Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Kelly Martin/original: Difference between revisions

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(Kelly Martin | talk | contributions)

Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who dispute this sysop's conduct. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.

Kelly Martin has abused her sysop powers by deleting userbox template pages out of process and without any discussion at all.

Description

Kelly Martin recently began a wide-scale deletion of many of Wikipedia's userboxes. (See the log under Powers misused below.) These deletions occurred out of process, and the stated reason (on Kelly Martin's talk page) is that "Those templates are crap and should be deleted. No point in wasting TfD's time with them." [1] (That same diff also contains the sentence "Screw process," something ill-befitting someone whose duty is to uphold process on Wikipedia.) She further asserts that the templates should be deleted "per recent comments by Jimbo", though these comments were not linked to, and it should be noted that Jimbo's comments do not make a Wikipedia policy.[2]

Powers misused

Deletion (log and log):

Kelly has deleted far too many pages to list here; however, some examples are provided. See the deletion log (above) for a full list.

Template:User AI (Amnesty International)
Template:User Chinese Traditional Religion (Taoism or Buddhism)
~~Template:User antimonarchist~~ This was deleted by a different admin; my mistake. —BorgHunter (talk) 03:57, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Template:User Christian
Template:User Anti-euro
Template:User GoaPsyTrance (Goa, popular electronic music from India)
Template:User Communist
Template:User Capitalist

It may also be of interest that while she deleted many of the supposedly "crap" userboxes, several very prominent ones were left undeleted. Under Wikipedia:Userboxes/International Politics for example, {{user Chinese reunification}} was deleted with the rationale "states a political or religious affiliation". On the other hand, {{user independent Taiwan}} was not. Since these 2 templates are located close to each other, I don't see how one could have been deleted while the other not, if the reasons are really as she cited. Wikipedia:Userboxes/Location was untouched, where almost every single one of the userboxes show a political affiliation. {{User AmE-0}} was unceremoniously deleted with the cryptic message: "Not." But to be honest, I'm more concerned with her unwillingness to cooperate and her Father/Mother-knows-best attitude. I don't really care what her justifications were, the least she should have done is communicate with the users. There is a Wikipedia:WikiProject Userboxes, and a talkpage is there for a very good reason!

Applicable policies

Deletion policy and criteria for speedy deletion

Wikipedia deletion policy (and CSD) do not cover "use of unfree images," "incivility," or "political content," especially in templates intended for use in the User: namespace only. The templates she deleted were not sent through templates for deletion, and were deleted unilaterally without any attempts to gather consensus or even, originally, explanation as to why all these userboxes were suddenly disappearing. Kelly's "Jimmy Wales made some comments" defense only arose after she was questioned as to why the userboxes were being deleted, and in any case, Jimmy Wales alone does not dictate policy for Wikipedia. (Even if he did, the policy is not yet listed anywhere.)

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

(provide diffs and links)

[3] User:Grue made the original comment asking Kelly to cease. The reply was "Screw process," etc. [4] Grue's response: [5] Kelly's response, which says that "Putting policy over result is wrong": [6]
My comment asking for a reason these had been deleted: [7] A response to User:Dbiv asking for Kelly to follow proper procedure: [8] Kelly's claim that she is enforcing policy: [9] Two responses by User:Miborovsky and myself: [10] [11]
Right here on this RfC: "it's just that I took a break after finishing the C's; don't worry, I'll get to the rest soon enough" - sarcastic, scathing, vitriolic, acrimonious, insolent. When an admin cannot even drop her holier-than-thou attitude when being confronted with an RFC, there is something seriously amiss here.

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

(sign with ~~~~)

—BorgHunter (talk) 22:33, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Grue 22:41, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Miborovsky 22:53, 31 December 2005 (UTC) (My comments in green)[reply]

Other users who endorse this statement

(sign with ~~~~)

Seancdaug 22:39, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Morgan695 22:42, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Mistress Selina Kyle 31 December 2005 (UTC) — WP:RFDA
Sceptr e ^(Talk) 22:47, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 22:47, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Mike Dillon 22:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Oscarthecat 22:51, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Fang Aili 22:53, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
TCorp 23:02, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Synapse 23:09, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
KirbyMeister 23:10, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Eagle (talk) (desk) 23:11, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
rst20xx 23:19, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
dannycas 23:27, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
--Celestianpower ^háblame 23:38, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
– ugen64 23:43, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
--Angr (t·c) 23:45, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
—Locke Cole • t • c 23:52, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
SPUI (talk - don't use sorted stub templates!) 23:58, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Chris 00:00, 1 January 2006 (UTC) - Two of my created userbox templates have been arbitrarily deleted without discussion.[reply]
OneTopJob6 00:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC) - My (since restored) PGC was deleted, PBC was not. See statement for irony.[reply]
Phroziac _. o º^{O (♥♥♥♥ chocolate!)} 00:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Firebug 00:27, 1 January 2006 (UTC) This whole process is a blatant defiance of Wikipedia policy.[reply]
Kurt Weber 00:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC) As Mojo Nixon has suggested to Don Henley, "Don't be afraid of fun; loosen up your ponytail!"[reply]
AnnH ^(talk) 00:32, 1 January 2006 (UTC). However, I'd like to make it clear that I do not in any way endorse the actions of Mistress Selina Kyle.[reply]
Blu Aardvark | ^{(talk) | (contribs)} 00:38, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ian¹³_ID:540053 This is mad, there has been no discussion or cleanup. The threats for future deletions, an her general disrespect make me feel de-adminship is in order.
ALKIVAR™ and people wonder why there were objections to her getting on arbcom and becoming a bureaucrat.
--God_of War 01:25, 1 January 2006 (UTC) - Where is Template:User Anarchist2 I created this yesterday I have seen no notice of tfd.[reply]
Cjmarsicano 01:30, 1 January 2006 (UTC) See also my comments below.[reply]
—Andux 01:33, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Inanechild 01:52, 1 January 2006 (UTC) - Wikipedia should be a community, not a bureaucracy.[reply]
karmafist 01:55, 1 January 2006 (UTC) It's about time. If this is what we can expect of someone on the arbcom, the supposed enforcers of policies and guidelines, then there's little hope for any policy or guideline on Wikipedia, which seems to be the case lately since they all contradict each other or can be so easily circumvented, as evidenced here. karmafist 01:55, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Probert 02:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC) This is an outrage![reply]
mdmanser 03:23, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
K. AKA Konrad West TALK 03:36, 1 January 2006 (UTC) - Actions by admins (which are not reversible by normal Wikipedians) should always be discussed/warned first.[reply]
Utterly innappropriate behavior. Ëvilphoenix ^Burn! 04:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Kelly Marin's arrogant and paternalistic attitude is offensive and terribly inappropriate behavior for an sysop. --¿ WhyBeNormal ? 04:42, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rogue 9 05:26, 1 January 2006 (UTC) Can we just ban all the deletionists already? Regardless, those who revel in the destruction of others' work have no place as admins, and I would argue have no place on a Wiki.[reply]
FREAK OF NUR_xTURE. 05:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Niffweed17 05:58, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Jiang 06:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Terence Ong ^Talk 06:36, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Per Miborovsky, it's odd that the admin deleted Chinese Reunification template without deleting Taiwanese Independence template. These are two sides of the same n-faceted coin. --BenjaminTsai ^Talk 07:35, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
She was going in alphabetical order. That's already been discussed. —BorgHunter (talk) 07:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
SatuSuro 08:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
LBMixPro ^<Sp ^e ^ak|on|it!> 10:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC) - There should be some discussion at a talk page before creating a load of red links to users' talk pages.[reply]
Closedmouth 10:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Lukobe 10:33, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fir e Fox 11:30, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ral315 (talk) 11:44, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
D-Day 12:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC) I find it odd that she would delete Communist templates, when, in theory, her actions are themselves Communistic.[reply]
Red baiting is good, red baiting is great, we surrender our will to Comrade Stalin as of this date! El_C 12:43, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User:Noisy | Talk 13:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ali K 13:15, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Cactus.man ✍ 13:44, 1 January 2006 (UTC) - Disappointing behaviour on what appears to be a unilateral deletion spree. Particularly ironic given Kelly's stated personal policy in relation to the use of Admin powers: "Use talk pages".[reply]
They may waste a little time and space, but it is on *user* time and *user* space and if it makes an editor happy to "show their colours" in this way rather (or inaddition to) in their userpage text, then it is not for one person to decree that they must not do so. Unacceptable behaviour - discuss before delete please! --Vamp:Willow 14:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
_→AzaToth 15:03, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Though I recently gave up adding more userboxes to my page (instead taking a different approach [12]), in all seriousness Kelly's actions were utterly against policy and stunningly arrogant. the wub "?!" 15:52, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Holy crap. —Locke Cole • t • c 16:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is an absolute farce and shouldn't be allowed to stand. Deano (Talk) 16:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Bourbons3^Talk 16:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like far to wide-sweeping an action to be justified with no discussion --Petros471 16:26, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Out of process deeltion is always bad. "Screw the process" is far worse. This ought to be grounds for considering de-sysoping. DES ^(talk) 16:44, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In my own exchanges with Ms. Martin, she has been consistently sarcastic and arrogant. Her attitude is now detrimentally effecting the personal wiki-pages of numerous users. She needs to learn better "playing-in-groups" skills. Xoloz 17:17, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mrs/Miss Martin has repeatedly demonstrated that she regards rules as beneath her. I am extremely concerned that Jimbo thought she was suitable to be an arbitrator, as her behaviour shows her to be woefully inadequate for the task.--Victim of signature fascism 17:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, talk pages exist for a reason. -- ( drini's page ☎ ) 18:12, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Should probably be desysoped for this, absent a full apology—it's wildly unacceptable. Everyking 19:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Back off, Ms Martin. You're about to raise a tsunami of protest from the Great Unwashed. --Peripatetic 20:52, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Response

This is a summary written by the sysop whose actions are disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the sysop's actions did not violate policy. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign.}

The templates I deleted were those that:

contained a non-free or unsourced image (thereby violating the fair use policy);
expressed a political, ideological, or religious opinion (thereby tending to categorize Wikipedians by affiliations not related to Wikipedia, which Jimbo himself has expressed disapproval recently on wikien-l); or
in my opinion, expressed incivil or offensive content.

The templates I deleted (I've only made it through the C's so far, which is why some people feel I am being arbitrary, when it's just that I took a break after finishing the C's; don't worry, I'll get to the rest soon enough) were deleted systematically for being content inappropriate for a user page per the user page policy. There is no reason for Wikipedia to support templates that facilitate editors adding content to their user pages which is inappropriate for placement on a user page.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not LiveJournal. The purpose of user pages is to facilitate writing an encyclopedia. If you want to make cute webpages, get a webhosting account.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

Kelly Martin (talk) 22:52, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Rob Church ^Talk 22:54, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
David | Talk 22:55, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
--NaconKantari 23:01, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Golbez 23:12, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
El_C 23:16, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Ambi 23:16, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Soltak | Talk 23:32, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:44, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Michael Slone 23:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Sarah Ewart 01:32, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
--NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 02:31, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
—Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
—Ilyanep (Talk) 05:33, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Adam Bishop 06:44, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
netkinetic 07:27, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Pavel Vozenilek 13:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ta bu shi da yu 14:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC) we had one user who created some infoboxes about the fact that he ate at Taco Bell. When will the madness stop?! - Ta bu shi da yu 14:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Phil Sandifer 16:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC). I'm also offended that she got an RfC and I didn't. Phil Sandifer 16:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I have rectified that latter omission. See Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Snowspinner 3. Firebug 17:27, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Death to userboxes. — Dan | talk 17:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Monicasdude 18:07, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What do you call 10,000 user boxes at the bottom of the ocean? --Wgfinley 20:58, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Counter response

Like I said, I don't care about your justifications for deleting these templates. What I feel upset at is the lack of communication shown on your part. Your response does not address that at all. Would you mind explaining how your own opinions should be valued more than those of other, normal users? Are you so convinced of your infallibility that you believe it to be unnecessarily to communicate with other users, and especially the group working on the Userbox Wikiproject, before undertaking to unilaterally delete these templates? -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 23:48, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

Miborovsky -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 07:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Eagle (talk) (desk) 23:53, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Chris 00:03, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
SPUI (talk - don't use sorted stub templates!)
—BorgHunter (talk) 00:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fang Aili 00:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC) Endorse because there was such an extreme lack of communication. Over 70 templates were deleted with no warning or discussion.[reply]
Firebug 00:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC) Again, the question isn't whether you think the deletions are wise, but whether it's appropriate for solo admins, without any broader consensus, to just go around deleting anything they want. Suffice to say that I am not at all surprised by Kelly's small but fervent amen chorus, especially User:SlimVirgin, who has also committed similar abusive deletions in the past.[reply]
AnnH ^(talk) 00:33, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ian¹³_ID:540053 00:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
– ugen64 01:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
TCorp 01:23, 1 January 2006 (UTC) - In one verified case the reasoning "non-free image" was given, but the image was clearly free as I had changed it along with another admin according to guidelines. I hope we can revert all her deletes in one go and have a reasonable discussion and vote on what gets deleted and what stays (as wikipedia was intended). It is furthermore not up to you as an individual to decide what Wikipedia the project is to support or not.[reply]
karmafist 01:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Inanechild 01:58, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
—Locke Cole • t • c 02:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
K. AKA Konrad West TALK 03:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Morgan695 03:46, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
¿ WhyBeNormal ? 04:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Niffweed17 05:44, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User:Zoe|^(talk) 05:46, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Terence Ong ^Talk 06:38, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
MSTCrow 08:27, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Lukobe 10:35, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oscarthecat 10:52, 1 January 2006 (UTC) endorse as I don't like this nazi-like attitude[reply]
Ral315 (talk) 11:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
--Celestianpower ^háblame 11:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
D-Day 12:38, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ali K 13:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Cactus.man ✍ 13:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
FREAK OF NUR_xTURE. 13:55, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
_→AzaToth 15:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
the wub "?!" 15:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
rst20xx 15:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mistress Selina Kyle 16:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Petros471 16:33, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
DES ^(talk) 16:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
--Victim of signature fascism 17:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
--CBD _☎ ^✉ 19:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC) Right idea, wrong way to go about it.[reply]
X This user KirbyMeister 19:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC) believes that User:Kelly Martin abuses his/her adminship.[reply]

oooh, that's wicked ;-) --Peripatetic 20:55, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bourbons3^Talk 20:21, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by David

There has been a profusion of Userboxes recently - most of them benign. However, when they get on to expressing purely opinions, they run into the realm of becoming ways of Wikipedians organising by POV. This happens especially when the Templates include a Wikipedian Category, as most of the deleted ones seem to have. I've no problem with stating facts about a user's background on a userpage (and you may note my own user page has a statement of fact about my political membership), but that is fundamentally different because it does not necessarily tell you where I will stand on an issue. This is becoming an area in which people have just signed up to display their opinions. If not checked now, the day will soon come when there's an easy way to organise a swamping of an AfD debate, or even worse, an RfA. Kelly Martin has acted to stop this profusion.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

David | Talk 22:54, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Rob Church ^Talk 22:55, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Zach ^{(Smack Back)} 23:27, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Soltak | Talk 23:32, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 23:41, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with David's view; reserve judgement on Kelly's actions. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 01:42, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
—Ilyanep (Talk) 05:36, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Terence Ong ^Talk 06:38, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Opposing View

Deletion vote group swamping already happens, regardless as something as benign as userboxes, a perfect example can be found recently at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Catholic Alliance of wikipedia. However, in many cases, like that one where one of the Catholic Alliance members contacted many users with similiar views to vote on saving it. However, despite this there was a backlash against not only the blantantly POV premise of the project, but also among the large scale attempt to group swamp the vote, eventually bringing dozens of delete votes as well as multiple vote closures(some of them even a bit too early) by Tony Sidaway (talk · contribs).

Not even Jimbo can stop this, people acting in groups is human nature. Censoring or stifling the opinions of those with similiar views does nothing but send them underground, an outcome that i'm surprised so many above find acceptable, since I find it contrary to Wikipedia's very essence. karmafist 02:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC) Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):[reply]

karmafist 02:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Seancdaug 02:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rogue 9 05:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
MSTCrow 08:27, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
D-Day 12:40, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
rst20xx 15:51, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
TCorp 17:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC) It is human nature that drives this project in the first place and if I may paraphrase the above, forming groups is human. There are some bots functioning on this site, but most Wikipedians are indeed human. Yes, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, but it is written by Wikipedians, a community of humans. There are groups and legions in all communities and they are not necessarily a threat that need to be crushed by an individual admin on a self appointed mission.[reply]
Mistress Selina Kyle 16:12, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
:) This user KirbyMeister 19:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC) believes that forming groups is human and subsequently agrees with this view.[reply]

Additional observation by Rob Church

It's been stated above that, "Kelly has a duty to uphold process." Incorrect. The process is a means to an end. That end is writing a factually accurate, free-content encyclopedia which covers all points of view on an issue. No-one has a duty to uphold process where that process conflicts with our core goals.

Users endorsing this summary (sign with ~~~~)

Rob Church ^Talk 22:58, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
David | Talk 23:00, 31 December 2005 (UTC) (This is just a rephrasing of WP:IAR!)[reply]
--NaconKantari 23:15, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Ambi 23:17, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Soltak | Talk 23:33, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
—Kirill Lokshin 23:53, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
However, whether it's always wise to IAR is another matter. grm_wnr Esc 00:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Phroziac _. o º^{O (♥♥♥♥ chocolate!)} 00:25, 1 January 2006 (UTC) - Agree with grm_wnr.[reply]
Firebug 00:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC) WP:IAR only makes sense when it's equally easy for other members of the community to act to reverse the actions in question. When combined with admin powers, it's a recipe for abuse.[reply]
Sarah Ewart 01:35, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this wholeheartedly, even though I think deleting all the templates out of hand was an exceptionally dumb thing to do, and that she should have known it would result in this sort of shitstorm. —Cryptic (talk) 02:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
—Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
—Ilyanep (Talk) 05:36, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User:Zoe|^(talk) 05:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
See Cryptic's comment.--Sean|Black 08:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I absolutely agree with this, and agree with Kelly's wish to delete them. However, I also agree with Cryptic — she should have seen this coming. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 14:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
FrancisTyers 16:23, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Opposing View

When one makes such a wide-reaching unilateral action, another simply makes a counter-unilateral action, eventually culminating in... well... this. In all our posturing about duty and process and creating an encyclopedia, we should not lose sight of the simple fact that we are a community, and that no one person is singularly endowed with the right to choose how we pursue our goals.

Clockwork Soul 17:00, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
--Victim of signature fascism 17:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
karmafist 17:58, 1 January 2006 (UTC) I have no clue how a userbox conflicts with any goals here. Wikipedia is not just an encyclopedia, it's a community of people building an encyclopedia.[reply]
Mistress Selina Kyle 18:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Blu Aardvark | ^{(talk) | (contribs)} 20:57, 1 January 2006 (UTC) It may be true that the process is only a means to an end, but these templates do not "interfere with our core goals", so the argument is moot.[reply]

Additional observation by Seancdaug

~~Mr. Church~~ has argued that Ms. Martin's actions are justified in that they serve the ends of producing an accurate encyclopedia. Leaving aside the philosophical concerns of adopting such a blatant "the ends justify the means" argument, Ms. Martin's actions have illustrate a blithe indifference to opposing points of view, and her stated intention to continue her actions regardless of the stated concerns of muliple editors indicates a worrisome disregard for Wikiquette and rules of engagement. Wikipedia operates as a community, and it is incumbent upon anyone who contributes to abide by community consensus and to work within established channels for decision making. ~~Mr. Church~~ argues that the templates deleted by Ms. Martin "conflict with our core goals." It should go without saying that there are many editors here who disagree with that statement, and that a similar case could be made to justify the actions of any number of vandals who would try to sculpt Wikipedia in their own image, without regard to the consensus of the community.

Users endorsing this summary (sign with ~~~~)

Seancdaug 23:15, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Miborovsky -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 23:25, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Synapse 23:27, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Angr (t·c) 23:45, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Eagle (talk) (desk) 23:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Chris 00:07, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
AnnH ^(talk) 00:42, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rogue 9 05:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
MSTCrow 08:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
LBMixPro ^<Sp ^e ^ak|on|it!> 10:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User:Noisy | Talk 13:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Writers' rules of engagement is also one of the Five Pillars cited by Rob Church. the wub "?!" 15:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
rst20xx 15:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mistress Selina Kyle 16:12, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Xoloz 17:20, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Blu Aardvark | ^{(talk) | (contribs)} 20:58, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You what?

Please re-read what I wrote above carefully. At what point do I

Attempt to "justify the actions of Ms. Martin" in any way?
"...argue that the templates deleted by Ms. Martin conflict with our core goals"

You'll find, I think, I did no such thing. I merely pointed out how dangerous it is to get bogged down in "process" when said "process" is often more of a hindrance than a help. Rob Church ^Talk 23:41, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Your comment was obviously in favour of Kelly Martin's actions and part of your statement was "No-one has a duty to uphold process where that process conflicts with our core goals." 2+2=??? -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 23:44, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but I should not have referred to Mr. Church personally, particularly as it fails to add anything to my argument. My observation is simply that under these circumstances I cannot accept that Ms. Martin's actions are justifiable. I apologize, Mr. Church, for any perceived slight against you person. That was not my intention. – Seancdaug 23:48, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a problem. It's a dispute. Things get elevated. People don't always think clearly - lord knows I've messed up quite considerably as of late. I was merely confused. Rob Church ^Talk 00:00, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Fubar Obfusco

There is some practical encyclopedia-writing use to allowing editors to categorize themselves by their religious or political views: it's a way of stating that they know something about the views in question. If I want to know what Communists or Christians think on a subject, or what sort of sources are good to consult for those views, then asking a Communist or a Christian seems a reasonable way to go about it.

That goal could probably be better served by something more similar to the language fluency boxes, though: allowing people to rank their knowledge of a viewpoint rather than their adhesion to same. It's completely possible to be very well-versed in Christian beliefs and traditions without professing them, for instance: consider the case of a learnéd theologian who loses his faith and deconverts; he doesn't lose his knowledge of Christianity's history and doctrines thereby. Likewise, Alexander Solzhenitsyn might know more about Communism than the rank-and-file party member.

The real danger here is the creation of groups which seek to bias Wikipedia in an organized fashion. That was the reason that WikiProject Wikipedians for Decency was so roundly opposed: it was an organized campaign for the purpose of biasing articles against certain topics and views, specifically sex-positive ones. I think we had an anti-abortion crew attempt to organize here as well recently, with similar results. The use of Wikipedia itself as a place to organize biased editing is precisely contrary to the project goal of NPOV.

Moreover, Wikipedia has a vested interest in preventing the formation of any more "voting blocs" -- groups of people who do not discuss contentious issues, but rather simply show up en masse to shout down their "opponents" and declare themselves a majority. The best-known example of this sort of behavior have been groups of self-styled "inclusionists" and "deletionists" who have posted alerts to one another when a discussion on AfD is not going their way. This sort of behavior -- "voting" en bloc rather than contributing to a discussion and the formation of consensus -- hurts the project.

Was it an OK thing to delete these templates? I'm not sure. It depends on how the templates are used. A tool being used to damage Wikipedia needs to be destroyed, but a tool being used to find knowledgeable people needs to be preserved.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

FOo 23:16, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
--NaconKantari 23:17, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Seancdaug 23:21, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Grue 23:25, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Cryptic (talk) 23:57, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
MarkSweep (call me collect) 01:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
--Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 01:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
My main motivation behind creating the Pagan userbox and corresponding category was as an attempt to locate people who could help to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Neopaganism. AdelaMae ^{(talk - contribs)} 03:26, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Niffweed17 05:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Request for clarification

I fully agree with the preceding outside view. I am unaware, however, of any of the aforementioned templates being used in such a way as to organize such groups or blocs, and I, for one, never viewed them in any such way. If this has indeed been occurring, however, I would have to reconsider my thoughts on the issue. Does anyone have any examples of such organization taking place, either because of these userboxes, or of situations where such boxes are being created in conjunction with the formation of such blocs? – Seancdaug 23:26, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Whether we like it or not voting blocs do exist on Wikipedia. Regional noticeboards are some of the most prolific spawning pools of such blocs. People from the same country would always help each other out, no? This is especially true of sensitive nationalist subjects such as border disputes. So it's simply pointless to argue that userboxes promote divisions and encourage voting blocs, when such already exist and are easily accessible. -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 23:38, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If voting bloc politics are causing unnecessary division among certain geographic identities, then those should be addressed specifically. I don't see how my labelling myself "Catholic Evangelical" (a rather ecumenical label, btw) or "Christian Democrat" would cause division. I think it is kind of cool to be able to find others to talk to about Christian Democracy. CD is something that is new to me. I find the "Wikipedian" categories to be helpful. -- Chris 00:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see no reason that the standard WP:TFD procedure cannot handle userboxes that are perceived to threaten the project's NPOV or be disruptive. There is a great deal of dispute about whether these boxes fall into that category and Kelly's action was a slap in the face to Wikipedia's editors. Firebug 01:20, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Kirill Lokshin

Without necessarily taking a stance on whether these templates should exist—Jimbo obviously makes a valid point about their less-than-positive effects—I feel that Kelly Martin's summary deletion of dozens of them indicates a certain lack of respect towards her fellow Wikipedians. It would have been considerate, if not to actually discuss whether the templates should be deleted, at least to notify us that they would be; and to merely remove fair-use images from templates rather than deleting them, in cases where that was the only concern.

After all, we have always made some allowances towards material kept in user-space by upstanding members of the community—even if this material would ordinarily be deleted on sight.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

—Kirill Lokshin 23:52, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Aye. Miborovsky -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 23:54, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Very well put. – Seancdaug 23:55, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
A TfD would have been nice. Aecis ^{Mr. Mojo} ^risin' 23:57, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Behind this statement 100%Eagle (talk) (desk) 00:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
—BorgHunter (talk) 00:08, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
AnnH ^(talk) 00:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fang Aili 00:26, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Chris 00:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Firebug 00:31, 1 January 2006 (UTC) We have a process for this - namely, WP:TFD. What's the point of this if admins simply go around deleting out of process whenever they want.[reply]
Synapse 00:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
– ugen64 01:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ëvilphoenix ^Burn! 02:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rogue 9 05:33, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Niffweed17 05:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Jiang 06:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Terence Ong ^Talk 06:40, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
MSTCrow 08:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Lukobe 10:38, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. It's not the intent, it's the way it was handled. Ral315 (talk) 11:46, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
--Celestianpower ^háblame 12:03, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Cactus.man ✍ 13:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
the wub "?!" 15:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
rst20xx 15:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 16:03, 1 January 2006 (UTC) Good point.[reply]
Mistress Selina Kyle 16:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sceptr e ^(Talk) 17:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Xoloz 17:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC) Ms. Martin needs to learn to play well with others.[reply]
Mark ¹ 17:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Babajobu 18:01, 1 January 2006 (UTC) Yeah.[reply]
Nandesuka 19:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC) I hate userboxes, and think they are painfully stupid. That's no reason to be high-handed in their deletion.[reply]
Blu Aardvark | ^{(talk) | (contribs)} 20:59, 1 January 2006 (UTC) I agree, more or less, with Nandesuka. --Blu Aardvark | ^{(talk) | (contribs)} 20:59, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by grm_wnr

While I think Kelly's heart is in the right place here, I do not think she had to take such a needlessly confrontational approach, and would like to remind her that seriously annoying a sizable part of the community isn't helping to make a better encyclopedia either - especially since it is well known that admin unilateralism in deletion matters has a near 100% chance of causing a major controversy. -- grm_wnr Esc 23:59, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

Seancdaug 00:00, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly my thoughts --Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 00:01, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
SPUI (talk - don't use sorted stub templates!) 00:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
—BorgHunter (talk) 00:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Cryptic (talk) 00:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Phroziac _. o º^{O (♥♥♥♥ chocolate!)} 00:12, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Aecis ^{Mr. Mojo} ^risin' 00:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fang Aili 00:26, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Chris 00:32, 1 January 2006 (UTC) -- agree, except I don't know her heart.[reply]
– ugen64 01:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
—Locke Cole • t • c 01:46, 1 January 2006 (UTC) as per Chris, and there were better ways to go about this than this clear violation of WP:POINT[reply]
Sarah Ewart 03:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you.--Sean|Black 06:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Terence Ong ^Talk 06:40, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Lukobe 10:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. Ral315 (talk) 11:46, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
--Celestianpower ^háblame 12:03, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Vamp:Willow 14:30, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Are you reading my mind? the wub "?!" 15:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
-- ( drini's page ☎ ) 18:20, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Blu Aardvark | ^{(talk) | (contribs)} 21:00, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by SPUI

As per Wikipedia:User page (and the ever-present common sense), editors are offered wide latitude with their user space. "A good start is to add... information about your areas of expertise and interest, likes and dislikes, other homepages, and so forth." These userboxes are simply another way of showing that. Other that the fair use issue, the issues Kelly brings up are all subjective, which is why we have process - to come to consensus. And the fair use issue is easy enough to {{sofixit}} without deletion.

That is not really the core issue though - Kelly has taken it upon herself to abuse her administrator powers and delete these templates. Then, when someone was bold enough to complain, she threatened an RFC. The proliferation of these user boxes (I've even made a bunch of fake ones for my user page) should be enough evidence that this deletion would not be seen as good by all. It might even be a WP:POINT violation - disrupting people's user pages to make a point about how there are supposedly too many userboxes. It's not clear that disrupting user pages would qualify as disrupting the encyclopedia, but it has the same ring to it. (Though many are arguing that another user space-only action is a clear POINT violation on the talk page of this RFC.)

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

SPUI (talk - don't use sorted stub templates!) 23:56, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Seancdaug 00:01, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Kelly's action shows no respect for the Wiki community.Eagle (talk) (desk) 00:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yet more exacerbating evidence of Ms Martin's lack of proper etiquette. Miborovsky -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 00:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Firebug 00:32, 1 January 2006 (UTC) If Kelly Martin doesn't show contrition, a de-adminship is in order.[reply]
Chris 00:36, 1 January 2006 (UTC) -- VERY WELL SAID[reply]
TCorp 00:46, 1 January 2006 (UTC) Total lack of foresight and respect for the other wikipedians[reply]
Ian¹³_ID:540053 00:46, 1 January 2006 (UTC) - Should be ashamed, didn;t even cleanup the red links. De-adminship should most certainly not be out of the question.[reply]
--Cjmarsicano 01:20, 1 January 2006 (UTC) Ms. Martin should be ashamed of herself for her blatant abuse of power.[reply]
karmafist 02:17, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
—Locke Cole • t • c 02:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
FREAK OF NUR_xTURE. 05:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Rogue 9 06:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Lukobe 10:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not a POINT, but I believe in the general intent of this statement. Ral315 (talk) 11:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User:Noisy | Talk 13:23, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Cactus.man ✍ 13:51, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
_→AzaToth 15:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
rst20xx 16:01, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mistress Selina Kyle 16:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC) — WP:RFDA[reply]
DES ^(talk) 16:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Blu Aardvark | ^{(talk) | (contribs)} 21:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Users who do not endorse this summary

I don't see a WP:POINT here, she explained why she deleted does templates. --Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 00:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- It is certainly possible to explain one's self while still violating WP:POINT. And User:SPUI does not argue that WP:POINT has been violated, in any case: he simply recognizes that such a case could be made, and that it is already being made elsewhere by other people. – Seancdaug 00:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not really a WP:POINT. She didn't disrupt anything remotely useful to the project. But, unilateral out-of-process action should only be done when no-one in their right mind would disagree with the action. --Phroziac _. o º^{O (♥♥♥♥ chocolate!)} 00:15, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The claim that Kelly Martin's actions violated WP:POINT rests on the theory that she is against userbox proliferation. There is absolutely no evidence for this. She is against userboxes which serve to link users by their POV. David | Talk 00:32, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- "Those templates are crap and should be deleted. No point in wasting TfD's time with them." [13] -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 00:57, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User:Zoe|^(talk) 05:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
LBMixPro ^<Sp ^e ^ak|on|it!> 10:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So those who eat at Taco Bell need an infobox? I don't think so. - Ta bu shi da yu 14:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Aranda56

I don't see a violation of WP:POINT here. Kelly Martin explained her actions why those user boxes were deleted. Were some of them wrongfully deleted, yes but she still explained them. Under wikipedia rules, user boxes can't have fair use images and was deleted without a problem. But the religious userboxes should have had a TFD first, or a community disscution in which she ignored. If she deleted them with out a edit summarry, then it's WP:POINT, but she explained her actions and a RFC is not nessarry. In other words, she did wrong but I don't see any WP:POINT violations.

Creating another view. --Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 19:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

--Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 00:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Users who do not endorse this summary

The improper use of copyrighted images is a strong case for removing that image, not for deleting the entire template. – Seancdaug 00:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just because she explained her actions does not mean that a RfC is unwarranted. As you admitted, she did wrongfully delete some templates. —BorgHunter (talk) 00:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just have the rfc then, don't "threaten" it in an attempt to intimidate others to see things your way due to your influential position. I've been in an endless revert war with a slew of editors acting out of fear rather than any real world legal reasoning in regards to user space fair use images, and despite continued pleas with them to give me a reason why this occurs, the strongest reason i've heard so far in favor of the no fair use on user page policy is "because that's the way it's always been." karmafist 02:15, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, hell yes. There is absolutely no real reason why fair use images can't be on user space; the only reason I've been given when I've had problems with admins deleting images on userspace is "because I said so" or similar. Rogue 9 05:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, that's not true. I quote, "It is believed that the use of low-resolution images of logos to illustrate the corporation, sports team, or organization in question on the English-language Wikipedia, hosted on servers in the United States by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation, qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law. Any other uses of this image, on Wikipedia or elsewhere, may be copyright infringement." Sure, suing for something stupid like that would be horrible PR, but shouldn't we stick to the letter of the law anyway? —BorgHunter (talk) 05:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with this summary, being of the opinion that the presence or absence of an edit summary is not relevant. As Seancdaug has stated, removing the images (or replacing them with less controversial ones where possible) would have been much more appropriate than whimfully deleting templates that are in widespread use. All the edit summaries in the world wouldn't make a bit of difference. — FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) 13:38, Jan. 1, 2006
Agree with all the above, although I should point out that WP:POINT is not the be all and end all, it is more the lack of discussion and respect for others' opinions that bothers me. the wub "?!" 15:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mistress Selina Kyle 16:15, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Hermione1980

Let me start out by saying I had no prior knowledge of Kelly Martin's deletion of any userbox templates, nor were any of the boxes I use on my userpage deleted. After looking through her deletion log, I see many templates deleted with a reason stating something to the effect of "contains a fair use image". Deleting the template helps how? If I'm not mistaken, the picture remains on Wikipedia unless it is deleted separately. If that's the only reason to delete a template, don't. Find another picture, or ditch the picture entirely.

She deleted other templates, reasoning that their use factionalises Wikipedia. Maybe they do. But is it up to one person to decide that? Why not put them up on TfD? Template:AmE-0 was deleted with the reason "divisive and/or insulting". It's humorous. It's not really much worse than the template I have on my userpage: "This user has no idea what 1337 is and/or prefers to contribute using proper words."

Yes, we have WP:IAR, but this is just taking it too far. Unilaterally deleting things tends to get people in hot water. I think there should have been some discussion of this before all these templates were deleted, whether at TfD or elsewhere.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

H e rmione1980 00:33, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Miborovsky -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 00:34, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
My point in the first place, but nicely stated. —BorgHunter (talk) 00:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Firebug 00:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC) WP:IAR should not apply to admin actions at all, since (unlike other actions) they cannot simply be undone by any other Wikipedian.[reply]
Exactly, particularly with regards to those templates deleted for including fair use images. – Seancdaug 00:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Chris 00:40, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Truly. --Fang Aili 00:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
AnnH ^(talk) 00:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
SPUI (talk - don't use sorted stub templates!) 00:55, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
– ugen64 01:08, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
couldnt have said it better myself ALKIVAR™ 01:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Synapse 01:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Ëvilphoenix ^Burn! 02:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
karmafist 02:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
—Guan aco 04:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
¿ WhyBeNormal ? 05:01, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rogue 9 05:40, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Niffweed17 05:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
—Locke Cole • t • c 06:31, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
--Terence Ong ^Talk 06:35, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
--God_of War 06:38, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
gadfium 08:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Lukobe 10:43, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ral315 (talk) 11:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
--Celestianpower ^háblame 12:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User:Noisy | Talk 13:26, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
FREAK OF NUR_xTURE 13:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Cactus.man ✍ 13:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Vamp:Willow 14:31, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
_→AzaToth 15:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
the wub "?!" 15:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
--AySz88^-^ 15:52, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
rst20xx 16:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mistress Selina Kyle 16:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
DES ^(talk) 16:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sceptr e ^(Talk) 17:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Xoloz 17:25, 1 January 2006 (UTC) Hermione is wise! Hermione for Arbcom![reply]
-- ( drini's page ☎ ) 17:59, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Nandesuka 19:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Blu Aardvark | ^{(talk) | (contribs)} 21:03, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside View by Soltak

The issue of user boxes is one that is highly contentious. While some feel that it's simply another way to express oneself on one's user page, something that is quite encouraged, others feel that it's a needless waste of time, space, and effort. I fall decidedly into the latter category. If one feels so strongly about something that he or she feels the need to express it to the world, what's wrong with just writing somewhere: "I'm interested in politics," "I like peaches," "I think democracy is stupid"? Why the need to create a template, many of which regrettably populate categories, and plaster it on your user page?

In any event, Kelly Martin's actions are justifiable and necessary. Could she have followed a process? Sure. She, however, is an experienced and valuable member of Wikipedia community. She has outlined her rationale for the deletions, all of which seem quite reasonable, and seems completely willing to continuing justifying those decisions to any who asks. This RFC, quite like the templates she deleted, is a waste of time, space, and effort.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

Soltak | Talk 00:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
David | Talk 00:42, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
—Ilyanep (Talk) 05:36, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Users who do not endorse this summary

"Could she have followed a process"? Not only could she have done so, she should be obligated to do so, if not as an administrator, than simply as an contributor. Her long experience and her value as an editor do not excuse her from the same guidelines of wikiquette and consensus-building that all editors should abide by. And the "reasonableness" of her rationale is the very basis of this RfC: clearly, there are a large number of editors who disagree that Ms. Martin's actions were reasonable, and that alone should be enough to emphasize the importance of following procedure. – Seancdaug 00:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'd hardly call a RfC that gets the amount of support this one has "a waste of time, space, and effort", whether I agree with it or not. I'm not specifically disagreeing with ~~the rest of your views~~ the first paragraph. -- grm_wnr Esc 00:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I partly agree with you that this RFC is a waste of time, but she should have given more thoughts. --Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 01:08, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I oppose this view, a paragon of snobbery, elitism and egotism. -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 00:55, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Firebug 00:59, 1 January 2006 (UTC) Grossly abusive. Kelly Martin should either repent or lose adminship, and so should all the people who support this abusive nonsense.[reply]
- That comment doesn't even make any sense, how could she and like 10 other admins should lose their powers because of this? --Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 01:08, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - The elitist attude that being an admin or "long experience" means it's ok to make large scale deletions without any discussion first - Synapse 01:23, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - Anyone who thinks they're above consensus should lose their adminship. Full stop. Firebug 01:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      - So Ambi, Slimvirgin, El_C and others that defended her should lost their powers as well, that what you say? --Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 01:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      - Certain core values of Wikipedia are not subject to consensus. While I'm not saying that this is the case here, many admins (including myself) stand ready to disregard consensus whenever said consensus conflicts with the Prime Directive of Wikipedia - Write an encyclopedia. If a consensus decided tomorrow that it was OK to delete articles because they talk about sex, such consensus would be utterly ignored. To quote Jimbo, "(Wikipedia) is not a democracy, this is not an experiment in anarchy, it's a project to make the world a better place by giving away a free encyclopedia." FCYTravis 01:59, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        You know, saying it isn't a democracy doesn't change the plain facts. Most matters are resolved by general votes among the members of the group; this is the very definition of direct democracy. This isn't to say that it should be one, but the fact of the matter is that it functions as one. Rogue 9 05:46, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        Wrong. Wikipedia is not a democracy, and most things are not handled by direct vote. The closest we come is RfA, and even then votes can be given different weighting and some outcomes are subject to bureaucrat discretion. By the way, I notice this text in a userbox on your page: "This user supports the use of personal attacks, because idiots don't need to be coddled." If you and everyone else in the Wikiproject Userbox fraternity decided tomorrow to hold a vote to get rid of WP:NPA, it wouldn't change a thing. Our core values are important, and if process or voting gets in the way of that, tough. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 18:38, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        You're absolutely right that Wikipedia is not a democracy, and I do not agree with Rogue 9's preceding comment. Wikipedia does, however, work on the basis of consensus. And clearly the interpretation of the project's core goals shared by Ms. Martin and her supporters is not shared by a majority of editors contributing to this RfC. This sideshow about "core goals" is ridiculous: I highly doubt that anyone here, when pressed, would deny that they support the goal to produce the best encyclopedia possible. The issue, and one that I'm increasingly shocked and disheartened to find so many veteran editors and administrators seem utterly oblivious to, is that no one individual's interpretation of the project's goals (and the means neccessary to reach them) is more worthy than anyone else's, and that a willingness to engage in discussion and consensus-building to determine a viable project-wide approach is essential. Vigilantism serves the core goals no better than direct democracy. – Seancdaug 18:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        
        If in doubt, don't delete. --SPUI (talk - don't use sorted stub templates!) 02:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Aye Aye (100% for number 5 above)Eagle (talk) (desk) 01:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
karmafist 02:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There was absolutely nothing justifiable or necessary in her actions. —Locke Cole • t • c 02:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Chris 03:25, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Terence Ong ^Talk 06:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ian¹³_ID:540053 10:00, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User:Noisy | Talk 13:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree per above. Some editors may be too shy or inarticulate to tell us about themselves in their own words. Userboxes address that need, and help build community among editors. — FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) 13:45, Jan. 1, 2006
Cactus.man ✍ 13:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC) - Per Seancdaug.[reply]
Mistress Selina Kyle 16:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Process is not optional, not on deletion issues. Part of becomming an admin is being trusted to adhere to process, IMO. Not following it damages the trust people have in admins and in the project as a whole, and damages the comunity spirit on which wikipedia depends. It therefore harms the project as a whole, to an extent far greater than any possible gain from deleting these userboxes. DES ^(talk) 16:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Cyrius

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.

WTH?

This person thinks many people have lost sight of the purpose of userboxes, viewing them as an end unto themselves.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

Cyrius|✎ 01:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Kelly Martin (talk) 01:21, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Blu Aardvark | ^{(talk) | (contribs)} 01:25, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Userboxes are fine, but let's not fetishize them. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 01:52, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
—Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:15, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Golbez 05:38, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well put. Ambi 05:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Zach ^{(Smack Back)} 05:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Although that doesn't necessarily mean they should all be immediately deleted. [[Sam Korn]] 13:52, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unless they're really, really ugly. Or stupid. {{user freedom}} is a current favourite, as are those silly "hates Dubya" and "reverts vandals" (no kidding!) templates. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 15:01, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hear, hear. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 15:01, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Users who do not endorse this summary

O
M
G {{{info}}}

They can be rather annoying and stupid, but so are many things on user space. It has been policy/tradition/common sense/whatever you want to call it that user space is subject to much looser rules than others. This outside view also ignores the heart of the dispute - the mass deletion, assuming that all who would oppose it don't matter. --SPUI (talk - don't use sorted stub templates!) 01:25, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with SPUI's comments. This is a non-sequitur: the issue has never been the value (or lack thereof) of these templates. This is the sort of argument that should be made on the Wikipedia:Templates for deletion discussions that Ms. Martin unilaterally bypassed. – Seancdaug 01:35, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That seems to be the problem with this discussion. Those on one side say the value of the templates is irrelevant, it's the way they were deleted that's the issue. Those on the other side say that the way they were deleted is irrelevant, it's the role of the templates that's the issue. There may not be a meeting of minds on this for some time. David | Talk 01:43, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This summary is a red herring. —BorgHunter (talk) 01:40, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's hilarious that the argument here against userboxes has been put into a userbox. Remind me to make {{User Irony-5}} in honor of this occasion. karmafist 02:25, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Make {{User Irony-5}} in honor of this occasion, Karmafist. (You asked to be reminded.) :-) Hermione1980 02:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - lol, thanks :-) I'll make a {{thank you}} userbox. Talk page template messages are so 2005 ;-) karmafist 02:42, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User:Zoe|^(talk) 05:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
FREAK OF NUR_xTURE. 13:46, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Mistress Selina Kyle 16:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Cjmarsicano

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.

Ms. Martin's actions in her wholesale deletion of userboxes - items meant specifically for user pages only and not affecting the intent of Wikipedia whatsoever - is nothing short of fascist. She has already deleted many templates (one of them was for the US Green Party, of which I am a member and had a userbox indicating same on my userpage) - so I am one of those affected by her actions. She has indicated that she will continue in her ways without apology, discussion, or consensus, and has openly said in so many words, "screw the process". I say in return, screw her instead. She should be totally and completely ashamed of herself and as penance I would highly recommend and endorse removing her administership privleges. --Cjmarsicano 01:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~)

Somebody say amen! Rogue 9 05:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Niffweed17 05:55, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I could not agree more. Many users have put time and effort into userboxes, why should she be able to destroy that? Ian¹³_ID:540053 10:03, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
DES ^(talk) 16:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ultimately, Kelly's just a symptom of a larger problem, in that policy for all intents and purposes is broken, and she's just filling the void with her own POV. karmafist 18:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside View by Cool Cat

All processes on wikipedia exist to help us establish a better encyclopedia. When the process is redundent and too time consuming for the obvious desicion it is best to ignore it completely (such as all of speedy deletes rather than vfding them). My view regarding this issue is a bit split.

File:Yin yang.png

Side 1

Aside from copyright issues the userboxes should not be an issue after all it is often much easier to use 10 userboxes rather than explaining all of it in a paragraph. Userboxes are the best thing since sliced bread as far as I care.
I like to advertise what wikiprojects I am assosiated with. The purpose of wikipedia userboxes is that they tell people my interests so that if they are writing about lets say Star Trek or about Anime, they can ask for my assistance just by having a glance at my userpage (due to userboxes).

Side 2

Too many {{user ****}} templates started appearing and it has became unmanagable. Often user templates are used for stuff one should take for granted (such as someone being a wikipedia editor).
People should not relly comletely on userboxes. Pages that contain nothing but userboxes are bad for health and should be accompanied by text. Its "too much good stuff".
Wikipedia is a comunity, people oppossing/supporting rfas, vfds, and other votes determined by the personal affiliations (Religion, political pary, race, gender, etc...) of another is something we really want to evade.
Individual political parties are too spesific userpages. General rule of templates is that it is usable by large masses.

Regarding Kelly Martin's action: as per Jimbos ruling karyn is only the messenger, however I would prefer a slower process so as not to accidentaly delete few usefull userbox templates ammong the masses that needs to go. --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 01:42, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this summary, but it's not relevant. This is a user conduct RfC, not a place to decide if the userboxes should stay or go. —BorgHunter (talk) 01:44, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with BorgHunter there, this is a RfC, not a TFD debate. Sorry --Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 01:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You know, I think whether the UBX project is manageable or not should be left to those who actually, y'know, manage it. If you don't want to deal with them, don't work on the project. Rogue 9 05:52, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with BorgHunter too. And I do manage it, and it is perfectly manageable, just a bit of a handful. Ian¹³_ID:540053 10:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In order to coment on what the user has done warranting an RfC such a summary is imperative. This is not a tfd discussion but Kelly's actions and this rfc are strictly about template (userbox) deletions right? --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 12:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Request for clarification

The previous comments are valid, but I do have a question regarding the final paragraph of your statement: precisely what "ruling" of Jimbo's are we talking about? Ms. Martin has not specified to which comments she was referring. I asked her to clarify the nature of these comments, and she then clarified that she was "deriving policy" from Jimbo's statements. Since these statements still have not emerged, and because it seems wildly out-of-character for Jimbo to unilaterally impose new policy on non-critical issues, I would like to formally request that Ms. Martin share this statement. – Seancdaug 01:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's on the talk page for this RfC. - Synapse 02:00, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- You can read his mail in full here (think that's the one) --Sherool (talk) 02:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm aware of the quote on the talk page, but I noticed that Ms. Martin hasn't confirmed or denied that it is the correct one. If it is, then I fail to see how it can be interepreted as anything more than a statement of personal opinion, and fail to understand how it is being read as a call for Ms. Martin's actions. – Seancdaug 02:31, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - There's also this, from Category:Wikipedians by politics [14]:
    Just a comment from Jimbo: I would like to discourage the use of these and similar templates on user pages, instead encourage people to adopt an attitude of 'Here we are Wikipedians, out there we are advocates'. The point is, we don't act in Wikipedia as a Democrat, a Republican, a pro-Lifer, a pro-Choicer, or whatever. Here we are Wikipedians, which means: thoughtful, loving, neutral.--Jimbo Wales 19:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC --Calton | Talk 08:44, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - Thank you. That's very informative. – Seancdaug 08:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Urthogie

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.

Just as users may talk about their POV on their talk pages, they may make userboxes. We don't need to be perfect wikipedians, we can freely express our view with userboxes if we wan't to. Hiding our beliefs will not change how we edit, its a non-issue for talk pages.--Urthogie 01:44, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Outside view by User:NicholasTurnbull

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.

The perennial issue over deletion process crops up with surprising regularity at least once every three months, if not more often, on Wikipedia; ultimately what we are seeing here is a symptomatic expression, if you will, of the underlying issues surrounding deletion processes at large. In my view, the deletion processes have become so ridiculously cumbersome and bureaucratic that they discourage people from seeking consensus, because they are the preferred method and are such a monumental pain in the arse to go through.

I myself will readily admit to perhaps applying IAR too liberally when approaching deletion, simply because the deletion processes are so incredibly ridiculous and unwieldy. Let's face it, we're here to write an encyclopaedia. When encyclopaedic content is being proposed for deletion, it strikes me that consensus is absolutely necessary in order to maintain proper editorial controls, and also to ensure a productive collaboration environment. However, these userboxes are not part of the encyclopaedia - they are self-references, which discouraged on Wikipedia (see Wikipedia:Avoid self references).

The concerns raised re. bloc voting and the classification of Wikipedians based on particular points of view are echoed elsewhere other than user page boxes (see, for example, Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Catholic Alliance of wikipedia, which I ended up closing early to end the mud-slinging match that happens with such articles). Since we're here to build an encyclopaedia, we should be focusing our efforts on discussing encyclopaedic content, not quibbling over widgets that people dream up to look pretty or to advertise their views. I think that such things which do not fall under the purview of encyclopaedia editing really don't have to go through the cumbersome deletion processes, simply because otherwise we'll end up doing nothing else than squabbling rather than writing the encyclopaedia.

Kelly did the right thing, in my view (although, perhaps a few talk page messages wouldn't have hurted, but by no means obligatory) and I implore other people who wish to get on making an encyclopaedia to do likewise, only with a few talk page messages here and there documenting what you're doing. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 02:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Opposition to this view

Your lackadaisical dismissal of the importance of talkpages is appalling. "although, perhaps a few talk page messages wouldn't have hurted, but by no means obligatory" I take this opportunity to ask you a question: Who builds Wikipedia? Is it you? Is it Jimbo? Is it Ms Martin? Or is it the community? Jimbo said, "We make the Internet not suck". We. Not Jimbo, not Ms Martin, not you, not me. We, the community. Wikipedia is nothing if not for its community, and Ms Martin is threating to destroy it. -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 02:21, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Miborovsky: I did not dismiss the importance of talk pages in the slightest; it is merely that spending time discussing objets d'arte and POV indication banners is far less productive than spending time discussing articles - or better still, being bold and writing the things. I cannot possibly see any reason why a project which is meant to be writing an encyclopaedia should squander its time resources bickering about pleasant objects to add to one's talk page. I made it clear above that I would advise better communication, but I fail to see why entering into lengthy discussion is at all useful over something which contributes nothing to our project's actual goals other than to satisfy the aesthetic desires of its participants.

In response to your equestion - "Who builds Wikipedia?" - Wikipedians build Wikipedia, of course. User boxes do not get articles written, they are thus not a part of the goals of our project. Best regards, --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 02:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. Though there is a reason talkpages exist, and that is to use them. Article creators don't get a "Would you like a talkpage with this article?" button and that tells you something - talkpages are not optional! And as a counter point to your answer to my question, "Who builds Wikipedia?", do you honestly think that all the megabytes of bandwidth we have spent on this page has gotten any articles written? Do you think the community overall has benefitted from Ms Martin's outburst on New Year's Day, 2006? Do you know how many editors Ms Martin has pissed off? Do all of them squander their time doing nothing but designing fancy-looking userboxes? Would all of them return after this debacle, after the work they put into Wikipedia, no matter how misguided or inappropriate, has been so callously dismissed? You answered my question - Wikipedians build Wikipedia. How many Wikipedians have we lost this day, and how many articles have we got written because of this? -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 02:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To "Who builds Wikipedia?": Would so many editors do what they do here if they saw admins deleting things without notice? Admins ignoring discussion and resolving to do whatever they wanted regardless? Admins ignoring WP:CIVIL, attacking other users and belittling their contributions? Admins laughing off the fact that their actions have pissed off a lot of editors? Would they be more or less inclined to donate money and time to a project that was subject to the whims of a privileged few? -- Synapse 17:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another opposing view

I cannot disagree more strongly. If the deletion process is too "cumbersome" for administrators, then they should never have accepted the role in the first place. Ultimately, Wikipedia editors need to be able to stand by their supposed convictions. Emphasizing the community aspect of the project, and promoting the importance of consensus is meaningless if sysops feel free to disregard their own words because it makes things difficult. It alienates editors, and in doing so drives them away from Wikipedia, thereby damaging the goal of "making an encyclopedia." At the risk of sounding like a policy wonk, if we can't expect sysops to follow the rules of the project, how can we expect anyone else to do so? If we can't expect sysops to seek out consensus and to work with the community-at-large, how on earth can we ask newcomers to do so? – Seancdaug 02:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Seancdaug: Admins never accept nomination on the basis that they believe Wikipedia processes are perfect; I do not believe I am alone in my view that the deletion processes have become far far too heavy going, although even if I am I do not believe that invalidates my ability to act as an administrator. I believe in consensus wholeheartedly - this project wouldn't even have got off the ground if it didn't exist, wikis cannot work without some means of bringing editors together into a cohesive whole. There is, however, a difference between debate and consensus, and indeed it is a fallacy to believe that the existence of the former necessarily brings the latter into existence, or vice versa. Consensus is not necessarily achieved by debate, and indeed, plenty of debates fail to bring together consensus. These user page boxes are not part of our encyclopaedic project, they are toys we have created for aesthetic purposes and point-of-view representations. There was no consensus to bring them into play to begin with, so why is it a violation of consensus to reverse that change and delete them? We have never had a consensus that building user page boxes was necessary to a good, neutral encyclopaedia. I would point out that the status quo is not necessarily the same thing as consensus; that is, circumstances may exist even where consensus does not, but just because nothing has been done about a particular decision does not make it consensus by default. I work with the community as much as possible - indeed, I'm sure you can observe I would not be talking here if that was not so, and my rôle on Wikipedia gravitates around talking, namely mediation. I am not advocating no discussion; what I am advocating is that admins use their judgement, and be bold, and that user page boxes are not encyclopaedic and thus do not require the same editorial review processes (which, incidentally do not generate consensus a lot of the time). Best regards, --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 02:44, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is certainly true that review processes and debate do not always generate consensus. It similarly true that consensus cannot be generated without some processing of gauging public opinion. And I never once stated that belief in all of Wikipedia policies and processes is a prerequisite for adminship. A willingness to uphold those policies and processes, however, is. They exist for a reason, and if it is not possible to raise the consensus necessary to alter them, then there is very likely a reason for their existence in the first place. Ultimately, you'll notice that the case against Ms. Martin does not solely rest upon her refusal to go through the proper channels, but in her refusal to communicate at all before taking action, and her openly inflammatory response to criticism thereafter.

As you argue yourself, debate does not always lead to consensus, and, similarly, consensus does not emerge solely from debate. The argument that the proliferation of userboxes, for good or ill, was the result of a mere adherence to status quo seems to flatly ignore the situation on the ground, as it were I would also hasten to add that the very presence of user pages on Wikipedia suggests a belief that they do serve some purpose towards the stated goals of the project, even if indirectly. And consensus, to my knowledge, has always been considered a standard of behavior throughout all namespaces. Even if I accept the argument that the formal review processes are inapplicable outside of the article namespace (an argument that I have never once encountered before this RfC, and find highly dubious), more general standards of behavior and of conduct almost certainly do. And it is these standards that Ms. Martin has flaunted, and has promised to continue flaunting. There was no "quibbling," as you put it, until Ms. Martin decided to impose her own personal policy on the community at large. Ultimately, this is conduct unbecoming of a sysop, and even less becoming of a member of arbcom. – Seancdaug 03:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view of Zzyzx11

My two cents:

Reading Jimbo's message on the mailing list, it seems that he was only raising the issue instead of setting policy (just like he did when he sent the message back in May that "all images which are for non-commercial only use and by permission only are not acceptable for Wikipedia and will be deleted." [15])
Likewise, on his message on Category:Wikipedians by politics [16], he is only discouraging people, not necessarily banning the practice entirely.
Deleting a userbox, or any template, just because it has a non-free image is too extreme because you can easily remove the image from the template.
It is not helpful for users like me who see vague entries in the deletion log like "political entity -- delete per jimbo" without a link to Jimbo's message, a policy page, or a discussion on the topic.
Even if you got rid of these userboxes, people would probably just paste these messages directly on their user pages. WP:UP says that a user can list "information about your areas of expertise and interest, likes and dislikes..." Wouldn't briefly mentioning one's political or religious views also fall into the categories of one's interests, likes, and dislikes? I would have liked to seen a discussion about that issue instead of unilaterally removing such messages from people's user pages.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

Zzyzx11 (Talk) 09:40, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mistress Selina Kyle 16:17, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Specially 3rd and 4th point. -- ( drini's page ☎ ) 18:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view of Ral315

I respect Kelly Martin, and I understand her intent here (and sympathize with it.) But the way it was handled, by unilaterally deleting the templates without any discussion, was nothing short of disruptive. And deleting templates with fair use images is absurd. Simply replacing the fair use images with text ("dem", for example, instead of the Democratic Party logo) serves the same purpose, while still allowing the template to exist.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

Ral315 (talk) 11:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Commander Keane 13:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
DES ^(talk) 16:57, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Seancdaug 18:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the templates can be replaced to make images free. And even if she was right on intentions, she being on ArbCom should have more respect to process than "screw process". -- ( drini's page ☎ ) 18:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by D-Day

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.

I'm not an admin, so I don't know the processes they go through in a day, but nonetheless, this is, at best, anti-democratic. None of the userboxes on my user page were deleted, but one I did create was. The userboxes have recently caused a controversy around here, because they are POV, non-encyclopedic, etc. But I think they're just a fad. Yes, my user page is flooded with them, and I'm not ashamed to admit that. But who knows if they'll be there six months to a year from now. My point is some people just take them WAY too seriously, on both sides of the issue.

But moving on, I have never spoken with Ms. Martin before this issue popped up, but by looking at her userpage, she seems to be a very devoted woman, so

This user is a Wikipedian.

. But that will be difficult for me to keep. You don't go deleting things without a consensus, and then blast those who have the nerve to reprimand you. That's the equivalent of Communism, ironically. About the image issue, one userbox I created was brought up for deletion due to non-free image use. After they were removed, the tfd was taken out. Images shouldn't be a reason for deletion since they are easily fixable. My recommendation is this, a definite stripping of Admin duties, and should this behavior continue by any chance(Gad, I hope not), then a block from editing should be put into place.

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Stripping out of adminship is way too harsh. We all make mistakes once in a while. -- ( drini's page ☎ ) 18:08, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If she had only deleted a couple of userboxes and didn't bite people who tried to reprimand her, than I would agree with your logic. Her behavior and subsesquent behavior has been disgusting, andcan almost be considered vandal-like.(Ignoring repeated warnings, rude behavior. Trust me on this. I'm an ex-vandal myself.) --D-Day 19:23, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Snowspinner

I am appalled that this RfC was conducted with talk page spamming using a template. RfCs are not a place to try to attack good faith actions with overwhelming force, and are not a place to gather "me too" signatures. Frankly, this entire RfC ought to be speedied as an out of process abomination. I have never been this wholly disgusted at elements of the community. Every single person who was involved in the use of that template should seriously rethink their priorities in using Wikipedia.

Phil Sandifer 17:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Monicasdude 18:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
--NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 19:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Amen. --Wgfinley 20:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone who doesn't think Kelly was acting in good faith needs their head examined. Maybe she was misguided (I'm not sure, though I know I wouldn't have done the same) but to say that she was acting in bad faith is just plain wrong. [[Sam Korn]] 20:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Users who oppose this summary

1.Template:Bigspace Looks like you don't have a clue what's going on:

The template made about the RfC was ONLY placed on two pages: Wikipedia:WikiProject Userboxes and Wikipedia:Userboxes - by members of the very WikiProject involved. That's not "spamming".
- It was not an "attack", it merely mentioned that many templates had been deleted and provided a link to this request for comment (I didn't make this by the way, but I saw it). I thought it was very useful myself too, as I had no idea what was going on until I saw a message on someone else's talk page. There's nothing wrong with bringing attention to such a blatant abuse of admin powers like this, and there were definitely no rules broken, unless you're going to say that no one should be allowed to mention that RfCs are in process..
- As a matter of fact some of the things that occurred after in response to that were quite chilling and much more serious: People mentioning the RfC were banned from Wikipedia indefinitely (e.g. God of War, User:Saveus)
Kelly Martin was acting very much out of process herself. Mass-scale, non-consensus deletions of material from userpages without applicable support from policy is pretty serious, and deserved to be brought attention to.
It was hardly a "good faith action".:

(From Wikipedia chat room, this was spotted by User:SPUI who posted it on the talk page here and was promptly banned. The reasons for this were described as "we should be able to say what we want without it coming back to haunt us.":)

[19:03:53] <karynn> i deleted a bunch of useless shit, and the people in love with it whined.

[19:18:34] <ambi2> meh, I'm all for deleting them now. It's interesting that basically all the people who voted against you on that RfC were newbies irritated that their l33t toys had disappeared.

[19:18:55] <karynn> yeah, pretty much. along with a handful of process wonks

[19:20:24] <karynn> by the way, i'm just loving this. i should get RfC'd more often.

[19:43:19] <karynn> i peed on someone's playground, i guess."

Template:Bigspace Template:Bigspace Template:Bigspace Mistress Selina Kyle ^{(Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉)} 16:58, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Quite honestly, that's a perfectly valid rationale for not wanting the chat log posted. Furthermore, it's external to Wikipedia itself, and is not strictly relevant to this RfC. Posting this here, despite the clear disapproval of the participants, is unconscionably rude and degrades this entire procedure to the level of witch hunt. – Seancdaug 19:43, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's on the Wikipedia computer servers, paid by the same Wikimedia Foundation, about the same encyclopedia: I think it's relevant. --20:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I've never seen irc logs forged before.

[21:13] <spectie> I saw a man eat a bicycle :(

- FrancisTyers 21:08, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

2.Template:Bigspace It's hard to assume good faith in the case of a mass, out-of-process deletion. The unique nature of the situation made it difficult to follow the usual protocol. It seems a bit hypocritical to condemn this RFC for being "an out of process abomination" when Kelly showed a blatant disregard not only for process but for community consensus when she mass deleted legitimate templates that were in widespread use. Frankly, I think Kelly should have been immediately desysopped as a temporary emergency measure to stop the administrative vandalism, just as Aevar once was when he mass deleted various images from Wikipedia. The issues then could have been sorted out later. But you can't go around mass deleting stuff and then complain when people react quite vehemently to that. Firebug 16:58, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

3. karmafist 18:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Firebug

I am appalled both by the grotesque defiance of community consensus embodied in the original deletions, and the defense of these actions by User:Snowspinner and others, their mocking tone, and their utter refusal to take good faith complaints seriously. I have already notified Jimbo of the ongoing situation, and I hope that we can receive some clarification on this issue soon. If not, then it is clear that a request for arbitration will have to be filed regarding this issue. User:Kelly Martin and User:Snowspinner should both lose their administrative powers for flagrant contempt of the Wikipedia community.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

Xoloz 18:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC) God help Wikipedia[reply]
karmafist 18:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC) Ditto.[reply]
Mistress Selina Kyle 18:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC) — The fact that stuff like this is allowed to happen shows that something has clearly gone wrong in the administrative workings of Wikipedia.. — WP:RFDA[reply]
Ian¹³_ID:540053 18:21, 1 January 2006 (UTC) Sorry, but how can we have a sence of trust, when the people empowered go against the community policies.[reply]
rst20xx 18:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Users who do not endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

While I don't suport the way she handled it (I recall once she criticizing some user for not discussing things when requested), I don't understand why everybody is going for too harsh penalties. -- ( drini's page ☎ ) 18:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I would say it is because they are administrators, and they have power to do community decided tasks, and not to use their own discression when approiate actions could have been taken (image removal, TfD ect.) Ian¹³_ID:540053 18:21, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - I support de-adminship not because of the original deletion (anyone can do rash things occasionally) but because of the utter lack of any remorse, and the contempt for the community exhibited after the fact. Firebug 18:30, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- As Ian13 says, it's a matter of trust. According to Wikipedia:Administrators, a sysop is supposed to be a "trusted member of the community." Ms. Martin's contemptous disregard for process, and her refusual to accept that one of her major jobs is "carrying out the consensus of the community," suggests that she lacks the temperament to remain in her current position. This is a simply a recognition of her actions, and a recognition that Ms. Martin, while no doubt an upstanding editor in her own right, is not suited to bear the additional powers of a sysop. As far as I'm concerned, it's not even that punitive: adminship isn't a badge of honor, it's a job. Almost everyone agrees (in theory, at least) that adminship does not confer an elevated social status upon the recipient. So the only thing at issue should be whether or Ms. Martin has demonstrated herself capable of carrying out the requirements of her job. Please note, I am not calling for her removal at this juncture (and it is not really an appropriate discussion for an RfC, anyway). As you say, Drini, occassional lapses are to be tolerated. I am not, however, convinced that she has indicated any regret or remorse at her actions, and her earlier statements indicating that she would not hesitate to repeat her deeds do give me pause for thought?: would a candidate for adminship who openly admitted that s/he would misuse the powers of the position and refuse to be held accountable to the community be promoted in the first place? – Seancdaug 18:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No harsh penalties, eariler you wanted everyone who supported her also to have their powers taken away from her, to the point of filing another RFC against another admin, this conduct from both sides is unacceptable. --Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 19:00, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Kelly Martin was acting in good faith, and I might note that she hasn't deleted any templates since the RfC was filed. Besides the fact that only an ArbCom decision can remove a person's privileges, I don't think that one incident is enough to even contemplate a revocation of someone's rights on this project. When the ArbCom election comes up, I'll certainly have second thoughts about voting for her, but to consider removing her adminship smacks of revenge and retaliation. This RfC has become something of a witch hunt, and I for one do not condone this. RfCs are about gauging community consensus, and I doubt Kelly will go around deleting more things without discussing it first. Calling for a revocation of her adminship is extremely inappropriate in this forum and at this stage. —BorgHunter (talk) 19:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- So do we sit back and see if the going against the community which she claims she will do (through mass deleting again), and then file a RfAr if people who confront her face the same fate? Ian¹³_ID:540053 19:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Sit back? Absolutely. There's no need to go further than a RfC if Kelly doesn't continue with the same behavior. Personally, I don't see you and Firebug as trying to resolve this dispute...rather, it seems that you're trying to escalate it. Please don't. —BorgHunter (talk) 20:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by Xoloz

Time for a touch of drama, folks. Ms. Martin's act here is symptomatic of a certain unilateralist attitude that I have noted among several WPians self-classifed as "elite." These users seem content to disregard, ignore, or neglect even to consider having discussions over the use of their admin power, and are known for the refrain, "This is ridiculous" to characterize those who urge a more deliberative course.

I'm a calm person: I believe in discussions, I believe in consensus, I enjoy reconciling differences with others by open dialogue. WP is an encyclopedia first, but an encyclopedia is made by groups of honest people, not by the whims of one person's (or one elite's) ego. Mr. Wales (Wiki-king) seems to understand this, and rarely asserts himself. Ms. Martin, it seems, does not -- and she is a public face of WP, as a member of Arbcom, and an admin.

I have curtailled my involvement in WP lately because I have become exhausted seeing "elite" users defy consensus, and hold discussion in contempt. Frankly, I have no interest in aiding a project which endorses open discussion in policy, but seems plagued by some leaders who demean it de facto through their actions.

If the WP "elite" cannot make peace with their egos, and learn to consider the opinions of others' before acting, I have no desire to work here any longer. If unilateralism persists as a mechanism of leadership here, I am sure others will join over time, and the encyclopedia will fail. I want these elite users to understand -- to learn good judgment -- and I want the encyclopedia to thrive. Increasingly, I fear this will not happen. Xoloz 18:01, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

Firebug 18:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC) What's the point of participating when you repeatedly get spit on and slapped down by a handful of users who think they're above everyone else?[reply]
WhiteNight ^{T | @ | C} 18:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A touch more dramatic than I would have put it, but I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment. – Seancdaug 18:07, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
karmafist 18:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mistress Selina Kyle 18:15, 1 January 2006 (UTC) — WP:RFDA[reply]

Outside view by the wub

There is a difference between actions that conflict with the building of an encyclopedia, and actions that can happily run parallel to it. Ironically Kelly Martin's unilateral actions and refusal to apologise have led to this massive arguement, which itself is "wasting time" and in no way helping build an encyclopedia. Why not just leave the userboxes alone?

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

the wub "?!" 18:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
karmafist 18:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
—Locke Cole • t • c 18:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
-- ( drini's page ☎ ) 20:21, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another outside view by Aranda56

Let me make this clearer, I noticed the worst in both sides of this RFC, personal attacks, more random RFCs, and other conflects. Kelly Martin did wrong and everyone knows that. But that doesn't mean that she and EVERYONE who defended her should have their powers removed or play the riot game which in my opinion, it's about to become. This RFC is without a doubt breaking the community apart, all for a few wrongfully deleted userboxes. Lets try to find a solution for this debate. Fair and simple. Why not let another admin restore those userboxes and have a simple community debate on it. It's that simple, and it would end this conflect once and for all. Thank You

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

--Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 19:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
—BorgHunter (talk) 20:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
-- ( drini's page ☎ ) 20:27, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by WAS 4.250 20:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Kelly Martin, a member of our highest court ArbCom, the interpreter of the words and will of our beloved founder, said "Screw process." Its clear we must all conform to to the latest revelation and teaching of Kelly Martin and obey her injunction to "Screw process." She has set a fine and noble example. Let us follow it.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

Users who do not endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

A mistake is no justification for further mistakes -- ( drini's page ☎ ) 20:27, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No way, we need to follow process. --Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 20:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outside view by rst20xx

I'll keep this short; As can be clearly seen, many of the Userboxes Kelly Martin deleted have been restored by a wide variety of other users. If she attempts to delete the userboxes again, I see no reason why this restoration wouldn't happen again too. So I put it forth that no matter what your opinion is on whether the boxes should be deleted or not, you should agree that her attempts to continue deleting them are ultimately futile and a waste of time for her and others. Especially this method of deleting them without proper discussion first, which is likely to cause a knee-jerk reaction (and indeed has).

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

rst20xx 20:25, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

All signed comments and talk not related to a vote or endorsement, should be directed to this page's discussion page.

(Mistress Selina Kyle block discussion moved to talk page) . -- Curps 23:30, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(Various discussion moved to the talk page, where all further discussion belongs.) —Locke Cole • t • c 10:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 749: / Line 749: @@
 ::::It's on the Wikipedia computer servers, paid by the same Wikimedia Foundation, about the same encyclopedia: I think it's relevant. --20:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
+:::::I've never seen [[irc]] logs forged before.
+::::::<tt>[21:13] <spectie> I saw a man eat a bicycle :(</tt>
+:::::- [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 21:08, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 .{{bigspace}} It's hard to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]] in the case of a mass, out-of-process deletion. The unique nature of the situation made it difficult to follow the usual protocol. It seems a bit hypocritical to condemn this RFC for being "an out of process abomination" when Kelly showed a blatant disregard not only for process but for community consensus when she mass deleted legitimate templates that were in widespread use. Frankly, I think Kelly should have been immediately desysopped as a temporary emergency measure to stop the administrative vandalism, just as Aevar once was when he mass deleted various images from Wikipedia. The issues then could have been sorted out later. But you can't go around mass deleting stuff and then complain when people react quite vehemently to that. [[User:Firebug|Firebug]] 16:58, 1 January 2006 (UTC)