A Conversation

with . .

.Jane Goodall
Neil A. Campbell

about the animals and the issues will they care

Inspired by her love of animals and her desire to write about enough to help and they can only understand if I
them, an 18-year-oldJaneGoodalltraveledby boat fromher home
in England to the shores of Africa. There she met the famed share informationwith them."
anthropologist/paleontologistLouis S.B. Leakey,who hired her as
an assistant at Nairobi's Natural History Museum. Leakey later
encouragedher to begin a field study observingchimpanzeesat a When a scientist has celebrity status, are there spe-
remote site in East Africa.In 1960JaneGoodallmade her first trip cial problems and benefits?
to the Gombe StreamChimpanzeeReserve (now the Gombe Na-
tional Park)in Tanzania.What she thought might be a three-year "The main problem is needing to be in so many
study became a life-long mission to understand chimpanzee be- places at the same time. Particularlynow that I'm in-
havior and share that understandingwith the rest of the world. volved in trying to enforce more humane conditions
Goodall'sextraordinaryaccomplishmentshave been closely fol-
lowed by the world in her six published books, her numerousap- for primates in medical research labs. When I'm
pearances on National GeographicSociety specials and her fre- asked to attend a conference "because it could make
quent lecture tours. a difference"-well, I have to go, if I can. It all means
In this interview, she shares some fascinatingstories and mag-
ical moments from her experience studying non-humanprimates I get less time to do field research at Gombe. And I
in the wild. spend days and days in airplanes. Because a great
deal of crueltyinflictedon non-human animals is due
to ignorance, I feel it is importantto spend time with
the media, to write books for children and to talk at
Dr. Goodall, why did you make this long trip from schools in addition to the college and public lectures.
Tanzania to New York? And this is not only in the USA but in Europe as
"This particularoccasion is to receive one of the cen- well. However, so long as it really does make a dif-
tennial awards of the National GeographicSociety. I ference, even a small one, it's worthwhile."
just happen to be one of the scientists who's been
involved with them for a very long time."

You've just finished an interview with Time maga-

zine, and you do a lot of public speaking. How do This interview is one of eight that will appear in The
AmericanBiologyTeacherthrough June 1990. All are ex-
you view the responsibility of a scientist to public cerpted from conversations between eminent biologists
education? and Neil A. Campbell,author of the textbook Biology(Ben-
"I feel a sense of responsibility to the public. Then, jamin/CummingsPublishing Co., Redwood City, CA).
too, I owe a great deal to the chimpanzees;they have The interviews introduceeach unit of the second edition
given me so much. Chimpanzeesneed our help: they of Biology.Campbellhas taught general biology at Cornell
University, Pomona College and San Bernardino Valley
are endangered in the wild and often misused in cap- College for the past 21 years. He is now at the Universityof
tivity. To effect change it is often necessary to get the California,Riverside.
support of the public. Only if the public understands

GOODALL 33
One of your current projects is the ChimpanZoo about Africa. Dr. Dolittleand Tarzan-stories about
program. Can you tell us about that? Africananimals. By the time I was eight, I knew that
"In 1984, I suddenly realized that chimp groups in I hadto go to Africa."
zoos would make ideal subjects for study. Students,
keepers and volunteers could all become involved. How did you finance your first trip to Africa?
The research would help zoo management to im- "By giving up my very fascinating job with docu-
prove their exhibitswhich would, in turn, benefit the mentary film-making in London and working as a
chimps. Finally, the project would create growing waitress-it paid better."
understanding of chimpanzees, their complex per- How did Louis Leakey first learn about you?
sonalities and their intelligence. The zoos that I ap- "I heard about him and went to see him. He asked
proached were enthusiastic. Now, in 1989, 15 zoos me all kinds of questions and was clearly impressed
are committed to statisticaldata collection and many with my knowledge of African animals and offered
others are contributingin a less formalway. Eventu- me a job as his secretary-assistant.Soon after that I
ally, we shall be able to comparebehavior in the dif- accompaniedhim and his wife on their annual dig at
ferent sites-a cross-culturalstudy." Olduvai Gorge. That was in 1957 before the first of
the hominid remains had been found there. It was
What is the Jane Goodall Institute for Wildlife Re-
the Africa of my dreams come true-utterly remote
search?And how is it related to the Gombe Research
and wild with no car tracksbut our own. Therewere
Center, the actual site of your research?
lions and rhinos and giraffes all around us."
"The Jane Goodall Institute was formed in 1976. We
support research at Gombe and also contribute to What was Leakey's vision in first sending you to
chimpanzee research in other parts of Africa and to study the chimpanzees of Gombe?
the ChimpanZoo program. We are working to en- "Louis told me he had been looking for 10 years for
force better living conditions for chimps in medical the right person to go and study mankind's closest
researchlabs. We are also launching a series of edu- living relative in the wild, hoping the results would
cation programs for children, students and the gen- give him clues about early human's behavior. Today
eral public concerning our relationship with non- we take for granted his logic-that behaviors shared
human animals in general and chimpanzees in par- by modern man and modern chimpanzee are likely
ticular." to have been present in the common ancestor and,
therefore, in early man himself. But at that time it
What facilities exist at the Gombe center now, and was a new approach, one of the signs of Leakey's
what is the typical camp population like today? genius. I was concernedthat I had no college degree.
"I have a cement block house with a grass-covered, In his eyes this was a plus: he wanted a person
galvanized iron roof. It's simple; there's no running whose mind was unclutteredby scientifictheory."
water or electricity.The windows are made of weld-
mesh to keep the baboons and chimps out. The day- You've written that you do not personally find it
to-day research is carried on by Tanzanian field as- necessary to justify the study of chimpanzees by
sistants; they have their own little "village" which, suggesting that the results will help us in our long
like my house, is on the shore of Lake Tanganyika. search to comprehend human behavior. Would you
About half a mile inland is "chimp camp"-two alu- please explain what you mean by that?
minum huts-where we still feed bananas to the "Well, first let me make it clear that I do believe that
chimps (each chimp gets about six bananas once the results of the research help us to better under-
every ten days or so). And those really are all the stand some aspects of human behavior. But equally I
facilitieswe have at Gombe." believe that the study of creatures as complex and
fascinating as chimpanzees is important in its own
Your childhood dream was to study animals in right. In fact, the most important spin-off of the
Africa. How did that interest develop at such a chimp researchis probablythe humbling effect it has
young age? on us: we are not, afterall, the only aware, reasoning
"I was born that way. When I was two years old, I beings on this planet."
once took worms to bed with me. My mother was
wonderful; when she found them, instead of saying What can ethology contribute to general ecology?
"Yuck! How disgusting!" and throwing them out, "You can't understand the ecology of a given area
she said, "Jane, if you leave them there they'll die, without knowing how the animal species behave,
they need the damp earth." So I gathered them up as how much territorythey need and so on. It is partic-
fast as I could and ran into the garden with them to ularly important to understand the needs of the
save them. That early interest continued. I watched various animal species if one is to effectively manage
insects and birds in the garden and, as I got older, a reserve or national park. The sciences of ecology
made notes about them. Then I began reading books and ethology are interdependent."

34 THE AMERICAN BIOLOGY TEACHER, VOLUME 52, NO. 1, JANUARY 1990

How large and what type of biological community is climbed up to the peak day after day and sat there
Gombe? Is it isolated from other populations in watching through my binoculars. As I gradually
Africa? pieced together the daily behavior patterns of the
"The park consists of a small strip of wooded hills chimps they slowly got used to me and eventually
intersected by steep-sided, thickly forested valleys lost their fear. Then I was able to move ever closer.
stretchingalong the east shores of Lake Tanganyika. Never shall I forget the day when I approached to
Within this 30-square-milearea there are 170 chimps within 20 yards of David Greybeard and Goliath;
at mostin three separate social groups, or communi- they just glanced at me and went on grooming-I
ties. This population is now virtuallyisolated as cul- was accepted. Even now, 29 years later, I never take
tivation has crept up to the park boundaries on all my relationshipwith the chimps for granted. When I
sides. It is not clear that such a tiny population can sit among a group in the forest and a mother will
survive over the long term. There can be no further allow her infant to sleep a few feet away from me, I
genetic input from chimpanzee communities outside am overwhelmed by the trust that the chimpanzees
the park-they have gone. And natural disasters have in me. It's a terrific responsibility-I must
decimate the resident population every so often. For never allow that trust to be broken."
instance there was an outbreakof a respiratorydis-
ease (probably pneumonia) in 1987 that killed nine You've also said that if you'd known the study
chimps in the study community alone." would have continued for so long, you would not
have established such close contact with the chim-
Record-keeping at Gombe includes weighing chim- panzees. Would you please explain?
panzees. How do you weigh a wild chimpanzee? "Firstlet me say how the contact came about. Can
"At chimp camp we have a spring balance sus- you imagine how thrilled I was when, after strug-
pended on a chain between two trees. A rope hangs gling for so many months to get anywhere near the
from this, near the top of which is attacheda tin can. chimpanzees, I was actually able to touch some of
When we want to weigh a chimp, we put a bananain them? Therewere moments I shall never forget, such
the can, the chimp then climbsthe rope, and we read as when David Greybeardfirst allowed me to groom
the weight off the scale." him; when Flo let her infant reach out and touch me;
Is there any research at the station that focuses on when adolescent Figan joined me in a game, let me
animals other than the chimpanzees? tickle him and laughed. I would not have forgone
"Yes, the baboon population there has been studied those moments for anything. But when I realized
since 1967. We're now studying six different troops that, with the help of students, the research could
of baboons. The day-to-day observations are made continue indefinitely, I knew I had to distance myself
by Tanzanianfield assistants." from the chimps. For one thing I wanted to affect
their natural behavior as little as possible. For an-
What interactions between chimpanzees and ba- other, chimps are much stronger than humans. Too
boons has been observed? close a relationship, I thought, might become dan-
"The relationship between chimps and baboons is gerous-might destroy the inherent respect that
most fascinating. They compete aggressively for most wild chimps have for humans. Indeed, Figan
food; adult male chimpanzees hunt and eat infant obviously learned when he played with me that he
baboons; chimpanzees steal freshly killed prey from was stronger than I was. Thereafterhe sometimes
male baboons; they understand each others' alarm knocked observers over during his charging dis-
calls; and they respond appropriatelyto a number of plays. We have had the same problem with some
one another's communication signals. Young chim- other particularlyfearless chimps."
panzees and young baboons often play together and
occasionallythey will groom each other. There is no Given the natural empathy of ethologists with our
question but that both chimpanzees and baboons rec- closest primate relatives, are anthropomorphicin-
ognize members of the other species as individuals terpretations of chimpanzee behavior a common
and vary their behavior accordingly." problem?
"Interpretations of this sort are inevitable and in
Dr. Goodall, you once said that being accepted by some ways desirable. We are interested in the be-
the chimpanzees was one of the most momentous havior of the great apes in part because of their close
episodes of your life. How did you first earn that evolutionary relationship with humans. We now
acceptance? know that this closeness is not merely physiological
"Well, when I first got to Gombe, the chimps would and behavioral;chimpanzees and humans also show
run off, even if I was 500 yards away. It was rather similarity in their emotions and cognitive abilities.
depressing. Then I discovered "the peak," a won- There is evolutionary continuity not only in the de-
derful vantage point with a view over two valleys. I velopment of bodily structure,but also in conscious-
stopped trying to get close to the chimps. Instead, I ness and mind. If one has a certainempathy with the

GOODALL 35
chimpanzees, one may intuitively understand some fort to improving or maintainingtheir position in the
complex sequence of social interactions.This anthro- hierarchy.For the most part, the male makes use of
pomorphic interpretationmay not be correct, but it the impressive chargingdisplay, during which he
can then be checked with the facts-provided these races across the ground, hurls rocks, drags branches,
have been recorded objectively." leaps up and shakes the vegetation-in other words,
You have discovered that chimpanzees not only use he makes himself look larger and more dangerous
tools, but make tools. What kind of tools? than he may actually be. In this way he can often
"They modify blades of grass, leafy twigs, strips of intimidate a rival without having to risk an actual
bark and sticks to make them more suitable for a va- fight, which could be dangerous for him as well as
riety of purposes. Chimpanzees use more objects as for his rival. The more frequent, the more vigorous
tools in more contexts than any other creatureexcept and the more imaginative his charging display, the
ourselves. At Gombe they use grass stems, twigs and more likely it is that he will attain a high social posi-
so on to extract termites from their mounds. Long, tion."
thin sticks are used to fish for army ants and strong,
thick ones to enlarge the entrances of bees' or birds' What are the benefits of a high position?
nests. Leaves are chewed, making them more absor- "Thisis an interestingquestion. A high rankingmale
bent, to sop up rain water from tree hollows. Leaves has prior access to the best food, but this is not of
are also used to wipe dirt from the body. Sticks are great benefit since, if food is short, the chimps typi-
flailed and rocks hurled in aggressive contexts. Most cally move about in ones and twos. He can usurp a
fascinatingis the finding that in all the differentareas choice resting place, but he almost never does. He
where chimps have been studied across Africa, they can inhibit other males from copulatingwith a female
have developed different tool using traditions, or in estrus whentheyareall in a grouptogether,but there
cultures, each one obviously having been originally is a mechanism in chimp society which enables even
invented by some chimpanzee genius in the past. a low-ranking male to appropriatea sexually attrac-
Chimpanzees are able to learn new behaviors by tive female. All he has to do is to persuade her to
watching the performanceof others, then imitating follow him, away from the other males, to some pe-
and practicing. Each tool-using pattern can thus be ripheralarea of the communityrange. Of course, this
handed down from one generation to the next. Un- is not always easy. For one thing he must initiatethis
fortunately, we have not yet been able to document consortshipat a stage of her estrus cycle when she is
the appearanceand spread of an innovative act, but I not interesting to higher rankingmales. She will not
feel sure that we shall if the study goes on long want to go with him, and he may have to use consid-
enough." erable force. Even when he has got her to his area of
choice, he must keep her there, often against her
Earlieryou mentioned grooming behavior of chim-
will, until she ovulates. However, if he has the social
panzees, picking flakes of skin off one another.
skills to accomplish all of this, he has a good chance
What do you think is the social function of this be-
of impregnatingher. This means that every male has
havior?
the opportunity to pass on his genes-a fact which,
"Socialgrooming is the single most importantsocial
without doubt, has contributed to the pronounced
activityin the chimp community. It improves bad re-
individual variation that we find among chim-
lationships and maintains good ones. A few brief
panzees. But we are still left with the question: What
grooming movements serve as a reassurance,to ap-
is the advantage of high rankfor a male chimpanzee?
pease a higher rankingindividual, or calm a subordi-
It's almost as though humans aren't the only crea-
nate. A mother pacifies her nervous or hurt child by
tures who value high rank for its own sake and the
embracing and then grooming him or her. Adult
males enjoy particularlylong grooming sessions power that it gives. We don't understand why the
this is important.Males do sometimes compete quite chimps devote so much time, effort and risk. What
are the evolutionary benefits, the reproductiveben-
vigorously for dominance rank, and their relation-
efits?
ships may then become tense. Yet it is crucial that
Females have a hierarchy, too, varying according
they be able to cooperate in order to jointly protect
to whether or not the females are accompanied by
the territory of their community. It's the long ses-
their adult son or other offspring. Also a female in
sions of social grooming, enabling them to spend
estrus may be more assertive. The reproductivead-
time in friendly physical contact, that permits them
to relax after periods of social tension." vantage to the high ranking female is, however,
clear. She can better appropriatechoice food items
You mentioned dominance hierarchiesamong males and thus make her milk richer. Also, her offspring
in chimpanzee social groups. How is this hierarchy are likely to become high ranked since she will sup-
established and maintained? port them. In the supportive family group situation,
"Some male chimpanzees devote much time and ef- all have a better chance of survival."

36 THE AMERICAN BIOLOGY TEACHER, VOLUME 52, NO. 1, JANUARY 1990

During your time at Gombe, you observed the split- well developed cognitive abilities. Technicalproblem
ting of a social group into two factions. What were solving, involving the use of tools to obtain food that
the consequences of that split? would not otherwise be available,is clearlyadaptive
"Soon after the split, the males of the larger group, as well."
who remained in the north, began to make raids, in Is there any evidence for altruisticbehavior in chim-
groups of three or more, into the area taken over by panzee populations?
the southern subgroup. If they encountered a single "Yes, indeed. Let me give an example. We had an
individual they chased him or her and attacked sav- epidemic of viral pneumonia in which one of the fe-
agely. Fights between members of the same commu- male chimpanzees died, leaving a three-year-old,
nity may look ferocious, but they seldom last as long sickly infant named Mel. Since chimps nurse for five
as half a minute, and they rarelyresult in wounding. years, Mel was still dependent on his mother's milk.
By contrast, the assaults on members of this newly Spindle, a non-related, 12-year-oldmale, formed an
formed community were brutal, lasting between 10 incredible bond with Mel. Spindle cared for the in-
and 20 minutes and resulting in the incapacitationof fant, carryinghim and sharing his food with him, al-
the victims, who were left to die. Within a four-year most as though he were his mother. Sometimes
period all the members of the newly formed social Spindle risked being attacked himself as he tried to
group had been killed-or had disappeared and protect Mel-as when he seized him from the path
were presumed killed." of a displaying adult male. On several occasions,
Spindle was actuallybowled over when he interfered
Laboratorystudies indicate that chimpanzees have in this way. The relationshiplasted more than a year,
advanced cognitive abilities. Is there evidence from and there is little doubt but that Spindle saved Mel's
field studies that such cognitive abilities actually life-Mel is still alive today."
have adaptive value?
"Yes, and this is most obvious in relation to social What seems to be the fate of forest communities in
awareness. In chimpanzee society, individuals are Tanzania and other parts of Africa? Is chimpanzee
continually separating and meeting again. This habitat already threatened?
means, for example, that a young male may, at one "Chimpanzee habitat is dwindling rapidly as the
moment, be the highest ranking individual in a great rain forests of Africadisappearto make way for
group of females, able to bully them at will and then, farms and villages and as timber merchants plunder
if other males arrive, find himself the lowest ranking the trees. But it's not only habitatdestructionthat is
male. He must be able to adjust to this change at endangering the chimpanzees. In some countries
once. If not, he may be chastisedby one of the higher they are hunted for food, or captured and sold to
rankingmales for inappropriatebehavior. Then, too, dealers for the pet trade, the entertainment indus-
there is a constant need for decision-making. Sup- tries and for biomedical research. Only infants are
pose a chimpanzee hears others calling on the far wanted-adults are too big and dangerous. Infants
side of the valley. Because each chimp has a recog- are traditionallycapturedby shooting their mothers.
nizable voice, he will know who is there. He must The weapons are usually inefficient. Many mothers
then make some decisions: 'Do I reply or do I stay are wounded and die later, along with their infants.
quiet? Do I join those guys, do I stay where I am, or Other infants are too badly hurt at the time of cap-
do I hasten in the opposite direction?'In the morning ture to survive. Many of those that reach the holding
when a chimpanzee wakes, he must decide: 'Do I go stations alive fall sick because they are maintainedin
and eat figs with David Greybeard,or do I eat leaves non-hygienic conditions with inappropriate food.
by myself?' Of course, other primates need to make Others die on the journey to their final destinations.
some choices, too, but usually to a lesser degree We estimate that for every infant that survives, up to
since they spend most of their time in stable troops. 10 individuals perish. Because it was, at one time,
Due to their highly developed social intelligence, believed that chimpanzees were the only suitablean-
chimpanzees are often able to get their way, even imal model for the study of AIDS, there was a
when set against much higher ranked individuals. A sudden new demand for wild youngsters. Even in
subordinate can withhold informationfrom a domi- conservation-mindedTanzania, where chimpanzees
nant. He can, for example, sit gazing directly away are protected by law, there was an increase in
from a delectable fruit (if he looked at it this would poaching for awhile. Even so, Tanzanianchimps are
serve as a cue for the others) until the dominant de- relativelysecure, for there are two nationalparkscre-
parts-then he collects his prize. Or he can mate ated specially for their protection, and they also live
with a female in secret, without the dominant male's in a number of forest reserves."
knowledge, by beckoning to her from behind some How can your studies of chimpanzee life history
vegetation. I could give many other examples of this and behavior help African governments to make
sort of behavior, all pointing to the adaptive value of good decisions about habitat preservation?

GOODALL 37
"Well, for one thing our research shows clearly that World War II. Today, academic credentials are all but
it is necessary to protect sufficient habitat to support essential. But having explained the difficulties, I
at least five chimpanzee communities-250 to 400 in- always add, 'If you really and truly want to devote
dividuals. This would provide a reasonable gene your life to the study of animals, somehow you will
pool. Our experience at Gombe also suggests that find a way to do it.' I'm convinced of that. After all, I
when smaller populations are conserved, great care was told that it was not possible for a young girl to go
must be taken to protect the chimpanzees from being out into the bush in Africa and study animals. But I
infected with human diseases-which can occur as a found a way. And so I end up:
result of uncontrolled tourism. It might be necessary Be prepared to take any opportunity to further your
to protect nearby farmers from plantation raids by goal, even if it seems somewhat indirect. If you remain
chimpanzees who have become habituated to true to your underlying ambition, you will somehow
humans. In 1986 a group of scientists established the find a way to get back on course. In the meantime,
Committee for the Conservation and Care of Chim- read books on the subject outside of school, try to get
involved in any programsthat are offered that relate to
panzees (the Four C's). This comes under the um- the study of animals.
brella of the Jane Goodall Institute. Under the chair-
manship of Dr. Geza Teleki, the committee is plan- Of course, the ChimpanZoo program is a natural
ning surveys of the chimpanzees throughout their for anybody interested in nonhuman primates. Many
range with a view to creating protected areas across of the students who have taken part have written me
Africa." glowing letters about their experiences. Anyone who
is seriously interested should write for advice to Vir-
Dr. Goodall, how long will you stay at Gombe?
ginia Landau of the Jane Goodall Institute (for Wild-
"As long as I can get there physically. And even if I
life Research Education and Conservation, P.O. Box
can't get there myself, there is, of course, the team of
26846, Tucson, AZ 85726). She is a primatologist and
Tanzanianfield assistants following the chimpanzees
coordinates the ChimpanZoo program. She also has
daily, recordingtheir behavior. They are using 8-mil-
a list of schools that offer good graduate programs in
limeter video cameras now so that I can actually see
primate behavior.
what the chimps have been doing when I get back."
No young person should leave school feeling that
What advice would you give students who share to be a good scientist it's so important to be objective
your interest in animal behavior and would like to that it's absolutely impossible to become emotionally
follow in your footsteps as field researchers? involved with the animals being studied. It is this
"I get hundreds of letters asking for advice. I tell reasoning that has led to the inhumanity we find in
these young people the truth-that this field is be- some animal research labs. It is perfectly possible to
coming increasingly competitive and funding for record data objectively despite feelings of personal
field research increasingly difficult to obtain. It's involvement. It simply requires discipline. So often
really importantto work hard and get good grades at today young people get the message that in order to
school, then go on and get a college education. Of be a really good scientist you must be a scientist first
course, I began my study without such qualifica- and a human being second. That misconception
tions, but it was different in those days, just after must be eradicated from our society."

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38 THE AMERICAN BIOLOGY TEACHER, VOLUME 52, NO. 1, JANUARY 1990