User talk:Rhyminreason

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Warning

Please stop disrupting the Etymology Scriptorium with non-sequitur speculation, as you did here.

You've been called out at least three times for this before. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 17:25, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Raison d'etre

@Rhyminreason, what are you doing here? Paul G's query at the start of this thread is trivial to look into, and yet all you've done is respond with (what appears to me as) ungrounded nonsense. I ask out of curiosity and honest confusion -- what are you hoping to accomplish here, at Wiktionary? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:45, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr: I took the liberty to move your question to my talk page, because it was off-topic at the tea room and only directed at me.

However, I choose to ignore it, just as you choose to ignore my statement about the comparability, which already answered your question about that.

Maybe I will answer later. Rhyminreason (talk) 00:43, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

PS: Unfortunately I messed up the ping before. Rhyminreason (talk) 12:02, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Warning No. 2

Please stop disrupting the Tea Room, as you did here.

You've been called out at least six times for disruption before. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 01:37, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

On another note, your attempts at pinging Eirikr here failed because you used his signature instead of his actual username. 01:41, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

@Hillcrest98 Of what are you warning me, Unintended consequences? Rhyminreason (talk) 15:13, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

I have noticed that you are continuing to add nonsense to multiple forum pages, despite being warned, having it explained to you, and having your additions reverted. What you're being warned of now is that if you continue in this vein, you will be blocked. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 00:30, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

@metaknowledge: On the risk of more nonsense, let me ask, which meaning of nonsense is it? Rhyminreason (talk) 19:11, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

This blocked user is asking that their block be reviewed:

Rhyminreason (block log • active blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • abuse filter log • user creation log • change block settings • unblock)

---

Request reason:

Meta is reverting me on sight, blocking me now with a blanket statement. The latest revert accompinying the block is a pre-judgement in a discussion of languages without speaking the necessary language, on account of other users who's conduct is no less disruptive. Here a post to the etymology scriptorium was reverted with the suggestion to post an eymologic question to the tea room instead. I feel there is a strong preoccupation against me. I attempted to discuss prior reverts on my talk page only to be ignored. This is unacceptable. I know there are a few good admins around here, who don't honour fool language, however carefully it's worded. I hope those will read it. The block is only for a day, yes -- this time. Unblocking should be a sign. Yes, I am not yet an active editor: Quite frankly, in this atmosphere I don't think it will be worth the hassle to become one.

कान्हा (kānhā)

It's obviously from कृष्ण (kŕṣṇa), which you would be able to tell if you had looked at any reliable source. The development is regular: kŕṣṇa > Prakrit kaṇṇa > Old Hindi kān(h)ā > Hindi kānhā. Your ideas have no basis in the sound laws that govern Indo-Aryan language development, not to mention linking it to the word you did is kind of offensive. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 16:34, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

@AryamanA: There's a reasonable reply in your comment. My question is helpful because it revealed that the etymology at कान्हा (kānhā) could be improved a) with the intermediate step and b) with the appropriate sources. If that's the case, why would that information have been too much to ask for? Rhyminreason (talk) 09:49, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

@AryamanA: Thanks for your translation. I have to admit, My first guess was हर्रे (harre) looks like a pictograph of a rabbit, so, yeah, I can be outright paranoid at times. It's only fair if you all are highly skeptic in return. Now that I saw those "ears" are quite common in devangari script, I don't really think so anymore. Google translate only gave the transcription "harre", so my imagination was kindled, likening it to hare.

However, in the meantime I found that h?r- in some form describes bright colors in PIE and Sanskrit. Incidentally, the fruit w:Terminalia_arjuna (via w:Myrobalans) looks goldish and the byname arjuna attess to that.

In other news, McGregor has कान्ह glossed also as "black". I don't know if you read the reverted comment -- that one explains my hypothesis a bit. So this was really not so much about religion. I might be provocative, but I didn't mean to offend anyone. I hope you accept my apology. Rhyminreason (talk) 10:29, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

It's okay, I'm sure you did not mean to offend. As for your theories, Devanagari is not pictographic or logographic, it is an abugida, somewhat like a syllabary. The word हर्रे (harre) can be split into ह (ha) + र (ra) + ् (vowel killer) + र (ra) + े (e). *h is not a phoneme in Proto-Indo-European (PIE), so I do not know what you mean; maybe you're talking about *h₁, *h₂, *h₃, which are called "laryngeals" in PIE, but these were historically lost in Sanskrit and can never lead to the actual ह (ha) sound. The word हर्रे (harre) (which as far as I know is an obsolete or regional form of हड़ (haṛ)) is from Sanskrit हरीतक (harītaka, literally “that which is green”), from हरित (harita, “green”). So you're on the right track, but not totally there.

कान्हा (kānhā) / कान्ह (kānha) probably did mean "black" historically, (as did their ancestor Sanskrit कृष्ण (kṛṣṇa)), but that meaning is obsolete now. There's no relation to Hindi काली (kālī) or काला (kālā).

I advise you to not pose your own theories without having a solid grasp of the scholarly research that goes into established etymologies. Too many mistakes can be made in that manner. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 00:00, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Your speculative screeds

Wiktionary's fora are for building the dictionary and improving it. Nothing more, nothing less. Your baseless and absurd etymological proposals do nothing but waste our time, as I have already explained to you. You need to stop posting them. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 17:36, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

It appears that you don't understand what "sum of parts" means. Stop wasting other people's time. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 22:18, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: I believe the phrase "kill it with fire" originates from an online meme (or trope, or whatever you want to call it, you know what I mean) around disgusting spiders, in which case the expression is not figurative but merely exageration. I can only guess that not figurative is the part of the definition at sum of parts which you wanted to point out. Is that correct?

Generally, your reverts are sometimes reasonable, I have to admit, as far as I am open to critique. But your form of critique raises criticism, too. It's kind of lazy. You seem to try to be objective and patient as much as possible and I try to respect that, but it makes me curios. Frankly I'm a bit worried that you are overreacting.

Could you explain your objection to the question on the etymology of Hindi kanha (diff)? Likewise, the question for the difference between *flatas and *flakas was likely valid, even if packed in fluff. Etc. etc.

Also, you indirectly calling Starostin a "crackpot" borders on defamation. I mean, the compilation is useful; Reconstructions are inherently probabilistic, so that they are unlikely is a given, but that doesn't invalidate the work as unscientific, if just a small share has some chance of being true.

Rhyminreason (talk) 01:39, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Excessive Block

Please, someone repeal the block duration, it's unreasonable (diff). A month would be excessive but OK, maybe a year, but not indefinite. Rhyminreason (talk) 22:48, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

@Chuck_Entz: Wyang complained about being kept from work, so I don't think it right to bother that blocking admin any further. Since you are actively monitoring for problematic users, I'll have to ask you first to review this -- also because you commented before. I'd like to defend myself as a last resort, if that's OK. Rhyminreason (talk) 18:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

mysos

@Per_utramque_cavernam: Compare that to the semantic of the stem of insane.

BTW I doubt rock spider reaches notability, ugly a term as it is. Anyhow, since you asked, consider that the spider as prison tattoo signifies predatory behavior ie. drug dealing, where prison tattoos follow established symbolism, and that prostitution often involves drug addiction as a means to control the victims. So the Urban Dictionary quip was probably an after thought.

I hope this doesn't count as block evasion? I should not go on to make responding on my talk page a habit, but I am suffering from withdrawal. Rhyminreason (talk) 05:06, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

bunda

@Jberkel: Do you have a source for the ety at bunda#Portuguese you added in diff?

Of course I expected the same PIE root as for bottom, butt. I still can't rule out a Portuguese innovation of this sense that entered the bunda languages. Further I am just trying to connect loose ends, because punk mentions Spanish "pu(n)ta" (prostitute), but I don't see "punta" in that sense and I am frankly too tired to verify whether that's mere stipulation or an obscure word. Ultimately, I don't trust a 19th century dictionary e.g. written in Portugal for a term that has hardly any currency there.

Either way, I can't fix the entry. Can you take a second for a second look?

Rhyminreason (talk) 01:11, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Added a ref to the entry. – Jberkel 12:00, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Ulme, elm-tree

A popular etymon for the city w:de:Ilmenau#History Ilmenau is an older i-form of Ulme. Grimm mentions "ahd. u. mhd. hochstufenform elm, ilm", i.e. Old High German. We only have this as MHG at Ulme. Saying this just in case you missed it.

But of course I went looking further.

• Russian ильм (ilʹm) and Czech wikt:cs:jilm for the elm might be interesting, but I cannot read Czech and didn't find anything on the Russian. Thuringia, the state governing Ilmenau today, shares a boarder with Czechia, by the way.

More precisely, the river by the city is also called Ilm. That's likely older, I guess.

• w:de:Ilm_(Saale)#Namensherkunft lists an alternative idea: "Baltic-Celtic" origin (?) from Lithuanian "elmes" ("die Flüssigkeit, die den Leichen aus dem Mund kommt" -- the fluid that comes out of the corpses mouth??? w:de:Ulme says the elm was in ancient Greece a symbol for death and mourning). The Ilm flows into the w:de:Saale, which has an extensive etymology saying river ... by willows, but mentions everything from Ibrahim Ibn Yaqqub ("S.lawa"?) over Slavic Settlers to Strabon (general name meaning flowing body of water?) and the Wends ("Solowa" -- salt+water,river,meadow?); A comment on the talk page links it to Sal-Weide ([[1]]), which says from a root meaning dark, grey, etc., salix (“willow”) just says PIE willow.

• Other rivers are named w:de:Ilm as well. w:de:Ilm_(Abens) says from PIE "*el" - "to move about", which we don't have; It's attested as "Ilma" from 821 CE.

This is where I should stop, but have to wonder what *el- is. I wont draw preliminary conclusions from a slew of *?el- roots. Or who borrowed timber.

By the way, is this not by any chance related to the name Helmholtz? I often wondered whether that's helmets made of wood. PS: compare Helmschrott, Helmholdt. The elm-wood is called Rüster; Is that comparable to Rüstung (armor)? I guess that nobody knows..

@Hillcrest98: I just wanted to point out a potential /i/ influence, because you said u-stem, if that's any help. Now I'm sure somebody else will point that out, but I've already written it up. Rhyminreason (talk) 22:54, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

genette, genet

@Benwing2 @Lambiam: fr.WT says it is from spanish jineta, from jinete, from the Berbers, who had their own script and quite different language. There is a semantic gap, and confusion with civet does not make it any easier. I hope the questioner will be content with the french link, anyhow. Rhyminreason (talk) 10:39, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

(@Benwing2) Reusing the common name for one species (or genus) to name other, unrelated and unfamiliar but similar-looking species, is something that happens all the time. The visual similarity between (at least some) civets and raccoons, whose habitats do not overlap, is enough for me to think the semantic gap is not a big deal. So if the Berber origin is right (Wikipedia Genet (animal) states as a fact that the common genet was brought from the Maghreb to the Mediterranean region as a semi-domestic animal about 1000 to 1500 years ago, and from there introduced to southwestern Europe during historical times; however, the source cited in support of this is much more tentative in its claims), the name was originally something like Zenata cat, which can easily have been shortened – just like Turkey fowl became turkey. Plausible enough, although lacking a proper documentary trail.  --Lambiam 12:07, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

परशु

The etymology looks good to me. Thank you for your continued efforts.

Well, I've got two notes on the etymology, what do you think? For one, Fallbeil, came on my mind and I wonder whether guillotine like contraptions are simple enough to have been used earlier. For another, I'm reminded of spell.

With four different etymologies at spell, it's not as decisive as the first ety would make it seem: Mitteilung has connotations of splitting; To spell a word is to split it up into letters; The third ety has something like Zeitabschnitt (as in dry spell) and the third just outright relates to wood (splinters). But, I had that inspiration from Turkish balta mentioned at πέλεκυς. Nevertheless, the fourth "spell" ety links to speld, which mentions *(s)pel- (“to split”), so I'm not too far off. And indeed, fall mentions *(s)pol-. "einen Baum oder ein Urteil fällen" might be later conflations. Suffice to say I'm always happy when an etymology admits possible conflation, as for Beil at परशु (but not at Beil?). Anyhow, those two "fällen" in my native speaker mind are obviously not related thematically at all. "To bring down judgement" is a parallel, but Urteil seems to employ yet again a metaphor to splitting, parting, deciding.

Now, I'm loosing track, so I should stop here with more pseudo cognates. But that's hard, there are so many. part mentions *per- (“to cut, bore”), which itself doesn't have that gloss, but is the root to pro-, so it's highly productive (and too complex for me to begin with). I guess, in summary that suggests between *pel- and *per-, if we are looking at a dialect continuum, the Sanskrit could be a separate innovation ... or retaining older features. With Akkadian being semitic, proto-afro-asiatic becomes a concern, but that's long range.

Now I see that bite and *bilją (e.g. "Beil") have the same root, furthering the metaphors related to the mouth. I have to admit I find that more interesting than battle weapons. Still, battle-axe would be a clear distinction to a wood axe. While fight only sounds similar to *bʰeyd-, the root *pek- is rather similar to *per-.

Never the less, it occurred to me to look at the second part of πέλεκυς and parasu. ek, I speculate is related to Ecke, Hacke, Zacken, nick, etc. etc. -- a wedge of any kind. Further, in my mind, *sek- is a very old root for to cut and I see that in the 's' in the sanskrit. Compare that to 石器 (“stone tool”), 石 (“stone”). The old Chinese is /*dAk/, so that's no 's', but on the other hand dagger mentions Armenien դակու (daku, “adze, axe”). There's also the hand-axe, which I'll throw in (no pun intended) just because *penkwos starts with a p-, too, and a k as in *pek-.

Yet another idea would be to look into stone industries, perhaps axes were made of large splinters, specks, splits, flakes. I'm thinking the decisive feature is that for an axe one needs a flake that is flat (from *flataz, *pleth; But "flach" is from *flakas, which gives *plāg-, *plāk-, *pele- (“broad, wide, flat”)) as opposed to a pointy pick-axe.

What am I doing here? Well, I guess I am confused because I cannot tell how regular the supposed PIE root and the descendant developments are. So I am fantasizing a bit about things that were on my mind anyway, mostly about the dozens of cut roots in PIE. @sche. Rhyminreason (talk) 12:06, 29 June 2018 (UTC)