Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Linking/Archive 3

Overlinking: guideline "more links than lines"

I think that the rule that an article is ovelinked if it has more links than lines (in the section Overlinking) is not very useful as the length of a line can vary depending on the browser, browsersettings and the resolution of the screen. I think it should be deleted or changed. --Galadh 13:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it seems rather arbitrary; and if it means sentences, it seems like it could be reasonable to have more than one link per sentence. —Centrx→talk • 18:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, I don't think it's a linear relationship. A very short article with more than one link per sentence might not be overlinked at all, but an extremely long article with only one link per every three or four sentences might nevertheless still be drastically overlinked. Xtifr 09:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed the guideline --Galadh 10:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I have put it back. I do not think this was properly discussed for enough time by enough people.

I agree that it is affected by screen width and article length. However, it is useful because it is simple. I have not heard of anyone involved in a dispute where this guideline was challenged. If you think it could be made more effective without being overcomplicated, feel free to make a suggestion. Perhaps we could look at examples of overlinked articles to see what their characteristics are. bobblewik 16:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I see that Centrx has removed the guidance again with the comment If you disagree with an edit, explain why; there does not need to be a month-long discussion with a quorum for minor change to the MoS on links.

The explain why bit is in my previous contribution here. I respect your good intentions, Centrx. But rather than removing the guidance a third time, can you please say why you disagree with what I said? bobblewik 19:59, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Just because you don't know of anyone using this provision in a dispute does not mean it is not a bad provision. Every one of the last 4 articles featured on the main page have more links than lines in the introductions. It is an arbitrary, wrongful provision; why is it justified and what is wrong with the reasoning above in this section? —Centrx→talk • 21:36, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I agreed with Centrx. I also thought I should cut away the whole section( Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links)#Overlinking and underlinking: what's the best ratio?), because ordinary readers can never behave like such. All article pages should be full of links as many as possible, even year and date, because it makes readers easy to read articles and to find the link(s) readers want to read. It is very very obvious fact for ordinary readers! -- by PTNFromm 16:05, 10 May 2007 (UTC), 04:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

In addition, e.g., when all "ant" in an article are linked by [[]], it is easiest for ordinary readers to distinguish the word(s) automatically in an article. -- by PTNFromm 16:05, 10 May 2007 (UTC), 17:09, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I, therefore, erased the whole section lying to ordinary readers about ordinary readers, because such an unkind and nonsense regulation would never get Wikipedia:Consensus esp. of ordinary readers. -- by PTNFromm 17:09, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with the removal. There needs to be some type of guidance on how many links should be contained in an article, and I disagree with the notion that every word should be linked. I also disagree that incomplete dates should be linked, but that is for another discussion. Cacophony 05:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

How many links should be contained in an article depends on what kind of links are contained in each article. Therefore, it is impossible to have objective rules on how many links should be contained in an article. How many links should be contained in an article? The objective and collective answer is "from one to not every." It's nonsense. If you need a guidance, first, show your objective logic on what kind of links should or should not be allowed. If you do it, you will notice that there can't be objective rules with objective reason and that it depends. -- by PTNFromm 04:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

In addition, I didn't say that "every word should be linked." I myself have never done and seen such a crazy editting. Where did you see such a crazy editor? I just said, All article pages should be full of links as many as possible, even year and date, because it makes readers easy to read articles and to find the link(s) readers want to read. It is very very obvious fact for ordinary readers! To put it simply, "The more links each article has, the easier it is for each reader to read, click and find." What's problem with this objective reason? -- by PTNFromm 04:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposal: Multiple linking in tables

On a related note, what about items in tables? I've come across tables of lists of TV episodes, with their respective writer or director listed. Many writers/directors appear multiple times in a table, and the editors have painstakingly ensured that each writer is only linked for their first episode, and no subsequent ones. Or indeed not linked at all, if that person is mentioned elsewhere in some previous body text. I believe this to be a waste of effort on their part, and positively unhelpful for the reader. Having found the entry in the table I'm interested in, and seeing the writer unlinked, I'm then left to do a search of the page to find a functioning link for that writer. Can I suggest a recommendation that all such entries in tables should be linked, even if repeated, due to the "random-access" nature of tables? --KJBracey 14:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

One extreme example of this I've come across is List of Doctor Who serials. And that suggests I mean to include "lists" as well as actual "tables" in my proposal. -- KJBracey 14:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I agreed with KJBracey completely (as well as others?). And apparently no objection. So, I erased the nonsense sentence in question. -- by PTNFromm 17:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Context: example

The paragraph which instructs to use the most precise target uses an example which doesn't make sense to me: "V8 engine" rather than "V8 engine" while V8 redirects to V8 engine. This example seems to address an evident case that you don't label a link foo if the article is named foo bar and you refer to foo bar as foo bar in your text. In that case, foo bar is not more precise, it's just the canonical name. I tried to fix that, but was reverted by User:Centrx. Is there anyone else that thinks like me, or am I missing something?--Chealer 22:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Why shouldn't the link be labelled "V8 engine" instead of plain "V8"? —Centrx→talk • 04:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

You misunderstand me, sorry if I was unclear. A link to V8 engine should be labelled as V8 engine. What I'm saying is that this is obvious, and does not exemplify what the paragraph talks about.--Chealer 11:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I see; okay. I don't think Debian is well-known enough to be a helpful example. —Centrx→talk • 05:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Maintenance with multiple links

There is a problem with multiple links on a page. It makes maintenance of the page difficult if the links change (as the link count is only given once in the what links here), which is why multiple links to the same page has been discouraged in the past. Revision as of 05:28, 16 June 2006 Nscheffey ← Older edit, Revision as of 22:34, 6 July 2006 Centrx --Philip Baird Shearer 12:44, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand the maintenance problem which you refer to. Could you please this link count thing? -Freekee 01:28, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see that this would be a significant problem, and the quality of the encyclopedia and its usefulness to readers should be sacrificed for this rare back-end issue. —Centrx→talk • 01:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Redlinks

I'd like to see guidance on redlinks here. - Stephanie Daugherty (Triona) - Talk - Comment - 07:58, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I am curious about this as well - Should an article have red links (with the hope that some one might create an article off it) or should you remove thos links? Markco1 05:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I think, it depends. See Wikipedia:Notability. -- by PTNFromm 18:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Numbered links and footnotes

An increasing number of articles are using automatically numbered footnotes to cite references. This practice is apparently being encouraged, because it is especially prevalent in Featured articles. In my opinion, inline numbered external links (such as [http://www.blahblah.org], which displays inline as [1]) should not be used in an article with footnotes. Having two overlapping number series (inline footnote calls numbered 1–x and inline external links numbered 1–y) is confusing and also ugly. In my opinion, the better practice in an article with footnotes is to put external links in footnotes with a descriptive title, such as: <ref>[http://www.blahblan.org Blather]</ref>, which displays inline as and in the Notes section as shown below. What do others think? Finell (Talk) 06:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Notes

Piped links with phrases instead of variations on the name of the target

I'm seeing more and more links of a new type. Instead of having the link reflect the name of the article, it's a verb phrase or something. For instance, the article Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki has the link: considered very inefficient' which is just horrible and could be replaced by: considered to have a low efficiency (or something similar). This links to the same section on weapon efficiency. I think too much was put into the talk archive, as this page is really small now. I still stand by my comments about multiple, directly adjacent links. They're real ugly and clumsy because you don't know what you're getting, if it's one link or many, by simply reading an article without moving the mouse over every link. It spoils all multiple-word links that way. Usually this form is unnecessary and one of the links amounts to a sort of dictionary-definition link. It's a scourge on the whole enterprise if you ask me. --Howdybob 14:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Possible addition to the instructions for creating links

I am not sure about the form for suggesting this so I am posting it here. I have been working away at fixing the links in filmographies and award pages over the last few months and I would like to recommend that we try to teach wiki editors to check and make sure that the link that they create goes to the wikipage that they mean it to go to (I would have typed this in all caps but I know that that is considered rude).

A good example that comes to mind is if an editor is linking The Three Musketeers to an actor who is in it and all they do is create a link around these three words anyone who clicks on that link is taken to the page about the book by Dumas. Then they will click on the disambiguation note (if they haven't given up) and will be taken to a page that lists several of the film versions from over the years. If they have an idea which is the one that they are looking for one final click takes them where they wanted to go originally. In this example it has taken three clicks to do what one should have. My example is for a filmography but the same idea applies to all areas of wikiP.

I suggest that we recommend to editors that are creating links that:

1. They click on the 'Show preview' bar first then
2. Click on the links that they have created and see where they go. If they go where they want then
3. Click on 'Save page'. If they don't
4. Fix them right then so that they do. then
5. Click on 'Save page'

All of the things that need to be typed in like (film) or (1935 film) or (TV series) or changing the link to avoid redirects can be done right then and there. Now I am not trying to get out of the work that I am currently enjoying (more on that below), but, Wikipedia is a powerful and fun learning tool. That power is diminished when links lead to areas that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. Much of what I have mentioned also applies to creating external links but I have found very few of these that went somewhere unintended.

This was my main topic but I do have a further suggestion for anyone that is fixing links the way that I have been. I have found that opening two windows to a page that is being worked on makes this job much easier.

For example today I was fixing the links on Bela Lugosi filmography. I had window number one in the editing mode and number two on the page as it was. I could then click on the links on two, see where they went and if they needed fixing then bring back up number one and fix them right there. If you try to do this on just one window you have to go forward to the linked item and then back to the editing page and this always resets the page being edited to the top (at least in the original editing mode, if you click on 'Preview page' and then go back and forth this doesn't happen) which means a lot of scrolling on a page like the one mentioned.

In this example it was still important to click on the 'Show preview' and check that my corrections went where I wanted them to.

Again my apologies if these are in the wrong place. To anyone who might read these I hope that they are useful suggestions. Also, if I have posted them in the wrong place please feel free to move them to where they might to some good for other editors. MarnetteD | Talk 02:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

One thing I forgot to mention last night. Please, Please, Please tell new editors that when they are copying filmographies from IMDb don't include the roman numerals in dates i.e (1987/I). This is simply a way that they differentiate between two titles, names etc that occurred in the same year. They are meaningless here at wikipedia. MarnetteD | Talk 00:07, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Apparently nobody's opposed to your proposals, MarnetteD. Congratulations!

I'm one of new editors and I accept your first suggestion.

As for your second suggestion, now, I can't confirm the necessity of having the same two windows, unfortunately.

With regard to your third proposal, thank you very much, but what can I do? Here is not the place to explain how to upload images. -- by PTNFromm 19:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I added your first suggestion to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links) on the basis of no opposition to it. -- by PTNFromm 20:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

URL protocol limitation

The protocols are listed at Meta:URI schemes#Current settings. Peahaps this link should be given in the article? Secondly, what is the reason to restrict the protocols; that is, why not just to convert everything in square braces into external link? I was looking on how to insert ed2k links. --Javalenok 19:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

templates and linking in them

I've been editing using the Template:Infobox Writer and a user changed the Website field from the way I had it (example) Official website to [2] citing WP:MOS. I personally think it looks better as official site especially since being in a template, or heck even www.catherinecoulter.com would do but the WP:MOS-L only says However, you should add a descriptive title when an external link is offered in the References, Further reading, or External links section. Is there any policy on this someplace that I'm not seeing? The template itself says nothing about the prefered style of choice. I bring this up here because I don't see it elsewhere and since that's the case perhaps it should also be on here, plus I don't want to get into an edit war. All other authors that I see using the Website field either have Official website or www.catherinecoulter.com so perhaps clarification for templates is needed? Anyway any answers are appreciated. Thanks. --ImmortalGoddezz 01:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

It's been a few days since I posted this and since there haven't been any answers I've went ahead and posted this on the WP:MOS talk page instead. --ImmortalGoddezz 00:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The pages in question are this, this and this. Obviously no problem. Congratulations! -- by PTNFromm 21:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Link once per section

Policy proposal: Link technical terms once per article section. Another editor (AySz88\^-^) and I have been discussing the proper number of links for the same technical term in a technical article. For example, how many times to link invariant mass in a longish article on mass in special relativity? His suggestion is that every time is too many, and I think just ONCE at the beginning is not enough (since it can be missed and have to be searched for). A good compromise seems ONCE per article section. That won't please everyone, but this is an issue where you can't please everyone. Linking EVERY time a phrase appears drives some people bananas with multiple colors per line, and yet I still say that for some articles, once isn't enough. So the logical number is just do it in the first paragraph of any section (or first use of it), so that it's unlikely that anyone reading it the second time won't have run over it the first time, and have it at hand. Again, I'm only suggesting this as a general guideline for technical terms in longish technical articles which use them more than few times. What say you all? SBHarris 01:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

This is already at least mentioned, "These links should be included where it is most likely that a reader would want to follow them elsewhere — for example, in article introductions, the beginnings of new sections..." & "...however, duplicating an important link distant from a previous occurrence is appropriate...". See also [3]. However, it may need to be more explicit or specific. —Centrx→talk • 03:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it needs to be more explicit. Okay, given that the optimal number of links (for the same term) has been already been previously discussed "from both ends" in the context of "not overlinking" and also "Is appropriate to duplicate links for new sections" then, yes, let's make it more explicit in the guidelines. I'll make a first attempt. SBHarris 20:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The proper number of links for the same technical term in a technical article?

I answer, "ALL !" -- by PTNFromm 20:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Titling external links

I was searching this page for naming conventions for external links but found very little. In my opinion, if your article is, say, "Foo History Museum of Foo County", then if you have an official link to the museum, you can put that as the first link and simply call it "Foo History Museum of Foo County". I find it redundant to say "FHMoFC website", or even "Official website of FHMoFC", because I think "official" is overused and sometimes used to legitimize links that are anything but official. When Wikignoming articles I generally change the official link's title to the title of the entity or organization in question, but if at some point someone sees fit to change it back, I leave it that way since it seems to only be my opinion and not codified anywhere. Does anyone know if this has been discussed somewhere? Any thoughts? Thanks! Katr67 18:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Possessive

One thing not mentioned is where the 's goes when the possessive is not part of the name itself. I think the 's belongs outside the link. Compare:

1. William Shatner's toupee
2. William Shatner's toupee

I think the first one is much better, because the 's has nothing to do with the article linked to. On the other hand, Macy's definitely needs the 's on the inside, because the 's is part of the name (as the MoS currently says). - furrykef (Talk at me) 02:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone have an opinion on this? I assume that "Keeping possessive apostrophes inside the link" means go for option 2, but to say it "..makes for more readable text and source" seems incorrect, certainly on the source? Surely [[William Shatner]]'s is more readable than [[William Shatner|William Shatner's]]. --Stormie 06:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Internal links

Would it be good to change: "The use of links to other Wikipedia articles, for example, [[Ant]], is encouraged." into "The use of links to other Wikipedia articles, for example, [[Ant]] (resulting in Ant), is encouraged." Or something to that extent. Or would this only add to the confusion? kabbelen 04:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

It is kind of you to notice and propose such a thing. You are right and it is also clear that there is no objection. I accept your proposal. -- by PTNFromm 20:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I see someone made the change. kabbelen 00:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Underlined links

What's the deal with links being underlined without rollover? I'm not sure where this is/was discussed, but it's really annoying. Sure, there's some merit to the change, and it's a bit more "proper," but it looks like shit on pages with many links (i.e. the home page). Compare the elegant rollover underlines on the menu panel. Anyone know why this was done? Max 15:38, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Amen to that. It took me a while to realise what's making everything look so cluttered all of a sudden. Hardwick 17:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Links Within a Link

Please, can anyone tell me the proper format to create a link within another link? (Or, is this even possible?) For example, let's say that I want the text to read exactly: Arnold (The Governator) Schwarzenegger. What is the proper linking format that would create this exact text so that it links to both the "Arnold Schwarzenegger" article and the "The Governator" article? Please help. Thanks a lot! (JosephASpadaro 05:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC))

Well, you could do Arnold (The Governator) Schwarzenegger as [[Arnold Schwarzenegger|Arnold]] [[(The Governator)]] [[Arnold Schwarzenegger|Schwarzenegger]]. That's a little weird though. Max 16:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, I thought of that -- but it's certainly not an elegant way to achieve what I need. Furthermore, it's not quite accurate to have the text of the person's first name only (e.g., Arnold) link to his full name (e.g., Arnold Schwarzenegger). These types of nicknames happen all the time (e.g., Michael "Air" Jordan, Jesse "The Body" Ventura, etc.). I would think that there is an easy way to accomplish this. Any ideas? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 03:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC))

Dead and red internal links: not abominations, but rather how and where Wiki grows

Policy in a nutshell: A red link is not an emergency and it is not a promise. (It's not a baby that has stopped breathing, and it's not an engagement ring). (This is a proposed policy page, to be summarized in shorter form, as a subsection under "linking") Terms which are given link parentheses, but do not presently link to a wiki, appear in the default user settings, in red. This may have been an unfortunate choice of color, since red to many people signals danger, or something not working, or which needs immediate fixing. This is not necessarily the case with non-working internal (red) links, however! A non-working link does *not* mean that something is wrong in Wikipedia, and despite the color, it actually is NOT begging to be immediately fixed, either by removing the brackets, or by creating a page which expands upon it. These things may be done later. Nature and the Heavens will not cry out if these things are not done immediately. In fact, a good healthy wiki article will probably have a certain amount of nonworking links, so long as wikipedia grows properly. Nonworking links may be perfectly normal things, like twig buds on a plant. They are markers for places where an editor has essentially commented, using brackets, that he or she would like to see a Wiki on this topic, but found that it didn't exist. That's okay. If the editor didn't have the immediate time or knowledge to expand upon a term, the mere marking of interest may stimulate another editor with more time or knowledge or initiative, to begin work on the article at some later date. This is a good thing. In the meantime, it's best if the non-working link is left alone. There is nothing wrong with such links. Editors who are offended by the violent RED color are encouraged to go back to their user settings page and change it for their own reader, so that they themselves can read articles in more peace, and thus leave these variety of links in peace. They are important, (which is to say, in the direction of writing articles on terms-of-interest which don't have them). Editors may notice that some nonworking internal links really are pathological. For example, they may link to words that don't need links because they aren't likely to ever be the topics of Wikipedia articles. But note that links in the preceding sentence-- this is not always easy to figure out. In such cases, though, it's perfectly fine to remove the brackets. Also, editors may notice that a link is not working because somebody has mistakenly included the plural s inside the bracket, or the word is misspelled, or some obvious problem of this sort. Again, these can and should be fixed. Finally, an editor who knows enough about a nonworking link to write a stub on it, can click on it, and start the page by doing it. This is always preferable to removing the brackets on a non-working link, if the link is to a word which will EVER be worth a Wiki. Probably the best of all solutions involves figuring out that the non-working link is actually a variant of a term which already has a wiki, so that the link can either be changed to the existing wiki, or a redirect page can be created (creating a redirect is the better option if the non-working term is a very common but not technically correct one, for example transistor radio battery vs. PP3 battery) What a nonworking internal link is NOT, is a promise, or a deadline. So it need not be treated as an engagement ring, or a notice from the IRS. The person who made it is under no moral obligation to come back and expand it into a stub or article, even if they once intended to. And you, the editor, are under no obligation to watch a non-working link for some period of time, to make sure that somebody eventually "attends" to it, as though it were a parking ticket. Nonworking internal links are not wet babies; unless the nonworking link is a pathological link (see above) there's no particular hurry for anybody to attend to it. And if the color of it is bothering you, again you know what you can do about it. But leave the link itself ALONE. It's serving a purpose and function, like a bud, and what it needs most from you the editor, if you're not going to create the article, is not to be bothered by you, until somebody else can do the job. SBHarris 21:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

This needs to be put through summary style, it's a complete essay written and riddled with personal opinions. Example: "and need to remain if Wikipedia is to grow naturally and in the best way". Quadzilla99 06:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed it because it's essentially an essay which is fine if you want to create one. Or you can add it to WP:RED, I don't feel it belongs here, feel free to comment. Quadzilla99 00:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

You've deleted my essay, but the motto of Wikipedia is don't delete, improve. Clearly something needs to be said about red links in the link style page. Would you like to suggest a place to put a short synopsis of the existing WP:RED in the present article (THIS article), referring to WP:RED as the MAIN article? Then I'll add whatever I propose as missing over there, on the WP:RED TALK page. You see, I didn't even know of the existance of WP:RED, largely because THIS essay on link style doesn't even MENTION it, so far as I can tell. Am I wrong? That needs to be fixed (no?), as well as a summary made of its main points. I see, BTW, that the writers of THAT article have come to many of the same conclusions I have about red links, independently. So, "essay" on proposed policy or not, it looks like I'm on the right track as a lot of other people who've thought about this. Thanks for pointing out where that was happening. But might you have thought to connect the dots yourself, since you knew of the other Wiki, and I (obviously) didn't? SBHarris 05:56, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

You could just cut and paste your essay:[4] and say link it to WP:RED LINKS. You could summarize WP:RED here shortly. I just felt it was a little out of place. Also, although I liked a lot of it, it did read like an essay. As for why there's no mention of WP:RED here that's anybody's guess. Quadzilla99 02:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll do something along your suggested lines. But do remember that although this is an essay, there's a reason for that. NPOV and NOR don't really apply to making wikipedia style policy. It's ALL "opinion," and once upon a time, it was all "original." Like how much linking is too much (10%? who says?). Opinion is how sytle matters start out, and (here's a shocker) that's how they remain. Some opinions and original thought are older than others, of course. However, that's the point of TALK pages like this, to gather concensus OPINIONS. This is all completely different from the rules that must apply to articles on the real world in the mainspace. You see the point? Anyway, it's one reason I'm a little irritated that these suggestions have been here for so long without comment from anybody, but are being tagged as "opinions" when added to the article. But no matter how long we wait, and how many opinions we gather, everything in this article is more or less like that. This is stuff we like, and that we think will make Wikipedia look good. Although perhaps it's not all as exuberantly expressed as I did it. SBHarris 01:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Linking for places with multiple division levels (such as city, province)

I have read a number of articles where placenames are referenced with separate links to the city and state/province. e.g. John Smith was born in [[White Plains, New York|White Plains]], [[New York]]. This construction seems bulky and quite unwikily to me. Is this some sort of standard I don't know about? Am I out of line if I edit these links to [[White Plains, New York]]? Surely readers who want to read about New York state can find a link to it or enter it in the search box. I find myself somewhat of a deletionist with regard to links, particularly those which result in bulky wikitext. MKoltnow 21:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Overlinking

I came here to check the advice about overlinking in order to explain things to another editor, only to find that it had disappeared. The History showed that it had been commented out because of lack of consensus, but I can see no recent (or any) discussion here about most of it, and no indication that there's lack of consensus. I've uncommented it (aside from anything else, it's really irritating to continue editing in line with the MoS, referring to it in editing disputes, and then to find that it's suddenly been radically changed).

Is there any opposition to the section in principle, or to any of the specific parts of it? --Mel Etitis (Talk) 11:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I object to the "More than 10% of the links are to articles that don't exist". If you want to cull pointless red links you could suggest "there are links to articles that are not likely to exist or if they did would have little significance in the context of the article". The 10% suggestion is biased away from niche areas, as it is far more likely that mainstream articles will have blue-linked articles than it is for areas where only a couple of people work. However, in a niche area with many red links, it is easy to game the 10%: I could create some pointless one line stubs to make them blue or I could link some more words in the article to push the ratio down. Aside from that, if more than 10% of the links haven't been created yet, why would I want to choose which 10% of the uncreated articles to link to? All that does is a)mean I have to be checking constantly to see if the unlinked articles have been created so I can add the link, whereas if I'd linked it earlier that connection would be made automatically and b)cut the chance of a new article being linked to all the pages where it is relevant (the creator of every new article can't be expected to know all the other topics that might have a connection to it and dutifully travel round adding in the links). Yomangani^talk 23:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with Yomangani, and on the whole, I object to the current "overlinking" and "underlinking" section. I have to say, "The current overlinking and underlinking section seems to have been only increasing meaningless histories(pages). It is clear that some editors just want to have the reason to unlink, though it is obvious that unlinking only makes the editors who make the links unpleasant and cannot help anybody." -- by PTNFromm

• To begin with, there cannot be found any objective and logical reason why the current overlinking and underlinking section was created. There are only subjective(personal) feelings. Therefore, it is clear that there can't have been any reasonable Wikipedia:Consensus to be respected. I guess, many people felt it's too ridiculous to say something reasonable, and left to avoid losing their time. As for other reasons why I object to the "overlinking ..." section, please see my logics in #Overlinking: guideline "more links than lines" and #Overlinking and primary links. -- by PTNFromm 07:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Authoritativeness of non English sites

I added a clause mentioning that non English sites are acceptable if they provide an authoritative information. I'm thinking, for instance, of legal matters: if we discuss a law of country X, then we should always have a link to the original version of the law in the language of that country, for there is usually no authoritative translation. David.Monniaux 06:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you in principle, but I have four questions.

• What kind of information is "authoritative"?
• Who and how determine whether this site has been presenting an "authoritative" information?
• Is an "authoritative" information always reliable as the truth?
• Is an "authoritative" information always reasonable as the truth?

Today, since 19c. at latest, for example, neither political authorities nor religious ones are blindly believed that they are "authoritative" enough to be blindly believed. "Authority" and "Authoritative" just means the social position. Therefore, I think, "reasonable" is better than "authoritative". After all, Good job ! Is there any opinion? Objection? -- by PTNFromm 06:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Overlinking and primary links

Perhaps it should be explicitly mentioned that primary links to resources should not be avoided because of concerns about overlinking. With primary links I mean for example the main link to an album in an artist's discography, or the primary link to a track in an album track listing, even if those resources have been linked earlier in the article. This is being discussed at WT:ALBUM#Linking track names in track listing. My interpretation of this guideline is that linking them is fine, as long as the links are in a separate section, which they will most often be, but it might be worth making this explicit. Opinions?--PEJL 18:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I think, for example, all album titles that could(should) have an article separately should be linked in an artist's article. The more links an article has, the easier it is for a reader to read, click and find. It's clear. I think current overlinking section is nonsense or harmful for ordinary readers and editors. If a reader is color-blind, it is no doubt that current overlinking section is not only merciless but terribly harmful. Therefore, link, link, link as many as possible within your common sense. Objection? -- by PTNFromm 04:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Confusing wikilinks - avoid adjacent links

I'd like to propose a guideline that, in situations where it is felt necessary to put multiple links in proximity, editors take care to avoid making adjacent words part of different links. As an example, these two alternative forms of the same fragment contain the same text and links, but the second is clearer:

• In his findings of fact, U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III wrote...
• In his findings of fact, U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III wrote...

SheffieldSteel 17:25, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and put an example in the section on overlinking. Any problems, you know where to find me :-) SheffieldSteel 21:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

MOSNUM overhaul

In re-organising the structure of MOSNUM, there's a proposal to move the information about the linking of chronological items to here. Does anyone have an opinion on this? Tony 04:31, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

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Couldn't find anything to change ! thisisace 01:01, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Should we suppress the #-prefix on intra-page links?

In HTML, the #-prefix of an INTRA-page link is suppressed. See the (rendered) TOC for example. It seems that in Wiki-markup, this is not so, as the 5th example under Wikipedia:How to edit a page#Links and URLs shows:

[[#Links and URLs]] is a link to another section on the current page.

#Links and URLs is a link to another section on the current page.

Should articles really be speckled with stray #'s before certain words and phrases (that link to matching headings) ?, or should we all work together to manually suppress them with pipes (by duplicating the word or entire phrase, thereafter) ?

Any thoughts?

4.232.54.35 06:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

• They can always be piped; many of them, in articles, should be piped with above or below. I find that I mostly use this feature on talk pages, where the # is helpful information that I am linking within the page, not beyond it. Is an extra step for the interpreter worth it? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Lone years

Would editors be able to clarify the guidance regarding the linking of lone years. And debate between myself and another editor (see my TalkPage for details, under "Dates of birth etc"). I think the MoS is quite clear that lone years are not linked. User:BrownHairedGirl argues that the MoS does not say this. She believes that when in sentence saying Ruth Dalton's husband was given a life peerage in 1960, it is relevant to link 1960 to 1960 in the United Kingdom, because 1960 is two years after the Life Peerages Act 1958 creating life peerages. That to me is linking for the sake of it. There are other examples on Ruth Dalton's page where BrownHairedGirl has done this, linking other lone years (and she only did this after I removed all the links in the first place and pointed out the MoS). I believe that this totally unnecessary over-linking which the MoS clearly forbides. Could other editors settle this. Much appreciated. --UpDown 17:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Could I just point out that:

• WP:MOSLINKS is a guideline, not a policy;
• That in any case WP:MOSLINKS#Overlinking_and_underlinking:_what.27s_the_best_ratio.3F does not "clearly forbid" that sort of link, just notes that it should be used sparingly and only where relevant, problematising articles where "low added-value items are linked without reason". Phrases such as "without reason" and "low-value" are not blanket bans, they are criteria for assessment.

We could have a useful discussion about how much value there is in the links concerned, but I do object to relative concepts such as "low value" being interpreted as absolute, and to "without reason" being intrpreted as "there is never an acceptable reason to do this". These are judgement calls, not breaches of a hard-and fast rule such as WP:MOSDATE's ban on writing a date as 26th February 1999. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

It is generally undesirable to link lone years. Piping, as mentioned above, is possible, but carries the significant disadvantage that your readers are unlikely to hit a (seemingly useless) year-link, and thus will not know that there's a focused destination embedded in the link. Tony 11:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It may be worth including a recommendation that piped links of this kind include several words (in 1960 here). If they are clearly longer than article title would be, an experienced reader will suspect they are piped. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:48, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Editing problem

I am editing the entire page because the edit link on the section above goes to the no such section problem page. Is anyone else having problems? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:48, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The software is consistently having the edit tags edit one section below where they are placed. This sometimes happens with a repeated section title, but I don't see one. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Links in quotations

Former text:

Words in quotations should not be linked for context. The text should remain in the same form and with the same emphasis as it did in the source. This is especially true for linking dates which, if linked, are changed according to readers’ date preferences.

I strongly object to the absolute prohibition of links in quotations, while agreeing that we should be very careful. The following quote seems perfectly harmless:

"Whether a little farmer from South Carolina named Tillman is going to rule the Democrat Party in America - yet it is this, and not output, on which the proximate value of silver depends."

• Not explaining Tillman at all leaves the reader uninformed.
• Adding a bracketed [Ben Tillman] is difficult to link, given how the software works, and changes the flow of the quotation at least as much as the link.
• A footnote would change the flow too, and is less helpful than a wikilink.
• The quotation is from 1890, well before wikilinks.
• The subject being discussed is, as it happens, the phrase "Democrat party", not Tillman at all.

This is encouragement of bad writing, like some other provisions of the MOS; by the same reasoning, we would not be able to add italics, even when helpful to the reader and clearly indicated. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:48, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I favor a slightly stronger wording, between your "extreme caution" and the original "should not":

In general, do not include links in quotations. Links can alter the form or emphasis of the original. Dates should never be linked; if linked, they are changed according to readers’ date preferences. Linking is often preferable to footnotes or bracketed text to give context; exercise caution when adding such links.

That's not very polished -- can someone else suggest a wording?

CRGreathouse (t | c) 13:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Mandy, you're at it again, launching in unilaterally and changing policy text before achieving consensus. You know very well that editors disagreed with your in-principle similar proposal at MOSNUM, so you're trying to pull a swifty here. It won't work. I'm happy with the text as it is. Tony 14:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you know I disagreed with your guideline change, and explained why. This is a long-standing guideline; don't change it without consensus. I oppose your change. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)