Requests for arbitration

Request name	Motions	Initiated	Votes
Wikipediocracy-related conduct		21 October 2024	0/0/0

[edit]

Open cases

Case name	Links	Evidence due	Prop. Dec. due
Backlash to diversity and inclusion	(t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t)	10 Oct 2024	24 Oct 2024

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Recently closed cases (Past cases)

Case name	Closed
Historical elections	13 Sep 2024

Clarification and Amendment requests

Request name	Motions	Case	Posted
Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral)	Motion	(orig. case)	17 August 2024

Arbitrator motions

No arbitrator motions are currently open.

Wikipediocracy-related conduct

Initiated by Sincerely, Dilettante at 19:07, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed parties

Dilettante (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
Lightburst (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Just Step Sideways (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Homeostasis07 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
AndyTheGrump (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Silver seren (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
TarnishedPath (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Carrite (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Yngvadottir (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by Dilettante

This case is the result of periodic argument between 'pro-' and 'anti-WPO' factions, particularly in relation to Lightburst's edits that have escalated to the point that the very mention of WPO can derail a discussion. Though the closer of the most recent ANI recommended against an arbcom case yet, the only sanction with consensus was a WP:VEXBYSTERANG and does not address the root problem, or, if such exists, the root users at fault. ANI is not meant to handle cases of alleged off-wiki misconduct, nor has it dealt with on-wiki PAs against Wikipediocrats e.g. [1]

Most of my evidence is off-wiki or relies on a combination of on- and off-wiki posts so I'll email that later today. Additionally, I have evidence against someone— who is not listed as a party due to filing limits and lack of on-wiki evidence—which I believe should warrant an indef, if not a ban.

Daniel To be clear, I think your close was fine and accurately assessed consensus. Sincerely, Dilettante 21:16, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AndytheGrump. Sorry about that! I probably leaned too much into drafting several emails to arbcom with more context and failed to make this case request clear—at least in part because it's common for arbcom to alter or expand the scope.

WPO is not the crux of the public discussion (private, I have no idea, not knowing who will submit evidence and what specific links there'll be). The focus is that several users of the pro- and anti- faction have repeatedly argued in uncivil manner. Some of this happened on-wiki, some off-wiki, but ANI has yet to solve the issue.

I will state my request is related to a few key topics that cannot currently be resolved without a shitstorm of an RFC:

To what extent, if any, should posts on WPO be considered canvassing? (in relation to the Bent's Camp discussion, Daniel's recent close, and other discussions) What about if they use language that is blatantly biased when compared to the neutral Template:Please see?
To what extent, if any, is positively interacting (via publicly connected accounts) with Wikipedia-related posts that would be revdelled or oversighted if on-wiki, acceptable?

I am almost certain these won't be fully clarified by arbcom if this is accepted, but it would hopefully clear the air and allow for non-toxic discourse at a later date. Sincerely, Dilettante 23:00, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Swatjester The focus is that several users of the pro- and anti- faction have repeatedly argued in uncivil manner. I don't expect arbcom to do anything about the existence of WPO nor to ban people from publicly using both websites (and I wouldn't want that obviously!). Sincerely, Dilettante 23:23, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TarnishedPath. The main part of the public case request is certainly whether editors in the 'anti' faction, in particular Lightburst, have behaved appropriately. However, in the 'pro' faction AndyTheGrump's conduct was previously less than stellar (you'll notice I opposed sanctions) and I will do some digging to see if such conduct has continued in discussions that have been mentioned on WPO. Sincerely, Dilettante 15:42, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AndyTheGrump, I'm not going to lie and pretend I haven't been keeping track of the off-wiki thread. If you'd like to request that the list be extended, request it. I'm certainly not opposed to a change in scope though I obviously can't speak for arbcom. Sincerely, Dilettante 15:56, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TarnishedPath, I included you because one of the key discussions around this case has your name in it and, to a lesser extent, since Lightburst included you in his dicklist. I don't believe that you deserve any sanction or warning, but I do think you became a target of LB's ire and thus wrapped up in this affair. Sincerely, Dilettante 02:59, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Lightburst

Statement by Just Step Sideways

Well, here we are at last. The idea of a case has been being increasingly discussed at the various extremely long threads where this issue has been festering. That last one is on me, but in my mind I was just reporting trolling and expected a quick block for such, but instead... well.. you can see what happened instead.

It is not entirely clear to me what the scope of such a case would be, but I do think the list of prior discussions above shows we have a fairly intractible problem here, and review of those discussions will certainly show some users making utterly bizzare claims and accusations, and if we look at the closing admin of the most recent ANI's talk page, you will also see a user calling for comments from anyone perveived to be "from WPO" to be discounted entirely[2].To his credit, Daniel immidiately replied that he did not do so and stated I did not disregard contributions from those who are either confirmed or alleged to have WPO accounts, no. They are editors in good standing and offered a reasonable argument that had consensus support. The statement "once you put aside votes from WPO" is divisive and the view to disregard their contributions to the debate, again, did not have support to do so. This is the mentality we are looking at here, that commenting at WPO makes you less of a Wikipedian, that anyone who has commented there is equally guilty for any other action that has ever happened there, that being the subject of commentary of any kind there excuses terrible behavior here, that users need to "pick a side," and so on.

Probably the primary issue for the committee will be the contention that being discussed, attacked, outed, etc over there (I'm not looking to sugar coat anything, all that stuff does happen) has some sort of mitigating effect that excuses on-wiki conduct such as trolling, casting unfounded aspersions, misrepresenting what was said overe there to discount someone's comments here, etc. The committee has in the past held that this is not the case,(can provide pointers where to find this in email archives if desired) that we can feel some degree of sympathy for someone in that situation but that does not excuse their own poor behavior. Or, as my mom taught me when I was a small child: two wrongs don't make a right.

Another possible aspect is the on-wiki evidence-free demonization of users who dare to contribute to both sites, and the desired chilling effect from doing so. The way we have always done things is basically summed up by "provide some evidence or STFU" or I guess just WP:ASPERSIONS and vague accusations, which needs to stop. If someone is that terrible, evidence can be emailed to the commitee. If they just made a coment elsewhere that someone doesn't like, too bad.

I'm probably going to need a word extension if this moves forward.

Well, let's make that I formally request a word extension please as just adding this is putting me slightly over the line.

Thanks. For the moment I would note that Levivich was added as a party, which I think anyone even slighty familiar with the recent fracas would agree is proper, and they chose to revert that addition.

So, thinking more about the possible scope, as it now seems this may actually go forward, I'd say aside from some obvious behavioral issues that the community hasn't been able to manage, there are also policy interpretation issues. While the committee cannot and should not dictate policy, there are certain narrow areas where the committee must by needs lead the way regarding how a policy is interpreted and used on the ground, in this case the oversight policy and the outing policy, both of which have been relevant in some of these incidents.

Statement by Homeostasis07

Statement by AndyTheGrump

I fail to see how anyone could be expected to meaningfully respond to such a vague request. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:40, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Having seen some of the statements posted here subsequent to the above, I would perhaps suggest that if anything useful is to come from this ill-defined case request, it should consist of a reminder to all concerned that claims of alleged misconduct are required to be backed up by evidence when requested, that article talk pages, AfD discussions etc are not appropriate forums for such matters, and that making repeated nebulous and unverifiable allegations, whether naming a particular Wikipedia contributor or not, is disruptive regardless of where it takes place. Needless to say, this sort of behaviour is not unique to matters concerning Wikipediocracy, but is instead a common occurrence in disputes on Wikipedia, and on WP:AN and WP:ANI in particular. I suspect that a great many WP:ANI threads would be substantially shorter if this basic principle was enforced. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:49, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dilettante, as I said on WPO, If I saw any realistic prospect of this case going anywhere I'd request that the list of parties be extended. As it stands though, I can see no merit in doing so, since nothing remotely approaching any evidence-based specific allegation against me has been provided. And that, in my opinion, is the core issue here. An evidence-based case concerning specific allegations certainly merits evidence in response, but failing anything specific to respond to, adding to the list of parties achieves little beyond extending the scope for more vague back-and-forth allegations. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:23, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Silver Seren

I'm not really sure what to assert or address here for this filing. On the general topic in question, I guess all I have to say is that all of Arbcom, past and present members, should be more than aware of the long history of Wikipediocracy users being involved in harassment of dozens of Wikipedia editors, driving many of them off the project. This has included rampant doxxing and even incidents of editors' employers being contacted in order to cause them some harm because of them editing Wikipedia. This is all well known history spanning years and such incidents continue to happen over and over. Deflections of "off-wiki activities are unenforceable for known on-wiki current editors" hold less and less water as each new incident is added to the pile, particularly when those WPO users (the non-banned ones at least) involved in the derogatory commentary and harassment are simultaneously commenting and acting in the related on-wiki discussions. Silver seren^C 22:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by TarnishedPath

If this case is to go ahead its focal point should be how the community has not been able to deal with the behaviour of Lightburst and those who have derailed discussions by making personal attacks and cast aspersion mostly based on bullshit guilt by association arguments. See Moneytrees damning report which was excused by members of this community in the broader thread. TarnishedPath^talk 22:57, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Dilettante: The focus is that several users of the pro- and anti- faction have repeatedly argued in uncivil manner. If there is a pro faction can you please identify it because I don't see one. I've seen a bunch of editors excusing LB's behaviour with bullshit guilt by association arguments regarding WPO. TarnishedPath^talk 09:08, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Dilettante you write "TarnishedPath. The main part of the public case request is certainly whether editors in the 'anti' faction, in particular Lightburst, have behaved appropriately. Can you advise on what basis you've added me as a proposed party, is it merely because you are implying that I am part of the pro-WPO faction that you've referred to? If so where is your evidence for such a ill-founded accusation? TarnishedPath^talk 00:44, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@HJ Mitchell, @Levivich removed themselves as a proposed party at Special:Diff/1252678823 after I added them given their continous stating of mistruths and making allegatoins lacking in evidencde in multiple topic threads. Can you advised if this is permited for someone to remove themselves as a proposed party and if so I will do likewise. TarnishedPath^talk 00:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Levivich, Dilettante added me to the party list without any sufficent explanation or evidence demonstrating sufficent disruption on my part. How is that any different to my adding of you? You're not proposing that the first mover should have an advantage in defining who's behaviours are examined and who's aren't I hope? TarnishedPath^talk 03:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Levivich it is clear from the links above that you have repeatedly engaged in personnal attacks and casting aspersions and have done so evidence free. Multiple other editors here agree that you should be a party to the case and I don't see any argument for why I would be. TarnishedPath^talk 03:29, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Guerillero, apologies if removing or adding parties is outside procedures. I was unable to find anything during my brief reading and it strikes me that not allowing the addition of proposed parties gives the filer a first mover advantage which I'm sure wouldn't be intended. If this case is to go ahead I'd heavily suggest Levivich be a party because his conduct is central to multiple discussions of Lightburst's conduct being derailed. TarnishedPath^talk 09:07, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tryptofish

This filing is an overreaction, and the issue does not rise to the level of requiring ArbCom to get involved (unless some private evidence of harassment emerges, that ArbCom would need to deal with in private). ArbCom should decline it. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:15, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Daniel

Firstly, thanks to Dilettante for not including me in the list of parties — my only involvement has been to close the latest ANI mega-thread per the consensus of the proposals, so I agree with not being included (and am, quite frankly, glad) even though some people in their shoes may have done so.

Dropping by here given both Dilettante and JSS have referenced my actions or words. At this stage I don't have anything to add to my words at the ANI close (including relevant subsections) and subsequent user talk page discussion. I do agree with Dilettante that the current mood of this dispute on-wiki indeed "[has] escalated to the point that the very mention of WPO can derail a discussion". Which makes me especially despondent as there are good-faith experienced editors that I hold immense respect for on both sides who have been caugh up in this.

Finally, just acknowledging that I will make myself as available as possible to answer any questions from members of the Committee should they have any, although I hope my tangental involvement means this won't be necessary; plus I am travelling overseas as of this morning so if I am slightly delayed in doing so, my apologies in advance.

Thanks,
Daniel (talk) 20:01, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by JPxG

This filing does not make a whole lot of sense to me as something that would be best handled by ArbCom, but if this is simply going to become the general location for everyone to say their thing about WPO, I guess I will do so:

I do not think people should be blocked here merely for posting there, as most people there act normal.

I also do not think we should go trying to sniff around on some other site dusting for fingerprints investigating which editor goes to which pseudonym.

I do think that if you post over there, openly identifying yourself with the same name as you use over here, and you say extremely rude things about other editors, or try to whip up support for your own crusades onwiki, people over here should be able to take you to task for it. I don't think this is "collective guilt" or "BADSITES".

Also, this is obviously not an issue for the committee, but I think that the people who run the site should consider telling the dox guys to cut it out, as what they do is not only cruel and harassing, but also pointless and stupid. jp×g 🗯️ 20:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In response to the posts on WPO: when I say "dox" I mean, mostly, the thing where some guy posts a list of your family members and photos of you from Facebook, or joins the Discord to scroll through hundreds of posts and do a strings-on-corkboard of where your family vacation is, not the expansive WP:OUTING thing which includes "Wikipedia user Conezone863 wrote a spam article about Zombocom and Twitter user Conezone863 claims to be the CEO of Zombocom". jp×g 🗯️ 02:42, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@HJ Mitchell: This filing does not make a whole lot of sense to me as something that would be best handled by ArbCom, I don't know how to say that more directly. jp×g 🗯️ 01:39, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Carrite: Did you miss the beginning of the sentence, to wit: "this is obviously not an issue for the committee, but"?

Statement by Carrite

It's really unthoughtful and hurtful that a case proposal like this can be made by the filer without making me a party. I mean, with [tens of thousands] of posts [n.b. 13,000+] made to WPO over more than a decade, one would think that some sort of lame accusation could be cobbled together charging me with crimes against the state. What makes Andy the Grump and Beebs so special? And my connection between my WP nym and my WPO nym has been clearly made multiple times on-wiki, unlike other similarly-named accounts here and there. If we're gonna redo the WP:BADSITES case, let's at least be thorough with the axe-griding in this proposal for a pointless Arbcom timesink. --Tim Davenport /// Carrite (talk) 22:19, 21 October 2024 (UTC) /// Randy from Boise on WPO.[reply]

@JPxG - The "Dox Guys" are not Wikipedians and thus would be unaffected by sanctions here; nor is the WPO policy towards doxxing what you probably think it is. Carrite (talk) 22:40, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@dilettante - Per: To what extent, if any, should posts on WPO be considered canvassing? (in relation to the Bent's Camp discussion, Daniel's recent close, and other discussions) — The canvassing argument would be interesting to make. Bent's Camp is a perfect illustration that "There is no cabal" as it was Andy and me doing battle over the fate of that article, which I improved significantly during the AfD debate. But please hold an RFC on that issue, if it's huge for you, it is not a matter for Arbcom. (Bent's Camp was an honest deletionist/inclusionist difference of opinion.) Carrite (talk) 23:28, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mangoe - Per: It's tempting to say that if you don't like being criticized there, don't do things that invite criticism... - It is safe to say this is exactly the perspective of an overwhelming majority of WPO participants. Carrite (talk) 15:59, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've added myself to this case in the expectation that this is going to meander into the question of so-called "canvassing" and don't feel it is appropriate that Andy and Beebs be singled out. If this is a case instead about disruptive threads at ANI, Levivich should be in and I probably should be out, but YMMV. Carrite (talk) 03:32, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Liz

While I know that I appreciate a case being started on the intersection of Wikipedia and Wikipediocracy and WPO has certainly been at the center of some lively discussions on noticeboards, I think Dilettante's filing has failed to identify what the "problem" is that the arbitration committee is being addressed to resolve. Being controversial doesn't, in itself, require intervention, especially from ARBCOM and since this request was just posted, maybe the answer to my question will be become clearer over the next day or two. But just being a hot button issue is not sufficient for the committee to take on a case, there must be some misconduct going on or some intractable dispute and I don't see that existing in this case request. For the record, I think the subject is suitable for consideration but I don't think this case request defines what the committee is being asked to adjudicate or why certain editors have been included as parties simply because they participated in some of these discussions. That is, I'm not sure what misconduct on THIS PROJECT is being highlighted of being of concern. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:20, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Soni's point, I don't remember this from my days as an Arbitration clerk but can an editor just remove themselves as an involved party from a case filed by another editor? I thought this was a request that could be posed but editors can't just delete their name. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Swatjester

It's not clear what this case request is about. Is it about the existence of WPO? Discussion of WPO on-wiki? Allegations of off-wiki misbehavior? Daniel's close? I cannot tell from the filing what the scope of this case is intended to be.

Disregard; in the time between starting this, getting distracted, and coming back to it, the request was clarified to be more specific. I don't think this is the right venue to answer the question of whether WPO posts should be considered canvassing -- in fact, I don't think that question is really relevant to WPO directly at all. There is, probably, value in a generalized discussion at WP:CANVAS about whether the terms and definitions of that page (in particular, the WP:STEALTH part) apply to an off-wiki discussion about on-wiki discussion in circumstances where it is unclear or questionable that the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way is present; or how to construe that in the context of a forum where users will have differing, often contradictory opinions and intentions. But I don't see why that should be done here as opposed to fixing the guideline that's too ambiguous.⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 23:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Softlavender

This case request seems pointless to me, because no issues are mentioned other than WP vs WPO, which ArbCom has no jurisdiction in and no desire to patrol. If there are issues that can only be raised privately to ArbCom, there is no reason for a case (it should be an internal-only affair), and the community cannot comment.

If the case is against (alleged) long-term disruption or disruptiveness by Lightburst, and/or their excess mention of WPO on WP, then the case should be against Lightburst exclusively, not on a mysterious cabal of people who either post on WPO or post on WP about WPO.

I suggest that the committee decline this case. I also suggest that the filer is apparently too much of a newbie (on-wiki for barely two years) to know how ArbCom and ArbCom cases work. Softlavender (talk) 01:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To add to the above: The only clearly stated item/question in the filer's case request is not something ArbCom does or handles. Namely: "To what extent, if any, should posts on WPO be considered canvassing?" ArbCom does not set policy or adjudicate canvassing. Off-wiki WP:CANVASSING is by definition off-wiki WP:CANVASSING.

Therefore, I still recommend declining this public case request. Any serious infractions that can only be handled via private communication should be handled via private communication. Softlavender (talk) 03:50, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dronebogus

I too am confused about what this is supposed to specifically address. ArbCom can’t wave a magic wand and fix everything wrong here (and there is a LOT wrong here). When people (including myself) complain about WPO, it’s usually about how the numerous threads dedicated to mocking and insulting specific editors could be viewed as outing, off-wiki harassment and canvassing/encouragement for on-wiki attacks. That much seems cut and dry. Why are we beating around the bush here? (Sorry for all the mixed metaphors) Dronebogus (talk) 07:05, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mangoe

This ought to go nowhere except perhaps as a great WP:BOOMERANG. Homeostasis07 makes a false claim about doxxing, and once again it is Airing of Grievances Against WPO time. People are going to make WP-critical sites and forums; people on those forums aren't going to feel themselves bound by on-WP rules there, and WP participants are going to show up at those sites both to engage the criticism and to have discussions which aren't really possible on WP. It's tempting to say that if you don't like being criticized there, don't do things that invite criticism, but at any rate it seems to me that almost all disruption centered around WPO is caused on this end by people making a fuss about it. This case submission seems to be a poorly focused example of the latter. Mangoe (talk) 12:49, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Rhododendrites

There are two ways for arbcom to take this case.

The narrow way is just to consider whether there should be an interaction ban between [certain WPO parties] and [Lightburst]. Meh to that.

The broad way is to scrutinize the status quo regarding WPO, the information that arises there, WP:HARASS, WP:CANVAS, and WP:COI.

Here is the status quo, as I see it:

Legitimate issues are occasionally raised on WPO which should be addressed on-wiki (and by "should be addressed on-wiki" I mean it should result in action on-wiki, but also that it should just be brought up and discussed on-wiki instead of on WPO). When that happens the community -- and arbcom, via the Nihonjoe case -- has shown that it is willing to put on blinders to the provenance of actionable information and all the harassment, doxing, and insults that takes place around it. It becomes acceptable for people to be canvassed via WPO, show up on-wiki, and !vote together when they are fundamentally correct about the content (the sickly state of WP:BRINE).
When provenance and canvassing do arise, proof would require linking to harmful threads (and it's not practical to email arbcom to respond to a brief ANI thread), and at some point someone -- often the same few people -- simply denies anything bad happened at all, scolds those who suggest otherwise, and redirects people to focus on what they can see on-wiki. In practice, this means that in a large thread about WPO and Lightburst, the only sanction to come out of it was a topic ban... for someone criticizing WPO. Many of the supports for that tban came from WPO members [without COI disclosures], and no mention of that in the closing statement. Not saying a tban was/wasn't justified -- just that, because there's a legitimate complaint about aspersions, nobody cares that WPO regulars turned out to silence a critic.

I'd lean towards suggesting arbcom decline this broad scope, however, in large part because I fear we will get a long, ugly case that ends up doing more harm than good. I think arbcom is typically reluctant to extend its jurisdiction off-wiki except in truly extreme cases. As long as the target "deserves it" (i.e. is wrong in some capacity) and as long as the most extreme stuff comes from those who are already banned or aren't known Wikipedians, it would be too easy for arbcom to unofficially bless harassing/insulting/canvassing off-wiki and/or cheering on already-banned or unidentified users who do that and worse, cracking jokes with them, proxying for them, and/or taking action on-wiki based on what they turn up. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 12:43, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Robert McClenon (Wikipediocracy)

The filing editor sort of stated in passing why ArbCom should open a case and conduct a quasi-judicial evidentiary hearing. The record of previous WP:ANI cases is the reason. The reason is not the Wikipediocracy (WPO) web site, but repeated incivility on the Wikipedia web site, that repeatedly flares up at WP:ANI. ArbCom has been established to deal with conduct disputes that the community is unable to resolve. The community has been unable to resolve the recurrent outbreaks of incivility, for at least two reasons. The first is that attitudes toward WPO divide the community, with some editors thinking, reasonably, that the site is too often toxic and harmful, and other editors thinking, reasonably, that Wikipedia editors should have freedom of association, and should be allowed to speak for Wikipedia even at a bad site. This means that the community is divided. The second reason is that identifying fault requires a careful review, and identifying the remedies for the incivility even more require deliberation. Something needs to be done. Should it be topic-bans from discussion of WPO? Should it be interaction bans, which are sometimes gamed but sometimes necessary? Are one or two of the editors net negatives to the community, who should be site-banned? The community has tried and failed to resolve the antagonism, and the ArbCom has a responsibility.

I will also say something that I said prior to the Historical Elections case that was ignored. If ArbCom acts largely on the basis of private evidence, they should make as much of an effort as possible to make as much of the evidence public as possible. Transparency improves trust. In this WPO case, much of the evidence consists of on-wiki exchanges that keep recurring, and may continue.

I don't know whether ArbCom should or may involve itself with what goes on off-wiki on WPO, but ArbCom should deal with the ugly on-wiki exchanges. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:22, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added Comments

I have read the WP:ANI dated 17 October 2024 concerning the posting by Lightburst of personal attacks against seven other editors. The response by the community itself illustrates that the community is failing to deal with disruption. The posting of those comments was beyond the pale and required some sanction. The only sanction taken by the community was against another editor. This further shows that the on-wiki personal attacks are a situation that the community is not dealing with, and a quasi-judicial review by ArbCom is required. One of the reasons why the community did not take action against Lightburst is that several editors thought that ArbCom should take the case. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:07, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to HJ Mitchell

The incidents listed by Dilettante, and especially the misuse of the user page by Lightburst, are long-term feuding, and community processes have not dealt with them.

Statement by Star Mississippi

I think there is merit to a case, public, private or otherwise as the current status quo of "every time someone who posts to WPO or is the subject of an WPO post is brought to ANI, it turns into a referendum on WPO that derails the issue at hand" is not sustainable. The recent Lightburst threads are just the latest, and there has been no real resolution to the underlying issue because of the lack of evidence. Star Mississippi 18:44, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Barkeep49

I agree with the analysis of Star Missisippi so I won't repeat that. I would also suggest for Arbs who have said they think there are more cases ArbCom could handle that this feels like a good example of one that isn't as serious as a PIA but which the community has, for the reasons articulated by Star, been unable to handle and for which a binding decision may help the community avoid future conflict. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:49, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Andrevan

Not a party, not involved, didn't review recent thread. In the past, though, WPO has been a lightning rod so I think that if possible, ArbCom trying to fix that would be good. The pattern I've seen is offwiki harassment, joe jobs, trolling, doxxing, etc., on WPO, then, when confronted by onwiki discussion or forwards to ArbCom there are then boomerangs that end up turning around the person being harassed into the aggressor. This has a chilling effect on addressing the offwiki harassment. Not speaking about myself but I know of 2 users that were persistently harassed offwiki via WPO and really don't have a recourse, and it's resulting in them being unhappy and/or fearful, and creates a chilling effect on their participation on Wikipedia. I will not give further details, but I'm sure anyone can find many examples of similar situations. Therefore I feel a modern 'BADSITE' policy would be helpful for their sake. Andre🚐 23:11, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Soni

I recommend a larger scope to this case than just Lightburst. While Lightburst remains the central lightning rod for many WPO related drama, he is far from the only problematic editor in that regard. There are incidents of clear WP:CANVASS, as well as many more cases of incivility excarbated by having a parallel discussion on WPO for some of these editors.

Additionally, I am concerned at User:Levivich and User:TarnishedPath both seemingly removing themselves [3] [4] as party to this case. I was not aware that parties can just unilaterally "just say no" to being part of an Arbcom case this way. I believe there is enough cause to consider both of them parties to this. Soni (talk) 02:11, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Levivich

@Soni: and @arbs/clerks: I removed myself from the party list because I was not listed as a party in the original filing. Tarnish Path added me to the party list without any explanation (or evidence); I don't believe editors are allowed to do this, especially because it made it seem like I was listed as a party by Dilettante in the original filing when that was not the case. So I reverted it. I thought that would waste less time than pointing it out to a clerk and asking a clerk to revert it, but if that's how arbs/clerks would prefer I handle it, then that's what I'll do in the future. On whether I should be a party: I don't see any diffs of disruption by me that would justify my being a party to this case, but if anyone wants me to explain or comment on any of my edits, I'm happy to do so. Levivich (talk) 02:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TarnishedPath: Yes, I think the filer of a request for arbitration should get to decide which parties should be listed on the party list in their request. I do not think editors should add names to the filer's party list, or remove names from the filer's party list. I think which parties make it into the actual case is up to the arbs. If anyone else besides the filer or arbs thinks somebody should or should not be a party, I think they should write that in their own section (with diffs or links; private evidence by email). I think this is all standard arbitration procedure. Levivich (talk) 03:20, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by GhostOfDanGurney

Is this a request about WPO, or is this a request concerning Lightburst's latest outburst? The recent questions regarding TarnishedPath's status as a party have led me to asking this. Certainly they were involved in the Lightburst situation regarding Bent's Camp Resort, but I'm not sure that a postcount of 13 on WPO (as they admit themselves) warrants them being named as a party to a case about WPO, especially if only Lightburst made any complaints about those 13 posts.

Regardless, ArbCom should accept as I opine that Lightburst's "dick list" and other recent transgressions would have gotten even an established editor quickly indeff'd at ANI had it not been for the anti-WPO faction coming to his defense. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 03:11, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Yngvadottir

I have added myself as a party to this ill-defined case proposal aince I engaged on the topic of Wikipediocracy at User talk:Levivich#ANI (and probably a time or two elsewhere, including AN/I itself), and made it clear at least in the exchange with Levivich that I am (as of this year) a member at Wikipediocracy (under the same name as here on-wiki; and I've been a reader and made use of the site as a source of information for years; I've been thanked over there a number of times for improving articles). If the committee accepts a case with participation at Wikipediocracy or the accusation of canvassing at Wikipediocracy forming part of its scope, clerks, please do the needful and move this up.

However, I do not think the committee should accept this case request. It isn't apparent to me how the issues that have been raised go beyond our existing civility policy, namely, the prohibition on casting aspersions without evidence. ArbCom recently simplified the process for submitting private information; this should have sufficed to clarify that there is no exception for the policy against aspersions for activity off-wiki on sites that contain material of which one may disapprove. Even when that material is avowedly critical of the current state of Wikipedia. Yngvadottir (talk) 04:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Aaron Liu

I do want to note that Lightburst, a prinicpal and vital party here, has not edited since 3 minutes after he added his "gallery of rogues" on 17 October. While I agree that this is an issue that perhaps only ArbCom can address, Lightburst's inactivity needs to be factored into the arbitrators' decision on whether to proceed with an opened case. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by AirshipJungleman29

In response to a comment above, the committee should know that despite Lighburst's recent inactivity onwiki, he is aware of recent events and has made efforts to remain up-to-date. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {Non-party}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.

Wikipediocracy-related conduct: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

@JPxG: your statement does not address whether there is a case to be heard involving this list of parties or similar or whether there is anything ArbCom can do about the dispute between them. Could you kindly refactor or remove? This isn't the place for general discussion about Wikipediocracy. Thank you, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:34, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(not a clerk but noting word extension) @Just Step Sideways: Extension granted up to 1000 words. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:06, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipediocracy-related conduct: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/0/0>

Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)

ArbCom can't stop editors being rude about each other on another website. Nor can we realistically prevent mention of that website on Wikipedia. But we can deal with long-term feuding between editors if community processes have been unable to do so. Statements (and please keep them concise) should focus on that. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:30, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm inclined to accept, but I'll wait to hear some more thoughts. We had already received multiple private requests related to WPO in the shadow of the Lightburst issue. We were in the process of considering whether to take them on. With a now front facing case, I think we have a much clearer way to take this. At the end of the day, we don't control WPO. But clearly there is a simmering pot of issues related to WPO which is on-wiki. ANI can't really handle the mix of on and off wiki evidence, which was evinced by the multiple derailed threads about Lightburst. I am most torn about scope; I'm not sure whether it's best to focus on Lightburst, or to have a beefier case which tries to tackle WP/WPO feuds writ large. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 17:57, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with and feel the same as Eek. Z1720 (talk) 19:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A few thoughts in no particular order with no organization:
1. "Vigilant enjoys doxing people he disagrees with" isn't something arbcom can fix; vigilant isn't getting unblocked anytime soon. While I would like him to stop, we have no other levers.
2. I reject the argument that the issues WPO finds are some sort of "fruit of the poisoned tree". We can have a discussion about their signal to noise ratio, but I personally find it to be decent enough to read regularly. Just this month I blocked a problematic sock due to their work.
3. I have an account and sometimes post. From 2016 until last year, there was a move on WPO to do less personal attacks and more research (i.e. be more respectable). They banned a number of users who are SanFranBanned in this era. After JSS's suspension, the pendulum has swung back towards older behavior. Maybe it is to punish us for punishing their favorite arb. Maybe it is because they came to the conclusion that being the better indexed memory of ANI wasn't worth the work. Who knows. I post less because of the face-heel turn.
4. People adding and removing parties to this case outside of procedures is cringe.
5. A case should probably be narrow and just focus on Lightburst.
6. I'm not interested in BADSITES try number 4.
--Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 07:54, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]