Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Universal Medicine

Universal Medicine

Universal Medicine (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Subjective and critical content Q.leroy (talk) 12:21, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

-Q.leroy's WP activity and possible bad faith WP:Disruptive request that this article be deleted seems odd. Perhaps Q.leroy's own WP page Lendico is a better candidate for deletion as it seems just an advertorial. As requested by others Q.leroy needs to expand upon her/his reasons for doing so. RevTim0 (talk) 20:24, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

• Strong Keep: per significant coverage in numerous reliable sources. Subject of the article meets WP:GNG. 79616gr (talk) 12:49, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
• Keep per 79616gr, the article has significant coverage, so meets general notability. LADY LOTUS • TALK 13:22, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
• Keep Easily meets notability guidelines. However the tone seems over-critical to someone who knows nothing about the organistion (not really sure why there is a "criticism" section as the whole article seems pretty critical to me). There seems to have been a lot of toing and froing on the TP with a lot of heated POV discussion between supporters and detractors of the organisation. A much more neutral approach to this subject is needed IMO. Harry the Dog WOOF 14:31, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
• Keep - The article needs major improvements no denying that but I'm not really seeing anything worth deleting so I'll have to say Keep. –Davey2010^Talk 15:09, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions.  ^B E _C K ^Y _S A ^{Y L} E _S  16:38, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions.  ^B E _C K ^Y _S A ^{Y L} E _S  16:38, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

• Strong Keep - Note: This article has had significant oversight from WP senior editors and admins from the start, so this is as balanced as the subject can get using RS. The topic has significant coverage in the media, most of it unflattering, so meets general notability. There is an amount of pressure from subjects of the group who want to include WP:Fringe material or have article deleted. This makes the article more relevant and notable to keep. RevTim0 (talk) 19:54, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Given that there are no reliable sources beyond newspaper articles that themselves contain rumour I consider that deletion of the article should definitely be considered. Add to that the fact that certain editors are hell bent on vandalism in keeping a particular reference in that is off topic and does not mention the subject and can only be wanted to remain in order to seek to paint the subject in a certain light there is a real issue of bias in this article. It has also been impossible to have anything other than negative viewpoints included in the article even when there other material that could be cited. This article will always have controversy.Choose12 (talk) 17:57, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

-Choose12 above has previously declared her/himself as having a conflict of interest as a Universal Medicine member. RevTim0 (talk) 07:40, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

There have been attempts at adding balanced quotes from reliable sources, sometimes from the same sources already cited on the article - but these have been taken down or deemed not part of consenus and therefore not allowed to go up. There has been, what seems like, a continuous question, within many areas, running on the TP - why can't this be added? One editor says yes, another says no - but always the negative content survives any balance to this POV is subverted or taken down. The article will never have a balanced presentation whilst this continues. Notability is about what an organisation has done and is known for - nothing is discussed as to what this organisation has contributed in a positive light at all - it is only deemed notable for that fact that newspapers (a lot of them tabloid) have written negative articles about it. To keep this site up perpetuates a negative attack on a living person and his organisation.Tribscent08 (talk) 19:19, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

• Delete There are two core tenets of Wikipedia that are at play against each other in this article and these are the principles of neutrality and verifiability. One of the key principles of neutrality is to present facts, not opinion, and that the facts are verifiable. The aspect of verifiability is being misused in this article to be able to support the claim of neutrality. The quoted aspects of many (most?) of the citations is someone's opinion, and they are presented in such a way as to appear as referenced facts. However much of what is presented is referenced opinion rather than referenced fact. It is a key WP principle to Indicate the relative prominence of opposing views. Even though there are many supportive opinions of Universal Medicine (see https://www.universalmedicine.com.au/writing-student-body ) they are deemed original research and cannot be cited. The opinions exist and it is fact that these opinions are there, but they are not presented because they have not been reported by a third party. The overall effect of this is to give the impression that there are no positive opinions, which improperly represents the prominence of opposing views. My opinion is that the overall tenor of this article is detrimental to the neutrality principle of wikipedia and principle of verifiability is being misused to support the negative bias to this article.Paniteri (talk) 00:22, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Paniteri above has been a member of WP for 3 days and has made 2 edits. Paniteri are you a follower or supporter of Universal Medicine? RevTim0 (talk) 02:16, 21 January 2015 (UTC) Also Paniteri is purposely misleading by calling facts "opinion". The facts are journalist fact-checked facts from RS that are from reliable newspaper articles. Enough fibbing please. RevTim0 (talk) 07:18, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

• I am a supporter of UM and WP. Please read carefully what I have said. Lets look at this statement: Benhayon "controlled every aspect of our lives". This is someone's observation of what is happening. Surely no one has that power — I doubt anyone would really accept that as fact. But it is someone's opinion, which they are totally entitled to hold. I have no issue with you or anyone having their view on the world. What I am concerned about is that this entry is able to present opinions such as this and because they have been reported in a newspaper article this somehow then elevates them to facts. This results in a biased article and is contrary to the principle of giving appropriate prominence to opposing views. The keeping of the article as it stands would be detrimental the reputation of WP as a reliable source. Paniteri (talk) 11:02, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Paniteri, thank you for confirming you have a problem with a few sentences in the article and lobbying for its deletion. Considering this it seems WP:Disruption is very much in play and thus I also move for WP:SK on this article. RevTim0 (talk) 08:44, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

• Keep Article was started a month ago and is under construction WP:DONOTDEMOLISH. Meets WP:ORG notability and WP:RS reliable sources. There are significant verified and notable facts within the article, including contentious therapeutic claims; singular inclusion in parliamentary report; regulatory action against charity; suppression of government documents; cult consultancy reporting ex followers employing its counselling services; Google search removals; patient complaints; book burning etc. The neutrality principle shouldn't be misused to suppress negative facts, including that such organizations as Universal Medicine are by their nature polarizing, and also actively suppressing criticism and unfavourable information. Positive bias is readily available within UM's copious internet propaganda. XRii (talk) 03:00, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I have concerns this deletion listing is a bad faith nomination and potential vandalism. The nominator has listed "subjective and critical content" as grounds for deletion, which are not WP's accepted criteria. XRii (talk) 03:33, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

• Keep, obviously. The content accurately reflects the numerous reliable independent sources. Being negative in overall tone is a reflection of the fact that the sources are also overwhelmingly critical, and that in turn is a reflection of the generally poor reputation of cults. Guy (Help!) 08:13, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
• Keep, with reservations. The number of single-purpose accounts operating on this article (on both sides) is concerning (by my count, at least five of the above participants have edited no other mainspace article), and there are a few issues with WP:NPOV, but it does appear to meet GNG. Whatever happens it needs close watching. Frickeg (talk) 09:20, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
• Keep, NPOV doesn't mean that we delete any article that is not flattering to the subject. I too am somewhat concerned at the single purpose accounts buzzing around this article like mosquitoes around a lightbulb, but that is not in itself a reason to delete. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 10:20, 21 January 2015 (UTC).

I share XRii concerns that this is a bad faith nomination for delete and ask the editor who initiated this process to expand upon their reasons for doing so. 79616gr (talk) 05:43, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

• Keep, and, per RevTim0's suggestion near the top, Nominate and Delete Lendico. Pax 08:14, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

As Q.leroy has chosen not to expand upon the reasons for nominating this article for deletion I move for WP:SK. The delete nomination is in bad faith and disruptive/vandalism. No uninvolved editor or admin has moved in favor of deleting it, and the consensus is the article should stay but needs work. 79616gr (talk) 03:27, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

• Keep. Notable enough. Nom is suspect. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 09:36, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

• Strong Delete. I nominated this article for its obvious criticism and conflict of interest. The conflict of interest is not positive in that case, as the authors clearly have a strong negative opinion on the entity discussed here: Universal Medicine. I respect opinions and the liberty of expression, nevertheless Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and should not be a place to record opinion and especially of critical nature. Here are the main reasons that pushed me to submit this article for deletion: 1st: The use of tabloid articles in order to present false "facts" => "The religious aspect of the belief system attached to Universal Medicine and its number of dedicated followers has resulted in Universal Medicine being characterised as a cult" => Serge Benhayon have not been charged, arrested, or convicted of any dishonesty offence by any Australia court. Therefore this type of accusation, even when coming from a tabloid, is defamatory and illegal (see Phoenix Global own legal claim to Google: the publishers are liable for civil damage under the Defamation Act 2005 (Qld)). I believe the appropriate word for Universal Medicine practices would be "theosophy" as rightfully used by UK government UK Government during their court decision. 2nd: Half of the references used to build this articles are from three main authors: Jane Hansen, Heath Aston and Kaye Byron. The Universal Medicine WP article has also be written by three main authors: 79616gr, XRii and RevTim0, which are also the main contributors of this deletion discussion. Personally, I do not believe in coincidence. 3nd: The reliability of most sources is doubtful. Can we call tabloid such as the "Australian Daily Telegraph", "Sydney Morning Herald", "The Northern Star Lismore", "Northern Rivers Echo Lismore" or "News.com.au" reliable sources? Moreover, all of these sources are coming from the same location: New South Wales, Australia. Would that be another coincidence? Or would it just be our main tabloid writers (Jane Hansen, Heath Aston and Kaye Byron) using their journalistic influence on their close network? 4th: The overall tone of the article is clearly critical and does not reflect the neutrality needed into an encyclopedia. In comparison, the article written on Adolf Hitler IS truly neutral.

I would normally advocate the modification of this article in order to make it neutral, but the circumstances make it difficult in that case: the overall content need to be revised and we can observe an obvious lobbying being practiced by 79616gr, XRii and RevTim0 making it very difficult to objectively participate in the modification of this article. Finally, I deplore the need for 79616gr to speed up the process of deletion, showing again its high (conflict of) interest in the topic. Q.leroy (talk) 12:22, 23 January 2015 (CET+1)

After more researches on Wikipedia, I realized that JzG, also known in this deletion conversation as Guy, is an administrator and heavy participant of the Universal Medicine article. He is certainly also responsible for the control imposed of the modification of the article: "The Arbitration Committee has permitted Wikipedia administrators to impose discretionary sanctions on any editor editing this page or associated pages". Guy is also responsible for erasing parts of an article I participated in a few month back "Lendico". In the mean time, the profile pages of 79616gr, XRii and RevTim0 disapeared and is no longer available. Are those actions all coincidences? Or is someone using Wikipedia with wrongful intention...? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Q.leroy (talk • contribs) 12:47, 23 January 2015 (UTC)