17:01:46 <Lydia_WMDE> #startmeeting Wikidata office hour
17:01:46 <wm-labs-meetbot`> Meeting started Wed Sep 23 17:01:46 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Lydia_WMDE. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:01:46 <wm-labs-meetbot`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
17:01:46 <wm-labs-meetbot`> The meeting name has been set to 'wikidata_office_hour'
17:01:54 <Lydia_WMDE> sweet :)
17:02:02 <Lydia_WMDE> good to have you here
17:02:27 <Lydia_WMDE> i wanted to start with a short overview of the big things that happened in the 3 months since the last office hour
17:02:28 <Scott_WorldUnivA> Hello Everyone :)
17:02:47 <Lydia_WMDE> then Jo had a topic related to OSM. Is he/she here?
17:02:55 <Lydia_WMDE> and then we can do questions and discussion
17:02:55 <Polyglot> I'm here
17:03:07 <Lydia_WMDE> ah cool :)
17:03:38 <Lydia_WMDE> ok so a lot of things have happened since the last office hour. i'll try to briefly summarize the most important ones
17:04:04 <Lydia_WMDE> * we got support for units
17:04:17 <Lydia_WMDE> it's taken a long time but it's finally there
17:04:26 <addshore> o/
17:04:53 <Lydia_WMDE> Thanks to the help from the discovery team at wmf we now also have a query service
17:05:24 <Lydia_WMDE> we've rolled out arbitrary access to a huge number of wikis and i think we're done with all wikipedias now
17:05:46 <Polyglot> and it even works on en.WP! :-)
17:05:54 <Lydia_WMDE> indeed! :D
17:06:17 <Lydia_WMDE> thanks to this we now also have data on how much wikidata is actually used on the other projects
17:06:23 <Lydia_WMDE> https://tools.wmflabs.org/audetools/wikidata-stats/ gives a first overview
17:06:36 <Lydia_WMDE> we'll be working on making this track stats over time
17:06:53 <Lydia_WMDE> we have a fancy new mobile view
17:06:54 <Scott_WUaS> so great!
17:07:11 <Lydia_WMDE> https://m.wikidata.org/wiki/Q2
17:07:53 <ricordisamoa> clap clap
17:07:59 <Lydia_WMDE> we also got the first parts of the student project live that will help us with data quality: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:ConstraintReport/Q146 - an improved constraint system
17:08:19 <Lydia_WMDE> Wikibooks got access to the data on wikidata
17:08:35 <Lydia_WMDE> we made it into the top 10 of the Land der Ideen competition winners
17:08:49 <ricordisamoa> #8 :(
17:08:57 <Lydia_WMDE> top10! :D
17:09:45 <Lydia_WMDE> and most importantly: our content is growing and getting richer. just a few interesting things related to that:
17:09:56 <Lydia_WMDE> ** WikiProject Sum of all Paintings reached the milestone of 100.000 paintings.
17:09:56 <Lydia_WMDE> * Mix'n'match is growing https://tools.wmflabs.org/mix-n-match/?
17:09:56 <Lydia_WMDE> ** Primary sources tool is gaining traction
17:09:56 <Lydia_WMDE> ** http://addshore.com/2015/07/barack-obama-geneawiki-1-year-later/
17:09:56 <Lydia_WMDE> ** https://ddll.inf.tu-dresden.de/web/Wikidata/Maps-06-2015/en
17:09:57 <Lydia_WMDE> ** We passed 70M statements
17:10:23 <Lydia_WMDE> I think this is pretty sweet for 3 months. what do you think?
17:10:34 <Scott_WUaS> top !0! :)
17:10:35 <dennyvrandecic> yay!
17:10:35 <Polyglot> Indeed, major leaps
17:10:45 <dennyvrandecic> it was a good quarter :)
17:10:48 <addshore> Woop woop!
17:10:52 <Lydia_WMDE> think so too :)
17:11:05 <Lydia_WMDE> ok so then let's get to what's next:
17:11:30 <Lydia_WMDE> i think the biggest next breakthrough for wikidata will be the article placeholder Lucie is working on right now
17:12:00 <Lydia_WMDE> the basic idea being that wikidata always wanted to support the small wikipedias but we've not yet really achieved that to the extend i want it to
17:12:24 <Lydia_WMDE> the article placeholder will help with this
17:12:49 <ricordisamoa> I heard it's based on Scribunto?
17:13:18 <Lydia_WMDE> when someone searches for a topic a wikipedia has no article about but wikidata has data for we'll have the opportunity to show data from wikidata to the reader so they at least get the basic information
17:13:39 <Lydia_WMDE> we then can also encourage them to create a proper article or translate one from another language
17:14:00 <Lydia_WMDE> my hope is that this will give a huge boost to the small wikipedias by getting them more readers and editors
17:14:03 <Polyglot> or jumpstart one based on the proposal?
17:14:28 <Lydia_WMDE> Polyglot: yeah we will have to see how/if that will work
17:15:02 <Lydia_WMDE> ricordisamoa: the content layout will be up to the local community via Lua. not sure how much scribunto Lucie will use atm
17:15:04 <Polyglot> It sounds like many templates in many languages will be needed for this
17:15:13 <Lydia_WMDE> we will provide a meaningful default
17:15:26 * DanielK_WMDE is late
17:15:26 <Lydia_WMDE> because especially the small ones will probably not be able to do it all by themself
17:16:01 <Lydia_WMDE> we'll hopefully have a first rough version to look at pretty soon
17:16:31 <dennyvrandecic> Lydia_WMDE: will these placeholders be accessible to search engines?
17:16:55 <Lydia_WMDE> dennyvrandecic: ideally yes but we have not talked details
17:17:13 <Lydia_WMDE> so not sure if/how to make it happen
17:17:17 <dennyvrandecic> would be good, otherwise an important path for users to find these pages would not be available
17:17:23 <Lydia_WMDE> yeah agreed
17:17:27 <addshore> dennyvrandecic: I don't believe they will be in the very first iteration / implementaion
17:17:34 <Jianhui67> Hi there
17:18:15 <Lydia_WMDE> the other bigger thing i want to get done is separating the identifiers in the UI and doing linking them in the software instead of a gadget
17:18:34 <Lydia_WMDE> this should make pages much more easy to scan and understand
17:18:39 <ricordisamoa> yes!
17:19:10 <Lydia_WMDE> we're also working on making it possible to enter the reference at the same time as you add a statement
17:19:17 <Lydia_WMDE> instead of having to do it in two steps
17:19:56 <Lydia_WMDE> another thing we're working on is making the edit summaries we show on the wikipedias and so on more meaningful
17:20:03 <Lydia_WMDE> right now they only say "an item has changed"
17:20:28 <sjoerddebruin> :D
17:20:31 <Jianhui67> Now discussion on Calvinism!
17:20:33 <dennyvrandecic> will users be offered the chance to write a summary themselves?
17:20:37 <Jianhui67> Nah joking haha
17:21:20 <Lydia_WMDE> dennyvrandecic: i'd like to stay away from that as much as possible to keep things accessible in all languages. but if we have to i am open to considering it in the future
17:21:21 <Scott_WUaS> dennyvrandecic: that would be great
17:21:30 <DanielK_WMDE> dennyvrandecic: denny said no to that feature. oh, wait.
17:21:31 <Scott_WUaS> ok
17:22:11 <Jianhui67> I just want to ask why merge.js does not work at times. Does anyone have this problem too? I need to deactivate and activate then it will work
17:22:22 <dennyvrandecic> DanielK_WMDE: :D
17:22:24 <Lydia_WMDE> Jianhui67: we'll get to that later
17:22:33 <Lydia_WMDE> we'll also work on getting the extension deployed that will help with checking against 3rd party databases
17:22:35 <Scott_WUaS> :)
17:22:38 <sjoerddebruin> Jianhui67: Does your browser console say something?
17:22:41 <DanielK_WMDE> Lydia_WMDE: if we allow user created summaries, they should be used in addition to what we have now, not instead.
17:23:33 <Lydia_WMDE> the result of constraint checks and checks against 3rd party databases will then be used to display little indicators next to a statement in case it is problematic
17:23:47 <Lydia_WMDE> i hope this way more people become aware of issues and can help fix them
17:24:35 <sjoerddebruin> Do you have any names of databases that are supported? :)
17:24:38 <Lydia_WMDE> we'll also add more sister projects. the next ones to get access to the interwiki links are meta, mediawiki and wikispecies
17:24:59 <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: in the first version the german national library. it can be extended later
17:25:25 <sjoerddebruin> What happened to MusicBrainz?
17:25:34 <Lydia_WMDE> and last but not least we'll have a student research everything around editing wikidata from outside wikidata (wikipedia for example)
17:25:41 <DanielK_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: they don't offer usable dumps
17:25:51 <Scott_WUaS> sjoerddebruin and Lydia_WMDE: are these all supported - https://tools.wmflabs.org/mix-n-match/ ?
17:25:58 <sjoerddebruin> DanielK_WMDE: Ah, okay. Thought I saw a screenshot back then.
17:26:02 <Lydia_WMDE> yeah. not impossible to fix but for the students it was too much to start
17:26:21 <Lydia_WMDE> Scott_WUaS: no
17:26:27 <DanielK_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: yes, we went for MusicBrainz first, but it turned out to be impractical. you basically have to run their software in order to use their dumps
17:26:29 <Scott_WUaS> thanks
17:26:36 <sjoerddebruin> DanielK_WMDE: yikes
17:26:46 <Jianhui67> I use Google Chrome sjoerddebruin
17:26:54 <Lydia_WMDE> alright - this is it for my overview
17:27:08 <Lydia_WMDE> Polyglot: do you want to talk for a few minutes about osm?
17:27:14 <Polyglot> yes
17:27:27 <sjoerddebruin> Jianhui67: Okay, do other Javascripts work when merge.js doesn't work?
17:27:28 <DanielK_WMDE> Scott_WUaS: would be awesome to support all those. but constraint checks require a lot more detailed import than just matching up the identifiers. a lot of work for so many sorces, all using different data structures
17:27:36 <Jianhui67> Yea
17:27:50 <sjoerddebruin> Hm, weird. Do you know how to see Javascript errors?
17:27:57 <Lydia_WMDE> Polyglot: the floor is yours
17:28:00 <Scott_WUaS> DanielK_WMDE: thanks
17:28:02 <Polyglot> I created a Lua module, my very first experience with Scribunto.
17:28:25 <Polyglot> It's hard to link from wikidata to Openstreetmap, so we link in the other direction
17:28:39 <Polyglot> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata
17:28:53 <DanielK_WMDE> Polyglot: why/how is it hard?
17:29:13 <Polyglot> on OSM objects it's possible to link directly to wikidata, or to describe who is the artist, or who is the subject
17:29:33 <Polyglot> the problem on the Openstreetmap side, is that our identifiers aren't stable
17:29:59 <DanielK_WMDE> oh right, that's bad
17:30:02 <Polyglot> an object can start as a node, but the be converted to a closed line (for a building)
17:30:04 <DanielK_WMDE> that also means no stable URLs
17:30:31 <Polyglot> or it can start as a closed line (for landuse) but then become a relation (multipolygon)
17:30:48 <Polyglot> so linking to an object is simply not practical
17:31:11 <DanielK_WMDE> Polyglot: if you have Qids in OSM, can we use these for linking? I mean, could OSM support URLs that say "show me a map for wikidata item Q64", and it would show berlin?
17:31:16 <Polyglot> Adding a tag (property) to an OSM object, OTOH is possible
17:31:32 <DanielK_WMDE> linking would then be trivial
17:31:48 <Polyglot> indeed, DanielK_WMDE. that's what I'm getting to (slowly)
17:31:58 <DanielK_WMDE> ok, got it :)
17:32:33 <Polyglot> the problem is how to find those objects in OSM, tagged with a Wikidata identifier?
17:32:40 <ricordisamoa> is there an API to get data about an OSM node/way/etc. by Wikidata id?
17:32:48 <Polyglot> The solution is called Overpass, a way to query Openstreetmap data
17:33:14 <Polyglot> but then the problem becomes: how to write a query for it that works without too much fuss?
17:33:22 <Polyglot> So I created this module:
17:33:35 <Polyglot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module:OSM
17:33:52 <Polyglot> It has test cases, which (hopefully) showcase the possibilities
17:34:18 <Lydia_WMDE> can you link us to an example?
17:34:22 <Polyglot> You can click on those, then you get redirected to Overpass Turbo
17:34:31 <ricordisamoa> can we run the query programmatically?
17:34:40 <Polyglot> which shows you the objects on a dynamic map
17:34:42 <ricordisamoa> and get the dataz on WP?
17:34:47 <DanielK_WMDE> Polyglot: hm, a Lua module is great, but we can't use that on Wikidata itself.
17:34:55 <Polyglot> indeed
17:35:08 <Polyglot> the plan was to use them on the various Wikipedias
17:35:18 <Polyglot> I deployed on nl, en, fr and de atm
17:35:32 <DanielK_WMDE> Polyglot: How about a standalone web service that basically works like a URL shortener: you call it with url parameters similar to the arguments you give to the Lua module, and it would simply redirect to the correct OSM URL
17:35:40 <DanielK_WMDE> could run on toollabs
17:36:17 <DanielK_WMDE> Basically, instead of making a module that generates URLs for use in Wikitext, make a qweb service that forwards from a simpel URL with a Q-id to the OSM query.
17:36:26 <DanielK_WMDE> that could then be used from anywhere
17:36:57 <Polyglot> I tried to stay within the framework of Wikimedia, hence the Lua code
17:37:20 <Polyglot> In fact the Overpass Turbo you get redirected to, sort of does what you want
17:37:23 <DanielK_WMDE> works great, i just tried it :)
17:37:30 <ricordisamoa> https://tools.wmflabs.org/wd2osm/Q183
17:37:52 <DanielK_WMDE> ricordisamoa: yea, exactly
17:38:04 <Polyglot> I get a four hundred and four
17:38:17 <ricordisamoa> just an idea
17:38:20 <DanielK_WMDE> it was an example of how such a service could be used
17:38:30 <DanielK_WMDE> now someone needs to write wd2osm :)
17:38:43 <Polyglot> What I liked about the Module is that it used the correct wikidata identifier automatically to build the query
17:38:53 <Lydia_WMDE> pretty cool :)
17:38:56 <Polyglot> lol
17:39:26 <Polyglot> Then I added some more parameters to use it in various circumstances
17:39:46 <ricordisamoa> if overpass has a JSON/XML API we can create an extension on top of Scribunto to run the query directly
17:40:31 <DanielK_WMDE> ricordisamoa: relying on third party services for rendering is a big no-no, afaik
17:40:32 <Polyglot> My personal favourite: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuven#Externe_links
17:40:44 <Polyglot> All streets named after the city of Leuven
17:41:07 <Lydia_WMDE> neat
17:41:40 <ricordisamoa> DanielK_WMDE: isn't there an OSM mirror on wmflabs?
17:41:47 <Polyglot> Yes, it's always an external link
17:41:55 <sjoerddebruin> Since a few days, ricordisamoa.
17:42:01 <Polyglot> They are working on that ricordisamoa
17:42:25 <Lydia_WMDE> Polyglot: anything else you want to show? or should we move on to general questions/discussion
17:42:29 <Polyglot> but it's early stages, and it doesn't do what this module does: query for wikidata tags in OSM data
17:42:47 <DanielK_WMDE> ricordisamoa: there is a tile server. probably no overpass service. but there might be, who knows.
17:42:49 <Polyglot> I'm done, thank you for your attention
17:42:55 <Lydia_WMDE> :)
17:43:11 <Polyglot> stepping down from the platform :-)
17:43:14 <Lydia_WMDE> hehe
17:43:16 <Lydia_WMDE> alright
17:43:24 <DanielK_WMDE> ricordisamoa: however, relying on labs fro rendering would probably also raise eyebrows. For stuff injected dynamically, labs is fine. But for the static rendering... probably not
17:43:24 <Lydia_WMDE> then let's get to questions
17:43:33 <ricordisamoa> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Openstreetmap_Databases
17:43:34 <Scott_WUaS> Thanks, Polyglot - and great!
17:43:43 <hweyl> I have a question about Librarybase
17:43:46 <sjoerddebruin> Lydia_WMDE: Any news about the new item UI?
17:44:13 <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: work in progress. next step will be the referencing improvements i talked about
17:44:36 <Lydia_WMDE> and identifier separation
17:44:43 <sjoerddebruin> <3
17:44:48 <Lydia_WMDE> \o/
17:45:20 <Lydia_WMDE> hweyl: ask away
17:45:20 <hweyl> How does/ does the creation of Librarybase change how we do references?
17:46:06 <Lydia_WMDE> for me it is too early to tell
17:47:04 <hweyl> If a reference is already in Wikidata is it acceptable to use that Qid as a reference? Or should we add the reference to Librarybase and use that?
17:47:58 <Lydia_WMDE> i don't think librarybase is at the stage yet where this is even an option tbh
17:48:10 <Lydia_WMDE> it's only been around for days and is a prototype :)
17:48:13 <Lydia_WMDE> though a cool one
17:48:21 <harej> The creation of Librarybase doesn't really change anything yet.
17:48:23 <hweyl> Thank you for the clarification
17:49:19 <Lydia_WMDE> more questions?
17:49:30 <sjoerddebruin> Lydia_WMDE: how are we going to specify plural words for units?
17:49:31 <harej> My hope is that Librarybase will eventually make itself redundant and everything it will contain will be put into Wikidata, but that will depend on what Wikidata will agree to accept.
17:49:32 <Scott_WUaS> I have two items/questions: 1) in what ways were Wikidatans here involved in this IBM-Wikipedia recent conversation - http://techcrunch.com/2015/09/21/ibm-watson-wont-be-replacing-humans-any-time-soon/ - “about the accuracy of Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia. In just a few seconds, Watson then reviewed all of the articles on Wikipedia to determine if it was a reliable source or not. After reviewing the body of
17:49:33 <Scott_WUaS> evidence, it concluded that it was in fact an accurate source of information”? What was involved in this for Wikidata? dennyvrandecic: the person in the picture besides IBM’s Director of Research Dr. John Kelly looks a little like you? What new code had to be written if any for this project? How easy would it be to extend this to other languages? And 2) …
17:49:57 <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: i'd like us to move to unit symbols instead
17:50:43 <sjoerddebruin> Ah, nice.
17:50:49 <sjoerddebruin> Everything is better than this.
17:50:57 <Lydia_WMDE> :)
17:51:02 <Lydia_WMDE> yeah it's still rough
17:51:18 <sjoerddebruin> Where are the unit bot imports!?! :(
17:51:19 <dennyvrandecic> Scott_WUaS: no that's not me :)
17:51:22 <Lydia_WMDE> but i opted for doing a rough version earlier since i know it was holding back wikidata
17:51:30 <Scott_WUaS> 2) In preparing to make a present of CC wiki World University and School, which is like Wikipedia/Wikidata in 289 languages with best STEM CC OpenCourseWare (e.g. accrediting on CC MIT OCW in 7 languages and CC Yale OYC) and planned in all 7,941+ languages and 257+ countries, for CC Wikidata's third birthday, I'd like to follow with an inquiry about how best to do this in these office hours. I just spoke with the WMF
17:51:30 <Scott_WUaS> Languages Engineering Team about this last Wednesday -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW5l7fNeMQg- and have been in touch also with Magnus Manske
17:51:32 <Scott_WUaS> :)
17:51:36 <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: dexbot at least is importing
17:51:43 <sjoerddebruin> :O
17:51:55 <ricordisamoa> are unit symbols supposed to be localised?
17:52:40 <ricordisamoa> e.g. with a special item for the symbol or a multilingualtext on the unit's item?
17:53:23 <Polyglot> I would make sense if they were
17:53:34 <Lydia_WMDE> ricordisamoa: supposed to be in our plan you mean? we've not gotten there yet to settle on details
17:53:46 <Polyglot> I guess Greeks use lambda and Cyrillic uses their L for liter
17:53:46 <ricordisamoa> ok thx
17:53:54 <Scott_WUaS> 2) (cont.) This would also involve exploring developing CC MIT OCW in CC Wikipedia/Wikidata (and CC WUaS too). Would it make sense to turn all parts of a MIT OCW course into Wikipedia pages for translation reasons into all 200+ countries’ main langauges?
17:56:22 <Lydia_WMDE> Scott_WUaS: you're asking this question a lot :) I think no-one has any meaningful answer because it is very vague on what you are actually trying to do and how. i recommend taking the time to write a realistic proposal down in detail.
17:57:16 <Lydia_WMDE> more questions? we have about 5 minutes left
17:57:18 <Scott_WUaS> Lydia_WMDE: Thanks, Lydia! (I hope too WUaS might be a growth story for WMDE for example)
17:57:24 <Scott_WUaS> will do
17:57:27 <Lydia_WMDE> great
17:58:12 <Lydia_WMDE> ok then i have one:
17:58:27 <Lydia_WMDE> are you all excited about wikidata's 3rd birthday late next month?
17:58:28 <Lydia_WMDE> :D
17:58:37 <sjoerddebruin> Still making plans for it.
17:58:41 * Lydia_WMDE can't really believe it's 3 years already
17:58:43 <matej_suchanek> yes
17:59:06 <Scott_WUaS> What will the online birthday cakes look like ? :) - in javascript ?
17:59:12 <Lydia_WMDE> haha
17:59:19 <Lydia_WMDE> we'll see!
17:59:34 <ricordisamoa> ~=[,,_,,]:3
17:59:51 <Polyglot> Do you know this: http://tools.wmflabs.org/wikidata-todo/quick_statements.php
18:00:09 <Lydia_WMDE> yeah - neat tool by magnus
18:00:16 <Polyglot> It would be great if it were possible to create such statements based on an existing entry
18:00:36 <Tpt_> I am so exited about the 3rd birthday
18:00:36 <Scott_WUaS> very cool
18:00:54 <Polyglot> to change where needed, then add a new 'brother/sister' item
18:01:06 <Tpt_> And I have a specific question: About the identifier datatype, how do you plan to manage the case where the displayed link is not the best URI related to the id. For example, with ISBN, we want to link to Special:Book but a good URI is urn:ISBN:.
18:01:29 <Lydia_WMDE> Tpt_: we'll have different ones for display and export
18:01:35 <Lydia_WMDE> two properties already exist
18:01:48 <Tpt_> Lydia_WMDE: great. So, problem solved :-)
18:01:56 <Lydia_WMDE> indeed!
18:02:38 <Lydia_WMDE> anything else? or should we wrap it up for today?
18:02:45 <Polyglot> It would also be nice if it were easier to add a reference once, then copy it to the other properties (but I guess that's what you were talking about before)
18:02:57 <Scott_WUaS> polyglot: agreed
18:02:59 <sjoerddebruin> Polyglot: There is a gadget for that.
18:03:04 <sjoerddebruin> (only per item sadly)
18:03:05 <Polyglot> aha!
18:03:09 <Lydia_WMDE> jep :)
18:03:18 <ricordisamoa> I'm working on a prototype to edit more items at once
18:03:25 <ricordisamoa> https://tools.wmflabs.org/wikidata-slicer/ doesn't work yet
18:03:38 <ricordisamoa> demo here https://tools.wmflabs.org/wikidata-slicer/demo?ids=Q13406268&ids=new+item&ids=Q15397819
18:03:59 <dennyvrandecic> I hope LibraryBase will get folded into Wikidata, and this might make it easier to do references
18:04:29 <Lydia_WMDE> ricordisamoa: looks interesting. keep us posted!
18:05:15 <Polyglot> I'll have a look at it. Great to hear work is done on it
18:05:38 <ricordisamoa> in the future it should help solve interwiki conflicts
18:06:50 <Lydia_WMDE> alright folks. time to wrap up. thanks everyone for coming! :)
18:06:57 <Polyglot> Thank you
18:07:10 <Lydia_WMDE> i'm pretty proud of what we all achieved over the past 3 months
18:07:13 <Polyglot> Good evening
18:07:20 <Polyglot> As you should be :-)
18:08:10 <Lydia_WMDE> #endmeeting