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Violin making tools

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Violin Forum/Message Board Forum Index -> Violin Making and

Restoration Forum
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Author
wonybunyeats
Junior Me m be r

Message
Poste d: Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:20 am

Post subje ct: Violin m ak ing tools

Hi,
Joine d: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1
Location: W A

I am in the process of gathering up the necessary tools to make my first

violin, and I am a bit stuck with selecting the right gouges and chisels to
purchase.
I acknowlege the fact that different people use different making methods
with different tools, but I would be thankful if some of the experienced
luthiers would tell me what their most commonly used types of chisels &
gouges are.
I also have a question about the tools required for purfling. Due to my limited
budget, I am not looking into buying an electric router to carve the purfling
channels. To my understanding, some luthiers use a sharp knife to precisely
cut out the purfling channels, and then use a simple tool to scrape and clean
out the channels. I am wondering what the grand italian masters did for this
process? I'm willing to follow the old violin making tradition no matter how
much more time or dedication it requires.
Regards,
Won

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Tim McTigue
Me m be r

Joine d: 31 Mar 2007

Posts: 30
Location: O ntario,
C anada

Poste d: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:36 am

Post subje ct:

Welcome to the forum, Won, and to the obsession. Yes, obsession is the
right word.
I'm not an experienced luthier, but I have made one violin, and am in the
process of making another, so I can relate my experience. I'll leave the
gouges to more experienced folks to tell you about, I made do with 2 or 3
that were not ideal, but on a tight budget, one does what one must. I think
one is a #8 12mm, and one is a #6 14mm, and I recently bought a nice
smaller gouge for scrollwork, but most of my work was done with the #8 and
#6. Not highly recommended, but workable.
I don't know what the Italian masters did, but what I did for purfling was
this:

I bought a proper purfling marker tool, 2-bladed, I think it cost me $35 or $45
- well worth the money. I used this to mark the purfling channel, and then I
used a sharp X-Acto knife (#11 blade) to cut the channel. For picking out the
wood, I made a tool by taking a short length of 1/8" music wire, putting a
slight bend in it, heating the end and then hammering it flat. Then I filed the
end so it was fairly sharp and plane-like - I think I even put a bevel in it. I
then stuck it in an old file handle. This worked okay, but a better tool could
be had. I found it wasn't quite stiff enough.
_________________
Tim
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Geemac
Me m be r

Joine d: 06 Jul 2008

Posts: 93
Location: Spruce Grove

Poste d: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:41 pm

Post subje ct:

Yes, welcome to the forum. I have been down the road you are just entering.
I'm retired so my annual income is less than minumum wage and yet my tool
cabinet is quite full. I used two simple rules to get my tools. The first rule I
assigned to myself was:
Determine the tool I needed to get the next step in making the violin done.
and second: If I could not afford it set aside some cash towards the
purchase of the tool and over two or three months I would have enough to
get what I needed.
It's all about budget and patients. or is it patience?
I also made a few tools for myself, just by looking in a tool catalogue with an
eye toward making my own tools. Here's a little tip for you. Often dentists
will save broken picks and probes and if you ask they will give you one or all
of them. I got three when I asked. I took a curved broken one and ground it
down to make a chisel about a sixteenth of an inch wide, maybe even less
than a sixteenth. It's great for all kinds of jobs such as cleaning out the
puffling channel or scraping in a tight spot.
If you approach it as if it's an adventure you'll have a lot of fun.
Oh yeah, a bending iron or steam cabinet are great to have but you can boil
the side pieces and form them into shape just as easily.
Carry on having fun.
_________________
GeeMac

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John Cadd

Supe r Me m be r
Joine d: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 538
Location: Elle sm e re Port

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Poste d: Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:05 pm

Post subje ct: violin tools

Best carving tool is a PFEIL Swiiss made (octagonal ash handles)

gouge about 1,1/2 inches wide.Curved along it`s length and tip.Can`t
remember the exact number.If you drew the curve right round it would be
about 3 inches diameter.
Cut a slot in the handle to make a pistol grip.Very controllable.

Andres Sender
Supe r Me m be r

Joine d: 23 Mar 2007

Posts: 272
Location: N. C A

Poste d: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:47 am

Post subje ct:

Pfeil often does not fare well in reviews by violin makers. Many have found
their tools do not hold an edge for long in maple.
I recently re-hardened a Pfeil knife blade and it came out very nice.
A bit of hunting in past threads at various forums will get you some
recommendations in answer to your questions.

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kipp

Junior Me m be r
Joine d: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 11

Poste d: Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:17 pm

Post subje ct:

I bought my first set of chisels from the salesman at Gotz. He would come by
and see us every year after the NAMM Show in January. We bought wood
and many items that the US distributers did not have. Gotz stocks Dastra
brand. So I bought the set for making violins(the palm set). It cost around
$225.00 then. I think it is about double that now days. www.dastrausa.com
is the US distributer. Gotz I am sure still stocks them as well. On ebay the
chinese are selling carving sets. I am not talking about the cheap knock off
stuff here. The sets I am talking about are from Donyang a southern city in
China that has been into wood carving from the time of the Tang
dinasty(900AD) Try an ebay search
New 62pcs ASSORTED WOOD CARVING set or the 30pcs set With these you
will have to sharpen them first thing. As they come from the black-smith with
only a rough edge to start with. Carfull of using power stones as not to heat
up the steel. The 62 pcs set you will have to make or buy a set of handles.
That is 31 socket chisel handles. The other 31 you could just buy some file
handles. The key to the hole thing is having sharp tools.
For violin knifes and plane irons This guy is a great source.
http://www.hocktools.com/products.htm#BRinfo
Last e dite d by k ipp on Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:23 am ; e dite d 1 tim e in total

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Michael Darnton
Mode rator

Joine d: 23 Mar 2007

Posts: 1040
Location: C hicago

Poste d: Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:05 pm

Post subje ct:

My scroll gouges are all Dastra, and the gouges that aren't, a lot of them had
to be rehardened. I wasn't sure the Swiss Made ones could even be
hardened, they were so unusably soft from the factory, so I gave them
away. With Andres saying he'd hardened some knife blanks, maybe I was
premature. I threw the knives away when the tips bent instead of snapping
as they should. :-) That was all a long time ago, though. Some people have
said to me that the Swiss Made are better now. Once burned; twice shy.
These days, however, I would probably buy mostly Japanese laminated tools
(what most of my knifes are now).

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Janito

Me m be r
Joine d: 08 O ct 2007
Posts: 114
Location: USA

Poste d: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:41 pm

Post subje ct:

In the US I have noticed that there are various tools that carry "Swiss made"
stamped on the handle, but the quality appears to be variable.

I have had good service from "Swiss made" Pfiel tools I bought some time
ago.
More recently, however, I bought a "Swiss made" knife labelled "Brienz" on
the blade. This was soft steel and the edge bent over whilst working difficult
wood (it should have remained straight or snapped off). A most
disappointing tool.
After that, as catharsis, I made a whole load of knives from a Starrett Red
Stripe blade, as recommended by Michael Darnton. I felt better - just like the
hungry catapillar.
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John Cadd

Supe r Me m be r
Joine d: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 538
Location: Elle sm e re Port

Poste d: Thu Se p 03, 2009 9:58 am

Post subje ct: violin m ak ing tools

This is not exactly a tool but will make all your work more effective and more
satisfying. A plywood rotary tool rack.Overall size is 2 feet high and 2 feet
wide.Circular top and base joined by two vertical boards which support
external racks and give a support for internal drawers.Rotates on a sealed
motorcycle wheel bearing. The top centre has a simple short rod into a board
to act as a stabiliser .Three "sides "are used for racks for gouges etc.The
fourth side is filled with drawers which use the internal volume which would
otherwise be wasted.The base is fitted with a rim (2 inch high) to use as a
handy platform for current odds and ends.There is a similar shelf at eye level
for anything else with occasional uses.
There are plans showing how to make one but it only needs 5 minutes with a
pencil to work out your own setup.
The basic benefit is tools will always end up in the same place and will
reduce clutter on the bench.Actual positioning is up to you,but arms length in
any direction is all you need.Must look up the Lazy Susan phrase to see
where that came from.
Nothing is attached that will stick outside the circular outline .
Last e dite d by John C add on W e d Nov 24, 2010 12:37 pm ; e dite d 1 tim e in total

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CT Dolan
Me m be r

Joine d: 29 Jun 2008

Posts: 143

Poste d: Fri Se p 04, 2009 8:32 am

Post subje ct:

The best edge tools hold an edge, but are tough enough to bend without a
break, chip or crack in the blade. I used to be a member of the American
Bladesmith Society, and for the Journeyman and Master tests one had to
forge their own blade (out of high-carbon steel for the Journeyman test and
laminated, or Damascus steel for the Master test), bring it up to a fine edge,
and submit it to a round of tests, most of which tested edge retention,
however the last of which was to put the blade in a vise and bend it a full
90-degrees without any failure whatsoever of the blade (no chipping or
fracture of the steel). You see, it is easy enough to bring a blade up to high
temper, to give it a very hard edge, but another matter altogether to give a
blade excellent edge retention combined with toughness. Hardness alone is
not the goal, and there is a difference in the tool, when treated properly and
made right. Ever used one of the really good chisels from days gone by? The
ones that are thin in section, but super-tough and can hold an edge forever?
This is the stuff I am talking about, but it is so very rare to find such a tool
today. In fact, I've yet to find one commercially available. But, if you can find
a good bladesmith in your area, you might be able to talk him into making up

some tools for you with 52-100 steel. He'll know what you're talking about,
and this stuff, when worked under the hammer properly and then
differentially-hardened, is legend!
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John Cadd

Supe r Me m be r
Joine d: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 538
Location: Elle sm e re Port

Poste d: Mon Se p 14, 2009 1:39 pm

Post subje ct:

C T Dolan Have you ever tried those thin flexy blades in the current
catalogues?I wondered if you would lose control with flexing.The blades are
nice short ones.You would be the ideal one to ask.--Our resident metalman.
(Your new title)

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CT Dolan
Me m be r

Joine d: 29 Jun 2008

Posts: 143

Poste d: Mon Se p 14, 2009 7:25 pm

Post subje ct:

Sorry, I am not familiar with the tools you mention. Generally-speaking

however, the better tools are thinner in section (more slender) and have an
elegance to their overall shape and appearance which suggests having been
worked over and finished by hand. They also have an ever so subtle "give"
under the hand, which provides a totally different feel in use and great tactile
feedback. Such tools are very difficult, if not impossible to find today and the
only way I know to get a hold of one is to make it yourself, or have one
made by a good blacksmith, one who knows and understands edge tools, as
any good blacksmith should. Even better, though, would be to find a
bladesmith because these guys actually specialize in edge tools (sort of akin
to seeing a medical specialist to treat a specific health condition, rather than
a general practitioner, because even though perhaps very talented, they lack
specific trainging). However beware that such tools, if made for you, would
not be cheap, but it sure would be nice for maple!

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kipp

Junior Me m be r
Joine d: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 11

Poste d: Tue Se p 15, 2009 2:46 am

Post subje ct:

I have found some nice tools at yard sales for those on a budget. Those old
damaged and worn out files make very good chisels. Good steel is good
steel. Flat thin spring steel can make knives, scrapers and so on. I had a
freind who made a violin knife from a bed spring. It worked well for him for
almost 50 years. He made it and other tools from some junk that he found in
the alley in 1937.

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CT Dolan
Me m be r

Joine d: 29 Jun 2008

Posts: 143

Poste d: Tue Se p 15, 2009 7:52 am

Post subje ct:

As I believe I've mentioned before (somewhere, if not here), old car leaf
springs can make for great tools.

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L P Reedy
Me m be r

Joine d: 02 Apr 2009

Posts: 199
Location: Bre vard, NC

Poste d: Tue Se p 15, 2009 5:25 pm

Post subje ct:

Tools such as gouges and knives that have a little give (I think Flex-Cuts
have more than a little) are fine for some jobs, such as scroll work. On the
other hand, I do not want my roughing gouges and plane blades to have

ANY detectable flex.

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