Jaden Smith has always been a weird guy.

As a teengager, he spent his days building pyramids in his backyard, contemplating his own existence, and recording rap songs. Before long, he was making headlines for his off-the-wall behavior. At his high school prom in 2015, he showed up in a white batsuit (which he also wore to Ye’s wedding). Then he one-upped himself by carrying his own hair in his hands as an accessory at the MET Gala in 2017. In other words, he was living exactly the kind of life you would hope Will Smith’s youngest son would be living.

So now that he’s spent 26 years on planet Earth, has he changed? Has he settled into adulthood and ditched his eccentric ways? Is he, dare I say, getting more normal?

Hell no. I’m happy to report that he’s weirder than ever.

This week, Jaden showed up to Complex’s Los Angeles office wearing custom army fatigues covered in small plastic balls (a Jaden original), and he seemed to be in a daze. When the interview started, he wasn't interested in answering my questions earnestly, so he responded with completely unrelated answers (mostly quotes from the movie Twilight, for some reason). On two separate occasions, he pulled a wadded piece of paper out of his pocket and read the quotes out loud.

I responded by asking the only thing that made sense at the time: “Why is it important to you to be weird?”

That’s when he finally cracked. Tilting his head forward and attempting to hide a smile, he admitted that there have been times in his life when he desperately wanted people to think he was “normal,” but he ended up just feeling misunderstood. So now he prefers to be weird.

For the next 45 minutes, Jaden intermittently let his guard down as he updated me on his life and spoke about his new project, 2024: A Case Study Of The Long Term Effects Of Young Love. At times, I felt like I was an unwitting participant in a bizarre science experiment. At others, I felt like I was actually getting to know the real Jaden.

This is a guy who was born into a life that’s far from normal, and instead of resisting that reality, he’s leaning in. Embracing the surreal nature of his own unusual life, he has committed himself to a life as an entertainer (or “inventor,” depending on when you ask him). Today, that means repeatedly reciting quotes from a teen vampire movie, apparently.

Of course, it isn’t all fun and games. Jaden confesses to feeling “really sad” right now, an emotion that directly inspired his new project. He doesn’t go into detail about the specific root of his sadness (when I asked, he responded with yet another perplexing quote from Twilight) but he says he appreciates the way that it connects him with his fans.

The project, which features four melodic rap songs about the highs and lows of romantic relationships, is described by Jaden as “a mental snapshot of me right now where I am in my life,” and he hopes it will comfort his fans who are also dealing with sadness. With a little luck, he might even find out about his own mental state in the process. As he puts it, “I'm hoping that I can leave enough information behind for psychologists of the future to look back and be like, ‘Man, what was really wrong with this guy? There's some serious stuff that's wrong with him. What is it?’"

My conversation with Jaden Smith is below, in which he discusses his childhood, touring with Young Thug, the influence of Tyler, The Creator, new music, and a whole lot more.

What takes up most of your time these days? What's a day in your life like?
You know, I'd never really given much thought to how I would die, but dying in the place of someone I love seems like a pretty good way to go.

That's what's been on your mind?
Yeah.

What else has been on your mind lately?
Deep underground military bases.

That's what the title of your new song "D.U.M.B." stands for, right?
Yeah. The whole song is about deep underground military bases. That's a real thing that exists.

How did you start thinking about that?
It's the fluorescence.

What's a recent obsession of yours?
Plato's cave.

Since researching Plato's cave, has it made you think about the current world differently?
Yes.

What have you learned?
[Pulls a piece of paper out of his pocket and reads a quote.] Sometimes I wonder if I was seeing the same things through my eyes that the rest of the world was seeing through theirs, or maybe there was a glitch in my brain.

Why did you just read that?
I knew I was going to come here today, so I just wanted to have some stuff written down that I could say.

A year ago, you tweeted, "Actively working on being more weird." Why is it important to you to be weird?
Because I went through a lot of my life trying to be normal. It was a really big deal for me for a long time that people thought that I was normal. And that bothered me after a while. I started to feel like people didn't really understand me or see me, and I wasn't really trying to show anybody that. Sometimes it's so frustrating to watch people try to follow the “normal” thing to do when that's not what they really want to do in their art and everything. It's very frustrating. And then you see people fall into it and generations of people fall into it. So I actively try to be myself.

And being yourself is being... weird?
What a sick, masochistic lion.

I've always felt like the whole point of being an entertainer is to be weird as hell and push boundaries. The rest of us have to be "normal" at our regular jobs, so it would be disappointing and boring if someone like you, who makes art, was afraid to be weird.
Yeah. I think it's just about trying to bring in a different perspective to the world so people have a bunch of different perspectives to look at.

What's your purpose?
Just to be.

You're dropping an EP this week…
I like to call it a mini project.

What can you tell me about it?
2024: A Case Study of the Long Term Effects of Young Love is really a snapshot of my mental state currently, when it comes to trying to be a human and relate with people in the digital age that we live in. The mental landscapes of people are changing and the psychology of people is changing. And this is a mental snapshot of me right now where I am in my life.

Why did you want to put it out right now?
I want to offer that snapshot to the people that want to listen to it, and to the people who are going through stuff and need a distraction. Honestly, I just wanted to make it because I'm sad. I'm sad right now. And it's my sadness that connects me with my community and my fans. I know there's sad people all over the place and if they feel like they're connecting with the project, or with me, or with what I'm going through—or with the song or the melody or the lyric—that's what it's for. That's what it's about. I want everybody to listen to it, but it really was made for a specific group of people.

It sounds like it's also an outlet for you.
Yeah. That's my way of opening up and being honest about what's going on with me. For real.

Why is it important to be able to cry?
I just think that you'll fill up with water if you don't. I think people will just fill up with water and drown from the inside. I think that it's important to cry just to get water out of your body.

You've been an advocate for crying for years. You talk about crying a lot, which is rare, especially in hip-hop.
I like to bring a different perspective into hip-hop, and into music in general, where it's like, "Yeah, I'm crying. I'm sad." Everybody's always on the upper hand, but what about the other person that's on the other side of that? Every rap song is about being on the upper hand, like, "Oh, I got all this stuff." And it's like, "What about the person that you got that from?” That's me. I'm the other person.

Although, you can do both.
Yeah, I can do that. Erys comes out sometimes if that happens. But I like to offer a different perspective.

This new EP has an interesting title. 2024: A Case Study of the Long Term Effects of Young Love. Where did that come from?
I'm hoping that I can leave enough information behind for psychologists of the future to look back and be like, "Man, what was really wrong with this guy? There's some serious stuff that's wrong with him. What is it?" And this is me trying to give that first initial psychological assessment in the project, so that they can be like, "Oh, he was like this. He felt like this. He felt like that. What does that mean?" So that somebody could really do that assessment. It's been a process of working with my therapist while making this project and I'm just trying to give that snapshot.

You mentioned being sad. Where is the sadness coming from?
You should put your seatbelt on.

OK. So you prefer not to answer that question. I understand. Let's talk about your song "D.U.M.B." On Instagram you wrote, "It's really about how much I hate hurting people I love with my actions and how much we can feel dumb sometimes as we simultaneously try to find and be ourselves in the digital age we all live in." I thought that was interesting. What inspired this song?
This song was written almost two years ago, and it's about that. It's about the case study. It's about the snapshot of the mental space. And it's about being in a relationship, trying to figure it out, and feeling dumb. That's a real thing that happens.

I can't speak for other generations, but I know with our generation, there's a lot of self-doubt and getting mad at yourself and social media making you feel super dumb. That's something that's happened to me a lot. I'm trying to connect with my audience with these emotions, and hopefully that song makes somebody else feel less dumb. It's also for people on the other side where they're like, "Oh, this person is being dumb. I'm going to put this on and I'm going to feel better."

Even though you wrote the song two years ago, most fans will probably think you just wrote it, so they'll read into things. Do you think it's important to explain that? Or do you not care?
I mean, I like to explain it. Everybody knows the song is about deep underground military bases and I'm open to talking about that. I really try to put stuff out and just let people feel however they want to feel about it.

What are your studio sessions like these days?
I record completely alone.

What kind of environment do you set up?
I put on Twilight, drink rose, smoke weed, and start recording.

On "D.U.M.B.," there's a line where you say, "Thugger said he's proud of me, free slimey." What's the story behind that?
I went on tour with Thug. He's the coolest person ever. He gave me a diamond ring that was a pinky ring for him, but it barely fit on my middle finger.

We would hang out every single day on tour. Well, not every day because sometimes he would miss shows because he was dealing with some things. Sometimes they would come to me and be like, "Yo, you're going to be direct support to J. Cole today because Thug's not here."

But he used to always come into my dressing room and be like, "Bro, there's no girls in here." And I'd be like, "Oh, you know, I'm just... Uh..." And he'd be like, "Bro, I haven't seen you with any girls! I'm really worried." And I would go and hang out with people just so that he would see me, so he wouldn't worry. That was the best tour experience ever. Free Thug, bro. Yeah. Straight up. He's the best.

"Roses" is a beautiful song. How did that come to life?
I hadn't released a song in a long time, so I was like, "Let's make it a sad song." I locked in my homie Askel for a while, and we just did it.

What's the story behind "Gorgeous"?
That song's about my friend. A lot of people can second-guess themselves, especially in the digital age that we live in. So I wanted this particular person to understand how much they mean to me and how beautiful I think they are. And I wanted it to also be an anthem for all of the people out there that might feel stressed out and trying to hold themselves to certain beauty standards or whatever. This song is for them to feel free, open, and good about themselves. That's what the song is about. I wrote it for whatever reason, but this is another anthem for people all around the world to know that they really are gorgeous.

"The Coolest Part 2" comes over a decade after the original. What made you want to revisit that?
How long?! I can't believe I've been rapping for this long. That doesn't even make any sense. But yeah, I think part twos and part threes of songs are genius and I've been meaning to release "The Coolest Part 2" for forever. I've had it since I made the ERYS album in 2019, and I'm really happy that it's coming out.

When you think of the teenage version of yourself who made that song 12 years ago, what do you think? How are you different now?
The older that I get, the more scared I get to even just walk outside. I don't think I was really like that then. Now it takes a lot for me to just get out of my bedroom, out of my house. Back then, it wasn't really like that.

So you think that Jaden was more free?
Yeah. But I was scared to do other stuff. You know what I mean?

What's one thing that you think is the same?
I'm still weird as shit.

When you see people re-share photos and videos from back then, what do you think?
I can't believe that I was swagging 12 years ago. It's crazy. [Laughs.] I can't believe it. I can't imagine what everybody else was thinking, seeing me at whatever age I was doing with whatever the hell I was doing. Fucking hilarious. It's so funny.

But you generally have fond memories from that time, right?
Yeah. I was definitely having fun. I was also going through my own little sad things then, too. But yeah, I was having fun as hell. Definitely.

You've had lots of different chapters in your life and career so far. What defines this current chapter?
Let me see if I have anything here. [Reaches in pocket and pulls out the piece of paper again.] “That's the beautiful thing about being human. Things change.”

You write about relationships a lot on this project, and I like how open you are. But then at the same time, the internet's weird. And I feel like there's a weird fascination with your relationships, which probably makes you not want to be as open and expressive...
Damn, there's a weird fascination with my relationships on the internet? Is that a thing?

I've noticed it, yeah. It's weird.
Oh, okay. That's crazy. That's cool, I guess. I didn't know that.

Yeah.
What were you saying?

Do you ever have moments where you're like, "I don't want to share as much about myself in my music," because it's weird to put things out there?
No, I don't really think that. I think that's kind of my job, honestly. I think that sometimes, but it's like, I think I've got to just let it all out. I don't want to disrespect anyone or fuck up anybody else's privacy, which I have done before... And I don't like to do that. I'd like to keep it about me. But yeah, I have to talk about it.

Yeah, I feel like that's what makes your art good.
That's what makes it real and honest and relatable for certain people. So I've got to talk about it. I've been in a lot of situations where people really don't want me to... Yeah, that's a touchy thing for me in my life. But the people around me kind of know this is what I do. Every time I do anything, I'm like, "I'm going to write a song about this. I'm going to make art around this. I'm going to connect to this feeling and then connect to the people that are connected to this feeling."

I respect that.
Thank you.

What is something you've noticed about the world that you think more people should know?
That the ocean is the dopest thing that we have, and we should go inside of it and not fuck it up. Honestly. The ocean is sick. It's really the dopest thing.

Environmental causes have always been really important to you. Was there something that sparked that?
I just love nature. It's the only thing that doesn't stress me out crazy. I love going outside and shit. Like, that's the whole day. Like, get drunk and just go outside. It's awesome. Biggest vibe. Sit on a river bed and just drink up, you know what I mean? [Laughs.] And just get rocked by the river bed. Hell yeah.

I feel like a lot of people can sense that things are fucked up right now. There's a lot of sadness, and everyone's like, "Things are terrible. Civilization is off track." What do you think has pushed us off course?
[Jaden starts rapping] "Aztec princess, sister-in-law of Egyptian Goddess, studying syntax. Something only stars can witness, I've had visions of space whips moving with the swiftness. The systems, the pilots never even been in. Ancient African star travelers taking missions. The history I was given will baffle the competition. I question your competence. The false Gods have driven us so far from the promising land. We had confidence back in Chemic galactic politics. Dogon priest with a missing piece of a granite rocketship. The broken sands of man's logic. A lost city. Socrates and Plato like to talk to me."

Switching gears back to music… What's your favorite thing about hip-hop right now? What makes you excited about what's going on around music?
I think people are starting to utilize the full scale of the internet when it comes to their music. There are accepted places where people expect music, and then there's other places. Kind of like what Virgil said, it's all about the container that you put something in, and where you put the art piece will heavily change the perception of it. The internet is massive, and there are just these little sectors where we release music. But there's so much more to the internet than that. There are so many places that MP3 files and music can live, and I think that we're starting to experiment with that and explore that.

I mean, some of the biggest rap songs of the year were put on Instagram and not DSPs...
I love that.

Have you thought about experimenting with different release methods?
Definitely. I have a project that I'm working on that's for those types of people that go to the broken corners of the internet and hang out there.

This year, James Blake has been talking about how today’s music consumption methods are broken, so he’s been playing around with new ways to do it. Have you ever considered creating that technology yourself?
Yeah. My first project, CTV1, was released as an app. That was my way of doing that, and I thought it was really cool. You had to get my album on the app store. That was tight. I think stuff like that is dope, and everything James Blake is doing is super dope. As artists, it's our job to not just make music and follow in the status quo, it's to do the James Blake thing and really start thinking about: "How is it released? How is it distributed? How can I affect this process? How can I use my creative mind to make this more efficient for the fans or for the artist?" I think that's our job, to question the algorithm and to work around it and try to figure out new things.

What is something you hope changes or improves about the music industry?
I just hope that artists continue to have more control over defined details of what they do and are encouraged to step out of boxes and are allowed to step out of boxes. But I don't have any major complaints. I think that we have everything we need right now to create some really dope stuff, and the people that are really focused are doing it.

One thing that I hope changes is the weird instinct from fans to always tear shit down. There have been a lot of conversations lately about how there's a lack of new stars, but then whenever a new artist pops up with some motion, people call them an "industry plant" and tear them down. And it happens to big stars, too. There's just a lot of negativity being thrown at you guys all the time. How do you deal with that?
People are going to catch their vibe. And I've really got to just focus on catching mine. Whoever wants the music, I just want them to have access to it. And the people that don't want it or don't like it? I feel it. No worries. You got it. This is really just an emotional outlet for me. I just want to connect with those people that feel that way. If you feel that way, we're locked in. If you don't feel that way, you're going to find it, but maybe it's not going to be here with me.

In January, Kid Cudi tweeted, "Me and Jaden are going to make an album for all the trippy kids out there searching beyond for something, searching for that feeling. To be alive." Do you think that'll ever happen?
Yes. One hundred percent.

Is there any update on it? Are you guys working?
Cudi's not here standing right next to me, so I'm not going to start talking about that. But that album is going to be made. 100%.

How did Tyler, The Creator change the world?
I mean, how did he not? That's a whole other long ass interview that we could do. But I mean, this guy… He made so many people feel so seen and like they could really be themselves. That guy needs to be studied, too. Nobody even understands what happened with that whole situation. I mean, people are seeing it now. But I've been telling people for a long time, like, "You have no idea." These guys, all of them, are insane. Genius. It's crazy. He changed television, interviews, fashion, skateboarding, music.... He changed everything. All of them. Not just him. Everybody. They all changed everything. They're still killing the game. It's insane. Flog Gnaw… They're those guys. It's them.

What is something about your real life that you think would surprise people?
I think people would probably be surprised to know that when I really care about somebody in my life, and when I really love them, I come to them and I'm like, "Hey, can I build you a bed? Can I build your bed frame?" And I'll go away for a long time and get my circular hand saw and my drills. My Ryobi shit. And I'll literally build them a bed frame. Then I'll write a note for them and then drill it into the bed frame so that they can't read the note until such a long time has passed that they actually have to disassemble the bed. And then they disassemble the bed and they find this note in it and shit, and it's from me. I'm a carpenter. I build shit with my hands when I'm bored. Any opportunity I get to build somebody a bed, I will.

I love that answer, but I'll be honest: I'm not surprised about that at all. [Laughs.] That's actually very on-brand for you.
Yeah, that's my thing.

OK, last question. What's the meaning of life?
To love and to be loved.