Record Number: 1999 /163 Cos

THE HIGH COURT

IN THE MATTER OF THE COMPANIES ACTS 1963 to 1990
AND IN THE MATTER OF PART II OF THE COMPANIES ACT 1990 AND SECTIONS 8 AND 17
AND IN THE MATTER OF ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED
(formerly GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED,
ANSBACHER LIMITED and CAYMAN INTERNATIONAL BANK AND TRUST COMPANY
LIMITED)

R E P O R T OF T H E I N S P E C T O R S

A P P O I N T E D TO E N Q U I R E I N T O T H E

A F F A I R S OF A N S B A C H E R (CAYMAN)

LIMITED

Published by Order of the Court made on 24 June 2002

V O L U M E [ 1 2 ] : A P P E N D I X X V ( 1 2 7 ) TO X V ( 1 4 2 )
 ISBN 0-7557-1355-9

© Government of Ireland 2002

Appendix XV (127) Mr James Desmond Traynor, deceased
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
James Desmond Traynor.

a) Trust deed dated 27 March 1972.

b) Trust deed dated 5 May 1993.

c) Letter of 14 December 1993 - JA Furze to IIB.

Appendix XV (127) (1) (a)
THIS INDENTURE OF SUTTLIiMliNT is made the XI 'day o£ H«xrei*.
A.U. 1972 HETWU15N Potor A. Tumburo of 2520, De Largo Drive
Fort Lauderdule, Florida, U.S.A. (hereinafter called "the
Settlor") of the one part and GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST
LIMITED a company incorporated under the laws of the Cayman
I MMMMM* ^ M.

Islands and earring on business therin (hereinafter called

"the Trustees" which term shall also include any additional
or successor trustee or trustees hereof) of the other part*

WHEREAS the Settlor has caused the property

doscribed in the First Schedule hereto (which together
with the money investments and property of the time being
representing the same and any additions or diminishments
thereto and any futher property becoming subject to the
trusts hereof is hereinafter called "the Trust Fund") to
be duly transferred into the name or under the control of
the Trustees with the intent that the same shall be held
upon the trusts hereinafter expressed

NOW THIS SETTLEMENT WITNESSETH as follows:

1. The Trustees shall stand possessed of the Trust

Fund during the period commencing on the date of execution
of these presents and terminating on the expiration of
twenty (20) years after the death of the last survivor of
the lineal descendents now living on His Late Majesty King
George the Fifth or on the expiration of seventy years from
the date hereof (whichever shall be the earlier) (said period
being /
being hereinafter called "the Accumulation Period" and
said termination date being hereinafter called "the
fixed Date") UPON TRUST as to investments or property other
than money either to permit all or any of the sane to remain
aa invested for as long as the Trustees shall in their
absolute discretion deem fit or to sell call in or convert
into money all or any of such Investments or property
UPON TRUST as to money including the money arising from
any such sale calling In or conversion as aforesaid to
Invest the same In or upon any of the investments herein-
after authorised

2. TUB Trustees may apply or invest the Trust Fund

In the purchase of or at iuteruut upon the security of such
stocks funds shares securities options or other Investments
or property whether real or personal movable or Immovable
of whatever nature and wherever Bitu&te (including any
fractional or undivided interest therein and including the
purchase maintenance or Improvement ..of a freehold or lease-
hold dwellinghouse situate anywhere in the world for use aa
a residence) and whether involving liability or not and
whether producing income or not or upon such personal credit
with or without security as the Trustees in their absolute
discretion shall think fit with power"from time to time to
vary such Investments for others of a like nature (yet being
under no duty to diversify investments) and with power to
hold cash funds uninvested and other non-income producing
property to the extent that the Trusteoa shall have the same
full and unrestricted powers of investing the Trust Fund in
all respects as if they were absolute owners beneficially

"I [ f]('ll /
 entitled PROVIDED however that in the professed execution
oI the truuta and powers hereof the Trustees shall not be
liable for any lost* to the Trust Fund arising by reason of
any investments Made In good faith or by reason of any
mistake or omission made in good faith by the Trustees or
by reason of any other matter or thing except wilful and
individual fraud or wilful and individual wrong-**-lag on the
part of the Trustees who are sought to be made liable without
limiting the generality of the foregoing the Trustees aire
hereby specifically empowered to make investments and to
*

- acquire property without any requirement of diversification

even though such investments or property may be highly
speculative or not of a type which are ordinarily legal or
suitable trust Investments or holdings in -particular the
Trustees nay margin or hypothecate trust assets or securities
in whole or in part sell short purchase or sell options puts
call or other contracts or securities or commodities and
carry on trading activities of every type whatsoever

3. ' TUB Trustees shall have the power to sell lease

or exchange and to grant options to purchase lease or exchange
any property movable or immovable (which expression shall be
deemed always to include any part or share of any such property
which may at any time constitute the whole or any part of the
Trust Fund)either at public auction or private sale lor such
consideration and on such terms credit or security as the
Trustees may deem advisable and whether for the purpose of
re-investment distribution or diversion and no purchaser on
any Bale by the Trustees or other person dealing with the

Trustees / .....
 A'agc.' riitu'

Trustees shall be concerned to Inquire Into the propriety ;

or validity of any act of the Trustees or to see to the

application of auy money paid or property transferred to
or upon the order of the Trustees

4. During the Accumulation Period the Trustees

shall stand possessed of the Trust Fund and the income
thereof upon the following trusts that is to says-
(a) Upon Trust for all or any to the exclusion
of the others or other of the persons described In the
Second Schedule hereto (hereinafter called "the Beneflolaries")
iiii such shares and in such manner and subject to such limit-
ations and provisions as the Trustees in their absolute and
uncontrolled discretion at any time or times before the
Fixed Date by any doed or deeds revocable or- irrevocable
without transgressing the rule against perpetuities may
appoint and so that by any such appointment the Trustees
nay confer upon any appointee any valid power or powers of
appointment In favour of any other Beneficiary AND it is
expressly provided (without prejudice to the generality of
the foregoing) that the Trustees may appoint on discretionary
trusts and that such trusts may include as objects of tJie
powers as regards income of the Trust Fund any Beneficiary
and may dispose of the whole or any part of the Trust Fund
to the Trustees of any other Settlement (in existence at
the time of such disposition and whether in accordance with
the laws of the Cayman Islands or not) under which any
Beneficiary is a beueflciary to be held as an accretion
to the Trust Fund thereof and subject to any such appoint-
ment and so far as the same may not extend
(b) /
 Page Five

(b) Upon Trust to accumulate any income of

the Trust Fund in the way of compound interest by invest-
ing the same and the resulting income therefrom in any of
the investments hereinbefore authorised and adding such
accumulations and resulting income as accretions to and
as a part of the Trust Fund
(c) Provided always that the Trustee?; in their
absolute discretion may pay or apply at any time and from
time to time during the Accumulation Period all or any part
of the income or capital of the Trust Fund to or for the
benefit of the Beneficiaries and if more than one for
any' one or more to the exclusion of the other or others
of them and in such shares as the Trustees may in their
absolute discretion think fit
(d) Upon the termination of the Trust on the
Fixed Date Upon Trust as to the balance of the Trust
Fund to or for the benefit of the children of Peter A.Tamburo
as shall be living immediately before the Fixed Date if
more than one in equal shares per stirpes and subject as
aforesaid the Trustees shall hold the capital and income
of the Trust Fund in Trust for the United States Organization
for Cancer Research and the receipts of the Treasurer for the
time being*of such Charity shall be a good discharge to the
Trustees.
(e) Any payment or application of the Trust
Fund to or for the benefit of any one or more of the'
parties hereinbefore enumerated may be made either outright
or in trust for the said party or parties which trust or
trusts may be formed by the Trustees with such
provisions/
 togu Six

provisions and upau such terms sad conditions Including \#

trusts And powers exercisable at the discretion of as/
person or persons as the Trustees may In their absplute
discretion thluk fit

5. IN addition to all the powers vested la. the '

Trustees expressly or by implication hereunder or by law
or statute the Trustees shall have all the following powers
and nay In their absolute discretion exercise all or any of
the same froai ti.nu to time in such aanner and to such extent
if at all as nay sees to thea desirable
(a) To receive additional property or donations
by gift or will or by the provisions of any other trust or
trusts or otherwise froa any person or persons aa additions
to this Trust and aw part of the Trust Fund and to hold the
same upon the Trusts herein set forth and to adalnister
such additions uudur the provisions hereof
(b) VIth respect to any property constituting
the whole or part of the Trust Fund to exercise all powers whle'.
Individual beneficial owners might exercise without being
restricted in any way by the office of trustee Including
(without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing) the.
following powers
(I) To promote and Incorporate conpanies to
carry on any business whatsoever and power to
liquidate the same and distribute their assets
in specie or otherwise
(II) To vote upon or in respect of any shares
securities bonds notes or other evidence or
t nteru.vt / . . ..
 Page Seven

interest in or obligations of any corporation

• •

trust asnociation or concern whether or not

Affecting the security or the apparent security
i-
of any part of the Trust fund or the purchase
or sale or lease of the assets of any such
corporation trust association or concern and
(ill) To give proxies or powers of attorney
with or without power of substitution for voting
or acting on behalf of. the Trustees as the owners
of any such property and
(iv) To participate in and consent to any
corporate reorganisation consolidation merger
liquidation dissolution sale or lease or in and
to any other change in any corporation or in its
financial structure affecting any securities or
other property held hereunder and
(v) To become a party to any voting trust
or deposit any securities or property held here-
' under with any protective reorganisation or
similar committee or in any voting trust or with
any depositary designated thereby and
(vi) To exercise or concur in exercising the
voting and other rights attaching to any securities
for the time being forming part of the Trust Fund
so as to become a Director or other officer or
employee of any company and to be entitled to
vote for and to be paid and to retain for the
Trustees' use and benefit reasonable remuneration
\for the Trustees' services
 Page Bight

(vii) To hold or deposit any securities or ; ,

other property iu bearer torn or in the naae of
the Trustees or lu the naae of any one of then
being a Trust Corporation or In the name of sons
other persons or partnership or in the naae of a
duly appointed noainee without disclosing the
fiduciary relationship and

(vili) To omit to register bonds or securities

and
(lx) To keep the whole or any part of the
documents relating to aud the aoney lnvestaents
and property comprised in the said Trust fund
within or without the said Caynan Islands

(c) To Invest re-invest and aanage the Trust

Fund either separately or together with other funds to acquire
and retain the shares or securities of investaent coapanles
or investaent trusts whether of the open or closed type and
without notice to anyone to participate in any conaon trust
fund maintained by any corpomte trustee at any time serving
hereunder

(d) To engage the services of an investment adviser

or advisers at the expense of the Trust Fund and without
liability to follow the recoamendations of such adviser or
advisers even though such recommendations may be highly
speculative or not of a type which would ordinarily be legal
or suitable trust investments

(e) To borrow or lend money on such terms

and fronror to such persons including the Beneficiaries as
 i-'ugu Mxuu

without limiting tl>t» generality of the foregoing to margin ,

or hypothecate all or any portions of the Trust Fund

(i) To make execute and deliver deeds conveyance

assignments transfers options leasee-mortgageg instruments of
pledge instruments creating liens contracts and other instrum-
ents sealed or unsealed to rage or erect any building or othej
structures and to make any kind ol improvements which the
Trustees deem proper

(g) Without prejudice to the jurisdiction of

the Court and according; to the respective rights and lnteresti
of the persons Interested to treat as income or capital or
to apportion between income and capital any dividends stock
dividends rights interest rent issues and profits derived froi
any property at any timo comprised in the Trust Fund and
generally to determine what part of the receipts of the Trust
is income and what is capital and whether or not such propert;
is wasting or unproductive or was purchased at a premium or
discount and notwithstanding the time when such dividends
stock dividends rights interest rents issues or profits were
earned accrued declared or paid to make such reserves out of
income or capital as the Trustees deem proper tor expenses
taxes and other liabilities of the Trust to pay from Income
or from capital or to apportion between income and capital
any expenses of making or changing investments and of selling
exchanging or leasing including brokers' commissions and
charges and generally to determine what part of the expenses
of the Trust shall be charged to capital and what part to
Income and to determine as between separate funds and separati
parts or shares the allocation of income gains profits losses
and '"distributions
 (h) To carry on participate or invest
.n.any corporation partnership joint venture or oo-operative
And to enter into such leases contracts or other undertakings
relating to the Trust Fund or any part of it as the Trustees
ihall in their uncontrolled discretion deem advantageous
notwithstanding that such leases contracts or undertakings
extend or may extend beyond the termination of this .Trust

(1) To institute prosecute and defend any

suits« or actions or other proceedings affecting the
Trustees or the Trust Fund or any part thereof to compromise
any matters of difference or compound any debts owing to
them as Trustees or any other claims and to adjust any
disputes in relation to debts or claims against them as
Trustees upon evideuce that to the Trustees shall seem
sufficient and in whole or iu part at public auction or
private sale or otherwise and upon such terms and for such
terms as the Trustees deem advisable to make partition
with the co-owners or joint owners besides the Trust
having any interest in any properties In which the Trustees
are Interested and to make such partition either by sale or
by set-off or by agreement or otherwise (including where
deemed desirable provision for equality of exchange)

(j) To take the opinion or advice of counsel

concerning any difference arising under this Settlement
- or any matter in any way relating to the Trust Fund or to,
the Trustees' duties in connection with the Trust Fund
and in all such matters to act in accordance with the
opinion of such counsel

(JO / ......
 Pugu Lluvuu

(k) To employ and pay at the expense

of the Trust Fund any agent in any part of the world
' whether an attorney solicitor banker accountant stock-
broker or other agent and whether or not being one of
the Trustees hereunder to transact any business or do
any act required to be transacted or done In the execution
of the trusts horeof including the receipt or payment of
money and the execution of documents and no firm associat-
ion or corporation any of whose securities are included
within the Trust Fund and no purchaser or other person.
- dealing with any agent purporting to act under delegation
of authority from the Trustees shall be required to
ascertain or inquire whother a case exists in which such
delegation is permitted or whether such delegated authority
is still subsisting PROVIDED however that the Trustees
shall not be responsible for the default negligence or
•'fraud of any agent so employed or for any loss occasioned
thereby although the employment of such agent was not
strictly necessary or expedient

(1) Upon and for the purpose of any

distribution or appropriation of the Trust Fund or any
part thereof in their unfettered discretion to-place
such value on any and all assets from time to time
forming part of the Trust Fund aa to them in their
absolute and uncontrolled discretion shall seem just
and proper and any such valuation m&de in good faith
shall be absolutely final and binding and conclusive on
all Beneficiaries hereunder and further upon Any such
discretion or appropriation to determine to whom specified
assets shall be given and to distribute the same subject
 I I

to the payment of such amount* as may be necessary to

adjust the shares of the various Beneficiaries aud ;
further that any distributions of the Trust Fund may be
either made directly to any Beneficiary or applied for
his benefit by the Trustees or during his minority made
to his duly appointed guardian or to any person with whom
be lives or resides for the use of the said Beneficiary
without responsibility for its expenditure.

6. WITHOUT prejudice to the generality of Clause

5 hereof if the Trust Funds shall include any shares or
other Interests in a company the ownership of which gives
i•
to them the right in any circumstances to control the
affairs of the Company or of any of its subsidiaries
the Trustees shall bo under no liability or duty to
appoint any representative to the Board ot the said Company
•» •

or of any of its subsidiaries and further Bhall have no

responsibility to enquire Into oversee or take part in the
management or affairs or business of the Company or any
of its subsidiaries
7. IN addition to reimbursement of their proper
expenses the. Trustees shall be entitled to remuneration
(free of any probate succession estate or other death
duties wheresoever payable and as a first charge on the
Trust Fund) for their services as Trustees in accordance
with their published scale of fees in force from time to '
to time PROVIDED however that the Trustees may transact
on behalf of or with the Trust or any Beneficiary here-
under any business which by their constitution they are
authorised / ...•«
 Pmju I h l r l u e n

authorised to undertake upon the same terns as would

for the time being be made with an ordinary customer
and without accounting for any profit thereby made and
in particular and without prejudice to the generality
of the foregoing the Trustees may retain on current
account or deposit account or advance at Interest all
moneys necessary or convenient to be retained or advanced
.1

In connection with the Trust and may retain for themselves

any commission or remuneration paid or allowed' by stock-
brokers insurance companies or other agents without being
liable to account for any profit thereby PROVIDED further
that the Trustees may transact business on behalf of the
Trust or any beneficiary hereunder with any corporation
or partnership in which the Trustees are office holders
or shareholders or partners or are otherwise financially
interested or with any person or firm holding shares or
being otherwise financially interested in the Trustees
without being liable to account for any profit accruing to
the Trustees as such office holders shareholders or partnera
as a result of such business and the Trustees may hold
office in any corporation shares or securities which
comprise or form part of the Trust Fund and shall not be
H
liable to account to the Trust for emoluments received
by them as such office holders
8. (a) THE Trustees hereof (whether original or
substituted) may at any time or times be removed from their
I

office of Trustee by a Deed executed by the Settlor (herein-

after called "the Appointor") and delivered to the Trustees
and the Appointor may ty deed executed and delivered as
aforesaid appoint any other person or persons whether or not
P<«M1 fl'.'ll i. /
 Page Fourteen

resident in the Caymun Islands to be Trustees either

Jointly with any other then continuing Trustuos or solely
if after removal there shall not be any continuing Trustees
and thereupon the Trust Fund shall be by suh assurance as
nay be necessary or expedient vested jointly in the persons
who shall thereupon become the Trustees of the Trusts hereby
created PROVIDED however! that an outgoing trustee who is
liable as a trustee hereof or may on the death of any
»m

person become liable as a former trustee thereof for any

income probate estate or other duties fees or taxes shall
not be bound to transfer the Trust Fund as aforesaid unless
reasonable security is provided for indemnifying such
outgoing truutee agaiust such liability PROVIDED A ISO that
no removal of trustees by the Appointor shall be affective
unless after such removal (either with or without a new
appointment) there shall remain at least one trustee being
a trust corporation or two trustees being individuals
(b) Without prejudice to the. powers contained
in sub-clause (a) of the Clause if a Trustee hereof whether
original or substituted shall die or being a corporation
be dissolved or shall desire to be discharged from all or
any of the trusts or powers hereof or shall refuse or
become unfit to net thex*ein or become incapable of acting
therein then the following persons namely:

(i) The Settlor or if he shall be dead

or unable or unwilling to act

(11) The surviving or continuing Trustees

hereof for the time being or if there be no

surviving /
 Pago Fifteen

surviving or continuing Trustees

(ill) The personal representatives ol the

last surviving Trustee if such last Trustee
was an individual but if such last 'Trustee
was a corporation then such last trustee
upon retirement may by deed appoint one or
more othur persons or corporation (whether or
not being or Including the persons exercising
the power) to be a Trustee or Trustees in the
place of the Trustee so deceased dissolved
desiring to be discharged refuslug or being
unfit or being incapable as aforesaid

(c) The powers in sub-clause (a) OF THIS

Clause contained may at any time be irrevocably released
by a deed executed by the Appointor and delivered to the
Trustees and the Appointor may in like manner revocably
or irrevocably grant the said powers to any person or persons
to take effect immediately or after the death of the Appointor
as the case may be

(d) The Trustees hereof or any of them

(whether original or substituted) may If they so desire
resign as Trustees hereunder after 30 days written notice
of their Intention so to do sent by registered prepaid post
to the Appointor or such person as the Appointor may from
time to time appoint in writing such resignation shall
become effective upon the day specified in such notice of
resignation
\

(e) /
 Pago Sixteen

(e) In the event of the resignation of the Trustees

hereof or iu case there shall be no trustee hereunder
Oulnness Mahou Bahamas Trust Company Limited or its
successors shall become substituted Trustees hereunder

(f) Upon the resignation or removal of the Trustees

as hereinbefore provided the Trustees shall be entitled
to receive reimbursement but of the Trust fund for all
expenses Incurred by them In connection with the Settle.
a
ment of the account of the Trustees
(g) On every change in the trusteeship a memorandum
shall be endorsed on or permanently affixed to this Settle-
ment stating the names of the Trustees for the time being
and shall be signed by the persons so named and authentic-
ated by a notary or notaries public and any person dealing
with the Trust shall be entitled to rely upon any such
memorandum (or the latest of such memoranda if more than
one) as sufficient evidence that the persons named therein
are the fully constituted Trustees for the time being of
this Settlement

(h) • Any substituted Trustees of this Settlement

shall have all the powers conferred upon the Trustees by
law and these presents and any and all banks brokers
nominees or other depositories custodians of the Trust Fund
shall be authorised to accept instructions from the said
substituted Trustees- as to the dispositions thereof

9. THE Trustees shall provide for the safekeeping

of all documents of title and securities the subject of
 Page Seventeen

this settlement and may at the expense of the Trust

Fund (which expense may include any charges for the
safe custody of securities'and the collection and remittance of
income) deposit the-same in the custody of any bank banking
company corporate- trustee or stock-broker in any par e of the
world that undertakes the safe custody of securities as part
of its business but so that the Trustees shall not be in any
wise responsible for the misapplication of the same or any of tht
by such banking company corporate trustee or stockbroker or
for any loss which may be occasioned thereby
10. IN the event of any income probate estate .or
or other duties feed or takes becoming payable in the Cayman
Islands the United States of America or elsewhere in respec.t of
the Trust Fund or any part thereof on the death of the Settlor
or of any Beneficiary or otherwise tbe Trustees may at -their
discretion pay all or any part of such duties fees and taxes
out of the Trust Fund without recourse against any Beneficiary
or refuse to pay the same'or any part thereof unless
indemnified and to determine the time and manner of such
payment if any
11. NO bond shall be required of the Trustees herein
named (whether original or*substituted) or if a bond should
be required by law to the extent that a waiver by the Settlor
£s effective no surety shall be required on such a bond

which 12./
 Pugu Eighteen

12, THIS Trust shall be irrevocable and the Settlor

expressly waives all right and power whether al.one or in
conjunction with any other person to alter amend or revoke
this Settlement in whole or in part or as to any ol its
terms

13, THE Trustees shall not be personally liable

on contraot made by them in the administration of the
Trust and persons entering into contracts with the Trustees
shall look solely to the Trust Fund

14, WITHOUT prejudice to the right under the general

law of the Trustees to refuse disclosure of any document !
it is hereby declared that the Trustees shall not be bound
to disclose to any person any of the following documents
that is to say:-
*

(1) Any document disclosing any deliberat-

ions of the Trustees (or any of the Trustees) as to the
. i
manner in which the Trustees should exercise any power or j
any discretion conferred upon the Trustees by this Settle- j
ment or disclosing the reasons for any particular exercise !
i
of any such power or any such discretion or the material
i
upon which such reasons shall or might have been based
(2) . Any other document relating to the
exercise or proposed exercise of any power or any discretion
conferred on the Trustees by this Settlement (not being
legal advice obtained by the Trustees at the cost of the
trust estate)
AND /
 Page Nineteen

AMD XT 18 KXPHE33LY Pit0VIPEP that the TEUSTESS

MAY PERMIT AMY Beneficiary personally to inspect any copy
of this Settlement or any documents relating to the Trust
at the principal office of any oorporate Trustee hereof
hut shall uot he bound to give any further information to
any Beneficiary relating to the affairs of the Trust or |o
permit any Beneficiary to make any copies of any documents
relating to the Trust --

15, THIS Settlement is made under the lavs of the

Cayman Islands and the rights of all parties and the
construction and effect of each and every provision hereof
shall he subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of and
construed only according to the laws of the Cayman Islands
which shall be the forum for the administration of thto
t

Trust
PROVIDED however that the Trustees may from time to time
during the Accumulation Period by deed declare that this
Trust and the rights of all parties and the construction
and effect of the provisions hereof shall from the date of
such declaration be subject to the exclusive jurisdiction
of and construed only according to the laws of some other
jurisdiction (other thun the Cayman Islands) in which one
or more of the Trustees then serving in office is resident
and that the forum for the administration of -this Trust '
shall.thenceforth be such other jurisdiction I&OYIDED further
that the Trustees may not declare that this Trust and the
rights of all parties and the construction and effect of
the provisions hereof shall be subject to the jurisdiction
of and construed according to the laws of a jurisdiction
which /
 Paga Twenty I

which would cause a material change In the rights of the

Beneficiaries hereunder or which would not recognise the
validity of this Trust if such non-recognition would
result in the revocation or termination of the Trust

16, ANY person of full age to whoa or for whose

benefit any capital or income may be liable to be appointed
transferred paid or applied by or in consequence of <u>
exercise of any power or discretion vested In the Trustees
or'in any other persou may by deed revocably or irrevocably
disclaim his Interest as an object of such power or
discretion either wholly or with respect to any specified
part or share of such capital or lncomo and then such power
or discretion shall (despite anything contained elsewhere
in this Deed) pro tauto cease to be exercisable

IN WITNESS whereof the said Peter A.Tamburo has set his

hand and seal and the Common Seal of Guinness llahon Cayman
Trust Limited has been hereunto affixed the day and year
first above written

THE FIRST SCHEDULE

One Hundred United States Dollars (U.S.$100.00)

THE SECOND SCHEDULE /

 Page Twenty-One

TUB SECOND SCHBDULB

James Desmond Traynor of "Kilronan", 134, Howth

Road, Clontarf, Dublin 3, Ireland (hereinafter called
"the principal beneficiary")

Mary Josephine Traynor, being the wife of the

a'foresaid principal beneficiary

The issue of the principal beneficiary and his wife (of whatevej
degree)

The grandchildren of the principal beneficiary and his

wife (of whatever degree) including any legally adopted
children

Any brothers or sisters of either the principal

beneficiary or his wife, and their issue

SIGNED SEALED AND DELIVERED)

by the abovVnamed in the )
presence o f i X . )

THE COMMON SEAL OP GUINNESS

MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED
HAS BEEN HEREUNTO AFFIXED It
THE PRESENCE OF:
Appendix XV (127) (1) (b)
George Town, Grand Cayman

Tins DECLARATION OP TRUST is made the SlL day of _ VUM 199X BY

U
THE ORIGINAL TRUSTEE

WHEREAS ihe Scheduled Property has been transferred to the Original Trustee to the intent that
the Original Tnutee must hold it on the trusts declared in this Declaration of Trust.

NOV THIS DEED WITNESSES as follows:-

1. In this Declaration of Trust, unless inconsistent with the context or subject matter or
circumstances:
(1) "The Beneficiaries" means the persons specified in the First Schedule as amended
from time to time in accordance with clause 2 and "Beneficiary" must be
construed accordingly;
(2) "The Original Trustee" means JOHN ANDREW FURZE of Ansbachcr House,
"George Tdwn, Grand Cayman, British West Indies.
(3) "the Perpetuity Date" means the day on which the shortest of the following
periods expirer-
(a) The period ending on the hundredth anniversary of the date of this Trust;
or
(b) The period of twenty (20) years from the death of the last survivor of all
descendants male and female of King George Sixth of England living on
the date of this Trust; or
(c) The period ending on such date as the Trustee appoints by deed.
(4) "Property" means assets of every description wherever situate and includes real
personal intangible, movable or immovable property of every description and
wherever situate and include investments, policies, cash and choses in action.
(3) "The Protector" means JOHN ANTHONY COLLINS of Ansbachcr House,
George Town, Grand Cayman, British West Indies, or any successor (whether an
individual or body corporate) appointed in accordance with clause 23.
(6) "The Scheduled Property" means the property set out in the Second Schedule;
(7) "This Trust" means the trust declared by this Deed which will be known as the
POINCIANA Trust;
(8)' "The Trust Fund" means:-
(a) The Scheduled Property,
(b) Any further or additional Property which any person donates to or vests or
causes to be vested in the Trustee to be held on the trusts and with and
subject to the powers and provisions of this Trust, and
(c) The Property for the time being and from time to timerepresentingthe
Scheduled Property and the further or additional Property Of any) referred
to in sub-paragraph (b), and all accumulations of income and capital from
time to time;
(9) "The Trustee" means the Original Trustee or any other trustee of this Trust for the
time being ;nd from time to time;

iniilh ilkluHhtt-proc
(10) Words of one gender include any other gender and singular words include the
plural and vice versa.
(11) "Person" includes a corporation.
(12) A duly or obligation imposed is to be performed, and a power or discretion
conferred is exercisable in each case, from time to time.
(1) The Trustee DECLARES that it holds and will manage the Trust Fund on the
1 rusts and with and si$ject to the powers and provisions set out in this Deed. All
land must be held on trust for sale with power to postpone sale.
(2) The Trustee may at any lime during the existence of this Trust accept any
additional Property which any person donates to the Trust Fund either personally
or by will.
(3) The Trustee may at any time by deed amend the Pint Schedule so as to add any
person or class of persons whatever now in existence or born before the
Perpetuity Date as a Beneficiary, and that person or class of persons willfor all
purposes become a Beneficiary as of the date of the deed, or such later date as
the deed specifies.
(4) The Trustee may likewise at any time by deed amend the First Schedule ao as to
exclude any person or class of persons from being a Beneficiary as of the date of
the deed, or from such other date subsequent to the date of the deed as is
specified in it, but without prejudice to the Trustee's power to name thai person
or class of persons to be a Beneficiary at a future date.

(1) Hie Trustee must hold all of the capital and income of the Trust Fund in trust for
all or such one or more exclusively of the others or other of the Beneficiaries at
such age or time or respective ages or times if more than one in such shares and
with such trusts for their respective benefit and such provisions for their
respective advancement, maintenance and education at the Trustee's discretion as
the Trustee by any deed revocable or irrevocable executed before the Perpetuity
Dale appoints.
(2) No appointment can be made or berevoked or berevocableon or after the
Perpetuity Date.

(3) The Trustee for the time being may make or revoke any revocable appointment
notwithstanding that the person who makes the appointment andrevokesthe
appointment may not be the same person.
(1) In default of and subject to any appointment made under clause 3, the Trustee
may until the Perpetuity Date pay or apply the whole or such part as the Trustee
thinksfit of the income of lite Trust Fund as it arises to or for the maintenance,
education, advancement or benefit of all or any one or more of the Beneficiaries
for the time being in existence in such proportions or manner as the Trustee in
its discretion thinks fit.
(2) Subject as set out in subclause (I), the Trustee must until the Perpetuity Date deal
with die income of the Trust Fund or so much of it as is not paid or applied as
set out in clauses 3 and 4(1), by accumulating it as an accretion to the capital of
the Trust Fund.
In default and subject to clauses 3 and 4, the Trustee must hold all of the capital and
income of the Trust Fund on trust for such of the Dcneficiaries as are in existence
immediately before the Perpetuity Date, if more than one, in such shares as in its
discretion it thinksfit or, if tltere is no such person, then on trust absolutely for any
charitable institution mentioned in the Third Schedule.
 6. The Trustee may at its discretion al any lime pay or apply the whole or any part of the
Trust Fund to or for the maintenance, education, advancement or benefit of all or any
one or more exclusively of the others or other of (he nencficiaries in such manner as the
Trustee, in its discretion, thinks fit, without being liable to account for the exercise of
that discretion, including purchasing an annuity for any one or more of the Bcneficiaries.
' 7. Notwithstanding any of the trusts, powers and provisions in this Deed, (he Trustee may
at any time hcforc the Perpetuity Dale by deed, revocable or irrevocable, release any
power, right or discretion under this Trust.
8. No benefit devolving on any Bcneficiary under this Trust may form or constitute a
portion of any communal or joint estate of that Beneficiary but that benefit will be and
remain the sole, separate and exclusive property of that Beneficiary and, should any
Beneficiary lie married and lie subject to laws of community property, then any benefit
so devolving will be expressly excluded from the .community ami, in the case of the
Beneficiary Itcing female, Ihal benefit will also be free from the interference, control or
marital power of any husband of Hint Bcneficiary. In this clause, the word "benefit"
includes Property and the provisions of this clause apply not only to the benefits actually
devolving on any Beneficiary but also to the Property for the time being representing it
and the income of it.
9. In addition to the powers vested in tnistees by law, the Trustee without the consent of
any Beneficiary has and may exercise the following powers:-
(1) Toretainany Property belonging to or forming part of the Trust fund in the
actual state or condition in which the Trustee receives it for so long as the
Trustee thinks proper without being answerable for any loss occasioned by so
retaining it.
(2) To sell or otherwise dispose of all or any Property at any time forming part of
I he Trust Fund in such manner by public auction or private contract andfor such
price in money or other consideration and on such terms and conditions as the
Trustee thinks proper and to receive the consideration or price on such terms and
conditions as the Trustee thinks Fit and give receipts for it.
(3) To exercise all the voting powers attaching to any shares, stocks, debentures or
other securities or notes at any timeforming part of the Trust Fund.
(4) To exchange Property for other Property of a like or different nature and for such
consideration and on such terms and conditions as the Trustee considers
advisable.
(5) To compromise -and settle for such consideration and on such terms and
conditions as the Trustee considers advisable all mailers arising in relation to this
Trust or the Trust Fund and all those compromises and settlements will be
binding on all the Beneficiaries.

(6) To surrender and deliver up any securities or notes or other Propertyforming part
of (he Trust Fund,for such consideration and on such terms and conditions as the
Trustee approves, to any company or corporationreducingits capital and the
Trustee may receive that consideration in theform of cash, securities or other
assets as is agreed between the Trustee and (hat other company or corporation.

(7) To consent to any re-organisation or reconstruction of any company or

corporation whose shares, indebtedness, notes or securities form part of the Trust
Fund and to consent to anyreductionof capital or other dealings with those
shares, securities, or other Property as die Trustee considers advantageous or
desirable.
(8) To invest or deal with any money forming part of the Trust Fund without regard
to Uie provisions of any statute regulating trusts in any Property or business
whatever (including hut nol limited to (he purchase of any freehold or leasehold
 land with or wiihout any house or other buildings on it or goods for the beneficial
occupation, use or enjoyment of any Bcneficiary) on such personal credit with or
without security and with or without interest as the Trustee in its discretion thinks
fit, to the intent that the Trustee will have the same full and unrestricted power
of dealing with and investing and varying investments and IVopcrty in all rcspccts
as a beneficial owner.
(9) To make speculative investments if it thinks advisable without limitation by any
"prudent man rule" or rule of reasonableness or any other statute or rule of law
regarding investments by trustees and the making of those investments must not
in any event be constmed as a breach of trust; and to open accounts, margin or
otherwise, with brokerage firms, hanks or others wherever in the world, to invest
the funds of the Trust Fund in, and to conduct, maintain and operate those
accounts directly or through an agent for the purchase, sale and exchange of,
commodities, stocks, bonds, notes and other securities and In connection with so
doing, to barrow or raise money, incur Obtigntions, obtain and give guarantees
and engage in all other activities necessary for or incidental to conducting,
maintaining and operating those accounts.

^ (10) To pay out of the income or capital of the Trust Fund all the costs of and
_ incidental to the preparation execution and stamping of this Trust.
. )
^ (11) To determine whether any sums received or disbursed are on account of capital
or income or partly on account of one and partly on account of the other and in
what proportions, ami (lie decisions of the Trustee, whether made in writing or
implied from its acts will he conclusive and binding on all Beneficiaries.
(12) Tb carry on any trade or business anywhere in the world whether alone or in
partnership whether limited or general.
(13) To lend Ihe whole or any part of the Trust Fund to any Beneficiary or any
companyreferred to in subclause (20) of this clause or any partnership referred
to in subclause (12) of this clause and to appropriate and apply it or the income
of it in securing (by any means however) any obligation of that Beneficiary,
company, or partnership, or in guaranteeing or heenming surety for him on such
terms as to repayment or otherwise and whether interest free or at interest and
with or without security as the Trustee thinks fil.

(14) To be employed and remunerated or otherwise profit as a director or other officer

or employee or as agent or adviser or otherwise however of any company or
other corporation or undertaking or firm whatever at any time or in any way
connected or dealing with the Trust Fund or in which the Trustee is in any way
interested, or dealing with or acquiring any Property from or selling or letting
any Property to tlie Trustee and to retain as its absolute property (and without
being liable to account for it) any remuneration, fees or profits received by it in
any such capacity notwithstanding that its appointment or office as that director,
officer, employee, agent or adviser has been obtained or is held or retained in
right or by means of its position as the Trustee or one of the Trustees.

(15) To enter into any indemnity in favour of any former trustee or other person in
respect of any contingent or prospective liability (including any tax, duty or other
fiscal imposition) in respect of the Trust Fund or the income of it or otherwise
in connection with this Trust and to apply the whole or any part of the Trust Fund
or the income of it by way of mortgage, pledge or otherwise however as security
for that indemnity.
(16) (a) To employ and pay for such professional or other assistance as the Trustee
thinks necessary in the discharge of its duties, including but not limited to
lawyers, accountants, agents, advisers, managers and employees of any
kind.
 (b) To act on the opinion or advice of or information obtained from any
financial adviser, lawyer, valuer, surveyor, broker, auctioneer, accountant
or other expert or professional person, but so that the Trustee will not be
responsible for any loss, depreciation or damage occasioned by acting or
not acting in accordnncc with that opinion, advice, or information.
(17) To determine all questions and matters of doubt which may arise in the course of
the management, administration, realisation, liquidation, partition or winding up
of the Trust Fund.
(18) To erect buildings on and make improvements to any Property forming part of
the Trust Fund and also to conduct fanning operations on and lease all or any
part or Ituu Property.
(19) To institute and defend legal proceedings and lo proceed to the final end and
determination of them or compromise them as the Trustee considers advisable.
(20) To incorporate or acquire the shares of any company in any place In the world
at the expense of the Trust Fund with limited or unlimited liabilityfor the purpose
of, among other things, acquiring or holding the whole or any part of the Trust
Fund; and the consideration on the sale of the Trust Fund or any part of it to any
company incorporated or acquired pursuant to this subclause may consist wholly
or partly of fully paid shares or debentures or debenture stock or other securities
or notes of the company and may be credited as fully paid and may be allotted
lo or otherwise vested in the Trustee and will be capital money in the Trustee's
hands.
(20 To exercise or concur in exercising the voting and other rights attaching to any
shares or securities for die time being forming part of the Trust Pund so as to
become a director or other officer or employee of any company or other entity
and to be entitled to vote and to lie paid and toretainfor the Trustee's use and
benefit reasonableremuneration for those services.
(22) Toraiseor borrow money on the security of the Trust Fund or any part of it at
any time and pay or apply the money so borrowed orraisedin any manner which
money forming part of the capital of (he Trust Fund may be paid or applied and
to execute and deliver such security documentation for loans or indebtedness or
other obligations as is required; and to give guarantees and indemnities and by
any means to secure liability under them on the Trust Fund or any part of it.
(23) To deposit the securities, title deeds and other documents belonging or relating
to this Trust for safe custody with any bank or trust company (including itself).
(24) To hold any part of the Trust Fund in the name of any nominee of the Trustee.
(25) If income or capital becomes distributable to a minor Bcneficiary or to a
Beneficiary under other legal disability or to a Beneficiary not adjudicated
incompetent but who, because of illness or mental or physical disability, is in the
Trustee's opinion unable properly to administer that distribution, then the Trustee
may pay that distribution in any one or more of Ihe following ways as it thinks
best:-
(a) directly to that Beneficiary;
(b) to Ihe legally appointed guardian or committee of lhal Beneficiary;
(c) to a parent or somerelativeor friend for the care and support and
education of that Beneficiary; or
(d) by the Trustee applying those amounts directly for the benefit of that
Beneficiary;
 ami as regards (b) and (cV without having to sec to the application of them and
the receipt of any such person will constitute a full andfinal release and discharge
of the Trustee.
(26) If any income, probate, estate or other duty, fee or tax becomes payable in the
Cayman Islands or elsewhere inrcspcctof die Trust Fund or any part of it on the
death of any Beneficiary or otherwise, to pay at its discretion (but in tlw interest
or tlic Bcncficinrics ami the Trust Fund) all or any part of that duly i fee or lax out
of the Trust Fund with or without recourse against any Bcncficiary or to refuse
to pay it or any pai\ of it unless indemnified, and to determine the time and
manner of the payment (if any).
(27) Generally in relation to the Trust Fund to perform all acts of alienation,
hypothecation and other acts of ownership to the same extent and with the same
effcct as the Trustee might have done if it had been the bcneficial owner and the ••
Trustee's decision and action, whether actually made or taken in writing or
implied from the
Trustee's acts, will be conclusive and binding on all the Beneficiaries.
10. "Notwithstanding any of the trusts, powers and provisions in this Deed, the Trustee may
at any time before the Perpetuity Date at its discretion by any irrevocable deed, appoint
thai the whole or any part of the Trust Fund must subsequently be held on (lie trusts and
with and subject to the powers and provisions of any other trust (including this present
provision) not infringing the rule against perpetuities applicable to this Trust and
approved by tlic Trustee and in favour or for the benefit of all or any one or more
exclusively of the other or others of Hie Beneficiaries. I f it makes any such appointment,
the Trustee may transfer to the trustee of that other trust the Property comprised in the
appointment and then the trusts declared in this Deed concerning that Property will end
and that Property will for all purposes be subject to the trusts powers and provisions in
that other tnist and be subject la and governed by the proper law of that other trust
whether or not that proper law is the proper law of this Trust.
11. Notwithstanding any of the trusts, powers and provisions in this Deed, the Trustee may
at any time before the Perpetuity Date by any irrevocable deed retire us Trustee and with
the Protector's written approval appoint a new trustee outside the Cayman Islands as
Trustee of this Trust On that appointment being made, the Trustee must immediately hold
(lie Trust Fund on trust for the new trustee awl must transfer it to the new trustee as soon
as possible. Subsequently, therightsof all persons and the construction and effect of
every provision of this Trust will he subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of and be
construed only according to the law of the country of residence or incorporation of the
new trustee which will become the forum for the administration of this Tnist unless any
law, including any rule against perpetuities under that law, would lie infringed by the
provisions of this Deed, in which event, although ihc forum for the administration of this
Trust will have changed the laws of lite Cayman Islands will continue to apply as
provided by clause 22. If the Trustee exercises its power under this clause, clauses 17
and 22 will take effect and be subject lo the provisions of this clause AND the new
trustee may by deed make such amendments to this Deed as are ncccssary to ensure that
it is effective and legal in that new jurisdiction.

12. The Trustee must keep accurate accounts of its trusteeship and may have them audited
annually at the Trust's expense as the Trustee determines, by an accountant orfirm of
accountants which the Trustee selects.
13. Tlic customary expenses in connection with the administration of this Trust including the
Trustee'sremunerationand charges and of die investment of any part of the Trust Fund
and the collection of income and other sums derivable from it must be charged in the
first instance against the income of the Trust Fund Birr if thai is insufficient then against
capital.

tna/i-Aka.ath.pn* 6
14. The Trustee may. in its discreiion appropriate any part of Ihe Trust Fund in its actual
stale or condition of investment at the time of appropriation in or towards satisfaction of
any interest of any person in the Trust Fund as scans just and reasonable to lite Trustee.

15. (1) Any Trustee being a trust company or corporation is entitled to charge and be
paid out of the Trust Fund remuneration in accordance with its scale of fees in
force from time to time and may, as may its parent company or any subsidiary
or any company in which its parent company is a shareholder, without accounting
for any resultant profit, act as banker to and accept deposits from and perform
any service for the Trust Fund on the same terms as it would make with any
other customer.
(2) Any Trustee bei ng a lawyer, chartered accountant or other person engaged in any
profession or husincss will he entitled to charge and be paid all usual professional
and oilier charges for business transacted, time spent and acts done by him or any
partner of his in conncction with this Trust, including acts which a Trustee not
being in any profession or business could have done personally.
(3) Any Trustee may on bchal f of this Trust contract or deal with any person firm or
body corporate with whom it is interested in any way wiuuever, directly or
— indirectly, without the Trustee or that person, firm or body corporate having to
account for any resulting profit.
16. The Tnutee need not give bond or security for the administration of the Trust Fund or
for the discharge of its duties arising under this Trust.
17. (I) If there is a Protector, (lie power of appointing a new trustee of this Trust will be
vested in the Protector, but if there is no Protector, or failing an appointment by
the Protector within fourteen days of a writtenrequestfrom the Trustee lo do so,
that power will be vested in the Trustee or the personalrepresentatives or the
liquidator of the lost surviving Trustee, and that power will extend to the
'appointment of a new trustee in the place of any Trustee resigning its trusteeship
and also to the appointment of additional trustees up to any number subject to
such limit (if any) as is imposed by law.
(2) Any Trustee may at any lime resign the' trusteeship on giving not len than
fourteen (14) days' notice addressed lo the other trustees (if any) or, if there are
no other trustees, if a new trustee is appointed in the place of theretiringTrustee,
and the notice of resignationwill be taken to operate so as to vest all of the
Property forming the Trust Fund in the continuing Trustee or- the new trustee (as
the case may he).
(3) The office of a Trustee will Ipso facto end if that trustee, bang an individual, is
found lo lie a lunatic or of unsound mind or if he becomes subject to any
bankruptcy laws or, if that Trustee, being a company, enters into liquidation
whether compulsory or voluntary (not being merely a voluntary liquidation for the
purposes of amalgamation or reconstruction).
(4) Notices of all changes in the trusteeship must be endorsed on or attached to this
Deed signed by the surviving or continuing Trustee, if any, and every notice will
be sufficient evidence to any person having dealings with this Trust as to the facts
lo which itrelates,and all notices of changcs in the office of Protector must be
dealt with and will with Ihe necessary changes be evidenced in like manner.

(5) Any person dealing with this Trust may rely on a copy of this Deed and of the
notices endorsed on it or attaclied to it, certified by the Trustee or the Trustee's
lawyer before a Notary Public, to the same extent as it mightrelyon the original.
(6) Unless there arc fewer than three trustees of this Trust, the Trustee may act by
majority vote.
18. (1) Every discretion or power conferral on the Pmlcctnr by this Deal will be an
absolute ami uncontrolled discretion or power, ami every discretion or power
conferral on the Trustee by this Deal or by law will, unless otherwise expressly
stated to lie subjcct to tlie conscnt or control of the Protector, he an absolute ami
uncontrolled discretion or (tower, ami no Trustee will be held liable for any loss
or damage accnting as aresultof lite Trasiec's concurring or refusing or failing
lo concur in an exercise of any discretion or power ami, during any period that
there is no Protector, every discretion or power of the Trustee will lie an absolute
and uncontrolled discretion or power.
(2) No Trustee (notwithstanding tW it is a professional tnistce) will be liable for any
error of judgment or mistake of law or other mistake or for anything EXCEPT
the wilful misconduct or wilful breach of trust hy that Trustee and except as set
out in this sub-clause each Trustee and the directors, officers and employees of
any corporate trustee will have no liability whatever for and must be indemnified
by (lie Trust Fund against any claims, losses, death duties, taxes and impositions
arising in connection with the Trust Fund or any part of it.

19. (1) The Trustee may at any lime on such terms as it thinksfit, whether for a fixed
period of time or subjcct lo afixed period of notice or otherwise, and either in
jjilnlion to the whole of the Tnist Fund or to any part of it as may for the time
"bang lie Invested in any particular country or group of countries, act as
. investment adviser or investment or portfolio manager or employ any person,
firm, or company (including without prejudice to the generality of the provisions
' of this sub-clause any company being the parent couipnny or a subsidiary
company of the Tmstcc or any company umler common control with or otherwise
associated with Hie Trustee or any company in which the Trustee is in any way
interested) as an investment adviser or investment or portfolio manager.
(2) The Trustee may give an investment or portfolio manager power to operate a
discretionary account. The Trustee may employ an investment or portfolio
manager on terms that it may sell investments to and purchase investments from
the Trust Fund, pool tmst funds with those of itself and other customers, and
aggregate Hie Trust Fund's transactions with those of itself and other customers
so as to average the cost of sales and purchases over a period.

(3) The Trustee may pay an investment adviser or investment or portfolio manager
such fees, commission or otherremunerationand such compensation for expenses
as the Trustee in its discretion thinksfit, and (lie investment adviser or investment
or portfolio manager will be entitled toretainfor its own use and benefit any
commissions or share of commissions customarily or by usage payable to it in
relation to any dealing or transaction with or concerning Hie Trust Fund or any
part of it; AND if the Trustee or any parent, subsidiary or associated or other
company mentioned in this clause acts as investment adviser or investment or
portfolio manager, it is entitled to remuneration and commission and generally to
act in accordance with its published terms and conditions in force from time to
time for acting in that capacity.

(4) No Trustee will incur any liability or be in any wayresponsiblefor any loss
which may be incurred as a result of negligence of the investment adviser or
portfolio manager or anything done or not done as a result of any dealings of or
advice orrecommendationsgiven or purporting lo have been given by an
investment adviser or investment or portfolio manager (whether in writing or by
^cablegram or orally or by telephone or ollierwise) or for any omission lo take any
action in the absence or through nonreceipt of that advice or those
recommendations from the investment adviser or investment or portfolio manager
and so that, in particular hut without prejudice lo the generality of the provisions
of this sub-clause, no Trustee wilt be liable for any failure to diversify the
investment of the Trust Fund or any part of it.
20. The Trustee need not interfere with or take any active* part in the management or conduct
of the business of any company wherever resident or incorporated in which the Trust is

8
trwrt/a>4/tlm»rible-p«jl
 interested although holding the whole or a majority of the shares carrying the control of
the company, and so long as the Trustee has not notice of any an of dishonesty or
misappropriation of money on the part of the directors or employees having the
management of the company the Trustee may leave the conduct of its business (including
the payment or non-payment of dividends) wholly to those directors or employees; and
no Beneficiary under this Trust will be entitled to require the distribution of any dividend
by any company wherever incorporated or resident in which tin Trust may be interested
or require die Trustee to exercise any powers he may have compelling any such
distribution.
21. Every Trustee or Protector who is a beftly corporate may exercise or concur in exercising
any discretion or power conferred on it by aresolutionof that body corporate or by a
resolution of its board of directors or governing body or may delegate therightand
power to exercise or concur in exercising any such discretion or power to any one or
more of its directors, officers or employees.
2Z This Trust is established under the laws of the Cayman Islands and, if and so long as the
powers in clause U have not been exercised, the rights of all parties and the consmwtion
and effect of every provision of this Trust is governed by and construed only according
to the laws of the Cayman Islands, which is the forum for the administration of this Trust.
J 23. (1) The Protector will automatically cease to be the Protector, if being an individual.
he or she dies or is found to be a lunatic or of unsound mind or becomes subject to
any bankruptcy laws, or if that Protector, being a company, enters into liquidation
whether compulsory or voluntary (not being merely a voluntary liquidation for the
purposes of amalgamation or reconstruction) or in either case if that Protector
makes a valid appointment under sub-clause (2), or resigns.
(2) The Protector may be deed and, if an individual, may also by will irrevocably
appoint any other person to be Protector of this Trust in his place. On the Trustee
being given written notice of the appointment and on Ihe person appointed
consenting in writing to act, that person- will become the Protector, immediately if
appointed by deed, or on the death of the testator if appointed by Will.
(3) If notwithstanding the provisions of sub-clause (2), there is at any time no
Protector of this Trust, the Trustee may by deed Irrevocably appoint any person
not being a Trustee to be the Protector.
24. A Beneficiary of this Trust may not alienate, encumber or hypothecate his interest in it,
nor will the interest of any Beneficiary by subject to claims of his creditors or be liable to
attachment, execution or other process of law. A Beneficiary may not pledge, assign,
transfer, sell or in any manner whatever accelerate, anticipate or encumber lite income or
capital of the Trust Fund, nor will any income or capital of the Trust Fund be in any
manner subject or liable in the Trustee's hands for Ihe debts, contracts or liabilities of any
Beneficiary or be subject to any assignment or any other voluntary or involuntary
alienation or dispoisition whatever before the Trustee distributes all or part of that income
or capital to the Beneficiary,

Pflyrr srnnni m t
1. Jama Desmond Traynor, of 134, Howth Road, DUBLIN 3, Ireland and hia wife
Dofeen Traynor;
2. Any child or grandchild of the said James Desmond Traynor and Dofeen Traynor.

sqrawn snremn jg
The total issued equity and loan capital of the following companies incorporated under
the laws of (he Cayman blonds, British West Indies:-
POINCIANA FUND LIMITED
HAMILTON ROSS CO. LIMITED
WORLDWIDE MANAGEMENT & CONSULTANCY SERVICES LIMITED
DUMAS'HOLDINGS LIMITED

uuMr-dAaxMcfrai 9
 T J N P N S T H K D U U B

THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS, Geneva, Switzerland or any other charity which
the Trustee sclccts.

EXECUTED under Seal by

fuaxe in the
presence of:-

Witness ^

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Royal Bttk of Scodaad
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teiey. Quoad Uaodi
Son Code: 16-10-21
Swift Cods: 16-50-06
fetowHtto 11151833
AIB&ttk (CLL) Lad.
J. D.Teayoor 74519100
Rtito CJ.U.

2C1035

QUOTMyMcn—.
Appendix XV (128) Mr Joseph Turley
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Joseph Turley.

a) Internal GMI memo of 4 September 1989 - JB to CC.

b) Internal GMI memo of 28 September 1989 - Credit Control Unit to Credit

Committee, Guinness Mahon and Co.

c) Letter of 9 January 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to GMI.

2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Joseoh Turley.

a) Letter of 21 December 2001 - Arthur Cox Solicitor to Inspectors.

Appendix XV (128) (1) (a)
 JOSEPH TURLSY / ARGUS APTOMOBI™«« T.tmtt^Q / GBM PLASTICS

Background
Mr. Joseph Turley is the proprietor of Argus Automobiles
Limit ad, a car rantal camp any which operates from premises in
Terenure. Mr. Turlay has baaa a customar of G&M for the past
tan years and both Argus and Mr. Turlay have availad of a number
of different' facilities ovar this period. Thesa facilities,
which have amounted to a maximum at any one tins of IR£600,000
wara provided on the basis that security was adequate (to the
extant of Stg.£lm.)
Due to the Bank's changing relationship with the offshore
connections and in particular with the departure of Padraig
Collery from o&M, it has bean agreed with Mr. Turlay that our
facilities with him/Argus/GBM should now be formalised without
regard to the adequate security. It is proposed that G&M should
take security over a number of investment properties owned by
Mr. Turley.
Our existing approved facilities are set out below:-
Present Facilities
Limit Balance
J. Turley 100,000 32,362
Argus Automobiles ISO,000
J. Turley (Jnr.) 20,000 10,000
G&M (Plastics) Ltd. ' Loan 130,000 130,000
*.X. 280,000 - y
The following nota considers the facilities to J. Turlay 3nr.
and Argus. A separata nota ia attached on GBM Plaatics and J.
Turlay jnr.
Joseph Turley
This loan represents a personal loan to Mr. Turley which
has been available for a number of years. Mr. Turley used
it to finance part of the purchase cost of three
warehouses located in Santry. It is repaid from part of
the rental income received on these properties (annual
rental income 1s £60,000). Mr. Turley has requested,
however, that the facility be continued at its present
limit of £100,000.
Argus Automobllaa
We approved a working capital facility of £150,000 in
January. This was essentially a standby facility to be
drawn down in the event that the company'a facilities from
it' s Clearing Bank - AXS were fully utilised - in the
event AIB allowed an excess and as a result this facility
is no longer required.
Financial Information.
Financial information on Argus is attached and shows a profit
before tax of £159,000 for the year to 31.3.89 compared to
£129,000 in the previous year.
Net Assets at 31.3.89 amounted to £508,000'. The company
operates from premises owned by Mr. Turley thus the net worth
does not Include any value for premises.
Argus Leasing Limited
^MMMMA^MMM^MMMMMMMMMMMASKMMAMMMM^MMMMMMM

The above company has been established by Argus Automobiles to

enable it increase its range of services whilst it is intended
that the company will be primarily providing a lease brokering
service, it is Intended to build up gradually a leasebook
fleet. The initial borrowing requirement is £200,000.
This will mean that our effective facilities to Joe Turley Snr.
will amount to £300,000 whilst as the attached note on GBM shows
facilities to Joe Turley Jnr/GBM amount to £200,000. These
facilities are guaranteed by Jde Turley Snr. with the guarantee
being supported by Mortgage over properties in Santry which have
a value of £550,000.
Thus whilst total facilities amount to £500,000 against security
of £550,000 just over one times cover, the cover is effectively
greater (1.8 times) as the note on GBM shows that its loan of
£130,000 is covered more than twice by Debtors and stocks on a
discount basis of 50%.
M
Summary
Mr. Turley operates a business which has been consistently
rofltable. in establishing the leasing business, Mr. Turley
Sas employed a former senior employee of Fiat Ireland who has
been involved in the car business for a number of years. Mr.
Turley will develop the leasing business on a gradual basis and
will not become involved in competition, with the large players
in this market. Wood Chester etc.
We have had a long and successful relationship with Mr. Turley
and recommend that we provide the new facility to Argus Leasing
and extend the personal loan facility of £100,000.
we are earning BLR plus 1% on Mr. Turley's loan (ROC of 40%).
This facility will continue to be subject to annual review. We
would propose to charge 2% over the cost of funds on the loan to
Argus Leasing (ROC of 16%).
JB/OC
4.9.89
Appendix XV (128) (1) (b)
 MKMOBAMDUM

GOXHNBSS MAHON 6 CO TO: Credit Committae

DATE: 28 September 1989 FROM: Michael Whitmarsh
Credit Control Unit

J TOMLMX OGWgCTXOW - G&M BOBLPI

Attached ara applications to Credit committee approved by Dublin

to firstly grant a new facility to Argus Leasing United, a new
company formed by Mr Turley and, secondly, rearrange the security
on the whole connection.
•

The present limits to the Group are sat out on page l of the
accompanying memoranda and total an exposure of £450,000 and
these ara currently secured by "adequate" deposits which are
effectively under Dublin's control.
She Committee will be aware of the background of such eecurity
and the fact that, in certain cases, this may be withdrawn in the
foreseeable future.
This ia one such case where the customer has been informed that
the Bank would prefer to have such arrangements conducted
elsewhere, unless additional security could be provided.
Mr Turlay wishes to maintain his relationship with GUI a&A has
of farad additional or substitute security to bade hie personal
guarantee. This is a charge over three modern warehouse units
which he owns personally, situated near Dublin airport. These
are currently tenanted by Avis, Valley Ice-cream (the biggest
ice-crean distribution in Ireland) .and the third by an equally
reputable covenant. Additionally, Dublin ara offered a first
floating charge over the assets of GBM Plastics Limited to secure
that company's borrowing.
The property has been informally valued by John Finnagan of
Finnegan Menton at £550,000. Dublin have not insisted on a
formal valuation at this stage aa they feel that it ia difficult
to ask the customer (who wants to stay with then) to go to this
expense when ha had quite readily produced alternative security
and they are still hold the adequacy which is currently valued at
about £1 .million.
What ve have therefore at the sonant is additional security on
which all the formalities have not been completed, but it does
fulfill Dublin's requirement of relying less on the adequacy
which may well be removed in due course. When this does happen
they will require a formal valuation of the property.
 Ansbacher Limited
A Mtnbtr of th* Htnrr Aiubtchtr Hoidlngi KjC Mtrchanr Butting Grou
Please reply to: P.O. Box 887, Omnd Carman, Brittah Wot India
42 Fitzwilllajn Square, Phone (809) 949-465J/4
Dublin 2. Telex CP +305
Puci (809) 949-7946
Tels 765144/763065 (809) 949-5267
Fax: 612035

9th January, 1990

M. Lanigan-0'Keeffe, Esq.,
Managing Director,
Guinness I Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DOBLIN 2.

Dear Martin,
Could you please arrange to let me have a note of the balances,
after application of interest on 31/12/89, for the following
Accounts:

G.B.M. Plastics La** WbK

J. Turley fttfs LoM i*{4MJ4.W&*.

Yours sincerely,

J.D. Travnor

JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (128) (2) (a)
 ARTHUR COX
EARLSFORT C E N T R E , EARLSFORT TERRACE, D U B L I N 2
TEL + 3 5 3 1 6 1 8 0 0 0 0 FAX + 3 5 3 1 6 1 8 0 6 1 8 D x 2 7 DUBLIN

www.artkurcox.com
maiil(<iarthurcox.com http:/A»
BELFAST LONDON N E W YORK
29 EUDGATI-: HILL 5 7 0 LEXINGTON AVENUE, 2 8 T H FLOOR
STOKES I I O I S E , 1 7 - 2 5 COLLEGE SQUARE EAST
LONDON EC4M 7JE N E T YORK, N Y 1 0 0 2 2
:!.:, iA.-r liTl 6111) Ti: i.i'iioM. + 4 4 20 7213 0450 TELEPHONE + 1 2 1 2 7 5 9 0 8 0 8
TELEPHONE + 4 4 2« 4023 00(17
FAX + 4 4 20 7213 0455 FAX + 1 2 1 2 6 8 8 3 2 3 7
FAX + 4 4 28 4023 3464

VOI1 R !;I:R[:KT:NV'I:

GG/ran C/TOP/NS/PM
Direct Dial : 618 0470

21 st December 2001

The Office of the Inspectors,

Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited,
Third Floor,
Trident House, * A »- e
Blackrock, i I *tv
Co. Dublin.

Re : Our Client: Joseph Turley

Inspectors Preliminary Conclusions dated 11th December 2001

Dear Sirs,

Our client has forwarded to us your letter of the 11th December 2001 which encloses your
preliminary conclusions which consists of five numbered paragraphs. The content of same has
greatly upset our client. Considering that it is now over a year and a half since he last
appeared before the Inspectors during which time eleven additional binders were furnished to
you on the 16th day of August, 2000 you have requested no further information nor have you
raised any queries concerning his evidence.

Correspondence February 2000

By letter dated 7 th February 2000 you asked our client five questions and our client responded
in writing on the 18th February 2000. The questions were as follows :-

Question: (a) When did you cease to be a client of College Trustees ?

Answer: (A) I am not aware that I was personally ever a client of College Trustees.
I am and have for many years been a client of Messrs. Guinness &
Mahon (Ireland) Limited.

Question: (b) Did you, or any person on your behalf establish, or were you directly
or indirectly the beneficiary of, a Trust in the Channel Islands ?
JAMES O'DWYER PAI-I. MCLAUGHLIN IAN A . SCOTT DANIEL E . O ' C O N N O R PETER M C L A I - C H U N ROBERT BOLTON JOHN V. O ' D V Y E R RONAN WALSH DONOCJH CROWLEY
JOHN S . V A I . S I I MICHAEL MEOIIEN JosEi'II LEYDEN WILLIAM J O H N S T O N EI'CENE MCCAGUE NICHOLAS G . MOORE DECLAN HAYES DAVID O'DONOHOE
COL.M DI GOAN CARL O ' S I I.LIVAN U.\NNI. FOLEY JOHN MEADE CONOR MCDONNELL PATRICK MCGOVERN GRAINNE HENNESSY S£AMUS GIVEN COUN BYRNE
CAROLINE: DEVIJN CIAKAN UOIC.ER GREGORY GLYNN DAVID FOLEY SHU-IIEN IIEUAKIY DECLAN DRISLANE SARAH CCNNIFF KATHLEEN GARRETT PADRAIG 6 RI'ORDAIN ELIZABETH BOTHWELL
WILLIAM DAY ANDREW LENNY JOIIN MKNTON PATRICK O'BRIEN ORIA O'CONNOR BRIAN O'GORMAN MARK SAUNDERS MARK BARS JOHN MATSON DEBORAH SPENCE

CONSULTANTS! VINCENT WALSH DENIS J. BERC.IN CHETTODE HAMILTON NIALI.MCLVUGIII.IN DR. YVONNE SCANNEI.1. DR. ROBERT CLARK JOHN G . FISH DR. MARY REDMOND
Answer: (B) I did not personally nor did anyone on my behalf ever establish for my
benefit a Trust in the Channel Islands. I confirm to the best of my
knowledge and belief I have never received any benefits either directly
or indirectly from any trust that may have been established in the
Channel Islands or anywhere else.

Question: (c) Did such Trust continue after 1981 ?

Answer: (C) Not applicable.

Question: (d) If your relationship with College Trustees continued after 1981, did you
avail of any of the services provided by Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited,
as set out above ?

Answer: (D) Please see my reply to (A) above. I have never personally nor to the
best of my knowledge has any company with which I may be associated
knowingly availed of any services provided by Ansbacher (Cayman)
Limited.

Within the furnished GMI documents not one letter was received directly or indirectly or
copied to our client, confirming that our client was a beneficiary of a Trust in the Channel
Islands nor did our client avail of any of the services provided by Ansbacher (Cayman)
Limited.

Examination 22 nd May 2000

You next requested our client to appear for examination on the 22 nd May 2000. At that
examination your letter dated 7 th February, 2000 and our clients response dated 18th February,
2000 was put to our client for the record. He again confirmed that he was never a client of
College Trustees and that he never established a Trust in the Channel Islands and or the
Cayman Islands.

The evidence by our client confirmed that he did not have any knowledge of any deposit of
which he had an interest either in the Cayman or the Channel Islands that might have been
connected with our clients loan. The evidence by our client also confirmed that he never set
up a trust or put funds off shore.

The evidence confirmed that he met Des Traynor on only one occasion. His evidence also
confirmed that he never received any investment advise from Guinness & Mahon. In actual
fact our client confirmed that Guinness & Mahon Ireland were trying to get their money back
from loans that he secured rather than them looking after his funds. Our clients evidence
indicated that he did not deal with any specific individuals in the bank and in actual fact every
time he visited his Bank he dealt with a different person. In addition our client confirmed as
far as he was aware he got loans from Guinness & Mahon and he did not know why
Ansbacher would have any interest in them.
 Preliminary Conclusion 11 th December 2001

In respect of your Preliminary Conclusions and the numbered paragraphs we respond as

follows:-

1. Noted

2. We are indeed surprised that you are relying on an internal GMI document dated the
4 th September 1989 which was not put to our client in his evidence on the 22 nd May
2000 and the particular quote:

"(Mr.. Turley's) facilities were provided on the basis that security was
adequate to the extent of STG£lm. Due to the banks changing relationship with the
off shore connections and in particular with the departure of Padraig Collery from
G&M, it has been agreed with Mr. Turley that our facilities with him /Argus/GMB
should now be formalised without regard to the adequate security. It is proposed that
G&M should take security over a number of investment properties owned by Mr.
Turley".

The Inspectors leap to now state, without the question being put to Mr. Turley, that this was
knowledge of the deposit and their conclusion is unjust and unfair. This document was not
put to our client in direct evidence. This is an internal GMI document, the author of which our
client is unaware of. We do not know whether or not this particular person gave evidence to
the Inspectors and was this particular proposition put to the person in question regarding our
client. No other document is relied on by the Inspectors which confirms directly or indirectly
that Mr. Turley received a letter confirming this position.

The GMI internal banking and record keeping was obviously different in that certain matters
were dealt internally which were not communicated in any shape or form to the individual
customers as otherwise other questions would have been raised by customers querying such
issues or arrangements. To imply knowledge to our client in respect of that written reference
is inappropriate considering the above circumstances.

It is clear from the documentation that Arthur Cox represented Mr. Turley for several years.
The title documents to those properties were in the possession of Arthur Cox on undertakings
to GMI and therefore GMI's security was always adequately covered but was never requested
to be formalised by GMI accordingly. Mr. Turley would however have given personal
guarantees (in the Banks standard form) and given to the Bank from time to time Statements
of his net worth (which would have very substantially exceeded any borrowing, and would
demonstrate that the loan was fully secured)

The other document that you again rely on is an internal GMI document dated the 28 th
September 1989. In particular the following remarks were identified:-

"The present limits to the [Guinness Mahon] Group are set out on page 1 of the
accompanying memoranda and total an exposure of £450,000.00 and these are
 currently secured by "adequate" deposits which are effectively under Dublin's control.
The Committee will be aware of the background of such security and the fact that, in
certain cases, this may be withdrawn in the foreseeable future. This is one such case
where the customer has been informed that the Bank would prefer to have such
arrangements conducted elsewhere, unless additional security could be provided".

This document was not put to our client in direct evidence. It is an internal GMI memo. We
are unaware of whether Michael Whitmarsh has given evidence in respect of this document
and whether direct questions were put to him in respect of Mr. Turley and in particular the
inference that has now been drawn by the Inspectors regarding this particular quotation.

This GMI internal memorandum was also written in the same month as the previous document
and as previously outlined GMI loans with our client were always secured in the sense that the
necessary security was in place as Arthur Cox had given undertakings regarding the title
deeds of the properties of the client herein. The "additional security" would obviously be
more formalised documentation and guarantees respectively.

3. The only document that was put to our client is referenced in your Inspectors
Preliminary Conclusions which is the letter of the 9 th January 1990. One accepts that
it is on Ansbacher letter heading and it does request a number of account balances but
again we have never seen the original of this document. We were handed a photocopy.
We are unclear of the handwriting that appears on it and whose handwriting it is. We
are unaware of whether Martin Lanigan-O'Keeffe has given evidence in particular
regarding this letter of the 9 th January 1990 which would ascertain the position
regarding the knowledge of our client accordingly. Our clients evidence to the
Inspector on the 22 nd May 2000 confirms that he has no idea why Mr. Traynor from
Ansbacher would be enquiring about our clients loans or GMB's. In addition with all
the documentation that is at your disposal and from all the information that our client
has furnished not one document or letter addressed to our client from GMI and/or from
Ansbacher confirms anything contrary to the evidence that our client has given.

In addition Mr. Traynor did write on Ansbacher notepaper to Mr. O'Keeffe on the 9 th
January 1990 but we have no evidence as to why the letter was written, who instructed
him and why it was written. It does not state that our client was a client of Ansbacher
nor does it state that our client instructed him to write the letter. It is a letter of
enquiry of GMI on the balances in accounts but we have no evidence or document to
confirm the location of those accounts.

4. In respect of your Preliminary Conclusions we have set out our position accordingly
and ask you to reconsider same.

5. In assessing Mr. Turley's evidence we fail to see how you can come to your
conclusions in light of what we have said and in particular the three particular
documents, two of which were not put to our client. We have also set out our position
regarding those documents accordingly.
AirrmiRCQx

Conclusion

Our client has always maintained and stated he is not nor never was a client of Ansbacher and
specifically neither he nor any of his children or any company which he or they were in any
way associated with had ever had any deposits of any nature or description with Ansbacher.

We therefore urgently request the Inspectors reconsider their preliminary findings herein as
the claim that our client was a client of Ansbacher and that he had funds with them is factually
incorrect and if the claim were not withdrawn then the claim will cause irreparable damage to
our client's good name and reputation. We have already highlighted and with the respect
submit that it is totally unreasonable and unfair that our client should be prejudiced in this way
because of the failure of GMI to keep proper records of its dealings with our client and if such
records had been kept our client would not find himself the subject of this investigation. The
poor quality of the GMI record keeping is further evidenced by the fact that when our client
received a copy of his files same contained correspondence and notes clearly relating to other
clients of GMI.

Finally, we confirm that Mr. Turley still has borrowings with Guinness & Mahon and as far
as he is aware security for these facilities has been the same for the last twenty years
approximately and all the borrowings were on terms that would have been freely available in
the Banking Market to individuals or companies of similar standing to our client without
additional security. Every loan to our client or companies associated with him were secured
and the security provided was that set out in each of the facility letters.

Yours faithfully

ARTHUR COX
Appendix XV (129) Mr Martin Turley
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Martin Turley.

a) Telefax of 11 November 1994 - Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited to IIB.

 Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited
P&.BPKW7
G mnd Cayman
MUitttal ujUa
S H I I R R M W

MRS""8
FaoMto 809 M9 5267

Telefax
From: Jolav A. F u r z a Raf no.

To: Irish Intercontinental 9*nk - Dublin, Ireland

Attention: ms. duhe NCUW-CMS63Xff
Fax No: 011-353-1-678-5034
Dale: n Novesfeer, 1994
No.of Paoea mis page only,
(induing Ms one):

We should be grueftil if, value 16th November, 1994, you would kindly arrange to
transfer Stg. £1,776,778.11 (one mflBnn. seven bandied and seventy-six thousand, seven
bundled and seventy-eight pounds, eleven pence) as follows:-
Bank: Ulster Bank Ltd. International Division
Ulster Bank (IOM) Ltd.
40, Linenhall Street, Belfast, BT2 8AZ
Number. 4009571301
Re: Martin Turley No. 617318
Sort Code: 98-00-05
Swift No.: ULFBGB2B
Please debit our account number 02/01087/81
Yours &ithfally.
v
6 '

IMMh MMgi mdtat th* toww mmmisrirnii I mq

r<7
HAVE NOT wcaveo TW TOT*. NUMNEA OF PAOU oa r YOU NOD ASSISTANCE PLEAM CAU. (IN) I
0QNNXN1MUTYN0TICS
JENNISONE. NUNEZ
bt pMtpd mt mMMbl ^ c^ p
mi mmm kan ithf
.//
UM. dtootuw. <•*«*» a —wlnSw > Mmy tumn. l|MhaMimM4«*taM*{arft»oaM)to
IbMk

M**eo. BwKwtand. tat* of MM. Bahama*. Cayman MM*. 8iMsh Virgin Uanda • 5 6 5 5
Appendix XV (130) Sir Charles Villiers, deceased
l. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Sir
Charles Villiers, deceased.

a) Letter of 16 October 2000 - Lovegrove & Eliot Solicitors to Secretary to

Inspectors.

b) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 16 December 1981 - JDT to

BMcL.

c) Letter of 16 October 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.

d) Letter of 10 July 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mhaon.

e) Letter of 10 February 1992 - Guinness and Mahon to Lovegrove & Eliot

Solicitors.
Appendix XV (130) (1) (a)
 Lovegrove & Eliot 4/5 Park Street
w Kbor
fWA-ampK^aw. Solicitors and Commission.™ for Oaths " -
Barry S. Mdnanxy SL4 IJS
CbtnF.Sdmdhom lUaphona: 01753 851133
DoutfujJiCimAuj, Facsimile: 017S3 U0SI2
GWhn J. Edwirdt, u* DX: 3808 WINDSOR
Kakh B. Bui, IL&
Conwfcana OurReS PAS/AH
John E. Hutdaxk.Lva.Qi.aa
George M.Sioc YourRet Q^Ol/FG
Anoctaa fork*Dcyla, u*
16 October 2000
Ms Frances Gaynor
Secretary to the Inspectors
Office of the Inspectors appointed by Order I S 3C"
of the High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd
3 rd Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co Dublin

Dear Ms Gn.ynor

The late Sir Charles Villiers

Thank youfor your letter of 9 th October.

I am sorry that it has taken me longer than I had anticipated to deal with this matter.
Following our earlier exchange of correspondence in August, I wrote to Lady Villiers. She
has authorised me to disclose to you any information which can be takenfrom the files
relating to die administration of the Estate of the Late Sir Charles Villiers. She has also
researched her own papers and states that she has only found one mention of Ansbacher
(Cayman) Limited and that appeared in a letter written to her in March 1992. She made
the assumption that I would have a copy of that letter on my file but in fact I can trace no
such letter.

Lady Villiers has offered to come to my office to discuss the matter but if that is the only
information that she can make available I do not see any necessity at this stage to ask her to
travel to my office. She states that she has little or no recollection of the Late Sir Charles
Villiers dealing with Ansbacher (Cayman).

I have researched the papers in relation to the administration of the Estate and I enclose
herewith a copy of a memorandum dated 1* Februaiy 1977, which appears to have been
issued by Guinness Mahon & Co Ltd and relates to benefits arisingfrom a scheme from
Guinness Mahon & Co being transferred in the form of paid-up policies. You will see
from this that there are eleven policies mentioned. Sir Charles Villiers died on 22 nd
January 1992 from cancer. He knew that his illness was terminal and it appears that very
shortly before his death he typed out a list of "important addresses and telephone

Also at 7 High Street, Etfam. Surrey TW20 9EA Telephone 01784 436471/4 Facsimile 01784 438692
Mi SFLA
Authorised by ch« Law Society in die conduct of investment bunncst LAW A U N U M I
numbers". This specified his Accountant, his Solicitor, his Bank Manager and
Stockbroker, and included in that list there is "Guinness and Mahon for Cayman Trust".
The contact is given as Mr Traynor or Miss Williams, College Green, Dublin 2 and the
telephone number as 010 3531-765-144.

Because of the confidential nature of your enquiries I have made no attempt to contact
Guinness Mahon. I d*faot deal directly with the administration of Sir Charles Villiers'
Estate and entrusted this to an Associate Partner, Miss Beatrice Curtis, who has since left
the firm. Howeverfrom the enquires I have made it would appear that the policies referred
to in the 1977 memorandurp-djd not form part of Sir Charles' Estate. It is possible that the
policies would have mattiredXi his retirement, which occurred in the early 1980s.

If you require me to make further investigation I will be pleased to do so.

Yours sincereK^y'

PA Simpson
LOVEGROVE ec . AOl
Appendix XV (130) (1) (b)
J.P.T,fryp.lfeL. 16th DM-btr, 1981.

Could you pliaa* arraaga to pwraluuM U.S. Dollars to tha

Ttlot of £1,«51.»8 8tor lint, bolae tha halanoa on C.H.T.
OBlan— Qir*" T*Hlt Ji** Account Wo.»8il/M/18
(Stirling Kxtornal Call Dapoait Account) which ahoald bo,
dobltod, and tranafar to:- /
Mr. Lavla van Duaan,
Vo.10 Sightors larry Boad,
Bala Cynwyd,
Phlladalphia,
Pa.,
P. 8. A.
as «~.tuaatad by Sir Charlaa Vllllara.
Pl6u« adviaw whan don* — M U U I 2? Dsllara tranafarwd.

JDT/AJW
/s
FILE UNDER: —7An»bacher limitrxl
/ Utmbtrvfdmjiawy AmbtftSri
olMs PLC Mtrthm* MmMng dm*
sr
17. Stud Omasa, Britkh Waat bdfaa
km
V ^
42 FitzwOliun Square.
Dublin 1
Tfcl: 765144/763065
(KMD MM6S3/4
Trias: CP 4909
Hue (KM) M9-7946
CHQMMW
Fax: 612035
16th October, 1990.
M. David Humphries, Esq.,
Senior Manager - Operations, £
GuinnessftMahon Limited,
17-College Green,
DUBLIN 2.

Dear Dsviu,
Could you please arrange the transfer of Stg.E31,524.85 to:
Royal Bank of/Scotland,
City Branch,
67 Lombard pfcreet,
LONDON EC3j
for credit of
AccounyNo.l 8413283
Accost Naae: Sir ChafXVfe Villiers.
Please debit Ansbacher Limited Account No.13154602.

Yours sincere!

4 >-I"
J.D. Traynor.

JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (130) (1) (d)
 ^Sbacher IimjtwT'^

P.O. Box N7,

Pleasereplyto: mNMD/4
42 FhzwilHam Square, U b CP4JB5
fta (Ml) MS-IMS
Dublin 2. (MM)MM3S7
Ifet 765144/763065
Rue 612035

10th July, 1990.

N. David Humphries„ Esq.,
Senior Manager - Operation*, t a.fofa
GuinnessftMahon Limited,
17 Collage Green,
DUBLIN 2.

Dear narid,
Could you ple~.se arrange for tha tranafar of Stg.EI0,000 to
Royal Bank of Scotland
67 Lombard Street
London BC3
for credit of the Account of
Sir Charlea H. Villiers
• Account No.18413286
The cost ahould be debited to Ansbacher Limited Account
fS No.13154602.

Youra sincerely,

J.D. Traynor.

jdt/ajw
Appendix XV (130) (1) (e)
rv

FILE UNDER:
10 htaucy u n
&
Year l«f< BH/86P/Villier«

Lanfton I Klliot,
Solicitors.
/"N 4. Buk Street,
Windsor,
Berkshire 8L4 1JS. J

Sir.

Bat FLL*FLT W T L M M.C.

I n f n to year lattar of 28th. 1992. Kindly sots that X have puud

it on to i

Mr. J.D.
% 42. MLtwrtlllmi Square.
DnhHn 2.

that Mr. TCayaor will contact yes is das

faithfully.

J
M. DBrip Hiiphrlaa
Senior Manager,Operation*
Op

V. • ' • .
I
Appendix XV (131) Dr Oliver Waldron
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Dr
Oliver Waldron.

a) Statement of Dr Oliver Waldron dated 29 November 2000.

Statement made at the request of the Inspectors appointed by the High Court to
Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited, ref.C/W01/NDP dated 29/11/2000
Details of Relationship between Oliver Waldron, Guinness Mahon (Ireland)
LimitedCGMEL") and Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited(MGMCTn)
I had lived abroad and had worked in the natural resource industry in a number of
countriesfrom 196S until the second half of 1972 when I returned to Ireland from
Canada to take up an appointment as the managing director of Tara Mines Limited. I
worked in Ireland until mid-1974 for Tara Mines Limited when I resignedfrom that
company. From late 1974 to mid-1983 I worked in a part time capacity for a number
of Irish companies and also worked overseas as a consultant to a number of overseas
companies on various international business proposals and projects. I moved my
residencefrom Ireland to the UK in 1983.1 have not been resident in Ireland since
July 1983.

On moving to Ireland in 1972 I sold some of my property and personal investments

held abroad and brought some assets to Ireland mainly to purchase a dwellingfor my
family. I also left some assets overseas at that time part of which were used to
establish a discretionary trust for my dependents with Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust
Limited acting as trustees. I settled the trust with certain cash and assets acquired by
me prior to my return to Ireland and the beneficiaries of the trust were my children. I
was advised by Mr Desmond Traynor of Guinness Mahon (Ireland) Limited in setting
up the trust and Mr John Furze of GMCT acted as the principal trustee and manager
for die trust The trust funds and assets were held by the trust in the Cayman Islands
managed by GMCT. In addition some of the trust assets were held in a Cayman
Islands registered company controlled and managed by GMCT, called Inter Agent
Limited("IAL"). Assets of the trust were also held in other nominee names or
companies controlled by GMCT, on behalf of the trust Neither IAL nor any of the
other companies used by GMCT in managing the trust assets were owned by me and,
as far as I know, these companies were also used as holding nominees for other clients
of GMCT.

I was a private client of Guinness Mahon (Ireland) Limitedfrom approximately 1972

to 1983 having had various small loan accounts with the bank in my own name and
that of a company of mine called Irish Mining Services Limited. All of the loans were
on commercial terms and repayment of the loans was guaranteed by me personally in
all cases. All of the loan amounts including accrued interest were repaid by me to
Guinness & Mahon (Ireland) Limitedfrom personal funds held in Ireland. After the
discharge of the loansfrom GMIL, on or about 1982, 1 ceased to have any further
personal accounts or dealings with the bank.

The trust funds and assets held by GMCT were managed by Mr Furze. Small amounts
from the trust fund were paid to me in Irelandfrom time to time during 1972 and
1983 to defray expenses incurred on behalf of the beneficiaries such as school
expenses etc. After moving to the UK in 1983 the trust assets were liquidated and
were employed to fund the private education of my four children. By the mid to late
1980's all of the funds of the trust were exhausted and the trust became dormant. I do
not know what became of the trust but I think it was wound up or became disused.

l
Sometime during 1984 or 198S an Irish registered public company, Oliver
Prospecting & Mining Company Limited(later Oliver Resources pic and now Dragon
Oil pic), of which I was then a director, acquired a Cayman Islands registered
company, Wington Enterprises Limited,from a third party in the normal course of its
business. The board of Oliver appointed GMCT as managers of Wington for reasons
of administrative convenience and the affairs of Wington were managed by GMCT on
the instructions of the board of Oliver. At a later date toward the end of the 1980's
when the activities of Wington had virtually ceased the management contract with
GMCT was terminated. I have no records of the Wington transactions conducted by
GMCT other than those in the file which is herewith attached. The Wington
arrangements with GMCT were not related in any way to my personal affiurs. The
board of Oliver engaged GMCT on a purely commercial basis to manage the affairs of
Wington in the Cayman Islands. Oliver, as a listed public company, had a number of
overseas subsidiaries to hold exploration properties in foreign countries and Wington,
when acquired by Oliver, owned certain oil explorationrightsin Abu Dhabi which
Oliver wished to progress. I imagine GMCT was selected by the board of Oliver upon
my suggestion since I had had the earlier experience of dealing with GMCT in
connection with my personal affairs.

I have movedresidencea number of times since leaving Ireland in 1983 and I have
not retained any records of the trust or of any transactions of the trust or of my
dealings with GMCT since the trust's activities ceased. Also I have not retained any
personal records of my dealings with Guinness Mahon (Ireland) Limited. Since you
raised your enquiry I requested GMIL that they provide me with a copy of any
records they possessed relating to me. I now enclose herewith a copy of all those
records provided to me by Guinness Mahon's office in Dublin recently on foot of my
request.

C/o Whitney Moore & Keller

Wilton Place
Dublin 2
24 January 2001
Appendix XV (132) Mr Joseph Walsh
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Joseph Walsh.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Joseph Walsh dated 20 June 2000.

b) Letter of 3 May 2000 - Gore & Grimes Solicitors to Inspectors.

c) Letter of 24 May 2000 Mr Cathal McCarthy to Mr Anthony Gore Grimes.

d) Guinness and Mahon credit committee minute no 001739.

e) Guinness and Mahon credit committee minute of 15 August 1986.

Appendix XV (132) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. JOSEPH WALSH

UNDER OATH

ON TUESDAY, 20TH JUNE 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer
The Inspectors: MR. ROWAN FCA

MS. MACKEY BL

Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: MR. JOSEPH WALSH

Represented by: MS. CAROLINE COSTELLO BL

Instructed by: MR. ANTHONY GORE-GRIMES

GORE & GRIMES

CAVENDISH HOUSE

SMITHFIELD

DUBLIN 7
 1 THE INTERVIEW COMMENCED AS FOLLOWS ON TUESDAY 2 0TH

2 JUNE 2000

4 MR. ROWAN: Good morning, Mr. Walsh.

5 My name is Paul Rowan I am

6 one of the inspectors and this is my fellow

7 inspector, Ms. Noreen Mackey. This is not a court,

8 Mr. Walsh, nor is it a tribunal, it is an interview

9 and if during the course of the interview you wish

10 to seek some advice from your legal representatives

11 if you ask us to stop asking questions we will allow

12 you to seek some advice. Equally, if your legal

13 representatives feel that they wish to offer you

14 some guidance if they ask us to stop they may do so.

15

16 We are going to make a record of the interview and

17 afterwards you will be asked to sign a transcript.

18 So if I may ask Ms. Cummins, our solicitor, to

19 administer the oath, please.

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

3
 1 MR. JOSEPH WALSH, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS INTERVIEWED

2 AS FOLLOWS BY MS. MACKEY AND MR. ROWAN

4 MR. ROWAN: Ms. Mackey will ask you

5 some questions.

6 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. Walsh, just for the

7 record before we actually

8 look at the statement which you provided to us, I

9 would just like to you ask you for your full name

10 and details of your career, your professional

11 business life to date. Your name is?

12 A. Joseph Walsh.

13 2 Q. What is your full name?

14 A. Joseph Walsh.

15 3 Q. Do you have a middle name?

16 A. No.

17 4 Q. You haven't?

18 A. No.

19 5 Q. Just Joseph Walsh?

20 A. Just Joseph Walsh.

21 6 Q. Can you tell me a little bit about your background,

22 your career and so on?

23 A. Well, myself my own person?

24 7 Q. Yes.

25 A. Well I am 78 years of age.

26 8 Q. You are retired now from business?

27 A. I am retired from business. My father died when I

28 was six, my mother died when I was ten and I left

29 school when I was 14.

4
 1 9 Q. What was your business background, what did you do?

2 A. At that stage I went to work in our business which

3 was a bar, and grocery and green grocery.

4 10 Q. It was barley, grocery and green grocery?

5 A. Bar, grocery and green business.

6 11Q. What was the name of that grocery?

7 A. D. Walsh & Sons.

8 12 Q. And that was your family business?

9 A. That was the family business, yes, my brother was

10 with me.

11 13 Q. Did you continue on in that business throughout your

12 life?

13 A. Throughout my life. I am retired now.

14 14 Q. The name of the company continued to be D. Walsh,

15 did it?

16 A. Correct.

17 15 Q. At the time of your retirement what was your

18 position in it?

19 A. I was managing director with my brother, I suppose.

20 16 Q. Did you have any other business interest over the

21 years, were you director in any other company?

22 A. Yes, Grassland Fertilizers in Dublin.

23 17 Q. Was that a family company?

24 A. It started out as a family company but then we

25 joined up with Arnold Suhr.

26 18 Q. With what?

27 A. He bought shares in it in 1960 - can I ask my

28 solicitor?

29 MS. MACKEY: Yes.

5
 2 A. I think it was 1966.

3 19 Q. MS. MACKEY: They are your two business

4 interests. Is that it?

5 A. They are my two main business interests, yes.

6 20 Q. Do you have a copy with you of the statement that

7 you sent us in, Mr. Walsh, you might go through it.

8 If not we will give you a copy. (Same handed) If we

9 could turn to page two of this statement (Exhibit

10 1) ?

11 A. Yes.

12 21 Q. There are a number of things I would just like to

13 clarify in this. At the second paragraph there you

14 tell us that you have not received any response from

15 Ansbacher Cayman, prior to that you tell us that you

16 had written to the Channel Islands and to Ansbacher

17 to see if they could give you any information about

18 your affairs?

19 A. Yes, my solicitor did.

20 22 Q. It appears that Ansbacher Cayman didn't reply but

21 your solicitor telephoned them, or you telephoned

22 them?

23 A. My solicitor did.

24 23 Q. And was advised that a trust had been established on

25 27th November, 1989, in which the settlor was John

26 Furze?

27 A. Yes.

28 24 Q. That statement is a little bit unclear. Do you

29 accept that that trust was your trust, Mr. Walsh?

6
 1 A. I don't accept it, no. I don't accept it because I

2 didn't sign anything over to the Cayman Islands. I

3 didn't know anything about the Cayman Islands.

4 25 Q. Maybe we will come back to do. If we go on down to

5 your answer to question number one there, you say,

6 your solicitor says:

7 "My client did not cause any deed of

trust to be created in the Cayman
8 Islands. He caused a deed of trust to
be executed in the Channel Islands,
9 though he does not have any copy of
this."
10

11 I would like you to tell me just a little bit about

12 that trust that you caused to be executed in the

13 Channel Islands. First of all, when did this

14 happen?

15 A. In the early '70's.

16 26 Q. Was it through Guinness & Mahon in Dublin that this

17 was done?

18 A. Through Guinness & Mahon, yes, through Des Traynor.

19 27 Q. Through Des Traynor?

20 A. Yes .

21 28 Q. Maybe we could go back a little bit to just look at

22 your relationship, generally, with Guinness & Mahon

23 and with Des Traynor. Had you a business

24 relationship with Guinness & Mahon before that?

25 A. I had, yes, through Grassland.

26 29 Q. When did your fist relationship with Guinness &

27 Mahon begin?

28 A. At that particular time, can I ask my solicitor?

29 MR. GORE-GRIMES: 1966 again.

 2 remember it is fine to

3 just say you can't remember.

4 A. It is very hard for me to remember.

5 31 Q. Sometime in the '60's?

6 A. Sometime in the '60's, yes.

7 32 Q. You commenced a business relationship with Guinness

8 & Mahon?

9 A. Correct.

10 33 Q. For Grassland?

11 A. For Grassland, yes.

12 34 Q. How did you come into contact with them, were you

13 introduced to them by someone?

14 A. I was introduced to them and I met them through

15 Grassland, we were doing business with him.

16 35 Q. With Des Traynor himself?

17 A. With the bank and Des Traynor.

18 36 Q. How did Grassland come to be doing business with

19 him?

20 A. They had some money from them, they had some

21 accounts, as far as I know, with them.

22 37 Q. With Guinness & Mahon?

23 A. Yes.

24 38 Q. You met him for the first time then, is that it?

25 A. That is the first time I met him, yes.

26 39 Q. Over the years did you have any personal banking

27 relationship with Guinness & Mahon up until the time

28 of this trust?

29 A. No, I never had any money in Guinness & Mahon, no.

8
 1 40 Q. But you knew Des Traynor during that time?

2 A. I knew Des Traynor during that time.

3 41 Q. Coming then to the time when you caused this deed of

4 trust to be executed in the Channel Islands, how did

5 that come about?

6 A. He asked me, you know the way when you are talking

7 to a banker looking for business, or an insurance

8 man looking for business, so I told him I had an

9 idea that I would like to leave some money to my

10 nieces and nephews. I had that in mind and he said

11 that he would look into it and come back to me. He

12 came back and said that this trust would be a good

13 idea.

14 42 Q. Did he explain anything to you about the trust, did

15 he say it would be a discretionary trust?

16 A. He did, yes.

17 43 Q. Did you understand what a discretionary trust meant,

18 or did he tell you?

19 A. He must have told me because as far as I knew

20 discretionary means that they can look after the

21 trust for you.

22 44 Q. Can you recollect what he told you at that time?

23 A. No, I would be afraid I wouldn't recollect.

24 45 Q. If you can't recollect, fine, but if you can

25 remember?

26 A. Yes, he said it would be a good idea for my nieces

27 and nephews that I could leave it there for them.

28 46 Q. Did he tell you that the funds would be held by

29 trustees?
 2 47 Q. Did he say who the trustees would be?

3 A. No, he never mentioned any names.

4 48 Q. Did he mention a company?

5 A. He didn't, no.

6 49 Q. Where it would be, what country it would be?

7 A. In the Channel Islands.

8 50 Q. He told you it would be in the Channel Islands?

9 A. Yes.

10 51 Q. Did he say it would be managed by a subsidiary of

11 Guinness & Mahon in the Channel Islands?

12 A. I can't recollect whether he did or he didn't, he

13 may have but I couldn't say for certain that he did.

14 52 Q. What you recollect is he told you that it would be a

15 good idea to set up a trust in the Channel Islands?

16 A. Yes.

17 53 Q. That the money would be held by trustees but he

18 didn't tell you who the trustees would be?

19 A. No.

20 54 Q. Did he say that you would be the settlor of the

21 funds or that somebody else would be?

22 A. I am not with you now, that I would have to settle

23 financially?

24 55 Q. That you would settle funds on the trustees, that

25 you would pass funds to the trustees and sign a deed

26 of trust?

27 A. Correct.

28 56 Q. He told you that?

29 A. He did, yes.

10
 2 A. I did, yes.

3 58 Q. Do you have a copy of that?

4 A. I haven't, no, he gave me no copy of it.

5 59 Q. Do you recollect what it said?

6 A. That the funds would be for my nieces and nephews,

7 when I died, of course.

8 60 Q. Do you recollect that you were one of the named

9 beneficiaries yourself under the trust?

10 A. Yes, he said that if I wanted my original £100,000,

11 I think it was £100,000 or it might have been

12 £97,000 or £102,000, I can't remember, that I could

13 take that at any time, that I could reclaim, I

14 suppose is the word.

15 61 Q. Effectively the money that you were putting into the

16 trust was around that sum, was that it?

17 A. Correct.

18 62 Q. You were putting in £100,000?

19 A. Yes.

20 63 Q. He said to you that if you wanted it at any time you

21 could reclaim it?

22 A. Yes, if I wanted it, I didn't ever think that I

23 would reclaim it.

24 64 Q. But you understood that you could if you wanted?

25 A. Yes, he said if you need it you can have it.

26 65 Q. Very good. Well, if we can go back here to your

27 statement (Exhibit 1) a little bit and look at the

28 questions at number 1 there, at 1(b) your solicitor

29 says:

11
 1 "The only money which my client
transferred were transferred to
2 Guinness & Mahon Limited for onwards
transmission by way of loan to the
3 Channel Islands structure set up by
Guinness & Mahon."
4

5 What does that mean, Mr. Walsh, the Channel Islands

6 structure that you are talking about there, is that

7 the trust?

8 A. That's the trust, yes.

9 66 Q. What were you saying there that you gave the money

10 by way of loan to the trust, I don't understand

11 that?

12 A. I didn't intend it that it was going to be a loan,

13 but if he said if I wanted to take it back that I

14 could take it back, it was a loan to the trust,

15 whatever the trusts made they had it. I never

16 intended taking back the money.

17 67 Q. As far as you were concerned this was money that you

18 were putting into a trust for your nieces and

19 nephews?

20 A. Correct.

21 68 Q. You were not of the view that you were lending money

22 to some people over in the Channel Islands, were

23 you, for them to do what they liked with?

24 A. Well once they were -- the trustees were in charge.

25 69 Q. They were in charge, but they were holding it on

26 trust for your nieces and nephews; is that right?

27 A. Correct.

28 70 Q. To say that you were lending money wasn't really the

29 position was it?

12
 1 A. The position was that if I wanted this money, that

2 he thought I might need the money at some time I

3 presume, I could have that money. I never dreamt

4 that I was going to take it and what really happened

5 was a brother of mine died.

6 71 Q. We can come on to that in due course, that is where

7 you got it back. In any event, what you were

8 planning at that point, as you say you didn't intend

9 ever to take it back, but you were planning that

10 this money would be held in trust in the Channel

11 Islands for your nieces and nephews?

12 A. Correct.

13 72 Q. Can I ask why you thought it would be a good idea

14 that it would be held in the Channel Islands as

15 opposed to here in Ireland for your nieces and

16 nephews ?

17 A. Well he suggested the Channel Islands and I trusted

18 him being a banker and that.

19 73 Q. Did he say why?

20 A. Not that I can recollect, he didn't, I don't believe

21 I asked him.

22 74 Q. This was I think you said 1970, what year?

23 A. 1972 or 1973.

24 75 Q. 1972 or thereabouts?

25 A. Yes .

26 76 Q. Your money stayed there, anyway for up to, I think

27 it was 1993, was it, after Mr. Traynor's death 1995.

28 Your money was there from 1972. Did you keep in

29 contact with -- I beg your pardon.

13
 1 MR. GORE-GRIMES: I think the letter we sent

2 back said it wasn't

3 actually there. It was somewhere.

4 MS. COSTELLO: It was somewhere, we are

5 not definite where it was.

6 77 Q. MS. MACKEY: The money was away from

7 Mr. Walsh anyway during

8 that period, from 1972 onwards until such time as

9 you got it back. Did you get any statements of what

10 was happening to it, statements of account during

11 that time?

12 A. No.

13 78 Q. Nothing at all?

14 A. Nothing at all, I never looked for them.

15 79 Q. You never looked for them. Did you ever discuss it

16 again with Mr. Traynor during those years?

17 A. No, I met him afterwards. We didn't discuss it, he

18 just said it was going alright, that's all.

19 80 Q. You would have put that money there, you would have

20 viewed it, no doubt, as an investment that would

21 grow for your nieces and nephews; is that right?

22 A. Correct.

23 81 Q. You would have expected that over the years it would

24 appreciate?

25 A. I would imagine so, yes.

26 82 Q. Did you never ask Mr. Traynor what stage was it now

27 at or what had happened to it or was it earning a

28 good rate of interest?

29 A. No, I just asked him was it doing well and he said

 2 83 Q. He told you it was doing well?

3 A. Yes.

4 84 Q. You understood that it was growing?

5 A. Yes.

6 85 Q. And you were happy with that?

7 A. I was happy with that.

8 86 Q. Now, at the time that you were setting up the trust,

9 Mr. Traynor, as you said, gave you this advice and

10 you trusted him. Did you get any other financial or

11 legal advice about setting it up at the time?

12 A. I had an accountant at the time.

13 87 Q. Who was he?

14 A. Des Crowley.

15 88 Q. Of?

16 A. Of Kilkenny.

17 89 Q. Des Crowley; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 90 Q. He advised you on the trust did he?

20 A. He said if that's the way you felt about it that you

21 want to leave it to your nieces and nephews, your

22 wife will be well looked after, so my wife was well

23 looked after so it was alright.

24 91 Q. He knew, you explained to him what the trust was and

25 where it was and so on, did you?

26 A. I told him, yes.

27 92 Q. That it was in the Channel Islands?

28 A. That it was in the Channel Islands, I must have.

29 93 Q. Did he give you written advice about it at the time?

15
 1 A. No, it was verbal.

2 94 Q. You just chatted with him?

3 A. I just chatted with him, that's all I would do.

4 95 Q. If we can move on a little bit through your

5 statement and we turn over to the next page, and we

6 move down to number 6, we might go back again

7 afterwards a bit further up, if we look at number 6,

8 your solicitor says:

9 "My client understands that exchange

control permission was not required for
10 the repayment of the £100,000 loan
referred to above. This is the only
11 financial transaction which my client
had with the Company."
12

13 Now, the company in our original letter to you, that

14 phrase or that word is used to describe Ansbacher

15 and in this reply to our question number 6, which

16 related to exchange control, you appear, if I am

17 understanding it correctly, to be saying that the

18 repayment, as you describe it, of your £100,000 loan

19 was the only transaction which you had with

20 Ansbacher and your solicitor goes on to say:

21 "The initial loan to the Channel Island

trust structure does not appear to fall
22 within the ambit of your enquiry."

23 You seem there to be saying, if I am correct, that

24 you gave the £100,000 initially to a trust in the

25 Channel Islands but the money that you got back came

26 from Ansbacher; is that correct?

27 A. Correct.

28 96 Q. Can you tell me how that came about? Just tell me a

29 little bit about the getting back of the money and

16
 1 what happened?

2 A. Why I got it back, the reason?

3 97 Q. First of all how you went about getting it back

4 because I think Mr. Traynor had died at that stage?

5 A. A brother of my mine died, as I said earlier, he

6 died suddenly and I thought I would get back this

7 money for my nieces and nephews, one of them was

8 getting married.

9 98 Q. These were the nieces and nephews that you had

10 originally planned?

11 A. Some of the nieces and nephews. Their father had

12 died suddenly and I thought I would get this money

13 and give it to them. I got it back and I gave it to

14 them.

15 99 Q. Wait now, you got it back, what I want to find out

16 is how you got it back. At this stage Mr. Traynor

17 was now dead, he had died in 1994?

18 A. That is correct.

19 100 Q. According to your statement (Exhibit 1) here you

20 were not sure who to contact in Guinness & Mahon?

21 A. Correct, that's right.

22 101 Q. So you got in touch with Mr. Carty from Deloitte &

23 Touche?

24 A. That's right.

25 102 Q. First of all, why did you get in touch with

26 Mr. Carty?

27 A. Because he was my solicitor at the time.

28 103 Q. He was your solicitor?

29 A. Yes .
 1 MR. GORE-GRIMES: Accountant.

2 A. Sorry, my accountant.

3 104 Q. He was your accountant at the time?

4 A. Yes .

5 105 Q. Was he aware of your Channel Island trust?

6 A. No, he wasn't, no.

7 106 Q. You went along to him and you said, what did you

8 say?

9 A. I told him that I had a trust in the Channel Islands

10 and that I wanted to get some money out to give to

11 my nieces and nephews that my brother had died and I

12 asked him could he do anything about it, so he said

13 he would look it up for me.

14 107 Q. Did you tell him who had been looking after it? Did

15 you tell him Des Traynor had been involved?

16 A. I am sure I did. I did, yes, I must have.

17 108 Q. And that you didn't know who to go to?

18 A. I didn't know who to go to, no, I had nobody else to

19 go to.

20 109 Q. He said he would look into it for you?

21 A. He said he would look into it for me.

22 110 Q. Did he know who to go to?

23 A. He must have, as far as I know, whoever he enquired

24 from he went and got it anyhow. I don't know did he

25 know, whether he knew he could go to somebody else

26 or what I don't know.

27 111 Q. Did he tell you what he did?

28 A. No, he said he was going to see -- at first he

29 didn't tell me, no, I don't believe he did. What

 2 suppose, that's what he told me.

3 112 Q. He went off to look into it and then he came back to

4 you again and what he did he tell you?

5 A. He told me, yes, that he would get it for me.

6 113 Q. That he would get it for you?

7 A. Yes.

8 114 Q. Did he say to you what he had done in the meantime,

9 or who he had spoken to?

10 A. I think he had spoken to, I don't know what the

11 man's name was.

12 MR. GORE-GRIMES: It is there written down

13 there.

14 A. Padraig Collery.

15 115 Q. MS. MACKEY: He spoke to Padraig

16 Collery?

17 A. Yes.

18 116 Q. He told you he spoke to Padraig Collery?

19 A. Yes.

20 117 Q. Did he tell you what the gist of the conversation

21 with Mr. Collery was?

22 A. No, I don't think so, not that I can remember.

23 118 Q. What did he say to you, he said he had spoken to

24 Mr. Collery and he would be able to get your money

25 back?

26 A. He said he would get the money for me, yes.

27 119 Q. From Mr. Collery?

28 A. I presume it was from Mr. Collery he got it, I don't

29 know.

19
 2 A. I got the money then.

3 121 Q. But how did you get it?

4 A. I think he posted it to me.

5 122 Q. Mr. Collery posted it to you?

6 A. No, Mr. Carty posted it to me.

7 123 Q. You don't recollect meeting Mr. Collery, do you and

8 getting the money?

9 A. I never met Mr. Collery in my life.

10 124 Q. Did you not?

11 A. No.

12 125 Q. Might Mr. Carty have met him and got it from him, do

13 you think?

14 A. I presume, I am not sure of what way he got it.

15 126 Q. When you were telling Mr. Carty that you wanted to

16 get back this money, you told him that this was

17 money that you had in trust in the Channel Islands?

18 A. Correct.

19 127 Q. And did you tell him this was a discretionary trust?

20 A. I am sure I did, I don't remember, there again, I

21 can't say for definite the wording I used.

22 128 Q. Did you tell him that Mr. Traynor had explained to

23 you that you could get back money if you wanted it?

24 A. Yes.

25 129 Q. Simply by asking for it, was that all you had to do?

26 A. I presumed it was a loan and it was my money.

27 130 Q. Was it an exact sum of £100,000 that you asked for?

28 A. It was, yes.

29 131 Q. But you have explained to me already that you knew

20
 2 A. It wasn't my money, the only money that was mine was

3 the £100,000, the other money was for the trust for

4 my nieces and nephews.

5 132 Q. I see, so what you were doing here was you were

6 withdrawing your original investment?

7 A. Correct.

8 133 Q. But you were leaving all the interest that had

9 accumulated in the trust?

10 A. Of course, yes.

11 134 Q. What became of that then?

12 A. It is still there.

13 135 Q. It is still there?

14 A. Yes.

15 136 Q. I see. Since you withdrew this £100,000 have you

16 had any contact with anybody about the balance that

17 remains?

18 A. My solicitor was making some enquiries, but anybody

19 else, no.

20 137 Q. Have you been in contact with Mr. Collery?

21 A. I don't know Mr. Collery, I never met him.

22 138 Q. But have you had any written communication with him?

23 A. No, none whatsoever.

24 139 Q. Or has Mr. Carty on your behalf?

25 A. I don't know, I don't think so.

26 140 Q. As far as you are concerned there is money sitting

27 in a trust there?

28 A. Correct.

29 141 Q. You don't know how much it is?

21
 2 142 Q. Do you?

3 A. Yes.

4 143 Q. When did you learn how much was in it?

5 A. When my solicitor told me.

6 144 Q. Your solicitor told you how much was in it?

7 A. Yes.

8 145 Q. How did your solicitor know how much was in it?

9 A. He must have found out about it.

10 146 Q. So, your solicitor, I presume, must have got

11 statements of the balance in the trust, would that

12 be the case?

13 A. No.

14 147 Q. Perhaps you would like to just talk to your

15 solicitor for a moment.

16 A. Yes, he did, he told me the approximate amount.

17 148 Q. So you have a statement some where?

18 A. No, I haven't I have no statement.

19 149 Q. Where did this information come from?

20 MR. GORE-GRIMES: Maybe just to help you, on

21 the telephone to me when I

22 rang the people in the Cayman to ask them to assist

23 us and the information you have in the letter about

24 the trust, I asked them roughly what amount is there

25 and they told me the amount, which I then passed on

26 to Mr. Walsh.

27 MS. MACKEY: There are no written

28 statements then.

29 MR. GORE-GRIMES: No.

22
 2 learned that your money

3 was in the Cayman Islands rather than in the Channel

4 Islands, when did you first become aware of that?

5 A. I think 1995.

6 151 Q. After Mr. Traynor's death?

7 A. After Mr. Traynor's death, yes.

8 152 Q. How did you become aware of that?

9 A. I think it was when Paul Carty was looking for the

10 money, I think that was the time it surfaced that it

11 was in the Cayman Islands.

12 153 Q. Was it Mr. Carty told you that it was in the Cayman

13 Islands?

14 A. It was, I think, yes.

15 154 Q. Had he learned that from Mr. Collery?

16 A. I don't know, well I would expect he did, when he

17 went to get the money he must have told him, I

18 expect, I don't know.

19 155 Q. Were you surprised to learn that your money was in

20 the Cayman Islands?

21 A. I was amazed.

22 156 Q. Did you enquire how that came about?

23 A. I didn't do anything about it, I mean what was I

24 going to do there was a trust there.

25 157 Q. Did you ask?

26 A. No, I didn't know, how was I to know it was there.

27 I didn't know, I was amazed it had got there, how

28 did it get there, I didn't know it had got there.

29 158 Q. Exactly, did you not ask Mr. Carty to look into this

23
 1 and make sure that it was your money that you were

2 talking about the same trust and were you not a bit

3 anxious that perhaps this was not the correct trust?

4 A. I wasn't a bit anxious because Guinness & Mahon were

5 the people who was the original bank and I thought

6 everything was alright.

7 159 Q. Did you say to Mr. Carty maybe we better look into

8 this and see is this the same money that was in the

9 Channel Islands or how it got there, or did

10 Mr. Carty have some explanation for it?

11 A. No, I don't remember being worried about it. The

12 only thing I was worried about, here I am in the

13 Cayman Islands how I got there, but I didn't follow

14 it up.

15 160 Q. You didn't follow it up?

16 A. No.

17 161 Q. You were satisfied that that was your money?

18 A. I was satisfied, well I expected it was my money, it

19 must have been.

20 162 Q. From about 1995 you knew your money was in the

21 Cayman Islands and not in the Channel Islands and

22 you were satisfied that however it happened it was

23 your money and it had somehow or other been

24 transferred from the Channel Islands?

25 A. Yes, and I had nothing to do with it.

26 163 Q. Going back for a moment to the very beginning of the

27 whole thing when Mr. Traynor told you that if you

28 wanted to get back your money you could do so. Did

29 he say to you what you were to do if you wanted to

24
 2 A. No.

3 164 Q. So how?

4 A. I didn't ever think it was going to arise. I didn't

5 ask him or he didn't tell me.

6 165 Q. Did he say that you would ask him, for example?

7 A. No -- we are thirty years back I can't go into every

8 question and give you a straight answer.

9 166 Q. Looking again at your solicitor's statement (Exhibit

10 1) on your behalf could we go back to page 2 and to

11 the second paragraph where your solicitor talks

12 about his telephone conversation with Ansbacher in

13 Cayman. Do you see that, do you see the second last

14 sentence:

15 "They advised me that the trust owns a

company which was incorporated on 28th
16 June, 1989 in the Cayman Islands and is
known as Drogheda Investments Ltd."
17 Do you know anything about that, Mr. Walsh, about

18 Drogheda Investments?

19 A. No, I never heard tell of it until I saw this.

20 167 Q. Never saw any statements of company accounts or

21 anything like that relating to Drogheda Investments?

22 A. No.

23 168 Q. When the trust was in the Channel Islands was there

24 a company involved with it?

25 A. There was a trust there but they didn't tell me the

26 name.

27 169 Q. They didn't tell you whether it owned a company such

28 as this one here in Cayman?

29 A. No.

25
 2 were not aware of any company connected with your

3 trust?

4 A. A company connected with my trust, not that I know

5 of, no not that I know of, I can't answer that.

6 171 Q. If I could just recap then on your evidence here

7 today to make sure I have it correctly and correct

8 me if I am incorrect. You established a trust in

9 the Channel Islands?

10 A. Correct.

11 172 Q. In the early 1970's?

12 A. Correct.

13 173 Q. And you signed a trust deed, to the best of your

14 recollection?

15 A. Yes.

16 174 Q. The beneficiaries were your nieces and nephews and

17 yourself; is that correct?

18 A. Well not myself, myself I suppose if you include the

19 £100,000.

20 175 Q. Were you named in the trust deed, can you recollect,

21 as a beneficiary?

22 A. No, I don't think so. No, I don't believe so. Not

23 that I know of anyhow.

24 176 Q. You have no copy of this trust deed?

25 A. I haven't, no.

26 177 Q. None has been furnished to you from the Channel

27 Islands?

28 A. No.

29 178 Q. You settled £100,000 on this trust?

26
 2 179 Q. Subsequently the years passed, you received no

3 statements of those accounts, but at some stage

4 Mr. Traynor told you it was doing well?

5 A. Yes.

6 180 Q. And you understood, therefore, that it was growing?

7 A. Yes.

8 181 Q. That interest was accumulating on it. In 1995,

9 after Mr. Traynor's death, you wished to take back

10 your original investment and you didn't know who to

11 go to so you went to Mr. Carty, your accountant?

12 A. Correct.

13 182 Q. He made enquiries on your behalf from Mr. Collery?

14 A. Yes.

15 183 Q. At that point he discovered, and he told you, that

16 the trust was no longer in the Channel Islands but

17 was with Ansbacher Cayman; is that right?

18 A. I presume he must have.

19 184 Q. What you told us earlier was that that was when you

20 learned of it in 1995?

21 A. Yes.

22 185 Q. He told you that he would be able to recover your

23 investment for you?

24 A. Yes.

25 186 Q. The next that you knew of it was when you received a

26 cheque in the post for the sum; is that correct?

27 A. Correct.

28 187 Q. In the meantime, as far as you know, the interest

29 that accumulated on that original £100,000 is still

27
 1 there in the Cayman Islands and you were told what

2 it amounted to by your solicitor and we are not

3 concerned with the amount. What do you propose to

4 do about that now?

5 A. Leave it there for my nieces and nephews.

6 188 Q. Leave it there for your nieces and nephews, I see.

7 During the years between 1972 to date did you

8 declare to the Revenue Commissioners here in Ireland

9 the interest that was accruing on that £100,000?

10 A. No, because the trustees were the ones.

11 189 Q. You didn't declare it?

12 A. I didn't declare it, no.

13 MS. COSTELLO: Might I just have a brief

14 word with my client?

15 MS. MACKEY: Certainly.

16 A. The money that I put in was money I paid tax on,

17 money I had got through Grassland Fertilizers

18 190 Q. MS. MACKEY: I was simply asking you

19 about the interest that

20 had accumulated. When you were transferring the

21 original £100,000 how did you do it?

22 A. Over about a six month period.

23 191 Q. How was it done?

24 A. Through Guinness & Mahon. I got a lot of export

25 dividends from Grassland and I had some money, I

26 mean I had been working thirty years at that stage

27 and we had a green grocers business and we had a bar

28 and what not.

29 192 Q. It is really the mechanics that I am interested in

28
 1 of what you actually did in order to transfer it?

2 A. Just posted it to Guinness & Mahon.

3 193 Q. To who in Guinness & Mahon?

4 A. To Des Traynor.

5 194 Q. To Mr. Traynor himself?

6 A. Yes.

7 195 Q. In varying amounts over a period of six months?

8 A. Roughly, I can't say whether it was six, seven,

9 five.

10 196 Q. You would send him a cheque, from time to time?

11 A. Yes.

12 197 Q. Would he acknowledge those cheques each time that he

13 got them?

14 A. No, I don't remember getting receipts from him or

15 anything.

16 198 Q. You didn't get any receipts. Would he acknowledge

17 it on the telephone?

18 A. He would acknowledge, yes, that he got the money.

19 199 Q. You were satisfied that...(INTERJECTION).

20 A. I was satisfied that he had the money, yes.

21 200 Q. Once you had transferred it to Des Traynor as far as

22 you were concerned he looked after it after that,

23 was that it?

24 A. He looked after it after that, yes.

25 201 Q. During the years leading up to 1995, I think you

26 have answered this already, did you make any other

27 withdrawals from the trust fund at all?

28 A. No, only one withdrawal.

29 202 Q. Just the one?

29
 2 203 Q. Did you ever add, after the initial £100,000, did

3 you ever add?

4 A. No, I didn't put any money in.

5 MS. MACKEY: I have no further

6 questions, Mr. Walsh,

7 thank you very much. Mr. Rowan may have some.

8 MR. ROWAN: Mr. Walsh, we will have a

9 break now for some coffee

10 and there will be some coffee supplied to you. We

11 are going to leave the room for ten minutes or so.

12

13 SHORT ADJOURNMENT

14

15 204 Q. MR. ROWAN: We will continue now.

16 Prior to getting this

17 document (Exhibit 2) I wanted to ask you whether

18 you, as an individual, had ever borrowed any money

19 from Guinness & Mahon?

20 A. No, never. From Guinness & Mahon, my company might,

21 Grassland might have, but I personally never

22 borrowed money from Guinness & Mahon.

23 205 Q. That was going to be my second question then, did

24 any of the companies with which you had an

25 involvement, borrow any money from Guinness & Mahon

26 or from Irish Intercontinental Bank in the '90's?

27 A. No, never, never used the money up there for any

28 purposes. We never had any reason to use it. The

29 answer is no, I suppose, in short.

30
 1 206 Q. The answer is no to any of the companies with which

2 you had an involvement, having borrowed money from

3 Guinness & Mahon?

4 A. That is correct.

5 MR. GORE-GRIMES: No, that is not correct.

6 He didn't say that.

7 MR. ROWAN: Sorry, then I

8 misunderstood.

9 A. Sorry, I didn't listen to your question.

10 MR. GORE-GRIMES: He said that Grassland

11 Fertilizers had a normal

12 trading relationship with Guinness & Mahon in which

13 they borrowed monies, so it wouldn't be right to say

14 that no company with which he was associated.

15 207 Q. MR. ROWAN: Just for clarification,

16 Grassland Fertilizers

17 borrowed money, from time to time, from Guinness &

18 Mahon?

19 A. I would imagine so.

20 208 Q. Can you give me some more information about those

21 loans to Grassland Fertilizers?

22 A. No, I wouldn't be able to, I would never be able to

23 give you information. I was only a member of the

24 board, I wouldn't know, they were doing business

25 with Guinness & Mahon.

26 209 Q. You were an non-executive director?

27 A. A non-executive director, correct.

28 210 Q. You became involved with Grassland Fertilizers in

29 1966?

31
 1 A. Yes .

2 MR. GORE-GRIMES: Sorry, I think he said it

3 was a family company

4 before, this man Arnold Suhr took the investment in

5 1966, the Walshs owned the company they started it

6 in 1964.

7 A. We started it in 1964 and then sold a share to

8 Arnold Suhr.

9 MR. GORE-GRIMES: So controlling interest

10 to this Swiss German,

11 Arnold Suhr.

12 211 Q. MR. ROWAN: Well then if I may just

13 look at this document

14 which you handed us just now, this document is a

15 letter from Guinness & Mahon dated 24th May, 2000

16 (Exhibit 2) and it is a letter to your solicitor and

17 it is a reference to P J Walsh, who is P J Walsh?

18 A. He is my brother.

19 MR. GORE-GRIMES: I think it is supposed to

20 be P & J.

21 212 Q. MR. ROWAN: So it is P & J Walsh?

22 A. Yes .

23 213 Q. So P & J Walsh is that a firm or a company?

24 A. No, it is not, no, we were just individuals, that's

25 all.

26 214 Q. So, the P is your brother and the J is yourself?

27 A. Correct.

28 215 Q. The pair of you made an application for a loan in

29 1986 and you got an approval to that and that is the

 2 A. Yes.

3 216 Q. This is an internal document, by the look of it,

4 from Guinness & Mahon, where you had applied for a

5 loan of £420,000?

6 A. Correct.

7 217 Q. With the purpose to take up your share of a £2

8 million rights issue in Grassland Fertilizers?

9 MR. GORE-GRIMES: Their share of.

10 218 Q. MR. ROWAN: I believe earlier it was

11 suggested that this loan

12 did not in fact take place?

13 A. No, it was never used, we sold our share in the

14 company.

15 219 Q. I see. You will see on the second page under a

16 heading called "security" you will see item one "P

17 and J Walsh considered adequate for this amount", do

18 you have any appreciation of the significance of

19 that comment?

20 A. We had £2 million there and we had our own business

21 as well as security for it.

22 220 Q. Yes, and on the main letter on the previous page in

23 the first sentence it says:

24 "I enclose here with copy loan approval

dated 18th August, 1986 which shows
25 that a loan of £420,000 for P and J
Walsh was considered adequate."
26

27 That term "considered adequate" was a term which was

28 used by Guinness & Mahon and Ansbacher to indicate

29 that the organisation applying for the loan had a

33
 2 Ansbacher. That is what that word means in Guinness

3 & Mahon Parlands at the time.

4 MR. GORE-GRIMES: I think that is not quite

5 right. Sorry to

6 interrupt, but I think the wording, because I have

7 been at the Moriarty Tribunal on many occasions, I

8 think "adequately secured" was the word that was

9 normally used the word "secured" was the word that

10 was important to them in their formula, "adequately

11 secured" or "considered adequately secured" I think

12 the word "secured" was always used in that formula,

13 as far as I remember.

14 MR. ROWAN: If you go back to the

15 previous page you will see

16 this is a reference to security.

17 MR. GORE-GRIMES: Of course it is a

18 reference to security, no

19 doubt.

20 221 Q. MR. ROWAN: But in any event,

21 Mr. Walsh, the loan did

22 not take place?

23 A. No.

24 222 Q. You indicated that when you were contemplating

25 creating the trust you talked it over with your

26 accountant in Kilkenny, Mr. Des Crowley. Which firm

27 was Mr. Crowley with, Mr. Walsh?

28 A. His private company of his own.

29 223 Q. He had his own firm?

34
 2 fifteen years.

3 224 Q. Also in the statement which you made to us, you

4 mentioned the issue of exchange control. When the

5 £100,000 was being transferred to the trust in the

6 Channel Islands, did you consider there was an issue

7 of exchange control approval needed at that time?

8 A. I would say that Des Traynor, I wouldn't know a lot

9 about exchange control, it wouldn't mean a whole lot

10 to me. I wouldn't understand that part of the

11 business, as I said I was in school until 14 years

12 of age and I wouldn't know. You might say I was

13 advised, but I didn't know anything about it.

14 225 Q. So you didn't think about the issue of exchange

15 control?

16 A. No, I didn't, no.

17 226 Q. And if there was such a requirement you would have

18 left that to Mr. Traynor?

19 A. Mr. Traynor, yes, he would have told me that, he was

20 my adviser at that stage, because he would have

21 known.

22 MR. GORE-GRIMES: Mr. Rowan I just must say

23 that I think in '71, '72

24 there was no question of exchange control as a fact,

25 so I don't think it is fair to put that question to

26 him. In '71 '72 the Channel Islands were in the

27 sterling area so I don't think that it is a fair

28 question.

29 MR. ROWAN: That's correct. I think

35
 1 those were the points that

2 we just wanted to clarify, Mr. Walsh. You were

3 going to say?

4 A. I was going to say that one of the reasons, I have

5 no family and that was one of the reasons the trust

6 started in the first instance and my wife was looked

7 after even though I could have the trust, I wasn't

8 taking money from her, I had no family of my own.

9 My solicitor is continuing enquiring about it and

10 anything we get we will hand it over to you just

11 like we are after giving you this from Guinness &

12 Mahon, anything we get you will have it.

13 MR. ROWAN: We do appreciate that.

14 MR. GORE-GRIMES: We do intend to go after

15 it.

16 MS. MACKEY: Thank you, we appreciate

17 the co-operation.

18 MR. ROWAN: We will have the interview

19 transcribed and

20 Ms. Cummins will be in touch with you about that and

21 we will have to ask you to come in and sign it in

22 due course.

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. ROWAN: Thank you very much.

25

26 THE INTERVIEW WAS THEN CONCLUDED

27

28

29

36
b> PeVrvMv^ o\
 ch

GORE & GRIMES

-SOLICITORS
CAVENDISH HOUSE. SMITHFIELD. DUBLIN 7

TEL: (01)872 9299 - 872 9744 FAX: 872 9877 D.D.E. BOX No. 62
E-Mail: solrs@goregrimes.ie

OUR RBF: AGGVJL VO»IR RH<:

W01745.1

The Inspectors Appointed to Examine

the Affairs of Ansbacher (Cayman)
Limited,
3 rd Floor,
Trident House,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.
3rd May, 2000

RE: JOSEPH WALSH

ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LIMITED dftHAY

Dear Sire,
Irefer to my letter of the 23rd March, and have now had an opportunity of obtaining
my client's instructions in relation to your letter of the 1* March.
My client fs prepared to assist you In connection with your investigation to the best of
his ability.
It is noted that you require Information under two headlngs:-
1. To establish the nature and extent of the Company's Irish business.
2. To establish whether or not the Company conducted Its affairs to enable my
client wrongfully to evade the payment of taxes which he was legally bound to
pay.

Please note that my client has not wrongfully evaded the payment of taxes and
therefore the second part of your query does not arise Inrelationto him. My dienfs
responses therefore will confined to dealing with the first part of your enquiry.
My client does not have any documentation of any kind Inrelationto this matter but
on his instructions I have written to Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited, and to Credit
Suisse In Guernsey asking them to fUrnish me with any information that may be
relevant to the questions raised by you In Appendix C.

woirwi/ionES-iiCT
 r*

The reasonfor writing to Credit Suisse Guernsey was that they took over College
Trustees Limited and therefore might well have the documentation relating to the
structure which might have been set up in Guernsey.
My client has received a letter from Credit Suisse Trust on which they indicate that
they cannot see any record of Mr Walsh having been a client of College Trustees
Limited, and are unable to assist in providing the information which I requested.
During a telephone conversation which I have had with Mr Brian Ellis of that
company, he indicated to me that the matter might well have been dealt with by
Guinness & Mahon Jersey Limited although that company has ceased to exist and
he could not assist me as to where I could applyfor information. I am now therefore
writing to Guinness & Mahon Dublin for assistance.

^ I have not as yetreceivedanyresponsefrom Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited to my

letter, but I telephoned them and was advised that a Trust was established on the
27th November 1989 in which the settlor was John Furze. The beneficiaries of the
Trust are stated to be the British Red Cross or anyone who pays the sum of US$10
to the Cayman Island Branch of the British Red Cross. The Trust Is a discretionary
one. They advised me that the Trust owns a company which was incorporated on
the 28th of June 1989 in the Cayman Islands and is known as Drogheda Investments
Limited. They advised me that they did not have a letter of wishes.

My client has asked me to deal with the numbered paragraphs in Appendix C which
are answered to the best of my client's knowledge at thistimeand subject to his
obtaining other information .which he has requested:-

1. My client did not cause any Deed of Trust to be created in the Cayman
Islands. He caused a Deed of Trust to be executed in the Channel Islands
though he does not have any copy of this.
(a) My client was not involved in any correspondence.

(b) The only moneys which my client transferred were transferred to

Guinness & Mahon Limitedfor onwards transmission by way of loan to
the Channel Islands structure set up by Guinness & Mahon. It would
not appear that this structure Included the Company which is the
subject of your investigation.
(c) Seereplyto (b).

(d) The only payment which my client received from the trust structure was
the sum of £100,000.00 which I am instructedrepresented a
repayment of a loan originally made by him to the Channel Island
structure.

(e) My client did not transfer any funds or assets as explained above.

(f) As stated above my client understands that there is no letter of wishes

In relation to the Cayman island Trust.

«W174»m072SS-t.LET
2
r*

(g) My client has no record of any correspondence. After Mr Traynor's

death in 1994 my client was not sure who to contact in Guinness &
Mahon. In 1995 he requested Mr Paul Carty of Deloitte & Touche to
enquire from Guinness & Mahon of the person who would be dealing
with the trust The instruction given by my client to obtain a repayment
of the loan was given through Mr Paul Carty to Mr Padraig Collery.

2. My client was not aware of this service and did not avail of It

3. My client was not aware of this service and did not avail of it.

4. My client was not aware of this service and did not avail of it

5. My client was not aware of this service and did not avail of it

6. My client understands that Exchange Control permission was notrequired for

therepaymentof the £100,000.00 loanreferred to above. This is the only
financial transaction which my client had with the Company. The initial loan to
the Channel Island trust structure does not appear to fall within the ambit of
your enquiry.

7. My client was hot aware of these services and did not avail of them. As
stated above, my client dealt with Guinness & Mahon Limited and through
them with their Channel Island structure. As stated above my client is writing
to Guinness & Mahon Limited to see if they can throw any light on the
Guinness & Mahon Jersey structure but of course this does not strictly foil
within the ambit of your enquiries.

8. (a) My client is not aware of any body or corporation that fall within this
category.
(b) Ditto.

(c) Ditto.
(d) My client's position withregard to the Trust settled by Mr John Furze is
as set out in the earlier part of this letter.

I confirm that my client will attend at your offices oh Monday the 29 th May at 10.00
a.m. and will be accompanied by myself and Ms Carolien Costello, B.L.

Yours sincerely,

Ar^tfjony Gore-Grimes

W0174S1/10RES-t.LET
3
Appendix XV (132) (1) (c)
 GUINNESS & MAHON
PRIVATE BANKERS

Private & Confidential

-Addressee Only
J u l n m w a Mahon
Intend) Ltd.
4 Eariatort Terrace Mr. Anthony Gore-Grimes,
Dublin 2
Gore & Grimes,
Ibtophone 24th May 2000
01 70S 6200
Solicitors,
Facsimile Cavendish House, OurRefi CMacC/MM
01 700 5210 Smithfield,
Tela*
93667 Dublin, 7.
DubNn Document
Exchange 22
E-Mail Dear Mr. Gore-Grimes,
InfoOgmbankJe
http://www.gmbank.le

Re: P.J. Walsh

RiflWmd OIHoa as above
RagMarad Na 100«a
A member of the
^•^riah Parmanant Gtraup

I enclose herewith copy loan approval dated 18th August 1986, which
shows that a ban of £420,000for P. & J. Walsh was considered adequate. At
the present moment the Bank has not been able to locate any other
documentation relating to any ofishore entity in connection with Mr. Walsh.

Yours sincerely,

a£? Cathal MacCarthy,

1
Group Chief Legal Officer.
Appendix XV (132) (1) (d)
P. & J. WALSH / HEW FACILITY

Amount: £420,000 Loan

(Or equivalent in any EMS Currency).
Purpose: 9
To take up their share of a £2m Rights Issue in
ool^ Grassland Fertilisers, total requirement £570k.
Walsh's own 28.1Z of tha equity.
Te rm/Eepayment: I Tear to 31.8.87.
From Sale of investments and/or land.
Rate:
Cost +2X * RAC.'
Security: t. P. & J. Walsh . considered adequate for this
Amount.
2. Deposit of share certificates vith blank
transfers and power of sale over their 28.11Z
holding in Grassland Fertilisers Limited. Estimat
value £2.0m.
Total Exposure: £420,000.
Re c contended:
Appendix XV (132) (1) (e)
 Cted^rO^MiJki
r~ Submitted by: MCK
Kilkenny Equity Stake: N o.
C.B. Approval: Yes/No
^ /Co. Directors. Props, of P. Walsh & Sons Ltd. Permission Obtained
Kilkenny. Date: F C B I submitted.

fcATION: New Facility /

(Delate as appropriate) 'Existing facilities overleaf
.Loan AMOUNT: . . . . M M ! ? . RATE: .?*..-. F E E :
+
(or equivalent in any R.A.C.
E.^srouirewsyr"

|M*«HM«M«*t«IM«M*M»flHII*M*«»*Ht«*>

PURPOSE/DRAWDOWN: If new or Increased

facilities, is drawdown
permitted prior to
.'o take up their share of a £2m. Rights Issue in Grassland ..
completion of security?
•ertilizprs, total requirement' £5.70k. - Vaish *a -own.28.1Z of
;^r«vequity.
YES/XXX

TERM OF FACILITIES: REVIEW DATES:

1 year to 31.8.1987. 31.8.87.

SOURCE OF REPAYMENT:
From sale of investments and or land.

SECURITY: If additional or existing

facility, is security In order?
I. F. & J. Walsh considered adequate for this amount.:
YES/NO
2. Deposit of share certificates with blank transfers and If No, give details separately.
power of sale over their 28.1 % holding in Grassland
Fertilizers Limited. Estimated value £2.0m+
•

BACKGROUND NOTE/
OUTLINE OF PROPOSAL:
Hie Walsh's are taking up their rights In the proposed rights issue to avoid dilution of their
lolding which would result In their losing their right to have two Directors on the Board of
Grassland. The family company, D. Walsh & Sons, is substantial and they have close links
vith Avonmore and Waterford Co-Op. Recommended.

delated Facilities/Borrowers: CREDIT COMMITTEE

Balance or Limit, whichever is greater)
Minute (
/..R7>..k ^
Date.,
D JXAJ^..

Recommended

80ARD

otal Exposure: £420,000

Si
Minute.......^. ^Date....^..?/.^
Appendix XV (133) Mr Ivan Webb, deceased
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Ivan Webb.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mrs Valerie Webb dated 29 March 2001.

b) Statement of Mrs Valarie Webb dated 25 February 2001.

c) Letter of 18 August 1971 - Kennedy Crowley & Co to Mr John Ronan.

d) Letter of 8 March 1972 - Kennedy Crowley & Co to Mr George

Crampton.

e) Guinness and Mahon statement of 29 July 1983 re Mrs V Webb.

f) Ansbacher Limited statement of 3 October 1994 re a/c A/A47.

g) Ansbacher Cayman Limited statement of 31 December 1991 re a/c A/A47.

h) Copy statement of 8 November 1989 re Mrs V Webb.

i) Ansbacher Limited statement of 12 October 1993 re a/c A/A47.

Appendix XV (133) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MRS. VALERIE WEBB

UNDER AFFIRMATION

ON THURSDAY, 2 9TH MARCH 2001

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer
The Inspectors: JUDGE S. 0'LEARY

MS. N. MACKEY BL

Solicitor to the Inspectors: MS. F. GAYNOR

Interviewee: MRS. V. WEBB

Instructed by: MR. T. 0'GRADY

MATTHESON ORMSBY

PRENTICE SOLICITORS
 1 THE INTERVIEW WITH MRS. VALERIE WEBB COMMENCED AS

2 FOLLOWS ON THURSDAY, 29TH MARCH 2001:

5 1 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Good afternoon, my name is

6 Sean O'Leary. I am one of

7 the Inspectors. There are four Inspectors.

8 Ms. Mackey is with me today. The other two

9 Inspectors are not involved in your side of the

10 business, if there is any side at all so any

11 decision that would be taken will be taken by the

12 two of us that are here today. Do you understand

13 that?

14 A. Yes.

15 2 Q. This is an information gathering exercise. The

16 purpose of it is quite simple: We have been asked

17 to investigate a company called Ansbacher Ltd, a

18 Cayman Island company which had a number of other

19 different names including Guinness Mahon Cayman

20 Trust or GMCT. We have been asked to investigate

21 that company. One of the things the High Court has

22 asked us to do is to establish who the Irish clients

23 of the company were. That is of course not saying

24 that any of the Irish clients did anything wrong.

25 That is a different matter all together. We are not

26 involved in that side of it at all. All we are

27 trying to find out is who were the clients of the

28 company in Ireland of this Ansbacher or Guinness

29 Mahon Cayman Trust.

3
 1 We have invited a large number of people in.

2 You are just one person that came in. It is a very

3 informal situation. We will explain to you what the

4 position is and ask your recollection of it, if you

5 have any recollection of it. A note will be taken

6 of it. It is a very informal procedure. The only

7 formal portion of the procedure is the administering

8 of the oath. I would ask Ms. Mackey to administer

9 the oath.

10 A. I am not going to swear on a bible.

11 3 Q. You can affirm.

12 A. I am not a believer I am afraid.

13 4 Q. That is grand. You are perfectly entitled.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

4
 1 MRS. VALERIE WEBB, HAVING BEEN AFFIRMED, WAS

2 EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY JUDGE 0'LEARY:

4 5 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: You are very welcome

5 indeed. We note that you

6 have a solicitor with you and we are very happy to

7 see that you have a solicitor with you. At any time

8 during the course of the consultation if you want to

9 consult with your solicitor, you can stop and say

10 'Would you hold on a second, I would like to talk to

11 my solicitor' and we will withdraw from the room and

12 let you consult with him. Similarly if your

13 solicitor feels at any time that he would like to

14 consult with you, all he has to do is to say to us

15 'Would you please stop' and we will stop and go

16 outside the room. Do you understand?

17 A. Yes.

18 6 Q. Feel perfectly free to use his facilities in that

19 way during the course of the interview.

20 Mrs. Webb, the first thing I would ask you are a few

21 background details. We understand that you were

22 married to a man by the name of Webb, is that

23 correct?

24 A. That's right.

25 7 Q. What was his first name?

26 A. Ivan.

27 8 Q. He died sometime ago, Mrs. Webb, didn't he?

28 A. Yes.

29 9 Q. The information which we have is that it might have

5
 1 been in 1972. Are we right or wrong in that?

2 A. That's right.

3 10 Q. What time of the year in 1972 did he die do you

4 remember?

5 A. June I think.

6 HQ. What did Mr. Ivan Webb do for a living?

7 A. He was in Cramptons builders.

8 12 Q. He was an executive there?

9 A. He was the managing director.

10 13 Q. Was he actually the manager director?

11 A. Yes.

12 14 Q. That was a responsible position obviously?

13 A. Yes.

14 15 Q. He must have been comparatively young when he died?

15 A. He was a lot older than me.

16 16 Q. He died in 1972?

17 A. Yes.

18 17 Q. Before he died were you aware as to whether he had

19 any money on deposit overseas?

20 A. No.

21 18 Q. You knew nothing about that?

22 A. No.

23 19 Q. Did you know anything about the existence of any

24 trusts overseas at that time?

25 A. No.

26 20 Q. So you had no information with regard to those

27 matters?

28 A. No.

29 21 Q. And I suppose in the normal way his estate was

6
 1 administered and distributed in whatever way he

2 wished in his will, is that correct?

3 A. Yes .

4 22 Q. Who was the executor or executrix of his will, do

5 you remember?

6 A. I don't know.

7 23 Q. It wasn't you?

8 A. I don't know, I don't remember. It is nearly

9 30 years ago.

10 24 Q. Do the names Clarke, Seymour, Sidney East and

11 George Crampton mean anything to you?

12 A. Yes, they were all directors of the company.

13 25 Q. We have Mr. George Crampton. We have Mr. Clarke,

14 Mr. Seymour, Mr. J Sidney East and Mr. Ivan Webb?

15 A. Yes .

16 26 Q. You obviously know a little about that so I am going

17 to show you a letter at page 62 -- Exhibit 1 --

18 which was written a few months before your husband

19 died. Could I first of all say to you that the

20 names of the other directors are in there as well.

21 We normally don't show other names to people but

22 because this is something that happened between the

23 six of them, we feel that it is only right and

24 proper that we should be open and frank with you and

25 give you all the information. But we don't want you

26 to mention the other names to anybody. Do you

27 understand?

28 A. Yes .

29 27 Q. Except your solicitor. Obviously it is private.

 1 MR. 0'GRADY: Might I have a look at the

2 letter?

3 JUDGE O'LEARY: Of course, absolutely.

4 In fact I will read the

5 relevant portions of it to you and it might help you

6 because it is not easy to read when you are under a

7 little bit of scrutiny. It is from Kennedy Crowley

8 & Co. Chartered Accountants. It says: "Re: Cayman

9 Islands Trust." It is addressed to a man by the

10 name of John Ronan who was a solicitor himself I

11 think. It says:

12 "Dear John,
In the course of discussions which I
13 had on Friday with Messrs. George
Crampton and Don O'Connor I was asked
14 to write to you asking you to advise
them and Messrs. S. Clarke, S. Seymour,
15 J. Sidney East and I. Webb regarding
the establishment of discretionary
16 trusts in the Cayman Islands. I had
already sent you for general
17 information a draft of a trust deed
which is used in the Cayman Islands and
18 the above-named would like to you
advise them as a group on the
19 suitability of such a trust deed for
their purposes but at a later stage
20 reference will of course be necessary
to the individual requirements of each.
21
In the first instance they would wish
22 to have written advice and at a later
stage they would like to discuss this
23 written advice with you at some
suitable occasion when you are in town.
24
As you know from your other connections
25 these trusts will be the recipients
ultimately of certain tax free profits
26 in the Cayman Islands and the anxiety
is that the arrangements should be as
27 flexible as possible, consistent with
the continuing tax free status of the
28 trust and of appointments made by the
trustees to the beneficiaries of the
29 trust.

8
 1 I have already given you some comment
on the general features the trust deed
2 and if you feel a further discussion
would be helpful please let me know.
3
I am sending a copy of this letter to
4 Mr. G.C. Crampton.

5 Yours sincerely, D. Reid."

D
7 Over the page it says:

8 "I would like to mention that in each

case the settler would be a Cayman
9 Islands resident and appointor would be
the appropriate individual named
10 above."

11

12 That was a scheme which was being put in place at

13 that time. We have information that the scheme

14 actually was implemented. We have evidence from the

15 other people that the scheme was implemented.

16 Unfortunately it was implemented around March 1972

17 and your husband was still alive at that stage and

18 you don't know anything about it, is that correct?

19 A. Yes .

20 28 Q. After your husband's death when was the first time

21 that you got to know that there might be money

22 somewhere offshore for you?

23 A. I don't know.

24 29 Q. Did you ever get a note?

25 A. No, I knew I had money in Guinness & Mahon.

26 30 Q. But you had an account in Guinness & Mahon?

27 A. Yes .

28 31 Q. But you showed us the account in Guinness & Mahon.

29 You gave us a copy of the account in Guinness &

 1 Mahon. That is only what I would call small amounts

2 of money which were drawn out from time to time?

3 A. Yes.

4 32 Q. But there was a lump sum of money somewhere?

5 A. I didn't know anything about that.

6 33 Q. You didn't know?

7 A. No.

8 34 Q. But of course you accept that there was such money?

9 A. Yes.

10 35 Q. Do you accept that there was such money?

11 MR. 0'GRADY: If I could have a brief

12 word with my client?

13 JUDGE O'LEARY: Certainly. You might

14 refer your client to the

15 contents of her statement?

16 MR. 0'GRADY: Sure, absolutely.

17 MR. O'LEARY: Which is consistent with

18 the question I am asking?

19 MR. 0'GRADY: Indeed.

20 JUDGE O'LEARY: We will leave for a few

21 minutes.

22

23 SHORT ADJOURNMENT

24

25

26

27

28

29

10
 1 36 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Getting back to the

2 question after your

3 husband died, after sometime you became aware that

4 funds were available, is that correct?

5 A. Yes •

6 37 Q. Who> told you that?

7 A. I don't know, somebody from the company I suppose.

8 38 Q. Would it have been Sidney Seymour?

9 A. Yes , probably.

10 39 Q. He was the man that you had most contact with?

11 A. Yes •

12 40 Q. You. might like to refer to your statement.

13 In your statement you said:

14 "In the mid 1970's I was made aware by

Sidney Seymour, a director of
15 Cramptons, of the existence of a fund
invested by Cramptons for my benefit.
16 I was informed that the source of funds
was the proceeds of a sale by
17 Cramptons."

18

19 Is that correct?

20 A. I don't know.

21 41 Q. It goes on to say:

22 "I contacted Mr. Seymour on a number of

occasions. I was informed that if I
23 needed access to the funds I was to
contact Mr. Seymour. I contacted
24 Mr. Seymour on a number of occasions
between 1980 and 1994 and Mr. Seymour
25 arranged for monies to be lodged to my
current account set up for me in the
26 bank."

27

28 Is that correct?

29 A. Yes , I got the money from...1 had an account in

11
 1 Guinness & Mahon.

2 42 Q. Yes, but how did the money come into that account?

3 A. I don't know; I didn't give it much thought.

4 I didn't think about it.

5 43 Q. I don't understand that. Here you are, you are

6 getting money into an account and you are saying you

7 didn't think about it?

8 A. I don't know, it was just money there.

9 44 Q. "Just money there." I see. Do you remember in

10 October 1994 you received a sum of £70,590. Do you

11 remember that?

12 A. Yes.

13 45 Q. Who did you get that from?

14 A. I don't know where it came from.

15 4 6 Q. Yes, but who did you get it from; who handed it over

16 to you?

17 A. Somebody dealt with it for me.

18 47 Q. Who dealt with it for you?

19 A. Don Reid.

20 48 Q. That is the gentlemen who was in Stokes Kennedy

21 Crowley?

22 A. Pardon.

23 49 Q. That is the accountant that was in Stokes Kennedy

24 Crowley, is that correct?

25 A. I don't know where he was, I just know him.

26 I met him once.

27 50 Q. How did he deal with it for you?

28 A. I don't know.

29 51 Q. Did he come along to you and say 'By the way,

12
 1 Mrs. Webb, I have some good news for you. I have

2 £70,000 to give you' or did you contact him to say

3 'Look, there is some money somewhere for me. Would

4 you deal with it for me.' ?

5 A. Yes.

6 52 Q. What happened?

7 A. I wanted to have the money in my own control instead

8 of having to ask somebody all the time for it.

9 53 Q. What did you do?

10 A. So he got the money.

11 54 Q. But did you ask him to did that?

12 A. Yes.

13 55 Q. Where did you think the money was?

14 A. I didn't know.

15 56 Q. When this money was being given to you at various

16 times over the years, who would have told you

17 'The money has arrived in the account now and you

18 can use it?'

19 A. I don't know what you mean?

20 57 Q. Earlier on, before you got the £70,000 you got some

21 other money?

22 A. Yes.

23 58 Q. Do you remember how much else you got?

24 A. No.

25 59 Q. Do you remember who you asked for the money?

26 A. Yes, I asked Sidney Seymour.

27 60 Q. Did you say 'Mr. Seymour, I would like £10,000' or

28 did you say 'Mr. Seymour, I would like as much as

29 you can afford.' How did you put the request to

13
 1 him?

2 A. I would say £5,000 or £10,000. I never wanted very

3 much money.

4 61 Q. You would say to him you wanted £5,000 or £10,000?

5 A. Yes.

6 62 Q. Or whatever it was?

7 A. Whatever it was, yes.

8 63 Q. He would make the necessary arrangements?

9 A. Yes, I presume so.

10 64 Q. Did you ever receive a statement showing this money?

11 A. No.

12 65 Q. You have given us statements which you got from

13 Guinness & Mahon. They are unremarkable; they are

14 straightforward?

15 A. Yes.

16 66 Q. The only thing that is a little bit unusual about it

17 is, for example at page 27 -- Exhibit 2. I will

18 give you my own page. (Same handed) You see that a

19 sum of £2000 goes into that account there. You can

20 look at it there. You see where there is a

21 lodgement of £2000?

22 A. Yes.

23 67 Q. It says it comes from a deposit account?

24 A. Yes.

25 68 Q. Did you have a deposit account as well?

26 A. No.

27 69 Q. You never had a deposit account?

28 A. No.

29 70 Q. You had only one account in Guinness & Mahon?

14
 1 A. Yes, I think so.

2 71 Q. When did you open that account, Mrs. Webb?

3 A. I don't know, I don't remember.

4 72 Q. Was it before or after your husband died do you

5 think?

6 A. It must have been after.

7 73 Q. Was the purpose of opening that account so that you

8 could receive the monies from Mr. Seymour from time

9 to time?

10 A. Yes.

11 74 Q. Was that the only purpose of the account?

12 A. Yes.

13 75 Q. Did you do your general banking elsewhere?

14 A. I did.

15 76 Q. When you got your money out in 1994 which was some

16 £70,000, do you remember what you did with it at

17 that time?

18 A. Yes, I put it in the post office.

19 77 Q. Why did you put it in the post office as distinct

20 from anything else?

21 A. I think it was as good a rate as anywhere else.

22 78 Q. What I am going to do is show you two documents.

23 Do you remember the date on which you put the money

24 into the post office?

25 A. No.

26 79 Q. I wonder is it in your statement. We will look at

27 that now and see if it is in your statement?

28 A. It says here in October 1994.

29 80 Q. I will give you page 26 -- Exhibit 3.

15
 1 Mrs. Webb, you see there that in a bank statement --

2 forget for the moment who the bank statement is --

3 it is in the name of Hamilton Ross. Do you see that

4 on the left-hand side?

5 A. Yes .

6 81 Q. You see that a sum -- not identical to it because

7 the rates of exchange would be different -- of

8 £70,167 in Sterling is transferred to An Post?

9 A. Yes .

10 82 Q. In a note immediately adjacent to it...I will read

11 it across for you:

12 "3rd October 1994. Value date

30th September 1994. IR £70,590."
13

14 Do you see that?

15 A. Yes .

16 83 Q. That is precisely the amount of Irish punts that

17 were lodged to the post office by you, £70,590.

18 In fact it was £70,167 Sterling but it was £70,590

19 Irish punts. Do you see that?

20 A. Yes .

21 84 Q. That is the money that was transferred to you?

22 A. Yes .

23 85 Q. Do you see up on the right-hand side that there is a

24 reference "A/A47." Do you see that?

25 A. Yes .

26 86 Q. The system that they used in Ansbacher wasn't a

27 system of names but a system of numbers?

28 A. Yes .

29 87 Q. That is a particular number, A/A47. Put that to one

 1 side for a second. I now want to show you an

2 earlier document -- Exhibit 4. (Same handed to

3 witness)

4 It looks the same but on this occasion the word

5 "Ansbacher" appears. Do you see that?

6 A. Yes .

7 88 Q. Ansbacher Ltd and Ansbacher Cayman. You can see

8 that the amount in there is approximately £72,000 or

9 £73,000. It is a slightly different time because of

10 course this was two years earlier. But if you look

11 to the right-hand side, in the place where I pointed

12 out A/A47 you see that appears on that as well?

13 A. Yes .

14 89 Q. We have received evidence from various bank

15 officials and others that Ansbacher's accounts were

16 changed to Hamilton Ross around that time.

17 Do understand that?

18 A. Yes .

19 90 Q. It appears clear that the money which you received

20 from this Hamilton Ross company originally was in

21 Ansbacher. Have you any comment to make about that?

22 A. No.

23 91 Q. Mrs. Webb, did you ever get interest from them?

24 A. From who?

25 92 Q. From wherever the money was on deposit?

26 A. I don't know.

27 93 Q. You just got money?

28 A. Yes .

29 94 Q. Did anyone ever say to you 'Mrs. Webb, you have this
 1 money out there and you better return it for tax

2 purposes?'

3 A. No.

4 95 Q. Nobody ever said that to you?

5 A. No.

6 96 Q. Or you were never informed about that?

7 A. No.

8 97 Q. During the time that you were getting this money

9 from Mr. Seymour from time to time, where did you

10 think the money was coming from?

11 A. I don't know.

12 98 Q. You must have thought about it. We don't all get

13 £5,000 or £10,000 from time to time from people

14 without saying when or where it came from?

15 A. I thought it must have been somebody. I really

16 didn't give it much thought. There wasn't an awful

17 lot of money. I didn't spend much money.

18 99 Q. I understand that but I am trying to find out where

19 you thought it was coming from?

20 A. I didn't think.

21 100 Q. You had no idea. I will now show you, Mrs. Webb,

22 page 64 -- Exhibit 5. Funnily enough that is

23 another letter from the same Don Reid. Do you

24 remember that I showed you an earlier letter. This

25 is a later letter from Don Reid. I will read the

26 letter for completeness. It says:

27 "Dear Mr. Crampton,

I am sorry that it has taken me rather
28 longer to come back to you with a draft
Letter of Wishes. I am now enclosing
29 six copies of this draft so that it may
be considered by each of the

18
 1 individuals concerned. I think that
the terms of the letter are fairly
2 self-explanatory and should not give
rise to any problems but, should anyone
3 wish to discuss it with me I would be
happy to do so.
4
Since I saw you we have sent to the
5 Cayman Islands the revised draft Trust
Deed together with the details required
6 to complete the appointed class in each
case.
7
For ease of reference and to avoid too
8 much identification we are calling the
Trusts the Whitethorn Trusts. Your own
9 will be Whitethorn A Trust, Mr. Clark's
the Whitethorn B Trust, Mr. East's the
10 Whitethorn C Trust, Mr. O'Connor's the
Whitethorn D Trust, Mr. Seymour's the
11 Whitethorn E Trust and Mr. Webb's the
Whitethorn F Trust.
12
As soon as the trusts are drawn up I
13 will have the Letter of Wishes signed
in each case by Paul Harris who is the
14 settlor. Two formal steps will then
remain to be taken. The first is the
15 formation by the Trustees of a company
(or companies) to receive income from
16 deposits and investments on behalf of
the Trustees. The second will be the
17 execution by Paul Harris of a Deed
(in blank) assigning his powers as
18 Appointor of the Trusts.

19 Yours sincerely, Don Reid."

20

21 That shows that the scheme was implemented?

22 A. Yes.

23 101 Q. And that your husband was the beneficiary or was the

24 man who established the Whitethorn F Trust?

25 A. Yes.

26 102 Q. The only bit of your evidence which puzzles me, and

27 you would be the surprised that the rest of it

28 doesn't puzzle me at all. The only piece of this

29 evidence that puzzle me is, of all the people in the

19
 1 whole world that you went to for advice 22 years

2 later when you wanted to get your hands on the

3 money, you happened to go to Mr. Don Reid who was

4 the man who established the trust. Isn't that

5 something?

6 A. I must have asked somebody.

7 103 Q. You didn't say that before, Mrs. Webb. You must

8 have asked somebody but who did you ask?

9 A. George Crampton I suppose.

10 104 Q. Mrs. Webb, do you understand the meaning of being

11 economical with the truth?

12 A. I do, yes.

13 105 Q. It normally refers to witnesses who while not

14 telling any lie, do not volunteer any information.

15 Do you understand?

16 A. Yes.

17 106 Q. When I asked you about Mr. Reid previously I venture

18 to suggest that you were economical with the truth.

19 You must have sought advice from somebody. Now you

20 say it was Mr. Crampton. Do you remember the

21 conversation with Mr. Crampton?

22 A. No.

23 107 Q. I have no further questions.

24

25 END OF EXAMINATION OF MRS. WEBB BY JUDGE O'LEARY

26

27

28

29

20
 1 108 Q. MS. MACKEY: I have a couple of things

2 I would like to clarify

3 with you, Mrs. Webb. Did you yourself make any

4 lodgements to this fund or add anything to it?

5 A. No.

6 109 Q. The Guinness & Mahon account, the statements that

7 you sent us begin in 1980. You told us in your own

8 statement that you learned of the existence of this

9 fund sometime in the mid 1970's. Indeed we have

10 seen from the documents that we have been showing

11 you now that it was set up in 1972. Up to 1980 how

12 did you access the money. How did you get payments

13 from the fund if you wanted it before you had your

14 Guinness & Mahon account?

15 A. I don't know. Did I get any, I don't know?

16 110 Q. Did you, I am asking you?

17 A. I don't know.

18 111 Q. Mr. Seymour told you about it in the mid 1970's?

19 A. Yes .

20 112 Q. This is what you say in your statement; I am going

21 by your statement. Is it your evidence that from

22 then until 1980 you didn't access the money at all?

23 A. I presume, yes. I have no recollection of that at

24 all.

25 113 Q. In fact is your recollection that the only way that

26 you accessed the money was through this Guinness &

27 Mahon account?

28 A. Yes .

29 114 Q. It was open especially so that the money could be

21
 1 lodged into it from time to time as you asked?

2 A. Yes .

3 115 Q. The Guinness & Mahon account, again from the

4 statements that you have shown us, closed in

5 November 198 9. How did you get payments after that

6 because we have evidence that you certainly got at

7 least £10,000 in 1992. So what did you do after the

8 Guinness & Mahon account closed. Where did the

9 payments go to for you after that?

10 A. I don't know.

11 116 Q. You don't know but you got payments, isn't that

12 correct? You were able to continue to draw money

13 from the fund after 1989. Maybe I will show you the

14 last statement?

15 A. I don't recall drawing any money except from

16 Guinness & Mahon.

17 117 Q. Perhaps there was another account opened. What you

18 have shown us here, unless I am mistaken --

19 Exhibit 6 -- you have sent us copies of your

20 resident current account up to 8th November 198 9 at

21 which time there was £1,050 and 74 pence. And then

22 we see a nil balance after that so it looks as if it

23 was closed when that was withdrawn, doesn't it?

24 A. Yes .

25 118 Q. That was 1989?

26 A. Yes .

27 119 Q. You appear to have no Guinness & Mahon account after

28 that unless another one was opened. But that is the

29 last thing you have given us. If I could refer then

22
 1 to these A/A47 statements that you were looking at

2 earlier at page 87 -- Exhibit 7

3 JUDGE 0'LEARY: That, Mrs. Webb, is an

4 earlier statement of the

5 series that I already showed you examples of.

6 120 Q. MS. MACKEY: With the name Hamilton

7 Ross. You see A/A47?

8 A. Yes .

9 121 Q. You see there that a sum of £10,000 Irish equalling

10 £9,600 Sterling was withdrawn from that account.

11 The date is very hard to read because the

12 photocopying is bad, but it is actually some date in

13 1993. You see beside it there 12th October 1993.

14 Do you see that?

15 A. Yes .

16 122 Q. So a sum of £10,000 was withdrawn and presumably it

17 can only have been withdrawn by yourself through

18 whoever you got to do it for you, Mr. Seymour or

19 Mr. Reid, I don't know. But I am wondering how that

20 was paid to you because the Guinness & Mahon account

21 was closed at that time. Do you recollect for

22 example getting money in cash at any stage from

23 Mr. Reid or Mr. Seymour?

24 A. No.

25 123 Q. Or a bank draft?

26 A. No.

27 124 Q. I am wondering where this £10,000 went to. That is

28 1993 before you withdrew the final lump sum. Does

29 that ring any bell?

 2 125 Q. Getting back to the business of Mr. Seymour and

3 Mr. Reid — Mr. Seymour died in 1993?

4 A. I don't know what year he died.

5 126 Q. He died in 1992 or 1993. It was before you withdrew

6 your lump sum. Was it after his death that you went

7 to Mr. Crampton to ask how you would now access the

8 money?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 127 Q. Can you recollect when you first spoke to Mr. Reid

11 about it roughly. I am not looking for an exact

12 date?

13 A. No.

14 128 Q. Was it towards the end or had you been in contact

15 with him about it for some years?

16 A. I don't remember.

17 129 Q. You do remember talking to Mr. Reid about it?

18 A. I do remember talking to him. That was at the time

19 (he told me) to put it in the post office.

20 130 Q. Is that the only time you spoke to him?

21 A. It is the only time I remember; I could have spoken

22 to him before.

23 131 Q. That was as a result of Mr. Crampton suggesting to

24 you that he was the best person to go to?

25 A. Yes.

26 132 Q. Mr. Seymour of course was not alive at that stage?

27 A. No.

28 133 Q. During Mr. Seymour's lifetime, every time you wanted

29 some money you contacted him?

24
 2 134 Q. Did you contact anybody in Guinness & Mahon ever

3 about it?

4 A. No.

5 135 Q. Did you ever have any contact with

6 Mr. Desmond Traynor?

7 A. No.

8 136 Q. Or Mr. Padraig Collery?

9 A. No.

10 137 Q. Or Mr. Martin Keane?

11 A. No.

12 138 Q. Nobody in Guinness & Mahon?

13 A. I have heard of them.

14 139 Q. But you haven't met any of them?

15 A. No.

16 140 Q. Did Mr. Collery himself ever contact you about your

17 funds?

18 A. Mr. Who?

19 141 Q. Padraig Collery?

20 A. No.

21 142 Q. He never made any contact with you?

22 A. No.

23 143 Q. You say in your statement, Mrs. Webb, if you could

24 have a look at it again there -- do you recall

25 making this statement. Was it you who wrote it out

26 or your solicitor, this statement that has been sent

27 into us. Mrs. Webb, was it you who wrote it out or

28 your solicitor?

29 A. I don't know who wrote it.

25
 1 144 Q. Did you give your solicitor instructions or was it

2 your daughter who gave the instructions because you

3 seem to be unfamiliar with some of the things that

4 are said in it, that is why I wonder. Did you sit

5 down with your solicitor and tell him these things

6 or did your daughter, Mrs. Webb.

7 MR. 0'GRADY: I can clarify if you wish;

8 there is no point in beating around the bush?

9 MS. MACKEY: Perhaps.

10 MR. 0'GRADY: What happened was that I

11 met Mrs. Webb's daughter.

12 A statement was drafted based on the information

13 that we had and it was sent out to Mrs. Webb.

14 MS. MACKEY: That you had from her

15 daughter?

16 MR. 0'GRADY: From her daughter and from

17 the papers that I have

18 which you have seen from the statements.

19 MS. MACKEY: Statements such as the

20 contact with Mr. Seymour

21 which Mrs. Webb seemed vague about?

22 MR. 0'GRADY: I drafted it. It was

23 sent out to Mrs. Webb's

24 daughter. As I understand it Mrs. Webb's daughter

25 discussed it with Mrs. Webb and some changes were

26 made arising from that. And then it was sent out.

27 MS. MACKEY: But in fact it was

28 Mrs. Webb's daughter who

29 came in to see you initially and talked with you

26
 1 before you drew it up, not Mrs. Webb?

2 MR. 0'GRADY: Yes, who came in to see

3 me.

4 145 Q. MS. MACKEY: If we could look at the

5 second page of that

6 statement, Mrs. Webb. Up at the top of the second

7 page in the third sentence down you say:

8 "I had been informed that the funds

from which monies were lodged to my
9 current account with the bank were set
up as part of a legitimate tax scheme."
10

11 Do you see that?

12 A. Yes .

13 146 Q. Who informed you of that, Mrs. Webb?

14 A. I must have been Don Reid again.

15 147 Q. So you only spoke to Don Reid at the end of the

16 whole thing. So you are saying that at that stage

17 he told you it was legitimate, is that right?

18 A. Yes, I suppose so.

19 148 Q. And was that as a result of you asking him was it

20 legitimate. Had you expressed some worry to him?

21 A. No.

22 149 Q. It is important that we know at what stage Mr. Reid

23 said that to you, whether he told you that in 1994

24 when you spoke to him or whether you had some

25 conversation with him in 1972 when he told you that

26 then. It is important to know whether it was at the

27 beginning or the end of the thing that he said to

28 you if it was he who said it?

29 A. I don't know.
 1 150 Q. You cannot remember whether it was at the very start

2 or the very end?

3 A. No.

4 151 Q. Do you recollect at all meeting Mr. Reid at the very

5 start at the times...(INTERJECTION)?

6 A. No, I only recollect meeting him once. That was the

7 time he advised me to put it into the post office.

8 152 Q. Did he advise you to put it into the post office?

9 A. Yes .

10 153 Q. I was actually going to ask you about that because

11 you had a bank account somewhere else I presume?

12 A. Yes .

13 154 Q. Did you at that stage have an account with the post

14 office?

15 A. No.

16 155 Q. But Mr. Reid thought it wise for you to open one and

17 put this in?

18 A. Yes .

19 156 Q. It was on his advise?

20 A. Better interest I think.

21 157 Q. Those are all the questions. I have no further

22 questions, Mrs. Webb. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE 0'LEARY: Thank you very much

24 indeed. What happens now

25 is the transcript has been taken of your evidence

26 and in due course you will be invited to sign that

27 as accurate. To read it and make sure it is

28 accurate. Then we will make a report in due course.

29 And to what extent or what we will say, we have no

28
 1 idea.

2 MS. MACKEY: Prior to that if we draw

3 any conclusions that may

4 be adverse to your interest, we will write to you

5 first before any report is published telling you

6 exactly what they are and you will be given an

7 opportunity to comment on them, to give us further

8 explanations, to give further evidence if you wish

9 to do so or all of that. In other words, to contest

10 it before any report is written if that is what you

11 want to do and if in fact any such conclusions are

12 drawn at this stage.

13 JUDGE O'LEARY: We have an open mind.

14 We don't know what we are

15 going to do.

16 MR. 0'GRADY: Can we take copies of

17 those documents?

18 JUDGE O'LEARY: There is no difficulty.

19 MS. MACKEY: You can have those.

20 Those are copies. You may

21 keep those and they will also be appended to the

22 transcript in due course.

23

24 END OF INTERVIEW WITH MRS. VALERIE WEBB

25

26

27

28

29

29
OJsVllts
5L\j O\
Appendix XV (133) (l)(b)
 IN THE MATTER OF THE COMPANIES ACT, 1963 -1999
AND IN THE MATTER PART n OF THE COMPANIES ACT, 1990
AND SECTIONS 8 AND 17
AND IN THE MATTER OF ANSBACHER (CAYMAN) LjfMITED
(FORMERLY GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED, ANSBACHER LIMITED
AND CAYMAN INTERNATIONAL BANK AND TRUST COMPANY LIMITED)

STATEMENT OF VALERIE WEBB

A. By letter dated 30 January 2001 (the "Inspectors' Letter") addressed to me and signed by His
Honour Judge Sean O'Leary, Noreen Mackey BL, Mr Paul Rowan and Michael Cush SC (the
"Inspectors") appointed by the High Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited (the "Company") I
have been requested to provide an unsworn statement in relation to the matters set out in
appendix C ("Appendix C") to the Inspectors' Letter.

B. I have never, to the best of my knowledge, had any dealings with the Company.

C. Because I have not, to the best of my knowledge, had any dealings with the Company, I do not
have any books or documents in my custody or power relating to the Company.

D. I have in the past had dealings with Guinness & Mahon Limited (the "Bank").

E. My late husband Ivan Webb was employed by the Crampton Builders Group ("Cramptons").
He died in 1972. In the mid-1970's I was made aware by Sidney Seymour, a director of
Cramptons, of the existence of a fund invested by Cramptons for my benefit. I was informed
that the source of the funds was the proceeds of sale of a site by Cramptons. I was informed
also that if I needed access to any of the funds I was to contact Mr Seymour. I contacted Mr
Seymour on a number of occasions between 1980 and 1994 and Mr Seymour arranged for
monies to be lodged to the current account set up for me at the Bank. To the best of my
recollection, I never attended at the Bank in person. I received cheque books from time to
time by post. I do not have any of the cheques or cheque stubs in my possession. I wrote to
the Bank and received copies of all statements in August 2000. Although I am not aware that
there was any connection between my bank account, or the source of the funds put into same,
and the Company, I enclose copies of all of the bank statements in question. I received a
 cheque in October 1994 for the sum of £70,590, which I assumed represented the balance of
the investment and which monies were lodged with An Post. I attach also a statement of
account reflecting the said cheque payment, which I received from the Revenue
i

Commissioners recently. I had been informed that the fund from which monies were lodged
to my current account with the Bank was set up as part of a legitimate tax scheme, and on that
basis I was not aware that I would have any outstanding tax liability to the Revenue
Commissioners.
F. Upon my receipt of the bank statements I wrote to the Bank and enquired, as indeed did
, on my behalf, in relation to two lodgements, one described as being
from "whitet trust" and the other as account number "06249000". The response received was
that the lodgements looked as though they related to monies lodged to the account on maturity
of a certificate of deposit. The Bank indicated that it should be possible to see the monies
going out of the current account into the certificate of deposit some months previously. I have
no recollection of purchasing a certificate of deposit and the bank statements would not appear
to bear out what the Bank indicated. I do not recall anything about any such certificate of
deposit.

Signed :

VALERIE WEBB

Dated day of ^ P , 2001

\MOP_DUBLIN\325704.1
Appendix XV (133) (l)(c)
 »

Kennedy Crowley & Co. Chartered Accountants

Hainault House 69/71 S t Stephen's Green Dublin 2 Telephone 757971

John Horun Lq., Ref.

V. Sonan & Sons, MWA
94/95 Son eh Kali,
Cork
" n*te: 13 August 1971
I

re: Cayman islands Xrust

Dear John,
'In the course of discussions which I had on Friday with Messrs.
X was askedtowrits to you
asking you to advise then and Kessra.
and I. Webb regarding tha establishment of discretionary trusts
tn the Cayaan Islands. I had already sent yon for general Information
a draft of a trust deed which is uaed In tha Caynuro Islands and the
above named would Ilka you to advise them as a group on tha suitability
of such a trust deed for their purposes but at a later stage -reference
will of cows? be necessary Lo tha individual requirements of aach.
In tha first instance they would wish to have written advice and
at a later stags they would Ilka to discuss this written advice with yon
on soma suitable occasion whan you are In town.
Aa you know from your other connections these trusts will be tha
recipients ultimately of certain tax free profits In the Cayman Islands
and tha anxiety la that the arrangements should be as flexible as
possible, consistent with the continuing tax free status of the trust
and of appointments made by the trustees to the beneficlarlea of
the trust.
I have already given you some comment on the general features of
the trust deed and If you feel a further discussion would be helpful
please let SM know.
I am sending a copy of this letter to

Tours sincerely,

D. Raid
Martin CumyVCA lidjSar KonJor KCA Cuiwultnm tVinripiit Mwm^ixt
Dtclnii CnlliiH AC A Kihvactl luvjaiii KCA
Conor Cruwliy KCA lliiui O'CniHiiir ACA (i-mlil Wlwi'tiT KCA Nimium Dsfa
l-iurcmv I'rowk-r KCA lJuvhl »/««• KCA IVliT l^wli
N'i.iB Ouwkr KCA AU-x Spain KCA Don IWkl
Appendix XV (133) (l)(d)
 Kennedy Crowley & Co. Chartered Accountants

Hainault House 69/71 St. Stephen's Green Dublin S Telephone 757971

IW: DR/GC
9, Maple Boad,
Dublin 14. |)utc . 8th Kirch, 1972

Kt: C m m Trasfcs.

Dear Mr crampton,
I am aorry that It has taken aa rather longer to com* back to you with
the draft Letter of Wlshas. Z an now enclosing six coplas of this
draft so that It may ba considered by sseh of tha Individuals concerned.
I think that tha terms of tha lattar ara fairly salf-asplanatoxy and
should not give rise to any problems but, should anyone wish to discuss
them with me I would be happy to do so.
Sine* I saw you ws have sent to tha Cayman Islands tha revised draft
Trust Dead, togathar with the detail* required to complete the appointed
class In each case.
WOK aasa of reference, and to avoid too much Identification, we ara calling
tha Trust a tha Whitethorn Trusts. Tour own will ba tha Whitethorn A Trust,
tha Whitethorn B Trust, tha Whitethorn C Trust,
tha Whitethorn D Trust, tha Whitethorn X Trust, and
Mr Webb's tha Whitethorn J. Trust.
As soon as tha Trusts are drawn up X will have ths Lattar of Wishes signed
In each case by *fco la. the settlor. Two formal steps will than
remain to ba taken. Tha first is tha formstlon by tha Trustees of a company
Cor companies) to receive income from deposits or investment a on behalf of tha
Trustees. Tha second will ba tha execution by of a Dead (in
blank) assigning his powers as Appointor of tha Trusts.
Tio
rt rs
oirs sincerely,
a
k
Ends.
Mjil'.'ittVYlV.* Ktkrv.r Kwwr H'.\ ('nuiiliuin |V,tri|i:il MjliajnTH
P' rial 11 ijSilUS \0 K.hir.r.l l>.'n;ni K"'.l
OilcrlVn t>c !'V \ iVr.ut OViMiH;r AC. • winld Wlnvfir K'.\ V m in^il I kilt*
I'.-i.-r l.nivii
I .Hrlvii'-r !rtvvk-vH' \ Ih;i.| li.nw t'<'*
NJ..IUWU [•'.•' \ All \ S«»» !'( '.•« I'u. I'.Ail

¥
Kennedy Crawley & Co. continuation sheet /

P. 8. I should mention that In «ach ease tha settlor would be

a Cayman Islands resident and the appointor would be
the appropriate Individual named above.
Appendix XV (133) (l)(e)
 ;... • .. i .. ^ .
... / I'
' • iv?' -f^iif ; •> \: • •'• ,•
A © ©
Appendix XV (133) (1) (f)
 ENXOF,ACCOUNT

(HAMI
HAMILTON HOSS n
A/AA7

L_ ACCOUNT NUMBER 80001635 PAGE

BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: sterlint

10

30/09/94 BROUGHT FORWARD 70167.89

03/10/94 30/09/94 1R7U590 AN POST 7U167.B9

Ul/10/94 0.00
CARRIED FORWARD
Appendix XV (133) (1) (g)
 )

t sftftMEB IWa ANSBACHER LIMITED

P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British West Indies
Telephone No. 9—4653/4
(u.-thachsr Limited Telex CP 305 Cable Address Guinness
Jaymnn
A/A WT
L J ACCOUNT NUMBER 80001635
BALANCES 8HOWN ARE IN:
PAGE
sterling
22

"1/1 l/'V2 BROUGHT FORWARD 72013.10

1337.68
n/VA/'n ."3J./12/92 Interest to 31/12/92

0
d

'i /1 x.rn 73350.70

CARRIED FORWARD /
Appendix XV (133) (1) (h)
 4861000 MRS V WEBB
72 HHITEBEAM RD
CLONSKEAGH
DUBLIN 14

RESIDENT CURRENT

IRISH POUNDS Balance brought forward

08 NOV 89 CHEQUE NUMBER 171082

30JAN90
MRS V WEBB

*** Copy Statement ***

1,050.74
1,050.74 0.00
Appendix XV (133) (l)(i)
| HgS M E M E N T OF A C C O U N T

r
HAMILTON KOSS
L

BROUGHT FORWARD
\n/n'i/".'.t
i :>/) 1 i b i o o o o

V CARRIED FORWARD
 )

ANSBACHER LIMITED
P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British West Indies
Telephone No. 9—4653/4
Telex CP 305 Cable Address Guinness

A/A47 '
ACCOUNT NUMBER PAGE
BALANCES SHOWN ARBOOK31635 5

76459.84
9600.00

66859.84
/
Appendix XV (134) Ms Joan Williams
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Ms
Joan Williams.

a) Transcript of evidence of Ms Joan Williams dated 26 September 2000.

b) Statement of Ms Joan Williams dated 21 September 2000.

c) Ansbacher Limited statement of 30 October 1992 re a/c A/A7.

d) Ansbacher Limited statement of 30 November 1992 re a/c A/A7.

e) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 14 February 1984 - Padraig

Collery to JD Traynor.

f) Extract of summary of memorandum a/c ledger balances in Hamilton Ross

Co Ltd.

g) Statement of a/c of Hamilton Ross of 31 December 1994 re a/c A/A7.

h) Statement of a/c of Hamilton Ross of 29 February 1996 re a/c A/A7.

i) Statement of a/c of Hamilton Ross of 31 March 1996 re a/c A/A7.

j) Statement of a/c of Hamilton Ross of 31 July 1996 re a/c A/A7.

k) Ansbacher Limited statement of 31 March 1993 re a/c A/A7.

1) Statement of a/c of Hamilton Ross of 31 January 1993 re a/c A/A7.

m) Statement of a/c of Hamilton Ross of 30 April 1993 re a/c A/A7.

n) Ansbacher Limited statement of 31 December 1992 re a/c A/A7.

o) Statement of a/c of Hamilton Ross of 30 November 1993 re a/c A/A7.

p) Statement of a/c of Hamilton Ross of 31 May 1993 re a/c A/A7.

q) Statement of a/c of Hamilton Ross of 31 October 1993 re a/c A/A7.

r) Statement of a/c of Hamilton Ross of 30 September 1994 re a/c A/A7.

s) Statement of a/c of Hamilton Ross of 30 April 1995 re a/c A/A7.

Appendix XV (134) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MS. JOAN WILLIAMS

UNDER OATH

ON 26TH SEPTEMBER 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer
The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

MS. MACKEY BL

Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: MS. J. WILLIAMS

Represented by: MR. E. MARRAY BL

Instructed by: CROWLEY MILLAR,

SOLICITORS

15 LOWER MOUNT STREET

DUBLIN 2
 1 THE INTERVIEW COMMENCED AS FOLLOWS ON 2 6TH SEPTEMBER

2 2000

4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Will we start our

5 interview then,

6 Ms. Williams? I have already introduced ourselves

7 at our last meeting so we need not do so again.

8 Just to explain, as I did the last time, that this

9 is not a court or it is not a tribunal, it is an

10 interview. You are at liberty to ask us to stop any

11 time you wish to do so and to discuss the matter

12 with your legal advisors and similarly your legal

13 advisors can ask us to stop at any time if they wish

14 to consult with you.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

16 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Very well. I should also

17 add, Ms. Williams, that

18 this of course is now about your own relationship

19 with Ansbacher. We have already discussed other

20 matters with you at our last interview. I am going

21 to ask Ms. Mackey to ask you some questions. I

22 think we should swear you first.

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

3
 1 MS. JOAN WILLIAMS, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED

2 AS FOLLOWS BY MS. MACKEY:

4 MS. MACKEY: Good morning,

5 Ms. Williams. I

6 would like to turn to your statement first of all,

7 (EXHIBIT 1) which we got a couple of days ago. Do

8 you have a copy of it there?

9 MS. WILLIAMS: I do, yes.

10 1 Q. Now, I think on the last occasion that we were

11 talking to you, you outlined your career to us. I

12 don't think we need go back into that again except

13 to say that you were a secretary to the late

14 Mr. Traynor, both during his time at Guinness and

15 Mahon and during his time at CRH, is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 2 Q. Now, if we could turn straight away to your

18 statement (EXHIBIT 1) and to the end of the third

19 paragraph there, you say that when Mr. Traynor left

20 Guinness and Mahon and became chairman of CRH you

21 left the bank also and Mr. Traynor offered you

22 employment in CRH. You were his secretary both

23 while with the bank and with CRH and your salary was

24 paid by the bank or CRH as appropriate.

25 Now you then say that:

26 "In the late 1970's or early 1980's on

a date I cannot recall Mr. Furze
27 advised me that he had opened an
account with Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited
28 and he made a lodgement to that account
for me."
29

4
 1 Now, I would like you to recollect as best you can

2 and describe to us that conversation or the occasion

3 on which this was said to you, what was said to you

4 by Mr. Furze and how the matter arose. Did this

5 happen when he was on a visit here to Dublin?

6 A. Yes, to the best of my knowledge or memory, it was

7 on one occasion when he had been over here in Dublin

8 working and he was staying at, what is now, Jury's

9 Hotel. I don't know when it changed from

10 Intercontinental to Jury's but Mr. Traynor and

11 Mr. Furze and myself had been working a bit late in

12 the office and Mr. Traynor obviously had some sort

13 of appointment and he asked me if I would give

14 Mr. Furze a lift back to his hotel. When I went up

15 to get my car from the laneway where it was parked.

16 3 Q. Was this in CRH or in Guinness and Mahon?

17 A. Sorry?

18 4 Q. Was this in CRH or in Guinness and Mahon?

19 A. Oh, in Guinness and Mahon and my car was parked in a

20 laneway, fairly near the office and when I get there

21 my car had been broken into so we had to clear out

22 the glass and everything before I could give

23 Mr. Furze a lift back.

24 5 Q. Yes .

25 A. I think really he just sort of felt a bit sorry for

26 me and sort of felt I might -- Instead of giving me

27 a gift, which was what he usually did when he was

28 leaving, he said he was going to open an account for

29 me and put money into it.

 1 6 Q. So, he said on that occasion that he was going to?

2 A. Yes .

3 7 Q. He hadn't done it already?

4 A. No. I think he just probably just thought of it at

5 that stage.

6 8 Q. Did he ask you whether you would like him to do

7 this?

8 A. Well, he sort of said that instead of giving me a

9 gift he thought I might like to try and save for a

10 car or something like that.

11 9 Q. Yes, and what did he explain to you about this

12 account? Did he tell you it would be in Cayman?

13 You knew about the Cayman accounts?

14 A. Well, that was my understanding. I can't remember

15 the details of what he actually said.

16 10 Q. Did he tell you, for example, the rate of interest

17 it would earn?

18 A. No.

19 11 Q. Did he tell you how you could access it if you

20 needed to access it?

21 A. Not specifically, no. I presumed I would speak to

22 him or Mr. Traynor or ask him in some

23 way...(INTERJECTION).

24 12 Q. If you wished to access it?

25 A. If I wished to, yes.

26 13 Q. So he told you he would do that, when was the next

27 you heard anything about that?

28 A. I think probably the next occasion might have been

29 -- This is only from my recollection.

 1 14 Q. Yes .

2 A. It could been the following Christmas, when he said

3 that he had arranged to put some money in my account

4 by way of a Christmas gift. It would have been just

5 a fax or something, came through.

6 15 Q. He would have sent you a fax?

7 A. Probably.

8 16 Q. Did you keep copies of any of these faxes.

9 A. Oh, no I didn't.

10 17 Q. You didn't. Between the time that he told you he

11 would open the account and the Christmas when he

12 told you he was putting money in as a Christmas

13 gift, did he inform you that he had in fact opened

14 it?

15 A. I really can't recall a specific communication

16 saying that he had opened it but obviously he had

17 when Christmas came and he said he was putting some

18 money into it.

19 18 Q. Was that the first lodgement that was made to it or

20 had there been a lodgement already?

21 A. Well I presume he would have lodged something when

22 he opened the account and then added more at

23 Christmas.

24 19 Q. Did he tell you how much he put in?

25 A. Not specifically, I don't remember it anyway. I

26 don't remember.

27 20 Q. You say that you never received statements of the

28 balance as other clients did and you were in the

29 habit of sending out these statements you knew what

 1 these statements were but you yourself did not

2 receive any statements concerning the account you

3 say at the top of the next page?

4 A. Not on a regular basis, no, as I said in my

5 statement I possibly did see the balance from time

6 to time but I wouldn't have received statements on a

7 regular basis at all.

8 21 Q. This is what I wanted to ask you about, when you say

9 to me you have seen it, how would that have arisen,

10 where would you have seen it?

11 A. If Mr. Traynor was giving me the statement, as I

12 think I explained the last time, that he would tear

13 the top off and just say send that to Joe Smith or

14 whoever and he might have said "I see your balance

15 is doing alright" or something to that effect.

16 22 Q. He might have said to you the

17 balance...(INTERJECTION)?

18 A. He might have, yes, or he might have shown me a

19 piece of paper with it on it, you know.

20 23 Q. Would this be an individual piece of paper just with

21 your balance on it?

22 A. Yes, probably.

23 24 Q. And he would give you that then, is that it?

24 A. Yes .

25 25 Q. So, you did receive statements?

26 A. Occasionally, yes, occasionally I might have seen a

27 piece of paper.

28 26 Q. Would this happen every time that you were sending

29 out statements?

8
 2 was not a very regular occurrence, it was not as if

3 it happened monthly, three monthly, it was sort of a

4 bit random really.

5 27 Q. Yes. Now you talk also in your statement (EXHIBIT

6 1) ,
7 Ms. Williams, about lodgements or rather you say

8 that you don't know how much had been lodged, when

9 it was lodged and where it was lodged and you told

10 me there a moment ago that Mr. Furze put in a

11 Christmas present for you at Christmas.

12

13 I would like you to look at some of the statements

14 that we have here. If we could begin on page 37.

15 If we could take just a representative selection

16 from 1992 to the end of 1993, which brings us to

17 page -- you see there, if you look at the first one,

18 Ms. Williams, page number 37 at the bottom of the

19 page, do you see that (EXHIBIT 2)?

20 A. Yes.

21 28 Q. Do you see there, there is lodgement of the sum of

22 £250 on the 30th of October 1992.

23 A. Yes.

24 29 Q. If we turn over the page we find the same sum lodged

25 again on 30th of November and so on, every month

26 right through, we have Stg£250. Can you tell us

27 anything about that (EXHIBIT 3)?

28 A. Well, other than that the amounts were lodged.

29 30 Q. Well, do you know what they were or why £250 was

9
 1 lodged every month?

2 A. Obviously all I can say is that Mr. Furze had

3 decided to do it on a regular basis.

4 31 Q. Yes. Had he told you about this?

5 A. No, I don't recall him telling me specifically.

6 32 Q. Do you recall anything about lodging a regular sum?

7 A. I think he may have said that he was going to make

8 payments regularly.

9 33 Q. Did he?

10 A. I think he did.

11 34 Q. When would that have first arisen?

12 A. I am really not sure but I would say it was possibly

13 around 1992. I am only speculating, I don't quite

14 honestly remember.

15 35 Q. Thank you. Would there be any reason why he would

16 have begun to make regular payments at that time?

17 A. I don't know what his reasons would have been unless

18 he felt that as -- I don't know maybe he thought I

19 was doing...(INTERJECTION).

20 36 Q. That you were doing?

21 A. Well, that I was perhaps -- you know, that he used

22 to ring me up and that sort of thing, insofar as the

23 connection with Guinness and Mahon at that stage was

24 gone and we wouldn't have had people there that he

25 would have spoken to.

26 37 Q. Perhaps it would help you if I said that Mr. Collery

27 informed us that he was getting a regular fee of

28 £1,000 from Ansbacher (Cayman) and that at the time

29 he left Guinness and Mahon to go to Kindle, it was

10
 1 understood that he wouldn't be able to devote as

2 much time to the matter and that therefore you would

3 be doing more work and the fee would be split, that

4 is, between you and him, £250 to you and £750 to

5 him. Does that assist your recollection?

6 A. Well, it was never put to me that it was a fee for

7 anything.

8 38 Q. Was it not?

9 A. No, definitely not.

10 39 Q. Was the figure of £250 put to you at all?

11 A. I really can't recall.

12 40 Q. Was it the case that you were called upon to do more

13 work for Ansbacher at the time Mr. Collery left

14 Guinness and Mahon?

15 A. I possibly was. I didn't notice a sudden increase

16 or anything like that but I mean I suppose there

17 were more -- there was certainly more letters and

18 that sort of thing because when we were dealing with

19 Irish Intercontinental Bank everything was done by

20 way of letter, whereas previously Mr. Traynor

21 probably would have phoned Mr. Collery and asked him

22 to do things through Guinness and Mahon or whatever

23 whereas when he wasn't available to do that

24 obviously everything had to be done by letter to

25 Irish Intercontinental Bank, so I am sure that the

26 volume would have increased, yes.

27 41 Q. Were you asked specifically to do extra work at the

28 time when Mr. Collery left?

29 A. No, I wasn't asked specifically, I mean I just

 1 worked for Mr. Traynor and I did whatever he asked

2 me to do. If he asked me to type a letter about New

3 Ireland or Aer Lingus equally I would have done it.

4 42 Q. I see. Could we perhaps then move onto page 85

5 (EXHIBIT 4), Mary, perhaps that is among those you

6 have already given us. Now this is a memo from

7 Mr. Collery to Mr. Traynor on the 14th of February

8 1984, and in it he says "I have debited GMCT "S" and

9 credited GMCT A/A7", will you just confirm that A/A7

10 is in fact your account?

11 A. So I was told.

12 43 Q. I have "GMCT A/A7 with sterling £218.04 reference

13 IR£276. If we could also ask you in connection with

14 that to have a look at page 87 (EXHIBIT 5) please,

15 which is a list of the memorandum account balances

16 in Hamilton Ross, provided to us by Mr. Collery, if

17 you go down towards the bottom there you will see it

18 is 9 up from the bottom,

19 S/Ansbacher, Des Traynor, do you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 44 Q. Indicating that the S account in Ansbacher was an

22 account belonging to Mr. Traynor. So it would

23 appear going back to the memorandum that

24 Mr. Traynor's account in Guinness and Mahon was

25 debited with this sum and that yours was credited,

26 can you tell us anything about that?

27 A. No, I have no idea. I am sorry, I really have no

28 idea.

29 45 Q. I see. Now you also talk in your statement (EXHIBIT

12
 1 1) about withdrawals that you have made, Ms.

2 Williams, you explain that you made withdrawals

3 amounting to about £10,000?

4 A. Some for the car, to the best of my recollection.

5 46 Q. Now the sum for the car appears to be clearly

6 indicated, the other sum appears to be broken down

7 into three figures and I would just like you to

8 confirm these. So, if you would look at page 63

9 (EXHIBIT 6) on your pile of statements there. You

10 see this is a statement for 1994 and you see there

11 on 30th of December 1994, a sum of Stg£100 is drawn.

12 Can you confirm that that is a withdrawal which you

13 made at that time?

14 A. Yes.

15 47 Q. You can confirm that? If we would look then at page

16 71, you have that (EXHIBIT 7)?

17 A. I have yes.

18 48 Q. We see there on 8th of February 1996, a sum of

19 Stg£487.49 is drawn, can you confirm that that is a

20 withdrawal that you made?

21 A. I don't recall what it was but I would imagine that

22 it was...(INTERJECTION).

23 49 Q. To help you, you say in your statement (EXHIBIT 1)

24 that you withdrew a sum £1,000 for family reasons.

25 A. Yes.

26 50 Q. The three figures that I am going to mention total

27 to about that amount, so, could it be that you

28 withdrew the sum in three separate amounts?

29 A. Oh, it could have been, yes. I didn't actually send

13
 1 my sister £1,000 directly.

2 51 Q. Yes, this was for your sister?

3 A. Yes .

4 52 Q. Could we turn to page, this is the third sum then,

5 to page 73 (EXHIBIT 8).

6 A. Yes .

7 53 Q. And we see there a sum Stg£4 65.75 withdrawn of the

8 8th of March 1996?

9 A. I do yes.

10 54 Q. Do you recollect that sum or can you confirm that

11 you withdrew that sum?

12 A. Well, I obviously did, yes.

13 55 Q. The financial assistance you were giving your sister

14 would this have fallen into this period 94/96?

15 A. Yes, it probably did, yes.

16 56 Q. Can you confirm that this was for your sister or

17 would these withdrawals have been for yourself

18 personally, Ms. Williams?

19 A. I think they were for my sister because I think I

20 had given her money when she was over.

21 57 Q. Did you make any withdrawals for yourself apart from

22 the withdrawal for the car?

23 A. I don't really -- I wouldn't like to say

24 specifically that I didn't because it goes back over

25 quite a long period of time. I wouldn't like to say

26 just definitely that I didn't. I tended to just

27 leave it, the money there, I sort of knew it was

28 there in the background but I didn't really look on

29 it as mine.
 1 58 Q. The withdrawals that you told us about are

2 withdrawals after Mr. Traynor's death and you went

3 to Mr. Collery himself for these withdrawals?

4 A. Yes .

5 59 Q. Did you make withdrawals during the period from the

6 late 1970's , up to the time of the late

7 Mr. Traynor's death in 1994?

8 A. I have no specific recollection of doing it but I

9 could well have done, perhaps for maybe £100 or

10 something like that.

11 60 Q. You could have done that?

12 A. I could have done but I...(INTERJECTION).

13 61 Q. Do you recollect asking Mr. Traynor on any occasion?

14 A. I don't remember specifically.

15 62 Q. Can we finally come on to look at the final

16 withdrawal that you mentioned and this is on page 80

17 (EXHIBIT 9) and there on the 24th of June 1996 we

18 have a transaction, a debit of Stg£9,152 marked

19 Grace and Harvey?

20 A. Sorry, I haven't found it, what page.

21 63 Q. Page 80?

22 A. Yes .

23 64 Q. Can you confirm that that was a withdrawal that you

24 made?

25 A. Yes, that was for the car.

26 65 Q. That was for the car. Now I would like you to look

27 at something else, Ms. Williams, again staying with

28 the statements, if you turn first to page 37, have

29 you got that there (EXHIBIT 2)?

 2 66 Q. Now, if we look at the heading on this statement we

3 see that up at the top right-hand corner it's

4 Ansbacher Limited and gives the address in Cayman?

5 A. Yes.

6 67 Q. And then, where one has the name normally of the

7 account holder over on the left in a little square

8 box, we have the name of the account holder, which

9 is Ansbacher Limited Cayman, and then we have, over

10 the right-hand corner under the address, the code

11 "A/A7", which you confirm you have been told is you

12 code, isn't that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 68 Q. And then we have the transactions set out. Oh, yes,

15 I should say we have the page sequence there, page

16 42 (EXHIBIT 10), under the code "A/A7", do you see

17 that?

18 A. I do, yes.

19 69 Q. Now we move on and if we turn to the next page

20 (EXHIBIT 11) we see that follows on in sequence,

21 page 43 (EXHIBIT 12) and so on and that goes on up

22 to page 40, do you see that (EXHIBIT 11)?

23 A. Yes.

24 70 Q. Where there is a slight change, while we still have

25 name of the bank up in the top right-hand corner as

26 being Ansbacher Limited with and address in Cayman,

27 the name of the account holder has changed to

28 Hamilton Ross, do you see that?

29 A. I do yes.

16
 1 71 Q. However, it is quite clear from this, I think you

2 will agree, that Hamilton Ross is simply an account

3 holder within the bank of Ansbacher Limited because

4 the heading is Ansbacher Limited, isn't that

5 correct?

6 A. Presumably, yes.

7 72 Q. Your account "A/A7" is carried over into this, from

8 the previous balance on the previous page (EXHIBIT

9 3), which was Stg32,477 with interest of Stg£598

10 added, giving us Stg33,325.88 it comes in then into

11 this new account holder within Ansbacher, isn't that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 73 Q. That starts page one of that sequence, of this new

15 account holder and so we turn to the next page and

16 we see it is page two, Hamilton Ross within

17 Ansbacher and so on, until we come to page 43 there,

18 page 43 at the bottom of the page. I am sorry, we

19 move on even further, we move on to page 50 (EXHIBIT

20 14), at the bottom of the page and we see that

21 suddenly the name of Ansbacher Limited had

22 disappeared. Do you see that, from the top

23 right-hand corner?

24 A. Yes.

25 74 Q. The account holder is still Hamilton Ross, the code

26 is still "A/A7", the page sequence, page 11, do you

27 see that?

28 A. Yes.

29 75 Q. Is carried over from the previous page, which was

17
 1 page 10 but which still had Ansbacher Limited on the

2 top and the balance is carried on without a break,

3 isn't that correct (EXHIBIT 14)?

4 A. It seems to be, yes.

5 76 Q. It seem to be. So, it would appear that this is the

6 same account, continuing on, isn't that correct?

7 A. It would appear so.

8 77 Q. It would appear so, although the name Ansbacher has

9 disappeared off it (EXHIBIT 14).

10 A. Yes .

11 78 Q. So that in fact the Hamilton Ross account that

12 continues on is the identical account that had the

13 name of Ansbacher on it up to that, even to the

14 sequence pagination of the pages, isn't that

15 correct?

16 A. It looks like that, yes, indeed.

17 79 Q. Thank you Ms. Williams. I don't think I have any

18 further questions to ask you. I just wanted to ask

19 you about a couple of other lodgements,

20 Ms. Williams, if you turn first to page 44 of the

21 statements (EXHIBIT 15). Do you have that? You see

22 there on the 3rd of May 1993, there is a lodgement

23 of Stg£5,000, can you tell us anything about that?

24 A. No, I have no recollection of that at all.

25 80 Q. You have no recollection?

26 A. No.

27 81 Q. Nobody told you about that or why that might be

28 lodged. It is not Christmas, so it is not a

29 Christmas gift. Have you any recollection of it?

18
 1 A. I have no recollection of it, no.

2 82 Q. Can we turn to page then to page 49 (EXHIBIT 16) and

3 there the date is very very unclear but it is

4 October 1993, I think. Yes it is, the 9th of

5 October 1993. We have a lodgement of Stg£2,000, do

6 you see that?

7 A. I do, yes.

8 83 Q. Can you tell us anything about that, in October of

9 that year?

10 A. No, I have no specific recollection.

11 84 Q. Can we turn again now to page 60 (EXHIBIT 17)? Have

12 you got that and there? There on 29th of September

13 1994, we have a lodgement of Stg£3,000, can you tell

14 us anything about that?

15 A. No, I am sorry I really don't recall the specifics

16 at all.

17 85 Q. Then if we turn to page 67, (EXHIBIT 17) the

18 following year, on 25th of April 1995, we have a

19 lodgement of Stg£25,000, do you recollect anything

20 about that?

21 A. That to the best of my knowledge now, is after

22 Mr. Traynor's death and when I ceased to have any

23 connection with work for Ansbacher or the Caymans, I

24 was told that, sort of by way of gratuity, there was

25 an amount being lodged.

26 86 Q. And who told you this?

27 A. I am not sure if it was Mr. Collery or Mr. Furze

28 himself, I think it was Mr. Furze probably because

29 it was indicated that I wouldn't be -- you know,

19
 1 thank you very much but other arrangements have been

2 made and this was just a sort of farewell gratuity.

3 87 Q. So, on that occasion they explained to you that a

4 lodgement had been made and told you what it was.

5 On the other occasions, when there was fairly large

6 lodgements made, you have no recollection of them

7 telling you anything?

8 A. I have no recollection at this stage of being

9 specifically told.

10 88 Q. Without being specific do you have any recollection

11 at all?

12 A. No, I don't really, no, I don't know. Why on that

13 date, I really don't know.

14 89 Q. Leaving aside dates have you any recollection of

15 being told from time to time or occasionally that a

16 fairly large sum of money had been lodged to your

17 account?

18 A. From time to time Mr. Furze used to say that money

19 had been lodged.

20 90 Q. Yes.

21 A. He would sort of -- as I say at Christmas he usually

22 lodged something or if he had been over on a visit

23 he often would have...(INTERJECTION).

24 91 Q. The funny thing is that nothing appears at

25 Christmas?

26 A. No, as I say, it was for Christmas but he may have

27 taken a few months to do it or something, it didn't

28 arrive with a Christmas card type of thing.

29 92 Q. I understand. Just to be clear, he would from time

20
 1 to time and he would tell you that from time to time

2 that he was putting in what we now describe as a

3 lump sum, as a gift or?

4 A. A gift, yes.

5 93 Q. What did he tell you then about the £250, going back

6 to that, which appears every month?

7 A. I think he may have mentioned that he was going to

8 put some money in on a regular basis.

9 94 Q. Yes.

10 A. Rather than just a random sort of thing.

11 95 Q. Well, the random amounts occur at the same time as

12 the £250 because we have the £250 going in every

13 month from 1992 to the end and from time to time

14 every few months we have £3,000 or £2,000 or £5,000,

15 as well. If we look at any of the pages that I have

16 pointed out already, take for example page 60

17 (EXHIBIT 18), where the £3,000 lodged in 1994, you

18 see directly under it the £250 for that month. So,

19 it doesn't pre-empt that or take its place or

20 anything. Can you give us any...(INTERJECTION)?

21 A. No, I really can't, no.

22 96 Q. I see. Thank you Ms. Williams. These statements

23 show interest accruing on your account Ms. Williams?

24 A. Yes.

25 97 Q. Can I ask you whether you declared that to the

26 Revenue Commissioners?

27 A. No. I never looked it this money as specifically

28 mine.

29 98 Q. Yes.

21
 1 A. Maybe that sounds stupid or silly but I looked on it

2 as just something that was there.

3 99 Q. Yes .

4 A. In the background, if you like, if I needed it and

5 my understanding, rightly or wrongly, was that it

6 was only if I went to bring the money to Ireland

7 that then I would obviously have to talk to the

8 Revenue Commissioners.

9 100 Q. Well you did bring some of it to Ireland as you have

10 just told us?

11 A. Well, yes but I didn't think that such relatively

12 small amounts were...(INTERJECTION).

13 101 Q. So in actual fact tax was not paid on the interest

14 or on any of the withdrawals?

15 A. It wasn't paid on any of the money that I brought to

16 Ireland to use, no, I didn't -- I considered it a

17 gift from...(INTERJECTION).

18 102 Q. I see and what is the present state of this account?

19 A. I have no idea because I have no...(INTERJECTION).

20 103 Q. It is there?

21 A. I don't know, I don't know.

22 104 Q. You don't know anything about it?

23 A. I don't know anything about it.

24 105 Q. You haven't closed it down?

25 A. No, I wouldn't even know who to contact to find out

26 anything about it.

27 106 Q. Mr. Collery wouldn't suggest himself as a

28 possible...(INTERJECTION)?

29 A. Well, I don't know he might, yes. I am not in touch

22
 1 with Mr. Collery.

2 107 Q. You haven't asked him what you could do about your

3 account?

4 A. No, I haven't, no.

5 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just one matter,

6 Ms. Williams about the

7 sums that were paid to you in 1993, there was a sum

8 of £5,000 as Ms. Mackey has pointed out, I just

9 wonder whether you knew that Mr. Collery got the

10 same amount at that time, did you know that?

11 MS. WILLIAMS: No, I had no idea.

12 108 Q. Similarly in October when you got £2,000 did you

13 know that Mr. Collery got the same amount, you

14 didn't know that?

15 A. No I didn't.

16 109 Q. Similarly with this large sum of £25,000 in 1995,

17 did you know that Mr. Collery got a large sum at the

18 same time?

19 A. No.

20 110 Q. You didn't, very well. Thank you Ms. Williams.

21 That is all we need to ask you today and we would

22 ask you to come back to sign the transcript when it

23 is prepared, whenever we get it.

24 THE INTERVIEW WAS THEN CONCLUDED

25

26

27

28

29

23
Appendix XV (134) (1) (b)
 STATEMENT OF JOAN WILLIAMS
A5 requested on the 25 th May 2000 by the Inspectors appointed by Order of the High
Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) limited

I refer to the letter of the 25* May 2000 addressedtome by the Ofeceofthelnspecton
appointed by Order of the H^h Court to Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited.
*

I wish to state at the outset that in my capacity as secretarytothe late Des Traynor I had
certain dealings with representatives of Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited which were the
subject of an examination before the Inspectors on the 17* December 2000.
Consequently this statement is with specific reference to thefourth paragraph of the letter of.
the 25® May 2000.

In the course of my employment assecretary to the late Des Traynor, I on occasion over a
period of years at Ms offices did typing wade on behalf of the late Mr. John Funs when Mr.
Furze visited Dublinfrom Cayman. In Ac earlier years Mir. Furze was in the habit of giving
me gifts, such as perfume etc. as a token of his appreciation I was, at the time of my first
involvement with Mr Furze; employed by Guinness & Mahon Bank. Subsequently when
Mr Traynor left the bank and became Chairman of CRH pic I left the bank also as there was
no positionfor me in Guinness & Mahon and Mr Traynor offered me employment in CRH.
I was Mr Taylor's secretary both while with the bade and CRH and my salary was paid
by the bank and CRH as appropriate.

Inthe late 1970's/ eariy 1980's on a date I cannot recall Mr. Furze advised me that he had
opened an accountfor me with Ansbacher (Cayman) limited and he made a lodgement to
that accountfor me. This was entirely gratuitous and I understood this was in place of the
gifts he had thertofbre given to me. I did not know how much had been lodged, when it was
lodged or where it was lodged. I never discussed the matter with Mr. Furze or anybody else.
I did not open any account with Ansbacher nor did I request that an account be opened in
my name. I newer lodged money to Ihe Ansbacher account
On two occasions I made withdrawalsfix>m this accountfor a total anu>unt of .
approximately £10,000. Thefirst withdrawal wasfor afigure ofabout £1000 to assist my
aster in the UK who was infinancial difficulties. I cannot remember the date when Ihe
withdrawal was made or how it was done but I presume I requested Padraig Collery or Mr
Traynor to arrange itfor me. Withrespecttothe second withdrawal in or about 19961
wishedtopurchase a car. I requested Mir. Collerytoarrange a withdrawal and he did so. I
cannot retail specifically but I think I received a cheque drawn on Irish Intercontinental
Bankfrom Mr Collery. At thistimeMR Traynor had died

From time to time statements of account balances in Ansbacher were posted by Mr Traynor
to clientsfrom his office. This issue was discussed with the Inspectors at the meeting on the
17th December. While I do not specifically remember, I may have seen & statement of the
account balance standing to my credit in die course of sending out statements by Mr Traynor
as I assisted him in that exercise as part of my duties as his secretary. Apartfrom this
possibility I never received any statement or other communication concerning this account

Since die deaths of Mr. Furze and Mr. Traynor I have had no contact with anybody
concerning this account savefor the contact with Mr CoUery referred to above. My
involvement with the Ansbacher accounts related solely to my functions as Mr Traynor's
secretary and since his death I have had little or no involvement with the matter at all. I did
some work in the period immediately after Mr Traynor's death in much the same manner as
prior to his death but this was at the direction of Mr Collery and Mr Furze. Regarding the
monies lodged to an accountfor me I do not know where die account was maintained and I
have Hart no access to the account whatsoever save as referred to herein.

Regarding the other matters referred to in Schedule C to the letter of the 25th May 2000 not
already addressed here:
1. I neverreceivedprofessional advicefrom anybody concerning this account
2. I never caused to be executed a Deed of Trust or other instrument in the Cayman
Islands or elsewhere.
3. I never received moniesfitim an account in Guinness and Mahon (Ireland) Limited
in any manner related to Ansbacher (Cayman). Limited. The only monies I ever
receivedfrom Guinness & Mahon (Ireland) Limited was my salary paid to me as the
late Mr Traynor's secretary when he and I both worked there.

4. I never arranged or participated in loan or guarantee facilities arranged by or with

Guinness & Mahon (Ireland) Limited
5. I never arranged or participated in loan or guarantee facilities arranged by or with
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited CUB").

6. I never arranged or participated in the transfer of money by IEB to Kredhbank N.V.

7. I never appHed for permission under the Exchange Control Acts in relation to any
transaction. Furthermore in so far as I am aware I was never a party to any
transaction which required permission under the said Acts.

8. I never established a company or trust in the Channel Islands.

9. I never availed of and nor was I offered the facility to avail of a trust or company by
anybody.
10. I had no interest direct or indirect in any body corporate or trust which had dealings
with Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited.
r-

Generally with reference to the use of the word "service" in appendix C to the letter of the
25th May 2000, save that die two withdrawals I have referred to here may be considered a
"servic^, I never availed of any "service" concerning any of the companies referred to in
appendix C at any time. None of the said "services" were ever discussed or offered to me by
any persoa

With reference to paragraph (2) on the second page of the letter of the 25* May 2000,1 have
no books or documents relating to the affairs of the company. I have no contact with and no
means of contacting Ansbacher (Cayman) Limited.

Dated this 21* day of September2000

u
SIGNED u •'•>/• r^vJC^U^*-
JOAWWIIIJAMS

21/09/0011:47
Appendix XV (134) (1) (c)
 ASTsIkicJmjt Limited
l.'nvm*iit

l/tO/y>! 30/ 9/92 FORWARD

•"/.'n/'J-i 30/10/92 LODGED

CARRIED FORWARD

c <•
ANSBACHER LIMITED
P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British West indies
Telephone No. 9-4853/4
Telex CP 305 Cable Address Guinness

A/A7

ACCOUNT NUMBER 80001004 pAQE 42

BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: Sterling

31977.66 31977.66
250.00

32227.66
Appendix XV (134) (1) (d)
 WBiWiTj

C.i
Ai'.tbanhrr Limited
L'flywan

FORWARD
i« '•> > 30/11/92 j r

\ rn
CARRIED FORWARD
*

C
 32227.66
250.00
Appendix XV (134) (1) (e)
I have debited GMCT *S* and credited GMCT'.A/A7 with
STCi218.0* reference IR&276.00.

Our &ef DPC/FMcG

Date 14th February 1984

.» • t •..
•

" • I-.-- ..
A / % «
* • » . ' •

•ess:

' i- ,
Appendix XV (134) (1) (f)
i

r
of Memorandum Account Ledger Balances in Hamilton Ross Co. Limited
Summary
K-m® 31/12/92 31/12/93 31/12/94 31/12/95 31/12/96
W w n e
Description

Ansbacher Des Traynor 90,429 ' 68,604 198.994 264,252 249,307

s
Appendix XV (134) (1) (g)
 men tof Account.

fimi
HAMILTON BOSS n
- j
A/A7
PAQE
ACCOUNT NUMBER 80001084 ' 24
BALANCE3 SHOWN ARE PC styling

30/11/94 BROUGHTFORWARD 52879.10

30/12/94 22/12/94 DRAWN 100.00 32779.10
31/12/94 31/12/94 Interest to 31/12/94 629.99
31/12/94 31/12/94 LODGED 250.00
31/12/94 31/12/94 LODGED 500.00

.11/12/94 54159.09
CARRIED FORWARD
Appendix XV (134) (l)(h)
 'EMENT.OF ACCOUNT

(HAMILTON HUBS

A/A7
L_ _J ACCOUNT NUMBER
BALANCES SHOWN ARE
PAGE

31/01/96 BROUGHTFORWARD 83065.50

08/02/96 08/02/96 IEP471 487.49

29/02/96 82578.01
CARRIED FORWARD
Appendix XV (134) (1) (i)
M 1CBMBNt OF ACCOUNT

[HAHM/IHK WKiS ^

29/02/96 BROUGHTFORWARD
08/03/96 08/03/96 1R450
31/03/96 31/03/96 interest to 31/03/96

:u/iyj/')6
CARRIED FORWARD
Appendix XV (134) (1) (j)
 BROUGHTFORWARD

Si M MS—.

31/07/yn CARRIED f o r w a r q
Appendix XV (134) (1) (k)
 (
&1T&V1MI!

U
JJXmj
AMJJ/TOH BOSS

L. J
y/02/93 BROUGHT FORWARD
[U/U3/93 31/03/93 LODGED
) /P:J/*J3 31/03/93 Interest to 3i/03/93

U/0.VV3
\ CARRIED FORWARD
ANSBACHER LIMITED .
P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British West Indies
Telephone No. 9—4653/4
Telex CP 305 Cable Address Guinness

A/A7
ACCOUNT NUMBER 80001084 PAQE 3
BALAN0E8 SHOWN ARE IN: Sterling

33825.88
250.00
490.65

34566.53

<
n jfin:
MILTON ROSS

L. J

I'l /W /')3 BROUQHT FORWARD

V,/»H/o3 3.1/12/92 LODGED
M./ni..-.^ 31/01/93 LODGED
 0.00
33325-80. 33325.88
250.00

33575.88
Appendix XV (134) (1) (m)
 ("AMTLTON £053

L.

n /113/03 BROUGHT FORWARD

:«l/< »/,/•).•', HO/O'i/93 LODGED
ANSBACHER LIMITED
P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British West Indies
Telephone No. 9—4653/4
Telex CP 305 Cable Address Guinness

A/A7

ACCOUNT NUMBER 8 0 ( J 0 1 0 8 4 PAGE 4

BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: s t e r x j

34566.53
250.00

34016.53

(
Appendix XV (134) (1) (n)
 mjsljacher Limited
Dayman

'•n/1.:l./"2 BROUGHT FORWARD

V./12/92 31/12/92 LODGED
n/12/92 31/12/92 Interest to 31/12/92
 32477.66
250.00
598.22

33325.88
Appendix XV (134) (1) (o)
 ft WCLTON JC0S3
n
A/A7

L_ J ACCXXJNT NUMBER 00001004

BALANCES8H0WN ARE M:
PAGE
sterling •
11

lil BROUGHTFORWARD 44391.1)8

i :«)/u/9:i LUUUKL
DlXUiu
230.00

;! i /".? 44641.08
CARRIED FORWARD
Appendix XV (134) (1) (p)
G
PBjxtoh w e n

L. J
W/n/i/-r\ BROUGHT FORWARD
r7.i/nr»/y3 03/05/93 LODGED
!1 'ft;,/n;j 31/05/93 LODGED.

ru /or>/9:?
CARRIED FORWARD

<
ANSBACHER LIMITED
P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British West Indfes
Telephone No. 9—4653/4
Telex CP 305 Cable Address Guinness

A/A7
ACCOUNT NUMBER 00001084 PAGE
BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: sterling

34816.53
5000.00 39816.53
250.00

40066.53
)

(
Appendix XV (134) (1) (q)
 J
1
'•* I BROUGHT FORWARD
•... i M /•. . o / /10/V.'J LOIXJKD
• i /111/*• MI/JO/'j:\ LOWED

i •! • i '*««
CARRIED FORWARD
A N S B A C H E R LIMIT.
P.O. Box 887 Grand Cayman British West Indies
Telephone No, 9—4653/4
Teiex CP 305 Cable Address Guinness

A/A7
ACCOUNT NUMBER 80001084 PAQE 10
BALANCES SHOWN ARE lit Sterling

42141.08
2000.00 44141.08
250.00

44391.08
Appendix XV (134) (1) (r)
 r-j&v? 1lytifflWJ&ACGO u N.;j.-

^iT)
iftH)i;rt»i HOBS

L. - J

./o «;/:H BROUGHTFORWARD

1/'):.'/ 23/09/1)4 LOOSED .
29/09/94 LODGED
30/09/34 Internet to 30/09/94

3)
-D

;n/0'.J/'M
CARRIED FORWARD
V-C
 A/R7
ACCOUNTNUMBER 80001084 PAQE 21
BALANCES SHOWN ARE IN: starling

48550.33
3000.00
250.00 51800.33
578.77

52379.10
Appendix XV (134) (l)(s)
 <aamr I&MENT OF ACCOUNT

fum
AM1LT0N HOSS n
A/A7
_J ACCOUNTNUMBER 80001084 PAGE 27
BALANCE88HOWNAREM: sterling

31/03/95 BROUGHTFORWARD 55088.54

25/04/95 25/04/95 LODGED 25000.00

ll/04/95^
CARRIED FORWARD
80088 .54
Appendix XV (135) Mr Robert Willis
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Robert Willis.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Robert Willis dated 9 February 2000.

b) Letter of 8 February 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.

c) Letter of 5 October 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.

d) Letter of 4 October 1991 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.

2. Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Robert Willis.

a) Letter of 3 December 2001 - Robert Willis to the Inspectors.

b) Letter of 5 February 2002 - Robert Willis to Inspectors.

Appendix XV (135) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. ROBERT WILLIS

UNDER OATH

ON WEDNESDAY, 9TH FEBRUARY 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer
The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

MR. ROWAN FCA

MS. MACKEY BL

Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: MR. ROBERT P. WILLIS

Represented by: MR. DIRMUID MURRAY

DELOITTE & TOUCHE

WITNESS EXAMINATION QUESTIONS

MR. ROBERT P. WILLIS MR. ROWAN 1-98

MS. MACKEY 9 9 - 119

MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 120 - 134

MR. ROWAN 135 - 148

MS. MACKEY 14 9 - 159

 2 9TH FEBRUARY 2 000

4 MR. ROBERT P. WILLIS, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS

5 EXAMINED AS FOLLOWS BY MR. ROWAN

7 1 Q. MR. ROWAN: Good morning, Mr. Willis.

8 A. Good morning.

9 2 Q. You very kindly wrote to us on 27th January. Have

10 you got a copy of your letter to hand, please,

11 Exhibit 1?

12 A. Yes.

13 3 Q. You confirmed very strongly in that letter,

14 particularly the third paragraph, that you have no

15 knowledge, directly or indirectly, of ever having

16 had a relationship with Ansbacher Cayman or with any

17 of the other companies mentioned in our letter to

18 you?

19 A. Yes.

20 4 Q. Is that the case?

21 A. "I have no knowledge or recollection"; do you want

22 me to repeat all the words?

23 5 Q. No, I am just listening to you?

24 A. That is so.

25 6 Q. Good. Am I right in believing that you in the past

26 have had an involvement with CRH?

27 A. Very much so.

28 7 Q. Can you just tell us what that involvement was,

29 please?

4
 1 A. Well, I was Managing Director of Irish Life from

2 1967, and I think it was about 1970 a take-over bid

3 was made by Roadstone Limited for Irish Cement

4 Limited. Since Irish Life had a significant

5 shareholding in each of those companies, a board was

6 being formed and there was an awful lot of ruckus

7 between the two companies. Irish Life was asked, or

8 asked to have a representative on the board and I

9 was asked to go on the board. That would have been

10 around 1970, or whenever the merger took place. It

11 became Cement Roadstone Holdings and subsequently

12 CRH, the same company.

13 8 Q. You were a non-executive Director?

14 A. Oh, yes.

15 9 Q. You went on the board around 1970, until when?

16 A. I want to be quite sure, it was 1991, the Annual

17 General Meeting -- wait till I work out my

18 birthdays. I was 67. Yes, May 1991. The

19 retirement age, in fact, was 70. Well, the late Des

20 Traynor was then the Chairman and he was rearranging

21 the board. That is a lot of history. Sorry, I will

22 just confine myself to your questions. I was on the

23 board until 1991, when I retired.

24 10 Q. You did, in fact, overlap with Mr. Traynor's time as

25 Chairman?

26 A. Oh, yes. I had to learn a whole lot of dates

27 latterly because I had totally forgotten them. I

28 think he became Chairman in 1987, I think. Oh, I

29 would have been one of the Directors who would have

5
 1 appointed him as Chairman.

2 11 Q. So you would have got to know him to some degree

3 ...(INTERJECTION).

4 A. Oh, I got to know him very well for a very long

5 time, because the early days of Cement Roadstone

6 were very torrid days. There was a lot of -- I am

7 sure I am talking in confidence here, but there was

8 an awful lot of in-fighting. Unfortunately, the two

9 boards were just put together in mini takeovers.

10 The stronger eliminates the weaker. But the two

11 came together and there was a great amount of

12 argument, even physical argument, and, if I may say,

13 I got to know Des Traynor very well. He was a most

14 sensible, calm, reasoned individual. I had a lot of

15 time for him.

16 12 Q. You knew him, if I may use the word, professionally

17 because of your serving on that board with him?

18 A. That was the only way. I didn't know him before I

19 came on the board.

20 13 Q. Did you know him socially as a result, perhaps, of

21 being on the board?

22 A. No. I don't think I was ever at his house. I dined

23 with him many times, as other professional

24 colleagues would have. There was always a mixed

25 dinner once a year, so I would have met him and his

26 wife in that connection, but always with other board

27 members.

28 14 Q. You say in your letter that you had money on deposit

29 with Guinness & Mahon in the period 1980 to circa

6
 2 A. Yes.

3 15 Q. Could you just tell us a little about that, please?

4 A. When I joined the board in 1970, there were fees

5 paid for Directors. Now, because I was an executive

6 in Irish Life I did not get those fees. This was an

7 arrangement I had set up myself with my own

8 Chairman. I didn't want people to spend time on

9 other companies earning other fees so they were paid

10 a salary and this was applied also to myself. We

11 were spending an awful lot of time, especially in

12 the early years, on committees or fire-fighting

13 exercises. There was, first of all, an informal

14 grouping set up by the Chairman, when he became

15 Chairman, Michael Doherty. That committee was

16 formalised -- I had to go back through old minutes

17 and records of CRH to get these dates because I

18 could not remember them, and it related to my own

19 tax situation. That committee, there were about

20 five or six of us on it, was formalised about 1978.

21 Again, I established that from old records. At some

22 stage, either then or later, payments were made to

23 those members of that committee. The earliest

24 record I can find payments for is 1983. This is

25 information I have given to Mr. McCarthy, so I have

26 it fairly fresh. Those payments, it would have been

27 with the agreement of my Chairman at Irish Life,

28 were paid to me, as distinct from the board fees

29 which were paid direct to Irish Life, until 1984,

7
 2 committee fees were in two parts; there was a fee

3 and there was an expense allowance. I would have

4 received those. The fees would have gone through

5 the PAYE system. The expense allowances were paid

6 gross. I gave those cheques to my business

7 colleague, Des Traynor, as whatever he was, Managing

8 Director of Guinness & Mahon Ireland, to open a

9 deposit account. I was saving, I didn't -- it was

10 spare money, so far as I was concerned, and I opened

11 a deposit account.

12 16 Q. You gave them to Des Traynor and said, 'Mr. Traynor,

13 would you put these into a deposit account for me?'

14 A. I don't know the words I used, but that was the

15 intention.

16 17 Q. At that point at the start of this, around 1983, of

17 course Mr. Traynor was not at that point with CRH?

18 A. Oh, he was. He came on the board at the same time

19 as I did. He was a non-executive Director of Irish

20 Cement from way back. So, he would have come onto

21 the CRH board, the new board with all his Cement

22 colleagues and with all the Roadstone colleagues,

23 and then there were one or two non-related persons,

24 like myself, and that was the new board.

25 18 Q. Forgive me, I intended to say as Chairman?

26 A. Oh, no, he would have been from 1970 to 1987 a

27 non-executive Director, exactly as myself.

28 19 Q. He was a fellow non-executive Director in CRH at the

29 same time as he was involved in the world of banking

8
 1 through Guinness & Mahon?

2 A. Correct.

3 20 Q. Therefore, you said, 'Please open a deposit account

4 for me.'

5 A. It was convenient. I was getting the cheques from

6 CRH and he was across the table or in the coffee

7 room, or wherever, and I saw him a couple of times a

8 month.

9 21 Q. That account was an account which you operated and

10 which you have talked to the Revenue about, as you

11 indicated in your letter?

12 A. Each amount of money was relatively small, a couple

13 of thousand. I think they were paid half yearly.

14 This was spare money, I was saving it.

15 22 Q. That gives me, at least at this point, sufficient

16 background. I wonder could I ask you, do you

17 maintain a bank account with the Royal Bank of

18 Scotland in London?

19 A. Yes. That goes back a very long time.

20 Incidentally, we have some papers that we got from

21 Guinness & Mahon when we asked them had they any

22 records. We have photocopies.

23 23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. It was actually way back -- I don't know when it

25 started, but it was a business account. We were

26 opening offices, Irish Life were opening offices in

27 London and Belfast in the 60's, and I would have had

28 an account, I presume taken out by the company. It

29 was actually a small bank called Williams & Glynn.

9
 1 I think they were connected with the Bank of

2 Ireland. That account went way back to I think the

3 60's. By the 70' s, I suppose I am sort of

4 speculating, but dates like the mid 70' s, I had a

5 whole network set up in the UK and I wasn't using

6 that account, as such, business wise and I took it

7 over as a personal account, and I kept small

8 balances, a couple of thousand in it, and when I was

9 over there my wife shopped, it was personal. The

10 record will show you where I asked Des from to time

11 to transfer £1,000, £2,000.

12 24 Q. Perhaps it is valuable if you would take us through

13 these papers and just describe to us what they are,

14 please, in connection with the Bank of Scotland

15 account?

16 A. The Bank of Scotland eventually took over Williams &

17 Glynn. If you ignore the bottom piece of paper for

18 a moment, dated 21st May 1986, there is a piece of

19 paper which says 2nd August 1979, "JDT to TRL"

20 Exhibit 2.

21 25 Q. Yes.

22 A. You see the bit in script that was behind that or

23 with it, which is Williams & Glynn Bank, that is my

24 handwriting, and there is R.P. Willis written at the

25 top. I don't know the precise details, but I asked

26 him to transfer £2,000 to that account. That is an

27 old number, because the number subsequently changed.

28 So, I have to assume that when it was that number it

29 would have been in the time when it had been set up

10
 1 by Irish Life, and then I subsequently took it over

2 as a joint account with my wife. However, you are

3 probably going to ask me anyway, but I do not know

4 -- I only saw these bits of paper about two months

5 ago when we asked Guinness & Mahon to search their

6 records for anything. You see the words "ultimate

7 debit to G.M.G. B/K7". That conveys absolutely

8 nothing to me. It might mean something to you.

9 MS. MACKEY: Sorry, which paper are we on?

10 MR. ROWAN: This is the last page, Exhibit

11 2.

12 A. I am working from the bottom.

13 MS. MACKEY: All right.

14 MR. ROWAN: It says "Urgent JDT to TRL".

15 A. Yes. Now, I do not know whether I had a deposit

16 account with Guinness & Mahon in Dublin at that

17 point in time or whether I would have asked him

18 could he facilitate me by sending £2,000 to London,

19 because otherwise it was going to be -- well, I

20 presume, even in those days, one could have

21 transferred £2,000, it wasn't a big amount, but it

22 would have meant a lot of paperwork and it was

23 easier to see a guy up in Fitzwilliam Square and

24 say, 'You are a banker, can you transfer £2,000?'

25 and he would say, 'Well, give me a cheque for

26 whatever it is, £2,100, and I will do it.' I could

27 not tell you now precisely what happened, but that

28 piece of paper emerged from Guinness & Mahon. I

29 accept that I asked him to transfer £2,000 to this

11
 1 account, which was in my name in Williams & Glynn.

2 That is 1979.

4 The next record is 13th August 1985, and that is,

5 Exhibit 3, still Williams & Glynn. I know at one

6 stage I got a letter from Williams & Glynn saying --

7 they were rather picky, you know -- 'You have not

8 been using this account and there is only a small

9 balance, what are you going to do about it?' I

10 would have again asked Des to -- the number has

11 changed, but it was the same account and it was

12 Williams & Glynn.

13 26 Q. That is account No. 17372804?

14 A. Yes, and I still have that account. Then in August

15 1986, now it has become Royal Bank of Scotland, but,

16 as you notice, it is the same address, Exhibit 4.

17 27 Q. Yes.

18 A. It is really just topping it up. I know I was going

19 over to the UK quite a bit, personally, in that year

20 because my sister was married -- well, she is a

21 widow -- in Newcastle-on-Tyne, and her husband died

22 early the next year. I also had a son living in the

23 UK for some of the time, working abroad. November

24 1986, I topped the account up again by another

25 £2,500. That is in 1986 (Exhibit 5).

26

27 The last one is dated 9th October 1990, Exhibit 6.

28 The account I had with Guinness & Mahon in Dublin,

29 as I understood in Dublin, I thought I had cleared

12
 1 that. I made a gift of the contents of that to my

2 son in 1987, to buy an apartment, and I thought the

3 account was closed and done away with. I had a

4 communication, maybe a telephone call, presumably in

5 1990, I thought it was 1989, from Des to say, 'There

6 is a small balance in this account, what do you want

7 to do with it?' As you can see from that last

8 letter, October 1990 Guinness & Mahon in Dublin sent

9 £1,000, again to the same number account, (Exhibit

10 6) and I think I got the rest as a cheque or cash.

11 As I say, I thought I had closed the Guinness &

12 Mahon account in 1987/88, but in fact there was a

13 small residue.

14

15 Finally, there is a longer piece of paper dated 21st

16 May 1986, Exhibit 7. I was bidding for a house and

17 you see at the bottom I was unsuccessful, in 1986,

18 and I asked Des could he give me temporary

19 accommodation. I, at that time, had an account in

20 Bank of Ireland, and if I can read or understand

21 this memo accurately, he was saying to CW, "Mr.

22 Willis may want a cheque in a hurry for something

23 less £10,000, which I already have in my current

24 balance in Bank of Ireland." I didn't use that

25 facility. Presumably, it is speculation, but I am

26 sure that the logic would have been I would have

27 said to him, 'Look, I have X thousand on deposit

28 with you, I may want bridging finance in a hurry, I

29 am going to an auction.' It must mean, by

13
 1 subtraction, that I had at least £30,000. But, it

2 does not mean that because he might have been

3 prepared to -- well, I probably would have had as

4 much as £30,000 at that time.

5 28 Q. Right, thank you. May I just raise one minor

6 question on the memo "Urgent JDT to TRL, Exhibit 2"?

7 A. Yes, 2nd August 1979.

8 29 Q. You mentioned that it was not at all obvious what

9 was meant by the "ultimate debit to GMGB/K7"?

10 A. Yes .

11 30 Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Traynor what that meant?

12 A. No, because I never saw this. I only saw this a

13 couple of weeks ago when I got it from Guinness &

14 Mahon.

15 31 Q. I want now to ask you to look at a copy document

16 which we have (SAME HANDED TO MR. WILLIS).

17 A. Yes, thank you. (Exhibit 8).

18 32 Q. You observed the date as 9th February 1990?

19 A. Yes .

20 33 Q. It is an instruction to ...(INTERJECTION).

21 A. That is the same account number, yes.

22 34 Q. ... to send a sum of £4,000 pounds to your account,

23 which we have established was with the Royal Bank of

24 Scotland?

25 A. Yes .

26 35 Q. That was a sum of money which in fact was coming

27 from Guinness & Mahon. I think you said to us that

28 your involvement with Guinness & Mahon, in terms at

29 least of a deposit account, finished about 1989;

 1 isn't that right?

2 A. Yes, I thought it had. Sorry, this is the first

3 time I have seen this one, Exhibit 8. Yes, sorry,

4 perhaps I should wait for your question.

5 36 Q. Therefore, what was happening was £4,000 was being

6 sent to your London account?

7 A. Correct.

8 37 Q. May I then please show you another letter, if you

9 would perhaps just read for a second, please?

10 A. Yes. That is headed "Ansbacher", Exhibit 9.

11 38 Q. If you analyse that letter, you will see it is on

12 Ansbacher paper?

13 A. Yes.

14 39 Q. It is a letter from Mr. Traynor instructing that

15 £1,000 Sterling is credited to Royal Bank of

16 Scotland account in London, and the cost should be

17 debited to Ansbacher Limited, Account No. 13154602.

18 What do you think was happening there?

19 A. Obviously, there was a further transfer. I must

20 have had a further credit or more credit in my

21 deposit account than I realised. As I say, I never

22 heard the word "Ansbacher" until I read it in the

23 newspaper, though I now know that there was an

24 Ansbacher in the UK, presumably it was this one.

25 40 Q. But you can see that what was happening was that

26 your London account was getting the credit of the

27 £1,000 Sterling?

28 A. £4,000, yes.

29 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Is it £1,000 or £4,000?

15
 1 A. There is 5th October ...(INTERJECTION).

2 41 Q. MR. ROWAN: Sorry, excuse me, yes.

3 Look at the one, please,

4 the £4,000 one, which is 8th February 1990, Exhibit

5 10?

6 A. Yes .

7 42 Q. We will deal with that one first.

8 A. Right.

9 43 Q. 8th February 1990Exhibit 10?

10 A. Yes .

11 44 Q. It has some of the same features, it is a request to

12 transfer £4,000 Sterling to your account?

13 A. Yes .

14 45 Q. It says it should be charged, "the debit should be

15 to our account 13154602"?

16 A. Yes .

17 46 Q. Do you have any appreciation of what was going on in

18 terms of where that was being charged to?

19 A. No. Let me be careful what I say. I believed that

20 I had a deposit account in Guinness & Mahon in

21 Dublin. From all that I have read in the newspapers

22 -- I mean, this is one of my great problems today,

23 what did I know and what now did I think I knew.

24 I think now that there was an account, without my

25 authority, with some overseas body. I am sure

26 somewhere along the line there are these little

27 slips of notification of credit balances which I

28 certainly got and asked questions about and didn't

29 get an answer, that now, with great hindsight, it

16
 1 clicks. I always believed I had an account in

2 Dublin, but I now think that my money may well have

3 been somewhere else. I had assurance, because I --

4 I haven't this in context now, but I had assurance

5 from Des, 'You have nothing to worry about, your

6 money is in Dublin, you have full access to it

7 whenever you want it.' I don't remember a lot of

8 things, but I must have asked that more than once,

9 because I remember that. I am agreeing with you

10 that that seems to show that my money, or some of my

11 money was in some overseas account, but not at my

12 instance. I presume that is important.

13 47 Q. If that was a transfer to your London account out of

14 another account in Ansbacher, did you ever receive

15 documents in relation to that account?

16 A. This account?

17 48 Q. Yes .

18 A. Not at all, no. I didn't even know the name

19 "Ansbacher". I am quite sure of that.

20 49 Q. Well, why do you think then £4,000 was being

21 transferred out of that account?

22 A. I presume I asked Des to transfer £4,000. What

23 surprises me, because I thought there was only this

24 -- I have been quickly looking at your second

25 letter, Exhibit 9, and that corresponds with the one

26 I have, the £1,000 Exhibit 4.

27 50 Q. Yes .

28 A. I thought that that was the tag end of my account,

29 but there must have been, if you like, £5,000 in it,

 2 51 Q. All right, let's carry on.

3 A. I have just been reminded that the letter I

4 submitted to you, dated 9th October 1990, is an

5 acknowledgment from the Royal Bank of Scotland to

6 Guinness & Mahon, College Green, Exhibit 6.

7 52 Q. Yes. Perhaps we can come back to these matters a

8 little later?

9 A. Okay.

10 53 Q. What I want to show you now is a copy of a cheque,

11 Exhibit 11. It is a cheque on Cement Roadstone

12 Holdings cheque account. If you would just, please,

13 like to have a look of it (SAME HANDED TO MR.

14 WILLIS). The copy, I am afraid, is not very clear,

15 but I think there is sufficient detail on it for you

16 to get an impression of the cheque.

17 A. £1,639.

18 54 Q. 69, I think it is?

19 A. Yes.

20 55 Q. What do you think that cheque might have been in

21 relation to? What were you getting paid for by that

22 cheque?

23 A. In June 1987, those would have been board fees --

24 well, I think the committees fees had stopped in

25 1986, so it has to relate to a board payment or a

26 reimbursement. I am guessing. It is a

27 straightforward Cement Roadstone Holdings cheque

28 payable to me and obviously given to Guinness &

29 Mahon.

18
 1 56 Q. Yes, all right. Could I show you then another

2 document, which is a Banque de Nationale de Paris

3 cheque -- draft, I think it is, actually, Exhibit

4 12?

5 A. Yes .

6 57 Q. For IR£1, 05 0?

7 A. Yes. I had a deposit account with BNP, of which I

8 was a Director. I have had a deposit account for a

9 very long number of years there.

10 58 Q. That was a payment to you once again?

11 A. Yes. I see what you are asking me. I would have

12 been ...(INTERJECTION).

13 59 Q. Sorry, Mr. Willis, I haven't asked you

14 ...(INTERJECTION).

15 A. Sorry, I won't jump ahead.

16 60 Q. Would you just bear with me for a second. I would

17 like to show you a third document, which is a Church

18 & General cheque for IR£397.50, Exhibit 13?

19 A. Yes, also 1987.

20 61 Q. Made payable to you?

21 A. Yes .

22 62 Q. What I wanted to put to you, Mr. Willis, was that

23 rather interestingly those three cheques, plus

24 another in the amount of £3,382, payable from AIB,

25 those four cheques were lodged on 23rd July 1987 to

26 a Guinness & Mahon account, and I wondered how it

27 was that they all came together to be lodged on the

28 same day?

29 A. Well, the most likely explanation, and I am trying

19
 1 to think backwards, was I had arranged with my son

2 that he would buy this apartment and I presumed that

3 the account, or I thought the account -- I think the

4 account in Guinness & Mahon needed to be topped up

5 to meet the expected outlay. That outlay, as I said

6 to you earlier, was in 1987. These would all have

7 been cheques out of -- Banque de Nationale a deposit

8 account, which as I say is still there, the Church &

9 General would have been board fees from Church &

10 General of which I was a Director, and similarly

11 CRH. I presume all these cheques had come in and I

12 gathered them together and said to Des, 'Put these

13 into my account.'.

14 63 Q. Okay. I want to show you now another document,

15 which is a copy of a Guinness & Mahon ledger card.

16 You will observe that it is an account in the name

17 of Amiens S/L, No. 2 account, Exhibit 14?

18 A. Yes .

19 64 Q. Account no. 10407006?

20 A. Yes .

21 65 Q. Do you recognise a document of that sort? Have you

22 seen that sort of thing before?

23 A. No, never. I had only heard of Amiens when it came

24 out in all this recent literature. Is there

25 anything that seems to connect it with me?

26 66 Q. Well, I wanted to know whether, in fact, you had

27 seen that before, because the total of the cheques

28 that I was mentioning, plus another cheque, were the

29 subject of that lodgement on 23rd July 1987, the

 1 credit of £12,910.29. So, your cheques were part of

2 that lodgement. The point I am getting to is that

3 your cheques were lodged, as we have heard, on your

4 behalf into this Amiens S/L account, Amiens

5 Securities. I want to tell you now that this was an

6 Ansbacher account which was maintained in Guinness &

7 Mahon, into which Irish currency was lodged or from

8 which payments were drawn in Dublin?

9 A. Yes.

10 67 Q. So I want to give you that piece of information.

11 A. Thank you, yes. This does not mean anything to me.

12 I accept, obviously, that these were cheques in my

13 favour which I lodged in Guinness & Mahon. I don't

14 know what happened to them after that. I assumed

15 they were going into my deposit account to correct

16 what, presumably, was a shortage in the money that I

17 was sending to my son.

18 68 Q. You do not have any records of your deposit account?

19 A. No. The only records I ever received, that I can

20 recall, were these little white slips of paper,

21 which I didn't keep. Presumably, I had kept, but I

22 haven't got now.

23 69 Q. Can you describe the white slips of paper, please?

24 A. Not very well. From time to time, I was handed in

25 an envelope, obviously by Des, a piece of paper -- I

26 cannot really say now, it might have been that sort

27 of size (INDICATING), which would have shown my

28 balance and presumably any additions and interest.

29 I think it had my name, I knew it was mine. I don't

21
 1 recall any other documentation. I know this sounds

2 awfully naive, but I would totally trust Des

3 Traynor. I sat with him for years.

4 70 Q. It didn't have the name of a bank on it?

5 A. No, no.

6 71 Q. Was that not a surprise?

7 A. It was, and I asked him -- well, when I say I asked

8 him, I am sure, I believe I asked him and I believe

9 I got some sort of soft answer, it was this mantra

10 again, 'You have nothing to worry about, your money

11 is in Dublin and you can have access to it any time

12 you want to.' I am sure he said that at least twice

13 to me. As the time went on, sure, I felt everything

14 wasn't quite kosher, but either I hadn't the guts or

15 I didn't want to ask or find out what he had done

16 with my money. I was giving it to him to put into

17 an account in Dublin and that is what I believed.

18 72 Q. From time to time you would have earned some

19 interest on this unnamed deposit account?

20 A. Yes.

21 73 Q. In the ordinary course of events, you would have

22 considered yourself to have some sort of a taxation

23 liability on the interest?

24 A. Yes, which I didn't return. I have been able to

25 check that through looking at my accounts. Now, to

26 this day I am not sure whether banks, in fact,

27 returned interest. I certainly didn't return it,

28 but I don't know whether banks, before DIRT,

29 returned interest to the Revenue Commissioners.

22
 1 74 Q. Let's carry on. I would like you to look at

2 another Ansbacher letter of 4th October 1991,

3 Exhibit 15?

4 A. Yes .

5 75 Q. You can see it has a similar format to the others

6 except this time it is an instruction to Irish

7 Intercontinental Bank?

8 A. Yes .

9 76 Q. Once again that money is being sent to London?

10 A. That must have been the time that the account was

11 closed then.

12 77 Q. You are getting the credit in London and it is being

13 charged, debited to the ...(INTERJECTION).

14 A. To the same London account number, yes.

15 78 Q. That is right, it is being credited to the same

16 account number in London and charged to the

17 Ansbacher account No. 02/01087/81?

18 A. Yes. I never saw any of these letters.

19 79 Q. Am I correct, you don't know what that account in

20 Ansbacher is?

21 A. Absolutely not.

22 80 Q. Well, I wonder then could I help you by telling you

23 that that was an account which Ansbacher maintained

24 in Irish Intercontinental Bank which allowed money

25 to be lodged and payments to be made in Dublin, as a

26 matter of record?

27 A. Grand.

28 81 Q. If I can summarise where we have got to here, you

29 say that you had a deposit account which was

23
 1 organised by Desmond Traynor?

2 A. Yes .

3 82 Q. And that you believed the deposit account was

4 maintained in Dublin?

5 A. Absolutely.

6 83 Q. But you now have seen evidence which suggests that

7 it was an Ansbacher account?

8 A. Of some sort, yes. From all I have read in the

9 papers, the newspapers, I have had this suspicion

10 for some months now that my money was not

11 necessarily in Dublin.

12 84 Q. But, of course, you were fairly firm with us in your

13 letter, weren't you, when you say "I had no

14 knowledge directly or indirectly Exhibit 1"?

15 A. That was meant to convey -- yes.

16 85 Q. But you did have a concern?

17 A. I did have a concern, yes, but I had no proof.

18 86 Q. You also received rather scanty documentation for

19 this Ansbacher account, as we now know, where the

20 information did not disclose the name of the bank,

21 but that you did earn interest on that deposit

22 account?

23 A. Correct.

24 87 Q. Do you have any other documentation which might be

25 relevant to this, now that you know the real

26 position?

27 A. No, sir, but, as I have said in my letter, I am most

28 anxious to find anything that exists. I am anxious

29 to help. I have no papers and I have no knowledge,

24
 1 but if you can give me -- I could write to Ansbacher

2 asking them for a statement of account or whatever,

3 but I have no frame of reference. There are numbers

4 here that might ...(INTERJECTION).

5 88 Q. Well, you do have now?

6 A. Yes, and I am quite willing ...(INTERJECTION).

7 89 Q. And you do have an address and we would like you,

8 please, to do that.

9 A. Certainly, and use these numbers?

10 90 Q. Yes.

11 A. Well, are there different numbers?

12 91 Q. You can pass copies of that information to Ansbacher

13 and they should be able to provide you with details,

14 going back to the middle 80's, of the account which

15 Mr. Traynor provided you with, with I think the top

16 cut off the statements?

17 A. It was like a computer printout sort of thing, with

18 obviously lots of space.

19 92 Q. It would have been like the Guinness & Mahon

20 statement, but with the top cut off (Exhibit 14)?

21 A. The one that you said was Amiens.

22 93 Q. Yes, the Amiens ...(INTERJECTION).

23 A. This one (INDICATING)?

24 94 Q. Yes.

25 A. You are telling me this is it?

26 95 Q. I believe it to be the case.

27 A. I see. Thank you. I thought it had my name on it.

28 96 Q. Well, that may be a possibility, but, in any event,

29 if you would please write to Ansbacher Cayman and

25
1 ask them to provide you with whatever information

2 they have?

3 A. Using these references?

4 97 Q. Yes .

5 A. The two bits of paper?

6 98 Q. Yes .

7 A. Certainly.

8 MR. ROWAN: Thank you. I haven't got any

9 other questions at the present

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 2 MS. MACKEY

4 99 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. Willis, I just have one or

5 two questions I would like to

6 ask you. You have seen the document Mr. Rowan has

7 shown you there, the letter on Ansbacher paper,

8 dated 5th October 1990, directed to the Irish

9 Intercontinental Bank Limited, Exhibit 8?

10 A. Yes.

11 100 Q. Did you have an account with Irish Intercontinental

12 Bank?

13 A. No, no, never.

14 101 Q. Did Mr. Traynor indicate to you that your monies had

15 moved from Guinness & Mahon to Irish

16 Intercontinental Bank?

17 A. No. Well, I have to be careful. I don't recall

18 that he ever did. I know Irish Intercontinental

19 Bank, I knew Paddy McEvoy quite well. In fact,

20 Irish Life owned part of Irish Intercontinental for

21 quite some time. So, I would have had that sort of

22 relationship. No, it is quite a surprise to me.

23 102 Q. You were telling Mr. Rowan a few moments ago that

24 you thought you had cleared out your account in

25 Guinness & Mahon at the end of 1989?

26 A. Yes, I transferred to my son sums sufficient to buy

27 his apartment. I am surprised that there was as

28 much as £5,000 left, but presumably I had

29 over-provided in these various cheques.

27
 1 103 Q. I think you said to us also that you were surprised

2 to find that there was a little extra left, because

3 Mr. Traynor asked you if he would transfer it to

4 your bank, the Bank of Scotland?

5 A. Yes, and I thought that was in 1990, but obviously

6 that was the communication in 1991. Is that

7 important?

8 104 Q. I am trying to clarify what exactly happened to the

9 balance of the account in Guinness & Mahon. You

10 thought you had cleared it out in order to assist

11 your son?

12 A. Yes.

13 105 Q. Then, I think you told us, if I am not mistaken,

14 that Mr. Traynor contacted you and said there was a

15 small balance ...(INTERJECTION).

16 A. Yes, but I am now not sure whether that was in 1990

17 or 1991.

18 106 Q. We saw some evidence of a transfer in 1990, to your

19 bank, the Bank of Scotland, of £1,000?

20 A. £4,000 then. Wait, now. Sorry, I better let you

21 lead me. It was £1,000, yes.

22 107 Q. It was both, there was £1,000 and there was £4,000?

23 A. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Right, 5th October, 1990,

24 Exhibit 9,and 4th October 1991, and that is £1,000

25 and that is £1,000 Exhibit 15. There must be

26 another ...(INTERJECTION).

27 108 Q. No, it is the two in 1990.

28 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Here is a non-headed one.

29 A. Thank you.

28
 1 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: February, October, right.

2 109 Q. MS. MACKEY: It is two of February, I

3 think, 1990; is that

4 right?

5 A. Well, 5th October and 8th February, yes Exhibit 10.

6 110 Q. One sending £1,000 and the other £4,000?

7 A. Correct.

8 111 Q. They are both in 1990?

9 A. Correct.

10 112 Q. That, as you understood it, was the balance of your

11 account being transferred over to the Bank of

12 Scotland?

13 A. I think so, yes. I am trying to remember. I am

14 surprised that there are three transfers in 1990 and

15 1991. I would have thought, if you had asked me, I

16 would have thought there was one.

17 113 Q. What I am trying to really ascertain here is how

18 money of yours got to the Irish Intercontinental

19 Bank?

20 A. I see what you mean. I don't know. I mean, I

21 didn't put it there.

22 114 Q. Did you continue to get statements from Mr. Traynor

23 after 1990?

24 A. No. I don't know, but I would have thought that I

25 didn't get statements after 1987/88, when I cleared

26 out the balance, which was about £70,000. I don't

27 remember. It is very hard to remember anything now

28 with accuracy, but I don't recall that I got

29 statements after the major transaction. I cannot

29
 1 account for the 1990 letters at all. I mean, if you

2 had said to me there was that £1,000 in 1991,

3 whether it was Intercontinental Bank or anywhere

4 else, I would have thought that was the tag end of

5 my account. These two quite surprise me, the £4,000

6 and the £1,000.

7 115 Q. I am more interested in the 1991 one, as to how the

8 money came to be in Irish Intercontinental Bank

9 since you say you have no ...(INTERJECTION)?

10 A. I never put it there. I certainly would have long

11 since stopped -- I mean, those 1987 lodgements, I

12 suppose I would have to say I would guess, but my

13 recollection would be those would have been the last

14 of the lodgements I ever made.

15 116 Q. Okay, thank you. What, as far as you know, is the

16 status of your account now?

17 A. Which account?

18 117 Q. The account that you originally opened with Des

19 Traynor?

20 A. Oh, long gone.

21 118 Q. Long gone?

22 A. Yes .

23 119 Q. You didn't know until now that you had money in

24 Irish Intercontinental Bank?

25 A. I am sure that there was some conversation between

26 Des Traynor and I, which now must have been 1991,

27 saying 'Do you want me to close this or whatever,

28 because you have not been making lodgements?' I am

29 sure it is long gone.

30
 2 questions. Thank you,

3 Mr. Willis.

5 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. WILLIS BY MS. MACKEY

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 2 COSTELLO

4 120 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I have just a few

5 questions. Mr. Traynor

6 had offices in Cement Roadstone, CRH; isn't that

7 right?

8 A. Yes, sir, from the time he would have been Chairman.

9 That would have been from May 1987.

10 121 Q. You used to go in to his offices to get these

11 statements that you referred to?

12 A. No.

13 122 Q. Where did you get the statements from?

14 A. Anywhere and everywhere. At lunch, or coffee, or

15 somewhere. No, I respected his offi ce, that was the

16 office of the Chairman of CRH.

17 123 Q. It was Mr. Traynor, anyway, who gave you these

18 statements?

19 A. Yes.

20 124 Q. On a casual basis ...(INTERJECTION).

21 A. Yes, or he might post them to me.

22 125 Q. Or he might post them to you. Was this on a regular

23 basis, Mr. Willis?

24 A. I cannot really say. I don't have an impression of

25 regularity, but I cannot really say now. It would

26 have stretched over the years, let's say, from 1980

27 to 1988, but it might have been once a year or twice

28 a year.

29 126 Q. Why do you think it finished in 1988?

32
 1 A. Well, for several reasons. First of all, the main

2 trigger for the payments to Mr. Traynor were the

3 committee fees, and they ceased, I have been able to

4 establish, in 1986. In fact, we changed the system.

5 I wanted all board members to be available to be

6 members of committees, so we changed the system then

7 and increased the main board fees and eliminated

8 the others. That happened in the mid or late half

9 of 1986. That was the main trigger. It was those

10 cheques I was giving him. Then, the next step was I

11 arranged for the payment as a gift to my son, he had

12 a personal problem, but anyway, and this apartment

13 was bought. That happened -- again, I have checked

14 the dates with him, and that finally was occupied in

15 the Spring of 1988. So, the payments for that would

16 have gone out through 1987 in tranches.

17 127 Q. You say the payments went out. Did you make

18 lodgements so that the payments would go out?

19 A. I thought there was enough in the account. In fact,

20 it had been on that basis I would have talked to my

21 son, 'Find find an apartment costing so many

22 pesetas'

23 128 Q. It does appear, Mr. Willis, that there was money in

24 the account after 1988?

25 A. Yes, sir.

26 129 Q. Did you make any lodgements after 1988?

27 A. Not that I recall. I had the capacity to do it, my

28 cash flow was strong and I wasn't spending, but I

29 don't recall making any lodgements after the 1987

 2 130 Q. It looks now, does it not, as if your deposit was

3 maintained after 1988 and 1989, right up to 1991, at

4 any rate?

5 A. That is so.

6 131 Q. In your letter to us you said that you informed the

7 Revenue Commissioners that you had money on deposit

8 for the period 1980 to ending circa 1989?

9 A. Yes. That was my belief.

10 132 Q. It is inaccurate now, I think?

11 A. Yes.

12 133 Q. You accept that is inaccurate?

13 A. Oh, yes, I do.

14 134 Q. During the period you were receiving interest on the

15 payments these were not returned for income tax

16 purposes and you are in discussion with the Revenue

17 about it?

18 A. Correct.

19

20 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. WILLIS BY MR. JUSTICE

21 COSTELLO

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 2 MR. ROWAN

4 135 Q. MR. ROWAN: Mr. Traynor was Chairman

5 of CRH and you were a

6 fellow Director?

7 A. Yes.

8 136 Q. The role as Chairman of CRH would, presumably, since

9 he was executive Chairman, as I understand it

10 ...(INTERJECTION).

11 A. No.

12 137 Q. He wasn't, he was a non-executive Chairman?

13 A. Yes, non-executive.

14 138 Q. He had an office, nonetheless, and he had

15 secretarial support in his office?

16 A. In Fitzwilliam Square, when he became Chairman.

17 139 Q. He was non-executive Chairman?

18 A. Correct.

19 140 Q. Which meant that he was not engaged every day on CRH

20 business?

21 A. Yes, it was a very demanding office and he was very

22 good at it. For all the things that he has

23 allegedly done, and indeed rather let me down, he

24 was a very good Chairman, and he was a busy one, he

25 would have entertained, but I presume it wasn't

26 full-time. I didn't sit in judgment on him. But,

27 lots of things got done in CRH when he became

28 Chairman, including renovating the board.

29 141 Q. But he was also to provide this banking facility to

35
 1 you and obviously to others?

2 A. Yes .

3 142 Q. Did you know that he was involved?

4 A. No, I was shocked when I discovered, when I read

5 everything. I thought my little bank account with

6 Des Traynor of Guinness & Mahon was important to me.

7 143 Q. He wasn't from 1986, or thereabouts, he wasn't with

8 Guinness & Mahon anymore and yet you continued to

9 bank with him?

10 A. Yes, well, there was no problem with giving him

11 cheques. In fact, I didn't keep track of what he

12 was doing. I knew he had retired as Managing

13 Director of Guinness & Mahon. I wasn't sure after

14 that what his relationship was with Guinness &

15 Mahon. There seemed to be no problem, I just gave

16 him the cheques.

17 144 Q. As a Director of CRH, you were entirely comfortable

18 with your Chairman carrying out some sort of banking

19 capacity from CRH's offices?

20 A. I wasn't aware that he carried it out from CRH's

21 offices. I was entirely comfortable with him as the

22 Chairman of CRH and he did an excellent job. He was

23 Chairman of other things too, like New Ireland and

24 so on, and I presume he wrote letters and did

25 things. I trusted the guy 100% and I didn't have

26 any difficulty. Sorry, have I lost the thrust of

27 your question?

28 145 Q. Since you and he were on the board for much of the

29 same time, on the CRH board for much of the same

 1 time, and bearing in mind -- and you can see this

2 from two of the Ansbacher letters which we discussed

3 earlier -- you can see that the letters said,

4 "Please reply to 42 Fitzwilliam Square.(Exhibit 10

5 and 11)"?

6 A. Yes.

7 146 Q. As I understand it, that was his Chairman's office

8 in CRH?

9 A. That is correct. They moved offices from down the

10 road, but, yes, this is the address.

11 147 Q. Did he, do you believe, obtain the approval of the

12 board to using CRH's offices to front the Ansbacher

13 bank?

14 A. No, I am sure he didn't obtain it and I am sure we

15 did not know -- I didn't know and I don't think

16 anybody else did.

17 148 Q. Do you think that action would have been a breach of

18 his fiduciary duty as a Director?

19 A. I am not sure what -- I am not a lawyer, but to have

20 used an office -- I have to ask myself what is

21 conducting banking business. It wasn't a little man

22 behind a grill taking in money. Speaking

23 personally, I would not have expected CRH's

24 Chairman's office to be used for this sort of

25 business.

26

27 END OF FURTHER EXAMINATION OF MR. WILLIS BY

28 MR. ROWAN

29

37
 2 MS. MACKEY

4 14 9 Q. MS. MACKEY: Just in relation to that

5 last point made by

6 Mr. Rowan, when you first asked Mr. Traynor to open

7 an account for you or to take your cheques and put

8 them on deposit, you understood that to be in

9 Guinness & Mahon?

10 A. Dublin.

11 150 Q. At that stage Mr. Traynor was still connected with

12 Guinness & Mahon?

13 A. Yes.

14 151 Q. Once he had opened that account for you, why did you

15 not lodge your cheques directly to Guinness & Mahon?

16 Why did you give them to him?

17 A. Because, in many instances the cheques were with the

18 committee papers or the secretary handed them out,

19 it would be in a folder, we would be at the same

20 meeting. I did go in to College Green, I cannot

21 remember whether it was frequently, whenever it was

22 convenient ...(INTERJECTION).

23 152 Q. In connection with this particular account?

24 A. Oh, yes, to give him the cheques.

25 153 Q. To give them?

26 A. To him, personally.

27 154 Q. To Mr. Traynor, personally?

28 A. Yes.

29 155 Q. You went in to Guinness & Mahon and you gave them to

38
 1 him personally?

2 A. Oh, yes.

3 156 Q. Following his departure from Guinness & Mahon, you

4 continued to give him cheques?

5 A. Yes.

6 157 Q. Why would you hand cheques to your Chairman to lodge

7 for you when he was no longer connected with

8 Guinness & Mahon.

9 A. I always associated him with Guinness & Mahon, even

10 when he ceased -- to me he was always Des Traynor of

11 Guinness & Mahon.

12 158 Q. But he wasn't, in fact?

13 A. Well, yes, I hear you. I don't know how or where,

14 whether he had -- well, I don't know if he had

15 another office, but I would have sought an

16 opportunity -- it wasn't very often, it was twice a

17 year, and it wasn't for very long, because, let's

18 think again -- May 1987. My depositing had stopped

19 very shortly after that. Not because he was

20 Chairman, but because I was paying the money out.

21 159 Q. Presumably, when you handed the cheques to

22 Mr. Traynor after his departure from Guinness &

23 Mahon, he, if it was in the normal course of

24 banking, would have had to organise a secretary or

25 someone to go to Guinness & Mahon where he no longer

26 worked and lodge them for you. It just seems

27 unnecessarily complex?

28 A. Yes, I hear you. Yes, I gave him the cheques, that

29 is for sure.

39
 1 MR. MACKEY: Very good. Thanks,

2 Mr. Willis.

4 END OF FURTHER EXAMINATION OF MR. WILLIS BY

5 MS. MACKEY

7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Thank you, Mr. Willis.

8 You will contact Ansbacher

9 then and give us all the records that they have in

10 relation to your account?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, thank you.

13 Ms. Mackey has drawn my

14 attention to the fact that you also had an account,

15 it appears, in IIB. Would you write to IIB, as

16 well.

17 A. Write to them, too?

18 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Yes, find out about

19 your account there.

20 Apparently, it was in your name in IIB.

21 A. Was it?

22 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Well, perhaps not, it

23 may have been in

24 Ansbacher's name.

25 A. We will ask them. I have no trouble with doing

26 that.

27

28 THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED

29

40
Appendix XV (135) (l)(b)
 Ansbacher Limited
•Ob ; ' \ B l V i ^ l of die Henry Ansbacher Holdings PUC Merchant Banking Group
/ member
.• it _ "5 - •!
Please reply to: P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman. British Wat India
.. *j.X 'j'!'. ' • O. Phone: (809) 949-4653/4
42 Fitzwilliam Square, Tele* CP 4305
Dublin 2. Fax; (809) 949-7946
Tel: 765144/763065 * - ' (809) 949-5267
Fax: 612035

8th February, 1990.

M« Lanigan-O'Keeffe, Esq.,
Managing Director,
Guinness A Mahon.Limited,
17 College Green,
Dublin 2.

Dear Martin,
Could you please arrange to have Stg.£4,000 transferred, as
quickly as possible, to:
The Royal Bank of Scotland,
62/63 Threadneedle Street,
London,
for credit of the Account of
R.P. and E.P. Wil
Account No.1737
The debit should be to our No. 13154602.

Yours sincerely.
„. .. « w «• ... WW*—«••••

£ iii. • -Jl,
J.D. Traynor

JDT/AJW
 TT-T^rTTTr
rw "p r T Ansbacher Limited
-EH 2
A Mtii^ ijr^ihMf jlutew^oUjp PLC Merchant Banking Gr
f ?
P.O. Box 887, Cjrand Cayman, British Wot
V - Rr
\ M urA
YV -1
; Please reply to:
Phone (809) 94*4653/f'
42 HtzwOliam Squan£ Telex: CP 4305
Dublin 2. F»x (809) 949^-7946
•J267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax: 612035

M. David Humphries, Esq.,

Senior Manager - Operations,
Guinness & Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.

Dear David, i
Could you please arrange the nsfer of Stg.fil,000.00 to
The Royal Bank Scotland,
62/63 Threadne Street,
London,
for credit of the Accou
R.P. andrf.P. Willis,
Accountmo. 17372804.
The cost should be/debited to Ansbacher Limited Account
No.1 31 54602.'

J.D. Traynor.

JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (135) (l)(d)
 Ansbacher I'mitrd
\ <4 Manter tfthm Htnry Ambrndmr Haidkyj «C Mtnhmu Banking
•« P.O. Box IT. Oiud Caynaus.-MtiiJi Wro l«iiei
1
^ Please reply to: Ruar (SOT) 949-1633/4
42 Flcnvflliam Square, TiteCT4305
F«*. (*»} 949.7M
Dublin 2. Ct09) 949-J2J7
Tel: 763144/763063
Fas:612033

4th Octoberf 1991.

Garrett Logari, Esq.,
Irish intercontinental Bank Limited,
91 Merrion Square,
DUBLIN 2.

Dear Garrett,
Could you please arrange the transfer of Stg.11,000 to:
The Royal Bank of Scotland,
62/63 Threadneedle Street,
i London,.

for creditfcqthe Account of

:1
i R.P. and E.P. Willis,
Account No.17372804,
Please debit the cost to Ansbacher Limited Account
No. 02/01087/flil.
I

Yours sincerely,

JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (135) (2) (a)
RP Willis "Glenvale"
2 HammiU Park
Foxrock
Dublin 18
>rd December 2001 Phem Dublin . 2994542
fine Dublin - 2994542

Dear Sirs
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to respond to your
preliminary conclusions,as enclosed with your letter of 20th
ult. I wish to comment as follows

Re Para 2 (lines 5-6)

"Mr.Willis told the Inspectors that he did not know where
Mr.Traynor had opened the account".
This is a selective and,in my opinion,inaccurate
interpretation -apparently derived from my answer to Q 71-
which answer,by the way,concludes-"I was giving it to him to
put into an account in Dublin"—see also inter alia,the
references in Q27,Q35 and Q46.
Re Para 3
I always made,and believed I made, deposits with GMI. Whether
the fact that some (or all) of these deposits were re-lodged
with another party,without my instructions,makes me a "client"
of that third party,is a very moot point.
I request that your conclusion in this paragraph should be
qualified by "unknowingly"—or,at worst "knowingly or
unknowingly".

Yours faithfully

R.P.WILLIS

Office of the Inspectors appointed by the High Court etc.

3 r d Floor, Trident House,Blackrock.
Appendix XV (135) (2) (b)
 '-Willis
'QCenvaCe"
2tfainauCt Tarf^
ToTgocf^
DuBCin 18
5 t h February 2002
thone: Dubtin - 2894542

Dear Sirs

I refer to your letter of 15 th January,and in particular, to Paras.2 and 3 of the

Preliminary Conclusions attached to that letter.

I do not consider the word "usually" (line 4 Para.2) to be appropriate. It

could,and likely would, be interpreted to mean that,not only did I "usually
make lodgements in an informal manner,but,that I "usually" made those
lodgements on the premises of CRH. That interpretation could not be
justified by the evidence I gave on 9 t h February 2001.1 did not use the word
"usually" in respect of the location at which lodgements may have been made.

Secondly,may I refer again to my letter of 3 r d December last-in relation to your

conclusion that I "was a client of Ansbacher". On at least 4 occasions in my
examination, I referred to an account in Dublin,with GMI-as detailed in my
earlier letter. I repeat that I had absolutely no knowledge, at any time, that
funds belonging to me may have been placed by others with Ansbacher,
Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust, Ansbacher Cayman or Cayman International
Bank and Trust Company Ltd. In those circumstances to conclude that I was
a client of Ansbacher does not seem reasonable. It is also.I believe,
unreasonable to purport to base that conclusion,even in part,on my evidence
to you,which specifically denied any knowledge of Ansbacher,and the other
entities referred to. ,, f ^ ^

I therefore repeat my earlier request that,if you conclude (in my opinion,

erroneously) that I was a client of Ansbacher.your report must contain
reference to my sworn evidence that I had no such knowledge. Otherwise, I
believe your conclusions to be seriously misleading.

I would be appreciative if you would amend your conclusions to take fuii

account of these points .

Yours faithfully

Inspectors appointed by the High Court

3rd Floor,Trident House
Blackrock
Co.Dublin
Appendix XV (136) Mr Robert Wilson
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Robert Wilson.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Robert Wilson dated 18 February 2000.

b) Undated statement of Mr Robert Wilson.

c) Letter of 20 November 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and

Mahon.

d) Letter of 4 January 1993 - Ansbacher Limited to IIB.

e) Letter of 20 February 1978 - Guinness and Mahon to Robert Wilson &

Sons (Ireland) Limited.

f) Extract of the Central Bank of Ireland report as at 30 April 1978.

Correspondence received from or on behalf of Mr Robert Wilson.

a) Letter of 26 November 2001 - Kennedy McGonagle Ballagh Solicitors to

the Inspectors.
Appendix XV (136) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. ROBERT WISEMAN WILSON

UNDER OATH

ON FRIDAY, 18TH FEBRUARY 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer
The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

MR. ROWAN FCA

MS. MACKEY BL

Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: MR. ROBERT WISEMAN WILSON

Represented by: MR. R. LAW NESBITT SC

Instructed by: MICHAEL 0'SHEA

SOLICITOR

KENNEDY MCGONAGLE BALLAGH

2 0 NORTHUMBERLAND ROAD

DUBLIN 4
MR. R. WILSON MS. MACKEY 5 - 24

MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 25 - 34

 2 FEBRUARY

4 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Wilson, we will start

5 our interview then. My

6 name is Declan Costello and on my right is Ms Mackey

7 and as you know, we have been appointed Inspectors.

8 I should perhaps explain at the outset that this

9 isn't a Court and it is not a Tribunal, we are

10 having an interview.

11

12 If during the course of the interview there are any

13 questions on which you would like legal advice, then

14 of course we will stop and you can take advice and

15 if in the course of the interview your legal

16 advisors wish to give you legal advice in relation

17 to any questions, then we will stop and you can

18 receive it. But what we are essentially doing today

19 is to get your assistance as to the operation of the

20 company and your dealings with the company. I will

21 ask Ms Mackey to ask you some questions first.

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

4
 2 FOLLOWS BY MS. MACKEY

4 1 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. Wilson, if you could

5 just give me your full

6 name for the record?

7 A. It is Robert Wiseman Wilson.

8 2 Q. Can you just give me a brief summary of your career

9 to date and your present position please for the

10 record?

11 A. I started my business life up in the North of

12 Ireland and we had a company up there called Robert

13 Wilson and Sons Ulster Ltd. Then the company

14 developed into the Republic of Ireland and we had

15 factories here.

16 3 Q. When did you develop into the Republic?

17 A. In the 1960's.

18 4 Q. And your position with the company then at that

19 time?

20 A. I was the Chairman of it.

21 5 Q. And your position now?

22 A. The company went into liquidation in January 1983 I

23 think, but at the same time I had become involved

24 with a pharmaceutical company in the UK called

25 A Nelson and Co Ltd.

26 6 Q. Are you now with that company?

27 A. Yes. That company was small at the beginning of my

28 involvement in it and it is now a major company in

29 the field of the manufacture of homeopathic remedies

5
 2 7 Q. And your position now?

3 A. Is Chairman.

4 8 Q. You are Chairman of that company?

5 A. Yes. That company is based in England, in London.

6 9 Q. We have just had a brief opportunity to look at the

7 statement that you handed in this morning and I

8 would like to refer to that, I think you have a copy

9 of it have you?

10 A. Yes.

11 10 Q. You tell us in this statement that a trust was

12 established through a business relationship that you

13 had with Mr. Desmond Traynor, Exhibit 1?

14 A. Yes.

15 11 Q. I would like to ask you when did you first come in

16 contact with Mr. Traynor?

17 A. I have known Mr. Traynor for a long time, because

18 their company Haughey Boland used to do the audit

19 for the company.

20 12 Q. For Wilson and Sons?

21 A. That is right.

22 13 Q. So they were your accountants?

23 A. Yes. And then the relationship continued when he

24 moved to Guinness and Mahon and one always had the

25 highest regard for him and his undoubted ability in

26 this field. So he became a Director of the company.

27 14 Q. Of your company?

28 A. Yes.

29 15 Q. When did he become a Director of your company?

6
 1 A. I cannot honestly give you the date.

2 16 Q. Roughly?

3 A. In about I would think the early 1970's.

4 17 Q. You say here in your statement that it was through

5 Mr. Traynor that the trust was established; could

6 you just tell us about that and how that arose. Did

7 you first approach Mr. Traynor?

8 A. What happened, what I said in the statement, was

9 that it came to my attention that companies in the

10 UK were in a position to have...

11 18 Q. Trust arrangements?

12 A. Yes, discretionary trusts for their -- and it was my

13 brother-in-law who was a regional Director in Shell

14 who said to me that this was a very valuable thing

15 because like his own childrens' education was paid

16 for as such. So I suggested to Des Traynor whether

17 it would be possible for Robert Wilson in Ulster to

18 have a trust.

19 19 Q. You suggested to him that the company should have a

20 trust?

21 A. Yes, and he then said that he didn't envisage that

22 there would be a problem.

23 20 Q. Sorry, I did not quite catch that?

24 A. He said that he could, as far as I can recall, be

25 able to put one in place.

26 21 Q. At the time that you approached Mr. Traynor, had you

27 come down into the Republic of Ireland at that

28 stage, your company?

29 A. It was half and half, there was a lot of it up

 1 there, but...(INTERJECTION).

2 22 Q. But you were here?

3 A. Yes, I was here.

4 23 Q. Was it the Irish company as opposed to the company

5 in Ulster that was...(INTERJECTION)?

6 A. No, it was the Ulster company.

7 24 Q. That was setting up the trust?

8 A. Yes, exactly.

9 25 Q. So you said to Mr. Traynor that you would be

10 interested in doing this and he said to you that he

11 did not see any difficulty?

12 A. That is right.

13 26 Q. And what did he then say to you about how it would

14 be done?

15 A. It was then left to him to bring it about and I left

16 it entirely to him because of his undoubted

17 knowledge and experience in this area.

18 27 Q. Did he come to you with documents to sign in

19 relation to this trust?

20 A. The thing about it is that I cannot really recall

21 what was involved there in the signing, I can

22 vaguely recollect there being a trust deed. But the

23 problem is that it is so long ago and the thing all

24 ended.

25 28 Q. Can you remember who the settler of the trust was,

26 was it you?

27 A. I cannot recollect, it may well have been the

28 company.

29 29 Q. You cannot recollect that?

 1 A. No, because I did not actually consider that to be

2 an important aspect of it.

3 30 Q. When did Mr. Traynor say to you that the trust was

4 now in place?

5 A. I would say it would have been the middle 1970's.

6 31 Q. Did he come to you and say: Your arrangement is now

7 set up, or how did that come about?

8 A. He told me that the trust was now formed and was in

9 being.

10 32 Q. And did he tell you what the arrangements in the

11 trust were, who the beneficiaries were?

12 A. The beneficiaries were for myself and my family.

13 33 Q. Did you sign at that stage a letter of wishes in

14 relation to the trust?

15 A. No.

16 34 Q. You did not?

17 A. No, because I thought I was going to live for a good

18 length of time.

19 35 Q. Well, a letter of wishes as to how the trust funds

20 would be distributed and so on, you did not sign

21 such a document?

22 A. No.

23 36 Q. As the time went on, did you receive any statements

24 in relation to this trust and the state of the

25 finances and funds in it?

26 A. Yes, from time to time there were documents to

27 indicate the state of the trust fund.

28 37 Q. And how would you receive these documents, where

29 would you get them?

 1 A. I am not sure about how I got them, whether I got

2 them from Des or not I do not know, or through the

3 post.

4 38 Q. You do not know?

5 A. It is a long time ago.

6 39 Q. Well, it is no so long ago, I understand that from

7 your statement that the trust ended in 1992 which is

8 not that long ago?

9 A. Yes.

10 40 Q. So presumably up to that date you continued to

11 receive statements, is that correct?

12 A. No, there are no statements after the ending of it.

13 41 Q. But up to 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 42 Q. Can you not recollect whether Mr. Traynor handed

16 those to you or they came through the post?

17 A. I suppose it would have been the post generally

18 speaking.

19 43 Q. Can you describe these statements to us that you

20 received, were they in the form of bank statements?

21 A. They were extremely brief.

22 44 Q. What did they say as you remember?

23 A. They would have stated the amount in the fund.

24 45 Q. Anything else? Did they show interest accruing?

25 A. Sorry.

26 46 Q. Did they show interest accruing on the balance?

27 A. Sometimes they were difficult to follow in that as

28 far as I was concerned that you would have discerned

29 that from the fund.

10
 1 47 Q. I do not follow you. Did interest appear on the

2 face of the statement?

3 A. Yes, I suppose that there would have been that.

4 48 Q. Was your name on the statement as one would see

5 normally on a bank statement?

6 A. No.

7 4 9 Q. Was the name of the company on the statement?

8 A. It did have the management company.

9 50 Q. And what was the management company?

10 A. I do not know, I think it was Northern Finance.

11 51 Q. Northern Finance?

12 A. Yes.

13 52 Q. Do you have copies of any of these statements?

14 A. I have very few indeed, because...(INTERJECTION).

15 53 Q. But you have some have you?

16 A. There was no need to retain them.

17 54 Q. But you have some?

18 A. I have one or two.

19 55 Q. Would you furnish us with those that you have

20 please, is that possible?

21 MR. 0'SHEA: You have to see if you can

22 find them?

23 A. Yes.

24 56 Q. MS. MACKEY: Pardon?

25 A. I will see if I have got them left and if I have I

26 certainly will.

27 57 Q. Can you recollect any other things about these

28 statements? Did they contain the name of -- you say

29 they contained the name of the management company

11
 1 and this was Northern Finance?

2 A. Yes .

3 58 Q. This was the company managing the trust, is that

4 correct?

5 A. I am not sure about it, I left these matters

6 to...(INTERJECTION).

7 59 Q. No, I understand that you left the organisation of

8 it to Mr. Traynor, but I am simply asking you what

9 you read on these documents given to you?

10 A. Well, what they provided was the state of the fund,

11 the trust fund.

12 60 Q. They did not contain your name or the name of Robert

13 Wilson and Co?

14 A. To the best of my knowledge, they did not.

15 61 Q. Did they contain the name Guinness Mahon Cayman

16 Trust?

17 A. I think they did originally.

18 62 Q. Did they subsequently contain the name Ansbacher

19 Ltd?

20 A. No.

21 63 Q. They did not?

22 A. Again I would like to say that, as you know, things

23 did change and therefore to say that they did or did

24 not have Ansbacher, I really cannot be sure about

25 that.

26 64 Q. But you do recollect that they contained the name

27 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust?

28 A. Yes, that was certainly in the original ones.

29 65 Q. Did you ever give money to Mr. Traynor to lodge for

12
 1 you or to take care of for you or to invest for you?

2 A. The original one was from the company.

3 66 Q. The original fund?

4 A. Yes.

5 67 Q. And did you hand funds to Mr. Traynor or how was

6 that done?

7 A. No, as I recollect, he dealt with the entire

8 arrangements there because he was in fact the

9 Financial Director of the company.

10 68 Q. He was the Financial Director?

11 A. Yes, non-executive.

12 69 Q. Did you subsequently ever hand money to Mr. Traynor

13 or give money or send it to him to invest or to add

14 to the funds or deposit?

15 A. As far as I can recollect there was only one other

16 occasion and that was that there was a small sum

17 from the London company of A. Nelson and Co.

18 70 Q. From your present company?

19 A. Yes.

20 71 Q. When you say a small sum from that company, was this

21 a small fee or?

22 A. Sorry?

23 72 Q. What was the nature of this small sum?

24 A. It was £6,000.

25 73 Q. No, I mean how did it arise from the company, was it

26 salary or what was it?

27 A. It was after-tax salary.

28 74 Q. After-tax salary of yours?

29 A. Yes.

13
 1 MR. 0'SHEA: Do you recall that?

2 A. As far as I know, this was the status of the sum.

3 75 Q. MS. MACKEY: What did you do with that,

4 did you give this to

5 Mr. Traynor?

6 A. Sorry.

7 76 Q. Did you give this to Mr. Traynor?

8 A. I cannot recall that, the routing of it I cannot

9 recall.

10 77 Q. I am trying to get clear, you said that there was

11 one occasion. My initial question was: Did you ever

12 give money to Mr. Traynor to look after for you?

13 And you answered me that there was one occasion.

14 Did you mean that on that occasion you gave this

15 money to Mr. Traynor?

16 A. What I meant to say was that if there was any other

17 funds, it was added to...(INTERJECTION).

18 78 Q. To the trust fund?

19 A. To the trust fund.

20 79 Q. So this was in addition to the original trust fund?

21 A. Yes .

22 80 Q. And when was that?

23 A. I really cannot remember the dates, it would have

24 been possibly the early 1980's.

25 81 Q. Well, you moved to A. Nelson & Co. Ltd. after 1983,

26 isn't that correct?

27 A. I moved what?

28 82 Q. You moved to A. Nelson & Co. Ltd. after 1983?

29 A. Yes .
 1 83 Q. So it would have been some time after that?

2 A. Yes, about that. Mind you, that is what I recollect

3 as being the situation.

4 84 Q. Yes, I understand. Did you receive payments out of

5 the trust on occasion?

6 A. Yes.

7 85 Q. Can you tell us about those?

8 A. I received payments during the period from about

9 1984 onwards.

10 8 6 Q. And how did that arise? What would happen when you

11 wanted to receive a payment, what would you do?

12 A. I would ask Des whether it would be possible for the

13 trustees to consider making an appointment to me.

14 87 Q. And what would happen then?

15 A. An appointment would be made.

16 88 Q. And how would the money come to you then, would

17 Mr. Traynor give it to you, would you go to his

18 office, what happened?

19 A. It was usually given to me either to a bank account.

20 89 Q. He would lodge it to your bank account?

21 A. Yes.

22 90 Q. A transfer to your bank account?

23 A. Yes, I suppose so.

24 91 Q. And you would then withdraw it in the ordinary way?

25 A. Yes.

26 92 Q. You mention in your statement at the second last

27 paragraph, if you would like to just look at that,

28 you say there:

29 "Unknown to me, the trust gave a

guarantee to Guinness and Mahon and in

15
 1 due course this guarantee was called
in. The trust paid a total of £30,000
2 to Guinness and Mahon."

4 Was this in relation to a loan obtained by the

5 company Robert W. Wilson Ireland Ltd?

6 A. Yes, the company obtained a facility.

7 93 Q. Was that a facility of £125,000?

8 A. I believe so.

9 94 Q. You say that unknown to you, the trust gave a

10 guarantee; could you just explain that, what

11 happened?

12 A. I was not consulted by Des over this and I did not

13 realise or had no knowledge that the trust had been

14 involved in it and would not have been in a position

15 to have done it anyway because it would have been

16 the trustees.

17 95 Q. At that time were you the person who negotiated the

18 facility with Guinness and Mahon on behalf of the

19 company?

20 A. No, it was Des.

21 96 Q. Well, you sought initially this...(INTERJECTION)?

22 A. I did not think there was going to be a problem

23 about the thing, because he was Managing Director of

24 Guinness Mahon and also on our Board as the

25 Financial Director. I would have thought that under

26 the circumstances, he would have been able to have

27 arranged this without any security because he knew,

28 he was in a very good position to assess it.

29 97 Q. This was at what period, this loan?

 1 A. Again, it is very difficult to recollect. I think

2 it was in the early 1980's.

3 98 Q. You say in your statement that in the late 1970's

4 and early 1980's, the company was in financial

5 difficulties?

6 A. Yes.

7 99 Q. So would you not be surprised that a loan might be

8 given without security in those circumstances?

9 A. The company had -- it was more in the 1980's that

10 the company was experiencing problems.

11 100 Q. But it would have been at the time of this loan?

12 A. Yes.

13 101 Q. Did you...(INTERJECTION)?

14 A. But when I say that it was experiencing

15 difficulties, it did not mean that the assets or the

16 company's financial position could not have taken on

17 board that type of loan.

18 102 Q. Did you see or sign the facility letter from

19 Guinness and Mahon?

20 A. No.

21 103 Q. Who signed it?

22 A. I do not know.

23 104 Q. You left that to Mr. Traynor, is that the case?

24 A. Yes.

25 105 Q. So are you aware of any security having been given

26 for that loan?

27 A. No.

28 106 Q. Leaving aside the security that...

29 A. No, all of that one left entirely to Mr. Traynor,

17
 1 after all he was our Financial Director.

2 107 Q. When did you become aware that in fact the trust

3 funds in Ansbacher Ltd had been used to back this

4 loan?

5 A. I cannot recall when would be the actual date.

6 108 Q. I do not mean the actual date, but how long ago?

7 A. Do you mean how long ago from now?

8 109 Q. Yes. You did not know at the time?

9 A. No.

10 110 Q. Roughly when did you learn this?

11 MR. 0'SHEA: I think it was 1987 or

12 thereabouts?

13 A. Yes.

14 111 Q. MS. MACKEY: Pardon?

15 A. It was about the middle 1980's.

16 112 Q. And how did you become aware?

17 A. Whenever the £30,000 was deducted from the trust

18 fund.

19 113 Q. So did you become aware by seeing on one of your

20 statements that £30,000 had been deducted?

21 A. Yes.

22 114 Q. That was the first that you knew of this?

23 A. That is right.

24 115 Q. So did you make enquiries as to where this £30,000

25 had gone?

26 A. It is difficult to recall exactly how I reacted to

27 that one.

28 116 Q. Did you ask Mr. Traynor perhaps?

29 A. I cannot really recall.

18
 1 117 Q. How did the fact of seeing the £30,000 deduction on

2 your statement give you the knowledge that this had

3 been used to back the loan, how did you learn that?

4 MR. 0'SHEA: If I may speak to

5 Mr. Wilson?

6 A. It was when the actual demise of the company, it was

7 not long after and that therefore it became apparent

8 at that stage that there was a liability there.

9 118 Q. MS. MACKEY: Did you then make

10 enquiries from Mr. Traynor

11 as to how this had come about?

12 A. How do you mean exactly how it had come about?

13 119 Q. Well, you became aware, as you say, at the demise of

14 the company that there was a liability there in

15 respect of Guinness and Mahon?

16 A. Yes.

17 120 Q. This was a surprise to you?

18 A. Yes.

19 121 Q. Because you did not know?

20 A. It was then that Des had indicated that he had in

21 fact used this.

22 122 Q. He told you?

23 A. Yes.

24 123 Q. What did he tell you?

25 A. He said that it was the easiest way in which to

26 effect the security which I had been surprised was

27 necessary in the first place.

28 124 Q. Mr. Wilson, in relation to the funds that formed the

29 basis of the trust, I have to ask you were they

19
 1 funds that had been declared to the Revenue?

2 A. As far as I am aware, the funds were capital

3 distribution from -- or it was a distribution from

4 the Ulster company.

5 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Could I just mention

6 something, Mr. O'Shea; if

7 the witness does not remember, if you could say to

8 me that he does not remember that will be of help

9 and then if he wants assistance from you in memory

10 rather than on a legal point, let me know.

11 MR. O'SHEA: Certainly, yes.

12 125 Q. MS. MACKEY: Maybe I can ask you that

13 question again then,

14 Mr. Wilson?

15 A. The situation is a long time ago and as far as I can

16 recall probably a payment was made by the Ulster

17 company to the establishment of the trust fund by

18 the company.

19 126 Q. And what would be the tax status of that payment?

20 A. I honestly would not know.

21 127 Q. You do not know?

22 A. I left that, again, to Mr. Traynor.

23 128 Q. You have told us that the statements that you got

24 from time to time showed you interest accruing on

25 the trust fund, did you disclose that interest to

26 the Revenue?

27 A. No, I did not.

28 129 Q. In 1993 did you avail of the tax amnesty?

29 A. Sorry?
 1 130 Q. Did you avail of the tax amnesty in 1993.

2 MR. NESBITT: Perhaps I could take

3 some time out on that one?

4 In fact it is probably something I need to talk to

5 the Inspectors about.

6 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: No, it is just purely a

7 question of fact: Did he

8 avail of the tax amnesty? That is all we want.

9 MR. NESBITT: I wonder where it fits

10 into the investigation,

11 that is the only question that I have.

12 MS. MACKEY: Do you wish to talk to

13 your client?

14 MR. NESBITT: Yes, I think we should.

15 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: We will leave it for a

16 moment, we will go on

17 MR. 0'SHEA: May I say that I think the

18 answer really is that he

19 was not tax resident in the country.

20 MS. MACKEY: He was not tax resident?

21 MR. 0'SHEA: That is correct.

22 MS. MACKEY: Do you wish to leave that?

23 MR. NESBITT: Yes.

24 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: You can explain that

25 later.

26 131 Q. MS. MACKEY: We will be taking a break

27 at eleven and you can talk

28 to your client then. Mr. Wilson, do you accept now

29 that in fact this trust was a trust which had

21
 1 deposits with Ansbacher Cayman, the company that we

2 are investigating?

3 A. When it started life off, which is the thing that I

4 always assumed that it was Guinness and Mahon, what

5 subsequently took place was nothing to do with me.

6 132 Q. You thought the trust was with Guinness and Mahon in

7 Ireland?

8 A. Yes -- well, no, what I meant was that as far as

9 Guinness and Mahon was concerned, that they were the

10 agency that had handled the matter from the outset.

11 133 Q. You told me there earlier that when the statements

12 came, they bore the name Guinness Mahon Cayman

13 Trust; so you were familiar with that name?

14 A. Yes, I thought that was an understandable name for

15 the trust.

16 134 Q. Were you aware at that time that your trust was

17 offshore?

18 A. One would obviously have to assume that.

19 135 Q. So I ask you again the question that I asked

20 initially: Do you accept now that your funds were

21 in fact with Ansbacher Ltd, which at that time was

22 called Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust?

23 A. But they were not in the middle 1970's.

24 136 Q. What were not?

25 A. As I understand it, Ansbacher was not involved in

26 the situation.

27 137 Q. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding here. The

28 company that is now called Ansbacher Ltd was at that

29 time called Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust. Do you

22
 1 want to speak to Mr. O'Shea?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Perhaps if we take a break

4 now.

6 SHORT ADJOURNMENT

8 138 Q. MS. MACKEY: I want to clarify the

9 position of the two

10 companies: Robert Wilson Ulster Ltd and Robert

11 Wilson Ireland Ltd, are they two distinct companies?

12 A. In what respect do you mean two distinct companies?

13 139 Q. Well, was there a company Robert Wilson Ulster Ltd

14 which was incorporated by that name?

15 A. Yes, in the UK.

16 140 Q. And then?

17 A. There was a company in Ireland called Robert Wilson

18 and Sons Ireland Ltd.

19 141 Q. And that was the company in the Republic?

20 A. That was the company in the Republic.

21 142 Q. Just to clarify again which company it was that made

22 the payment into the trust, it was Robert Wilson

23 Ulster Ltd?

24 A. It was Robert Wilson Ulster, it was they who created

25 the company trust.

26 143 Q. Did Robert Wilson Ireland Ltd make any payments into

27 the trust?

28 A. No.

29 144 Q. Were both companies liquidated?

23
 1 A. They were.

2 145 Q. At the same time?

3 A. At the same time, yes.

4 146 Q. Earlier I was asking you about the tax amnesty of

5 1993 and I will just repeat the question again now,

6 you may have had a chance to talk to your legal

7 advisors; did you avail of the tax amnesty in 1993?

8 A. No, I did not.

9 147 Q. I don't have any more questions to ask you thank you

10 very much.

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29
 2 COSTELLO

4 148 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: I have a few questions,

5 Mr. Wilson. I want to you

6 take your mind back to the time when the trust was

7 established?

8 A. Yes.

9 149 Q. That was in the 1970's was it?

10 A. It was.

11 150 Q. Were you living in Dublin then or were you living in

12 Ulster?

13 A. I was backwards and forwards.

14 151 Q. You have a house in Killiney?

15 A. I have a house in Killiney and I have a house in the

16 North of Ireland where I have lived most of my life.

17 152 Q. But you were part of the time living in Killiney and

18 part of the time living in Northern Ireland, is that

19 the position?

20 A. Yes.

21 153 Q. Did you have solicitors in the Republic?

22 A. Yes.

23 154 Q. A firm of solicitors advising you personally?

24 A. Yes.

25 155 Q. Who were they?

26 A. They were Kennedy and McGonagle.

27 156 Q. At the time?

28 A. At the time, yes.

29 157 Q. And did you have an accountant dealing with your

25
 1 private affairs in the Republic?

2 A. Yes, Haughey Boland.

3 158 Q. Did you consult either of these professional

4 advisors in relation to the trust?

5 A. I did not feel that it was necessary because of my

6 respect and the standing of Des Traynor, he was an

7 expert.

8 159 Q. So you left all the arrangements in relation to the

9 trust to Mr. Traynor?

10 A. That is right.

11 160 Q. Do you know had he solicitors dealing with it?

12 A. I do not know, I just left the entire thing to him.

13 161 Q. But you had to sign some documents in relation to

14 it, is that right?

15 A. I cannot honestly recall what I signed or did not

16 sign, because it is about 24 years ago, 25 years

17 ago, I do not know.

18 162 Q. Did you see, can you recall, any accountant that

19 Mr. Traynor might have told you about who could

20 explain to you what the trust was?

21 A. No.

22 163 Q. Did you see anybody from the Cayman Islands at all

23 at any time?

24 A. No, I never saw anybody.

25 164 Q. You left it all to Mr. Traynor?

26 A. Yes .

27 165 Q. You must have made arrangements that funds would be

28 transferred, did you? You must have made

29 arrangements with your Ulster company that funds

26
 1 would be transferred?

2 A. It was Mr. Traynor as the Financial Director, as I

3 said, who looked after the actual machinery of the

4 thing.

5 166 Q. But did you tell the Ulster company to transfer

6 funds on the direction of Mr. Traynor?

7 A. Did I tell?

8 167 Q. Did you tell your colleagues in the Ulster company

9 that they were to transfer funds out of the Ulster

10 company on the direction of Mr. Traynor?

11 A. No, I think Mr. Traynor would have arranged, would

12 have seen to that.

13 168 Q. Then you must have agreed with him the amount, was

14 that it, and he then arranged the details?

15 A. Yes.

16 169 Q. Is that the position?

17 A. As far as I recall, that would have been probably

18 what had been done.

19 170 Q. Did you know that it was a discretionary trust?

20 A. I understood it to be a discretionary trust.

21 171 Q. What was your understanding of a discretionary

22 trust?

23 A. What is?

24 172 Q. What was your understanding of a discretionary

25 trust?

26 A. As far as I knew, that your entitlement -- or not

27 entitlement, whether you receive funds or not from a

28 discretionary trust is entirely at the discretion of

29 the trustees. That is how I understood it.

27
 1 173 Q. Is the position then that from then on when you

2 required funds, you would go to Mr. Traynor and

3 he...(INTERJECTION)?

4 A. Yes, I would ask Mr. Traynor to see if the trustees

5 would be prepared to make a distribution.

6 174 Q. And was this ever refused?

7 A. No.

8 175 Q. How often would you contact Mr. Traynor and ask him

9 for a payment, was it a regular matter?

10 A. No, it was not all that regular and it was only

11 about the middle 1980's or around then that I

12 started to request this because of the fact that

13 with the demise of the companies I was, you know,

14 funds were obviously helpful.

15 176 Q. So there was no need to go to Mr. Traynor for funds

16 until the middle 1980's?

17 A. That is right, or I think it was about 1984 or

18 around that, because up to that point I had been in

19 receipt of a salary from the two companies that

20 subsequently went into liquidation. So once that

21 happened, all my earned income arose in the UK.

22 177 Q. Can you remember did you ever go into Mr. Traynor's

23 offices? He was Chairman of Cement Roadstone, did

24 you ever go into his office?

25 A. No.

26 178 Q. You didn't?

27 A. No.

28 179 Q. And you would meet him at meetings of your Board I

29 suppose?
 1 A. I saw him fairly regularly.

2 180 Q. How was that?

3 A. He was a personal friend as well.

4 181 Q. And you would meet him socially would you?

5 A. We would have the odd meal together.

6 182 Q. Would it be on these occasions that you would ask

7 for a payment out to you?

8 A. Probably that would have occurred on occasions.

9 183 Q. Apart from the occasions when you asked for these

10 payments out, accounts were sent to you, you say, of

11 some sort or another?

12 A. Yes.

13 184 Q. Did these come by phone do you remember?

14 A. Phone?

15 185 Q. Sorry, by post or by hand, can you remember?

16 A. As far as I recall they came by post.

17 186 Q. You do not remember them being delivered by hand?

18 A. No, I don't think so, but it is a long time ago.

19 187 Q. Yes, I appreciate that. Ms. Mackey has asked you

20 about these and I am not absolutely clear of the

21 situation; is it that if you went home now, you

22 would you know there are some of them at home, in an

23 office or in a desk or a box or something at home?

24 A. Hmm.

25 188 Q. Do you know that?

26 A. Yes, some of them.

27 189 Q. Some of them are?

28 A. There was a lot destroyed.

29 190 Q. No, do not mind that, if you went home you would

29
 1 find some of them?

2 A. Yes, exactly.

3 191 Q. What we would like is for you to make those

4 available to your solicitor?

5 A. Certainly.

6 192 Q. Who will make them available to us?

7 A. Honestly, no problem.

8 193 Q. Very well. Perhaps just to avoid the need for any

9 further meeting, I just want to hand two documents

10 to you and I will explain to you and your solicitor

11 what they are in a moment. (Same Handed) These in

12 fact are bank statements, Exhibit 2, they are not

13 yours, they are bank statements; I am just wondering

14 can you tell me were the statements that you got

15 from Mr. Traynor similar to those?

16 A. No, they do not...(INTERJECTION).

17 194 Q. They do not look similar do they not?

18 A. No.

19 195 Q. We are all used to bank statements?

20 A. Yes .

21 196 Q. These are what you are used to as bank statements,

22 isn't that right?

23 A. That is right.

24 197 Q. We will see the documents when you produce them, but

25 were the documents that you got similarly like bank

26 statements ?

27 A. They were not like this.

28 198 Q. Very well then. If you just hand those back. (Same

29 Handed) I just want to put two documents to you.

30
 1 (Same Handed) I want you to look at this letter,

2 this is a letter which has come into our possession

3 in the course of our investigations and you will see

4 that it is a letter from Mr. Traynor addressed to

5 Mr. Humphreys in Guinness and Mahon and it is asking

6 him to debit Ansbacher Ltd account with £20,000 and

7 transfer the Irish equivalent to the Ulster Bank to

8 the account of R.W. Wilson and the account number;

9 that is you isn't it, Exhibit 3?

10 A. Yes.

11 199 Q. It is clear from this, I would suggest, that this

12 must have been as a result of a request by you for

13 £20,000, do you remember this?

14 A. Probably, yes.

15 200 Q. Can you remember it or is it too long ago to

16 remember it, the £20,000?

17 A. Well, the point being that the exact amount would

18 be, I mean the actual, I assume that that happened.

19 201 Q. But you cannot remember it?

20 A. In what respect I cannot remember it?

21 202 Q. You cannot remember asking for £20,000 or why you

22 would have needed £20,000 in 1990?

23 A. No.

24 203 Q. It is clear, is it not, that the money which was

25 being transferred to you was being transferred from

26 the Ansbacher Ltd account?

27 A. Yes.

28 204 Q. I want to show you another letter, a similar type of

29 letter of 4th January 1993. Exhibit 4. (Same

31
 1 Handed) sorry, Mr. O'Shea, if there is a legal point

2 if he cannot remember.

3 MR. O'SHEA: Certainly, judge.

4 205 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Do you see there is a

5 letter of 4th January, it

6 is a similar type of letter?

7 A. Yes.

8 206 Q. It is requesting that the equivalent of £10,000?

9 A. Yes.

10 207 Q. That is sterling, credited to the account number and

11 it is given, Mr. Wilson?

12 A. Yes.

13 208 Q. And "debit this sum to Ansbacher Ltd account"?

14 A. Yes.

15 209 Q. Can you remember, this was in January 1993?

16 A. Yes.

17 210 Q. Can you remember the circumstances in which you

18 wished for £10,704 in 1993?

19 A. Yes.

20 211 Q. What was that for?

21 A. What was this for?

22 212 Q. Yes, can you remember?

23 A. Well, the point being will be that these withdrawals

24 were to do with a particular need that I required

25 them.

26 213 Q. That you had at the time?

27 A. Yes.

28 214 Q. So again this is a withdrawal that you had asked

29 Mr. Traynor for?

32
 1 A. I would have asked him to ask the trustees.

2 215 Q. Well, whatever question it was, it was through

3 Mr. Traynor that you were getting the money?

4 A. Yes.

5 216 Q. And again this is a withdrawal from the Ansbacher

6 Ltd account and the number given?

7 A. Yes.

8 217 Q. Mr. Wilson, do you see that that is January 1993?

9 A. Yes.

10 218 Q. So you still had the sums of money that were

11 available to you under this trust under your

12 control, is that not so?

13 A. How do you mean under my control?

14 219 Q. Well, you could get it in January 1993?

15 A. Yes.

16 220 Q. You told us that the trust finished in 1992?

17 A. That, as I understand it, was the last appointment

18 of funds from the trust. And the fact that it is

19 January, 4th January, it is pretty nearly 1992.

20 221 Q. And you think that after that you did not get any

21 further funds?

22 A. That is right. So the point basically was that I

23 was not aware when I said 1992.

24 222 Q. It is early 1993?

25 A. I did not realise that it was as close as that into

26 1993.

27 223 Q. Mr. Wilson, we would require you to produce for us

28 the trust deed, but I understand that you have not

29 got the trust deed, is that correct?

33
 2 224 Q. I must ask you to write to the company in the

3 Caymans and I will give your solicitor the address

4 in the Caymans to write to, to ask for a copy of the

5 trust deed and I take it you will comply with our

6 request in that connection?

7 A. I don't see any reason why not.

8 225 Q. Very well, we will be in touch with your solicitor

9 about it. Very well, Mr. Wilson, that is all that

10 we require from you. The transcript of your

11 evidence will be typed up and we would ask you to

12 come in here to sign the transcript in a few days

13 time.

14

15 THE HEARING WAS CONCLUDED

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

34
 A l / t o u

\V\cxirv^ GxrvvTvol'vJ

N b J^rlV. 3 k O O O
Appendix XV (136) (l)(b)
 TRUST WITH GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST/ANSBACHER

In the 1970's and 1980's I had a business relationship with Des Traynor who was also
afriend and it was through him that the trust was established. I cannot now recall for
certain but I believe that the trust was established by Robert Wilson & Sons (Ulster)
limited as at thattimeI remember mentioning to Des Traynor the trust arrangements
that Shell Oil had for their Senior Executives. A brother-in-law of mine had been
discussing with me the Shell Oil trust arrangements which gave considerable benefits
such as health insurance and care, school fees, etc. to Executives of Shell Oil. I made
the comment to Des Traynor that we should consider doing the same in Robert
•Wilson & Sons and he said he would make arrangements. I wish I could be 100%
certain that the trust was established by Robert Wilson & Sons (Ulster) Limited and
not by me but with the passage of time I cannot be totally certain though I believe the
former to be the case.

I am certain that e trust was established with funds of £40,000from Robert Wilson
& Sons (Ulster) Limited. This company was « aaulj company trading and tax
resident in the Northern Ireland. The trust was managed by Guinness & Mahon
Cayman Trust and I was assured by Des Traynor (and I had no reason to believe the
contrary) that the trust was perfectly legal and that Guinness & Mahon Cayman Trust
were in a position to manage the trust and provide the normal range of services
associated with it.

I know the trust was established in the Cayman Islands, a Sterling area and the funds
in the trust were retained in Sterling. I believe that the trust was a discretionary trust
for the benefit of my family and myself I recall nothing of the workings of the trust
though these may have been explained to me by Des Traynor at the time. I did
receive an annual account which was in essence an unaudited account of a limited
company and I believe that the trust capital was lent to that company which in turn
deposited the funds with a bank. I did obtain a copy of the trust deed but as the trust
ended in 19921 do not have a copy now. I may have some of the annual accounts and
I am continuing to searchfor these. However, as the trust was ended in 1992 there
was no reason for me to keep these accounts.
In late 1970's and early 1980's thefemily company, Robert Wilson Limited was in
financial difficulties. The Ulster Bank were the main Bankers to the company but the
company also had facilities from Guinness & Mahon to whom I had given a personal
guarantee.

Unknown to me the trust gave a guarantee to Guinness & Mahon and in due course
this guarantee was called in. The trust paid a total of £30,000 to Guinness & Mahon.

After my Irish businessfoiled I contacted Des Traynor to see if the trustees would
make appointments to me. They did make appointments to me the details of which I
cannot now recall.
Appendix XV (136) (1) (c)
 — £
Anabagfacr Limited
A Umbtr eftim Entry Ansbacfm HaUbgj PLC Btnkbtg Group

P.O. Bos 817, Grtnd Ctpma, B&fck We» t~%t

Pleasereplyto: / P h o a e :
(«») 949-4653/4
42 FitzwQliam Square, / Tdesc CP 4303
Dublin 2. / Pmr (109) 949-7944
_Z (109) 94M267
Tel: 765144/763065
Far 612035

• JloS^^Sre nber, 1990.

M. David Humphries, Esq., j
Senior Manager - Operations, '
Guinness A Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DUBLIN 2.

Dear David,
Could you please arrange to/debit Ansbacher Limited Account
No. 13154502 wl'-h Stg.E20,n™) and transfer the Irish Pounds
equivalent to
Ulster Bank/Limited,
College Green, ^ - .

D t t b U n 2 , 7
4 &

for credit to the Account of

Mr. R.WL Wilson,
Account No. 10.475077.
Yours sincerely,

J.D. Travnor.

JDT/AJW
Appendix XV (136) (1) (d)
 Ansbacher Limited
Please reply to: P.O. Box 887, Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands, British West Indies
42 FxtzwOliam Square, Telephone: (809) 949-8655 Telex: CP 4305
Dublin 2. Facsimile (809) 949-7946 (809) 949-5267
Tel: 765144/763065
Fax:612035

4th January, 1993.

Ronan Redmond, Esq.,
Corporate Service*,
Irish intercontinental Bank Limited, •
91 Merrlon Square,
DUBLIN 2.

Dear Ronan,
Could you please arrange to tranafer the Irish Pounds
equivalent o. Stg.E10,704.83 to >
Ulster Bank f^
College Green
Dublin 2
for credit to: Account No.104750,77 /
Account Name: Nr. R.N. WlZson.
Please debit the Stg.£10,704.83 to Ansha'cher Limited Account
No.02/01087/81^
It would be appreciated if you c advise when the funds
should reach Ulster Bank so tha inform the Client.^.

Yours sincerely,

0 L
For ANSBACHER
Jj-oo . -» b\< LIMITED

JDT/AJW

AKgkaaerTmjumAcmimtKiAvoHALvmTaMvrore^jaaawmoima
ALSO L0CA1SDW TMt BAHAMAS. niRSK VDKRK ISLANDS.
OUXlVISnr, MONACO AND SWmEUANS
Appendix XV (136) (1) (e)
c*

1
G U N N E S S + M A H O N LTD
Q I ® 17 College QremDufalto 2 PQ Box 56A1MeptaniE 783444
PO'D/JB
20th February, 1978

The Secretary,
Robert Wilton fcSons (Ireland) Ltd.,
46, Pembroke Road,
Dublin 4

Attention t Mr. Dave McDowell

Dear Sire,
Further to recent negotiations, vi have pleasure in confirming that
we are prepared t» o'ice at your •"•petal a facility, subject to the
following terms ami conditions :-
(1) Borrower : Robert Wilson fcSon* (Ireland) Limited.
(2) Amount: £125,000 (one hundred and twentyfivethousand
pounds) - Irish £.

(3) Term : In accordance with normal banking practice, all

sums advanced are repayable on demand bat in any
case not later than the 30th September, 1978.
The funds are being made available by way of Loan.
^ ^ (4) Drawdown Account. We have arranged to open a No. 2 Loan
Account in your name at this office and wish to advice
that the following payments have been debited thereto :
(a) Ulster Pensions Trust £26,220.39
(b) Ulster Pensions Trust £15,000.00
(c) Bowen Mullally Limited £35,000. 00
(d) Cahir Meats Limited £ 9,500.00
(e) N.I. Electrical Service £ 7,738.00
(5) Interest We propose charging interest on the loan at 3% In
excess of Guinneee + Mahon Limited Base Rate,
fluctuating therewith. The present effective rate ia,
therefore, 12% per annum, and we shall advise you in
future of any upward or downward movement in our
Base Rate.

Trfywrw MM M * . T«Ma: no*.

I»wm>»» W—m>: J. tmiim Wwuir CMmm. Mlitu «• OH*n IMimpntl. NM* P. Owl—i.
WwMQQvi nEHB*
MM lull*! OtaMMMt H.W. M o . A,F.I. (Umtn, J.I.A.K. ttylwuM. J.C. tMJw. O.T. OtMMW.
A mmkt at Oatanm M a few*. I m w C J. McCwduo.
Robert Wilson fcSons (Ireland) Ltd. 20th February, 1978

(5) Interest - Interest shall be debited to the loaa account and

(Cont'd) : become payable-by you on, the 31st March,
30th June and at maturity of the loan.
(6) Security : As security for the loan we shall require a
Joint it Several Guarantee completed by
Mr. R. W. Wilson and Mr. R.H. Chambers.
The relative form of guarantee is enclosed for
completion and return.
(7) Liquidity If there shall be any increase in the cost to us
Clause : of malting or maintaining the loan by an amount
which we deem material resulting from any changes
in the reserve or liquidity requirements
to which we may be subjected, then we shall be
entitls* to call for payment of additional interest
of such amount as wo shall certify as the amount
Acquired to <.s.~~.r «•>» increased cost
with effect from the data of notification. You
•hall be at liberty within one month after such
notification and without payment of any pr emlum
or penalty to repay the full amount of the facility
outstanding together with interest at the rate
applying prior to notification.

We are pleased to be of assistance in this matter and enclose a copy of this

letter for signature by your authorieed signatories and return, thereby
confirming your acceptance of the loan on the terme mentioned. We shall
also require a copy of a Board Reeolution authorising the borrowing.

Yours faithfully
for GUINNESS + MAHON LTD.

P. O'Dwyer P.J. Flynn

Loans Officer Banking Manager
 APPENDIX TEN TO EXAMINATION REPORT AS AT 30 APRIL 1978
MAJOR LOANS BACKED BY "DEPOSITS* HELD IN CAYMAN/GUERNSEY TRUST
COMPANIES

Borrgwar OtMora
MApril 1971 Cqvua Cunwgr
i t <

10. Robart Wilson * Sona Ltd. 125,000 125,000

Appendix XV (136) (2) (a)
 KENNEDY MCGONAGLE BALLAGH
INCORPORATING BELL BRANIGAN O ' D O N N E L L & O ' B R I E N

S O L I C I T O R S

20 NORTHUMBERLAND ROAD DUBLIN 4

TEL 660 9799 FAX 660 9434
EMAIL: intb@kmb.ie
www.kmb.ie
The Inspectors of the High Court DX 75 Yourref: C/W05/NSPM
3 rd Floor Our refr MO'S/DF
Trident House
Blackrock
Co Dublin 26 November 2001

Re: Robert W. Wilson

Dear Inspectors,

Our client has received your letter of 16 November and has instructed us to write to you
in connection with your conclusion.

1. Our client does not accept your conclusion that he was a client of Ansbacher.
The evidence before you is that the trust was established not by our client but by
a company incorporated in Northern Ireland in which he was one of a number of
shareholders. The trust was established for the benefit of our client and his
family and it is therefore logical that our client was in receipt of distributions
from the trust. The fact that the trust may have given a guarantee to Guinness
Mahon (Ireland) Limited (which incidentally is not accepted by our client in
relation to the loan mentioned, see below) is not proof that our client was a
client of Ansbacher but rather that the trustees considered it appropriate to give
a guarantee on behalf of a beneficiary of the trust. This is not an unusual power
in trusts.

2. The use of the phrase "his trust" in the fifth paragraph of your preliminary
conclusions is pejorative given that you have, in the third paragraph, accepted
the trust was established by a company for our client's benefit and also for his
family. It seems to our client that you have, in interpreting a set of facts,
ignored the obvious conclusion and instead adopted a perverse and illogical one
the effect of which will be to hold our client out to public ridicule. The
reference to companies in which our client was associated as becoming
insolvent (which is incorrect) confirms our client's views of your preliminary
conclusion.

The following additional comments are made:-

3. It is not correct to say that Robert Wilson & Sons (Ulster) Limited and Robert
Wilson (Ireland) Limited became insolvent in 1983. In relation to the former
company, this was acquired by a company controlled by Mr. Seamus Purcell
and while he sold it so on, the company still trades today. In relation to the
latter company, while it was placed in receivership, it was acquired in a
management buyout, and changed its name at that time. The creditors of both
companies at the time were paid in full.

MICBAIT .1. O'SIIF A R(XiFR P. BAI I ACill li RTNC F. DIXON KFV1N C. BARRY CORDON JUDGF
ASSISTANTS: FIONA HFNRY AGATHA B. TAYLOR
C O N S U L T A N T S : FAURFNCF F. BRANIGAN M A R T I N A L. O ' O O R M A N
COMMISSIONERS F O R OAI1IS / NOTARIKS PUBLIC

"•,.,•* Member ol'ihe Association of Independent European Lawyers.

 The loan of £225,000 from GMI was not backed by a Cayman deposit which
was subsequently used to repay GMI. The following is tendered as proof of
this:-

(a) Robert Wilson Limited wrote to Guinness Mahon on 14 September

concerning this facility, £75,000 of which had, at that date, been repaid
and setting out repayment terms for the balance of the facility. On 31
October 197S Robert Wilson Limited paid a further £25,000 as a second
instalment which sum was acknowledged by Guinness Mahon by letter
dated 2 November 1978, a copy of which is enclosed herewith also.
Subsequently Guinness Mahon provided a further facility to our client in
a letter dated 26 November 1979. It is extremely unlikely that they
would have done so had any funds being outstanding on the earlier
facility. You will note also from this facility letter, enclosed herewith,
that it was unsecured. On 14 April 1980 our client discharged this latter
facility and an acknowledgement to that effect from Guinness Mahon is
sent herewith also.

(b) It seems very clear from the above that paragraph 4 is not correct though
it is acknowledged that our client cannot explain the Central Bank report
furnished by you. It is suggested that this report may reflect an error by
Guinness Mahon in its information to the Central Bank.

(o) It is not correct to say that distributionsfrom the trust were lodged to our
client's Ulster Bank, Dublin Account. Most distributions were in fact
lodged to his account in the Midland Bank in the United Kingdom.

(d) Finally, given the public criticism that is likely to be directed to

Ansbacher clients our client is surprised that you do not state that he has.
since 1985, been tax resident abroad. This was stated by him earlier and
as proof we now enclose a copy of a letter from the Revenue
Commissioners of October 1989.

Please be good enough to let us hearfrom you as soon as possible.

Yours faithfully.

i/^-tm®' i
lennedy McGonagle Ballagh
Appendix XV (137) Wilson Bishop Tolley & Co Pty
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to
Wilson Bishop Tolley & Co Pty.

a) Guinness and Mahon credit committee memo of 10 October 1978.

b) Guinness and Mahon loan decision memo of 22 July 1981.

c) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 27 January 1981.

d) Facsimile of 3 March 1981 - GMCT to Guinness and Mahon.

e) Letter of 2 December 1981 - Guinness and Mahon to Mr RH Tolley.

f) Letter of 7 August 1981 - Guinness and Mahon to GMCT.

 V^I?-

1972$ Wilson Bishop Tolley & Co.

Amount: U.S.$90,000
Purpose: Working capital
Term: 21/6/fr
Rate: 2% over L.I.B.O.R.
Security: Suitably Stewed - "Equitable Mortgage over
property In Australia.
Approved.

1973: V.ilson Bishop Tolley & Cot

Amounh D.M. "?,000

Purpose: Wortdng capital
Rate: 2% over L.I.B.O.R.
Suitably Secured - Equitable Mortgage aver
Security: i property In Australia.
21/6/79.
Term:

Dared ^ ^ i w ^ y -
Appendix XV (137) (1) (b)
 LOAN DECISION MEMORANDUM

FEFLENCE MINUTE N U M B E R DATE 1A--1- ft

CjlQ^Q^ ^iQsuj /f L».

N A M E OF APPLICANT

AMOUNT: u s q Cfc e c O

rs
PU.^OSE : GbpXeO

T E R M fc S O U R C E O F R E P A Y M E N T S : j b & ^ A ^ <*>€ C ^ ^
4 tiafitxjl, L<j<&.

° \
RATE : h-Wh.

C O M M I T M E N T F E E : *JH-

DRAWDOWN :

f ^URITY : L M • ^ ^

( AUA^ Jb+ckd. 6 ' ft* C . T )

\
/"VIEW DATE J1. ^

OTHER RELEVANT COMMENTS FOR

INCt UU'i >RATION IN DECISION M E M O .
(C.>nlinuc<l Ovurlauf) :
Appendix XV (137) (l)(c)
 MEMORANDUM

To: Mr. J. D. Traynor. 27th-January, 1981.

From: Pat O'Dnper.

Wilson Bishop Toll«y,

U.S.I Loan 90,000 0 It par annul)
D.MA__Lgan 150^000 0 5% g$r annum

Funds placed here 6.M.C.T. U.S.$90,000 8 6S per annum

Funds placed here 6.M.C.T. Q.M.150,000 0 41 per annum.

PO'D/SM

r
Appendix XV (137) (l)(d)
 T .T*iF7:
O
&
i 23203 MARS EI •J,
^"4305 GHCT CP
-J:

02 M
3 MARCH 1981 'ux-trtit
6 H OUBLIN • •• v' V
ATT LOANS DEPT
REF WILSON BI8N0P.TOLLEY BACK TOT BACK LOAM

WE HAVE BEEN ADVISED BY MR TOLLEY THAT HE HAS NOT RECEIVED THE LOAN • S
* ia
AGREEMENT FOR 8I6NATURE. I PRESUME THIS REFERS TO A NEW BACK T0..;,:. .
BACK LOAN. IP NOT ALREAOY SENT COULD YOU PLEASE EXPEDITE.
5
-^ii"'*;' !. .
6UINNES8 MAHON CAYNAN TRU8T

23203 HAK8 EI
4309 GMCT CP
E
r • .J «*.,. ^F'^tf.A V, " .

•ir^Miii^V-OiJ-
•r • .>•:• J-;!: - ... > } .:}.?
t -h-sL.
C ^ r - v - X
Appendix XV (137) (1) (e)
 BANKERS C JnM)
^ t;Gr Ref: PO'D/SC 2nd December, 1981.

Hr. R. H. Tolley,'
Managing Director,
Wilson Bishop Tolley 4 Co. Pty. Ltd.,
628-630, Bourke Street,
MELBOURNE,
VICTORIA 3000

Wilson Bishop Tolley & Co. Pty. Ltd.,

J5™il5-?!r9E!rl§t5rY.LlBlted

Dear Mr. Tolley, ^toft ft.

I refer to recent correspondence

eipondu In connection with the above loans.
As the loansare now proving inconvenient to us I shall be obliged 1f you will
( kindly made arrangements/to repay the outstanding liabilities. Sums of
JLJD-M. a03r770;-10 and U.S.fOailJS.OS'will be required to repay the capital suns
plus Interest as at 80th DeeambetvlSBl.'' The amounts In question should be
paid Into our accounts at Deutsche Bank. A.6.. Postfach 2631, D. 6000 Frankfurt
(Main) 1, Account No. 932 6935 and Manufacturers Hanover Trust Company,
International Division, 4 New York Plaza, N.Y. 1100 15 Account No. 544-7-23776
under advice to us. The above figures have been made up as follows:-

Wllson Bishop Tollay & Co. Pty. Ltd. D.M. Loan Coeec
XV**SJhJ <ff w -n n ft»
"Clile 99
Interest to 26th December 40.$74 II IsSSSPSSe-
Wilson Bishop Tolley & Co. Pty. Ltd. U.S.$ Loan P1,6Sli71 1«>j)po
Interest toflfthPeesmber to St'
a - t J M & 4 3
ierT > w"

Jamil a Proprietary Limited O.M. Loan 260,000?00 A^Si^J.VT

Interest to 2Qth-Deeember Ki.m.w
xjM/JMfk- WH7-
Yours sincerely,

Pat O'CwyerT
AIAJl> (Uk w MMMC
i> rim i n MI« *. oiniKii MIMJ Oft, |M|iiMt Oerek &
*r - M A PMIIK
r <MWIII HM I
Appendix XV (137) (1) (f)
 J* * " • •»*

mmm

•f • •• '• m»
•FWIAW.

M G U L M M S
7lh»Ai%uat7198l
AiSjuat7198l 7

1
klf.'U. ShiaM* - • .v?•'»^(T^Cr* w^^r?" 5 *' 1 ^".•r'-v•v--* • ^ •>"j-'.tvwv- j».J>
Guinness Meboa
N MA* . •• «•.•,•= -.. • • "-.'-v.i:*•• • >

P-... . - W M . .....«
WflJOW BISHOP If?liffrftc o fry wbl«-
•ST-

. .. Deer Mike • •»•»»» "An .. ...-^.i • in In i I'lm'iu." * 11 ' i'<»ii«>. I.I.^^.. 'mt iii'm ;
- * • /..*'t-i - —• i '• •*. • Will*.
tf I/.MEer t o i k i ^ S

: in the M M OS J«ttila Property Uoatsd/litsvexsoelved ecbeque.-

requesting Interest debited to the eooount on the SOthjiine, the credit
does not yet .reflect on the eocountV^ Interest Is being aheiged aa the •i. • . ; ••. ••. ••.{.

• ^ 8«Pt«nW.-.:3£s| Deof'^ber^..- Jlst March

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... - D , M . r.40,027tf54Vespec^iviily#:i&.

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uaaaat'Mgarat* -- M ^ t ^ i l i M i t ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ *"••" iWSHMM

Yours •inotraly.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm^m^^~ * * * * * Wi^Njfclifl^ ii jri lvmn.» ,-rn '-'i' -'i'r tiiaa Ml iwiAmw

Jawing M a n a g e :• r ~ < • • . •*:• >;:

•• -n'—i :• • • •.i'iV*^ «*. «»• »VAK-iv; «»tW?* >w^ffitf^yf jnaftffi&• > V . » . . i. . ". • < r

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. . ....

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j '• • • • • ^/•.-V— * *

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. .. —~ f • .. ' "••'if /.'-i . ' " V i t T - ' V r • jV-T*.*

. •.• ,::• . dflrv »¥».>>.

sin*.
Appendix XV (138) Mr Adolf Franz (Burschi) Wojnar
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Adolf Franz (Burschi) Wojnar.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Bernard Wojnar and Mr Christopher Wojnar

dated 17 July 2001.

b) Letter of 18 May 1977 - Guinness and Mahon to MW Wallpaper

Specialists Limited.

c) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of re MW Wallpaper Specialists

Limited.

d) Internal Guinness and Mahon credit memo of 19 September 1978.

e) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo relating to 1978 loan.

f) Internal Guinness and Mahon credit committee memo of 19 January 1977.

g) Internal Guinness and Mahon credit memo of 19 January 1977.

h) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 4 January 1978.

i) Guinness and Mahon list supplied to Central Bank on back-to-back

position as at 30 April 1978.

j) Letter of 24 December 1986 - Mr MJ Pender to Mr BA Ursell.

k) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo dated 1988 re Fletcher & Phillipson.

1) Minutes of MW Wallpaper Specialists Ltd Directors' meeting of 7

October 1980.

m) Letter of 2 September 1980 - Guinness and Mahon to MW Wallpaper

Specialists Limited.

n) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 27 th June 1979.

o) Letter of 30 July 2001 - Mr Jack Stakelum to Inspectors.

p) Extract of letter of 21 February 2001 - Mr Jack Stakelum to Inspectors.

Appendix XV (138) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF BERNARD WOJNAR

AND CHRISTOPHER WOJNAR

UNDER OATH

ON TUESDAY, 17TH JULY 2001

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer
The Inspector: Judge O'Leary

Administrative Officer

to the Inspectors: Mr. Slevin

Interviewees: Mr. Bernard Wojnar

Mr. Christopher Wojnar

Represented by: Ms. Christian Carroll

Orpen Franks

28/30 Burlington Road

Dublin 4
 2 17TH JULY 2001

5 JUDGE O'LEARY: Good afternoon gentlemen

6 and your solicitor, you

7 are very welcome indeed. My name is Sean O'Leary, I

8 am one of inspectors appointed by the High Court to

9 carry out and investigation into the company

10 Ansbacher Limited, which also had another name

11 called Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust and some other

12 names indeed as well.

13

14 We are not carrying out an investigation into the

15 affairs of individuals. You are not under

16 investigation and that is not the purpose of the

17 exercise. We are, however, asked by the High Court

18 to identify who the clients of Ansbacher were and

19 for that purpose and for that purpose only we would

20 like to get whatever evidence we can from your good

21 selves. A lot of the evidence may relate to

22 somebody who is not here, I suspect it is your

23 father, but we will go into that with you later on.

24

25 There are four inspectors but obviously because we

26 are dealing with a large variety of cases not all of

27 them are at every hearing. I am the inspector that

28 will be dealing with any conclusions that may arise

29 with this interview and the others will not be

3
 2 doing that conclusion.

4 It is a very informal procedure except for two

5 matters which are imposed on us, if you like, by

6 legislation. That is the evidence which you give

7 must be under oath and secondly, when the evidence

8 has been reduced to writing by the stenographer, in

9 due course your solicitor will contact the solicitor

10 for the inquiry or vice versa and you will be

11 invited to sign the transcript which is also part of

12 the procedure.

13

14 Unfortunately our solicitor is not here today

15 because an interview is being conducted

16 simultaneously in Wales and she has gone to Wales

17 and myself and Mr. Slevin here, who is an

18 administrative officer, we are holding the fort in

19 respect of the various local matters here.

20

21 I do not know what religion, if any, you have

22 gentlemen, from the point of view of giving you a

23 bible.

24 A. No problem.

25

26

27

28

29

4
 2 WERE EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY JUDGE 0'LEARY

5 1 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Sit down there and you

6 might identify yourselves

7 so that the stenographer will know which is which.

8 MS. CARROLL: I think we have done that,

9 Christopher at the top of

10 the table and Bernard.

11 2 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: How do you pronounce your

12 second name?

13 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Wojnar.

14 3 Q. I can tell you I looked at it very carefully without

15 being able to ascertain precisely how to pronounce

16 it. If I mispronounce it during the course of the

17 interview forgive me. I am sure you are well used

18 to that anyway?

19 A. It would not be the first time.

20 4 Q. Either of you can answer the questions, there is no

21 difficulty as far as I am concerned in that. The

22 purpose of this investigation is to ascertain to

23 what to extent, if at all, the two of you or any

24 other person were clients of Ansbacher and to get an

25 understanding of the system by which Ansbacher

26 worked. That is really what it is about.

27

28 Before going into the details of that could I ask

29 you, there is a gentleman referred to in a lot of

5
 2 will get later on as we are going through them, we

3 have a number of documents, you will get a copy of

4 every document on which we are going to depend.

5 There is gentleman by the name of Burschi.

6 A. Burschi Wojnar.

7 5 Q. Was that your father?

8 A. Yes.

9 6 Q. Did he have another name, Adolf something or other,

10 did he?

11 A. Yes, Adolf Franz Burschi Wojnar.

12 7 Q. Burschi was the name by which he went if you like?

13 A. That's right.

14 8 Q. Because in some correspondence and some documents

15 Adolf was used; do you understand?

16 A. Yes.

17 9 Q. I just wanted it clear, I can take that as being the

18 same person?

19 A. Yes.

20 10 Q. That is very helpful indeed. Is your father alive

21 or dead?

22 A. He died in 1993.

23 11 Q. Was he a good age when he died?

24 A. He was 63.

25 12 Q. He was a relatively young man so when he died in

26 1993. He was in business was he?

27 A. That's correct.

28 13 Q. What business was he in?

29 A. He owned Fletcher Phillipson Limited, it is a

6
 1 retail company which trades as Wigoders.

2 14 Q. As?

3 A. Wigoders.

4 15 Q. Wigoders?

5 A. Yes. Was that the only company he owned or were

6 there other companies he owned.

7 A. I think within the group there was another one

8 M.W. Wallpaper Specialist Limited.

9 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: Priceright.

10 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Priceright Wallpaper

11 Specialist Limited.

12 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: Foxrock Securities

13 Limited.

14 16 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: I will ask you briefly

15 about those. I just want

16 to get a general background?

17 A. Sure.

18 17 Q. Fletcher Phillipson are the Wigoders shops; are

19 they?

20 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Yes, it is main trading

21 company.

22 18 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Main trading company, all

23 right. When was that

24 company formed, is it a long established company?

25 A. It is a long established company, it goes back to

26 one of the -- I think it was one of first companies

27 established in the Free State.

28 19 Q. Seventy or eighty years ago?

29 A. Yes .
 2 A. Fletcher Phillipson Limited, yes.

3 21 Q. Are both of you directors of that company?

4 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: Yes.

5 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Yes.

6 22 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: When did you become

7 directors.

8 A. MS. CARROLL: 1986 I believe.

9 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: Yes, '86.

10 23 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: I am not trying to catch

11 you out?

12 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: No, no, 1986.

13 24 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Your solicitors have

14 informed us that you were

15 directors of Fletcher Phillipson Limited from July

16 1979 to August 1980 and that you then resigned and

17 wend back there on 2nd May '86?

18 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: That's correct?

19 25 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Is that correct?

20 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Yes.

21 26 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: What were the

22 circumstances of that?

23 A. We have been racking our brains as to what the

24 circumstances were we really don't remember.

25 27 Q. All right, anyway that was the reality of the

26 situation?

27 A. Yes.

28 28 Q. What about M.W. Wallpaper Specialists Limited, what

29 about that company?

8
 1 A. When was it formed?

2 29 Q. Yes?

3 A. I think it was formed in around it would have been

4 late ' 7 0 ' s early '80's?

5 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: Yes, was that for the

6 Blanchardstown shop

7 originally?

8 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: I think the first trading

9 branch it had was the

10 unit in Ennis in County Clare. For what reason he

11 formed it I can't...(INTERJECTION).

12 30 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: According to my

13 information it was set up

14 in the April 1977?

15 A. '77, that would be right, yes, late '70's.

16 31 Q. Then there was another company Foxrock Securities?

17 A. Yes .

18 32 Q. When was that set up?

19 A. I don't know when Foxrock Securities was set up. It

20 wasn't a trading company, it was a company that I

21 only became aware of when Dad died in '93.

22 33 Q. I see?

23 A. We didn't have any -- it was not a trading company.

24 34 Q. We will come back to that in due course. Would you

25 tell me who owned these companies, Fletcher &

26 Phillipson first?

27 A. Fletcher &Phillipson is or was then, I think it

28 still is a wholly owned subsidiary of M.W. Wallpaper

29 Specialists Limited.
 2 A. My father was the owner of all the shares or nearly

3 all the shares in M.W. Wallpaper Specialists.

4 36 Q. Was that always the case?

5 A. Was he always the main shareholder in M.W. Wallpaper

6 Specialists?

7 37 Q. Yes?

8 A. Yes, he was, yes.

9 38 Q. I see?

10 A. But he was not always the main shareholder in

11 Fletcher & Phillipson Limited.

12 39 Q. How did that come about?

13 A. Because my mother was part shareholder and he bought

14 her shares off her at some stage.

15 40 Q. They more or less separated and he bought her shares

16 as part of the overall package?

17 A. That's right.

18 41 Q. That seems to be clear from the documents; is that

19 fair?

20 A. Yes.

21 42 Q. Did Fletcher & Phillipson come from your mothers

22 side of the family?

23 A. It did, yes.

24 43 Q. Is your mother still alive?

25 A. She is indeed, yes.

26 44 Q. That is the background. Back in 1977 what age were

27 the two of you in 1977, to put it in its proper

28 context?

29 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: I am 45 now, it is 2001.

10
 2 A. Yes, 24 years ago, so, 21 I was.

3 46 Q. You are now 45; is it?

4 A. Yes.

5 47 Q. And you were?

6 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: 22.

7 48 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: 22?

8 A. Yes.

9 49 Q. Were you working in the business at that stage?

10 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: We would have been, yes.

11 50 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: You were working in the

12 business since you left

13 school?

14 A. Yes.

15 51 Q. Would you have had a position of authority in the

16 firm at that stage?

17 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: No, we would have been in

18 the warehouse I think at

19 that stage or working in the shops on the floor. We

20 had no input into it.

21 52 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: I had figured that was in

22 fact the case?

23 A. Yes.

24 53 Q. Around that time, that company M.W. Wallpaper

25 specialists Ltd borrowed money from G.M.I., Guinness

26 and Mahon; do you know anything about that?

27 A. No.

28 54 Q. Would you have been consulted about it?

29 A. No.

11
 2 pages 49, 50 (Exhibit 1)and 51 (Exhibit 2). What I

3 am going to do while you are looking for those pages

4 I am going to go and get my glasses because I left

5 any glasses outside.

7 Which of you or is it somebody else who was the

8 executor of your late father's estate?

9 A. The executor was Mr. Jack Stekelum.

10 56 Q. I see. Here is a situation at page 49 (Exhibit 1)

11 you can see that a loan was being been sought, had

12 been sought by the company and that was a letter of

13 offer; do you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 57 Q. You can see that in the security that was given, a

16 security for the loan is on page 50,

17
"... we shall require a guarantee
18 completed by Mr. Burschi Wojnar. The
relative form of Guarantee is enclosed
19 for completion and return."

20

21 If you look at the next page (Exhibit 2) you will

22 see that this is an internal document which we have

23 been given by G.M.I., by Guinness and Mahon, that is

24 if you like their working document which gave rise

25 to the letter of offer. You can see that the

26 security is a guarantee to be signed by you father

27 and then other relevant comments "Suitably Secured",

28 do you see that?

29 A. Yes.

12
 1 58 Q. Suitably secured we have been informed by G.M.I, in

2 that context means that somewhere there was a sum of

3 money which was being used to back that facility and

4 that sum of money was external to Ireland. It may

5 have been in the north of Ireland, it may have been

6 in the Channel Islands or it may have been in the

7 Cayman Islands. Do you know anything about that?

8 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: No.

9 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: No.

10 59 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: You could not obviously

11 pass any comment on that

12 because you do not know anything about it?

13 A. No.

14 60 Q. Fair enough. If you look at the next page which is

15 page 52 (Exhibit 3), a copy of which you should have

16 at this stage now. I have excluded from that, there

17 is information on that concerning other people,

18 nothing at all to do with your company you

19 understand, I have blanked that out and I would

20 similarly do the same when they came into us.

21

22 This is a 1978 application and it says; "M. W.

23 Wallpapers Limited, Amount £87,000". This I think

24 was at the time that your father was purchasing your

25 mothers share. "21,804 shares in Fletcher &

26 Phillipson". "For a term of three years" and it

27 goes through the personal guarantee of your father

28 supported by a deposit of the shares.

29
"In addition, this facility is Suitably

13
 2

3 That is very specific. It just does not say

4 suitably secured, it says there is a backing for

5 this somewhere of £37,500; do you know anything

6 about that?

7 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: No.

8 61 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Fair enough. If you look

9 at page 56 (Exhibit 4),

10 this in fact is an internal memo explaining what the

11 deal is about. We will give you copies of these to

12 take away with you, there will be no difficulty

13 about that. It describes your father as being a

14 client of Jack Stakelum and a close personal friend

15 of Harry Lindsay, substantial shareholder in

16 Fletcher & Phillipson and has been for many years

17 and it goes through the various things, shows your

18 mothers shares, his shares and Christopher had a

19 share of 900 at that stage?

20 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Yes.

21 62 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Would that be right would

22 you say?

23 A. That's correct, yes.

24 63 Q. I don't think Bernard had any share at that stage?

25 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: No.

26 64 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Attached is a summary of

27 some financial data for

28 the company and then they go on down and say that

29 Mr. and Mrs. Wojnar are now separated, that is what

14
 2
"B.W. has agreed as part of an overall
3 settlement with his wife to acquire her
shareholding in Fletcher & Phillipson
4 Ltd for the sum of £87,500... . "

6 That is the circumstances. Then it says at the end;

7
"The security to be made available to
8 us would be the personal guarantee from
B.W. who will lodge as security 12,296
9 shares which it holds in Fletcher
Phillipson Limited.
10
In addition the facility will be
11 suitably secured to the extent of
£37,500."
12

13 Do either of you know anything about that?

14 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: No.

15 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: No.

16 65 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: As you appreciate I have

17 to ask you?

18 A. Sure.

19 66 Q. If you don't you don't, I am not pursuing you on the

20 matter, that is the reality.

21 A. Sure.

22 67 Q. Look at page 73 (Exhibit 4). This is another

23 document but it is in respect of a different company

24 it is a slightly different date, an earlier date.

25 In 1977 apparently there was some transferral of

26 residence, whether that has anything to do with your

27 father and mother separating I don't know, because

28 it is a few years earlier than the £87,000 but there

29 was a request for a loan, the purpose of:

15
 1 "To facilitate transfer of residence.
Bridging Finance... £9,000... . A
2 suitably secured situation will exist
in due course."
3

4 In other words what they are saying there is that

5 money will be put on deposit somewhere in due

6 course, it was not there in 1977; do you know

7 anything about that?

8 A. No.

9 68 Q. If you look at page 76 (Exhibit 6) just for the sake

10 of completeness. That in fact is the internal

11 document backing up what I have just shown you, you

12 can see it says down at the end;

13
"A suitably security situation will
14 exist in due course."

15

16 It is precisely the same thing except in a more

17 informal way. Interestingly enough the following

18 year, that was 1977, the following year in 1978 it

19 was renewed for a year, page 77 (Exhibit 7) after a

20 year it was renewed, the £9,000. You can see there

21 where it says "suitably secured", in other words it

22 has gone from a situation where it was to be

23 suitably secured in the future to a situation where

24 it is actually now suitably secured. Presumably

25 some money was put on deposit between 1977 and 1978,

26 which was used to back this loan; do you know

27 anything about that?

28 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: No.

29 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: No.

16
 2 If you look at page 78

3 (Exhibit 8)? I should explain to you -- could you

4 show me page 78 before you give it over if you would

5 not mind Mr. Slevin. Yes, excellent. Page 78,

6 before you look at it because it would not make much

7 sense to you. Could I just show you from a

8 distance, I have a schedule and that schedule has

9 the names of companies and individuals, nothing to

10 do with you at all, therefore, I do not want to show

11 them to you.

12

13 There are lists of balances, some in Cayman and some

14 in Guernsey. Only one of them is relevant to you.

15 While it looks an odd document that is the reason it

16 looks an odd document, because we have taken out the

17 things that are not relevant to you.

18

19 You can see there that somebody in Guinness and

20 Mahon diligently produced a list, I do not see much

21 point in having all this secrecy if they then go and

22 produce a list, but they did, giving us all the

23 information and it shows that there was a deposit in

24 Cayman of £2.4 million, in Guernsey of £1.3 million,

25 of which Foxrock Securities had £9,269.

26

27 That obviously the same suitably secured. That

28 again might be nothing to do with Ansbacher but it

29 is there and it is suitably secured and it is in

17
 1 Guernsey. I will explain the significance of that

2 to you in due course. Do you know anything about

3 that?

4 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: No.

5 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Sorry, no.

6 70 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Fair enough. Here is

7 where the matter becomes

8 relevant to our inquiry because could I explain to

9 you that we are not really interested in any money

10 that was out in Jersey or Guernsey, it is of no

11 relevance to us because we are investigating

12 Ansbacher which was in Cayman.

13

14 For reasons which we do not quite understand money

15 that was in Guernsey and Jersey was in later years

16 routed through the Cayman Islands and Ansbacher.

17 Often without the knowledge or approval of those

18 involved. Do you understand?

19 A. Yes .

20 71 Q. Sometimes people became clients of Ansbacher without

21 them even knowing they were clients of Ansbacher,

22 they thought they were clients of somebody outside

23 in Jersey or Guernsey. Our interest is purely if we

24 can show that it ultimately went through Ansbacher

25 or Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust, as it was called at

26 that time. If you look at page 99 and page 100

27 (Exhibit 9)?

28 A. We just have page 100.

29 72 Q. You only have page 100. Mr. Slevin, I think you

 2 a very important document so I am going to wait

3 until Mr. Slevin copies it.

4 MR. SLEVIN: The top line is it?

5 7 3 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: What I want excluded is

6 the names of people at A

7 and B but leave in the headings A and B.

9 That is in fact a list which is divided into

10 different sections and you will see the sections in

11 due course. It is a letter from a man in Guinness

12 and Mahon to a man in Guinness Mahon & Co. in

13 London. The man in Ireland is a man by the name of

14 Pender, M.J. Pender and the man in London was a man

15 by the name of B.A. Ursell, U-r-s-e-1-1.

16

17 On 24th December 1986, Mr. Pender in Dublin wrote to

18 Mr. Ursell in London and said here are a list of

19 various deposits which we have under various

20 headings. One heading was

21 "As asked I list herewith particulars

of accounts for which we hold banking
22 deposits from G.M.C.T."

23

24 That is Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust or Ansbacher

25 and he lists 20 or 30 accounts there. Then a second

26 heading;

27
"Resident accounts for which we hold
28 deposits from G.M.C.T., duly
hypotheticated."
29

19
 2
"Resident accounts for which we hold a
3 direct deposit from a Cayman company."

5 And fourthly;

6
"College Trustee clients for whom
7 College have arranged backing deposits
here through G.M.C.T."
8

9 So, College Trustees was a company in Guernsey, I

10 think it operated in Jersey too. Basically in

11 Guernsey, who had a connection with Guinness and

12 Mahon and it was that company that directed its

13 funds through Ansbacher.

14

15 One of the company's listed as a College Trustees

16 client for whom College have arranged backing

17 deposits here through G.M.C.T. is Fletcher and

18 Phillipson. You will see that when it comes in.

19

20 Without understanding that it would not mean

21 anything to you at all, we will wait until Mr.

22 Slevin brings in the copies.

23

24 Can I have a quick look at those now, Mr. Slevin.

25 Yes, that is fine. (Same Handed) (Exhibit 9)?

26 MS. CARROLL: There are two documents

27 here.

28 JUDGE 0'LEARY: There are two pages of the

29 one letter really. I am

20
 1 only giving you the first page because it makes no

2 sense with out that. It says;

3
"As requested I list particulars of
4 accounts ..."
c
3
Apparently there were four different categories of
6
7 accounts which he designated as A, B, C, and D.

8 A was a list of people which did not include any of

9 your companies.

10

11 B was a similar list which did not include any of

12 your companies. C was just one company which was

13 not your company and then D was a list of ten

14 different companies, one of which was Fletcher and

15 Phillipson. This is 1986. At that stage both of

16 you were on the board of the company; is that

17 correct.

18 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: Yes.

19 74 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: You had gone on the board

20 of the company on 2nd May

21 1986?

22 A. Yes .

23 75 Q. Do you know anything about that?

24 A. No, I don't anyway.

25 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: No.

26 76 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: You see apparently your

27 company had at that stage

28 borrowed at least to the extent of £53,000 and there

29 was a backing deposit for it. Outside in College

21
 1 Trustees and sent through them through Ansbacher

2 there was £53,000. I find it strange, I can accept

3 it of course in 1977, you were young fellows in 1977

4 but at this stage you are getting to the stage where

5 you are beginning to take obviously a more central

6 role in the business.

7 A. It was fairly late on now before Dad died, or close

8 before he died, that we took any major role in the

9 business in terms of the financial affairs of the

10 company.

11 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: On the financial affairs,

12 dealing with banks or

13 anything like that, we had no input into it really

14 until after Dad died.

15 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: He ran the company. We

16 did what we were told

17 basically.

18 77 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: I can understand that, so,

19 you are saying to me that

20 you know nothing about that.

21 A. I know nothing about that, no.

22 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: No.

23 78 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: All right. We will leave

24 that aside for the moment.

25 Mr. Slevin, will you show the gentlemen, page 110.

26 (Same Handed)(Exhibit 10) this is a 1988 document.

27 The actual date is quite badly written down at the

28 bottom right-hand corner but you can actually see

29 that the review date is 31/3/1989. Obviously it is

 2 you see that?

3 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Yes.

4 7 9 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: In the middle on the

5 right-hand-side and you

6 can see down at the bottom "Credit Committee" and

7 you see 88 there but the precise date is not easily

8 distinguishable?

9 A. Yes.

10 80 Q. This was a borrowing of £100,000 by your company,

11 which was guaranteed by your father. Leaving aside

12 the question of whether it was back to back or

13 anything like that for the moment, do you remember

14 that in 1988 you had £100,000 borrowed?

15 A. 1988? I remember there was loans taken out, that we

16 were borrowing at the time because I think that was

17 around about the time we were buying Longmile Road,

18 was it, 1988?

19 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: It would have been, yes.

20 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: We moved from one premises

21 to another and we were

22 buying I think a freehold premises in Longmile Road.

23 That could be about the time.

24 81 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: That was not the stated

25 purpose of the borrowing

26 if you look at that. I know people do not always

27 tell banks precisely the right reason but the

28 purpose for the drawdown was working capital,

29 payment of invoices?

23
 1 A. Right.

2 82 Q. Importation of wallpaper?

3 A. Yes. What I remember about that was that there was

4 a company who had been acting, I think its name was

5 International Trade Finance.

6 83 Q. Yes?

7 A. They had been acting when there was a purchase made

8 they would pay the supplier and then we would pay

9 them back in a few months.

10 84 Q. I see?

11 A. International Trade Finance got into difficulties or

12 went into liquidation, they lent money in areas that

13 went wrong or went badly for them, that would be my

14 recollection of that type of facility or borrowings,

15 it was to continue that.

16 85 Q. Yes, but you can see that under guarantee of your

17 father, under security, "considered adequate", that

18 is another of these terms that we are told by

19 Guinness and Mahon means that there was money on

20 deposit somewhere. Of course we now know that two

21 years previously there had been money on deposit in

22 College Trustees but through them in the Cayman

23 Islands ?

24 A. Yes .

25 86 Q. Was that £100,000 rolled over for a number of years

26 or was it paid back?

27 A. My memory would be that they paid the supplier and

28 then we had to pay them back. I think it was a 90

29 day or a 120 day limit, it was a short term

24
 2 87 Q. The term of the facility is down here as one year?

3 A. One year was it, yes. I can't remember the detail

4 of it, sorry.

5 88 Q. Who was your banker at that stage?

6 A. I believe our bankers were...

7 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: A.I.B.

8 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Allied Irish Banks.

9 8 9 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: When you borrowed from

10 Guinness and Mahon it was

11 a bit outside your normal banking, there is nothing

12 wrong with that?

13 A. It would be, yes.

14 90 Q. When did you stop borrowing from Guinness and Mahon?

15 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: We have never dealt with

16 Guinness and Mahon anyway.

17 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: No, I have never had any

18 dealings with Guinness and

19 Mahon.

20 91 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Were Guinness and Mahon

21 owed money by the company

22 when your father died?

23 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: No.

24 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: No, I don't believe so.

25 92 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: So it was some time before

26 that?

27 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: It was, yes.

28 93 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: It was some time after

29 1988 and before 1993?

25
 2 94 Q. I wonder could you find out that detail for me.

3 When was the last time he borrowed from Guinness and

4 Mahon?

5 A. Okay.

6 95 Q. And you might also find out how did you pay back

7 that £100,000?

8 A. Sure, all right.

9 96 Q. That may have been the last borrowing?

10 A. Right.

11 97 Q. I do not think we have come across a later borrowing

12 than that. We do not know the bank was paid back,

13 it could have been paid back out of profits, but it

14 also could have been paid back by the back to back

15 facility; do you understand?

16 A. Yes.

17 98 Q. Did you at any time know that there was money

18 abroad, forget for the moment where it was.

19 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: No, definitely not.

20 99 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Did you know there was

21 money in the Channel

22 Islands as I am sure your father probably thought it

23 was?

24 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: No.

25 100 Q. Did you ask Mr. Stakelum about it.

26 A. No.

27 101 Q. Have you ever discussed the matter with Mr.

28 Stakelum?

29 A. We discussed matters with Mr. Stakelum since the

26
 1 first letters in relation to the Moriarty Tribunal

2 came up.

3 102 Q. Have you given evidence at the Moriarty Tribunal?

4 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: We have.

5 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Yes.

6 103 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Along the same lines as

7 what I have given you?

8 A. Along the same lines but obviously there is a lot

9 more detail here. We have not been privy to the

10 documents.

11 104 Q. What happened the money that was out there?

12 A. I couldn't tell you.

13 105 Q. If you can't tell me it would be very hard for me to

14 know. You see, Mr. Stakelum is a man who might be

15 able to give you information. Did you discuss this

16 matter with Mr. Stakelum?

17 A. The matter of...?

18 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: Of these accounts?

19 106 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Yes, of security of the

20 back to back loans?

21 A. No. Because I didn't have this information, I have

22 never seen this before, this is the first time I

23 have seen it.

24 107 Q. The only information we have, hard information, if

25 you like, is the second last thing I showed you,

26 which is a direct statement by Guinness and Mahon

27 that College Trustee had funds which were deposited

28 through G.M.C.T. Nobody in Guinness and Mahon is

29 going to make that statement unless there is some

27
 2 be tribunals and inquiries like this 10 or 15 years

3 later. We can take it it was their best shot,

4 whatever it was?

5 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Yes.

6 108 Q. Did you get any money from an unexpected source when

7 you father died.

8 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: No.

9 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: No.

10 109 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Did anyone tap you on the

11 shoulder and say "By the

12 way I have £50,000 that really was your fathers and

13 here is £25,000 each for you?

14 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: No.

15 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: No.

16 110 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Did anyone suggest to you

17 that there might possibly

18 be such money?

19 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: No, no one did.

20 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: No.

21 111 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Who was your father's

22 financial advisor?

23 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: Jack.

24 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: I would say Mr. Stakelum

25 was, yes.

26 112 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: I think you should seek to

27 increase your information

28 from Mr. Stakelum for the purpose of giving

29 information to me, what you do with it is your own

28
 2 that I have I probably could come to a conclusion

3 that your father was a client of Ansbacher, based on

4 that information. I have to satisfy myself whether

5 either of you were as well and until I know what

6 happened the money I will have to keep digging?

7 A. Sure.

8 113 Q. That is my problem. I actually do not want to dig

9 any more, I am quite happy if I could be sure that

10 was it. At the moment I am left in a situation

11 where somebody in Guinness and Mahon said that there

12 was cover for a £53,000 in 1986 and apparently there

13 was still cover there in 1988 because of the

14 considered adequate note in 1988.

15

16 We know the '86 one, that is very definite in the

17 sense that somebody does not pull a figure like that

18 out of the blue and we know that in 1988 there was a

19 loan or a considered adequate basis. I really have

20 to try to find out who got the money, maybe it was

21 your mother?

22 A. No.

23 114 Q. Do you know whether your father ever had a trust in

24 the Channel Islands?

25 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: No.

26 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: No.

27 115 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: You didn't know it or you

28 don't know it now?

29 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: Didn't know it.

29
 1 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: We didn't know it.

2 116 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Do you know it now?

3 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: No.

4 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: No, we still don't know

5 it.

6 117 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Can you see my problem?

7 A. I can appreciate where you are coming from but I

8 can't give you any more information. Dad ran the

9 business. We didn't get involved in the affairs.

10 118 Q. What I am looking for now is I am looking for an

11 explanation as to what happened the money after

12 1986. If the money was just taken out by somebody

13 that would not make them a client of Ansbacher but

14 if the account was operated that would make them a

15 client?

16 A. We weren't beneficiaries of any money.

17 119 Q. I wonder would you investigate the matter and come

18 back to me, in writing I am talking about, there is

19 no need to come back and give evidence, through your

20 solicitor?

21 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: Certainly.

22 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: All right.

23 120 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: Do you understand the

24 point I am making now that

25 in 1986 Mr. Pender, who was not a foolish man, makes

26 a very specific reference, he just does not put down

27 considered adequate and I know that Mr. Stakelum

28 from time to time thinks that people put down

29 considered adequate for other reasons, but this is

30
 1 actually very specific. He says there is a list

2 there and there is backing deposits for it in

3 G.M.C.T. I just want to know whose deposit it was

4 and what happened to it.

6 Maybe I can assume they were your fathers deposits,

7 if there is not another explanation because who else

8 would be giving that kind of security. I am left

9 unsatisfied with regard to what happened

10 subsequently. I am only interested in what happened

11 them subsequently, I want to make that clear,

12 gentlemen, to find out is there anybody else a

13 client of Ansbacher, I have no interest in what

14 happened to the money, that has nothing to do with

15 me, if people spent the money so be it, that is

16 nothing to do with me.

17

18 I am not involved in a tax investigation, that is

19 not my purpose but I do want to satisfy myself that

20 if your father was a client of Ansbacher that it

21 ended there and there was nobody else a client of

22 Ansbacher because I am asked by the Court to make

23 that list; do you understand?

24 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: Yes.

25 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Yes.

26 121 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: There is just one other

27 matter that I want to

28 bring to your attention and it is page 61 (Exhibit

29 11). Page 59 and 60 (Exhibit 12) as well. Do you

 2 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: I can't remember that

3 loan, no.

4 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: No.

5 122 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: If you look at page 61

6 (Exhibit 11) you will see

7 that you were at the board of directors meeting that

8 sanctioned it?

9 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: That's right we were

10 there.

11 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Yes.

12 123 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: And you do not remember

13 it?

14 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: I don't remember it, no.

15 124 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Is Mr. Stakelum still on

16 the board of your company?

17 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: He is indeed, yes.

18 125 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: I wonder would you

19 investigate the matters

20 with him?

21 Do you know a Mr. Joe

22 Seely?

23 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Yes.

24 126 Q. Who is he?

25 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: He was working for or with

26 Mr. Stakelum in his

27 company. He was a secretary if I am correct.

28 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Yes. He was a bookkeeper

29 working with Business

32
 2 127 Q. JUDGE 0'LEARY: I wonder would you take

3 that, it is an unnumbered

4 sheet because I only discovered it after the numbers

5 had been put on. Does Mr. Seely still work with Mr.

6 Stakelum (Exhibit 13)?

7 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: No.

8 128 Q. I wonder could you find out about that for us? This

9 is an internal G.M.I, memorandum.

10
"M.W. Wallpaper Specialists.
11 Would you please transfer a sum of
£56,000 out of "E" special and place
12 the funds on a separate account at
Guinness & Mahon Base Rate. We are
13 charging interest on the loan at Base
Rate of 3%. Please value the entry
14 15th June, 1979.
15 Above instructions received by Joe
Seely by phone."
16

17 That would appear to us to be the creation of the

18 special back to back facility at that time.

19 "E" special, apparently there was an account

20 "E" Special, that may have been a Guinness Mahon

21 Cayman Trust account and £56,000 was to be taken out

22 of that and put in a separate account. It may well

23 have not been in the name of M. W. Wallpaper

24 Specialists or in the name of somebody else, it

25 could well be College Trustees RE: Guinness Mahon

26 Cayman Trust. Will you check the record as to

27 whether you ever had £56,000 on deposit?

28 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Yes.

29 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: Yes.

33
 2 through your solicitor?

3 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: We will of course.

4 130 Q. You might also inquire from Mr. Stakelum what is the

5 meaning of that?

6 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: Right.

7 131 Q. JUDGE O'LEARY: Now, gentlemen, all I will

8 say to you is thank you

9 very much for your cooperation, you are under an

10 obligation to cooperate and you have so far

11 fulfilled that obligation, I have no complaint about

12 it at all but you are also under an obligation to

13 give us such further information as we require and

14 we do require that additional information?

15 A. MR. C. WOJNAR: Very good.

16 A. MR. B. WOJNAR: Thank you.

17 MS. CARROLL: Thank you. When might we

18 get the transcript.

19 JUDGE O'LEARY: The transcript will be

20 available in a week or so,

21 it will be available for signature, a copy of it

22 will cost £60 because that is outside our control.

23 That can be arranged with Ms. Cummins, do you know

24 Ms. Cummins.

25 MS. CARROLL: No.

26 JUDGE O'LEARY: Ms. Mary Cummins, ring her

27 here rather that Mr.

28 Slevin, she will be back tomorrow.

29 MS. CARROLL: Certainly.

34
 2 that for you. I will need

3 the answers to the questions that I have given you

4 because we are coming to the end of our

5 investigation.

6 MS. CARROLL: Certainly. Thank you.

9 THE INTERVIEW THEN CONCLUDED

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

35
VACX.^ GJ-NVJNoLNX
Appendix XV (138) (1) (b)
" \ j f l w r -r i. •
JANKERS 17 Collage Gr«an Dublin 2 P.CLBo8c55A.T«ephcnec 782444

Oar Eef: PO'D/AC 18th May 1977.

The S e c r e t a r y ,
M. W. Wallpaper S p e c i a l i s t s Limited,
17, Clyde Bead,
Ballsbridge,
DTJBLIK 4 .

Dear S i r ,
F o i l owing r e c e n t d i s c u s s i o n s , v e w r i t e t o confirm t h a t we
are prepared t o make a v a i l a b l e t o you a f a c i l i t y , s u b j e c t t o
t h e f o l l o w i n g terms and c o n d i t i o n s :

(1) Borrower: If. W. Wallpaper S p e c i a l i s t s

Limited.
(2) Amount: glO.nnn no fTen Thousand. Pounds) -
I r i s h fi.

(3) Purpose: The funds a r e - t o b e u t i l i s e d b y

you i n t h e form o f working c a p i t a l .
(4) Term; I n accordance w i t h normal banking
p r a c t i c e , a l l funds advanced a r e
repayable on demand, but i n any
•case not l a t e r than 3 1 s t .Kay 1978.
(5) Drawdown: The f a c i l i t y i s t o be taken up i n
t h e form of a Loan.Account i n your
name on completion of t h e n e c e s s a r y
documentation. .
(6) Interest: Ve propose charging I n t e r e s t on t h e
f a c i l i t y a t 15£%'per annum f i x e d .
I n t e r e s t s h a l l be- d e b i t e d t o t h e
.account, and become payable by you
-on t h e 30th June, 3 0 t h September,
3 1 s t December and 3 1 s t March
annually and at maturity of t h e
Loan. Ve s h a l l apply t o you
Immediately a f t e r t h e aforementioned
d a t e s for payment of i n t e r e s t .
Continued...
Tlynm*: Man. CkiM*. Nam DM.
Cftafaium John H. AAmim.
Kt&antt Humb*i: KtttZ faMHlM Dirtctwi: J. 0<«MAd Tnynot (Gtputy Quitman). Mturin t OXtif. (Mtnaglng), Rabbi 0. Cbphira.
A m*mb*ref th* QUIR/HU Qtoup. 2l!!»bmSMo)«(w«ii H.W. IvMht, A.M.OuCmmm.JJLM.fliilniM**J.C. Lov« J«r, O.T. O'Cxww.
S*crMuyi SMU CJ. McCndun.
 h M . W. ffallpaper S p e c i a l i s t s Limited. 18th May'1977
G
p.
i-i Security: Aa s e c u r i t y for the Loan, ve s h a l l
r e q u i r e a Guarantee completed by
Mr. Burschi Wojnar, t h e r e l a t i v e
Form of Guarantee i s e n c l o s e d
for completion and return'.
(8) Liquidity I f t h e r e s h a l l be any I n c r e a s e i n
Clause: t h e c o s t t o us of making o r '
maintaining 'the' Loan b y an amount
which v e deem m a t e r i a l r e s u l t i n g '
from any changes i n t h e r e s e r v e
or l i q u i d i t y requirements t o v h l c h
v e may be s u b j e c t e d , then v e s h a l l
be e h t l t l e d t o c a l l for payment of
a d d i t i o n a l i n t e r e s t of s u c h amount
a s v e s h a l l c e r t i f y a s - t h e amount
required t o compensate f o r such
Increased c o s t v l t h e f f e c t from •
' t h e d a t e of n o t i f i c a t i o n . , You
s h a l l be a t l i b e r t y v i t h i n one
month a f t e r such n o t i f i c a t i o n and
... without, payment of any premium or
p e n a l t y t o repay the f u l l amount of
t h e f a c i l i t y outstanding t o g e t h e r
v l t h i n t e r e s t a t the r a t e a p p l y i n g
prior t o notification.
Ve are p l e a s e d t o be of a s s i s t a n c e t o you i n . t h i s m a t t e r •
-. and e n c l o s e h e r e v l t h a copy of t h i s f a c i l i t y l e t t e r f o r s i g n a t u r e
by your a u t h o r i s e d s i g n a t o r i e s and return,' thereby confirming
your a c c e p t a n c e o f t h e f a c i l i t y on t h e terms mentioned. Ye s h a l l
a l s o r e q u i r e a Board R e s o l u t i o n a u t h o r i s i n g the borrowing. When
returning' t h e aforementioned documents t o u s , v.e s h a l l be o b l i g e d
i f you w i l l k i n d l y l e t us- have a copy of .your Memorandum and
A r t i c l e s of A s s o c i a t i o n t o g e t h e r w i t h a copy of your C e r t i f i c a t e
. o f I n c o r p o r a t i o n . A mandate Form c o v e r i n g - t h e o p e r a t i o n of a
\Banking Account i s e n c l o s e d for completion and r e t u r n .

Tours f a i t h f u l l y ,
f o r GUnMBSS + MAHON LIMITED •

P. J. Flynn,
Banking manager.
Appendix XV (138) (1) (c)
 9?SggE|3SSEE=SE
i-Jiv'xJi:

OF APPLICANT: M . k}. Ufal f<l\\*t JfJLUQjk* fj Lc^feX

>URPOSE:

JGRM: & SOURCE OF REPAYMENTS:

ATE: • * ••

• * •
TMENT F E E : ' * < •
• •

IAVDOWN:

CUPJ u
« • • >( . ? » , ."•»"*•""•. •• • •, t "• • ,
• • *. ' ' . • — '

• .. • » I • '

•••. • *

IER RELEVANT COMMENTS FOR

• < •
CORPORATION IN DECISION MEMQ: . . j <f
itinued Overleaf) *f ;

AUTHORISED
Appendix XV (138) (1) (d)
 AppfOVtda

Amount: £87,000
Purposes To purchot* 21*804 Show In Fletcher & Phillipson;
United,
Tame 3 years
RapeynMwfe «wuM ba mod" monthly In the turn of £1,500
par worthfar tha first three years aid at tha and of tfvaa yean
the account would be reviewed.
h -
Rat* 3 % ewer bete quarterly.

Security: ^ The security to be mode available to us would be;~

21,000 Shares In Fleteher i Phillipson United
Personal Guarantee of Burschl Wojner, En supported by the
deposit of 12,296 shores In Fletcher & Phillipson which he holds.
Krs addition, this facility Is Suitably Secured to the extent of
£37,500 •

signed—

Dated \
 He: B u r s c h i Wojnar,
^ M.W. Wallpaper S p e c i a l i s t s L i m i t e d ,
Fletcher & P h i l l i p s o n Limited.
.-ti

Burschi Wojnar CB.W.) i s a C l i e n t o f Jack Stakelum and a c l o s e

p e r s o n a l f r i e n d o f Harry Lindsay. He i s a s u b s t a n t i a l
s h a r e h o l d e r i n F l e t c h e r fc P h i l l i p s o n Limited ( E a t a i l Wallpaper
Merchants) and h a s been for many y e a r s . The i s s u e d c a p i t a l
o f t h e Company i s 3 5 , 0 0 0 Ordinary Shares o f £ 1 each and they
are h e l d as follows:
«

Mrs. D.V. Wojnar 21,804

B u r s c h i Wojnar 12,296
C h r i s t o p h e r Wojnar (Son) 900
35,000

Attached h e r e t o i s a summary o f some f i n a n c i a l d a t a for t h e

Company.-
A v a l u a t i o n o f t h e f r e e h o l d a n d ' l e a s e h o l d p r o p e r t i e s was c a r r i e d
o u t by Sherry & Sons i n November 1977 and t h i s v a l u a t i o n put a
f i g u r e o f £ 2 6 , 0 0 0 on t h e l e a s e h o l d p r o p e r t i e s and £ 1 1 0 , 0 0 0 on.
t h e f r e e h o l d prope: -y. • A . I . B . have a mortgage on Capel S t r e e t
ptnwirmrt i m £80.000.

B.W..and h i s w i f e a r e now s e p a r a t e d .
In April* 1977' a new Company was Incorporated c a l l e d M.W.' Wallpaper
S p e c i a l i s t s L i m i t e d , which a l s o c a r r i e s o u t H e t a l l Wallpaper .
Merchanting b u s i n e s s and B.W. i s Managing D i r e d t o r o f both
Companies. The d r a f t Accounts for the t e n months t o 3 1 s t Hay
o f M.W. Wallpaper S p e c i a l i s t s ' Limited show t h a t on a turnover o f
£ 8 5 , 8 3 6 .a n e t p r o f i t o f £ 2 7 , 0 9 7 was earned. The Company, .
which has l e a s e s o f two r e t a i l o u t l e t s a t Ennis' and
Blanchardstown, c o n t i n u e s t o t r a d e very* w e l l .
B.W. h a s a g r e e d a s p a r t o f an o v e r a l l s e t t l e m e n t w i t h h i s w i f e -
t o a c q u i r e her s h a r e h o l d i n g i n F l e t c h e r & P h i l l i p s o n Limited for
t h e sum o f £ 8 7 , 5 0 0 and i t i s h i s i n t e n t i o n t h a t t h i s s h a r e h o l d i n g
be a c q u i r e d by M.W. Wallpaper S p e c i a l i s t s Limited. We have
been asked t o make a v a i l a b l e t h e f i n a n c e .
The p r o p o s a l t o u s i s a s f o l l o w s :
Sua Required: £87,500.
Period: 3 Tears.
Repayment: Repayments would be made monthly i n the sum
o f £ 1 , 5 0 0 per month for the f i r s t t h r e e ' y e a r s
and a t t h e end o f t h r e e y e a r s the account
would be reviewed.
Interest: I n t e r e s t would be paid q u a r t e r l y .
Security: The s e c u r i t y t o be made a v a i l a b l e t o us would
. be the p e r s o n a l guarantee from B.W. who w i l l
l o d g e a s c o l l a t e r a l 12,296 s h a r e s which he '
• n.. - .
Appendix XV (138) (1) (f)
 ik.

Faxrock Securities Limited:

Amount: £9,000
Purpott Tofacilitate Jronsfe/- of residence. "Bridging Finance".
Term; Repaymentfrom funds to be made available end of March, 1977.
Rate: 3% over Base
Drawdown: By way of loan as endwhen required.
Security; -?~amntoa of Mr. Wafoar* A suitably secured situation wf 11 exkt In
mJs course.
Review: di/l/1978.
R<w(hihsp<M«
Appendix XV (138) (1) (g)
 ~ W A N DECISION, M E M O R A N D U M

• •

A-A\£HJENCE: MINUTE NUMBER: • DATE:

•.A* •

A M E O F APPLICANT:

tfOUNT

JKPOSE: X

^^M.fc. SOURCE OF; REPAYMENTS:'

, * JVUiilAU. ; y .

J) ,/

>MMITMENT FEE:

AliTDOWN:

CU2UTY: ^tA/fr-^&k-

i,
#
I*
• v, .
.» •"*
*• ••
> W**

•• • IV «
• ••

• i * • ••

lETV D A T E : ' f-
• • •

'ER
fcR RELEVANT COMMENTS FOR ' \ (WfJrr j '' V\ .
<*PORATION IN DECISION MEMO: & ^ ^ t p ' \
- s W d Overleaf) ^ Jfoc-o^ .. A ^ ' v f ^ f ^ <V\

AUTHORISED
Appendix XV (138) (1) (h)
 n

y-N
Y|l|7J>
6£&t Foxrock Securities limited - EXTENSION:

. Amount: £9,000

Puntpose: Purchase of flat

i
T«m»:
Extensionfar period oFoimi year to 31/1/79
Rate:
12% fixed
Drawdown:
Already taken up by way of loan
Securlty
Guarantee of Burschi Wojnor
"SUITABLY W i rem-
Recoranended.
5ft • "
670:
Appendix XV (138) (1)0)
 6UHMES5 * WHOM LIMITED

APPEHfllX 10

HMOK LOWS BACKED BY DEPOSITS' HELP" » QWHH/OUEJMSEY nnwy CQH>JWHr<

Lon.'Jalfnea Outstanding
it 30tarnM7S . mposlf Wshoma
cmww 6uera»«y
•I *

17. Foxrock StcurlttM Ltd. l,«9

8*002.000 Z.401.0H 1,317,894

jfcyy**
Ttm bank holds additional security Inraspwtof aaay of tha abov* loans.
 M.J.P.'to RA. Ursell 24th December, 19*6

Brace :
Aa requested I list hereunder particulars of the Account* for which we hold becking
deposits from OMCT z

a) . Noa Resident Accounts • f which ere .Included in the full set-zeff

' category for Central Bank Returns : -

Resident Accounts for which we hold deposits from GMCT duly hypothecated
 c) Resident Account for which we hold deposit direct from
V which Is a Cayman Company : -

4) Collage Trustee clients for whom College have arranged backing

deposits here through G.M.C.T. : -
• • •

J f Fletcher <i PMlipton Sj.XM.aO Scg.

With reference to you will also

have similar loans and security on your own books for significant amounts.

Regards,

Michael J. Pender
Appendix XV (138) (1) (k)
 asfca

CracMt Mamarindum
NAME: FLETCHER A PWLUFSON Submitted by; PQ'D
AOORa&efo 17, Clyde Road, BaJlabridgo, Dublin 4. Iqulty Staleat No.
6USMBW CJ. Approvals Yn/No
ParmlnloM Obtatnad
OCCUPATION: Wallpaper Distributors Dam FCB25atmitiad
THIS APPLICATION: N«
xs
TYPfi: hSKi,*- AMOUNT: jStlAlWlflflfl.. IMTE:.~i2&» FBB: __NU.
/Margin 2%) _

FURPOSKARAWtXMN:
pvvvilttMi prior
Working ca^tsl - pvaent of Involi 4BHI|MIM Of MUldjf?
nportst'm of wi»:~iif -r.
YB/NO

TSUMOPPAOUTMSt RSVISW DATE®

« 7' 3l.03.rass
founca or JWAVMum
Cash flow from business.
SECURITY: IfadUtlonalaM
MRtVi b Mcurity In miJ> 7
Guarantee or Buradil Wojnar. YOS/WU •
(ComMerad adequate).
If Na, #*adH*fli Mnraltlv.'

SACXaiKXJNONOTB/
/ ' OUTLBM OC PROPOSAL: Stg. £131,000 advanced November, HUM and renewed August, I9SS - fully repaid.
1(00,000 advanced during January, 1887ftillyrepaid No outstanding liabilities at present.
Immediate requirement is ScfJt20,000 In payment of Invoice* bald Our put experience vltb the
borrower* baa bam excellent.
Balance Sheet 91st December 1982 ahowc Turnover £3,123,000
Profit arter Tax 40,000
Shareholder* Funds 338,000
. facility recommended

Rdalarf PaaMtiM/Bcarowam CHiDITCOMMITTIS

(Bihmea or Umlt, whtchavar )a gmtar)
MlnuU. . Data..V'f

» RMOinnMndad
BOARD
Toul Sxpotur*: £ J ] 3,000 MlnuU- 0*1*..

Nmi 1 hllM
Appendix XV (138) (1) (1)
 »

M. W. WALLPAPER SPECIALISTS LIMITED

JtLnutea of a Meeting of Directors held at 17. Clyde Road, Dublin if,

on the 7th October, 1980 at 3.00 p.m.

PRESENT: Burschi Wojnar (In the Chair)

1
Christopher Wajnar
Bernard Wojnar
GTHNNESfl t MAHOK FACILITO:

It vaa rep.OTed:

'•That it facility in the sum of £5k,5QQ (Titty Toyr thousand,

Five Hundred Pounds) - Irish £, be accepted from
Guinness & Mahon Liaited on the conditions aet out in
»

their letter of the 2nd September, 1980, to the Conpany

and that Mr. Burschi Wojnar be fad is hereby .authorised
to accept the.facility on behalf of the Company".
•
t •. •
GUARANTEE:

It was noted that Security for the foregoing facility

would be in the fora of personal guarantee completed by
Mr. Burschi Wojnar.

SIGNED:

DAEED: <*c> •
 G+M GUINNESS+MAHON LTD
17
BANKERS Colleg» Groan Dublin2 P.O. BoxSBATal: 716844(17 Unas)
Our Ref: lO'D/SM .. 2 n d September, 1980.

She S e c r e t a r y ,
M. W. W a l l p a p e r S p e c i a l i s t s L i m i t e d ,
c/o,. Business Enterprises Limited,
1 7 , Clyde Road,•
Ballabridge,
DUBLIN 4.

Bear S i r ,

F u r t h e r t o r e c e n t d i s c u s s i o n s , we confirm t h a t we a r e .
p r e p a r e d t o ey.be. x y o u r l o a n f a c i l i t y s u b j e c t t o t h e f o l l o w i n g
+-e?nrn« conditionas- . .

Borrower: M. W. Wallpaper S p e c i a l i s t s l i m i t e d .

Amount: . £ 5 4 , 5 0 0 . 0 0 ( F i f t y Four Thousand, F i v e Hundred

Pounds) - I r i s h £ .

Purpose: S h e funds a r e b e i n g made a v a i l a b l e t o y o u i n t h e .

form o f working c a p i t a l .
Term: I n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h normal banking p r a c t i c e a l l sums
t a k e n u p a r e r e p a y a b l e on demand b u t i n a n y c a s e
n o t l a t e r than 3 0 t h September, 1 9 8 1 .

Drawdown: She funds have a l r e a d y been t a k e n u p i n t h e form

o f a Loan Account i n your name.

Repayment: You u n d e r t a k e t o e f f e c t monthly r e d u c t i o n s of

£1,500.00.
h
Internet: .We p r o p o s e c h a r g i n g i n t e r e s t on t h e l o a n a t 3% i n
e x c e s s o f Guinness + Mahon L i m i t e d ' s Base Rate
f l u c t u a t i n g t h e r e w i t h . The p r e s e n t e f f e c t i v e r a t e
' i s t h e r e f o r e 23% per-annum and we s h a l l a d v i s e you
o f any change i n our Base R a t a . I n t e r e s t w i l l be"
d e b i t e d t o your Loan Account on t h e u s u a l q u a r t e r l y
dates.
 Security: As s e c u r i t y for t h e l o a n we s h a l l r e t a i n a
Guarantee completed by Burschi Wojnar, supported
by a d e p o s i t o f 3 4 , 1 0 0 s h a r e s i n F l e t c h e r &
P h i l l i p s o n Limited.

Liquidity I f t h e r e s h a l l he any i n c r e a s e i n t h e c o s t t o u s o f
Clause: making or m a i n t a i n i n g the. l o a n b y an amount which
we deem m a t e r i a l r e s u l t i n g from any changes i n t h e
r e s e r v e o r l i q u i d i t y requirements t o which we may •
h e s u b j e c t e d , then we s h a l l h e e n t i t l e d t o c a l l
f o r payment o f a d d i t i o n a l i n t e r e s t o f such amount
a s we s h a l l c e r t i f y a s t h e amount r e q u i r e d t o
compensate f o r such increased' c o s t w i t h e f f e c t from
t h e d a t e o f n o t i f i c a t i o n . • You s h a l l h e a t l i b e r t y
w i t h i n one month a f t e r such n o t i f i c a t i o n and
w i t h o u t .payment o f any premium o r p e n a l t y t o repay
t h e f u l l amount o f the f a c i l i t y o u t s t a n d i n g t o g e t h e r
w i t h i n t e r e s t a t the rate applying p r i o r t o
notification.

r»«d cu.e j^louded t o c o n t i n u e ' moaJl**^ uLuL^ . f a c i l i t y a v a i l a b l e im

you and e n c l o s e h e r e w i t h a copy o f t h i s f a c i l i t y l e t t e r fdr s i g n a t u r e
by your a u t h o r i s e d s i g n a t o r i e s and r e t u r n thereby c o n f i r m i n g your •
a c c e p t a n c e o f t h e l o a n on t h e terms mentioned.

We s h a l l a l s o r e q u i r e a Board R e s o l u t i o n a u t h o r i s i n g t h e
borrowing.

Yours f a i t h f u l l y ,
for GUINNESS + MAHON LIMITED.

P . O'Dwyer,
Banking Manager.

T. R. Leonard,
Banking Manager.
Appendix XV (138) (1) (n)
 \

HEM 0 EANDJJH

To: Mlaa Sinead O'Brien, 27th JUne, 1979.

from: P. O'Dwyer.

X..T. Wallpaper SpeciaUata

Would you please transfer a sua of £96fOOO out of "S" Special

and place the funds on a separate account at Guinness + Mahon
Baae Bate. We are charging Interest on the loan at Baae Bate + 3%
Pleaae value date the entry 19th JUne, 1979.
Above Instructions received from Joe Seely by phone.

PO'D/Slf
 JOHN J. STAKELUM
"Fairmont"
Ballyronan Road
Kilpedder, Co. Wicklow.

30 July 2001. i && i»i!r

The High Court Inspectors,

3"1 Floor,
Trident House,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.

Dear Inspectors,

Irefer to Schedule I enclosed withrayletter to you dated 21 February 2001.

In recent days, T. • >ugh Orpen Franks and Company, I became aware of information that
inHiVntes to me the nanr* of another c!'"nt * w "VmiM included in Schedule 1 as
follows:

Name: Mr. Burschi Wojnar - deceased May 1993.

Offshore Deposits: Yes.

BacktoBack Loan: Yes.

Date Deposit Opened. Circa 1978.

Date Deposit Closed. Circa 1987.

Source of Funds Offshore. Unknown but probably ofl&hore.

Yours faithfully,
Appendix XV (138) (1) (p)
 JOHN J. STAKELUM
"Fairmont"
BaUyronan Road,
Kilpedder, Co. Wicklow.

21 February 2001.

The High Court Inspectors, g J

3 r t Floor, j ,
Trident House, /
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.

Re: Interviews with the Iaspectow oo 8/11/2000 and 6/12/2000.

Dear Inspectors,
5. The information requestedby Ms. Mackey oa the ( December 2000.

The information requested by Mis. Mackey on 6 December '2000 is given in the three schedules
that are appended to this letter.

Schedule 1 relates to the list of names I sent to the Inspectors on 6 November 2000. All on this
schedule had offshore deposits in G&M throughrayprocedure.

Yours sincerely,
Appendix XV (139) Mr Richard Wood
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Richard Wood.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Richard Wood dated 21 March 2000.

b) Letter of 16 March 2000 - Mr Richard Wood to the Inspectors.

c) Letter and statement of affairs of 16 March 1977 - GMCT to Mr Richard

Wood.

d) Letter of 28 January 1976 - GMCT to Guinness and Mahon.

2. Correspondence received from Mr Richard Wood.

a) Letter of 3 December 2001 - Mr Richard Wood to Inspectors.

Appendix XV (139) (1) (a)
PRIVATE EXAMINATION OF MR. RICHARD WOOD

UNDER OATH

ON TUESDAY, 21ST MARCH 2000

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer
The Inspectors: MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

MR. ROWAN FCA

MS. MACKEY BL

Solicitor to the Inspectors MS. M. CUMMINS

Interviewee: MR. RICHARD WOOD

WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE

MR. R. WOOD MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 5 - 5 9

MR. ROWAN 60 - 62

MS. MACKEY 63 - 69

MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO 70 - 73

2 21ST MARCH 2000

4 MR. WOOD: I take it all the files

5 arrived, did they?

6 MS. CUMMINS: They did.

7 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: They did. Mr. Wood, my

8 name is Declan Costello

9 and on my right is Ms. Mackey and on my left

10 is Mr. Rowan. We are the Inspectors.

11 MR. WOOD: Yes.

12 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Who have been appointed,

13 you know, by The High

14 Court.

15 MR. WOOD: Yes.

16 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: This interview is one that

17 is under oath and I will

18 ask now our solicitor, Ms. Cummins, to administer

19 the oath to you.

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

4
 2 FOLLOWS BY MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

4 1 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Wood, we received your

5 statement and the files

6 but unfortunately we did not get them -- our

7 solicitor managed to obtain them on Saturday morning

8 -- until yesterday morning?

9 A. Yes.

10 2 Q. We have not had an opportunity to peruse them?

11 A. Yes.

12 3 Q. Unfortunately it may be necessary to ask you to come

13 back when we have done that?

14 A. Yes, I can imagine, yes.

15 4 Q. However, we will try to make as much progress as we

16 can today in the absence of our knowledge of what is

17 in the documents and so I am going to have to ask

18 you for a great deal more information than you have

19 given in your written statement?

20 A. Yes.

21 5 Q. I would be glad if you would be as detailed as you

22 can in relation to matters with which we are

23 concerned?

24 A. Yes.

25 6 Q. I think the best way to carry out our task this

26 morning is if we go through your statement of

27 the 16th March (Exhibit 1). Have you got that?

28 A. Yes.

29 7 Q. Have you got a copy of it there?

5
 2 8 Q. Yes?

3 A. Yes, I have (Same Handed). Yes, thanks.

4 9 Q. Mr. Wood, at the beginning of it you refer to the

5 company there, of which your father apparently was

6 the owner of the shares, is that right?

7 A. Sorry now, which company do you mean?

8 10 Q. What company are you referring to there in the

9 second paragraph?

10 A. The second paragraph?

11 11 Q. Beginning with your father's death. "He and three

12 friends," were directors of my father's company,

13 what company is that?

14 A. That is a company called John A. Wood Limited

15 in Cork.

16 12 Q. John A. Wood Limited?

17 A. Yes.

18 13 Q. Yes?

19 A. It is now part of CRH.

20 14 Q. Yes. You refer then to the relationship between

21 your father and these other gentlemen, that you have

22 referred to?

23 A. That is right.

24 15 Q. That was in John A. Wood Limited?

25 A. Well, sorry, only Mr. O'Connor was connected with

26 John A. Wood Limited.

27 16 Q. Yes?

28 A. Mr. Malachy Walsh was a friend. He was

29 Mr. O'Connor's brother in-law and Mr. Fred Thompson

6
 1 was another friend. He was a banker in Cork.

2 17 Q. I am just wondering what the relevance of this is to

3 our inquiry, what in John A. Wood Limited is of

4 relevance to our inquiry?

5 A. The only relevance is to pinpoint the relationship

6 between my father and Mr. O'Connor.

7 18 Q. Mr. O'Connor, I see?

8 A. And subsequently the relationship between myself and

9 Mr. O'Connor.

10 19 Q. I see, yes. Very well?

11 A. Yes .

12 20 Q. You say that Mr. Maurice 0'Kelly was a colleague of

13 Mr. O'Connor's in Guinness & Mahon and it was in a

14 managerial capacity. Does that mean that he was

15 acting as a managerial capacity in this company,

16 John A. Wood Limited?

17 A. No, no, sorry, no. He was asked to act in a

18 managerial capacity for the development companies

19 which were being operated by these individuals.

20 21 Q. What was your involvement, your own personal

21 involvement, in this company?

22 A. At the time or before my father's death?

23 22 Q. Yes?

24 A. Or subsequently?

25 23 Q. Yes, before?

26 A. Before, very slight. I merely sat in on meetings

27 and would have -- might have had -- would have sat

28 in on informal discussions with

29 these...(INTERJECTION).
 2 A. No.

3 25 Q. Were you on the board of Directors of the company?

4 A. No.

5 26 Q. What was your occupation then and since Mr. Wood?

6 A. I was an employee of John A. Wood Limited at that

7 time.

8 27 Q. An employee?

9 A. Yes.

10 28 Q. What was your employment?

11 A. I ... (INTERJECTION) .

12 29 Q. What were you?

13 A. I was an assistant to my father.

14 30 Q. Yes, but what was your title? What was your -- just

15 an assistant to your father?

16 A. I am not quite sure...(INTERJECTION).

17 31 Q. On the managerial side?

18 A. Yes, I am not sure that I had a title.

19 32 Q. Yes?

20 A. Em...(INTERJECTION).

21 33 Q. You were an assistant?

22 A. Yes.

23 34 Q. To your father?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 35 Q. You were carrying on the business with your father?

26 A. Of John A. Wood Limited.

27 36 Q. Of John A. Wood Limited, yes?

28 A. Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say I was carrying

29 it on because I was relatively new to the company

8
 2 people there to do that.

3 37 Q. What was the business the company was carrying on?

4 A. It is a stone business.

5 38 Q. Yes?

6 A. It extracts sand, gravel and rock.

7 39 Q. Yes?

8 A. And makes concrete products.

9 40 Q. Yes. This became your full-time employment, did it?

10 A. It became my main employment.

11 41 Q. Yes?

12 A. But we also have a farm at home.

13 42 Q. Yes?

14 A. Which I look after.

15 43 Q. Yes. Will you come to the answers to the questions?

16 Before I come to that Mr. Wood can I refer you to

17 the letter to which yours is a reply? It is the

18 20th January letter. It is the long letter (Exhibit

19 2) ?

20 A. Yes.

21 44 Q. That we have written to you?

22 A. Can I have a copy of that (Same Handed). (Exhibit

23 2) Thank you.

24 45 Q. Can I refer you to Appendix C of that long letter?

25 A. Yes.

26 46 Q. Do you see at the very beginning of this Appendix C:

27 "You should provide a full and detailed

statement of all the dealings with
28 which the company had with you either
directly of indirectly."
29

9
 2 47 Q. Is that what you are doing in this statement?

3 A. That is what I am attempting to do.

4 48 Q. Yes?

5 A. Now, the company there being...(INTERJECTION).

6 4 9 Q. "Ansbacher"?

7 A. "Ansbacher", yes.

8 50 Q. Which we call "Ansbacher"?

9 A. Yes.

10 51 Q. Which was then known as Guinness Mahon Cayman

11 Limited?

12 A. That is right, yes.

13 52 Q. Yes?

14 A. Yes.

15 53 Q. You are attempting to tell us the dealings you had

16 with what we now call "Ansbacher"?

17 A. That is right, yes, yes.

18 54 Q. Would you go over the page to the paragraph that is

19 headed "Cayman Islands Trust and Trust Companies",

20 paragraph number 1?

21 A. Yes.

22 55 Q.
"If you cause to be executed a Deed Of
23 Trust or other instrument in the Cayman
Islands or elsewhere whereby the
24 company or some other person associated
with. . .READING INTO THE WORDS ... trustee
25 or manage the trust for you..."
26

27 Did you cause a Deed Of Trust to be established?

28 A. I certainly didn't. Whether it is was done or not I

29 can't really tell you. As I said my involvement

10
 1 with the establishment of these companies was fairly

2 minimal because they were established, I think all

3 of them were established, before my father's death.

4 56 Q. Yes?

5 A. Possibly not "Thrush".

6 57 Q. Yes?

7 A. But of the three which have their base in the Cayman

8 I don't think I was involved in the creation of

9 those.

10 58 Q. Yes?

11 A. I don't think I was.

12 59 Q. Did you make enquiries about this matter? After

13 you got this letter did you make enquiries?

14 A. I wrote -- well, I have written to Guinness & Mahon

15 for information about these and I haven't yet

16 received a full reply. I merely got an

17 acknowledgment from them.

18 60 Q. When did you write to them?

19 A. Now, my letter to them was somewhat delayed because

20 of the confusion between myself and my auditor about

21 the preparation of this letter. When I got your

22 letter I passed it on to my auditor.

23 61 Q. Who is that?

24 A. That is Deloitte & Touche in Cork.

25 62 Q. Yes?

26 A. And the preparation of a letter was put in train.

27 63 Q. Yes?

28 A. It was only fairly recently I discovered that they

29 were preparing a letter for The Inspector Of Taxes

 2 64 Q. Yes?

3 A. And so I had to get the files back from them and

4 then prepare the letter myself.

5 65 Q. Yes?

6 A. For you.

7 66 Q. Have you sent a letter?

8 A. I beg your pardon?

9 67 Q. Have you sent the letter?

10 A. Sent the letter?

11 68 Q. Have you sent a letter to Guinness & Mahon?

12 A. Yes.

13 69 Q. When was that?

14 A. On the 7th March.

15 70 Q. Can you let us have a copy of that letter?

16 A. Yes, certainly.

17 71 Q. Yes?

18 A. Do you want it now?

19 72 Q. Not now?

20 A. Yes.

21 73 Q. We will have to get it later?

22 A. Yes. Do you want me to read it out?

23 74 Q. No, I do not?

24 A. Okay.

25 75 Q. Yes. Were you aware whether or not Mr. Don Reid was

26 involved in the establishment of these companies?

27 A. No, I wasn't, no.

28 76 Q. Were you aware that Stokes Kennedy Crowley were

29 involved in any way?

12
 2 the establishment of those companies.

3 77 Q. Yes. However, about the trusts that were

4 established?

5 A. I know nothing about the trusts.

6 78 Q. Do you know was there any trust ever established?

7 A. All I know is that the proceeds of these companies

8 were handled by Hexagon Securities and Whitethorne

9 No. 7 Trust.

10 79 Q. Yes?

11 A. In the Cayman.

12 80 Q. Yes?

13 A. Now, what lies behind those companies or how they

14 are set up or how they were set up or by whom, I

15 have no notion.

16 81 Q. Who received the funds from the company, from the

17 profits that were made by these trusts?

18 A. Em...(INTERJECTION).

19 82 Q. Did you?

20 A. The profits made by these trusts?

21 83 Q. No, no, the profits that were distributed by the

22 trusts?

23 A. By the trust in the Cayman that returned to Ireland.

24 84 Q. Yes?

25 A. Or the profits made in Ireland that went to the

26 Cayman.

27 85 Q. Both?

28 A. Both.

29 86 Q. Yes?

13
 1 A. The profits made in Ireland that went to the Cayman

2 were apparently handled by Hexagon Securities and

3 Whitethorne No. 7 Trust.

4 87 Q. Yes?

5 A. Now, that money eventually returned to Ireland.

6 88 Q. Yes, I know. Who were the beneficiaries?

7 A. And the beneficiaries were Thrush Securities

8 and Youghal Development Company.

9 89 Q. What about yourself? Did you get any money from

10 them?

11 A. No, I got nothing from them.

12 90 Q. Nothing at all?

13 A. Nothing personally, no.

14 91 Q. No, not personally but your company, any company

15 that you were interested in?

16 A. Those two companies got the proceeds.

17 92 Q. Were you interested in those companies?

18 A. Yes, at that stage I was a shareholder in those.

19 93 Q. Yes?

20 A. I mean I was...(INTERJECTION).

21 94 Q. I think you know Mr. Wood exactly what I am trying

22 to find out. I am trying to find out, we are trying

23 to find out, whether you got any beneficial interest

24 from these elaborate arrangements, and did you?

25 A. The money came back to these companies. Youghal

26 Development Company made no money at all and that

27 was merely -- I think it merely made up Youghal

28 Development losses. That is what happened with the

29 money that came to "Youghal". The money that came

2 and "Thrush" eventually did make a profit.

3 95 Q. What was your interest in Thrush?

4 A. I was 70% shareholder.

5 96 Q. You got 70% of whatever came?

6 A. Well, in fact, I didn't because of my involvement

7 with Bula Limited. What happened was that a second

8 mortgage was put on Portobello House, that is the

9 property that "Thrush" was developing and the

10 surplus was taken by the bank.

11 97 Q. Yes?

12 A. In satisfaction of that second mortgage when

13 "Thrush" was -- when the Portobello was sold and

14 "Thrush" was wound up.

15 98 Q. Yes?

16 A. So, that is what happened to the cash in the end.

17 99 Q. The cash came to a company in which you were

18 a 70% shareholder?

19 A. Yes, that is right.

20 100 Q. And eventually then because of various financial

21 problems that arose you were not able to avail of

22 the cash?

23 A. That is right, yes.

24 101 Q. Very well?

25 A. Yes, yes.

26 102 Q. Now we will go into it in more detail. Would you

27 turn over the page:

28 "Apart from my personal advisers, we

used the services of Management and
29 Investment Services Ltd., to do
secretarial work for some of the

15
 2

3 Is that Mr. Field-Corbett?

4 A. Yes.

5 103 Q. His company?

6 A. That is right, yes.

7 104 Q. Yes. What do you mean by

8 "...we used the services of Management

and Investment Services Ltd."
9

10 What does that mean?

11 A. We, being the group that were involved.

12 105 Q. Yes?

13 A. Initially my father, Mr. O'Connor and

14 Mr. Malachy Walsh and Mr. Fred Thompson.

15 106 Q. Yes?

16 A. And subsequently I was substituted for my father.

17 107 Q. In what?

18 A. In this group that ran these companies. That

19 created...(INTERJECTION).

20 108 Q. No, tell me what they were? How were you involved

21 in this group? What group are we talking about?

22 A. The group of people are...(INTERJECTION)?

23 109 Q. No, no, we are talking about companies now?

24 A. The companies, yes. Well, the companies are listed

25 on the last page of -- sorry, they are listed at

26 number 8, on the third page of my letter.

27 110 Q. Youghal Development?

28 A. That is right.

29 111 Q. All right. Did you become a shareholder in Youghal

16
 2 A. On the death of my father, yes.

3 112 Q. What shares did you hold in the company?

4 A. I think the way these companies were set up was that

5 my father was the primary, the sole, shareholder.

6 113 Q. Yes?

7 A. With an understanding that if profits arose they

8 would be distributed.

9 114 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?

10 A. In the proportions that I have mentioned.

11 115 Q. I am just concerned about the shares?

12 A. Yes.

13 116 Q. He was the full shareholder?

14 A. Yes.

15 117 Q. Of all the shares issued?

16 A. Yes.

17 118 Q. Did you inherit these from him?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 119 Q. You became the full shareholder. The owner of all

20 the shares?

21 A. That is right, yes. I stood in his shoes.

22 120 Q. I am sorry?

23 A. I stood in his shoes at the time of his death.

24 121 Q. Sorry?

25 A. I stood in his shoes.

26 122 Q. He made a will, did he? Did he make a will and give

27 it to you?

28 A. Yes.

29 123 Q. A will?

17
 2 124 Q. What happened Copenhagen Investment Co. Ltd.?

3 A. Well, that one I am afraid I had completely

4 forgotten about and I can only find those two

5 references which I mentioned in my letter there

6 just below.

7 125 Q. When was it incorporated?

8 A. It would have been I think in 1974. So, that was

9 after my father's death.

10 126 Q. Just a moment now?

11 A. Yes, sorry.

12 127 Q. Just take it slowly?

13 A. Yes.

14 128 Q. Were you a shareholder in Copenhagen Investments?

15 A. Well, on the basis of the information to hand I can

16 only presume that I was. When I say that I don't

17 have, you know, a share certificate or anything like

18 that but the company was established in the same way

19 as the previous ones had been.

20 129 Q. No, but your father was dead now?

21 A. Yes, he was dead. That is right, yes.

22 130 Q. What was the investment in Boreenmanna Road?

23 A. I can't remember what it was. I think it was a very

24 small development on Boreenmanna Road. I think

25 possibly connected or on the site of

26 Mr. Malachy Walsh's offices, which were there.

27 131 Q. Yes?

28 A. Yes.

29 132 Q. Was this a development of the property?

18
 2 133 Q. By this company Copenhagen Investment Co. Ltd.?

3 A. That is right, yes, yes.

4 134 Q. Who was your solicitor in those days?

5 A. My personal solicitor was Mr. Jack Nagle and still

6 is.

7 135 Q. Mr. Nagle?

8 A. Yes.

9 136 Q. Was Mr. Nagle acting in the establishment of

10 Copenhagen Investments?

11 A. I can't recall I must say. I don't know.

12 137 Q. Who else could have been?

13 A. I don't know who else it might have been.

14 138 Q. Why have you put these companies here? Why are we

15 concerned today with Copenhagen Investments?

16 A. Because it has a Cayman connection.

17 139 Q. That is what I want you to tell me about?

18 A. I put that in because the other note in the file,

19 which I have come across, indicates that Copenhagen

20 made a surplus and that the surplus was transferred

21 to the Cayman.

22 140 Q. However, tell me -- you keep saying "The Cayman" be

23 a bit more specific Mr. Wood?

24 A. Well, it was transferred.

25 141 Q. To who?

26 A. To...(INTERJECTION).

27 142 Q. To what body?

28 A. Well, either to Hexagon or to the Whitethorne

29 No. 7 Trust, sorry.

19
 2 information to us is that the profits made by

3 Copenhagen went to Hexagon or to Whitethorne?

4 A. Or to Whitethorne, yes.

5 144 Q. Do you know which?

6 A. No, I have no idea.

7 145 Q. Yes. Why have you no idea?

8 A. Well, I am unaware of how this was handled in

9 the Cayman.

10 146 Q. No, we can go into that later. When you say you are

11 unaware how it was handled in the Cayman, where did

12 it go to from Copenhagen?

13 A. All I know is that it went to the Cayman.

14 147 Q. However, when you say that, do you not know what

15 entity it went to?

16 A. I am afraid I don't.

17 148 Q. Could you find out?

18 A. Hopefully Guinness & Mahon may be able to help

19 there.

20 149 Q. Why Guinness & Mahon? What interest had they got in

21 Copenhagen Investment Company?

22 A. I presume that they were bankers

23 to...(INTERJECTION).

24 150 Q. No, no. Why do you presume? Do you not know? This

25 was a development that you were involved in?

26 A. Yes, yes, I am afraid it -- I mean I have forgotten

27 most of the details connected with this.

28 151 Q. However, this is very important because we have to

29 ascertain exactly what happened in relation to the

20
 2 funds to the Cayman and transferred to trusts, which

3 we will come to in a moment?

4 A. Yes.

5 152 Q. How could you find out for us? Who were the

6 auditors and accountants?

7 A. Of Copenhagen?

8 153 Q. Of Copenhagen?

9 A. There again I am afraid I don't know.

10 154 Q. And your solicitor was Mr. Nagle?

11 A. Yes, I am not -- I can't be sure that he was

12 involved though.

13 155 Q. You have looked, you have seen, some documents quite

14 recently apparently of a transfer of funds, have

15 you?

16 A. No, the only documents I have seen are the ones that

17 I mentioned here in this paragraph.

18 156 Q. How do you know there was a transfer of funds?

19 A. Because the document says so.

20 157 Q. What sum was involved?

21 A. £7,500.

22 158 Q. £7,500, yes?

23 A. Yes.

24 159 Q. Have we got a copy of that document?

25 A. Yes, yes, you have.

26 160 Q. There is note, hand written, dated 28th October?

27 A. Yes, and it is flagged in the file.

28 161 Q. Yes, very well. Doing the best you can, who do you

29 think the money would have gone to?

21
 2 162 Q. Directly to them?

3 A. Now, I doubt if it went directly to them

4 because...(INTERJECTION).

5 163 Q. Why do you doubt that?

6 A. Well, because I don't think I ever sent directly. I

7 think if it went it went through -- its route would

8 have been presumably through Guinness & Mahon.

9 164 Q. Now explain that to me?

10 A. Guinness & Mahon was the entity that organised the

11 arrangements in the Cayman.

12 165 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?

13 A. And I had no direct dealings with the Cayman apart

14 from a few letters.

15 166 Q. Be a bit more specific. Guinness & Mahon was the

16 entity?

17 A. Yes.

18 167 Q. What do you mean by that?

19 A. Well, it was a body that made these arrangements.

20 168 Q. That is what I want to understand?

21 A. Yes.

22 169 Q. They...(INTERJECTION)?

23 A. And...(INTERJECTION).

24 170 Q. Guinness & Mahon made the financial arrangements by

25 which money was transferred by Copenhagen to the

26 Cayman Islands?

27 A. That is right, yes.

28 171 Q. Who were you dealing with in Guinness & Mahon?

29 A. Primarily with Mr. O'Connor.

22
 2 A. Now, what is his involvement in this I simply can't

3 remember.

4 173 Q. Did you discuss it with Mr. O'Connor? You must have

5 discussed it with him?

6 A. I presume I did.

7 174 Q. Yes?

8 A. I presume I did. I really can't recollect this at

9 all.

10 175 Q. You recollect that it was Guinness & Mahon that was

11 involved?

12 A. Yes, I do, yes, yes. I mean that was the

13 only route.

14 176 Q. If Guinness & Mahon were bankers were they lending

15 you, lending Copenhagen Investment, money?

16 A. Again I can't recollect what the financial

17 arrangements were for Copenhagen.

18 177 Q. What do you think?

19 A. It may not have because it was -- I don't know but

20 they may not have because it was a relatively small

21 matter.

22 178 Q. Yes?

23 A. A small development.

24 179 Q. Yes?

25 A. It is quite possible that that was done through

26 personal funds or something like that.

27 180 Q. I see?

28 A. But if banking was required, and I suppose it is

29 more likely that banking was required, then I assume

23
 2 arranged through Guinness & Mahon.

3 181 Q. Let us take Youghal Developments then?

4 A. Yes.

5 182 Q. Is that a bigger development then?

6 A. It was certainly much much longer. Yes, it was

7 bigger, yes.

8 183 Q. When was it established?

9 A. I think that must have been in the late 1960's.

10 184 Q. Yes?

11 A. Yes.

12 185 Q. You then became the owner of the shares?

13 A. That is right, yes.

14 186 Q. Yes. Just give me some idea of the extent of the

15 development? Was it in hundreds of thousands? Was

16 it in millions? What was it?

17 A. It is... (INTERJECTION) .

18 187 Q. In Youghal?

19 A. In Youghal.

20 188 Q. Yes?

21 A. It certainly wasn't millions.

22 189 Q. Yes?

23 A. There is no question of that. It was more like tens

24 of thousands.

25 190 Q. Yes?

26 A. It may have reached £100,000.

27 191 Q. Yes, what was it?

28 A. Again I am afraid.

29 192 Q. What was it?

24
 2 193 Q. What it was?

3 A. It was a harbour property or series of properties

4 which were being assembled with a view to building a

5 hotel there and it came to nothing because the

6 market in Youghal never materialised really, the

7 tourism market there never materialise, and also I

8 think there was a certain amount of difficulty with

9 title to some of the property.

10 194 Q. What happened?

11 A. The lots, the various lots, were sold without

12 development.

13 195 Q. Yes?

14 A. After a number of years.

15 196 Q. Was Guinness & Mahon your bankers?

16 A. I can only presume that they were.

17 197 Q. They were -- they had -- this had a connection with

18 Cayman Islands, Youghal development?

19 A. Yes.

20 198 Q. Yes?

21 A. Yes.

22 199 Q. You presume they were?

23 A. Yes.

24 200 Q. Do you know whether the company had borrowed funds

25 from Guinness & Mahon?

26 A. I can't say definitely.

27 201 Q. Yes?

28 A. There again I imagine if funds had to be raised they

29 would have been raised with Guinness & Mahon.

25
 2 A. And hopefully this will become clearer when we get

3 documentation from Guinness & Mahon.

4 203 Q. Have you written to them for this?

5 A. Yes, I have.

6 204 Q. Can you recollect what security was given to

7 Guinness & Mahon?

8 A. For Youghal?

9 205 Q. Yes?

10 A. Again I have to presume that the property itself

11 formed part of the security.

12 206 Q. This is a presumption now?

13 A. It is.

14 207 Q. Just can you remember?

15 A. No, I can't remember clearly I am afraid.

16 208 Q. Did you know that the company that they had

17 established as part of this arrangement was in fact

18 entitled, or you were entitled as a beneficiary of

19 the company, to draw funds on the deposit in

20 Guinness & Mahon?

21 A. I have only heard that in the press.

22 209 Q. You did not know at the time?

23 A. I must say that I have come across in the file a

24 reference to backing which I don't understand.

25 210 Q. Yes?

26 A. And I think it is on the second page of my letter.

27 Yes, it is at paragraph two at the bottom.

28 211 Q. Do you understand now what it is?

29 A. I still don't understand this note because I am not

26
 2 212 Q. No, no, it is not the note. It is the concept of

3 backing?

4 A. The concept of backing I understand that now, yes.

5 213 Q. Surely you knew that?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 214 Q. As a businessman, you did not know that?

8 A. No, I didn't know...(INTERJECTION).

9 215 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?

10 A. I didn't know that that facility was available and

11 if I ... (INTERJECTION) .

12 216 Q. You did not know that the facility was available by

13 which a deposit that was held in Guinness & Mahon

14 could be used for a loan?

15 A. That is right.

16 217 Q. Yes?

17 A. The deposit held in the Cayman, is that not so.

18 218 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?

19 A. Is that the way it worked.

20 219 Q. I will come to your knowledge of it in greater

21 detail in a moment, Mr. Wood. We will just continue

22 here. Youghal Development Co. Ltd., was part of

23 this arrangement that Guinness & Mahon had

24 established. Copenhagen Investments was part of the

25 arrangement. What about Sandpiper Holdings?

26 A. That was likewise.

27 220 Q. Just tell me about "Sandpiper"? When was it

28 established?

29 A. It was before my father's death. I don't know what

27
 1 the date was.

2 221 Q. Where was it registered?

3 A. Sorry?

4 222 Q. Where was the company registered?

5 A. I don't know.

6 223 Q. Did you become entitled to the shares on his death?

7 A. Yes .

8 224 Q. All of them?

9 A. Yes .

10 225 Q. You see Mr. Wood we have obtained information

11 elsewhere that Mr. Crampton apparently was involved

12 in a company called Sandpiper Holdings?

13 A. Yes, there was a link there between Mr. O'Connor and

14 the Crampton Company because when Mr. O'Connor left

15 John A. Wood Limited in Cork, he was involved in the

16 building trade, in fact before he came to us and in

17 fact many years ago he was a builder himself.

18 226 Q. Yes?

19 A. Then he came to us and then when he left us he

20 joined Cramptons in Dublin and after he left -- then

21 he went from Cramptons to Guinness & Mahon and some

22 of these companies had involvements with -- sorry,

23 the Cramptons were involved in some of these

24 companies. When I say I was a 100% shareholder I

25 mean I was 100% shareholder of the shares that were

26 in our group. The group being Mr. O'Connor,

27 Mr. Walsh and Mr. Thompson.

28 227 Q. Was Mr. Crampton a shareholder in Sandpiper

29 Holdings ?
 1 A. Now, he was a shareholder in some of these

2 companies.

3 228 Q. Which one?

4 A. One or two of them.

5 229 Q. Which one?

6 A. I am afraid I would have to refer to the files to

7 see.

8 230 Q. Is it not very likely that it is Sandpiper?

9 A. It could well have been. It could well have been.

10 The most likely ones are Sandpiper -- I think not

11 Copenhagen. I am not sure about Youghal

12 and...(INTERJECTION).

13 231 Q. Why are you not sure about Youghal?

14 A. Em...(INTERJECTION).

15 232 Q. You told us that you had 100% of the shares?

16 A. Yes, yes, I had 100% in Youghal, yes.

17 233 Q. I mean have you a doubt about it?

18 A. No, sorry you just raised a doubt in my mind

19 with...(INTERJECTION).

20 234 Q. How could there be any doubt in your mind if your

21 father owned 100% of the shares in Youghal and you

22 received them on your father's death? How could

23 there be any doubt in your mind that Mr. Crampton

24 had any interest in Youghal?

25 A. I think that Youghal one is too early. It was

26 established too early. This was established before

27 Mr. O'Connor...(INTERJECTION).

28 235 Q. I am just asking you a question. How could you have

29 any doubt that Mr. Crampton had any interest in

29
 2 A. I am hesitating because Mr. Crampton had -- or the

3 Crampton people had an interest in some of these

4 companies and it is not clear in my mind which ones

5 they are.

6 236 Q. Well... (INTERJECTION)?

7 A. So, I don't.

8 237 Q. Let me help you?

9 A. I don't want to be too specific.

10 238 Q. Mr. Wood?

11 A. Yes.

12 239 Q. Let me help you?

13 A. Yes.

14 240 Q. You father had 100% of the shares in Youghal?

15 A. Well, I think that is true. I think that is true.

16 241 Q. Because you got 100% of the shares?

17 A. I certainly got whatever he had.

18 242 Q. No, no, you told us 100%?

19 A. Yes, I just hope I am not wrong now because you have

20 raised that doubt about the Cramptons in my mind.

21 243 Q. How can you find this out for us because it is

22 important?

23 A. I can -- again looking through the

24 files...(INTERJECTION).

25 244 Q. No, no, you have files -- can you make enquiries

26 through your solicitors, through an accountant,

27 through The Companies Office?

28 A. Those enquiries can be made through The Companies

29 Office possibly, certainly.

30
 2 A. Yes, of course, I will.

3 246 Q. Yes?

4 A. Yes, if you wish.

5 247 Q. Then let us move on?

6 A. Yes.

7 248 Q. Sandpiper Holdings, you think Mr. Crampton may have

8 had an interest in that?

9 A. He may have had an interest in that, yes.

10 249 Q. What interest do you think Mr. Crampton had in these

11 companies?

12 A. Well, I wish I could refer to the files because I

13 think it does give an indication in the files of his

14 interest in some of them.

15 250 Q. We can get the files if you want, if that will help?

16 A. Well, it might take a bit of a search but certainly

17 I will...(INTERJECTION).

18 251 Q. That is all right?

19 A. I will do as you wish.

20 252 Q. No, we can find out later?

21 A. Yes.

22 253 Q. Yes. Let us move on. Thrush Securities Ltd., when

23 was it established?

24 A. Sorry?

25 254 Q. When was it established, Mr. Wood?

26 A. I think the mid 1970's.

27 255 Q. Mid 1970's?

28 A. Sorry, earlier, I beg your pardon. No, the first

29 note -- yes, I imagine the mid 1970s.

31
 2 A. And I think that that was a -- I think the company,

3 in fact, was in existence. I think that is a

4 company that we took over but our involvement dates

5 from the mid 1970s.

6 257 Q. You say...(INTERJECTION)?

7 A. As far as I can recollect.

8 258 Q. You say, "when we took over", who do you mean?

9 A. I mean the same group.

10 259 Q. No, no, I am just concerned about your interest in

11 it and what interest you had in Thrush Securities

12 yourself personally?

13 A. Mine was a 70% interest in Thrush.

14 260 Q. 70%?

15 A. Yes.

16 261 Q. Now...(INTERJECTION)?

17 A. I don't think the Cramptons are involved in that

18 one.

19 262 Q. Where was that established?

20 A. I beg your pardon.

21 263 Q. Where was it established, incorporated?

22 A. In Ireland as far as I know.

23 264 Q. Yes. Was this part of the arrangements that

24 Guinness & Mahon had made or was it separate?

25 A. No, this is separate. They were bankers to it but

26 it had no Cayman involvement.

27 265 Q. That is why I am just wondering, why you have put it

28 here?

29 A. Because...(INTERJECTION).

32
 2 A. Because there is a note in my handwriting again

3 flagged in the files, which seems to indicate that

4 £22,035 came from abroad in 1975 via DT, presumably

5 Des Traynor.

6 267 Q. Yes?

7 A. You see the last few lines on that page?

8 268 Q. Yes. What does that mean to you?

9 A. It appears that -- well, Thrush was quite a large

10 investment for us, and it did have difficulties and

11 it required cash injections from time to time, and

12 it appears that some of the money that had gone

13 abroad came back to assist Thrush.

14 269 Q. You see it appears that some of the money that had

15 gone abroad?

16 A. Yes.

17 270 Q. What money went abroad?

18 A. Money went abroad from Sandpiper and from Youghal.

19 271 Q. When you say "went abroad" it went to a trust

20 company in the Cayman?

21 A. Yes, that is right. That is what I mean, yes.

22 272 Q. It went to a trust company?

23 A. That is what I am talking about, yes.

24 273 Q. The trust company in Cayman then transferred funds

25 to Thrush, is that right?

26 A. Yes, that is what it appears to say but as I also

27 say I can't find a mention of that sum in the

28 statement which I have from the Cayman.

29 274 Q. You think then that the trust company in the Caymans

33
 2 in Thrush?

3 A. That is right.

4 275 Q. Yes?

5 A. Yes, it appears that is the way it was done.

6 276 Q. This was done through Mr. Traynor?

7 A. That appears to be the case, yes.

8 277 Q. Yes?

9 A. According to my handwritten note.

10 278 Q. Yes. When you say the trust companies are you

11 talking about Hexagon?

12 A. Yes, and Whitethorne.

13 279 Q. And/or... (INTERJECTION)?

14 A. And/or Whitethorne No. 7.

15 280 Q. One or other?

16 A. Yes.

17 281 Q. You do not know which?

18 A. I don't know. I don't understand the arrangement

19 between them.

20 282 Q. Yes. Thrush Securities Ltd., was a company that was

21 registered, incorporated, in Ireland?

22 A. Yes.

23 283 Q. You owned 70% of the shares?

24 A. That is right.

25 284 Q. How big of a development was Portobello house? Was

26 it again in hundreds of thousands?

27 A. Hundreds of thousands, yes.

28 285 Q. In millions or...(INTERJECTION)?

29 A. No, hundreds of thousands.

34
 2 A. Yes.

3 287 Q. Yes. Do you know how it was -- when the development

4 took place? When was Portobello House developed?

5 A. Mid 1970s.

6 288 Q. Mid 1970s?

7 A. Yes.

8 289 Q. You were involved in that, were you?

9 A. Yes.

10 290 Q. How much involved were you, Mr. Wood?

11 A. I think I was involved as a 70% shareholder but I

12 can't say I was sort of a driving force or anything.

13 I mean I am not very good at these things.

14 Mr. O'Connor was much more involved in the technical

15 details of it and -- but I did write quite a lot of

16 letters to various people, you know,

17 about...(INTERJECTION).

18 291 Q. For example were you paid a salary by Thrush?

19 A. No, I wasn't.

20 292 Q. You were not?

21 A. No.

22 293 Q. Was Thrush, was it, buying? Was it developing the

23 site? Was it buying up the site or what was it

24 doing?

25 A. It bought Portobello House.

26 294 Q. It bought Portobello House?

27 A. And converted it from a nursing home into offices.

28 295 Q. Yes?

29 A. That is what it did.

35
 2 A. I was, yes, yes.

3 297 Q. Were you Managing...(INTERJECTION)?

4 A. Sorry?

5 298 Q. Were you Managing Director or...(INTERJECTION)?

6 A. We never give ourselves such titles.

7 299 Q. Yes. You were just a Director?

8 A. Yes.

9 300 Q. I see?

10 A. And I think I supported it with assets, borrowings.

11 301 Q. I am just wondering then, none of the funds, no

12 money from Thrush, went to any of the trust

13 companies in the Cayman Islands?

14 A. No, it didn't.

15 302 Q. However, money from the Cayman Islands came to

16 Thrush?

17 A. That appears to be the case.

18 303 Q. Would you turn now to Brookfield Securities?

19 A. Yes.

20 304 Q. This is Scotch House?

21 A. That is right, yes.

22 305 Q. When was it incorporated and where?

23 A. It is Irish and it would have been somewhat later

24 than Thrush. The exact date I don't know but I

25 image the late 1970's.

26 306 Q. What did you do, what did the company do, in

27 relation to Scotch House?

28 A. It purchased it and the site was redeveloped and I

29 think at a certain point the site next door was

36
 2 Rhatigan and the two were amalgamated.

3 307 Q. Yes. Again what was the total involvement of the

4 company in the development, are we talking about

5 hundreds of thousands or millions?

6 A. Yes, hundreds of thousands.

7 308 Q. Hundreds of thousands?

8 A. Yes, I think so, yes.

9 309 Q. Again was Guinness & Mahon the company's bankers?

10 A. I think they were bankers, yes.

11 310 Q. Yes?

12 A. Yes, I am sure they were the bankers to it.

13 311 Q. Yes. Did you borrow money from Guinness & Mahon?

14 A. Yes.

15 312 Q. Do you know what the security was for that?

16 A. It would have been assets of mine.

17 313 Q. Yes?

18 A. More than likely CRH shares.

19 314 Q. Do you know was there any security given for any of

20 the deposits that were held by the Bank? Was any of

21 the deposits held by the trust in Cayman used as

22 security for these?

23 A. I don't believe so.

24 315 Q. Have you made enquiries?

25 A. No, because the money out there -- all I know about

26 the money out there is that it went out there and it

27 subsequently came back, lodged to the two companies

28 that I mentioned.

29 316 Q. Do you not know...(INTERJECTION)?

37
 1 A. And wasn't used in any other way.

2 317 Q. Do you not know that it was part of the arrangements

3 that Mr. Traynor and GMI entered into with various

4 clients, that monies were put on deposit by these

5 foreign companies, Cayman companies and Cayman

6 Trust, and then the trustee company, which was

7 Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust?

8 A. Yes .

9 318 Q. Deposited money in Dublin. Did you know that?

10 A. Yes, I have read that in the paper but that

11 didn't...(INTERJECTION).

12 319 Q. You did not know that before?

13 A. No, I didn't know it before and it didn't happen

14 with us.

15 320 Q. Right. Brookfield Securities you said was in the

16 late 197 0's ?

17 A. Yes .

18 321 Q. How long did it go on for? How long was the

19 development in existence for?

20 A. I would say about seven years.

21 322 Q. Seven years?

22 A. Something like that.

23 323 Q. It would have gone on for some time in the

24 early 1980's?

25 A. Yes .

26 324 Q. Again, who owned the shares in Brookfield

27 Securities ?

28 A. Our group did, in approximately the same proportions

29 as previously. Now, whether the Rhatigans had a

38
 1 separate company or whether they were involved in

2 Brookfield I can't be quite sure at the moment.

3 325 Q. Do you know what your shareholding was in

4 Brookfield?

5 A. Mine personally or the group?

6 326 Q. Yes, you personally?

7 A. Mine would have been approximately 70% I imagine

8 again.

9 327 Q. Yes .

10 A. Of our group.

11 328 Q. Did it make a profit?

12 A. I can't recollect with Brookfield. I think it was

13 very modest if it did. It certainly was a difficult

14 one and I think it might have just broken even again

15 but I can't recall.

16 329 Q. Were any funds transferred by Brookfield Securities

17 to any of the trusts in the Cayman Islands?

18 A. No.

19 330 Q. Why have you included it in paragraph 8?

20 What...(INTERJECTION)?

21 A. Because I was asked I think what companies had any

22 connection with Guinness & Mahon and those are all

23 the companies that I could think of.

24 331 Q. However, that is Guinness & Mahon in Dublin?

25 A. In Dublin.

26 332 Q. You thought that -- you put that in even though it

27 had no connection at all with Cayman Islands?

28 A. That is right, yes, yes. I think the question asked

29 me to do so. Maybe I am wrong.

39
 2 the...(INTERJECTION)?

3 A. Yes, the question says:

4 "All bodies incorporated... READING INTO

THE WORDS...with the company which had
5 a direct or indirect interest."

7 So, I put them all in.

8 334 Q. Yes, the company is "Ansbacher"?

9 A. "Ansbacher" as opposed to Guinness & Mahon, is that

10 so?

11 335 Q. It is there in the letter Mr. Wood?

12 A. I see, I beg your pardon.

13 336 Q. Would you come down to the paragraph headed

14 Sandpiper Holdings?

15 A. Yes.

16 337 Q. You say in the second paragraph that you have one

17 document in handwriting giving,

18 "...a purported shareholding and a

company structure; another, also
19 undated..."

20

21 It continues:

22 "...shows that Rockrohan Estates..."

23

24 A. Rockrohan Estates Ltd.

25 338 Q.
"...Rockrohan Estates Ltd., my family
26 investment company, wrote a cheque for
£21,000..."
27

28 A. Yes.
339 Q.
29 "...for the benefit of the Warrington

40
 2

3 A. Yes.

4 340 Q. Would you tell me about Rockrohan Estates Ltd.?

5 A. Rockrohan Estates Ltd., is the company, the family

6 investment company, which was founded by my father

7 to hold shares and some land. Those shares are

8 primarily the shares of Cement Roadstone, CRH pic,

9 which he obtained when his company joined the group.

10 It is a bit more complicated than that. It predates

11 CRH. So, it became a sister company of Roadstone

12 Limited and then went on...(INTERJECTION).

13 341 Q. The company owns shares, is that it?

14 A. Yes, it does and some land.

15 342 Q. And some land?

16 A. Yes.

17 343 Q. What land does it own?

18 A. It owns part of the farm at home.

19 344 Q. Yes. I take it that it is an Irish registered

20 company?

21 A. It is, yes.

22 345 Q. Are you the beneficial owner of all the shares?

23 A. I am, yes.

24 346 Q. Would I be correct in saying that Rockrohan Estates

25 Ltd., borrowed money from Guinness & Mahon?

26 A. Yes, I think you are.

27 347 Q. Yes?

28 A. Yes, and there is one thing I would like to draw

29 your attention to on the second page of my letter.

41
 2 towards the bottom of the page, it mentioned

3 backing:

4 "...and that £40,000 of this is backing

my personal overdraft."
5

6 Now, that is a reference to backing which I came

7 across and I think what is meant by "my personal

8 overdraft" is, in fact, the overdraft of Rockrohan

9 Estates Ltd.

10 348 Q. Yes?

11 A. It is in effect, you know, personal.

12 349 Q. Have you a personal overdraft yourself?

13 A. With?

14 350 Q. With Guinness & Mahon?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 351 Q. Any borrowing that you would have undertaken would

17 have been by this company?

18 A. That is right, yes, yes.

19 352 Q. Would you mind Ms. Cummins giving the witness, it is

20 flagged two in our files, it is appendix 7/97A (Same

21 Handed) (Exhibit 3)?

22 A. Thank you.

23 353 Q. I want to refer you to a document, a

24 Guinness & Mahon document? Do you see the second

25 part there Rockrohan Estates Ltd.?

26 A. Yes, yes.

27 354 Q. Do you see it shows a balance of £39,614?

28 A. Yes.

29 355 Q. It shows the limit?

42
 2 356 Q. This is either the overdraft or loan, is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 357 Q. It shows the interest, it shows the maturity date?

5 A. Yes.

6 358 Q. 1977?

7 A. Yes.

8 359 Q. Can you remember getting either an overdraft or a

9 loan in that time?

10 A. I can't say I remember getting it but I know it was

11 in existence.

12 360 Q. Do you see "Security, suitably secured"?

13 A. Yes, I see that.

14 361 Q. Do you know what that phrase means?

15 A. I have never seen it before so I can only presume

16 that that connects with what I have written in my

17 letter here:

18 "...and that £40,000 of this is backing

my personal overdraft."
19

20 So, I presume it refers to the Hexagon Securities

21 monies of £65,000 odd.

22 362 Q. Yes. Can you not recall the circumstances in which

23 you raised this loan and the terms on which it was

24 granted?

25 A. No, I am afraid I can't.

26 363 Q. The note, in your handwriting, would indicate then

27 that — is this the note dated 7th July 1976? If

28 you would just go back to page two, paragraph two?

29 A. Of my letter?

43
 2 A. That is the one, yes.

3 365 Q. A note in your handwriting?

4 A. Yes.

5 366 Q. That note:

6 "... says that Hexagon Securities had

£65,225 on 31st December 1974 and that
7 £40,000 of this is backing my personal
overdraft."
8

9 A. Yes.

10 367 Q. What do you think that meant?

11 A. Well, it means I presume that that facility which --

12 that that facility was extended to us and I must say

13 I had no recollection of it until

14 I...(INTERJECTION).

15 368 Q. You have no recollection of it?

16 A. I have no recollection of it.

17 369 Q. Do you now how...(INTERJECTION)?

18 A. Until I saw it in the file.

19 370 Q. Do you know how a trust company in the Cayman

20 Islands gave the backing for your personal

21 overdraft?

22 A. I beg your pardon?

23 371 Q. Do you know how a company, a trust company, in the

24 Cayman Islands gave backing for your deposit here in

25 Ireland, for your loan here in Ireland?

26 A. No, I am afraid I don't know how that arose. I mean

27 I presume I was aware of it at the time but all

28 memory of it has faded and I was surprised to come

29 across that in the file I must say.

44
 2 A. Yes.

3 373 Q. You accept then that this document of yours would

4 indicate that the Hexagon Securities was used -- its

5 funds were used as security for your overdraft?

6 A. I do accept that. I accept that that certainly

7 seems to be the case. I do accept that.

8 374 Q. Yes?

9 A. Did I say earlier in the interview that that

10 facility wasn't granted to us. I think perhaps I

11 did. It was certainly in my mind that that facility

12 was never granted to us.

13 375 Q. Yes?

14 A. But it does appear to have...(INTERJECTION).

15 376 Q. To have been granted?

16 A. To have been granted, it does, yes.

17 377 Q. Yes?

18 A. It does and that phrase "suitably secured" certainly

19 I think indicates it too, doesn't it, from the

20 Guinness & Mahon letter?

21 378 Q. I take it you have been following what has been in

22 the press about Guinness & Mahon and about

23 "Ansbacher", have you?

24 A. Yes, I have.

25 379 Q. Have you been...(INTERJECTION)?

26 A. Yes.

27 380 Q. Have you seen this phrase "suitably secured" really

28 in the public press?

29 A. I presume I have. I mean the arrangement came to my

45
 2 381 Q. Yes?

3 A. But I was very surprised to see this note in the

4 file.

5 382 Q. Yes?

6 A. Because I had no recollection of it happening.

7 383 Q. Yes?

8 A. Yes.

9 384 Q. Yes. Perhaps we can take a break now, Mr. Wood?

10 A. Yes.

11 385 Q. We will have a cup of coffee. We can give you a cup

12 of coffee if you would like it. If you would like

13 to stay here we will go outside and we will be back

14 in about ten minutes?

15 A. As you wish.

16 386 Q. Thank you.

17

18 SHORT ADJOURNMENT

19

20 387 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Mr. Wood, we will resume

21 now. I have not got very

22 much more to ask you. If we go back to the third

23 page of your letter where you deal with the three

24 companies (Exhibit 1)?

25 A. Yes.

26 388 Q. You were referring to Rockrohan Estates Ltd.?

27 A. Yes.

28 389 Q. Just come to Thrush Securities Ltd.?

29 A. Yes.

46
 2 to indicate that £22,000 came from abroad?

3 A. Yes.

4 391 Q. During April 1975 from Des Traynor?

5 A. Yes.

6 392 Q. Where do you think that came from?

7 A. Where do I think -- where the money came from do you

8 mean?

9 393 Q. Yes?

10 A. Well, I can only presume that it came from the

11 account in the Cayman.

12 394 Q. The Cayman Islands, yes?

13 A. The funny thing is that I can't find that sum

14 mentioned in the statements.

15 395 Q. Yes?

16 A. So, I am at a bit of a loss to tell you the truth.

17 396 Q. Yes. Just turn over the page:

18 "The second connection is the letter

from Mr. Furze dated 16th March..."
19

20 And then the date,

21 "...telling me that £50,874.98 was

remitted to Thrush Securities."
22

23 A. Yes.

24 397 Q. Could you tell us what that was?

25 A. Again that is obviously from the same source.

26 398 Q. What was the source?

27 A. Well, either Hexagon or Whitethorne Trust. As I say

28 I don't understand the arrangements they made in the

29 Cayman with regard to these. As far as I am

47
 2 it has two names I don't know. That is part of the

3 money which would have been sent originally from

4 Sandpiper Holdings, the Warrington Place investment,

5 and a small amount from Copenhagen, the Boreenmanna

6 Road investment.

7 399 Q. Yes?

8 A. That must be the origin of that money.

9 400 Q. Yes. Would you look at the next line:

10 "The Thrush accounts for the period

16th March 1977 is a loan from a
11 company called Merrimac."

12

13 A. Yes.

14 401 Q. Can you recall what Merrimac is?

15 A. No, I am afraid I can't.

16 402 Q. Yes?

17 A. And I am sorry that I haven't had the time to

18 investigate that for you.

19 403 Q. Yes. Where would you turn to try to get some

20 information about Merrimac?

21 A. Well, it is possible that Mr. O'Connor may have some

22 recollection of it or possibly Mr. Field-Corbett.

23 404 Q. Yes?

24 A. Or possibly Guinness & Mahon.

25 405 Q. Will you make enquiries for us?

26 A. Certainly, yes, of course I will.

27 406 Q. The second last paragraph on page three refers to a

28 letter,

29 "...dated 16th March detailing the

repatriation of funds, £50,874.98 for

48
 2

3 And you say:

4 "... it brings to an end any involvement

with Cayman accounts."
5

6 A. Yes.

7 407 Q. Could you just look at that letter for a moment?

8 A. Which letter?

9 408 Q. The letter of the 16th March 1997 (Exhibit 4)?

10 A. This one here?

11 409 Q. Yes. Do you see this is from Mr. Furze and it is

12 headed "Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited"?

13 A. Now, is this -- this must have been in my file --

14 yes, sorry, yes. Have I mentioned this in my

15 account? Yes, the 16th March, yes. Yes, I am with

16 you, yes.

17 410 Q. Do you see it is addressed to you?

18 A. Yes.

19 411 Q. It is headed "Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited"?

20 A. Yes.

21 412 Q. I take it that you knew Mr. Furze?

22 A. No, I never met him.

23 413 Q. No, but did you know who he was?

24 A. He was a name in the Cayman as far as I was

25 concerned. I didn't know anything further about

26 him.

27 414 Q. When you say "Cayman", can you be a bit more

28 specific?

29 A. Well, he wrote from the Caymans. So, I

49
 1 presume...(INTERJECTION).

2 415 Q. From the Caymans, where? What was the heading of

3 the note-paper he wrote from?

4 A. Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited.

5 416 Q. He was connected with Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust

6 Limited?

7 A. Yes, he was, yes.

8 417 Q. You knew that?

9 A. Yes, because he signed the letter.

10 418 Q. Yes?

11 A. Yes .

12 419 Q. Do you see what he is doing? He is sending you out

13 "I have pleasure in attaching hereto

Statement of Affairs for both
14 Whitethorne No. 7 Trust and Hexagon
Securities Ltd."
15

16 A. Yes .

17 420 Q. Why was Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited sending

18 you a Statement of Affairs?

19 A. Because this arose from the companies, which are

20 listed in this letter here, which are the companies

21 set up by the group that I have been mentioning,

22 myself or my family and Mr. O'Connor, Mr. Walsh and

23 Mr. Thompson.

24 421 Q. Yes?

25 A. The proceeds of any of those companies, it was

26 arranged, would go to the Cayman but as I was the

27 nominal shareholder, the sole nominal shareholder,

28 and the others weren't shareholders, the letters

29 came to me rather than to anybody else.

50
 2 did you?

3 A. I think I received them once a year or something

4 like that.

5 423 Q. Yes?

6 A. There were quite long gaps.

7 424 Q. Yes. Telling you how Hexagon Securities Ltd., and

8 how Whitethorne No. 7 Trust behaved, had got on?

9 A. I beg your pardon?

10 425 Q. You received these regularly, these Statements of

11 Affairs?

12 A. Yes.

13 426 Q. Telling you how these companies got on, how these

14 trusts had got on?

15 A. That is right, yes.

16 427 Q. Would you just look at, if you would just turn over

17 the page, the Hexagon Securities Ltd.?

18 A. Yes.

19 428 Q. Sorry, before we do that we will continue with the

20 letter of the 16th March:

21 "The loan appearing on the Balance

Sheet is the amount remitted to Youghal
22 Developments and the figure of
£50,874.98 represents the amount
23 remitted to Thrush Securities."

24

25 A. Yes.

26 429 Q. That means that £50,000 was paid to Thrush from

27 Hexagon Securities Ltd.?

28 A. Yes.

29 430 Q. Do you think that was a trust? Hexagon Security

51
 2 trust?

3 A. I really have no idea.

4 431 Q. You have no idea?

5 A. No.

6 432 Q. The loan account of £27,500, Mr. Furze says that

7 this was remitted to Youghal Developments?

8 A. Yes.

9 433 Q. Was that a payment to them?

10 A. It was, yes. I presume it was money which went to

11 Youghal's account.

12 434 Q. No, you say "the repatriation of funds" in your

13 letter of £50,000?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 435 Q. What does that many?

16 A. It came back from the Cayman to Ireland.

17 436 Q. It is a loan account but do you know was this a loan

18 that Youghal then owed to Hexagon Securities Ltd.

19 A. No, I don't think so.

20 437 Q. You do not think so?

21 A. Youghal had an overdraft here in Ireland and I think

22 the money just went into the overdraft.

23 438 Q. It was a payment by Hexagon to Youghal so that

24 Youghal could pay off its overdraft?

25 A. That is right. That is my understanding of it.

26 439 Q. Would you turn to the next document, the next one,

27 the profit & loss account for the period 1976 to

28 1977?

29 A. Yes.

52
 2 interest from?

3 A. I presume from the money lodged in the Cayman.

4 441 Q. Yes?

5 A. As any deposit account would.

6 442 Q. This was apparently interest on the deposit account

7 of Hexagon Securities Ltd., in Cayman?

8 A. That is my understanding, yes.

9 443 Q. In the Cayman Bank?

10 A. Yes.

11 444 Q. Yes. Did you know that it was, as far as we have

12 been able to ascertain, a very regular practice of

13 the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited, which had

14 money on deposit such as this, of sending a similar

15 sum on a deposit into Dublin, Guinness Mahon

16 Ireland?

17 A. Sorry, would you mind saying that again?

18 445 Q. Do you know that it was a regular practice for

19 Guinness & Mahon, for Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust,

20 which had money on deposit in the Cayman Islands

21 Bank, sending a similar sum to the Dublin Bank, its

22 parent company Guinness Mahon Ireland?

23 A. No, I didn't know that.

24 446 Q. You did not know that?

25 A. No, I didn't know anything about that.

26 447 Q. Would you just turn over then to the last document

27 "Whitethorne No. 7 Trust"?

28 A. Yes.

29 448 Q. The capital of that was £100. The trust was

53
 1 established apparently with the £100. Would you

2 tell me how you understand then the next -- the

3 third entry down:

4 "Utilised as follows:
100 Hexagon Securities Limited Shares -
5 £50.00..."
£
D
Does it not look as if the Whitethorne Trust owned
7
Hexagon Securities?
8
9 A. Well, I am afraid I have no view on any of that. I

10 don't understand it. I don't know what they were

11 doing.

12 449 Q. Try Mr. Wood?

13 A. Yes .

14 450 Q. You are a businessman, Mr. Wood?

15 A. Well...(INTERJECTION).

16 451 Q. Try?

17 A. Yes .

18 452 Q. How do you read that?

19 A. I find it rather difficult. I don't know how to

20 read that. The capital amount £100, what does that

21 mean? If doesn't mean anything to me.

22 453 Q. Does it not?

23 A. Maybe I received £100 at some stage.

24 454 Q. Does it not mean to you that the trust was set up

25 with £100?

26 A. Yes, that is what it means but whether it received

27 £100 or not, you know -- I presume it did.

28 455 Q. You presumed it did?

29 A. Yes .
 2 A. Yes.

3 457 Q. What did it do then? It would utilise £100. It

4 bought 100 Hexagon Securities Ltd., shares at £50?

5 A. Well, presumably, yes. Yes, but why I have no idea.

6 458 Q. No, no, do not worry about the why?

7 A. Yes, Okay, yes.

8 459 Q. How do you read this?

9 A. It spent £50 on buying 100 Hexagon Securities Ltd.

10 Shares.

11 460 Q. Therefore it owned 100 shares in Hexagon?

12 A. That is right, yes, yes.

13 461 Q. Does it not look then as if the trust owned Hexagon

14 Securities Ltd.?

15 A. Yes. Well, it owned 100 shares in it.

16 462 Q. Look over the page, the first page?

17 A. The first page?

18 463 Q. Share capital £50?

19 A. Share capital?

20 464 Q. Yes?

21 A. Yes, share capital £50, yes, yes.

22 465 Q. You seem surprised at all this Mr. Wood, am I wrong

23 in that?

24 A. Well, to tell you the truth I have never taken much

25 notice of it.

26 466 Q. Have you not?

27 A. No.

28 467 Q. Having brought it to your notice now what conclusion

29 do you reach?

55
 1 A. o a n e i t h n ut

2 Hexagon...(INTERJECTION).

3 4 68 Q. Now, come come, Mr. Wood. You are an experienced

4 businessman. "Some relationship", what relationship?

5 A. Well, Whitethorne Trust...(INTERJECTION).

6 469 Q. Owned...(INTERJECTION)?

7 A. Hexagon Securities.

8 470 Q. All the shares in Hexagon Securities Ltd.?

9 A. Well, is it all there? I presume it is all.

10 471 Q. Why do you presume it is all? Can you

11 not...(INTERJECTION)?

12 A. Well, I mean I don't know how many shares there are

13 in...(INTERJECTION).

14 472 Q. Yes. If you look at its "share capital 50"?

15 A. All right does that indicate it owns the full

16 amount, Okay. Fair enough.

17 473 Q. Do you not think it does, if a Statement of Affairs

18 says the share capital was 50?

19 A. Sorry, that is true. Of course, yes, you are quite

20 right.

21 474 Q. Then what is the conclusion?

22 A. That one owns the other.

23 475 Q. Which owns which?

24 A. Whitethorne owns Hexagon.

25 476 Q. Yes. Very well?

26 A. I have no idea what that means I mean, you

27 know...(INTERJECTION).

28 477 Q. Have you not?

29 A. It just means the two seem to have been amalgamated.

56
 1 478 Q. Does it?

2 A. I think so, doesn't it?

3 479 Q. With regard to Whitethorne No. 7 Trust, can you tell

4 us about that?

5 A. I can't tell you any further.

6 480 Q. Yes?

7 A. Than is on these sheets.

8 481 Q. Did you not make enquiries at any time as to when

9 Whitethorne No. 7 Trust was set up?

10 A. No, I didn't.

11 482 Q. Will you?

12 A. Certainly, yes, if you wish.

13 483 Q. Yes, we would?

14 A. Yes.

15 484 Q. We would want you to do that?

16 A. Right, certainly.

17 485 Q. Do you know where you would make enquiries? Where

18 you could go to make enquiries about this?

19 A. Guinness & Mahon I presume.

20 486 Q. Yes?

21 A. Yes.

22 487 Q. Do you know were you involved in establishing it at

23 all?

24 A. No.

25 488 Q. You were not?

26 A. No.

27 489 Q. Did you know how it got its name?

28 A. No, I know nothing about it whatsoever. All I was

29 concerned about was that money was sent out there,

57
 1 the money was accounted for, and the money returned.

2 490 Q. Yes. Did you know that other trusts were set up in

3 the Cayman Islands, Whitethorne No. 6 Trust for

4 example?

5 A. Well, if there is a Whitethorne No. 7 presumably

6 there is a...(INTERJECTION).

7 491 Q. No, but... (INTERJECTION) ?

8 A. I mean I am only presuming. I don't know.

9 4 92 Q. You do not know?

10 A. No, I don't.

11 493 Q. Could I suggest that you would make enquiries in

12 Stokes Kennedy Crowley about a Mr. Don Reid who is

13 retired now from Stokes Kennedy Crowley, but was

14 involved in establishing Whitethorne No. 6 Trust?

15 A. Well, certainly, if you wish.

16 494 Q. Well...(INTERJECTION)?

17 A. Obviously this is leading somewhere but I am quite

18 blind. I don't understand it.

19 495 Q. No, what I am trying to get your assistance on

20 Mr. Wood is to make enquiries about the

21 establishment of Whitethorne No. 7 Trust?

22 A. Yes, right.

23 496 Q. What I am suggesting to you is that whilst you have

24 said that you will ask Guinness & Mahon, that you

25 would also, I suggest, ask Stokes Kennedy Crowley?

26 A. Yes, certainly.

27 497 Q. Very well?

28 A. Yes.

29 498 Q. Very well. That is all the questions I want to ask

58
 1 you. Mr. Rowan might like to ask you some

2 questions?

3 A. Yes.

5 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. WOOD BY MR. JUSTICE

6 COSTELLO

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

59
 2 MR. ROWAN

4 4 99 Q. MR. ROWAN: Mr. Wood, if you please

5 turn to the second page of

6 the batch of documents which we have just being

7 looking at, the Hexagon Securities Balance Sheet,

8 please (Exhibit 4)?

9 A. Yes.

10 500 Q. That Balance Sheet looks a little unusual, not

11 having any assets in it but has liabilities but no

12 assets. What do you make of that?

13 A. Personally I make nothing of it. I don't understand

14 this -- the arrangements they made out there in the

15 Cayman. As far as I was concerned money went out to

16 an account, remained in that account, earned

17 interest and returned. To my mind it was an

18 account. So, I don't make anything of it.

19 501 Q. Where is the account shown on that Balance Sheet?

20 A. Well, these are the arrangements that were put in

21 place. I don't know. I can't answer your question.

22 I am merely saying that these are the arrangements

23 that were put in place, I think by Des Traynor, a

24 very long time ago. I had nothing to do with it and

25 I don't understand the arrangements.

26 502 Q. In the letter of the 16th March Mr. Furze invites

27 you to sign a copy of the letter enclosing "the

28 Statement of Affairs and return it to our Dublin

29 Office". You were asked to indicate that you agreed

60
 1 with the contents of these Statements at that time?

2 A. Yes, that is right, but as far as I was concerned --

3 I was only worried about the actual cash.

4 503 Q. However, there is cash shown in Hexagon?

5 A. No, Okay. Well, fair enough. Yes, fair enough.

6 504 Q. That is the bit...(INTERJECTION)?

7 A. Well, sorry...(INTERJECTION).

8 505 Q. That is the bit that is intriguing?

9 A. There is the £78,000, isn't there?

10 506 Q. It does not say that that is a bank account, does

11 it?

12 A. No, it doesn't. No, I agree, it doesn't.

13 507 Q. Yes?

14 A. It just says its money.

15 508 Q. Yes. Ultimately, strangely enough, although it does

16 not say that it had money in a bank account, it did

17 indeed pay over those amounts of money to Youghal

18 and to Thrush?

19 A. Yes, as I would have expected.

20 509 Q. Yes?

21 A. Because that is what we asked to happen.

22 510 Q. Very strange. The other matter I would like to

23 raise with you is that in the third paragraph of the

24 letter of the 16th March, Mr. Furze says:

25 "I would confirm having received

instructions from Mr. Don O'Connor
26 confirming that we should wind up the
company effective 28th February."
27

28 A. Yes.

29 511 Q. Was Mr. O'Connor empowered to give instructions of

61
 1 that sort?

2 A. Yes, but I don't think formally. He was a Director

3 of Guinness & Mahon, and he was one of our group,

4 and I think it is quite natural that decisions being

5 made of that nature would be conveyed through him.

6 512 Q. Did you say earlier in your evidence that

7 Mr. O'Connor was very much involved in running

8 these development companies?

9 A. Yes, he was.

10 513 Q. Would that account for why he then would perhaps be

11 giving instructions of this sort?

12 A. Yes, and also I think the fact that he was a

13 Director of Guinness & Mahon at the time.

14 514 Q. Why would the latter point be relevant?

15 A. Well, well, he had dual expertise as it were as a

16 person who knew intimately about building and

17 property development and also he was a members of

18 the Guinness & Mahon team. He was a Director of

19 Guinness & Mahon, is what I mean by that.

20 515 Q. Why would that have given him authority over Hexagon

21 Securities ?

22 A. Because he was a member of the group of four people.

23 516 Q. Yes?

24 A. Which worked closely together.

25 517 Q. I see. I do not have any other questions. Thank

26 you.

27 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. WOOD BY MR. ROWAN

28

29
 2 MS. MACKEY

4 518 Q. MS. MACKEY: Mr. Wood, you mentioned a

5 few moments ago that as

6 far as you were concerned what you wanted to know

7 about was the fact that money went out there, that

8 it earned interest, that it was accounted for, and

9 that it came back?

10 A. Yes.

11 519 Q. You, I think, as you explained were the nominal sole

12 shareholder in these companies?

13 A. Yes.

14 520 Q. Which were utilized by this group?

15 A. Yes.

16 521 Q. The Statement of Affairs and so on came back to you?

17 A. Yes.

18 522 Q. You were the person that signed the Statement of

19 Affairs, and made decisions and so on?

20 A. Yes.

21 523 Q. And that the people in Cayman referred to?

22 A. Yes.

23 524 Q. You knew that this money whereever it was, it was in

24 an account you say, earning interest?

25 A. Yes.

26 525 Q. Did you declare that interest to The Revenue?

27 A. I believe not.

28 526 Q. You believe not?

29 A. I think not.

63
 1 527 Q. After your father's death Mr. Wood what was your

2 role in the company J. A. Wood?

3 A. I became Chairman of it.

4 528 Q. You became Chairman?

5 A. Yes.

6 529 Q. Okay. That was 1972, is that right?

7 A. 1972, yes.

8 530 Q. Until?

9 A. Well, I am still Chairman of it.

10 531 Q. You are still Chairman?

11 A. Yes.

12 532 Q. I see. That is your present position?

13 A. Yes.

14 533 Q. When did you become a Director of Cement Roadstone

15 Holdings?

16 A. In 1981.

17 534 Q. How long did that continue?

18 A. Until about three years ago.

19 535 Q. Until 1997?

20 A. Yes, approximately.

21 536 Q. Were you an executive or non-executive Director?

22 A. Non-executive.

23 537 Q. Non-executive?

24 A. Yes.

25 538 Q. In your role as non-executive Director did you come

26 much in contact with Mr. Traynor?

27 A. From time to time. Mainly at board meetings and

28 occasionally when we went abroad on trips to view

29 various facilities, which we had abroad.

64
 1 539 Q. I see?

2 A. Or in Ireland, indeed around Ireland.

3 540 Q. Were you aware of Mr. Traynor's involvement with the

4 company, as we call it, "Ansbacher" Guinness Mahon

5 Cayman Trust?

6 A. I had ceased to be aware of it to tell you the

7 truth. I ... (INTERJECTION) .

8 541 Q. You had ceased to be aware of it?

9 A. Well, what I mean is that I was obviously aware when

10 we were involved. Our involvement came to an end in

11 -- whenever it was -- was it 1977?

12 542 Q. Right. If I could just take...(INTERJECTION)?

13 A. And after that it just, you know, faded from my

14 mind.

15 543 Q. You ceased to be aware?

16 A. Yes.

17 544 Q. Tell me about your awareness during the time that

18 you were involved?

19 A. It was... (INTERJECTION) .

20 545 Q. Let me put it this way: When did you first become

21 aware that Mr. Traynor was involved in Guinness

22 Mahon Cayman Trust?

23 A. I mean I can't remember whether it was -- I presume

24 it was before -- yes, it would have been before my

25 father died.

26 546 Q. Before your father died?

27 A. Yes.

28 547 Q. At that stage did you know that Mr. Traynor was

29 involved with the same company that your group of

65
 1 companies here were involved with in the

2 Cayman Islands?

3 A. Sorry, he wasn't directly involved with our group of

4 companies.

5 548 Q. No, but it is Ansbacher which was...(INTERJECTION)?

6 A. The Caymans.

7 549 Q. The Cayman Trust?

8 A. The Cayman Deposit, yes, the Cayman Trust.

9 550 Q. Yes?

10 A. Sorry, what was the question again?

11 551 Q. Tell me what you knew he was involved in, in the

12 Cayman Islands?

13 A. Yes, all I know is that the scheme for lodging money

14 in the Cayman was one which was, as far as I was

15 aware, was devised by Mr. Traynor.

16 552 Q. When you say the scheme, the one that your group of

17 companies was involved in, that scheme?

18 A. The one for depositing money in the Cayman.

19 553 Q. Yes?

20 A. My understanding of it was that it was taking

21 advantage of a loophole in the laws or a weakness in

22 the laws and I was certainly not aware that there

23 was anything illegal about it. Mr. Traynor was

24 after all a banker and those were the days when one

25 trusted bankers. I would be very surprised, I don't

26 think any of us felt that there was anything illegal

27 about it. I doubt very much any of us would have

28 been involved if there had been illegality, that you

29 know, we understood it to be illegal.

66
 1 554 Q. Yes. If I can just stop you there?

2 A. Yes.

3 555 Q. He had devised, as you say, this scheme for tax

4 avoidance?

5 A. Yes.

6 556 Q. This was in fact the scheme then that the group of

7 companies which your group was involved with availed

8 of, is that right?

9 A. That's right, yes.

10 557 Q. At the time that your group of companies was

11 involved in this, you knew Mr. Traynor was involved

12 in it with that?

13 A. Yes, I had some idea that he was. He was very much

14 in the background as far as I was concerned.

15 558 Q. I see. Did you get any advice from him about it?

16 A. Not directly, no.

17 559 Q. When you say not directly?

18 A. I presume the advice, all the advice in connection

19 with it came from him.

20 560 Q. Who would he have given that advice to?

21 A. I presume it came through Mr. O'Connor but again

22 this all happened before my father's death and I am

23 not sure precisely how it occurred but that is my

24 surmise.

25 561 Q. Youghal Developments, is that a company incorporated

26 in Ireland or is it in incorporated in the

27 Cayman Islands, do you know?

28 A. I will have to check that, I am just not sure.

29 562 Q. Finally, just if I could refer you again to the

67
 1 written statement you provided for us. At the

2 bottom of page two, numbered page two of that where

3 you talk about Thrush Securities (Exhibit 1)?

4 A. Yes.

5 563 Q. You see Thrush Securities there at the bottom of

6 that?

7 A. Is that in paragraph two, page two is it?

8 564 Q. Page two, it is at the top of that page there,

9 number two, do you see it?

10 A. Yes.

11 565 Q. Then you have a paragraph at the very bottom headed:

12 "Thrush Securities Limited?"

13 A. Yes, I beg your pardon, yes.

14 566 Q. The very final statement there says:

15
"I can find no mention of this sum."
16

17 You are referring to a sum?

18 A. Yes.

19 567 Q. "In the statements sent to me from the Cayman?"

20 A. Yes.

21 568 Q. What are those statements that you refer to there?

22 A. They are statements of the account, as I thought it

23 was, which was earning interest.

24 569 Q. Are they similar to the statement of affairs of the

25 company that we looked at a moment ago, the Hexagon?

26 A. No, they are actual bank statements.

27 570 Q. Bank statements and have you provided us with those?

28 A. Yes, you have them.

29 571 Q. They are in the boxes are they?

68
 1 A. They are, yes.

2 572 Q. Do they cover a particular period of time?

3 A. They do. I can't guarantee they are complete

4 though.

5 573 Q. Yes. How did these statements come to you, were

6 they sent?

7 A. Just in the post.

8 574 Q. In the post?

9 A. Yes .

10 575 Q. Who sent them do you know?

11 A. I presume Mr. Furze sent them.

12 576 Q. Mr. Furze sent them?

13 A. Yes .

14 577 Q. And how frequently would they arrive?

15 A. That is what I was trying to recollect. They were

16 infrequent and I don't know whether they were six

17 monthly or yearly. I have a notion they were

18 yearly. They did not come very often.

19 578 Q. Anyway we have them there?

20 A. You have them, yes, you have what I have.

21 MS. MACKEY: Yes okay. That is all the

22 questions I want to ask

23 you, Mr. Wood. It may be that when we have read

24 through all the documents that you provided for us,

25 we might want to talk to you again but the Judge

26 will

27 A. Yes, certainly.
9 fi
Zo

29 END OF EXAMINATION OF MR. WOOD BY MS. MACKEY

 2 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO

4 579 Q. MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: Just a couple of

5 points Mr. Woods, I should

6 have asked you. I forgot to. Did this letter of

7 the 16th March 1977 (Exhibit 4); you say that it

8 brings to an end any involvement with Cayman

9 accounts. That was the winding up of this company

10 Hexagon Securities Ltd.?

11 A. Yes, that is my understanding of it, yes.

12 580 Q. Did you not have any further dealings then at all

13 with the Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust Limited?

14 A. I don't think so, not to my knowledge.

15 581 Q. What about your own company that had obtained a loan

16 which was backed, as we have seen, did you continue

17 to obtain loans from Guinness & Mahon for your own

18 company?

19 A. I think what was happening was my company was

20 raising funds to support these development

21 companies.

22 582 Q. Yes?

23 A. I don't understand that backing reference but

24 assuming that that took place and obviously it seems

25 to have done so, when the backing, as it was,

26 presumably in 1977 with the return of the funds, I

27 assumed that alternative security arrangements were

28 put in place and that Guinness & Mahon were given

29 possibly CRH shares belonging to Rockrohan Estates

70
 1 Ltd.

2 583 Q. You had nothing further then to do with any trust in

3 the Cayman Islands or in the Guinness Mahon Cayman

4 Trust Limited after that?

5 A. I believe there was no further involvement.

6 584 Q. Yes, very well?

7 A. Could I just say finally one further point?

8 585 Q. Yes, of course?

9 A. Just to reinforce what I was saying earlier about

10 the legality point and trusting bankers and so

11 forth. As you know, Mr. Traynor subsequently

12 became Chairman of CRH and that was while I was a

13 director so I was involved in his selection as

14 Chairman. Obviously, we would not have selected

15 anyone whom we felt had been involved in illegality.

16 586 Q. Yes?

17 A. In the light of subsequent information that may seem

18 rather extraordinary but that certainly was the case

19 at the time. Sorry, I just wanted to make that

20 point.

21 587 Q. Just arising from that, we understand that

22 Mr. Traynor had an office in the premises of

23 Cement Roadstone?

24 A. Yes .

25 588 Q. Did you ever transact any of your business with him

26 in that office?

27 A. No.

28 589 Q. You did not?

29 A. No, indeed the Cayman business was all over by then.

 1 When I became a director, I became a director in

2 1981, the Cayman, my involvement with the Cayman

3 ended in 1977.

4 590 Q. You did not have any cause to?

5 A. No, none, no and in fact I can't remember ever being

6 in that office. I had no idea what he was doing

7 there and again it was a case of trusting bankers

8 and one didn't interfere with their private affairs.

9 That is a similar situation to my own in

10 John A. Wood Limited where I am a non-executive

11 Director and I have an office and I continue doing

12 my own affairs there and nobody in the company

13 interferes with me. It is exactly the same

14 situation and there are lots of other non-executive

15 Chairmen throughout CRH who have the same

16 facilities.

17 591 Q. Mr. Wood, we have to ask you to sign this transcript

18 of your evidence here today when that is available

19 and Ms. Cummins will be in touch with you. We may

20 have to call you back when we have looked at the

21 documents you have given us and we would be grateful

22 if you would make the enquiries which we have asked

23 you?

24 A. Yes and I take it you got a list of the questions,

25 do you?

26 MS. CUMMINS: I do.

27 A. You do, that is all right.

28 MR. JUSTICE COSTELLO: All right. Very well

29 then. Thank you.

72
Right you are. Thank you.

THE EXAMINATION WAS THEN CONCLUDED

- J L Cfc—cL b-^QOt

^OV^CvVq^
Appendix XV (139) (l)(b)
 R O C K R O H A N , C A R R 1 G R O H A N E , C O U N T Y C O R K ,

Telephone: (021) 541019

RFW/LO'R 16th March, 2000.

The Inspectors,
Office of the Inspectors to Ansbacher (Cayman) Ltd.,
Floor,
Trident House,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.

Dear Sirs and Madam,

After the passage of so many years it is not possible to answer your question about my dealings
with Messrs. Guinness and Mahon in as detailed a manner as you have requested. Thus I feel it
would be helpful if Ifirstly gave you a narrative account, which will give you a picture of what
took place and will, I hope, be of some assistance. This is then followed by answers to the
questions you posed, which are as detailed as I can make them.

The train of events began before the death of my father, which occurred in Fehruary 1972. He
and three friends,
. and Xx.
xy decided to get involved in some modest property development,firstly in Youghal, Co.
Cork, as well as in Cork City, and then in Dublin where x v had moved after leaving
the conqjany in Cork. At this stage y_x had become a director of Guinness and Mahon
Ltd.

It is most important to appreciate theform of relationship that existed between the members of
this group; it was one of great trust Literally, their word was their bond and a promise given
was never questioned.

Thus an informal company arrangement was put in place with my father, as the provider of funds,
as guarantor. Whereas he was the sole beneficiary of whatever company might be created as the
vehicle for a particular development, he gave his word that any surplus woukl be divided as
follows: 70% to himself 14% to. W , 8% each to * x The
three, were never shareholders in any of the companies used for
any of the property developments undertaken. These shareholdings appeartohave varied slightly
from company to company. Both xy , and x x were to
he paidfor their professional services. xx » a colleague of x x in
Guinness and Mahon, was asked to act in a managerial capacity.

Answers to Questions

M f r g s with the Company.

Following my father's death in 1972,1 dealt with Guinness and Mahon largely on a "drop in"
basis, being friendly with •xx . I met . Vx rarely, and Mr. Des
Traynor in passing once or twice. Apartfrom this I can recollect one moreformal meeting with
these three directors but I cannot remember its content.
' C O N T I N U A T I O N S H E E T WO.

Apartfrom my personal advisers, we used the services of Management and Investment Services
Ltd. to do secretarial workfor some of the companies involved, on the advice of Guinness and
Mahon. X^ was involved primarily, and also acted.

Three companies appear to have had connections with Cayman; Youghal Development Co. Ltd.,
Copenhagen Investment Co. Ltd., and Sandpiper Holdings. Their proceeds were handled through
Hexagon Securities and Whitethorne No. 7 Trust in the Cayman. I do not understand the
relationship between these two, they appear to have been amalgamated. See thefile with their
name. Afourth company, Thrush Securities Ltd., benefitted from the proceeds of funds lodged
in the Cayman. I will deal with Youghalfirstly, then Copenhagen, then Sandpiper, and finally
Thrush.

Oymn Tslffi* Tnwts and Tn1

* roirmnnics
la.
- The earliest evidence I have of any dealings with Cayman Island banks is a letter of 6° June
1969from Des Traynor to enclosing one to John Furze of the Bank of Nova
Scotia Trust Company (Cayman) Ltd. (see Youghal Development file).
>• There appears to be no deed of contract

- Advice was given by Mr. Des Traynor of Haughey Boland & Co., 61/62, Amien Street,
Dublin 1, and X*
both subsequently of Guinness & Mahon.
- There appears to be no Deed of Trust.

- There appearstobe no Articles and Memorandum of Association nor shareholders agreement,

lb.
- Cash wasfirst transferred before 20* November 1969, see letter of that date in Youghal file,
but this was merely for setting-up expenses. A draft statement of af&irs of the company,
dated 28* August 1975, (see Youghalfile), shows that £1,300 had been sent to the Cayman,
presumably as payment of Government charges and fees.
lc
-
- It appears that Youghal never a profit, infeet a handwritten document dated ~r July
1976 seems to indicate that its liability at that time stood at £46,300. Though I do not fully
nyiHgrshind this document, it seems that my nett allocation of this liability, £26,200 was
satisfied from funds lodged'in the Caymanfrom the Warrington Place, and Boreenmanna
Road ventures (see note date 28* October 1976 in Youghal file). The Youghal property was
then sold and thefile comes to an end.
2. It appears that the funds raisedfor Youghal Development Co. Ltd. camefrom Irish banks and
were backed by the deposit of assets here in Ireland, though it must be said that this is not
entirely clear. I came across a note in a strange hand, which mentions backing. I do not
understand it It is dated 7 th July 1976. See Youghal file. A note in my handwriting dated
18th April 1975 (see Thrush 72-77 file) says that Hexagon Securities had £65,225 on 31
December 1974 and that £40,000 of this is backing my personal overdraft.

3 and 5

I am not aware of any transactions with Irish Intercontinental Bank Ltd.

CONTINUATION SHEET NO.

4. I am not aware of any loan and guarantee facilities provided by Guinness and Mahon (Ireland)
Ltd.
6. I am not aware that any applicationfor permission under the Exchange Controls Act was
made in relationtothe company's transactions. I certainly was neither aware, nor was made
aware, of the necessity for such permission.

7. Though I have come across one reference to "a Jersey Company" in the Thrush 1972-1983
file, (see "Jersey Co.") I do not understand the reference and have no recollection of the
matter.

8. Companies
Company Name Property
Youghal Development CO. Ltd. Youghal
Copenhagen Investment Co. Ltd. Boreenmanna Road
Sandpiper Holdings Warrington Place
Thrush Securities Ltd. Portobello House
Brookfield Securities Ltd. Scotch House.

CrftlffllhflWff Investment Co. Ltd.

I can find only two references to this conqjany, which appears to have carried out a minor
development on the Boreenmanna Road in Cork. One is a letter from Sc to me
regarding the incorporation of the company, dated 18* September 1974. The other is a note in
my handwriting dated 28th October 1976, which indicates that Copenhagen made a surplus of
£7,500 and that this was transferred to the Cayman. Both are stapled together and are to be found
under the date 28* October 1976 in the Youghal file.

SandtpipCT Holdings
This is the company that was createdtodeal with the Warrington Place development.
I have only three documents that mention it One, undated and in my handwriting, gives a
purported shareholding and company structure; another, also undated and also in my hand, shows
that Rockrohan Estate Ltd., myfemily investment company, wrote a chequefor £21,000for the
benefit of the Warrington Place venture; the third is a letterfrom Maurice O'Kelly of Guinness
and Mahon Ltd., dated 19* April 1973 (see Youghalfile, clippedtogetherat the back) returning
the £21,000 investment upon completion of the project, and saying that a sum of £55,694.37 has
been transferred toa Trust Account.

Thrush Securities Ltd.

With regardtoThrush Securities Ltd. I canfind only two possible connections with it and any off-
shore accounts. Thefirst comesfrom a note in my handwriting dated 25* January 1977 (see
Thrush Securities 1972 - 77file) which seems to indicate that £22,035 came "from abroad" during
April 1975, via "DT", presumably Des Traynor, to the account of Thrush. However, I can find
no mention of this sum in the statements sent to mefrom the Cayman.
C O N T I N U A T I O N S H E E T WO.

The second connection is the letterfrom Mr. Furze to me dated 16* March 1077 (see Hexagon
Securities Ltd. and Whitethorne Trustfile) telling me that £50,874.98 was remitted to Thrush
Securities.

In Thrush's accounts for the period 28* February 1977 is a loanfrom a company called
Mexrimac. I have no information on this company at present

Mr. Furze's letter to me dated 16* March 1977 detailing the repatriation of funds, £50,874.98 for
Thrush and £27,500.00for Youghal, brings to an end any involvement with Cayman accounts.

The misunderstanding between myself and my accountant over the preparation of this letter has
delayed its transmission to you and has caused its preparation to be more hasty than is desirable.
As a consequence I cannot guarantee that no matter has been overlooked. I hope, however, that it
enables us to make reasonable progress and that your time will not be wasted by its contents.

Yours faithfully,

Oca «A i/vXs-oJ .

Richard Wood.

EncL
Appendix XV (139) (1) (c)
 GUINNESS MAHON CAYMAN TRUST LIMITED
A Member of the Guinness Mahon Merchant Banking Group

Telephone No 0-4653/4 RO. Box 887

Telex CP 305 Grand Cayman

Cable Address. Guinness British West Indies

your- ref
ourref JAF/AJW 1 6 t h March, 1977.

Bichard Wood, Esq.,

"Rockrohan",
Carrigrohane, -
Co. Cork.

Dear Mr. Wood,

HEXAGON SECURITIES LTD.
I have pleasure in attaching hereto Statement of
Affairs for both the Whitethorne No.7 Trust and Hexagon
Securities. Limited.
The loan appearing on the Balance Sheet is the
amount remitted to Youghal Developments and the figure of
£50,874.98 represents the amount remitted to'Thrush
Securities.
I would confirm having received instructions from
confirming that ve should wind up the
Company effective 28th February. I should be grateful
if you would sign the enclosed copy of this letter together
with a copy of the Statement of Affairs and return to our
Dublin office in the enclosed stamped addressed envelope.

Tours sincerely,

J.A. Furze. fry cteJuJi ^

^bot + £ F-C ^ 31/3/7?.

CawaJ', .
 HEXAGON SECURITIES LIMITED

P.O. Box 887. Grand Cayman. B.ff.I.

Balance Sheet aa at 28th February 1977

LIABILITIES:

Share Capital 50.00

Profit & Loss Account 78,324.98

£78,374.98

REPRESENTED BY:

Loan Account 27,500.00

Suspense Account 50,874.9 8 7i>TH*«

£78.374.98

Agreed as being correct:

Signed:

Date:
 HEXAGON SECURITIES LIMITED

P.O. Box 887. Grand Cayman, B.W.I.

P r o f i t and Loss Account for Period 3 1 / 3 / 1 9 7 6 t o 2 8 / 2 / 1 9 7 7

I n t e r e s t Received 6,118.23

Less:
(:. >
Government F e e s , Management Fees
and Sundry Disbursements 499.09

Loan Whitethorne Trust No.7

written off 390.82 889.91

5 , 2 2 8 >32

Add:
Balance forward a t 3 1 / 3 / 1 9 7 6 73,096.66

£78,324.98

Agreed a s b e i n g c o r r e c t :

Signed:,

Date:
 WHITETHORNE NO. 7 TRUST

P.O. Box 887. Grand Cayman B.W.I.

Capital Amount

Loan from Hexagon Securities Ltd.

Utilised as follows:-

100 Hexagon Securities Limited Shares

Government Stamp Duty . .

Trustees Acceptance Fee

Agreed as being correct:

Signed: __________________
*

Date:
Appendix XV (139) (1) (d)
 •!•••••
yoorYamMt
iwf ••• •••,-"-•.-. ' • • •. Jj-.., •>•
JAB/CL
January 28, 1976
) Mr. T. R. Leonard
GuinnessfiMahon Ltd.
17 Collage Green
Dublin 2
ISBLMTO

ar Bn:
As Mr. Traynor will probably have advised you, I an anxious
to ensure that these are as few overdrafts on any of the cor-
porate accounts, which we manage, at the end of March as
X possible. In this connection, X wonder whether you can con-
firm that >200 has been credited to our sundry sub-cooqsaay
account in connection with Equinox Holdings Limited (this
was mentioned by JOT in one of his recent letters to ma
r n concerning this company) and also whether you can arrange
. for the transfer to the sundry sub-company account of *200
J from the "A/G" deposit series in connection with additional
funds required for Hexagon Securities Limited.
Your assistance in this connection is much appreciated.
Yours sincerely.
Appendix XV (139) (2) (a)
 K'XROHAX CARRIGROHANE, COUNTY CORK

Telephone: (021)4541019

3 rd December. 2001 ; ~ ff ' /

Ms. Noreen Mackey, B.L.,

Mr. Paul Rowan, F.C.A.,
Mr. Michael Cush, S.C.,
Inspectors.

Dear Madam and Sirs,

I am grateful to you for affording me an opportunity to provide you with a written reply to your
preliminary conclusion, based on the evidence provided to you, that I was a client of Guinness
Mahon Cayman Trust Limited.

Having spoken further to those who were connected with my late father in the initiation stages
of this business I would like to make the following points.

In the late sixties my father made the decision to enter the property development business as a
sideline. Taxation on such developments was so high and determined in such a harsh manner
- all profit being treated as income in the year that it arose and therefore subject to the highest
rate - that businessmen attempted to find legitimate ways around this problem, which had the
effect of stunting the development of Dublin and elsewhere and hindering economic activity.

In my father's case he was advised to go to Messrs. Haughey Boland for accounting and
taxation advice and it was there that he first met Mr. Des Traynor. Mr. Traynor devised the
scheme which was put in place, the details of which I have already given to you. Incidentally,
this was some years before Mr. Traynor and my father became colleagues on the board of
Cement-Roadstone Holdings Ltd. (now CRH pic), which was created by the merges of Cement
Ltd. and Roadstone Ltd. Mr. Traynor had been on the board of Cement Ltd. and my father had
been on the board of Roadstone Ltd.

There was never any suspicion that Mr. Traynor's scheme was illegal; neither my father nor
his colleague in this business, the late Mr. Fred Thomson, retired Agent of the Bank of Ireland
in Cork, would have countenanced such a thing. Both were honourable men, and so were the
others who were associated with them.

In any case, I had no knowledge of the arrangements made and was aware of no reason why
they should be questioned. I inherited the situationfrom my father and I never had a reason in
my life to doubt either his honesty or his integrity.

When, therefore, money became availablefrom the first of the developments to mature, which
happened in 1973 after the death of my father in 1972, I adhered to the steps of the scheme
devised by Mr. Traynor and sent the surplus to the trusts set up by Guinness Mahon Cayman
Trust Ltd. Subsequently, all the funds (£78,374.98) were returned to Ireland in 1977 and
invested in Irish development companies which undertook development work here in Ireland.

During all this time I relied on professional advice in ensuring that all other legal obligations
were met. I am not aware of any shortcomings in that regard.

Hence I would be grateful if, in future publicity created by those who publish the conclusions
of the investigations presently in hand, my name might be cleared of the taint of suspicion that
currently attaches to it.

Yours sincerely,

Richard Wood.
Appendix XV (140) Mr Christopher Woodward
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Christopher Woodward.

a) Guinness and Mahonfile note re credit committee meeting of 28 February

1978.

b) Guinness and Mahon loan memo of 28 February 1979.

c) Guinness and Mahon file note of 23 March 1979.

d) Letter of 23 August 1979 - Guinness and Mahon to Mr Christopher

Woodward.

e) Guinness and Mahon file note of 12 October 1977 - P O'Dwyer to TRL.

FILE NOTE

CHRISTOPHER WOODWARD
Loan £18,948.75
Interest Rate 1%

At a Credit Committee meeting h61d on 28th February, 1978 it

was agreed to extend the above Loan for a further period to 30th
April, 1979. -
No formal facility letter has been issued. John Collins
of Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust has been advised.

PO'D/SM
Appendix XV (141) (l)(b)
 LOAN DECISION MEMORANDUM •

REFERENCE MINUTE NUMBER ' DATE

NAME OF APPLICANT : 4/&9<i

AMOUNT : 94- ? J &

PURPOSE :

v ') TERM & SOURCE OF REPAYMENTS : / ^ ^ c A /GpU&cf Cfef T?

RATE ;

COMMITMENT FEE s N/C-

DRAWDOWN : ^ ty ^

SECURITY :

REVIEW DATE fq

OTHER RELEVANT COMMENTS FOR

INCORPORATION IN DECISION MEMO.
(Continued Overleaf) :

AUTHORISED
Appendix XV (141) (l)(c)
 .. .... • '
-
. - -..V.. : Credit M e e t i n g ^ d 23rd/March,^v 1979 it^ras
the above loan for a further period to 31st ^ly,1979 at l% rixea. ^
No formal facility letter issued : John Collins of
been advised...: »
iV'.-V'
> '
•it .

.V'T

PO'D/SM
23rd March, 1979.

T T
Appendix XV (141) (l)(d)
Our Raf» TRLiAB

23rd. August 1979

Mr. Chris Woodward.

Herm House,
Mont du Coin,
St.Aubin,
Jersey.
C.I.

Dear Chris,
At Martin's request I have sent for collection the U.S.Dollar
cheque for 2,250.00 recently sent to him. This will be credited
to an account with B.M.C.T. under the designation G.M.C.T. "CW"
Call Deposit Account.

Yours sincerely.

BANKING MANAGER
Appendix XV (141) (l)(e)
 P. O'D to T. R. L 12th October 1977

I attach a photo-copy of a letter addressed by John Collins

to J.D.T. in connection with loans in the name of C.D. Woodward,
X V ' -

The loans recently matured, hence my telex enquiry to

) John Furze, on the instructions of J.D.T. requesting possible
"" extentions in respect of the loans.
% ' • •'
Perhaps you would kindly spare a few moments in order that
we might discuss the position.

P. O'Dwyer

c.c. ll.C.K

PO'D/AC

P. O'Dwyer

PO'D/AC
Appendix XV (141) Mr Ronald Warren Woss
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Ronald Warren Woss.

a) Letter of 7 May 1993 - Hamilton Ross Co Limited to IIB.

b) Internal IIB memo of 1 July 1992 - Ronan Redmond to Maureen Collins.

c) Letter of 29 August 1990 - Ansbacher Limited to Guinness and Mahon.

d) Extract of transcript of evidence of Mr Sam Field-Corbett dated 31 July

2001.
Appendix XV (141) (1) (a)
 PJO. BO* H7, OmA CtpmK C q w hta*. Brfciah Wot ladfe
Tctapboae:(109)9494633 Tde*:CP430J
££^5144*763065 RoirtlrdW)949-7946. 009,949.3367
Fax: 6613005
7th May, 1993.
Ronan Redmond, Bsq.,
Corporate Services,
Irish Intercontinental Bank Limited, '
91 Kerrion Square,

Dear Ronan,
Could you pleaie arrange to traoifer 8tg.£4,300.00 as quickly
as possible to:
Barclays Bank tic
ei fleet Str««c
London BC4Y 1ST
for credit to: Account CV Travel
Account No.60287377
with a notation "Corfu Reservation - R.N. Vos«w
/
Pleas* debit the cost to Hamilton Rosa Account Ref. A/A26
No.19/39244/61.
Yours sine®rely.
P
I
h
For m
JLt*. A*
rot HAMILTON ROSS CO. LIMITED

JDT/AJW

looazx.
Appendix XV (141) (1) (b)
 IRISH INTERCONTINENTAL BANK
INTERNAL MEMO

Prom: wwmin
CC: TOOT BARNES

Subject: JLRSBACBKR Dabs: 1 JULy, 1992

Discussed with Marl* Xavanagh the idea of

making the first pick up time at 10.30
(instead of 12.00). This would allow mm to
receive Ansbacher cheques (requested the
nicest bef^e) before collection time at 11.00.
This has been mentioned to Paula in Payments
an* «*»»« is also <» «"»irfc.

Inititally requested cm 30/4/91. Pax includes

weekly statement plus accrued interest (to
Wednesday) and interest earned (but not
applied) overnight, to thursday.
Sam Field Corbett faxes out reports of our
telexes oil Thursday afternoon to Australia.
Pax 3 pages once per week:

EBSH&JS&fiLS*. Uaunlly 1 or 2 per day, this would account

for instructions on fixed deposits,
transfers etc.
* •« •»
COURIERS. 1 per week, bringing over weekly statements,
advice slips and confirmations. Sometimes
include cheques aa well.
• 'K?'* -

SOMAN RBQMOND,
CORPORATE SERVICES.

led 37-
Appendix XV (141) (1) (c)
 Ansbacher Limii
A Mmbtr tftht Htnrj Ambadttr BoUngi PLC Uvdrnt Banking Ci

Pleaae reply to: P.O. Box 817, Grend Csymsn, British West fin
Phone (805) 949-465:
42 FfczwiHiam Square, TotacCPC
Dublin 2. Fus (S09) 949-7S
Tel: 765144/763065 (®9J 94M2
Ear 612035

29th August, 1990

M. David Humphries, Esq.,
Senior Manages - Operations,
Guinness a Mahon Limited,
17 College Green,
DUBLIH 2.

Dear David,
X think ay visit vaster5-, Ima finally sorted out the
""tstox^ing points in your letter of the 13th August.
(a) z left with you copy Statement showing different
value dates re A$200,000.. You will have adjusted.
(b) D.P.C. is opening a new A/A26 Sterling Account.
Someone will ring Sam Field-Corbett or his Secretary,
Mary, each Thursday morning giving a note of Interest
accrued.
(c) i went through with Martin the file, as a
result, of which he is letting me have soma documentation.
(d) ' We agreed that you would eliminate "blocked account".
You will of course ensure that the various accounts
^ remain effectively blocked.
MSny thanks for your help.
Yours sincerely.

jT-.D. Traynor

Jdt/ajw
 r^

11
12 HR. TIFTJ) CORBET* WAS THICK gQRTHER EXAMXMgD BY JUDGE
12 O'LE3.TT AS rCLLOWS:
14
15 JUDGE O*LEAKY: Mr. Field-Corbett, tell me
16 about the Diamond trust?
17 A. The Diamond trust is a Cayman trust managed and
^ 18 controlled in Cayman and, I understood, John Furze
19 and Des were the Trustees. It is a discretionary
20 trust. It involved quite a lot of buying and
21 selling shares in Australia mainly. The people
22 involved were Rcr. Woss , John Farz^.
23 They were the three involved. I had not much
24 involvement before Des died. It only became
25 important to me after Des died and the reason was
26 that it required attention. It is one of the
27 situations that I had a lot of activity on. The
28 reason was that it needed day-to-day attention and
29 P&draig was not able to give it because he was
65
1 working and that's why I got involved in it.
2 341 Q. I wonder Mr. Field-Corbett, would you think again
3 and we will consider that answer about whether you
4 had an involvement, a significant involvement with
5 this Trust prior to Mr. Traynor's death.
6 A. The Diamond trust.
7 342 Q. Yes, the Diamond trust had accounts, had they?
8 A. A bank account, yes.
9 343 Q. What was it?
10 A. A/A26.
11 344 Q. You are saying that up to the time Mr. Traynor died
12 you had little or no involvement with that
13 operation, is that what you are saying?
14 A. That would be my recollection, yes.
15 345 Q. Mr. Field Corbett, you are not suffering from any
16 disease which would impair your memory now, are you?
17 A. I don't know.
18 346 Q. I can say to you straight out that the records of
19 IIB are littered with references to you and this
20 trust prior to the death of Mr. Traynor. What have
21 you got to say about that.
22 MR. 7ULLAM: Perhaps, Chairman, if you
23 put them to him.
24 JUDGE O'LEARY: No, I will do it in my own
25 way. Now, what do you
26 say about.that, Mr. Field Corbett?
27 A. I can only give you my recollection.
28 347 Q. Did you or did you not on a weekly basis send faxes
29 on behalf of that company to Australia?
\

1 Bank statements?
2 Yes?
3 They were sent to us as a conduit.
4 Did you do it every week?
5 My secretary did it.
6 Why did you not tell me that?
7 I had forgotten about it.
8 Mr. Field-Corbett, this is a most, 1 mean, I do not
9 want to be here at all, I would much prefer to be at
10 home but why do you say you had no involvement when
11 every week...
12 I got bank statements in, we faxed them off and that
13 was ail I did.
14 Who did you fax them to?
15 To Ron Woss in Australia.
16 Have you copies of those?
17 No.
18 What address was it?
19 I do not remember the address.
20 What number did you fax it to?
21 I would not have it off-hand.
22 Can you get it for me?
23 Yes.
24 Will you do that, please?
25 Yes.
26 Now, Mr. Field-Corbett, who were the beneficial
27 owners of that?
28 I do not know. The only people that were ever
29 involved in that are as follows: John Furze, Ron
1 Woss and • To my knowledge
2 was the stockbroker. Ron Woss was the advisor and
3 he has, actually, told me it is not his and the only
4 fellow left is John Furze.
5 359 Q. It was not John Furze?
6 A. I do not know.
7 360 Q. Was it Mr. Traynor's?
8 A. Not to my knowledge.
9 361 Q. Did you ever communicate directly with Mr. Furze
10 about this?
11 A. On a few occasions, yes.
12 362 Q When, before or after Mr. Traynor died?
1o T.. Afte*- Mr. Traynor died
14 363 Q. Before that Mr. Furze was not involved at all as far
15 as you were concerned?
16 A. Yes, exactly.
17 364 Q. Do you remember how you were first employed?
18 A. To do what.
19 365 Q. You tell me, employed by this trust?
20 A. If you are going back to the bank statements Des
21 would have asked me to do that.
22 366 Q. Did you get paid fo: it?
23 A. I am sure we did.
24 367 Q. Do you know how much you got paid?
25 A. No, it was very menial. The secretary used to do
26 it.
27 368 Q. Did you ever meet Mr. Woss?
28 A. Yes, I met him at the funeral.
29 369 Q. Did you believe, based on your knowledge, that Mr.
68
1 Woss is the beneficial owner?
2 A. I can say to you that he has told me he is not.
3 370 Q. What about that other gentleman?
4 A. Craig Carter was a stockbroker, I do not know.
5 371 Q. Mr. Furze?
6 A. Possibly.
7 372 Q. Why would Mr. Furze be using Ireland to get
8 involved in buying and selling shares in Australia.
9 That would not make any sense?
10 A. I have only conjecture on that point.
11 373 Q. Have you any knowledge, Mr. Field-Corbett?
12 A. No.
13 374 Q. As to why a person, why Mr. Furze should use this
14 convoluted Irish system to get involved in
15 speculation in Australia?
16 A. I have no information about that.
17 375 Q. Would you give Mr. Field-Corbett documents number 1
18 to 89, the whole lot.
19 DOCUMENTED HANDED TO MR. Field-Corbett.
20 376 Q. These are a sample of the documents. Now, looking
21 at the first document is it fair to stay that this
22 project, this Australian project, was carried out
23 both through Guinness & Mahon and IIB (Exhibit 22)?
24 A. Yes, it seems to be.
25 377 Q. Were you involved at both stages or only at the IIB
26 stage?
27 A. IIB stage.
28 378 Q. Would you look at page two (Exhibit 23)?
29 A. Yes, that's about the statements.
 1 Would you look who it is from. It is from Ansbacher
2 to whom, Guinness & Mahon, not to IIB ?
3 Yes, we discussed that earlier.
4 No, in the last series of questions I asked were you
5 involved in this at the Guinness & Mahon stage or at
6 the IIB stage and you said the' IIB stage. The
7 document number two shows you were involved.
8 That was just a transfer of the bank statements
9 (Exhibit 2).
10 That on the 15th of February 1990 you were asked or
11 a gentleman was asked to give you a statement of
12 account every Thursday?
1^ I have already gone o w point- That was just
14 purely the bank statements.
15 I will ask you the same question as I asked of you
16 in the beginning. Were you involved in this project
17 at the Guinness & Mahon stage or the IIB stage?
18 We sent bank statements in the Guinness & Mahon
19 stage.
20 What about in the IIB stage?
21 We would have sent bank statements as well.
22 You were involved in both?
23 Yes, at that level.
24 We know that from the 15th of February 1990 right up
25 to the end of the venture after the death of Mr.
26 Traynor, up as far as 1996, for over 6 years you
27 were involved in this if only sending on weekly
28 statements?
29 Yes.
 1 Have you no idea who the beneficial owner is?
2 I have just gone through that with you. The only
3 people I have spoken to or had any discussions with
4 were, obviously, Des, John Furze, and the two
5 Australians.
6 What did Mr. Traynor tell you? •
7 Mr. Traynor wouldn't tell you anything unless you
8 needed to know. Obviously in the Guinness & Mahon
9 stage he said, send them around to Sam. Sam, send
10 them off to Woss and that is what I did.
11 If you look at page number 6 (Exhibit 24). The page
12 numbers are down at the bottom right-hand corner,
13 Mr. field-Corbett. Do you see the bottom right-hand
14 corner?
15 I see that.
16 Now, that is a payment into the account of Mr.
17 Traynor. Is it possible that Mr. Traynor was a
18 beneficiary of this?
19 How can I tell you when I do. not know.
20 It is like this, Mr. Field-Corbett, I have been in
21 business a long time myself and I know that when you
22 are dealing with a project over a long period of
23 time you acquire certain knowledge which, literally,
24 nobody tells you but you pick it up from
25 conversations. That is the kind of knowledge I am
26 after. I know it is imperfect knowledge, I
27 understand that and I have to treat it accordingly
28 but you cannot deal with an account like this audit
29 for 6 years without picking up some information
1 about it?
2 The initial activity was very small. My staff
3 members, my secretary did it, sent it off. It was
4 after Des's death that we only really got involved.
5 You see at page 14 (Exhibit 25).
6 "DPC is opening a new A/A26'Sterling
Account. Somebody will ring
7 Sam Field-Corbett or his Secretary,
Mary, each Thursday morning giving a
8 note of interest accrued."
9 Who is Mary?
10 My ex-secretary.
11 What is her name?
12 Simpson?
13 Where does she live?
14 Somewhere in Beaumont.
15 Do you have her address?
16 Off-hand, no.
17 Do you know where she is working now?
18 I do not think she works. I think she got married
19 and stayed at home.
20 What is her married name?
21 I do not know, I can get it for you.
22 Would you do that?
23 Yes.
24 Thank you. If you would look at page 16 (Exhibit
25 26) :
26
"A/A26. The weekly application of
27 interest on 13154173 account has been
reverted to monthly. As agreed, we
28 will now phone advise Sam Field-Corbett
every Thursday morning with the
29 interest accrued figure on the
following account."
72
1 It is the same thing.
2 Then page 18 (Exhibit 27), a payment of A$4,200 to
3 John Desmond Traynor. Do you know anything about
4 that?
5 No.
6 When did they start faxing you' rather than phoning
7 you with the information?
8 I think what they are doing there is giving the
9 interest accrued.
10 When did they start faxing you that information
11 rather than phoning you?
12 I wouldn't have an idea.
13 If you look at page 20 (Exhibit 28) it might assist
14 you in that regard?
15 That's when they started faxing me.
16 Again, all this, everything we have done so far is
17 in the Guinness & Mahon stage?
18 That is right.
19 Notwithstanding the fact that the first thing that
20 you told me was it was only IIB. How much did they
21 pay, Mr. Field-Corbett, for this service?
22 A couple of hundred dollars.
23 A couple of hundred dollars when, a month or a week?
24 No, not a week.
25 A month?
26 A month.
27 Would it be $750 a month?
28 I don't think so, no, maybe, maybe. You are talking
29 about 10 years ago. Do you remember a small fee of
1 $750 10 years ago?
2 410 Q. You do not know in other words?
3 A. I don't know.
4 411 Q. Now, if you look at page 32 (Exhibit 29). This is
5 an internal IIB document which says under FAXES:
6 "Initially requested on 30/4/91. Fax
includes weekly statement plus accrued
7 interest (to Wednesday) and interest
earned (but not applied) overnight, to
8 Thursday. Sam Field-Corbett faxes out
reports of our telexes on Thursday
9 afternoon to Australia. Fax 3 pages
once per week."
10
11 412 Q. Is that accurate?
12 A. It is there.
13 413 Q. Is i: accurate, is that what was happening?
14 A. Yes, but that is just confirming what we were doing.
15 414 Q. Is that an accurate description of what occurred.
16 Take as long as you want to consider that?
17 A. Yes.
18 415 Q. It is accurate?
19 A. Yes.
20 416 Q. According to that it was reports of the telexes you
21 were faxing out rather than telexes themselves?
22 A. No, they are the bank statements.
23 417 Q. Mr. Field-Corbett, I asked you to look at it, to
24 look at it carefully and what it says is, and you
25 confirmed having looked at it carefully that Sam
26 Field-Corbett faxes out reports of our telexes on
27 Thursday. You used to write a report to them?
28 A. Not at that stage.
29 418 Q. Did you later?
Yes.
When?
We just wrote out the bank statement, I don't recall
the time. You are asking me to recall things that
are incredible.
Did you write out any comment on it?
We would only have been writing what went through
the bank statements.
If you look at page 36 (Exhibit 30). This is an
internal IIB document and that is what they were
supposed to do. If you look down under lb A/A26
accounts interest applied weekly and then if you
louk at page 36, again, the weekly standing order
was every Thursday this had to be done, this A/A26.
Now, do you remember being instructed to send out
this A/A26 statements on a weekly basis?
No.
Do you know who instructed you to do it?
I assume it was Des.
Was that an assumption or what you, actually,
remember?
It is an assumption.
Could it have been Mr. Woss for example?
It is possible.
Could it have been Mr. Furze?
No, not at that stage. Mr. Furze did not take over
the thing until Des died.
If look at page 48 (Exhibit 31). This, again, was
during a period of time when Mr. Traynor was still
 1 alive. Carnmore Holdings, do you know anything about
2 that company?
3 A. I think it was an account we used. That was probably
4 a payment to us.
5 427 Q. If you like that was a flag of convenience to pay
6 your fees?
7 A. Yes, correct.
8 428 Q. I am not interested in that. Now, would you look
9 at the next page, page 49 (Exhibit 32)?
10 A. Yes.
11 429 Q. This is after Mr. Traynor died but it was done by
12 Williams. This $295,000, do you know anything
13 aLwut that payment?
14 A. No.
15 430 Q. That was before you started organising them, would
16 that be a fair point?
17 A. That to me is correct.
18 MS. MACKEY: Who would have instructed
19 Ms. Williams to do that,
20 Mr. Field-Corbett.
21 A. That would have been either John Furze or Ron Woss,
22 one of them or even PSdraig, I don't actually know.
Appendix XV (142) Mr Douglas Armstrong
1. Evidence relied upon by the Inspectors in arriving at the conclusion relating to Mr
Douglas Armstrong.

a) Transcript of evidence of Mr Douglas Armstrong dated 31 January 2001.

b) Letter of 15 December 2000 to Inspectors from Douglas Armstrong.

c) Statement of Douglas Armstrong of 15 December 2000.

d) Letter from Michael Pender to BA Ursell of 24 December 1986.

e) Internal Guinness and Mahon memo of 14 June 1991.

f) Guinness and Mahon Credit Committee Minute of 13 May 1977.

g) Guinness and Mahon Credit Committee Minute of 14 December 1977.

h) Guinness and Mahon Credit Committee Minute - loan extension to 20

September 1986.

i) Guinness and Mahon Credit Memo of 30 September 1985.

j) Guinness and Mahon Credit Committee Minute of 5 November 1986.

k) Guinness and Mahon Credit Committee Minute of 1 June 1988.

1) Guinness and Mahon Credit Committee Application of 25 April 1990.

m) Companies Registration Office return - Armstrong Electronics Ltd.

Appendix XV (142) (1) (a)
 MR. DOUGLAS ARMSTRONG

UNDER OATH

WEDNESDAY, 31ST JANUARY 2001

I hereby certify the

following to be a true and

accurate transcript of my

shorthand notes in the

above named interview.

Stenographer
THE INSPECTORS: MR. MICHAEL CUSH S.C.

JUDGE SEAN 0'LEARY

SOLICITOR TO THE INSPECTORS: MS. M. CUMMINS

INTERVIEWEE: MR. DOUGLAS ARMSTRONG

 2 31ST JANUARY 2001

4 MR. CUSH: Mr. Armstrong, for the

5 record I am one of the

6 Inspectors to Ansbacher. This is Judge Sean

7 O'Leary, he is another Inspector. This morning I am

8 going to ask you some questions and if there are any

9 questions after that, Judge O'Leary will ask them.

10

11 If you would not mind taking the oath to begin with.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

3
 2 EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY THE INSPECTORS

4 1 Q. MR. CUSH: Mr. Armstrong, we have

5 your statement, Exhibit 1,

6 thank you very much for that, and the documents that

7 you sent in with it. I will just tell you what I

8 understand your business to have been and if I am

9 wrong, then you can correct me. You are the

10 Principal of a number of companies, one of which is

11 Armstrong Electronics Limited, another of which is

12 Armstrong Space Communications and another of which

13 is Wilfield Securities Limited; is that right?

14 A. Correct.

15 2 Q. These are companies which in general terms operate

16 in the electronics business?

17 A. Correct.

18 3 Q. I think maybe you began with TV rental and moved on

19 to importation of TVs and then electronic equipment

20 generally and satellite information systems for

21 bookmakers and the like?

22 A. That's correct.

23 4 Q. Was the principal trading company Armstrong

24 Electronics?

25 A. It was, but in the early days Armstrong Electrical

26 was, which was disposed of in the early 1980's.

27 5 Q. I think maybe more recently you expanded activities

28 into Europe, is that right?

29 A. Yes, we had a go at Poland but burned our fingers

4
 1 and we now are running a service for exporting

2 products out of Ireland direct to customers in

3 Europe.

4 6 Q. You are using a Jersey based company for your

5 non-Irish activities, is that right?

6 A. Not at the moment, no. We did at one time.

7 7 Q. You did at one time, okay. Mr. Jack Stakelum is a

8 man you have probably known for many years now, is

9 that so?

10 A. Correct, yes.

11 8 Q. Did you know him first from his Haughey Boland days?

12 A. Yes, I think I probably met him when I moved to

13 Haughey Boland. I think he was a partner or

14 certainly when the audit was done, you went and

15 discussed your accounts and your financial situation

16 with him and got to know him quite well because at

17 that time I was -- well, dare I say in financial

18 difficulties.

19 9 Q. Was that your first contact with him, through

20 Haughey Boland?

21 A. Yes.

22 10 Q. When he left Haughey Boland, I think you maintained

23 a business relationship with him?

24 A. Yes.

25 11 Q. He in fact became a Director?

26 A. He became a Director of the company, yes.

27 12 Q. Did he furnish financial advice generally to the

28 company then?

29 A. Yes.

5
 1 13 Q. And to yourself and your late wife also?

2 A. Yes .

3 14 Q. Did you know Mr. Traynor?

4 A. I met Mr. Traynor on a few occasions in the bank.

5 He actually became a customer, he rented televisions

6 from me. In fact I was in his house once when I met

7 him and I think I had a cup of tea with him.

8 15 Q. When you say you met him in the bank, that would

9 have been some time in the 1970's, is that right, or

10 later?

11 A. I didn't have much contact with him and you never

12 met him for long. He was in and out and gone and I

13 think I wasn't a player that he dealt with normally

14 or the level of player he dealt with, so it was in,

15 out and gone. I would have met him two, three or

16 four times.

17 16 Q. MR. O'LEARY: Was he in Guinness & Mahon

18 at that time?

19 A. Yes, but he continued to be a customer who I

20 wouldn't have dealt with in the subsequent years

21 when we were renting televisions up to some time in

22 the 1980's when we stopped.

23 17 Q. MR. CUSH: Speaking about Guinness

24 & Mahon, I think you first

25 had some dealings with them in 1972; is that right?

26 A. You can probably check the exact date, but it was

27 about a month after GEC in Dunleer went bankrupt.

28 You may remember them, they were Telefunken

29 distributors and used to make washing machines and

 1 dishwashers.

2 18 Q. You thought it would have been around that

3 ...(INTERJECTION)?

4 A. I tried to get the Telefunken agency and I needed

5 funding. I already had funding from a place down

6 opposite Battersbys, it used to be Battersbys and

7 there is a hotel there now, Investment Trust or

8 National Investment Trust or somebody and they used

9 to block discount my television rentals. They also

10 had money from Bank of Ireland, they are now in

11 Ballsbridge. Anyway, it turned to be Bank of

12 Ireland finance eventually, but we were trying to

13 get money to import the televisions because the

14 Germans would not give credit. I approached people

15 I had already been getting money from. There was

16 another company, a company belonging to Pye in South

17 William Street. Credit Finance might have been the

18 name of it, but it was a Pye subsidiary anyway and

19 we were buying Pye televisions but you could only

20 get finance on Pye televisions through them. To get

21 independent finance to bring sets in from Germany I

22 tried the usual, the three main banks which was no

23 go, Jack Stakelum and I am sure he arranged it, I

24 don't know who arranged it but whoever arranged it,

25 and I tried to get money from Guinness & Mahon but

26 didn't succeed at that time. I met Des Traynor at

27 that stage and I thought I was getting it and then

28 they pulled out.

29 19 Q. Was that your first meeting with Des Traynor?

7
 1 A. Yes, I think so.

2 20 Q. That appears to be 1972 or thereabouts?

3 A. Around that time, yes.

4 21 Q. I think you did eventually in fact have dealings,

5 successful dealings if you like with Guinness &

6 Mahon in 1974?

7 A. That's correct, yes.

8 22 Q. From that time on then you had a variety of

9 facilities ?

10 A. Yes, I have always paid my bills, I paid on time and

11 if I was behind I would ring him and say, 'listen, I

12 can't pay you until next week' and that seemed to

13 work.

14 23 Q. Mr. Stakelum seemed to be the man who dealt largely

15 on your behalf?

16 A. Yes. Being honest, he was the professional to make

17 a bank application, not me. I would still use a

18 professional today if I was looking for an

19 application.

20 24 Q. Was it he who advised you to approach Guinness &

21 Mahon in the first instance?

22 A. I am sure it was. I don't recall, but I am sure it

23 was. I wouldn't have known him otherwise.

24 25 Q. We have some documentation from yourself,

25 Mr. Armstrong, in relation to your dealings with

26 Guinness & Mahon and then we have other documents as

27 well in relation to your dealings with Guinness &

28 Mahon. Throughout the documents that we have there

29 are references to your various facilities being

 1 "suitably secured". That is a term which we

2 understand to mean that the facilities are secured

3 by cash deposit usually held offshore. Is that the

4 position in your case?

5 A. Absolutely, I didn't have a bean. In fact, some

6 time in 1976 or 1977 there was a personal audit done

7 by Jack Stakelum on me, and he reckoned my total

8 assets taking everything into consideration was

9 something like £3,500, impossible.

10 26 Q. Is it the case then that you are telling us clearly

11 that you did not at any stage, either you or your

12 companies have a cash deposit?

13 A. Actually my late wife, and only when the documents

14 came -- we had been burgled three times at home

15 including the last time when we were cleaned out in

16 the early 1980's, so no money was kept at home at

17 all. My late wife was great at saving her money for

18 holidays or changing her car. In fact to my

19 surprise, she had a deposit account for, I think,

20 £1,500 and I made reference to it in my statement,

21 Exhibit 1. In fact I never knew she had it.

22 MR. O'LEARY: We do not have the

23 slightest interest in

24 £1,000.

25 A. That was the amount.

26 MR. O'LEARY: You can ignore that.

27 A. You asked me for a full and frank statement.

28 27 Q. MR. CUSH: We have no difficulty with

29 that. For the record I

9
 1 would be anxious to be absolutely clear about this,

2 your evidence is that at no time did you or your

3 companies hold a cash deposit in the Channel

4 Islands ?

5 A. No, not in the Channel Islands but we did put money

6 on short-term deposit when we had cash available.

7 28 Q. Where would you have banked that?

8 A. All in College Green and it would have been taken

9 out maybe a week later. There was one time you were

10 getting something crazy like 36% overnight or

11 something like that.

12 29 Q. MR. O'LEARY: I think Mr. Cush is also

13 indicating in his question

14 that your company did not have a deposit either?

15 A. My company would have put the money in short-term

16 deposit.

17 30 Q. Neither you or your company had money on deposit

18 abroad?

19 A. No, not abroad, no.

20 31 Q. Is that true?

21 A. That is true, yes

22 32 Q. MR. CUSH: Is it the case,

23 Mr. Armstrong, that

24 somebody else or some other company may have been

25 allowing you avail of a cash deposit as security?

26 A. I didn't have it.

27 33 Q. Did Mr. Stakelum ever say anything to you about

28 there being cash deposits which might secure your

29 facilities with Guinness & Mahon?

 1 A. No. The only time Mr. Stakelum ever secured

2 anything for me was when I had a row with the Ulster

3 Bank here in Blackrock and I moved to AIB, he signed

4 a guarantee with me in AIB. That was some time in

5 the early 1980's because they would not give me the

6 facility I needed and he signed the guarantee with

7 me in the 1980's. That is the only guarantee I am

8 aware of. I actually mentioned that to him probably

9 a year ago and he says he does not even recall it,

10 but I know he did because when I got the guarantees

11 back, because I don't have a personal guarantee with

12 AIB anymore, when we were sufficiently in the black

13 or sufficiently solvent, I asked for my guarantees

14 back when I moved branch.

15 34 Q. Okay. If there are documents which make reference

16 to your companies and to yourself and your late wife

17 and they have the description "suitably secured",

18 you are not in a position to throw any light on

19 that?

20 A. In 1974 was the first time I got a loan. My late

21 wife had to sign a guarantee, I had to sign a

22 guarantee and they took debentures on my two

23 companies. At the time there were legal fees of

24 something like £600 or £700 and I eventually had to

25 pay that, I didn't think I would have to pay that

26 but I did pay it.

27 35 Q. MR. 0'LEARY: I think in fairness to

28 you, Mr. Armstrong, I

29 should point out to you that the way in which the

11
 1 system worked in Guinness & Mahon was that people

2 who borrowed money, and sometimes it was an ordinary

3 transaction, but people who borrowed money for

4 genuine reasons, if they had money offshore they

5 were reported within the bank as having adequate

6 security or suitable security. That did not mean

7 that they did not also have to sign a personal

8 guarantee, do you understand? So we have many cases

9 of people who gave mortgages on their property, who

10 gave personal guarantees but also had money

11 offshore.

12 A. I'll tell you one thing, I didn't have money, I

13 didn't have the money. It would be a nice problem

14 if I had it, I wouldn't have had to go to them.

15 36 Q. Does the word "College Trustees" mean anything to

16 you?

17 A. No.

18 37 Q. MR. CUSH: Mr. Stakelum never spoke

19 to you about College

20 Trustees?

21 A. No, never heard of them. In fact he never discussed

22 anybody else's business or even his own. In fact

23 when I cribbed about his charges, he always said

24 look, the cost of running a business was such and

25 they were the charges at that time. In fact we had

26 a severe disagreement in the mid 1990's over

27 charges.

28 MR. CUSH: If you just give us three

29 minutes.

12
 1 MR. O'LEARY: We want to discuss

2 something among ourselves

3 and we will be back to you.

6 (SHORT ADJOURNMENT)

8 MR. CUSH: I just want to go back a

9 little bit, Mr. Armstrong,

10 if we may. In relation to the companies of which I

11 described you as the Principal, are you in fact the

12 Principal of all of those companies.

13 A. Yes.

14 38 Q. You are the beneficial owner really of those

15 companies?

16 A. Well, 10% is owned by one of my directors and the

17 rest is owned by me. Now, there is another company

18 which I didn't list there, Websat, which when it was

19 founded my children became shareholders and I'm a

20 shareholder.

21 39 Q. What about Wilfield Securities?

22 A. Wilfield is 100% owned by me, maybe 99% and 1%, I

23 don't know.

24 40 Q. Is Mr. Stakelum the 10% owner to which you referred

25 to?

26 A. No.

27 41 Q. Moving then to your Guinness & Mahon dealings, who

28 did you deal with in the bank?

29 A. It was mostly for Letters of Credit. Who was I

13
 1 dealing with, was it McLoughlin?

2 42 Q. Yes, Mr. McLoughlin. Did you deal with Mr. O'Dwyer?

3 A. Yes, I think so.

4 43 Q. Anybody else you can recall?

5 A. I always remember that when you rang the phone, the

6 lady that answered the phone had an incredible

7 accent on the phone.

8 44 Q. You had dealings with personnel in the bank?

9 A. I wouldn't say I had dealings, I didn't have to

10 other than on the business transactions.

11 45 Q. Of course, and Mr. Stakelum had dealings on your

12 behalf?

13 A. The only time I would have dealings was when I ran

14 into trouble with interest overdue.

15 46 Q. If you needed an extension of a facility which you

16 did from year to year, Mr. Stakelum would meet with

17 the bank?

18 A. Yes, he would normally deal with that, yes.

19 47 Q. He would update them on the affairs of the company?

20 A. On the staff of the company, that's right, yes.

21 48 Q. He would apply for and post 1974 he got an extension

22 of the facility, is that not so?

23 A. Yes .

24 49 Q. Were you part of those meetings with the bank?

25 A. I probably was in the bank -- well, I would go to

26 the counter occasionally. When I say occasionally,

27 other people would be in a lot more often than me,

28 staff would be picking up drafts, dropping off

29 drafts, dropping off letters of credit. I remember

 1 that day you could park nearly outside the front

2 door and get away with it for a couple of minutes.

3 50 Q. Mr. Armstrong, I want to return to the "suitably

4 secured" designation. I want you to understand that

5 we know and we have been told that that description

6 "suitably secured" means that the loan is backed or

7 secured by a cash deposit elsewhere. Do you

8 understand now ...(INTERJECTION)?

9 A. Yes, I understand.

10 51 Q. How much we do know. I want to show you some

11 documents which are Guinness & Mahon documents which

12 describe your companies' facilities as being

13 suitably secured. I will begin, if I may, with the

14 document that begins at page 68 of our book. (SAME

15 HANDED TO MR. ARMSTRONG). The document you have

16 there, Mr. Armstrong, is largely blacked out because

17 the full copy refers to another person. This is a

18 Guinness & Mahon document, do you follow me,

19 Exhibit 2?

20 A. Yes.

21 52 Q. Do you see there that it begins with:

22 "Bruce

23 As requested, I list hereunder

particulars of the accounts for which
24 we are holding backing deposits from
Guinness Mahon Cayman Trust."
25

26 Do you see that?

27 A. Yes.

28 53 Q. Then there are some paragraphs and then A, B, C and

29 then sub-paragraph D which you will see:

15
 1 "College Trustee clients have arranged
backing deposits here through GMCT."
2

3 Do you see that?

4 A. Yes I see it, yes.

5 54 Q. Then you see the reference further down there to

6 Armstrong Electronics?

7 A. Yes, I see it there.

8 55 Q. There are a number of other documents with similar

9 information not limited to Armstrong Electronics but

10 referring also to Wilfield Securities and also to

11 Armstrong Space, that is another of your companies?

12 A. Space was a name, it would have been Gemini

13 originally.

14 56 Q. Mr. Armstrong, those are statements emanating from

15 the bank to the effect that your companies'

16 facilities are suitably secured?

17 A. Well, I had no money.

18 57 Q. Be very careful now, are you saying that you

19 personally had no money that was acting as a cash

20 security?

21 A. Yes, absolutely.

22 58 Q. Are you saying that none of your companies

23 ...(INTERJECTION)?

24 A. No.

25 59 Q. Are you also telling the Inspectors that no other

26 person of whom you are aware?

27 A. No other person of whom I am aware.

28 60 Q. By that do you mean to say that you may not know the

29 identity of the person? Are you aware that some

16
 1 person may have been providing cash security?

2 A. There is nobody I know that has told me they have

3 guaranteed it or there is nobody I asked to

4 guarantee it.

5 61 Q. Mr. Armstrong, have you some inkling that somebody

6 was providing cash?

7 A. Put it this way; it was arranged by Jack Stakelum, I

8 certainly asked him because that point was mentioned

9 to me by somebody else and I certainly didn't

10 guarantee it. He said I have no recollection of

11 guaranteeing it either. Therefore, I don't know and

12 I can't say if Joe Bloggs down the street walked in

13 and guaranteed it, I don't know about it.

14 62 Q. You say this point was raised by somebody else, who

15 do you mean?

16 A. Originally, this is not the first Tribunal I have

17 gone to, the very first one was down in the Castle

18 and they raised the same issue and it came up in

19 discussion then. The same issue arose as you are

20 raising today. It was discussed at that time.

21 63 Q. You discussed it then with Mr. Stakelum at that

22 time?

23 A. Yes, probably at that time and he said I have no

24 recollection, he says, 'I certainly didn't guarantee

25 it' as far as I recall but he didn't say 'yes' or

26 'no'.

27 64 Q. Do you understand that we are not speaking about

28 guarantees, we are speaking about a cash deposit?

29 A. There is no question of that in my case. I know

17
 1 nobody that I ever asked or had the money or had

2 control of the money to deposit. I didn't have it.

3 If I had it, I probably would have been looking for

4 the money.

5 MR. O'LEARY: There is another document

6 which Mr. Cush is going to

7 put to you. It is a better document in some ways

8 because it deals exclusively with your company.

9 (SAME HANDED TO MR. ARMSTRONG). Apparently it is a

10 1991 document and apparently it is a GMI document

11 which was included in the authorised officer's

12 report into Ansbacher. If you like, we are

13 following on from what the authorised officer has

14 done and he found this document and he included it

15 in his report, Exhibit 3.

16 MR. CUSH: If you just read it

17 through, Mr. Armstrong.

18 A. Who is CAW?

19 MR. O'LEARY: I presume, Mr. Armstrong,

20 it would be better if you

21 told us who CAW is because you were at the meeting,

22 I was not at the meeting at all.

23 A. I don't recall.

24 65 Q. This is not a 1974 document at all, this is a 1991

25 document.

26 A. Okay, 1991.

27 66 Q. MR. CUSH: That is a document,

28 Exhibit 3, recording what

29 you were telling the officials of the bank, is that

18
 1 not so?

2 A. I assume so, yes.

3 67 Q. You are describing there, are you not, a reasonably

4 healthy trading situation for the company?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 68 Q. "Fairly liquid" I think was the description you

7 used?

8 A. Yes .

9 69 Q. There is mention also of £230,000 being held on

10 short-term deposit with AIB, is that not so?

11 A. Yes .

12 70 Q. Therefore there was cash available to the company at

13 that time?

14 A. Now, one of the things that you must bear in mind is

15 up to 1987 it was a very tough market and we were

16 fortunate to get into the satellite business. We

17 got a major contract with SIS which we made huge

18 profits on, every betting shop in the country. 1998

19 was the first good year we ever had and from that

20 time forward we did extremely well.

21 71 Q. So from 1998 you made huge profit?

22 A. Sorry, 1988.

23 72 Q. You made a huge profit?

24 A. Well, not huge, but certainly in hindsight we were

25 way ahead of anything we ever made.

26 73 Q. You did well from there on in?

27 A. Yes .

28 74 Q. You had cash on deposit?

29 A. Yes .
 1 75 Q. The bank were expressing a willingness to quote for

2 deposits?

3 A. Yes.

4 76 Q. Did you put money on deposit with the bank?

5 A. With Guinness & Mahon?

6 77 Q. Yes.

7 A. No, I don't think we did at that time. It was only

8 when, and you can tell me when better than I can,

9 when there was a financial crisis and interest rates

10 went crazy overnight, I think that was the

11 mid 1980's or whenever it was.

12 78 Q. Did you put money at this time on deposit in the

13 bank?

14 A. I don't think so. No, I don't think so.

15 79 Q. MR. O'LEARY: Who did you buy your

16 supplies abroad from,

17 Mr. Armstrong?

18 A. Supplies were bought in Taiwan, the States, Korea

19 and all sorts of different places.

20 80 Q. Did you do what a lot of businessmen did at that

21 time which was that they arranged that the invoices

22 would be routed through an offshore entity?

23 A. No, never did.

24 81 Q. You never did that?

25 A. No.

26 82 Q. So that you could leave money there?

27 A. No.

28 83 Q. Mr. Armstrong, could I explain something to you

29 about the way we operate so as that you fully

20
 1 understand it.

2 A. Yes .

3 84 Q. We are not in control of our report. We are not

4 independent operators. We are appointed by the High

5 Court and we do not know, nor can we give any

6 guarantee to anyone who comes in here of what will

7 happen to our report. It might lie on a shelf and

8 nobody do anything about it or it could be plastered

9 all over the newspapers. We do not know, it will

10 not be a matter within our control. Do you

11 understand that?

12 A. Yes .

13 85 Q. You said to me that you were interviewed by CAB?

14 A. By?

15 86 Q. You said CAB, was it?

16 A. No, in the first Tribunal.

17 MR. CUSH: The Castle.

18 87 Q. MR. O'LEARY: All right, I understood

19 you said it was CAB.

20 A. No, no.

21 88 Q. It was up in the Castle?

22 A. Yes, the Castle, that's right.

23 89 Q. If our report is published, and I want to make it

24 quite clear we have no control over it and I can

25 assure you it will not decided on what you say,

26 there will be much bigger fish which will decide

27 that.

28 A. I gathered that.

29 90 Q. Ultimately somebody in the High Court or the

 1 Minister or both or a combination of both will

2 decide this is a report which should be published or

3 this is a report which will not be published. If we

4 were to report in that report that you gave us sworn

5 evidence that you had no interest in or knowledge of

6 any money held offshore during that period of time

7 which was used to secure your loans, would you be

8 happy to stand over that in public?

9 A. Yes .

10 91 Q. And it will not cause any embarrassment to you

11 anywhere?

12 A. Yes .

13 92 Q. Do you understand what I am saying now?

14 A. I understand what you are saying.

15 93 Q. MR. CUSH: Mr. Armstrong, so far as

16 you are concerned, the

17 various references in the bank documentation to your

18 companies' loans being "suitably secured", they must

19 be a mistake; is that so?

20 A. Put it this way; I can't comment as to what reason

21 they put it there. I have no grounds to suspect

22 other than that. If there are any or if there is a

23 fairy godmother out there that I am not aware of,

24 great.

25 94 Q. MR. O'LEARY: Would you look at page 57

26 so as nobody is under any

27 misapprehension. (SAME HANDED TO MR. ARMSTRONG).

28 This is a 1977 document, Exhibit 4.

29 A. Someone Kelly signed it.

 1 95 Q. It deals with your company, does it not?

2 A. Yes.

3 96 Q. It said you had a £20,000 loan for trading purposes,

4 there was a rate of 15% per annum and it was

5 suitably secured.

6 A. Yes. Money taken from loan account, that is the way

7 I took it, was it?

8 97 Q. We do not know. They are your loans, they are not

9 our loans.

10 A. To be honest with you, in 1977 I can't tell you what

11 the £15,000 was taken for or the £20,000.

12 98 Q. Number 58 is a loan. (SAME HANDED TO

13 MR. ARMSTRONG). Wilfield Securities, Exhibit 5?

14 A. Yes.

15 99 Q. Again it is 1977 and suitably secured.

16 A. It wasn't secured by my money anyway.

17 100 Q. Was it secured by any money that you know of?

18 A. Not that I know of. If it was, it was, but it

19 certainly wasn't by me or anything I had or any

20 company I had or anybody abroad.

21 101 Q. Had you any dealings with Jersey?

22 A. No.

23 102 Q. Guernsey?

24 A. No.

25 103 Q. Cayman Islands?

26 A. No.

27 104 Q. College Trustees?

28 A. No.

29 105 Q. Did you ever have a trust?

23
 1 A. No. Sorry in 1997, yes.

2 106 Q. In 1997. Where was that trust?

3 A. Isle of Man.

4 107 Q. MR. CUSH: What is the name of the

5 Jersey based company that

6 you began your Polish operation with?

7 A. Enterprise Trading, it wasn't my company.

8 108 Q. What was the name of the company?

9 A. Enterprise Trading, it wasn't my company.

10 109 Q. MR. O'LEARY: Whose company was it?

11 A. Jack Stakelum's company.

12 MR. CUSH: Thank you, Mr. Armstrong.

13 We may have to talk to you

14 again if we have any further queries but we will be

15 in touch. Thank you for coming along.

16 MR. O'LEARY: There is one other matter,

17 the transcript will be

18 available and you will be asked to sign it, so as

19 everybody will know exactly what you said and so

20 nobody will be able to say you said more than that

21 or you said less than that in the future.

22 A. Thank you.

23 MR. CUSH: Thank you.

24

25

26 END OF INTERVIEW

27

28

29
Appendix XV (142) (l)(b)
 * 2FG jm
f7

aijc^ rftLL^xc*, fiSH

/^Lc/LocJl,

e/tOt/Ajp-
Appendix XV (142) (1) (c)
 /

fen

J 01 CU^
^ - ( ^ i t v ^ y xM^L Q^^cJ^x. (p^r ^ ^ j "ft&j

/*? 7/ - 7 2. a ^ L I #

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.Jw ^ a i a ^ otZi ^t/s

CI, ciL^ot ^(f /^-ZL Aj-t^e.

fa cjol

Cla/i z ^sJL shvi"^ j

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 /^"^L q,
fijQ^ aJuIX. ^ V

til
X^-vJ (O^o ffifctjJy^i s&sn^j

p.
Appendix XV (142) (l)(d)
 MJ.P.'to RA. Ursall December, 1986

Bruce :

^ As requested I Uat hereunder particulars of the Accounts for wMcfa we bold backing
deposits from GMCT :
 r
c)

<0 College Trustee clients for whom Collage have arranged backing
deposits hers through G.M.GX : -

j j g Armstrong Electronics 47,481.38 IR .

• r^.
•

»»

Regards,

A/iu&ui,
Michael J. Pender
Appendix XV (142) (l)(e)
 I^g^nwrt T^CTROMICS I»TD

Jack Stakelum and Douglas Armstrong called to the Bank and

met CAD7 and H3L to review their facilities.

CORRZHT BT7S132SS
The Company's main business in Ireland is the supply,
installation and servicing of electronic equipment. At the
moment, thaix main contracts include two with RTE; (a)
Aertel Tela Text System, and (bJ'New Data Channel which
RTB ia introducing. They also have a contract with SIS
(Systems Information Services) for the service of the
satellite information Bystem used by bookmakers.
Outside of the Armstrong operation, D.A. has expanded his
activities into Europe using a Jersey based company. They
now have dealings with 14 different centres and have
developed markets in Poland and Hungary. In particular, .
D.A. has opened an office in Warsaw employing six staff and
is currently distributing Sony TV and video products.
Turnover for financial year end 30/6/1991 is anticipated At
around £2 million and with a profit after tax of £200X.

RESULTS TOR Y/B 30/6/1990

Trading results are summarised as follows:
Y/B Y/B
30/6/1990 30/6/1989
Turnover £1,850,818 'El,207,297
Operating Profit £232,797 £76,034
% 12.58% 6.30%
Profit after tax £125,545 £39,137
Extracts from the accounts are attached.

COMMSaTS:-

5MSS
Turnover at £1.85m in 89/90 is up approximately 50% on the
pravious year. Overheads which by nature are relatively
fixed have increased by only 33%. Consequently operating
margins have shown a significant improvement.
TRADE DEBTORS
The collection period has increased to 52 days against 47
days in 1988/89. This is not significant and probably
reflects the impact of the. level of increased sales on year
end debtor levels.

CREDITORS
Creditors at £390,627 have risen by 32%. However, the
increase is largely attributable to a substantially
increased corporation tax provision and an increased usage
of the AIB O/D facility at year end. The increase in Trade
Creditors is relatively small.

INVESTHEWT PROPERTY
The Directors of A.E. have confirmed that the value of the
investment property is in excess of the value shown in the
accounts (46,800).

USAGE OF OUR FACILITIES

So far in 1991 we have only opened two letters of credit as
the company are dealing more on a .straight collection basis
through AIB. The directors asked that the L/C facility of
£100,000 be extended for a further twelve months as they
feel our letter credit service is excellent and value the
connection with GSM. Doug Armstrong said that the company
are fairly liquid at present with £23OK on short term
deposit with AIB, whose O/D facilities are hardly .
utilized. We expressed our willingness to quote for
deposits and there may be an opportunity here for the Bank.

The above account has always been operated satisfactory.

Security in the f03311 of our floating charge, provides cover
of approximately 2.8 times (based on 50% value of all
assets). In addition, the guarantee held as security Is
regarded as adequate.
Extension is recommended.

CAW/mhc
14.6.91
Appendix XV (142) (l)(f)
 UK] 17

Armstrong Electronics Limited : - EXTENSION

Amount: £20,000
Purpose : Trading purposes
Rate : 15% per annum fixed
Drawdown Already taken up in the form of a loan
account,
Security : '•Suitably Secured"
Review • 30th June, 1978

Re comm end ed >

>3*7,
Appendix XV (142) (1) (g)
 ifl^lro

Recommended,

Wilfield Securities Limited

Amount: No. h «{7,7Q7

No. 2.t £13,700
Ftapese: Working capital
Temj; Repayment from cash flow. 21,250 per month to
% No. 2 A/%, until repaid - then mcnthly reductions
to No. I. A/a.
Rata: ofr Base Rate plus 3%I.e. 12% fb<ed effective
•A 1st January; 1978.
No. 2. ct Base Rate plus 3%
Drawdown: Alreadytakenup In the form of loan accounts.
Security. ^ No. 1. Joint and Several Guarantee -
"Suitably Secured".
No. 2. Joint and Several Guarantee held.
Recommended.

outlay
Appendix XV (142) (l)(h)
ARMSTRONG ELECTRONS LIMITED - EXTENSION.

Amount : £56,500 - Loan Account.

£24,000 - Letter of Credit. ' j
Purpose : Working Capital. .
Term : Extension for one year to 20th.September,1*986.
Rate : Base Rate plus 2X.
Drawdown Already Drawn. ^
Security Joint and Several Guarantee of Douglas and£"
Hrs. Elsie Armstrong. • : •
Debenture completed by Armstrong Electronics
United.
Considered Adequate.
Recommended
 -a

type: l.„».?.pn amount: _j5a&aoo»qa_. RATE: -.Bsafc-*..,?.!*!— FEE:

L/C _JR2A.000.01L._

PURPOSE/DRAWDOWN: It i n of Incnuml
fidlltiM, b drawdown
parmlttid prior to
Working capital. eompkdan of ncurity?

YES/Nfit

TERM OF FACILITIES: REVIEW DATES:

Extension required for year. 20.9.1986

SOURCE OF REPAYMENT:
Cash Flow.

SECURITY: H additional or atbdng

faoUlty, fancurity In oidor?
Joint & Several guarantee Douglas & Mrs. Elsie Armstrong. YES/HOC .
Debenture completed by Armstrong Electronics Ltd.
Considered adequate. If No, gin* dttaHi aparmty.

BACKGROUNO NOTE/ _ w .
M e m 0
OUTLINE OF PROPOSAL: No. ISI dated 12.10.84,
The loan has been reduced during the past year by a sum of approx.220,000.
He has stated that we wilt continue to receive reductions of £3,300 per month for 9 months
(Exc June, July & August) with a view to reducing the loan to a -sum or approx. £40,000 by 30th
September, 1986. The account hai been conducted In order. There la an exposure of £24,000
In respect of a Letter of Credit maturing on 14th Ocotber. The company h u In the past provided
cash to pay such Letters of Credit. m ^ O - ^ ^ C U - , «a * «*• _ w * .
Appendix XV (142) (l)(i)
 UKfcLUT WmUKAWUUW
EXTENSION

3F APPLICANT s Armstrong Electronics Limited.

SS : . c/o, 17, Clyde Road, Ballsbridge, Dublin 4.

ESS / OCCUPATION : Dealers in Electronic Equipment.

IT : IR£67,678.00

JSE Working capital.

Extension-required for one year.

Base Rate • 2%.

ITMENT FEE NIL

'DOWN : Already taken up by way of loan.

IRITY : Joint & Several guarantee Douglas & Mrs. Elsie

Armstrong. Debenture completed by Armstrong
Electronics Limited.
Security considered adequate.

See over

KGROUND NOTES /
LIME OF PROPOSAL :
Ith a view to regularising the above account, Mr. Armstrong proposes to
duce the indebtedness on a monthly basis by a sum of £2,500.00. He has
erefore asked that the loan be extended'for a further period of one year,
raft accounts will be available with 10/14 days. The security may be considered
iequate in this case.

See over/|

-™"1, c—iritifiri l»Ti $

Li.
Appendix XV (142) (1)0)
 ,/Ni ELECTRONICS LIMITED Credit Memorandum
Submitted by: PO'D
-.'"' y 7, C l y d e Road, Ballsbridge, Dublin 4.
Equity Stake: No
iS/ C.B. Approval: Yes/No
NATION: Electronics Distributors. Permission Obtained
Date: N/A

fH IS APPLICATION-. / Extension / R*5&S*K»xxx

(Delete as appropriate) "Existing facilities overleaf

TYPE: Overdraft AMOUNT: £2O,0.Q0 RATE: ...B.ase...+...3.% FEE:

PURPOSE/DRAWDOWN: If new or increased

facilities, is drawdown
permitted prior to
completion of security?
Day to day working capital.

YES / N O

TERM OF FACILITIES: REVIEW DATES:

Extesnion for one year 31.10.87

SOURCE OF REPAYMENT:
Cash F l o w

SECURITY: If additional or existing

facility, is security in order?

Guarantee s i g n e d by Douglas Armstrong. YES/NO

If No, give details separately.

BACKGROUND NOTE/
OUTLINE OF PROPOSAL:

Presently o v e r d r a w n t o t h e e x t e n t of £26,800 - excess t e m p o r a r y . T h e c o m p a n y is t r a d i n g

p r o f i t a b l y , t h e g u a r a n t o r w o u l d b e c o n s i d e r e d g o o d f o r t h e s u m in q u e s t i o n . Foreign Exchange
Business o b t a i n e d in the f o r m of L / C ' s . Extension recommended.

delated Facilities/Borrowers: CREDIT COMMITTEE

Balance or Limit, whichever is greater)
Minute L&CC. DatejZjl-jjJk.
Armstrong Electronics Loan £51,904 ) Security
J)
Armstrong Electronics L / C f a c i l i t y £100,000 > adequate.

BOARD

J±(MM.
f)
Total Exposure: £ 1 7 8 , 5 0 4 Minute Z..1 Date
Appendix XV (142) (1) (k)
4A.ME: ARMSTRONG ELECTRONICS LIMITED. Credit Memorandum
Submitted b y : p o ' D
ADDRESS: c /0, 17, Clyde Road, Ballsbridge, Dublin 4.
Equity Stake: No.
3USINESS/ C.B. Approval: Yes/No
OCCUPATION: Equipment Dealers. Permission Obtained
Date: N/A

THIS APPLICATION: / Extension / Bjt<&jfi*i#jjxx

(Delete as appropriate) *

fYPE: t.!?.?" AMOUNT: ..£53,45.0.. RATE: Base...±..2% FEE: N.U

L
et.ters...of.Credi t I.R£1..00,Q.QQ - Usuai

'URPOSE/DRAWDOWN: If new or increased

facilities, is drawdown
permitted prior to
orking capital f a c i l i t y ,
completion of security?
b f ^ « J i t a t e opening of L e t t e r s of Credit.
YES / NO

f E R M OF FACILITIES: REVIEW DATES:

{tension for one year 31.3.1989

SOURCE OF REPAYMENT:

ash flow from business.

SECURITY: If additional or existing

)int & Several guarantee Douglas & Mrs. Elsie Armstrong. facility, is security in order?

ebenture completed by Armstrong Electronics Limited. YES / MOX

If No, give details separately.

Dns. .ed adequate.

BACKGROUND NOTE/
OUTLINE OF PROPOSAL- " interest debited to the account during the year has been paid. The accoun
r the two years ended 30th June show a profit of £43,000. The company guaranteed a loan of £20,000
Gemi ni Electronics L i m i t e d - this has been fully repaid. A l l F/E business i.e. Letters of C r e d i t /
Elections is routed through G & M. It is expected that reductions w i l l be made during the year.

:tension recommended.

Related Facilities/Borrowers: C R E D I T COMMITTEE

(Balance or Limit, whichever is greater)
Minute...../^..£..6. Date L ^ . ^ f . .

M f fa ^ m f f i l QM* fo
BOARD

Minntp 7 9 3 i^lte 15.

Appendix XV (142) (1) (I)
 V* > CREDIT COMMITTEE APPLICATION
Unit: G.a M. Dublin Minute No: Date: <f. 4 0
KgW/RENEWAL/3!ygRBAZg/KBg^gT3!gy/AMfflflBMEMT; Credit Class: Satisfactory
r-

BORROWER: Armstrong Electronics Limited

A&&17NT: £100,000 Letters of Credit
PROPOSAL Si PURPOSE OF FACILITY(S) i'
Extension of credit facilities covering importation of satellite dishes
and other electronic equipment.
0
:
Source of Repayment, Repayment Programme a Final Maturity:
Cash Flow from business. Annual Review 30.4.91
i^Bank's Income (including Return on Capital): ~ " "
-'"Normal
l l M w n a l rL/C charges
/n m U.mmm ?

Security and Security Margin:

Debenture from Armstrong Electronics Limited. Joint & Several Guarantees
of Douglas & Elsie Armstrong. Regarded as adequate.
Other Information.
See attached Memorandum

BANK'S RISK EXPOSURES -Aggregate (Inclusive of this proposal) to:

Customer Related Customer Total
Committed/Limit: £100,000 — . £100,000
Balance: £ 91,178 — £ 91r1T8
Country Risk:
primary Risk: Limit: Country of Primary Risk:Ireland
Commt: Secondary Risk:Ireland
Drawn: Domicile:Irish
' ector Risk:
Sector: Limit: GM Business Sector:Electrical Engineering
Commt: CBofl Business Sector: 3.4 . f
Drawn: Risk Asset Weighting: 100%
Recommended by: P. Collins
Decision:

A
Credit <fcommlt~tee Chairman
Minute No: . Minute No:

Dublin Board Date: GM&CO. Date:

/CC
Appendix XV (142) (1) (m)
 18/81/al 14:29:36 ->
<2833929

COMPANIES REGISTRATION OFFICE

Registrationfee stamp
Annual Return Companies Acta 1M3 to 1990 to be affixed stove

Section 128 or 126. Campania* Act .1963

Company Nam* in full

Company Number.
30137 B1
ARMSTRONG ELECTRONICS LIMITED
Return made upto1 31 day of December y w 1999
» aoaigMa uamg biadi Financial Yeai 2 from Qj JutyT557"to 30 June 1998
» captain*
Addreee of registered office:
( , 29 EARLSFORT TERRACE, DUBLIN 2
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DELOITTE & TOUCHE DELOITTE 8 TOUCHE HOUSE
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wrmarriap* Telephone Number 01 4172200 Reference ABAJM
 19/31/81 14:38:85
-> 2833929
Capital-Nominal S Nominal Share Capital 1.300.03 IRE
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Class Numbtr
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ORDINARY 1,000 1.C0 IRE

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Capital - iMvitd Issued Amounts

Total Isaued Capital 100.00 IRC Paid up on shargp Issued for cash 130.00 I3£
Conetdered paid on other snares 0.00
Total call* unpaid 0.00

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Number per share share paid
Class
aigm J 100] 1.0C 1.00 I 100.00 IRC
ORDINARY
1 t t o M S« » v * > ki
M •TMraruiiidM 100(A)
Meal TOtala 100.00 IR£

Consideration - PuHy paid not *ll auto

Amount consid- Total amount
Amount called up ered paid per considered
Class Number per share share paid

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Total nunbtt of atom* Inuad 100maTh
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other Share/Debenture D«tail» <* Wm»tafOad.tfiara/daMmurMtouod*• di»«u-< o- on wt-idi a comniMim
frn^ Uinrimwwgnwn »m< paid indu^>lw«ct»>,rumtivol>nra and urauMi h«Kncu<
Discount Forfeited
Total amount of sums, if any paid by way of commission in respect of any shares or debentures:
Total amount stowed by way ol discount mraspedof any debentures since date of last return;
To»i amount paid, H any, on shares forfeited:
 18/01/81 14:38:26 -> 2833929 Page BB4

Ust of parsons holding shares an the 14th day ifUM-ttw annual gtmralmMUnfl for yur ,
and of parsons who hava haid sharaa therein at any time sines the date of the lastrnturn. of, In the ease of theflfst return, the dale
of incorporation of the company
Number
Sham Class Numbers Held Transferred and Particjlar* of Transferee
note abt date note town

'*» Name DOUGLAS ARMSTRONG jORPINARY 89!

, Ad&esa CURRY GRANE
PUCKSCASTLE LANE-
SHANKILL
CO DUBLIN
Folio No.

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Tota! numbar held rfca teal number at Hwmhate must same wm the total
number o( Issued sharaa given n the *Shares Issusd section
Of the -slum

Earlier full listing

Whan tut particulars of past and prasent membeis hsvs been gKwo in sratumfor any of the Ave yean praeeeding INS return, only psttculsrs rslstlng
to new msmbers, persons who have cesssd to b« members snd shares trsnsfaned shoo lhas dale needtobefurrlshad. PMpsrfculsrs « • not now
given, spsdfy the dsts me relevant annual return was made up to.

Return made up to not* arm "f yeaL