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Some reading

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I’ll just leave these right here 

 Works by a scholar and professor of social (applied) linguistics at Suwon University in Republic of Korea.
 His work is a worthy addition to your reference list.
 As for the source, it would likely correspond to the following.
 * The piece of work itself (the article, book)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phoepsilonix (talk • contribs) 08:06, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mileasel (talk) 17:47, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And you want to use this as source for the article or what exactly? Trade (talk) 17:50, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where in the 13 sentences written about Yasuke is he referred to as a samurai? Mileasel (talk) 17:55, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please take a look at WP:RS before encouraging editors to read 'The Bogus Story of Yasuke & "wokeness" revisionist history'. Guinsardrhineford0079 (talk) 00:25, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorta weird how two accounts that are three years old with no edits come out of nowhere to edit about this self published book by a lonely redditor. Weird. 12.75.41.48 (talk) 03:10, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. It's strange that he suddenly turned into this after being silent for several years.
However, his books will be published not only in Japanese but also in English and Korean by the official publisher.
In his last self-published book, he had no production budget, so the text was not proofread properly, but this time, he says that he will use the money he made from self-publishing to hire a professional and make it more solid.
https://x.com/Goryodynasty/status/1850871797136425314 110.131.150.214 (talk) 14:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It seems that the English version of his book has been published by an official publisher.
It's a company that specializes in academic books, and all of their books are peer-reviewed by professors and experts.
From today on, the book you derided as self-published and no one wanted to look at is a much more reliable source of information than Thomas Lockley's non-peer-reviewed book.
https://x.com/Goryodynasty/status/1851994356305244506
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1763781100
https://unitedscholarsacademicpress.com/ 140.227.46.9 (talk) 04:12, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A few points:
1. https://unitedscholarsacademicpress.com/books
The publisher still lists it as 'under review'
2. The author is not a historian and unlike Lockley (who is attributed to on the page when his claims are made) his field of research is significantly further away from historical research (Linguistics) and again unlike Lockley seems to not even be focused on Japanese linguistics. If the book does get reviewed I would still say that at best the findings should be directly attributed to him. Relm (talk) 16:39, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lockley is not a historian. 211.36.141.248 (talk) 11:47, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Badly Translated Quote

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The quote following quote seems to be machine translated from Japanese to English. The original is in Portuguese, the Japanese translation made be old.

"A black man whom the visitor [Valignano] sent to Nobunaga went to the house of Nobunaga's son after his death and was fighting for quite a long time, when a vassal of Akechi approached him and said, "Do not be afraid, give me that sword", so he gave him the sword. The vassal asked Akechi what should be done with the black man, and he said, "A black slave is an animal (bestial) and knows nothing, nor is he Japanese, so do not kill him, and place him in the custody at the cathedral of Padre in India"

The most obvious error is the use of India, presumably to translate southern barbarian. However, "black slave" might also be wrong, if it is a translation of "cafre". Does anyone know of a better translation that is available? Tinynanorobots (talk) 09:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was a lot of discussion around the word 'cafre' a few months ago around july/august, I'd suggest checking for it in the archives. Relm (talk) 16:15, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If a quote is not reported by a reliable secondary source, we should simply remove it from the article. It is likely to be neither accurate nor significant (WP:V and WP:NPOV). Removing it also makes the article more readable. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:57, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is from the Huffington Post in Japan. Interestingly, the Huffington Post uses "black slave" every time to translate "cafre" however, the Wikipedia article uses black man in all but one instance. I found the letter in the original Portuguese, and it uses India, so that is actually correct (although cathedral might not be). I think that just removing it is probably better. There is already a summary of the events in the article, so it is redundant. Tinynanorobots (talk) 17:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the Honno-ji section contains some misleading sentences. but I only point out one here
"...and not bound by the samurai code of honour." this the-samurai-code-of-honour does not show in the two of the cited sources, it is just someone's imagination.
so I thought showing hos actually stated in the original source(JapaneseToEnglish translated version) was better.
a bit late on commenting below but anyway.
As mentioned, the missionary's letter said "igreja dos padres da India" which would literally translate to "the church of missionarys of India" which thought to mean the Nanban-ji temple, the temple of foreigners at the time basically. sorry for rough explanation. so yes, the word India is not a mistake but was expressed and understood differently in old times perhaps.
and the original text only used word "Cafre" for "Black people" and was translated to Japanese as "黒奴" by Japanese historians for this section of the letter, which pretty much means "black slave" and the cited sources does not seperately use words "black slaves" and "black people" ,it only uses "黒人奴隷" which is "black slave".
so what is discussed here was just how Wiki users modified the source. KeiTakahashi999 (talk) 02:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The source quote is "Mitsuhide suggested that because Yasuke wasn’t Japanese, his life should be spared; he was not expected to perform seppuku as had Nobutada and the other defeated samurai" which is where bushido came from. Since the exact term isn't used I think it's fine to match the secondary sourcing more explicitly. Also, cafre does not mean "slave". Symphony Regalia (talk) 19:31, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cartas de Evora
https://sleepcratic-republic.hatenablog.com/entry/2024/07/30/225016#%E4%BA%AC%E9%83%BD%E7%99%BA%E3%82%AB%E3%83%AA%E3%83%A8%E3%83%B3%E5%A0%B1%E5%91%8ACarrions-report-about-the-honnoji-incident 110.131.150.214 (talk) 14:20, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to be sure, can you read Portuguese?
If you can, please read the page on the left of this document.
If you see a document that someone has translated and you don't like what you see, you're probably wondering if it's a lie. Just read the original.
https://digitalis-dsp.uc.pt/bg5/UCBG-VT-18-9-17_18/UCBG-VT-18-9-17_18_item1/P744.html 110.131.150.214 (talk) 15:01, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am aware of this web site of the original manuscript and I have tried reading it.
But to inline with how the wikipedia article should be treated,
this true original manuscript, I think is not really the source to dig into, for it is the primary source plus is very difficult just even to read to anyone as you can see.
We do already have translated version of those texts in Japanese by professionals and I do not really doubt its accuracy for the main grasp of the content.
I do not intend to be offensive in any racial way of course. KeiTakahashi999 (talk) 15:32, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The two relevant archives which discus Cafre and Kurobo are here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Yasuke/Archive_5#Another_source_not_yet_mentioned
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Yasuke/Archive_2#Yasuke_mentioned_by_Portuguese
Additionally, not mentioned in either is this entry in Nippo Jisho: (link)
>Curobô • Cafre. Ou homem negro.
>Curobô • Kafre. Or black man.
This entry on it's own implies that「黒奴」is an accurate translation of "Cafre" however see the other sources in the archives for other relevant sources.
J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 13:59, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
thanks for sharing info.
the words "黒坊","黒奴", and "黒人" are different in its nuance.
the relatively older Japanese translation (by Murakami namingly) had used "黒奴" which had meaning of slave.
the site suggested above : https://sleepcratic-republic.hatenablog.com/entry/2024/07/30/225016#%E4%BA%AC%E9%83%BD%E7%99%BA%E3%82%AB%E3%83%AA%E3%83%A8%E3%83%B3%E5%A0%B1%E5%91%8ACarrions-report-about-the-honnoji-incident
introduces the translation by Matsuda which uses more neutral word of "黒人" which mean black person.
the word "黒坊" is not used in these translations discussed, but i have seen it used in different manuscript.
So how to translate the word "Cafre" of original Portuguese text was up to the translator at the time, and they had their knowledge and reasons. 2001:F74:8C00:2200:C2C9:0:0:1002 (talk) 14:43, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are correct, thanks for pointing that out. I had found this entry a few months ago after the last discussion about "cafre" and "kokudo" was already archived and I think I mixed up its relevance since it's been a while since I looked at this. I mainly meant to just point to the previous archives that were mentioned. If I remember correctly, this article said that "cafre" in Portuguese mainly referred to Africans in general, and does not necessarily imply "salve." I guess the entry in Nippo Jisho would seem to support that claim, which was perhaps my original intention when I first saw this entry, although I don't really remember anymore. I may try to look at this again later but I likely will not as I just wanted to link to those two archives. Thanks again for pointing that out. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 16:36, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The term Cafre is in India and Southafrica an insult to black people, because it is implied with it a clear connection to slavery, similar to the N-word. I will add, that it is now euphemistically addressed as the K-word in South African English. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term) While there were theoretical and speculative remarks of freed Africans in India, who were still called by this term, who were once slaves in India, it should be highlighted, that in the time of these Portuguese writings by the Jesuits about Yasuke, the Jesuit branch in India was a strong supporter of the Asian slave trade, the Portuguese dominated the slave trade in Asia in these times and they brought the Africans to Asia as slaves and used them in their daily lives in India and their travels.
"Once the slaves arrived in Acapulco, they were categorized as either blacks (negros), also called cafres, or chinos.3"
(3 The word cafre stemmed from the Portuguese cáfer, which in turn derived from the Arabic kāfir for pagan. It was used to refer to black slaves from all parts of Africa.)
https://brill.com/display/book/edcoll/9789004346611/BP000055.xml
It is quite an oblivious racial view of the source, written by Jesuit Portuguese about Yasuke, that they name him in not a single instant by a name themself. Even the term Yasuke is only mentioned once as a name given by the Japanese to him and afterward they still call him just by this slave-term. They never use a term for a black person (N-word) for him.
I will add, that this remark about this capture of him is not from a Japanese work, but from the Portuguese Jesuit reports. There were not a lot of sources for this incident, the japanese sources quote the court women, who were not killed, while all retainers from Oda were killed.....apparently not Yasuke, because he is a cafre. --ErikWar19 (talk) 21:18, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is hard to tell how much to read into the fact that the Jesuits didn't use his name in the letters. They probably wouldn't have used the name for a white servant, either, especially since the recipient of the letter might not have known Yasuke's name. One should probably read all the letters and look for patterns. It does seem that most experts believe that Yasuke was a slave at some point in his life. Although, the relationship between Jesuits and slavery is complicated. The Jesuits were made legal distinctions between different types of servitude that are sometimes lumped together as slavery in modern literature, and the different Asian cultures had different forms of bondage that influenced the legal aspects of the Asian slave trade as conducted by the Portuguese.
The letter calling Yasuke bestial is in fact from the Jesuits, so we don't know how accurate it is to what Akechi actually said. Historians tend to ignore the "he knew nothing" line and interpret it as Akechi being racist. They defend Akechi by suggesting other reasons to spare Yasuke or call Akechi out for being racist. I am not actually sure if Yasuke being spared relates to any legal code or custom at the time. I know that Japanese both executed enemies, but also took people as slaves during war. Also, some bushi would change sides. I have, however, no idea how the distinction was made. Tinynanorobots (talk) 14:56, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actual even Lockley argues in a lot of articles with his direct statements, that Yasuke had to be at some point of his live a slave, he just speculates, that he was freed in India....and didn't supplied any prove of this praxis in India by Portuguese.
His prove is simply to point at his actions in Japan, while claiming, that he has to be freed, to become a samurai for the Japanese. But the Japanese nobles had a different view on European slavery and on Africans in general. So it is more likely, that the Portuguese sources could have seen him as a slave, while the Japanese nobles simply used him as a regular servant, partly unaware about the Portuguese slave-status and norms connected to this matter.
Jesuits talked about the legal ground of slavery in Europa and became later actual opponents against slavery over the decades and centuries, but the actual Jesuits in the colonies had different opinions compared to the Indian and later Macau branch of the Jesuits about this matter, it is still more or less oblivious, that the Jesuits in Asia were strong supporters of the argument to allow slavery, they were involved in the profit of it and a lot of them made cruelties in Southamerica and Asia against slaved Natives and Africans. This is simply the state of the Portuguese colonial slave system at these times.
There were some few examples of Jesuits defending the Natives from Slavery in Southamerica...but even these Jesuits supported often the slavery of Africans as a reason to spare the Natives in America. It is simply dangerous to wish away the biggest European slave seller in this time period in Asia or to make up a "freeing slave" position without actual prove, that Portuguese nobles actual freed African slaves in any significant number in India. We shouldn't presume, that he was freed.
Goa was a main hub of Asian slave trade and Goa was the centrum of the Indian branch of the Jesuits. It was common to have multiple "cafres" as nobility in India and even the poor nobles rented slaves for these services in public. The other servants were Indians, you wouldn't use an expensive white servants in India with these cheaper and easily available options. It was daily live in Portuguese India to use Natives and Africans for these lower services and the delegation to Japan started in India.
Additonal in their arrival in Japan, they talk a lot about the commotion by this specific "carrier, who was a cafre", a carrier of luggage. They presented him to Oda to explain the commotion by their arrival and they gave him into service for Oda as a gift, because he likes curiosities and he served for him in the same capacity, like a servant in India to a Portuguese noble. Carrying weapons etc. But this is partly speculative, original research, because we use the original source and not a reliable second hand source.
It would just fit with the actions of Akechi in this incident, that we have here two sides, the Portuguese side seeing him as a slave, while the Japanese side saw in him a commoner servant.
We have from the Jesuits sources, that he was not killed in this incident, like the actual armed retainer or warriors on the scene, but survived and we know, that barely anyone survived this incident...we have even a statement, clearly seeing him as belonging to the Jesuits. This quote is actual even more interesting, because Akechi send him to the "Indian" branch of the Jesuits, but at this time the Jesuits in Japan were already in a specific Chinese branch and the Jesuits in Japan knew this. I read about the theory, that Akechi probably simply didn't knew about this recent change. Than the source must have adopted the quote accurately with the error.
Some people suggested, that the bestial part by Akechi is an attempt of Akechi to spare Yasuke, because he was not an influential or important figure to him and he saw in him a foreigner, so he send him away to his foreigners, but it remains a glaring issue, that an armed warrior in servitude in any higher rank under Oda would have been killed by Akechi, because he was a loyal follower of the lord. He just killed hundreds of Oda's actual retainers on this day in this incident. Not Yasuke. So there has to be a difference between the way, we portray Yasuke and the way the Portuguese or/and Akechi saw Yasuke. I don't say, that we should change the article for this big problem, but we should probably keep these things in the back of our head, while we look at news articles or books about Yasuke. It will warp our understanding of these sources, if we don't know these perspective differences between Portuguese and Japanese views on Yasuke. We could end up hiding Asian slavery in history. --ErikWar19 (talk) 01:54, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alessandro Valignano's title was Visitor of the Mission in India or something like that. Also, I doubt the Jesuit source is an exact quote from Akechi. There probably is enough RS that say that Yasuke was a slave prior to serving Oda, that it would be against NPOV to exclude it. As far as the issue of slavery in Japan. There are some articles on the topic on Academia.com I suggest the work of Romulo Ehalt: https://rg-mpg.academia.edu/R%C3%B4muloEhalt Tinynanorobots (talk) 17:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't actual knew, that it was par tof his title, thx for the info -- ErikWar19 (talk) 20:51, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a misrepresentation of Lockley, who does not agree with that theory[3].
"Some have said that Yasuke was a slave, and Lockley acknowledges the theory but disagrees. “Personally I don’t think he was a slave in any sense of the word, I think he was a free actor,” Lockley said. Symphony Regalia (talk) 19:40, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
except https://www.youtube.com/shorts/36DFUS7erNI?t=11&feature=share
in this video in an Interview of Lockley with The Black Experience Japan he straight up said, that he was a slave. The full interview is linked in the description.
Additional in a webinar this year, he starts the background-page of Yasuke with the information how many Africans were sold under Portuguese rule in the Indian Ocean trade and highlights, that Yasuke was most likely trafficked in this context by them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45ghXdNX4j8 ErikWar19 (talk) 20:49, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That quote is referring to specifically when Yasuke entered Nobunaga's service. Lockley is in the minority here. Several experts say outright that Yasuke was given to Nobunaga as a gift, or that Nobunaga took him. Ehalt, who specializes in Jesuits and slavery in Japan, thought it possible that Yasuke wasn't a slave but also said that most Africans in Portuguese service were slaves. Tinynanorobots (talk) 07:52, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add the original texts about Yasuke to the wiki

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Is there any reason the wiki doesn't include the original texts? We should at the very least have images of the documents for readers to reference. Here are all of the original documents that I am aware of, along with some original translations:

February 23, 1581 - Chronicles of Lord Nobunaga [Original Document - Japanese]

April 14, 1581 - Letter from Luis Frois [Original Document - Portuguese] [Japanese Translation]

October 8, 1581 - Letter from Lorenzo Mesia [Original Document - Portuguese] [Japanese Translation]

May 11, 1582 - Matsudaira Ietada's Diary [Original Document - Japanese]

November 5, 1582 - Luis Frois' report to Jesuit Society [Original Document - Portuguese] [Japanese Translation] HexJK (talk) 15:13, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia largely avoids using primary sources because those require interpretation and analysis, which is not allowed to be done by editors themselves. Hence why Wikipedia primarily uses secondary sources, which themselves do said interpretation and analysis of the primary sources. SilverserenC 06:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I was misunderstood, my intention isn't for editors to interpret or analyze the documents themselves, only to reference them as they're already mentioned. When discussing the report from Luís Fróis, would it not enhance the article to include a photo of the actual report? All five of these documents are the entire existence of Yasuke, so they are of extreme importance to the wiki, at the very least deserving of their own topic/section.
Even the secondary sources referenced throughout the wiki don't source the original documents, so its impossible for readers to find the original documents to examine themselves. Omitting them just seems incredibly dishonest, especially with all of the uncertainty and controversy revolving around these secondary sources. I'd like to at least get some more eyes on this, and if it is still not considered, we will at least have a record of the original documents being rejected as material for the wiki. HexJK (talk) 00:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you want to have a look at wikisource? Tinynanorobots (talk) 07:17, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A bibliography of primary sources with links to the original texts and translations would obviously improve the quality of the article. I have made an attempt to create such a bibliography here: Talk:Yasuke/Primary_sources. At the moment it's just a few notes/links. Editors who have the time and inclination can improve it and eventually add it to the article. Right now, and for various reasons, I'm not available to work on it. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:28, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alaric NAUDÉ denies claims that Yasuke was a samurai

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The book has already been introduced, but I will introduce it again.

THE REAL YASUKE: HISTORY BEYOND THE SAMURAI MYTH
United Scholars Academic Press 2024年 ISBN 9781763781108
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1763781100/
https://unitedscholarsacademicpress.com/

This book was published by a scholar who specializes in linguistics and sociology. Everyone here understands this book as a book that denies the claims of Thomas Lockley, but in fact it uses sociology to introduce the history of Asian culture and explore what kind of person he was. There are multiple versions of the Shinchō Kōki, but there is only one description that states he was given a sword and other items. When examining the content of this description, it is highly likely that it was added later, and when analyzing the name Yasuke, it is difficult to imagine him as a warrior, and other analysis has been done from a linguistic standpoint.

Yasuke (Japanese: 弥助 / 弥介, pronounced [jasɯ̥ke]) was a man of African origin who served as a samurai[2][3][4] to feudal lord Oda Nobunaga between 1581 and 1582, during the Sengoku period, until Nobunaga's death.
This article has the above sentence. There were many opinions that it was impossible to determine whether Yasuke was a samurai or not, but there were no experts who clearly expressed the opposing opinion that Yasuke was not a samurai, so this was the description. Since some experts have come out with opposing opinions, I suggest changing the statement to say there is an objection, like Britannica.

This book was originally self-published, so no one here has paid any attention to it. However, it has recently been republished by an academic publisher that specializes in minor academic works. The content has not changed much except for proofreading. The books from this publisher are peer-reviewed by experts and professors, so they meet the criteria of being a reliable source of information. The book has been republished first in English, with Japanese and Korean versions coming soon.

There are two reasons why the book is currently under review on the official website. First, it has only been released for a few days, and the website has not yet been updated. The second reason is that the Japanese and Korean versions are currently being edited, and these have not yet been published. Only the English version has been published.
There is no dispute that if one writes about this book, the research results and claims should be directly attributed to the author. However, at one point it was claimed that there were no experts who denied that he was a samurai, so I would like to strongly emphasize that now an expert has emerged who clearly denies it.

However, I don't think that's very fair. I think that not only NAUDÉ, but also E. Taylor Atkins, and Jonathan Lopez-Vera should be attributed to their personal opinions. As we all know, there is no document that clearly states that Yasuke was a samurai. If you trace the sources of the book by E. Taylor Atkins and Jonathan Lopez-Vera, you will find sources in Japanese and Portuguese, and you will find that they use the same material as NAUDÉ. Attributing NAUDÉ's writings to personal opinions and accepting E. Taylor Atkins and Jonathan Lopez-Vera as authoritative documents can be called discrimination against Asians. It is not clear from historical materials whether Yasuke was a samurai or not, and there are no documents that suggest this, so all of this is just a historian's personal speculation.

The comment that Japanese is not included in NAUDÉ's language studies is the opinion of someone who has not read the book. It just seems like people who want to reject this book are desperately looking for a reason. This book explains the structure of Japanese names. It is also a bit wrong to say that he is not a historian. Sociology encompasses history. In linguistic studies, words often change due to interactions with surrounding countries and people. History is closely related to linguistics. His research expertise is East Asia, including Japan.
Having to read the Japanese text to confirm the sources is no reason to reject this book. It's simple. The best sources on Yasuke are Japan, where Yasuke was active, and Portugal, who brought him to Japan. If you want to learn American history, you read books about America and the British, who colonized America, right? Even though the history of America and China begins after the War of Independence, it's like looking for primary sources in China about how Britain made America a colony. It is possible to find secondary sources in China, but the content may change depending on the author's interpretation. As mentioned earlier, NAUDÉ uses the same sources as E. Taylor Atkins and Jonathan Lopez-Vera. Or do they want to lead people to believe that Yasuke was a samurai, and therefore only include material that supports this claim, eliminating any opposing views?

The reason there is a story about the slave trade in books about Yasuke is because it is written in African Samurai. The reason why there is a story that the origin of the samurai is not black is because there is a community that claims that the origin of the samurai is black, and they are taking advantage of the debate about whether or not Yasuke is a samurai. Without these circumstances, it would never have been written.

There are books that analyze Japanese history from the perspective of historians, but there are not many that analyze it from the perspective of linguistics or sociology. Not only can it be used to update articles, but it is also very interesting and should definitely be read.

Finally, as to why NAUDÉ goes out of its way to deny African Samurai. There are two main reasons. The first is that many people are still being deceived by this book, which is full of lies and mistakes. The second is that Thomas Lockley has registered both the Japanese and English versions as academic books, not novels. Having published it as an academic book and paper, he must be able to accept not only positive but also negative opinions. Thomas Lockley should not delete his social media accounts and run away just because he has received criticism.
https://researchmap.jp/7000004775/books_etc/15345312?lang=en
https://researchmap.jp/7000004775/books_etc/15345311?lang=en 140.227.46.9 (talk) 05:52, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An introduction to the book's content and the claim that Yasuke is not a samurai.
  • In China, Korea, and Japan, names are written in kanji. In Japan, people have family names and given names. In Japan, other names include childhood names, real name, and nicknames. As for Yasuke, the structure of his name is either that of a low-ranking person, or it is just a childhood name. It is unlikely that he had a position as a samurai. Yasuke's name does not appear in any documents listing the names of Oda clan vassals.
  • Homosexual relations with younger male partners, known as shudo, were common among Japanese warriors at the time, and it is unclear whether Yasuke was involved with Nobunaga.
  • Yasuke was given a wakizashi, not a katana. At the time, a wakizashi was a weapon for self-defense that anyone could carry, so this does not make him a samurai. The content has been exaggerated in order to apply modern thinking. It was not uncommon for Nobunaga to give weapons; he did give weapons to sumo wrestlers he liked.
  • When a person of low rank achieved great things and was promoted to the rank of samurai, he was often given a new name. If he did not have a surname appropriate to his rank, he was given one. Yasuke wasn't like that.
  • Yasuke's language skills are not enough to function as a samurai. It is reasonable to think that by holding Nobunaga's weapon and sitting next to him, he was used to create an atmosphere and give him authority.
  • The English Wikipedia was the first to state that Yasuke was 188cm tall. Other sites such as Britannica reprinted it one after another. The information was fed back to each other, and this became an established theory. The original height is 182cm. In 2017, the English Wikipedia was updated to correct some of the errors, but the major mistakes remained. It was corrected again in 2024, but Britannica and other sources still have the mistake, and academic papers state that Yasuke's height is 188cm. Some people use the story that Yasuke becomes a lord as the basis for the samurai. It is written in Britannica as well. If you read the part before the description in the missionary letter that is the source of the content, you will understand the situation. It is a townspeople's rumor. Various sources, including English Wikipedia and Britannica, are affected by translation errors and feedback loops of incorrect information.
  • The description states that he was 182cm tall, but the exact same phrase appears in various other documents. It is used in Soga Monogatari, Intoku Taiheiki, etc. What they have in common is the expression "big." Ietada probably did not measure his height, but rather used this number to mean "big."
  • Word changes are very important. In the Shinchō Kōki, it says that Yasuke was given a sword and other items, but Yasuke is written as "Kurobo." In other books, it is written as "Kurobozu". Kurobozu means a black monk or a black attendant. Kurobo is thought to be a variation of the word "Kurobozu". When words change, there is a process in which a word is first accepted and spreads, and then part of that word changes, and that is accepted and spreads again. This means that this description of Kurobo was probably written after the word changed and spread.
  • Thomas Lockley states that Shinchō Kōki was published 10 years later, but it is another book based on Shinchō Kōki with many adaptations. This means that he is writing a book without distinguishing between the original and another book. Currently, the English-speaking world believes that the false history written by Thomas Lockley and the content staged to deify Yasuke are the truth.
  • The main reason is that although the content of this book is fiction, it is classified as non-fiction. Additionally, the content was convenient for some thinkers and activists involved in the DEI movement.
  • In the Honnoji Incident, Akechi Mitsuhide killed the other samurai, but captured Yasuke alive. He then released Yasuke. This shows that none of the Oda samurai recognized Yasuke as a samurai, and only recognized him as a rare person who often sat near Nobunaga. There is no record that Yasuke fought bravely alongside Nobunaga in this battle. Yasuke soon surrendered to Akechi Mitsuhide. Considering the honor of a samurai, he would have considered committing seppuku, but he did not do so, and he himself probably had no such consciousness. There is no evidence that Yasuke fled with Nobunaga's head.
140.227.46.9 (talk) 05:58, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
United Scholars Academic Press appears to be a form of pay to publish outfit, with a ton of the usual types of buzzwords on their website. Naudé themselves appears to be a sociolinguistics professor who researches "how to listen" or however one would define the description here on their focus. Nothing to do with history, Japan, or anything remotely related to this topic. Another example of what they've published is this, which...well, I think it speaks for itself. I'm also not sure what theology has to do with their degree or background, but there you go. SilverserenC 06:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And, before you reply, yes, I read what you wrote about how somehow his background is relevant. I just disagree completely since you've given no actual evidence of said relevance. SilverserenC 06:03, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think your accusations are justified. The book seems mostly to have been ignored by other editors. It is not usual for editors to buy and read a book just based on the suggestion of another editor. This particular book doesn't look very good. It seems to have been written relatively fast, and is still self-published. Now there seems to be questions about the publisher. That is an interesting point about Yasuke's height, but the other points either aren't new and a lot of them have been addressed by experts. There is also a lot of uncertainty that goes unacknowledged. For example, do we really know that all the samurai were killed at the Honnoji Incident? We only know that Yasuke was there and survived thanks to Jesuit sources. So there could have been other prisoners. Also, there is a lot of uncertainty about what "samurai" meant at the time. Newer scholarship has questioned the idea that it was limited to high ranking individuals. Since less information is known about lower ranking individuals, it is difficult to make definite statements. The Warring States period is usually interpreted with through the lens of the early Edo period. So there are valid reasons to not be interested in Naude's book. Tinynanorobots (talk) 07:41, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Who said that all the samurai were killed in the Honnoji Incident? It's true that many were killed, but who said that not a single one was left behind? If I remember correctly, no one said that. For example, by chance, Oda Nagamasu fled to a place where no pursuers or fires came, and he escaped safely. For this reason, he was treated as a bad person by the people of the time.
The women and royalty who were in Honnoji and Nijo Palace also managed to escape. Although they were not samurai.
https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1912983/1/28
https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1920322/1/186
https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1041119/1/164
People say it's strange to go out of your way to buy a book, but someone bought a book just for the discussion in this article, right? Kaneko's book. It's not me. I think you're different too. Maybe if you search the archives you'll find it.
Who is ignoring the fact that it has been covered by experts? Why is it that the article states that Yasuke is a samurai based on the writings of E. Taylor Atkins and Jonathan López-Vera, ignoring the opinion that it is not known whether Yasuke is a samurai or not? Oh, you guys also use sources like the Smithsonian. After all, these were written by Westerners who did not know the history of Asia. There is a common thread. You accept books written by Americans and Europeans and opinions that claim Yasuke is a samurai, and reject books written by Asians and opinions that do not recognize Yasuke as a samurai. You may be doing it unconsciously, but you are doing it.
This fuss is actually making Japanese people really angry. The amount of history from this period in Japan is extraordinary, and even if you're not an expert, there are a staggering number of people who are knowledgeable about it. Despite being an amateur, there is a person who found nearly 10 mistakes in the current Britannica article about Yasuke, which you all say is accurate and trustworthy, and sent feedback to the management. Japanese people believe that the Britannica article is also full of mistakes and cannot be trusted at all. As a test, look at the English version of Thomas Lockley's article, then switch to the Japanese version and see what happens.
By the way, the Japanese Wikipedia entry for Yasuke has been thoroughly reworked and is now accurate.

Wikipedia was founded by Larry and was intended to spread truth. But he eventually left it, overrun by activists. Wikipedia editors are obsessed with the mythical Yasuke and have no interest in the historical Yasuke. Therefore, they use every excuse to ignore historical evidence. It is unpleasant that people who are neither historians nor linguists can hijack the true history.
by Alaric NAUDÉ
https://x.com/Goryodynasty/status/1853954111194140718
110.131.150.214 (talk) 12:53, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, you guys don't realize what's wrong with the current Britannica. The person who found it has published it, so I'll let you know. He said, "Britannica makes an obvious mistake and doesn't correct it even if I point it out with sources, so I don't think there's anyone at Britannica who can check it, and there's no one who can correct it." Would you all like to help with feedback? Or maybe study basic Japanese history in order to discuss editing here?
A few additional documents are thought to pertain to Yasuke, such as a letter from Mozambique discovered in 2021 by Oka Mihoko, a professor at the University of Tokyo, but, as the subjects are not directly named, it is possible that they refer to other people.
→false
Oka Mihoko is an associate professor, not a professor. site
Yasuke (born c. 1555, Eastern Africa) was a valet and bodyguard of the Jesuit missionary Alessandro Valignano who rose to become a member of the inner circle of the warlord Oda Nobunaga, Japan’s first “great unifier.”
→false
What we can confirm from historical documents is that he was not an aide, but a servant.
Due to his favor with Nobunaga and presence at his side in at least one battle, Yasuke is commonly held by Japanese historians to be the first recorded “samurai” of foreign birth, although this has been disputed by some people.
→false
Yasuke's status is generally considered to be that of a servant, or it is impossible to determine due to the lack of information, and only a minority think that he is a samurai.
Yasuke was born in Africa, possibly among the Dinka people of what is now South Sudan based on contemporaneous physical descriptions by Ōta and Matsudaira, though some secondary sources from the 17th century suggest the vicinity of modern-day Mozambique.
→Inappropriate
It's just Thomas Lockley's imagination, and it's not something that would be written in an encyclopedia. A location near Mozambique is certainly a possibility, but it remains speculation. Also, the reliability of this information source is relatively low. The name of the document should be listed and the authenticity should be left to the reader.
The researcher Thomas Lockley (the author of this article) speculates that they may have seen him as a form of divine visitor due to the fact that the Buddha and other holy figures were often portrayed as black-skinned in Japan at this time.
→false
In documents from that time, Yasuke is likened to a cow. Thomas Lockley claims in his writings that Nobunaga saw the statue at Kiyomizu-dera, but Kiyomizu-dera at the time was destroyed by fire.
In an unpublished but extant document from about this time, Ōta states that Nobunaga made Yasuke a vassal, giving him a house, servants, a sword, and a stipend.
→Inappropriate
Although it is described as an existing document that has not been published, it is not completely private. It should clearly state the name of the document and state that it is available to those with permission. site
→false
This is clearly a mistake. The documents say he was given three things: a house, a short sword, and a stipend, but no servants. Also, it says he was given a short sword, not a sword. There is only one document that says he was given these, and it is unsubstantiated.
Mexia even reported rumors that Yasuke would be made tonō, or lord, which has been interpreted as meaning that he might have been in line for the bestowal of a fief.
→false
It is an expanded interpretation of Thomas Lockley. This is just a rumor among the townspeople.
He recorded Yasuke’s name and height (6 shaku 2 sun, approximately 6 feet 2 inches [1.88 meters]) and furthermore confirmed that Yasuke had been granted a stipend.
→false
It states that his height was 6 shaku 2 sun (1.88 meters), but this is a mistranslation. It is 6 shaku 2 bu (1.82 meters). This shows that Thomas Lockley either did not see the original text or could not read it. The experts who have read the original text are not wrong.
On the eve of the Honnō-ji Incident of June 21, 1582, Nobunaga was traveling to another major front against the Mori clan in what is now Okayama prefecture with about 30 close followers, one of whom was Yasuke.
→Inappropriate
There are sources that say there were 30 people who accompanied Nobunaga, but there are also documents that say there were up to 100 people. It should be stated that there is a range. It is also good not to give a specific number, but to say that it was a small number.
Early the next morning, the group woke to the smell of smoke and gunshots.
→false
According to a missionary's letter, Nobunaga was washing his face, unaware of the commotion, when he was attacked with a bow and arrow and realized what was going on.
Nobunaga and his entourage, including Yasuke, fought bravely, but when the temple was engulfed in flames, Nobunaga had no choice but to perform seppuku.
→false
Yasuke and the remaining Oda men fought to the last, but their efforts were in vain as they were mercilessly bombarded with volleys of fire from the roof of an adjacent residence.
→false
There is no record that Nobunaga and Yasuke fought together. There is no record that Nobutada and Yasuke fought together. Yasuke headed for Nobutada's location, but it is unclear whether he reached there or was stopped nearby. 110.131.150.214 (talk) 13:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Wikipedia was founded by Larry" are you sure? It was founded by Jimbo. Get your facts right.84.54.70.120 (talk) 14:46, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was cofounded by Larry Sanger. I'm wondering how much Ubisoft is paying editors to keep the Yasuke was a samurai façade going? Seems like a well paid gig as it must be a 24hour job to keep any view other than the "he was a samurai" view that didnt exist before Lockley (and has no record in Japan whatsoever) Also really want to know what the qualifications of the editors here are that are gatekeeping. People like you are the reason nobody trusts wikipedia anymore. 112.184.32.144 (talk) 06:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting situation. Many of the Japanese people who are discussing this are not saying that the statement that Yasuke was a samurai should be deleted because he was not a samurai. They are not denying the possibility that Yasuke was a samurai, but are saying that it is unclear whether Yasuke was a samurai or not. Those who make this claim have actually read and verified the primary and secondary sources from that time before making their case. Even if they are not good at English or Portuguese, they read using various methods such as machine translation.
Most editors who can read Japanese have left, so most of the remaining editors who claim that Yasuke was a samurai are Westerners who cannot read the primary and secondary sources written in Japanese or Portuguese at the time. Because they are unaware of the Japanese customs of the time, they get someone to translate the primary and secondary sources, read the materials arranged in a Western style to make them easier to understand, and finally understand the content and claim that Yasuke was a samurai. It rejects languages other than English and does not try to use machine translation or the like. They also only read materials written by Americans and Europeans, and not by Asians. They refuse to accept the Britannica description, which is open to debate, because they cannot find anyone who denies that Yasuke was not a samurai, and even if someone does appear, they give various reasons to move the goalposts and never accept the description.
It is rare that such a decisive difference can be made simply by being able to read the documents from that time or not, or by having the willingness to try to understand them even by using machine translation. Some of you made the comment that in English, unlike in Japan, the word "samurai" has many different meanings, so don't complain about it. That is a statement made by someone who does not understand the meaning of the word. Just because a soldier served in the British army does not mean that all of those soldiers were given the rank of knight. Given that the word "samurai" sometimes implies nobility, we should be more careful in using it. The problem is that it is used casually in games and fictional senses without considering the historical context. When you continue to receive criticism based on evidence according to history and literature, you guys either shift the point of view or justify it by coming up with convenient media articles. Double standards and cherry-picking are repeated.
I don't think anyone would complain about the description that Yasuke was a retainer of Oda Nobunaga. This is clear from the fact that no one in Japan criticizes Yasuke becoming Nobunaga's retainer in Thomas Lockley's Britannica account. We don't know what level of status he was. Please change "African origin who served as a samurai" to "African origin who served as a retainer."
Next, state that there is too little material on Yasuke for most experts to determine whether Yasuke was a samurai or not, and cite Thomas Lockley, E. Taylor Atkins, and Jonathan Lopez Vera as examples of people who claim that Yasuke was a samurai. And cite Alaric Naudet as an example of those who claim that Yasuke was not a samurai. I'll leave it up to the reader to decide whether Yasuke was a samurai or not. This should be enough to resolve the current controversy.
English Wikipedia is run by America First, and is a world of English-speaking white people, so it's a different story if you want Asian yellow monkeys to leave.
The Japanese version of Wikipedia does not say that there is a debate as to whether or not he is a samurai, but I think that is fine. The Japanese version only writes what is found in reliable documents, and almost eliminates the speculations of scholars. In this case, a reliable source does not mean a media outlet such as CNN, as defined by Wikipedia, but a document that is recognized as historical. Britannica is also excluded. This is a rigorous description, with most of the content written only from primary and secondary sources of the time. It was so thorough that it was not written under the name Matsudaira Ietada, which was only used in formal occasions, but instead written as Matsudaira Tonomonosuke, which was the common name at the time. The volume of content could easily fit on a single A4 page, but this is all we know about Yasuke. 153.235.152.98 (talk) 08:53, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you keep bringing up ethnicity? 181.14.137.165 (talk) 04:28, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because our culture is always taken over by people who dont understand it because they are anti Asian. 211.36.141.248 (talk) 11:47, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Who specifically are you accusing of being anti-Asian? 12.75.41.91 (talk) 16:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the main moderators on this page that dont even speak Japanese but keep using Lockley as a source and also people who base their work on Lockleys work. I just want to know how much they are getting paid by Ubisoft to do it 211.36.141.246 (talk) 23:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can report them at WP:ANI, editors can not accept money for edits. Be careful, if you don't provide evidence you will get blocked. You should stop posting accusations here, because this is a place to suggest edits to this article, not a forum to discuss Yasuke or editors. Continuing to whine without evidence here will be seen as disruptive, and may also lead to a block. 12.75.41.91 (talk) 00:34, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pop Culture "Inspired By"

[edit]

There are a couple of instances listed in the Pop Culture references where fictional black samurai are described as inspired by Yasuke. I removed these, but the removal was challenged, so I would like additional opinions. I think the sources cited are just assuming that the creators were inspired by Yasuke, but also that being inspired by Yasuke is too low a standard for being listed in the article.

- Nagoriyuki in Guilty Gear Strive citing Kotaku. The Kotaku article links to wikipedia. So this might be citeogenesis. I don't think Kotaku is reliable for this claim.

-Afro Samurai, in this case the claim is sourced to CNN, a generally reliable source. However, in a human interest story, that is probably not fact checked. Most importantly, the claim contradicts interviews with Takashi Okazaki, where he describes being inspired by hip hop culture. [4]https://web.archive.org/web/20080129091528/http://www.ugo.com/ugo/html/article/?id=16499 Tinynanorobots (talk) 08:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the sources cited are just assuming that the creators were inspired by Yasuke
This is original research. It is not the role of editors to assume that reliable sources were "just assuming".
The Kotaku article links to wikipedia. So this might be citeogenesis. I don't think Kotaku is reliable for this claim.
The claim in Kotaku about Nagoriyuki is made in the writer's own voice. CNN and Kotaku are both reliable sources by Wikipedia standards.
Most importantly, the claim contradicts interviews with Takashi Okazaki
This does not imply it was his only inspiration. WP:SYNTH is relevant here.
but also that being inspired by Yasuke is too low a standard for being listed in the article
Not at all, especially when these are very notable works. Symphony Regalia (talk) 22:41, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
CNN says Today, Yasuke’s legacy as the world’s first African samurai is well known in Japan, spawning everything from prize-winning children’s books to a manga series titled “Afro Samurai.” Lockley's article in Britannica also says Yasuke has increasingly become the inspiration for fictional characters in novels, plays, works of art, anime, and manga based upon his life story. These include the protagonist of Okazaki Takashi’s Afro Samurai.
I disagree with Tinytinorobots that being inspired by Yasuke is too low a standard for being listed in the article, and I agree with Symphony Regalia that being inspired by hip hop culture is not inconsistent with being inspired by Yasuke (possibly via the 1968 children's book by Kurusu and Genjirō Mita). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:48, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, that settles the question regarding Afro Samurai. Although the quote from Britannica seems to imply that there are parallels between the events in Yasuke's life and that of Afro Samurai, which there isn't. (Afro Samurai takes place in the future, and the protagonist is a wandering duellist). Should the claim be attributed to Lockley?
I think the Kotaku article is not reliable and will start a thread at RSN about it. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you say that all works with black characters are the roots of Yasuke, then that's wrong. If you name a specific work and say that it's related, then there's a chance that you're right. I think it would be good to discuss the names of the works you want to include.
As for "Kurosuke," there is no problem, since the Japanese libraries have even stated that they are involved.
As for "Kurosuke," there is no problem as both the Japanese library and the author have stated that they are involved.
https://crd.ndl.go.jp/reference/entry/index.php?id=1000239775&page=ref_view 153.235.152.98 (talk) 15:39, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Full section regarding the definition of samurai

[edit]

I think we should add a section regarding the definition of samurai used in the article. I think the footnote "Samurai-academic" can stand as its own section with some modification. Current footnote:

Academic sources on Yasuke's samurai status include:

  • Lockley, Thomas (2024-07-16). "Yasuke". Encyclopedia Britannica. Archived from the original on 16 July 2024. Retrieved 2024-07-17. Due to his favor with Nobunaga and presence at his side in at least one battle, Yasuke is commonly held by Japanese historians to be the first recorded "samurai" of foreign birth, although this has been disputed by some people [...] In an unpublished but extant document from about this time, Ōta states that Nobunaga made Yasuke a vassal, giving him a house, servants, a sword, and a stipend. During this period, the definition of samurai was ambiguous, but historians think that this would contemporaneously have been seen as the bestowing of warrior or "samurai" rank.
  • Atkins, E. Taylor (2023). A History of Popular Culture in Japan: From the Seventeenth Century to the Present (2nd ed.). Bloomsbury Academic. p. 72. ISBN 978-1-350-19592-9. Archived from the original on 26 July 2024. Retrieved 26 July 2024. Impressed with Yasuke's height and strength (which "surpassed that of ten men"), Nobunaga gave him a sword signifying bushi status. Yasuke served as Nobunaga's retainer and conversation partner for the last year of the warlord's life, defending Azuchi castle from the traitorous Akechi forces in 1582, where Nobunaga committed ritual suicide (seppuku). Although there are no known portraits of the "African samurai," there are some pictorial depictions of dark-skinned men (in one of which he is sumo wrestling) from the early Edo period that historians speculate could be Yasuke.
  • López-Vera, Jonathan (2020). A History of the Samurai: Legendary Warriors of Japan. Tokyo; Rutland, VT: Tuttle Publishing. pp. 140–141. ISBN 9784805315354. The name given to this black slave was Yasuke (until recently the reason for this was unknown—investigations carried out in Japan not long ago claim his real name was Yasufe) and from then on he always accompanied Nobunaga as a kind of bodyguard. It is worth pointing out that henceforth he was no longer a slave, since he received a salary for being in the daimyō's service and enjoyed the same comforts as other vassals. He was granted the rank of samurai and occasionally even shared a table with Nobunaga himself, a privilege few of his trusted vassals were afforded.

Blockhaj (talk) 19:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is out of scope for this article and any "X term definition" section would undoubtedly result in a lot of WP:OR/WP:SYNTH issues. It would be highly unusual for an article to have a meta section on that discusses its own sourcing in wikitext. Users who are interested in the sources can check them in the References section.
I will also note that there is a closed RfC on this general topic[5]. Symphony Regalia (talk) 23:33, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Symphony Regalia since the article uses an unconventional definition of samurai and currently holds that definition to a footnote, id say it is a good idea to just cover it openly for transparency. The samurai debate is also part of the modern history, since that title has only posthumously been applied to the character, and thus has the right to be covered. Blockhaj (talk) 14:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article doesn't use an unconventional definition; it doesn't define anything at all. It simply reflects the majority view in reliable sources. Wikipedia isn't for editors to perform WP:SYNTH to arbitrarily define terms.
The footnote isn't a definition, it's a citation bundle. Perhaps you are mistaking the quotations in it for editor explanation. The article also contains other citations on his samurai status (TIME, Smithsonian, CNN, etc). Symphony Regalia (talk) 10:40, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yasuke has been criticized in various ways by people who want him to be a samurai, but I think it's not a bad idea to start by defining what a samurai is.
Hirayama received criticism for clearly stating that Yasuke was a samurai, but it quickly died down. The reason he was criticized was because there was no definition of a samurai, and when Hirayama realized this, he created his own definition and redefined a samurai. He appropriated the etymology of the word samurai, which is to stay by the side of the master and watch over him, and defined everything that stays by the side of the master as a samurai. On top of that, it was also effective to clearly reject Thomas Lockley as telling a nonsensical story and state that he had no intention of affirming him.
So, what criteria should we use to define a samurai? This is a difficult question. It was a time when the definition of a samurai was becoming ambiguous, so it is possible that Yasuke, who was a mob character who appeared only briefly in Japan's long history, was a samurai. In the Edo period or the first half of the Muromachi period, he would never have been called a samurai. 153.235.152.98 (talk) 15:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
TIME and CNN are not reliable sources for definitions of historical nomenclature. No historical sources use the term samurai for Yasuke, so giving him this title needs explanation. Afaic, Yasuke was a page/retainer, but this is not covered in the article at all. There is no confirmation that he ever saw combat, just that he visisted battle zones. Blockhaj (talk) 03:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It seems the general opinion among experts is that being a page/retainer for a daimyo is a samurai position. There are some experts who have expressed a lack of certainty about Yasuke's status, partly because one isn't sure how the term samurai was used in the period. Considering that the meaning of samurai seems to create some confusion, it probably wouldn't hurt to add an explanation to the article. SYNTH wouldn't be a problem because a lot of sources give a definition of samurai and talk about Yasuke. Tinynanorobots (talk) 08:17, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is complete tripe. A retainer and a samurai are completely different. Stop pushing Lockley propaganda. Please give your credentials and which experts you are quoting because they certainly arent Japanese. 211.36.141.248 (talk) 11:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid this is going to end up in original research. The sources on Yasuke don't give their definition of samurai, simply saying that Yasuke qualifies as a "samurai" because he was given a stipend, a house and a sword by his lord, served Nobunaga in a military capacity and was in a relatively close relationship with him as a member of his retinue. The article probably says all there is to say about this: According to historians this was the equivalent to "the bestowing of warrior or 'samurai' rank" during this period. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 13:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
which historians? 125.179.119.108 (talk) 13:41, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ye, afaic that statement is flawed. Looking at it, it would be better to refer to him as an armed retainer or something along those lines (there must be a proper term for this?) in the preamble, whith the question of samurai covered in a segment, going through which authors and historians says what. A samurai is specifically a warrior, afaic similar to a housecarl or knight at the time of question, later on being analog to knights, which is something we cannot confirm Yasuke as from the sources, just speculate.
My idea is simply to use template:quote for the definitions given by the authors which we use as samurai reference atm. Ie like:
What to define Yasuke as is a in terms of role is a contested subject. Author Thomas Lockley, who has written a paper and two books on Yasuke, advocates for calling him a samurai:

Due to his favor with Nobunaga and presence at his side in at least one battle, Yasuke is commonly held by Japanese historians to be the first recorded "samurai" of foreign birth, although this has been disputed by some people [...] In an unpublished but extant document from about this time, Ōta states that Nobunaga made Yasuke a vassal, giving him a house, servants, a sword, and a stipend. During this period, the definition of samurai was ambiguous, but historians think that this would contemporaneously have been seen as the bestowing of warrior or "samurai" rank.

— Lockley, Thomas (2024-07-16). "Yasuke". Encyclopedia Britannica.
Etc.
--Blockhaj (talk) 14:39, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A retainer is a Kosho in this case a servant who helps a samurai, they are not a samurai themselves. It would be more honest to say that his role is debated. (Even though it is only debated in the West, in Japan we DO NOT CONSIDER HIM A SAMURAI) 125.179.119.108 (talk) 15:18, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most of Europe doesnt either, this is mainly a US afrocentric issue, as well as a capitlistic one, as various have released media about Yasuke as a true samurai, take the netflix show, the new assassin's creed etc, which earns on the trope and thus has incitement to keep it as fact etc. There is nothing wrong with the theory alone, but since it is just speculation even from the top sources, it should not be portrayed as the default. Blockhaj (talk) 16:07, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
completely agree. Unfortunately this page is protected by people paid to keep unhistorical claims alive. To allow neutral or both sides presented will make Ubisoft angry so they wont get paid. 125.179.119.108 (talk) 16:21, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOTFORUM Please suggest changes to this article, with sources. This isn't a forum to express nationalistic rage. 12.75.41.91 (talk) 16:23, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you source any of this comment? If not, you are getting off topic. Please see WP:NOTFORUM. The talk page isn't a place to discuss your feelings. The indenting makes it hard to read, but this is a reply to Blockhaj. 12.75.41.91 (talk) 16:25, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To 12.75.41.91. Decorative quotation marks have been dissabled in mainspace for some reason, so maybe it is better to put quotes in italics for readability?
What to define Yasuke as is a in terms of role is a contested subject. Author Thomas Lockley, who has written a paper and two books on Yasuke, advocates for calling him a samurai:

Due to his favor with Nobunaga and presence at his side in at least one battle, Yasuke is commonly held by Japanese historians to be the first recorded "samurai" of foreign birth, although this has been disputed by some people [...] In an unpublished but extant document from about this time, Ōta states that Nobunaga made Yasuke a vassal, giving him a house, servants, a sword, and a stipend. During this period, the definition of samurai was ambiguous, but historians think that this would contemporaneously have been seen as the bestowing of warrior or "samurai" rank.

— Lockley, Thomas (2024-07-16). "Yasuke". Encyclopedia Britannica.
--Blockhaj (talk) 16:59, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A retainer in English is a generic term for a type of employment. Yasuke received a stipend, therefore he was a retainer (that is a bit over simplified). A few Japanese historians have called him a samurai or said that he was treated as a samurai. Some historians, both western and Japanese have said that it isn't certain that he is a samurai. Thomas Conlan has recently pointed out that the meaning of samurai is unclear in this period, and that a clear distinction between samurai and commoners wasn't made till the speratation edict.It has been suggested by one historian, that Yasuke was a lord's attendant. It is similar to a page, but pages are usually younger. However, it was also a job for bushi. If you want to change the article you need reliable sources, not just accusing people holding other opinions of having a COI or being western or afrocentric. Unfounded accusations made lead to sanctions. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:27, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sources, do you have them? If not, try reddit for open ended conversation. 12.75.41.91 (talk) 16:35, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The thing is that no primary sources describe him as samurai specifically and we lack conclusive details to what his actual employment would have been called, thus any "role" attributed is speculative, and we should strive for a descriptive preamble rather than spewing popular speculations as fact. Retainer is imo preferred over samurai due to its generic definition and harmless meaning, but it is also not ideal, in the same manner as calling Buffalo Bill a warrior.
I sorta like attendant: Yasuke was a man of African origin who was a stipended attendant under feudal lord Oda Nobunaga... But it is also probelamtic as the definition of an attendant is all over the place and doesnt really signify what Yasuke was. Blockhaj (talk) 17:15, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Replying to Gitz. I think it is premature to dismiss a proposed change as OR, until we have heard it. Of course, a definition of samurai would be difficult, as it is described by vague. Lockley even said in an interview that no one knows exactly what a samurai was during Yasuke's time. Lopez uses the term as a generic word for a Japanese warrior. How the article now is explains it is not ideal. Receiving a house and a sword didn't make Yasuke a samurai. Rather both are seen as clues to his rank. The sword was probably just a gift, but the fact that he owned a sword is indicative of his status as a fighting man. The house also indicates that he has a higher rank than servants that lived in barracks or the house of their masters. Not every samurai was given a sword and a house etc. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If Lockley has stated that "no one knows exactly what a samurai was during Yasuke's time" then his source becomes kinda hypocritical (i mean, it was not really neutral to begin with). You got the source?
If even the "experts" say we can't define a period samurai, then we should not apply that term to someone which is not specifically described as such in historical sources. Blockhaj (talk) 17:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The more i think about it, we should just write:
Yasuke was a man of African origin served under feudal lord Oda Nobunaga between 1581 and 1582, during the Sengoku period, until Nobunaga's death. Inititally given to Nobunaga as a slave, his role under Nobunaga is unknown, but historical sources state that he was granted a sword, a house and a stipend, indicating that he had a higher rank than servants.
Blockhaj (talk) 17:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are a few issues with this suggestion. One is that there was a RfC to depict Yasuke as a samurai. In order to change consensus, a more convincing argument is needed. Second, wikipedia prefers secondary to primary sources. Most people that we call samurai aren't recorded as samurai by historical documents. This is part of the reason why in academic works and in Japan, these figures are often called bushi or warrior (the sources called academic in the article are written by academics, but are targeted at the public). I have some sources, but I don't have time today to collect them all. Tinynanorobots (talk) 17:44, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That RfC was literally stated to be a trainwreck and biased. Popular vote, ie factoids, is not what we should strive for in this case. As for historical figures not literally called samurai yet defined as such later, it is less problematic if there are sources indicating that they actually were professional warriors. The same thing with Vikings; if they fit the description, we call em Viking today. With Yasuke, all we have to go on is that he got a sword, house and stipend, served under a warlord like Nobunaga and visited at least one combat zone. That is not enough to make a statement about warrior class.
The RfC should be torn up and reevaluated from a point of neutrality, only from seasoned editors. Blockhaj (talk) 18:24, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you are referring to the first RFC can you clarify who and where it was stated to be a trainwreck and biased? It was taken to ANI where the exact opposite view was held by the commenters who looked it over. (link)
The second RFC which attempted to re-litigate that RFC and how it was being employed is the RFC where the close stated it was a mess.
The details contained in the Shincho Koki manuscript, as interpreted by the expert secondary sources Wikipedia is built on, suggest that Yasuke held the status of a Samurai (as defined by those experts) if the manuscript is genuine. Relm (talk) 21:41, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Once again which experts? Not Japanese experts except for one with extremist views who is related to Lockley. Show Japanese sources! 211.36.141.246 (talk) 23:06, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please see WP:NATIONALISM. Whether the scholar is Japanese or not has no bearing on their reliability. The only new dissenting voice being proposed on this talk page (Alaric Naude) is not an expert and not published through a publisher which would lend their claims credence. Several Japanese sources have been discussed on the talk pages (several for and against, though notably the 'against' category did so through offering doubt as to the legitimacy of the manuscript).
If you have reliable sources, Japanese or not, please feel free to post them. Relm (talk) 00:23, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bushi and samurai are not the same.Being Bushi does NOT make a person a samurai 211.36.141.246 (talk) 23:07, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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