussed on the article talk page. Violations will result in escalating blocks. He may request to have the 1RR limit reviewed or lifted after 3 months. (It is simply too soon after the expiration of the previous blocks to know whether they will have any effect on his behavior. The 1RR limit should, in theory, encourage him to discuss issues collaboratively on the affected article talk pages. Further sanctions can be considered if he violates the 1RR limit or continues to act disruptively. Thatcher 15:46, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some sort of justification would have been nice at about this point. You can start by explaining the use of ArbMac on an unrelated issue.--Xenovatis (talk) 16:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This case is within the area of conflict, i.e., "the entire set of Balkan-related articles, broadly interpreted." Thatcher has provided an adequate explanation of his sanction, which I endorse. Sandstein 16:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, he most certainly has not. While Arbmac could be cited he does not explain how exactly it was violated. This kind of sanction after several thousand edits in WP will need at least some sort of justification. Which is not provided in the above statement by Thatcher.--Xenovatis (talk) 17:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since no objections by other admins are forthcomings, I am archiving this section. Sandstein 06:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Xenovatis, while you have a long history of productive contributions, you also have a recent history of editing problems. You've made about 110 edits since you came back from your last break and gotten involved in several disputes and been blocked twice for 3RR violations. A 1RR sanction is very mild, no editor needs to revert in order to edit cooperatively. If there are other editors with behavioral problems that interfere with cooperative editing you can report them here. Thatcher 00:34, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Parishan

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Parishan

User requesting enforcement:
Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 23:13, 24 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Parishan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan_2#Amended_Remedies_and_Enforcement

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:
Severe edit warring in the past 3 weeks:

Gago Drago [10], [11] The name of the town was Verinshen in 1985, when he was born, Parishan replaces it with the current Azeri renamed name.

Ganja [12] Foreign names were first removed by Proger. Parishan reverted to that version. [13], [14], [15]

Julfa [16] Brandmeister removed the Armenian spelling (he called it tweaked). Parishan reverted to that version. [17], [18], [19]

Azerbaijani people [20] Parishan placed them as Hanafi, then reverted when that is replaced. [21], [22].

Kars [23], Atabek removed the Armenian term and replaced it with Georgian. Parishan reverts to that version. [24]

On Lingua Franca he launched a slow revert war that he resumed recently. It all started several months ago when VartanM removed Parishan's addition. [25]. From then on, Parishan engaged in a slow revert war. [26], [27]. Mackrakis modified it to comply with the sources Parishan used, it did not satisfy Parishan. [28], he continued to revert war. [29], [30], [31], [32], [33], [34], [35], [36]. He stopped for a while, but recently started again. [37], [38], [39].

Made drastic changes to the Armenian churches template. [40], followed by a partial revert. [41] then revert: [42]

Removed the link to Armenia from an Armenian monastery. [43], then reverted the compromise. [44]

Revert war with IPs here. [45], [46], [47], [48], [49], [50], [51]. Then continues against registered users. [52], [53]

I think this is sufficient to get the picture. If not, I will add more. Note that Parishan was almost placed under restrictions during AA1 already. See here: I will not hesitate to initiate a motion to modify this remedy after the case is closed if you involve yourself in edit wars or other disruptive types of editing.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):
See below, under 'Additional comments'.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
High time for AA2 restrictions to apply to Parishan

Additional comments by Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!!:
Note that Parishan was informed officially (that is by uninvolved admins) twice of AA2 restrictions, here and here unlike most users. While the initial reverts were against AzeriTerroru (probable sock account), they are mostly reverts to recent controversial changes. Rest of the reverts were against other users.

In the recent past, various admin’s have confirmed that Parishan has a tendency to edit war but he's not under restrictions. See Deacon of Pndapetzim 's comment and the following report here.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested:
[54]

Discussion concerning Parishan

Statement by Parishan

What we see here is a random collection of all article reverts (controversial, non-controversial, sockpuppet reverts, anonymous vandalism reverts, and even plain edits) that I happened to perform in the past three weeks presented here as a gigantic list of instances of 'edit warring.'

In addition to not being a revert, edit (1) is merely clarification of non-controversial information. It does not take a wiseman to figure out that being born in the given town physically cannot imply being born in the mentioned region. Mind you, it was never disputed further, so the term edit warring does not apply here.

Edits (2) through (12) are reverts of a sockpuppet who could not think of anything better to do than to stalk edit histories of Azerbaijan-related article contributors undoing all their recent edits. His/her reverts would have to be undone eventually.

Edits (12) through (15) do not qualify as 'edit warring.' The other party removed information without consulting the provided sources, but the issue was quickly resolved on the article's talkpage.

Edits (16) through (18) are definitely not edit warring. In fact, with those edits I expanded the template adding more links that pertained to the topic and are not disputed (they are still in the template), and left a comment on the talkpage. My single revert in edit (19) was triggered by the other party either not having noticed the proposed discussion on the talkpage or not willing to participate in it. With that, I did not engage in any more reverts.

I wish I could comment on edits (20) and (21) but I am clueless as to what User:Eupator meant by posting them here. Are they supposed to qualify as 'edit warning'? Please elaborate.

Edits (22) and (23) are one-time edits in different articles; calling them 'edit-warring' seems too harsh.

Edits (24) to (27) are reverts of an anonymous vandal who 'specialised' in removing references to Azeris and the Azeri language from as many Iran-related articles, as s/he stumbled upon, and specifically in the case with Farah Pahlavi in removing sourced information about the personality's ancestry. I have tried twice [55] [56] to get the page at least temporarily semi-protected in order to put an end to this IP-switching user's disruptive activity, but neither time the administration considered this case of vandalism severe enough. Parishan (talk) 05:57, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by other editors

Eupator, could you please improve the presentation of the evidence so that we can establish more easily whether this is indeed edit-warring? For instance, I am unable to easily determine whether edit #1 is even a revert of somebody. You could complement each entry in the list with the name of the article affected, a diff of the revision reverted to, and the name of the editor who is being warred with. Sandstein 05:36, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In hindsight I see how spending a little more time to organize the diffs would have helped you guys to sort through them.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 20:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Eupator, have you ever been involved with a content dispute with this editor? It seems likely because you were a named party in the first AA case. I feel we need to do a thorough review of their entire editing over the last few months (to avoid judging on cherry picked diffs), and we should also review your editing (to establish whether you come here with clean or unclean hands). We should not permit editors to use this board as a tactic to gain the upper hand in content disputes. Jehochman ^Talk 22:16, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

AzeriTerroru (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) appears to be a single purpose, edit warring account, possibly a sock puppet. I think we need to determine who's running that account. It takes two (or more) to edit war. There is no sense in sanctioning only one side of an edit war. Jehochman ^Talk 22:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Already blocked by Nishkid64, sock of Shahin Giray (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Thatcher 00:37, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Eupator, what sanctions exactly do you request? The modified AA2 remedies are very broad and allow admins to do almost anything. Parishan has already been notified of the case and the remedies, the next step would be to apply some sort of specific measure. What do you request? Thatcher 00:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Merely the application of standard revert/civility parole (one revert per page per seven-day period with respect to any article that reasonably deals with AA issues) for the duration deemed necessary.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 01:37, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Hi Thatcher, gotta say i'm impressed :) However I still believe that Parishan's reverts are part of a disturbing pattern though. One good example is with the article of Kars. On that article Parishan attempted to incorporate the modern Azeri term with a long history of revert warring. [57], [58], [59], [60], [61], [62]. Unsuccessful, the Armenian name was removed altogether just recently by Atabek, and when reverted Parishan reverted back. In my opinion Parishan very often uses his additional revert privileges against users under 1RR. On Lingua Franca, this report by Fedayee may be helpful: [63].-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 02:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am aware that content dispute is not allowed here, but for clarity sake I have to note that 'Verinshen' was never the name of that town (this is regarding the edits in Gago Drago). See 28-76 on this Soviet-issued map. Parishan (talk) 08:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thatcher, I do not see a need in banning from editing the page Lingua franca. Perhaps you did not notice that the discussion regarding Azeri involved two sections on the talkpage. In the first section, after the third party review of the issue, I discovered another source and restored the deleted information having provided this new reference (as opposed to "reverting Mackrakis' version", as Eupator is trying to present it here). User:VartanM reverted this edit but ignored my proposition to continue the discussion. I let the crippled version hang in there, even though it was no fault of mine that VartanM's disagreement stemmed merely from being uncomfortable with the word "Azeri" being used on Wikipedia (anyone who has read the talkpage can see that he had not cited a single academic source or provided any plausible scienfitic counter-argument in response to about six sources he was presented with). So this is not a case of me insisting on the importance of "Azeri"-ness; really this is a case of VartanM and Fedayee having a problem with the academic use of the word "Azeri" all throughout articles on Wikipedia despite its academic validity (in fact, VartanM has been reported precisely for deliberately stripping Wikipedia of mentionings of Azeris and Azerbaijan [64]). Since February I have discovered two or three more independent pieces of evidence to back up the information he kept removing. This time it did not cause any disagreement or controversy. So I really have no idea why I am being considered for punishment as a result of my activity in this article. I would say, I did my best as an editor having had the patience to spend four months on the talkpage over one sentence backed by six or seven sources (found and cited by myself) reacting on outrageously unacademic statements from someone who was clearly trying either to wear me out or to temporise. I am all for reaching compromise, but compromise is not possible when the other party has literally nothing on the table except speculations: no sources, no stable arguments, not even a clear idea of what they are trying to disprove. Also note that while this discussion is going on here, an anonymous account goes around all of the said articles deleting the information added by me, as if attempting to provoke me to edit warring. Parishan (talk) 03:35, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note that Greiwood (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who was involved in the edit war at Ganja, is blocked as a sockpuppet of a banned user. Thatcher 04:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd like to hear what VartanM and Fedayee have to say about Lingua franca. Thatcher 04:53, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I will keep this short and concise. The problem is not that Parishan isn't using sources but that the sources he uses do not say what he claims they say. He assumes too much from them. Under those circumstances, I can just not pretend that Parishan ignores the sources he is using do not support his wording and that's why it's impossible to debate with him. See my reply on Lingua Franca here. He also added a new source, but the source is not clear. Note also Parishan's consideration of the other editors version: "...the page is being reverted back to its non-vandalised state." As for the claimed removal of Azeri, Parishan shows a claimed report (his edit) but fails to provide the actual initial reply by VartanM here, the problem was anachronism something which Parishan never addressed. Note that other users' skepticism in trusting that discussion will lead anywhere in Parishan's case is because time and time again he ignores what others say. See those long two replies by an editor here about Parishan's created article [65], [66]. Parishan does not even bother replying to anything, the only comment he leaves is this after he removes the tag, when most of the reasons given to have the tag have nothing to do with this. If a revert war starts, he has a revert advantage over other editors so no one bothers reverting. That's all I'm going to add for now. - Fedayee (talk) 17:52, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For anyone willing to look through the discussion, I think it is enough to assess the quality of argumentation on each side to realise who was driven by a desire to contribute productively to Wikipedia and whose only goal was bad-faith POV-pushing. Parishan (talk) 19:57, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest to that "anyone" to also have a look at the "sources". Sardur (talk) 23:34, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let them be my guests. Parishan (talk) 02:01, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If it wasn't for Moreschi's intervention here, where he pointed out the obviously more relevant title, you would have continued lumping all Turkic speakers as Azeris. The sources you provide fall vert short of supporting the sentences you put together. You even justified the following and never changed your behaviour since. Here's a simple example of how you cherry pick sources: [67]. You're providing a 1942 map in Russian knowing very well that after that map was produced most of those names were changed as seen here. Even cherry picking has its bounds. Thatcher, I invite you to mediate a discussion in lets say this article and see for yourself what the real problem with Parishan's articles is. Only on few occasions did Parishan correct articles in accordance with the sources, such as here (the source said Turkic). I think you get the picture.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 00:34, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Eupator, your desire to fantasise does not limit itself even here. This is an entry from the 1978 issue of the Great Soviet Encyclopædia regarding what you refer to as 'Verinshen.' None of the sources you provided say anything about any 'renaming.'

To administrators: above is exactly the type of behaviour that the users who are reporting me here frequently display during discussions. Speculations, original research and pushing false information despite having facts in front of their eyes in the form of sources, later collective reverting, initiating a chain of countless reverts and as a culmination, reporting the other party for 'POV-pushing' and 'edit warring.' Parishan (talk) 02:01, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Eupator and Parishan, please stop discussing your disagreements here and limit yourself to comments strictly relevant to the question whether or not Parishan's conduct is disruptive as claimed in the enforcement request. Sandstein 05:39, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I know I went off topic. My argument is that 1) Parishan regularly edit wars, 2) He is very often uncivil as seen above ("your desire to fantasise does not limit itself even here") 3) Sees Wiki as a battlefield. For a long while he used to refer to everyone he didn't agree with as an opponent in quite a condescending manner until he was warned not to:[68]. The rest is your run of the mill content dispute and only Thatcher and Moreschi seem to be willing to dig deep and research each matter closely. If Thatcher wants to place new types of restrictions it would be nice to see them enforced.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 15:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sandstein, I apologise, but I think this little debate says quite a lot about how my edits come to be considered 'disruptive' by Eupator and certain other uses who are heavily involved in the editing of Armenia-Azerbaijan-related articles. Whenever POV-pushing cannot do its trick, the other party's edits are seen as 'disruptive.' Parishan (talk) 03:56, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Eupator, I have been and still am referring to them as opponents. I have never been warned or been told about its 'condescending' connotation. OED defines an opponent as 'a person who disagrees with or resists a proposal', which is what happens during Wikipedia discussions. An example of it being used in a sentence: 'I should not be held responsible for my opponent's poor command of English.' Parishan (talk) 03:50, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One interesting point that should not be lost is Sandstein (below) actually complaining about administrators needing to evaluate the content of a contested edit before taking sanctions. The implication in that comment is that Sandstein thinks it OK to shoot first and never even bother to ask questions later. This explains much about his scattergun approach to inflicting sanctions on editors. From several past examples I had assumed he was displaying a most blatant bias. Is it actually the case that he just doesn't give a damn? I would hope that evaluating the content of an edit before applying sanctions would be a basic requirement expected of all administrators. Meowy 18:39, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Parishan

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Analyzing the diffs. Thatcher 01:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Analysis

Gago Drago, Parishan inserts a new fact where article was previously stable, reverts once to keep it, no discussion on talk page
Ganja, reverts 3 times (twice against sockpuppet), no discussion
Julfa, 3 reverts (2 against sock), discussion but he does not participate
Azerbaijani people, content dispute, Parishan added what look to be reliable sources when questioned, no discussion on talk page
Kars, one revert against sock, no discussion
Lingua franca, slow revert war against VartanM and Fadayee, extensive discussion seems to be going nowhere, Parishan attempting to provide sources, others dispute his sources. Issue is whether Azeri was ever a regional lingua franca.
Template, 2 reversions (no banned users or socks), some discussion, reverting against Serouj
Gtichavank Monastery, reverting against Serouj, no discussion on talk page
Farah Pahlavi, edit war with Megastrike14 (who edits a lot while logged out), no discussion on talk page

Comments Lots of contentious editing about the importance of "Azeri-ness" in place names, etc. Many attempts to provide sources, or better sources. Discounting the sockpuppet who was stirring up trouble, most of the remaining reversions are not of major concern. However, use of article talk pages is rare.

Preliminary recommendations: I am contemplating the following,

Banning Parishan, VartanM and Fedayee from Lingua franca indefinitely. They can discuss there issue on the talk page, and when they have reached a stable compromise, the article ban will be rescinded.
Placing Megastrike14 and Serouj on formal notice about the case and possible remedies. Warning Megastrike about logged out edits.
Warning Parishan to use talk pages more often to negotiate disputed edits rather than reverting (and sometimes trying to explain edits in edit summaries).

Not sure that further is required at this time. Thatcher 01:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have a further suggestion. I am not sure that 1RR is warranted at this time. Eupator's evidence shows a pattern of Parishan adding Azeri spellings, place name variants, and evidence that people or things were Azeri, but also removing Armenian spellings, place name variants, and links to things or people being Armenian. I'm considering an editing restriction on Parishan, that he may add Azeri spelling and name variants to articles where he believe it appropriate, and where he has reliable sources, but he may not remove Armenian place names, links, and spelling variants from any article. He may suggest such on the talk pages. If there is consensus to remove Armenian names, links and spellings, then someone else may do it. If there is no consensus among the usual editors, Parishan is advised to seek outside advice by RFC or third opinion, or to seek compromise. I'd like to know what other admins think about this; if it seems that it might work, there are several other editors this restriction could be applied to.
I think that a frequent problem with these articles, which I just realized, is that the inclusion of a linguistic or cultural variant place name or spelling in the lead of an article is used as a way of marking the territory, to say, "See, there is an Azeri name for this place, that proves that it used to be Azeri even though its current status is in dispute." Or, "The Armenians never lived here before the current geopolitical dispute so giving this place an Armenian name is wrong." (Substitute any other ethnic, cultural or political group of your choice.) The use of the lead in this way, to gain traction in a geopolitical dispute, is wrong. In some cases articles contain a discussion of the subject's disputed status, where variant names can go. ("Smith 1998 says the Azeri name for the region was XXX, but Jones 2001 says the Azeris were never a significant presence in the region.") I think there are a lot of editors who are dicking around with adding and removing linguistic variants to the leads of articles, for geopolitical reasons, maybe we can stop this. Presumably, an editor with an affinity for group A will be able to find references to support his argument, if so he should be allowed to add it. But he can not directly remove group B, only propose it on the talk page. We could limit it to the lead and to categories, since that is where most of the trouble is, or make it global. Think it will work in general? Thatcher 05:11, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the extensive analysis, which I believe is quite correct, especially with regard to the general problem of addition and removal of place names etc. on account of presumed geopolitical bias. Your preliminary recommendations are uncontroversial, I think, and I find your proposed sanction with respect to territorial behavior interesting. I'm not sure, though, whether it is easily enforceable, because administrators would need to evaluate the content of each contested edit individually. Also, editors behaving in this way can be assumed to edit non-neutrally in other respects with regard to their favored group, as well. Might it be easier to just issue brief topic bans to editors that exhibit territorial behavior (i.e., consistently adding/removing contested names, spelling variants, categories etc)? In this case, we may also need to outline the general concept in some guideline related to WP:NPOV. Sandstein 05:33, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

With respect to admins evaluating content, that already happens, for example, an article about a pop singer would not normally fall under this case, but would if the editors were fighting about his or her nationality. We already know that editors in this area edit non-neutrally with respect to ethnic and cultural divisions. We don't normally sanction people for having an ethno-cultural POV, but for bad editing behavior in connection with that POV (edit warring, ignoring consensus, dismissing otherwise acceptable sources, personal attacks, etc.) I'm struck by the seemingly large number of disputes that involve article leads and categories. The question for me is whether this would avoid some disputes or merely shift their location to the body of the article. I think it's worth a time-limited test. Insterested in further admin input. Thatcher 11:01, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the territorial behaviour sanction is too easily gamed. The others seem fine. Stifle (talk) 11:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jarvis76

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Jarvis76

User requesting enforcement:
Gazifikator (talk) 09:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Jarvis76 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Log_of_blocks_and_bans, also [69]

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:

[70] First revert
[71] Second revert

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):
{{{not required}}}

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
block

Additional comments by Gazifikator (talk):
The user Jarvis76 is pov-pushing to Armenian Genocide article, while it is under 1RR rule [72]. During a 24-hour period Jarvis76 reverted the lead of article twice, without any explanations at talk. Gazifikator (talk) 09:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested:
[73]

Discussion concerning Jarvis76

Statement by Jarvis76

Comments by other editors

Please amend the request to specify the specific sanction or remedy that you think this user violated. Sandstein 10:34, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The article Armenian Genocide (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) has a notice on the talk page that the article (all editors) has been placed on 1RR per day limit, and all reverts must be discussed on the talk page, subject to blocking. This is a clear violation. However, since there are so many other notices on the talk page I would like to see evidence of a politely worded caution issued to the user on their first offense, and if no such warning had been issued, I would issue one here. Because the account is a sockpuppet, I'm going to block it straightaway, so consider this comment as advice on presenting the next similar report. And you can make it easier on us by showing us the diff of a prior notification, so we don't have to hunt for it, much appreciated. Thatcher 11:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Jarvis76

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Sockpuppet of indef blocked user Tevfik Fikret (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), now indef blocked himself. Thatcher 11:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Loosmark

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Loosmark

User requesting enforcement:
Skäpperöd (talk) 15:57, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Loosmark (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:

Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Final_decision
- quote section "Remedies/Discretionary sanctions": "Editors wishing to edit in these areas are advised to edit carefully, to adopt Wikipedia's communal approaches (including appropriate conduct, dispute resolution, neutral point of view, no original research and verifiability) in their editing, and to amend behaviors that are deemed to be of concern by administrators. An editor unable or unwilling to do so may wish to restrict their editing to other topics, in order to avoid sanctions."
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus_2#Final_decision, esp. this part
- quote section "Remedies/Editors reminded": "... writing with a neutral point of view, remaining civil and avoiding personal attacks, utilizing reliable sources for contentious or disputed assertions."

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:

[74], [75], [76]: POV-pushing/edit warring at Expulsion of Germans after World War II, failure to adhere to utilization of verifiable reliable sources, battlefield mentality. See detailed background in "Additional comments".
[77], [78], [79] POV-pushing/edit warring at Polish Corridor, failure to adhere to utilization of verifiable reliable sources, disregard of already introduced sources, battlefield mentality. See detailed background in "Additional comments".
[80] (same as third diff in [1]), [81] (same as second diff in [2]), [82] abuse of edit summaries for assaults

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):
"Not applicable." But warned anyway:

[83] Warning by Skäpperöd (talk · contribs)
Loosmark has been around at this board in previous threads concerning the Digwuren ArbCom and thus should know what they are about.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
Loosmark makes valueable contributions in the motorsports area, the problems only concern Eastern Europe. Thus, topic ban or some sort of counseling.

Additional comments by Skäpperöd (talk):
Situation at Expulsion of Germans after World War II

[84] an account introduces an unsourced controversial line into the background section. This insertion is the only major edit of this account, the other two are [85] of 2008 and [86] in June 2009.
[87] I undo (20 June)
[88] user:Radeksz re-introduces the line verbatim (21 June)
[89] I revert (21 June)
[90] Radeksz reverts (23 June)
[91] I separate the controversial statement from the rest of the paragraph, add an "under discussion" tag and start a discussion at talk [92] (23 June)
[93] Loosmark joins the discussion. (23 June)
Between 23 and 25 June, the discussion developed completely unfocussed, I withdrew on the evening of 23 June. No sources provided thereafter, only WP:POINTs.
[94] In an extra subsection of the thread, I made a definite proposal for an altered text I thought everyone could agree upon. (25 June)
As the proposal was not objected to for two days, I introduced it [95] and removed the controversial statement [96] (27 June)
[97] Loosmark reintroduces the removed (controversial) statement, but left the newly introduced line in place. (27 June)
[98] Since I believed Loosmark had simply overlooked that the removal was preceeded by the introduction of the other, unobjected line, I reverted and explained this in the edit summary. (27 June)
[99] Loosmark reverts. (27 June)
[100] user:Elysander reverts. (27 June)
[101] Loosmark reverts accusing Elysander of being my "buddy"
[102] Elysander reverts. (27 June)
[103] user:Jacurek reverts. (27 June)

For the parallel discussion, read Talk:Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#Nazi-occupied_Warsaw. Be aware that the thread is not chronological, and that the thread is actually about everything but the controversial line. See my attempts to get the discussion focussed and how they were disregarded.

Now we have a situation that an unsourced, emotional statement, not by a single source connected to the scope of the article, not by a single source shown to be factually acurate, disputed by many editors, remains in the article because of the combined efforts of user:Radeksz, User:Loosmark and user:Jacurek, who are obviously thinking that stuff like this may only be removed "by consensus". I expect the reviewing admins to give some advise how to deal with situations like that. I thought about opening an RfC, but the idea of an RfC on a statement not even complying to WP:RS and WP:V seems pretty ridiculous. My position on this is that per WP:RS and per remedy Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus_2#Editors_reminded a removal is justified and its re-introduction constitutes a violation of both the policy and the remedy.

Situation at Polish Corridor

Diffs above, here Loosmark exchanged the header of the section "Establishment of the corridor", which is without doubt a very neutral way to title the section dealing with the establishment of the corridor, with "Poland regains independence". Loosmark also altered the first lines of the section, displacing a reference. No discussion.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested:
notified

Discussion concerning Loosmark

Statement by Loosmark

Ok I'll to be to brief. The problem we have here is that Skäpperöd gets nervous as soon as somebody has the courage to oppose his POV in various articles. He was creating great dramas all over the Expulsion of Germans after World War II talk page over a single sentence which shortly described German atrocities in Warsaw to explain at least a little why many Poles had anti-German feelings after the war. He also acted dishonestly because it was very clear from the talk page that I opposed the elimination of that sentence but he just lied that nobody was opposing his proposal for 2 days and simply went on with it.

Regarding the Polish Corridor article yes I did exchange the without doubt very neutral title header "Establishment of the corridor" which is in reality an unbelievably hard German POV. The facts are that after World War I the only thing that was established was an Independent Polish State. The area in question was part of the Pomeranian Voivodeship, had a clear Polish majority therefore it was simply and rightfully part of Poland. The German politicians started to push this "Polish corridor" term which then escalated into Hitler and the Nazis trying to wrestle the area from Poland and finally using it as one of the excuses for starting WW2. I stand behind my edit, even more so because the article is still very disbalanced in favor of a German POV, please see the article on Polish wikipedia for comparison: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korytarz_polski

As for the all diffs which Skäpperöd produced and painted in such a dramatic fashion, what is he saying is downright absurd. He was the one who was hysterically trying to get the sentence removed because it didn't suit his POV. About that Elysander, he never edited that specific article before, nor did he participate in the discussion on the talk page, he just came to that page to make reverts, which were, oh surprise, basically the same that Skäpperöd was doing.

What is completely unbelievably that Skäpperöd has the nerve to accuse me of edit warring and battlefield mentality since he's famous for entering countless disputes with Polish editors due to his hard POV. We have a classical case of the pot calling the kettle black, as is clear by taking a look at the articles he edits. I can only conclude that Skäpperöd's only intention here is to get rid of editor(s) which have a different view than his own so that he can shape the articles completely the way he wants. Therefore I propose his proposal for sanctions is dismissed and he is advised to, how shall i put it, stop screaming "calamity, global calamity" if he can't have it his way every single time. Loosmark (talk) 17:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Another thing, this sentence Now we have a situation that an unsourced, emotional statement, not by a single source connected to the scope of the article, not by a single source shown to be factually acurate, disputed by many editors, remains in the article because of the combined efforts of user:Radeksz, User:Loosmark and user:Jacurek, who are obviously thinking that stuff like this may only be removed "by consensus". is blatantly false. First I reject Skäpperöd's POV claim that is an "emotional statement", second Skäpperöd cannot be the sole and ultimate judge what info belongs to an article and third the only other editor which disputed, indirectly, that sentence is ANNRC. Woogie10w initialy supported the connection between the events in Warsaw and the expulsions and even provided a source but later apparently changed his mind (Woogie10w has ancestors of German Prussian origins and Skäpperöd started to lobby that a single sentence about German misdeeds in Warsaw would introduce the 'collective guilt' concept!?!). Even so Woogie10w, unlike Skäpperöd, still thinks the destruction of Warsaw should be mentioned in the article but just suggests the sentence be rephrased. It's pretty clear that Skäpperöd isn't presenting a truthful picture of what was going on on that talk page. Loosmark (talk) 17:57, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments: I find Sandstein's comment bellow that I made "long and rambling statement" offending. I had to explain the situation under which the events happened and since he also doesn't seem to understand my "line of defense".. It is important to understand under which circustances were reverts being made, who started edit warring, who was being dishonest in the discussion etc. But ok if you want me to be more specific, lets look at Skaperod's actions on the Expulsion of Germans after World War II page:

23 June 2009 [104] Skaperod shows his anti-Polish feelings by stating that there is no Polish view, great start!

23 June 2009 [105] Skaperod first notices the sentence he doesn't like and asks for discussion

no consensus is reached in fact he seems to be the only one with a problem for that sentence, frustrated by that he makes a "proposal" which i objected around 8 hours later (i mention that becaused he lied here that it went unobjected for 2 days) [106]

27 June 2009 [107] Skaperod removes the sentence with describtion "per talk", per talk what there was no support for his idea and i explicitly opposed

27 June 2009 [108] Skaperod again removes the sentence and again lies that the proposal was unobjected

27 June 2009 [109] Skaperod is getting a bit too close to 3RR so now user Elysander appears, he has never edited that page before, nor participated in the talk page yet only 1h after Skaperod's last revert, he makes the same removal of the sentence which Skaperod so much dislikes.

27 June 2009 [110] Elysander makes the same revert once again

We should all asume good faith and believe that Elysander by some cosmic coincidence found that page in the exact moment Skaperod needed it the most. But down there if you are honest to yourself you all know what was going on there so 2+2=4 for the tag-team Skaperod, and who was breaking the rules here? Loosmark (talk) 01:21, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on AdjustShift's action described in the results section: Seems to me that all editors involved in the dispute on the Expulsion of Germans after World War II page acted responsibly and refrained themselves from making any edits from 27th June. Therefore by protecting the page on 1st July AdjustShift seems to be kicking a dead horse. Loosmark (talk) 16:45, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by other editors

Please amend your request to specify the specific sanction or remedy that you believe this user violated, and/or the remedy under whose authority you request sanctions. Sandstein 17:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I’m actually very disappointed finding this complaint here this morning. I really thought that the content dispute/discussion between Polish/Jewish and German editors on the above pages are quite successful and are heading the right direction. Now I see that one user is trying to force his POV by filing this request to see what happens. Maybe somebody will be sanctioned? What exactly was violated here other that lack of agreement, which in my opinion was not that far away. Tragic Polish WW2 history is quite well known to many but what is happening here is that editors are being introduced to the German POV of the same history, which radically collides with the Polish/Allied version, widely accepted long time ago. This is not a place to discuss history and problems of the mentioned articles of course but in my opinion neutral editor interested in the WW2 history should join the conversation on the related talk pages. These editors should be contacted instead of filing this ridiculous complaint. Sorry Skäpperöd for this criticism this is just my honest opinion. Hope we will remain "Wiki-friends".--Jacurek (talk) 19:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The problem here is that Wikipedia is supposed to be a neutral encyclopedia, without any kind of a prevalent POV. User Skapperod,the one who initiated this arbitration, has been pushing his POV for a long time, also flooding the project with German-language sources, which are difficult to check. In my opinion, in controversial articles, such as Polish Corridor, English language sources should be preferred, and I think all admins and editors will agree with me. Wikipedia based on German sources only, with one editor basically owning, or trying to own, several articles, is, and will never be, reliable. Skapperod gets very upset when somebody dares to add things that do not follow his POV. In response, he uses a sly tactics of making some 10, aven 20 little changes to an article, to avoid charges of edit-warring. Loosmark has had the misfortune to stand on his way, therefore Skapperod decided to get rid of him. Tymek (talk) 18:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of sly tactics, or rather Salami tactics: I had suggested to Jacurek to change his editing style. When looking at the recent edits to Polish Corridor, I see Skäpperöd and HerkusMonte making three edits in a row each, compared to four of Jacurek and even five by Radeksz. Thus, Tymek, you are barking up the wrong tree. And in the category "some 10, even 20 little changes to an article", I guess your contribs[111] to 1938 in Poland are hard to match. Also, "with one editor basically owning" said article, one can learn there that the Free City of Danzig was part of Poland in 1938, and apparently, Rome, Berlin, London, too. -- Matthead Discuß 20:06, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am a sole contributor to the 1938 in Poland article, it is based on analysing contents of Polish newspapers of that year, one by one, day by day, which is very time-consuming, therefore you have provided a wrong example here. Could you be more specific and tell what you mean by Rome or Berlin being part of Poland? Please answer on my talk page, as this is not related to the discussion. Thank you in advance. Tymek (talk) 20:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Attention, everyone. The comments left in this section so far are entirely unproductive. Please limit your comments here to what you believe is absolutely necessary to evaluate the specific merits of this request. I will topic-ban anyone from WP:AE who continues with bickering of this sort after this warning. Thank you. Sandstein 21:35, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think there is some mild edit warring here; the kind that usually gets one a reprimand to not do it the future, especially for an editor with a clean block log. Furthermore, Loosemark also simultaneously engaged in a LOT of discussion with numerous editors, unlike Skapperod, and as Jacurek pointed out there was a gradual convergence to a consensus emerging on talk, now disrupted by this request. Also, there is just as much edit warring on these articles from User:HerkusMonte so the behavior of the two users should be considered together.radek (talk) 22:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion it is very necessary to mention what I have to say now, therefore I am doing this. By banning one editor who was involved in discussion/dispute of the above pages, you will only open door to the POV of the editor who is not sanctioned. Either everybody has to stay away from these pages for a while or everybody is allowed to continue to discuss and edit. I am sorry but banning one side only will be counterproductive to the development of these pages resulting with one sided view and highly POV article. --Jacurek (talk) 23:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by involved editor moved from section below

Personally I'd stick with a warning (which I just issued), since evidence of edit warring is sparse and recent. No need to penalize somebody when a warning may suffice. If edit warring continues, slap 1RR. Topic ban would be unproductive, as the editors seem to create content. Oh, and let's not forget that it takes two to tango... who was Loosmark edit warring with? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:01, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Piotrus, I believe that you have been involved in arbitration and other disputes with respect to Poland-related issues, so I think it would be more appropriate if you would move your comment to the section above. As to your question, he was warring with a different editor in either case. Had it been the same editor, sanctions against them might have been considered here also, but in general I prefer to deal wich each editor's conduct individually. All are free to make sanctions requests against the co-warriors if they believe sanctions are merited. Sandstein 22:15, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

With all due respect, the arbitration has not found my judgement in those issues to be biased. Loosmark is not Polish; I rarely interact with him and I rarely edit the articles mentioned here. Really, I am getting tired of the "you are from EE so you are biased by default" argumentation here. In any case, please note I am not about to take any action like closing or sanctioning - but I do believe myself to be uninvolved enough to comment here. In any case, I've said all I wanted to :) I trust you'll do the right thing, as you usually tend to :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:55, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Request for clarification by Skäpperöd

Is this coment in the right place? If not, please move. In response to Thatchers comment, I ask for a clarification on the warning/listing issue:

I understood that the remedies of the Piotrus2/EE case do not require a warning,
I understood that the so-called "Digwuren list" is outdated, and that the warning required by Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Discretionary sanctions is not bound to be in a special format but just should ensure the user is aware of the case. I think for a user involved in several AE threads concerning this case, if only as a commentator, it can be assumed that this awareness is given.
I think I have adhered to the principles of wikipedia in my editing conduct, and would like Thatcher to give me a feedback where this was not the case. In my understanding, the removal of an unsourced statement without prior discussion is justified if one has reason to believe that it does not comply with the core policies and neither is benefitial for the article, and if one states these reasons in his edit summary. I did so twice in a period of two days, and did not repeat this a third time when this was reverted but tagged it and started a discussion. I understand that this was a courtesy, and that I would have been justified in removing this statement again if I had chosen to do so. I understand that any editor chosing to re-instate a disputed unsourced statement should at least utilize sources supporting the accuracy and relevancy of the statement, and that the discussion should focus on the evaluation of such sources. I understand that in the discussion, I did everything right by not participating in discussions not concerned with the statement, ignoring provocative statements, only focus on the issue, and make alternative proposals I feel everyone could accept. I also think I was right in exchanging the disputed statement for the proposed change when the proposal was not commented on for two days despite ongoing discussion not related to the line. That said,I really would appreciate it if my above question in the section "Additional comments by Skäpperöd" ("give some advise how to deal with situations like that") would not be left unanswered, and that it is pointed out which of my actions/understandings are supported and which are objected to. With a warning, as proposed by Thatcher, I can't do anything useful. I am aware of the cases, I do not need to be warned. I need a decision on what actions detailed in "Additional comments by Skäpperöd" are valid in respect to the policies and remedies and which are not. Skäpperöd (talk) 06:24, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are no remedies in Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus_2 enforceable against other editors. There are specific sanctions against specific editors, and some general words of wisdom that are not enforceable. For example, "Editors who find it difficult to edit a particular article or topic from a neutral point of view and adhere to other Wikipedia policies are counseled that they may sometimes need or wish to step away temporarily from that article or subject area" is good advice, but there is no provision that allows admins to require editors to take a break from a specific topic or article. Thatcher 00:47, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Loosmark's evidence by Skäpperöd

Loosmark has accused me of having an anti-Polish POV, and provided this diff [112] as evidence. I must strongly object. I do not even believe that there is a German/ Polish/whatever POV, nations don't have a POV. There are only POVs of disagreeing editors, which do not matter for the content but may make consensus and civility difficult to establish, and there are POVs of disagreeing RS, which matter for the content according to WP:NPOV/UNDUE. That's it. You can take this as response to the "German POV" comments above too, to which I cannot respond further because they are not backed up. The diff shown by Loosmark also shows no more than that I edit in this spirit, by changing "Polish view" into "this view" in regard to the preceeding line in the article which already says "especially in Poland". Ethnic generalization must not happen. Skäpperöd (talk) 06:24, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If there are only POVs of disagreeing editors then explain how it is that always when there are delicate disputes about some historical event connected to countries X and Y, all the editors from X are on one side and the editors from Y are on the other side? I'd say exactly the opposite from what you say is true, a POV connected to the nation of origin of an editor is almost always present, if not for anything else, then because the educational system through which a person passes looks at different historical events from a national-centered perspective. The trick is to be aware of your own national POV and try to at least to understand the POV of the other editors. I'd even go as far to say that the denial of one's national POV is the worst kind of POV. Then we have things like the controversial title "establishment of the corridor" on the Polish corridor page being described by you as "without doubt very neutral title". Maybe in Germany. In Poland the corridor is viewed, as pl wikipedia puts it, "wytwór niemieckiej nomenklatury lat 20. XX. wieku", used mainly to try to grab an area which was rightfully Polish. And considering everything that happened it's a POV at least as valid as any other. Loosmark (talk) 07:01, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Loosmark

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Comment for other admins: The diffs provided as evidence under [1] and [2] are indicative of edit-warring. Loosmark's long and rambling statement does not help his case at all, because it does not address his own conduct that is the subject of this request (except by trying to defend his edit warring with the argument of being right, which, as we know, is not a good excuse for edit-warring). I am about to impose a revert restriction or topic ban with respect to subjects related to Poland and Germany. What do you think? Sandstein 21:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are no actionable remedies under RFAR/Piotrus. At RFAR/Digwuren, users must be notified of the existence of the case and the possibility of further sanctions, with the notification logged, prior to imposing any sanctions. Based on this report, there is certainly grounds to notice in and caution several editors, to wit: Skäpperöd (talk · contribs), Loosmark (talk · contribs), Elysander (talk · contribs), and Jacurek (talk · contribs). Matthead is already noticed, and Radeksz was placed on 1RR on 24 June for a different AE report. Probably not Tymek, as he was not part of the edit dispute enumerated by Skopperod. Editors are strongly cautioned that when an obvious dispute arises in the article content, to stop editing that section, and discuss the dispute on the talk page, without repeated reversions to one or another favored wording. Reversions without talk page discussion is very bad, but reversions while talk page discussion is going on is also bad, because it is a sign of disrespect and a signal that the reverting editor cares more about his or her favored wording than about consensus and discussion. Thatcher 01:00, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

- I've protected Expulsion of Germans after World War II for one day in order to prevent the edit war. Editors should discuss the issue on the talk page, and try to reach a consensus. AdjustShift (talk) 08:12, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The edit war on June 27 was massive; multiple editors were edit warring. See [113][114][115][116][117][118][119]. I feared that the editors would continue from where they left off on June 27. AdjustShift (talk) 17:01, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, final result is that Skäpperöd (talk · contribs), Loosmark (talk · contribs), Elysander (talk · contribs), and Jacurek (talk · contribs) are placed on formal notice about the Digwuren case and advised that continued edit warring may result in editing restrictions such as article bans, topic bans, and revert limits, followed by blocks for enforcement. Editors are cautioned that the purpose of Wikipedia is to write an encyclopedia that approaches its subjects from a neutral point of view. While it is possible for editors with strongly held opposing viewpoints to collaborate and produce neutral articles, it is extremely difficult, and requires editors to be patient, flexible, respectful of their fellow editors, and willing to negotiate and compromise. Editors are further cautioned that when a change to an article becomes contentious, such as through a few early reverts or a strong objection on the talk page, they should stop reverting and discuss on the talk page until a compromise or consensus is reached. Use the content dispute resolution mechanisms including content request for comment, request for third opinion, mediation, or the content noticeboard. Reverting without discussion is very bad. Reverting during discussion is almost as bad, as it shows disrespect to the editors participating in the discussion. Thatcher 11:14, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

@@ Line 411: / Line 411: @@
 **I've protected [[Expulsion of Germans after World War II]] for one day in order to prevent the edit war. Editors should discuss the issue on the talk page, and try to reach a consensus. [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 08:12, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 **The edit war on June 27 was massive; multiple editors were edit warring. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=298911669&oldid=298910998][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=298918767&oldid=298911669][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=298922501&oldid=298918767][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=298925160&oldid=298922501][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=298929312&oldid=298925160][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=298936597&oldid=298929312][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II&diff=298993434&oldid=298936597]. I feared that the editors would continue from where they left off on June 27. [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 17:01, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
+*OK, final result is that  {{user|Skäpperöd}}, {{user|Loosmark}}, {{user|Elysander}}, and {{user|Jacurek}} are placed on formal notice about the Digwuren case and advised that continued edit warring may result in editing restrictions such as article bans, topic bans, and revert limits, followed by blocks for enforcement.  Editors are cautioned that the purpose of Wikipedia is to write an encyclopedia that approaches its subjects from a neutral point of view.  While it is ''possible'' for editors with strongly held opposing viewpoints to collaborate and produce neutral articles, it is extremely difficult, and requires editors to be patient, flexible, respectful of their fellow editors, and willing to negotiate and compromise.  Editors are further cautioned that when a change to an article becomes contentious, such as through a few early reverts or a strong objection on the talk page, they should '''stop reverting''' and discuss on the talk page until a compromise or consensus is reached.  Use the content dispute resolution mechanisms including content [[WP:RFC|request for comment]], [[WP:3O|request for third opinion]], [[WP:MEDCOM|mediation]], or the [[WP:CNB|content noticeboard]].  Reverting without discussion is very bad.  Reverting during discussion is almost as bad, as it shows disrespect to the editors participating in the discussion. [[User talk:Thatcher|Thatcher]] 11:14, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
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