2015-06-10 - (McCrossin, James) Final REDACTED - Condensed

Confidential Deposition of James McCrossin - 6/10/2015
In Re: National Hockey League Players' Concussion Injury Litigation
Page 1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2 DISTRICT OF MINNESOTA
3
4 In Re: National Hockey MDL No.
League Players Concussion 14-2551
5 Injury Litigation (SRN/JSM)
6 ---
7 June 10, 2015
8 ---
9 Confidential
10 Transcript and Exhibits
11 ---
12 Videotape deposition of
13 James McCrossin, taken pursuant to
14 notice, was held at the Law Offices of
15 Dechert, 2929 Arch Street,
16 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, commencing
17 at 9:30 a.m., on the above captioned
18 date, before Kathleen Ruccolo,
19 Professional Reporter and Notary Public
20 in and for the Commonwealth of
21 Pennsylvania.
22
23
24
25
Benchmark Reporting Agency

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1 APPEARANCES:
2
1 ---
ROBBINS GELLER RUDMAN & DOWD 2 EXHIBITS
3 BY: MARK J. DEARMAN, ESQUIRE
BY: STUART A. DAVIDSON, ESQUIRE 3 ---
4 120 East Palmetto Park Road
Suite 500
4 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
5 Boca Raton, FL 33432 5 Plf-15 Article 313
561.750.3000
6 Mdearman@rgdlaw.com 6 Plf-16 Article 327
7
Sdavidson@rgrdlaw.com
Representing the Plaintiffs
7 Plf-17 Article 327
8 8 Plf-18 Article 327
BRYAN CAVE
9 BY: KENNETH J. MALLIN, ESQUIRE 9 Plf-19 Article 329
10
BY: CHRISTOPHER SCHMIDT, ESQUIRE
One Metropolitan Square
10 Plf-20 E-mail 329
211 North Broadway 11
11 Suite 3600
St. Louis, MO 63102 12 (Exhibit Plf-17 was retained by
12 314.259.2569
Kjmalin@bryancave.com
13 counsel.)
13 Cjschmidt@bryancave.com 14
Representing the Domestic NHL Clubs
14 15
15 PROSKAUER ROSE
BY: JOSEPH BAUMGARTEN, ESQUIRE
16
16 BY: ADAM M. LUPION, ESQUIRE 17
Eleven Times Square
17 New York, NY 10036 18
18
212.969.3002
Jbaumgarten@proskauer.com
19
Alupion@proskauer.com 20
19 Representing the Nat onal Hockey League
20 21
21
ALSO PRESENT: 22
Wesley Schwartz, Videographer 23
22
23 24
24
25
25
Page 3 Page 5
1 --- 1 ---
2 INDEX 2 DEPOSITION SUPPORT INDEX
3 --- 3 ---
4 Testimony of: Jim McCrossin 4
5 By: Mr. Dearman 8 5 Direction to Witness Not to Answer
6 6 Page Line Page Line Page Line
7 --- 7 146 16 148 25 151 11
8 EXHIBITS 8 152 15 154 11 265 6
9 --- 9 270 10 270 19 271 7
10 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 10 309 22 312 17
11 Plf-1 Article 131 11
12 Plf-2 Article 157 12 Request for Production of Documents
13 Plf-3 Article 162 13 Page Line Page Line Page Line
14 Plf-4 Document 195 14 None
15 Plf-5 Analysis 200 15
16 Plf-6 E-mail Chain 2221 16 Questions Marked
17 Plf-7 E-mail 231 17 Page Line Page Line Page Line
18 Plf-8 E-mail 242 18 None
19 Plf-9 E-mail Chain 259 19
20 Plf-10 Medical History 275 20 Stipulations
21 Plf-11 Medical Evaluation 281 21 Page Line Page Line Page Line
22 Plf-12 Meeting Minutes 286 22 15 25
23 Plf-13 Prospective Study 391 23
24 Plf-14 Article 310 24
25 25

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1 --- 1 ---
2 PROCEEDINGS 2 EXAMINATION
3 --- 3 ---
4 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now 4 BY MR. DEARMAN:
5 on the record. My name is 5 Q. Good morning.
6 Wesley Schwartz. I'm the 6 A. Good morning.
7 videographer for Magna Legal 7 Q. My name is Mark Dearman.
8 Services. This is a video 8 I introduced myself to you earlier this
9 deposition of the United States 9 morning, and I'm going to be asking you
10 District Court of Minnesota. 10 some questions today. Okay?
11 Today's date is June 10, 11 A. Yes.
12 2015. The time is 9:25 a.m. 12 Q. I'm sure that you have
13 This deposition is being held at 13 gone over some of the rules, probably
14 2929 Arch Street, Philadelphia, 14 with your counsel, but just to be sure,
15 Pennsylvania in the matter of In 15 a few things. It is important that
16 RE: National Hockey League 16 neither of us speak at the same time.
17 Players' Concussion Injury 17 The court reporter is taking everything
18 Litigation. The deponent is Jim 18 down, and so in order for her to make a
19 McCrossin. This deposition is 19 clear record, it is important that you
20 being taken on behalf of the 20 wait for my entire question, and I
21 plaintiff. 21 likewise wait for your entire answer.
22 Would all counsel please 22 Okay?
23 identify themselves. 23 A. Yes.
24 MR. DEARMAN: Mark 24 Q. Sometimes in conversation
25 Dearman, on behalf of the 25 we go um-hm and uh-huh. For purposes
Page 7 Page 9
1 plaintiffs. 1 of making a clear record, that is also
2 MR. DAVIDSON: Stuart 2 something we'll try to avoid, so if
3 Davidson, also on behalf of the 3 that happens, somebody in the room,
4 plaintiffs. 4 probably myself or anybody else might
5 MR. MALLIN: Ken Mallin on 5 say, Mr. McCrossin, you mean yes or no?
6 behalf of Mr. McCrossin and the 6 Okay?
7 Domestic NHL Clubs. 7 A. Yes.
8 MR. SCHMIDT: Chris 8 Q. If you don't understand
9 Schmidt on behalf of Mr. 9 something that I ask you, say, Mark, I
10 McCrossin and the Domestic -- 10 don't understand it, and I'll do my
11 the US Hockey Club. 11 best to rephrase it in a way that you
12 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Joseph 12 can understand it. All right?
13 Baumgarten on behalf of National 13 A. Yes.
14 Hockey League. 14 Q. If you need to take a
15 MR. LUPION: Adam Lupion 15 break at any time, with the exception
16 on behalf of National Hockey 16 of maybe in the middle of a question
17 League. 17 that I'm asking you, we'll go ahead and
18 VIDEOGRAPHER: The court 18 take a break. This is not an endurance
19 reporter is Kathy Ruccolo, who 19 test. All right?
20 will now swear in the witness. 20 A. Yes.
21 --- 21 Q. Could you please state
22 Jim McCrossin, after 22 your full name?
23 having been duly sworn, was 23 A. James Michael McCrossin.
24 examined and testified as 24 Q. And where do you live,
25 follows: 25 sir?

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1 1 Q. And was there anyone else
2 2 present besides you and the two
3 Q. And where do you work? 3 attorneys to your right?
4 A. 601 Laurel Oak Road, 4 A. On that day, yes, Phil
5 Voorhees, New Jersey. 5 Weinberg.
6 Q. And who are you employed 6 Q. Anybody else?
7 by? 7 A. No.
8 A. Philadelphia Flyers. 8 Q. And what does Mr. Weinberg
9 Q. Are you represented here 9 do? I mean how is he affiliated with
10 today by counsel? 10 either the Flyers or --
11 A. Yes, I am. 11 A. He is our legal counsel
12 Q. Okay. Would that be the 12 for the Flyers.
13 two gentlemen to your right, that would 13 Q. Okay. During that first
14 be Ken and Chris? 14 day, were you shown any documents?
15 A. Yes. 15 MR. MALLIN: Now, anything
16 Q. Further down there are two 16 that may or may not have been
17 additional attorneys. Do you know who 17 shown during that particular
18 they are? 18 time period would be covered by
19 A. We've met, yes. 19 the attorney-client privilege,
20 Q. When did you meet them for 20 and so I'm going to instruct him
21 the first time? 21 not to answer that question.
22 A. This morning. 22 MR. DEARMAN: To the
23 Q. Okay. Have you had any 23 extent that I've asked whether
24 conversations with the two gentlemen on 24 he looked at anything, as
25 the end other than hi and how are you 25 opposed to specifics as to the
Page 11 Page 13
1 doing? 1 items or materials, you are
2 A. No. 2 instructing him not to answer?
3 Q. Okay. For purposes of 3 MR. MALLIN: You can ask
4 your deposition here today, did you do 4 him whether he looked at
5 anything to prepare? 5 anything, yes, but in terms of
6 A. Yes. 6 what he may or may not have
7 Q. Okay. Can you tell me 7 looked at, you cannot.
8 what it is that you did to prepare? 8 BY MR. DEARMAN:
9 A. I met with Ken and Chris. 9 Q. Right. The question was,
10 Q. Okay. When did you meet 10 were you shown any materials?
11 with Ken and Chris? 11 A. Yes.
12 A. Most recently yesterday, 12 Q. Okay. And did any of
13 two other times within the last three 13 those materials that you were shown
14 weeks, I suppose. 14 refresh your recollection regarding
15 Q. Okay. So you met a total 15 anything you were looking at those
16 of three times? 16 materials for?
17 A. Yes. 17 A. I can't really recall.
18 Q. And if you can recall the 18 Q. Okay. Is there any reason
19 first meeting, how long was that 19 today that you can't provide your best
20 meeting, just approximately? 20 testimony? And what I mean by that is,
21 A. I'm going to say six 21 are you on any medication today that
22 hours. 22 affects your ability to provide your
23 Q. And where was that at? 23 best testimony today?
24 A. At our practice facility 24 A. No.
25 in Voorhees. 25 Q. Okay. The second time

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1 that you met, was that also an 1 stipulate that if either we or
2 in-person meeting? 2 Brian Cave objects to a
3 A. Yes. 3 question, the other doesn't have
4 Q. Same location? 4 to; it's preserved as to both
5 A. Yes. 5 parties.
6 Q. How much time? 6 MR. DEARMAN: I would
7 A. Approximately six hours. 7 appreciate that greatly.
8 Q. Again, shown materials? 8 BY MR. DEARMAN:
9 A. Yes. 9 Q. Have you given your
10 Q. And did any of those 10 deposition before? Have you ever been
11 materials refresh your recollection? 11 deposed?
12 A. No. 12 A. Once.
13 Q. And then you had a third 13 Q. And in what circumstance
14 meeting, which was the most recent 14 or situation was that?
15 meeting to today, correct? 15 A. In my former life before
16 A. Yes. 16 hockey I was involved in physical
17 Q. And how many hours was 17 therapy, and it had to deal with a
18 that? 18 patient.
19 A. Six and a half. 19 Q. Okay. So you are
20 Q. Okay. Same location? 20 currently employed by whom?
21 A. Yes, sir. 21 A. The Philadelphia Flyers.
22 Q. Going back to the second 22 Q. And what is your title
23 meeting, was anyone else present 23 currently?
24 besides the two attorneys to your 24 A. Director of sports
25 right? 25 medicine.
Page 15 Page 17
1 A. No, I don't believe so. 1 Q. Okay. How long have you
2 Q. Okay. And the third 2 been employed by the Philadelphia
3 meeting, anybody else present besides 3 Flyers?
4 the two attorneys to your right? 4 A. Since 1998.
5 A. Phil Weinberg. 5 Q. About 21 years -- no.
6 Q. Have you -- 6 Seventeen years, eighteen years. Have
7 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Mark, 7 you had different titles during your
8 before we go further, I just 8 employment at the organization?
9 want to state on the record, we 9 A. Yes.
10 are going to designate the 10 Q. So currently it is the
11 transcript confidential pursuant 11 director of?
12 to the protective order in 12 A. Spots medicine.
13 place. If there are issues 13 Q. Okay. Prior to -- how
14 about what is and isn't, we'll 14 long have you been the director of
15 sort those out afterwards rather 15 sports medicine?
16 than have to go through it, slog 16 A. This will be my first full
17 through it question by question. 17 year.
18 MR. DEARMAN: And to be 18 Q. Prior to being the
19 clear, there definitely are 19 director of sports medicine, what was
20 objections to that designation, 20 your title?
21 but thank you very much. 21 A. Head athletic trainer and
22 MR. BAUMGARTEN: And just 22 head strength and conditioning coach.
23 one other housekeeping item. 23 Q. And how long were you the
24 MR. DEARMAN: Sure. 24 head athletic trainer and the head
25 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Can we 25 strength and conditioning coach?

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1 A. Since 2005. 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And prior to 2005, what 2 Q. Prior to 1998, were you
3 was your title with the organization? 3 employed?
4 A. I was the assistant 4 A. Yes.
5 athletic trainer and head strength and 5 Q. And in what fashion?
6 conditioning coach. 6 A. I was the assistant
7 Q. And how long were you the 7 athletic trainer and head strength
8 assistant athletic trainer and the 8 coach for the Philadelphia Phantoms.
9 head -- 9 Q. And how long did you do
10 A. From 1998. 10 that for?
11 Q. In 1998 who did you 11 A. 1996 through '98.
12 directly report to? 12 Q. And prior to that?
13 A. Bob Clark. 13 A. I was the assistant
14 Q. And what was Mr. Clark's 14 athletic trainer, head strength coach
15 title? 15 for the Hartford Whalers.
16 A. General manager. 16 Q. And for what period of
17 Q. Did you report to anybody 17 time?
18 else? 18 A. 1995 through '96.
19 A. On the athletic training 19 Q. Prior to that?
20 basis, John Worley. 20 A. I was vice president of
21 Q. And what was Mr. Worley's 21 Sports Physical Therapist.
22 title? 22 Q. And that's where you were
23 A. He was the head athletic 23 a physical therapist?
24 trainer. 24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did that change as far as 25 Q. Okay. And how long did
Page 19 Page 21
1 who you reported to anytime between '98 1 you do that for?
2 and 2005? 2 A. Let's make it clear, I'm
3 A. Well, 2005 John moved on 3 not a physical therapist.
4 and my direct report was Bob Clark. 4 Q. Okay.
5 Q. Okay. And you became the 5 A. From 1984 to '93.
6 head strength -- 6 Q. What were your duties and
7 A. And conditioning trainer. 7 responsibilities at that facility?
8 Q. And then from 2005 to the 8 A. I oversaw all day-to-day
9 time that you became the director of 9 operations within the company.
10 sports medicine, who is it that you 10 Q. And prior to that?
11 reported to? 11 A. Prior to that?
12 A. 2005, and I can't recall 12 Q. Yeah.
13 the date that Bob was promoted up to 13 A. I was a brick mason.
14 president, Paul Holmgren took over as 14 Q. Okay. How long did you do
15 GM and I reported to Paul, and then 15 that for?
16 Paul was promoted to president and Ron 16 A. Since the age of 13 until
17 Hextall was promoted to GM just last 17 I got out of college.
18 year, and now my direct report is to 18 Q. Okay. Can you give me
19 Ron Hextall. 19 just a little picture of your
20 Q. And Mr. Hextall, what is 20 educational history as it relates to
21 his position? 21 the -- either the sports training or
22 A. General manager. 22 the conditioning?
23 Q. So would it be fair that 23 A. Sure. I did my
24 you typically directly reported to the 24 undergraduate at West Chester
25 general manager of the organization? 25 University. I got my degree in

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1 athletic training. I did my graduate 1 the Flyers? I mean, what do you do?
2 studies at the United States Sports 2 A. The duties of the strength
3 Academy, and I got a degree in -- one 3 and conditioning coach are to prepare
4 master's degree in advanced physiology, 4 the athlete to play the sport
5 and I earned my sports medicine degree 5 physically through -- it's more the
6 through the academy and Pennsylvania 6 sports science that you are hearing.
7 Hospital in their sports medicine 7 It's strength training, cardiovascular
8 fellowship program. 8 training, nutrition. We have done
9 Q. Did your -- were your 9 sweat rate studies. It is to get to
10 duties and responsibilities during your 10 know the body inside and out.
11 time with the Flyers, when you served 11 Q. And is that something that
12 as an assistant athletic trainer, were 12 is done year round?
13 they the same or similar over the 13 A. Yes.
14 years? 14 Q. Okay. And then comparing
15 A. I guess I just need 15 that to an athletic trainer, what would
16 clarification, what you are looking 16 be the differences? What were your
17 for. 17 duties and responsibilities as an
18 Q. Sure. I'm trying to find 18 assistant athletic trainer?
19 out what type of duties and 19 A. Care and prevention of
20 responsibilities you had at the Flyers 20 injury, rehabilitation.
21 while you were an assistant athletic 21 Q. Is that year round as
22 trainer, and whether or not that 22 well?
23 changed from '98 to the time that you 23 A. Yes, it is.
24 were no longer an assistant athletic 24 Q. In the years that you
25 trainer. 25 worked for the Flyers, did you report
Page 23 Page 25
1 A. My main responsibility was 1 to anyone at the NHL?
2 as a strength and conditioning coach, 2 A. No.
3 and I did the rehabilitation for the 3 Q. Would you have any
4 team. 4 communications with anyone that worked
5 Q. And so the entire time 5 for the NHL in your positions with the
6 that you would have been a strength and 6 Flyers?
7 conditioning coach, would that have 7 MR. MALLIN: On any
8 been your primary responsibility? 8 subject?
9 A. No. I mean during game 9 MR. DEARMAN: On any
10 days -- game day I assisted John 10 subject at all.
11 Worley, and -- but during game day John 11 BY MR. DEARMAN:
12 was on the bench, and God forbid an 12 Q. I'll dig deeper, but I'm
13 injury occurred, John would take the 13 just trying to find out whether --
14 player back into the medical room, 14 A. I can't recall anything
15 because he knew what was going on from 15 specific.
16 his eval on the ice, and I would cover 16 Q. Okay. As an athletic
17 the bench. 17 trainer, do you take an oath?
18 Q. Okay. Then did there come 18 A. No.
19 a time where you were doing what John 19 Q. As an athletic trainer,
20 was doing while you were the assistant? 20 are you certified?
21 A. Yes. 21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. What does a 22 Q. And can you please tell me
23 strength and conditioner -- what is 23 what certifications you currently have?
24 strength and conditioning as far as 24 A. I'm certified by the Board
25 your duties and responsibilities for 25 of Certification through the National

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1 Athletic Trainers Association. I'm 1 ways, you can either attend courses,
2 licensed in the State of Pennsylvania 2 which I do, or you could take online
3 and the State of New Jersey as a 3 courses. The State of Pennsylvania
4 certified athletic trainer. I have my 4 mandates that you take their child
5 national certification in strength 5 abuse course, so that is mandatory for
6 conditioning through the National 6 all healthcare professionals. So that
7 Strength and Conditioning Association. 7 is through being a strength coach.
8 I'm licensed in -- I'm sorry, I'm 8 Q. Okay. And how about as an
9 certified through the National Academy 9 athletic trainer, are there CEU's for
10 of Sports Medicine as a corrective 10 an athletic trainer?
11 exercise specialist and performance 11 A. Yes.
12 exercise specialist. 12 Q. Okay. And can you tell me
13 Q. That covers that, your 13 about that process?
14 certifications? 14 A. It's a process that you
15 A. I have -- I'm certified 15 can earn your CEU's through going to
16 through High Point University in lower 16 course work, symposiums, online CEU's,
17 extremity and upper extremity 17 and in the State of Pennsylvania,
18 evaluations. 18 again, it is mandated you have to take
19 Q. Is there any continuing 19 a child abuse course. That is new, and
20 education with regard to any of those 20 that's every two years you have to
21 certifications? 21 report.
22 A. Yes. 22 Q. Talking about strength and
23 Q. Okay. And can you 23 conditioning, are there organizations
24 describe to me, let's stick with the 24 that -- any organizations that you
25 strength and conditioning, what type of 25 belong to associated with or affiliated
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1 continued education is there, 1 with strength and conditioning coaches?
2 typically? 2 A. The National Strength and
3 A. I guess I'm going to need 3 Conditioning Association, the NSCA.
4 a little bit more clarification on 4 Q. It is called the?
5 that. Would you need the number of 5 A. NSCA, the National
6 CEU's or you need the type of courses 6 Strength and Conditioning Association.
7 that I would need to take? 7 Q. And is that who you get
8 Q. Well, I guess if you tell 8 the CEU's from, or that is separate?
9 me what a CU is, I'll let you know. 9 A. No, it is separate.
10 A. CEU is continuing 10 Q. Okay. Do you receive any
11 education unit. 11 training from NSCA?
12 Q. Okay. So you need 12 A. Training through the
13 continuing education units to remain 13 organization?
14 certified as a strength and 14 Q. Yes.
15 conditioning -- 15 A. It's available.
16 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. And when you say,
17 Q. -- coach? Okay. Can you 17 it's available, what do you mean?
18 tell me how that is regulated? I mean, 18 A. Via coursework.
19 how often do you do it? Is it a yearly 19 Q. Is there an NSCA
20 thing? 20 publication, or are there publications?
21 A. It is every two years. 21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And do you have to go 22 Q. And is there more than
23 someplace to do that, or does it come 23 one?
24 to you? 24 A. Yes.
25 A. No, you can do it both 25 Q. Can you tell me how many

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1 there are? 1 publication and go through it and make
2 A. I believe from the NSCA, I 2 a determination as to what it is you
3 believe there is two. 3 want to read further about and what it
4 Q. And I guess we are talking 4 is you don't?
5 about current right now, when you 5 A. I read the abstracts, and
6 answered as far as two publications, 6 if it interests me, I'll read more.
7 now there are two publications? 7 Q. Okay. Would you say you
8 A. Yes. 8 pretty much read all of the abstracts
9 Q. Would that have been the 9 to make that determination?
10 same throughout the time that you were 10 A. No.
11 a strength and conditioning coach? 11 Q. Okay. So how is it then
12 A. Yes. 12 that you make a determination which
13 Q. Okay. And what are those 13 ones you want to read and you don't
14 publications called? 14 want to read? I'm just trying to
15 A. It is just titled NSCA 15 figure out, you get this publication,
16 Strength and Conditioning. 16 and I'm just trying to figure out what
17 Q. Okay. And is that mailed 17 you do with it.
18 to you, or e-mailed to you, or snail 18 A. Just repeat that question
19 mailed to you? 19 one more time.
20 A. I receive both, hardcopy 20 Q. Yeah, sure. You review --
21 and via the Internet. 21 you receive these materials, and I'm
22 Q. And how often do you get 22 trying to figure out, you receive them,
23 those materials? 23 what you do with them after you receive
24 A. Once a quarter. 24 them.
25 Q. And would that like -- 25 A. As I said, I read the ones
Page 31 Page 33
1 likewise, would that be the same since 1 that interest me, and I'm not a
2 you started as a strength and 2 hoarder, and I throw away the book.
3 conditioning coach? 3 Q. Okay. And just trying to
4 A. Yes. 4 figure out the ones that interest you,
5 Q. Okay. And are those 5 is that from an abstract or a title of
6 materials things that you keep? 6 a story?
7 A. No. 7 A. It could be from both. It
8 Q. Okay. Are those materials 8 could be from the title and then what
9 that you review? 9 the study was on.
10 A. Not all. 10 Q. Okay. Would you agree
11 Q. Okay. How do you decide 11 that your responsibilities and duties
12 which of those materials you are going 12 working for the Flyers' organization as
13 to keep up with or review and which you 13 a strength and conditioning coach
14 are not going to, which you are going 14 included keeping up with the materials
15 to disregard? 15 from the NSCA?
16 A. The ones that I feel that 16 A. No.
17 I'm not educated well enough. 17 Q. Okay. Would you agree
18 Q. Okay. And if you would 18 that as a strength and conditioning
19 tell me what topics those are that you 19 coach, in order to maintain your
20 would sort of stick to reviewing the 20 certifications, you would want to keep
21 materials regarding those topics? 21 up with the materials sent to you from
22 A. It varies according to my 22 the NSCA?
23 other course work that I've taken. 23 A. No.
24 Q. So just so I get a clear 24 Q. Okay. What is the purpose
25 picture, so you'll receive this 25 of the NSCA sending you these

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1 materials? 1 that you would translate to what you
2 A. Mostly to show what 2 are doing with your players?
3 research is going on at the lower 3 A. Yes.
4 levels. It is not your -- yeah, mostly 4 Q. Okay. Now, as an athletic
5 to keep up on research. 5 trainer, is there an organization
6 Q. Okay. Do you ever use the 6 similar to the NSCA?
7 information that you have reviewed from 7 A. Yes.
8 these materials in your day-to-day job? 8 Q. And what is that
9 A. For the strength? 9 organization?
10 Q. Yes. 10 A. The National Athletic
11 A. There has been times. 11 Trainers Association.
12 Q. Ever any information in 12 Q. NATA?
13 any of these materials that you deemed 13 A. Correct.
14 relevant to talk to any of the players 14 Q. Okay. NATA been around
15 about? 15 since you have been an athletic
16 A. From the publication? 16 trainer?
17 Q. Yeah. And whether you 17 A. Yes.
18 said it was from the publication or 18 Q. Okay. NATA provide any
19 it's something you learned and went 19 literature or publications to its
20 ahead and instituted? 20 members?
21 A. Not from the publication, 21 A. Yes.
22 no. 22 Q. Can you please tell me
23 Q. Okay. Can you give me any 23 about that literature and those
24 example of something that would be in 24 publications, just in a general sense?
25 this publication so that I can get a 25 A. Sure. Let me just make
Page 35 Page 37
1 better understanding of what we are 1 sure I get the -- sorry about that.
2 talking about? Any topic over the last 2 Q. Take your time.
3 15 years? 3 A. Let me just make sure I
4 A. The effects of plantar 4 get -- it's Athletic Therapy Today.
5 flexion and -- on a depth jump. 5 Q. Athletic?
6 Q. What is a depth jump? 6 A. Therapy Today.
7 A. Jumping off the top of a 7 Q. Okay.
8 table or a plyometric box. 8 A. The NATA does publish a
9 Q. Is that something you do 9 book, too, similar to the NSCA, but
10 in the strength and conditioning with 10 they are two of the top publications
11 your players? 11 that I receive.
12 A. I used to, yeah. 12 Q. And they come how many
13 Q. Okay. And so I'm just 13 times a year?
14 trying to get -- there is a disconnect 14 A. Quarterly.
15 for me, because if you're reading this 15 Q. Quarterly. Are these
16 article and it is talking to you about 16 things that you keep or don't keep?
17 that type of an exercise, is it 17 A. I keep Physical Therapy
18 something then that you would translate 18 Today and pass it on.
19 into what you are doing with your 19 Q. And when you say you pass
20 players as a strength and conditioning 20 it on, what do you mean by that?
21 coach? 21 A. To other clinicians that I
22 A. Sometimes it has no 22 feel may benefit from the articles.
23 relevance to what we are doing. 23 Q. And when you are referring
24 Q. Okay. And when it does 24 to other clinicians, are you talking
25 have relevance, would that be something 25 about other clinicians that are

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1 employed with the organization? 1 information that was relevant that may
2 A. Yes. 2 translate into what you were doing on a
3 Q. Any of the NSCA 3 daily basis with the players, you would
4 publications get passed on to other 4 go ahead and convey that information?
5 clinician or other employees or other 5 A. Yes.
6 people affiliated with the 6 Q. Either NSCA or NATA, have
7 organization? 7 you ever submitted any articles for
8 A. If there is an article 8 publication?
9 that has some credence, yes. 9 A. Not to the NSCA. To the
10 Q. And you use the term 10 NATA I was a coauthor.
11 credence, do you mean relevance or what 11 Q. And what was the title of
12 -- 12 that article?
13 A. Relevance, yeah. 13 A. I don't recall the actual
14 Q. Fair enough. And with 14 title. I can tell you the content.
15 regard to the NATA publication, 15 Q. Fair enough.
16 similarly, you would read what you 16 A. It was a heat rate, sweat
17 think was relevant to you? 17 rate study.
18 A. No, I generally read it 18 Q. And a sweat rate study is
19 from cover to cover. 19 what it sounds like, measure the degree
20 Q. Okay. And this is 20 of sweat? What is a sweat rate study,
21 quarterly? 21 might be easier, in general terms?
22 A. Yes. 22 A. In general terms, we
23 Q. And how do you receive 23 measure the amount of water loss and
24 this? 24 electrolyte loss from our players
25 A. Both. 25 during an exercise bout.
Page 39 Page 41
1 Q. Okay. 1 Q. And what was the
2 A. I receive a hardcopy and I 2 conclusion of the article or the point
3 receive a copy through the Internet. 3 of the article?
4 Q. And again, that has been 4 A. That no one individual is
5 the same routine since you became an 5 the same.
6 athletic trainer? 6 Q. Is there an ability, with
7 A. No. 7 regard to the Internet access to either
8 Q. Okay. When did you start 8 of these publications, to provide chats
9 reviewing those publications? 9 or comments or something online?
10 A. I received -- Athletic 10 A. It is peer reviewed.
11 Therapy Today came in 1989. 11 Q. Okay. Have you ever
12 Q. Okay. 12 provided any review or comments to any
13 A. And at that time in 1984 13 of the articles with the NSCA or NATA?
14 the NATA magazine wasn't on the 14 A. No.
15 Internet. I don't know if we had 15 Q. Why not?
16 Internet. 16 A. Because you can't.
17 Q. Okay. But irrespective of 17 Q. Okay. Are you familiar
18 how you received them, since you have 18 with, generally, what a medical history
19 been doing it you have been receiving 19 is?
20 these publications in one way or 20 A. Yes.
21 another? 21 Q. As either a trainer or an
22 A. Yes. 22 athletic trainer or a strength and
23 Q. And reviewing them? 23 conditioning coach, what is the purpose
24 A. Yes. 24 of a medical history, what you do?
25 Q. And again, if there was 25 A. What I do?

612.338.3376
Page 42 Page 44
1 Q. Yes, sir. 1 Q. Maybe we can work at it
2 A. I don't do them. It is 2 this way. When a medical history is
3 the physician that does the medical 3 taken from a player who initially comes
4 histories. 4 to the Flyers, as an athletic trainer
5 Q. Okay. And is there any 5 do you review that history?
6 relevance of what the medical history 6 A. With our physicians, yes.
7 reflects for a specific player to what 7 Q. Okay. So you actually
8 you do as a strength and conditioning 8 look at it?
9 coach? 9 A. Yes.
10 A. There is a lot of 10 Q. Okay. And has that been
11 relevance in terms of orthopedics that 11 the process for as long as you have
12 may play out. 12 been an athletic trainer with the
13 Q. Okay. So as a strength 13 Flyers?
14 and conditioning coach, the medical 14 A. Yes.
15 history is relevant to what you are 15 Q. Okay. Is it a specific
16 doing? 16 type of physician that you would review
17 A. The orthopedic evaluation 17 this with?
18 is very relevant, yes. 18 A. It is just not one
19 Q. Okay. You are using the 19 physician.
20 term, orthopedic evaluation. Are there 20 Q. Okay. So many physicians
21 other evaluations in these medical 21 for the same history, or different
22 histories that you are familiar with 22 physicians as time has progressed?
23 besides orthopedic? 23 A. No. It is different
24 A. Yes. 24 physicians for each phase of the
25 Q. What would those topics or 25 physical.
Page 43 Page 45
1 sections be? 1 Q. Okay. Why don't you
2 A. Allergies. 2 describe to me the physical, and how
3 Q. What is that? 3 the history comes about, and how this
4 A. Allergies. 4 is reviewed so that I get a picture of
5 Q. Okay. Anything else? 5 it, an understanding, because
6 A. Well, you can go down the 6 irrespective of whether -- and you
7 list, I mean, past medical history, 7 correct me if I'm wrong -- irrespective
8 cardiac history. 8 of whether you are an athletic trainer
9 Q. And when you use the term 9 or you are a strength and conditioning
10 and you say to me -- if I misstate 10 coach, the history and the physical is
11 this, you tell me -- when you say the 11 occurring, correct?
12 orthopedic history is something that is 12 So let's limit this
13 relevant to you, are you saying that 13 question, then, to the physical and
14 the cardiac history, for example, 14 obtaining the history and how that
15 wouldn't be? 15 happens, and let's start with a new
16 A. You asked about a strength 16 player, and then we can talk about
17 coach. 17 players that have, from year to year,
18 Q. I did, you are absolutely 18 played for the Flyers.
19 right. So as a strength coach, you 19 A. Okay.
20 aren't interested in whether a player 20 Q. Thank you.
21 has a medical history of some cardiac 21
22 situation? 22
23 A. I'm very interested in it, 23
24 but again, I let it up to our doctors 24
25 to tell us what to do. 25

612.338.3376
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1 1 A. Yes.
2 2 Q. There has always been a
3 3 dentist?
4 4 A. Yes.
5 5
6 6
7 7
8 8
9 9
10 10
11 11
12 12
13 13 Q. Okay. So then the answer
14 14 to the question is, since you've been
15 15 with the organization as a trainer, it
16 16 has not always been the same group of
17 17 medical staff, correct?
18 18 A. No, correct.
19 19 Q. So there was an internist,
20 20 there was an orthopedist, and there was
21 21 a dentist from the beginning of your
22 22 involvement?
23 23 A. And an ophthalmologist.
24 24
25 25
Page 47 Page 49
1 1
2 2
3 3
4 Q. And the medical team would 4 Q. Thank you. And then the
5 be defined as the internist, the 5 process whereby they sit with the
6 orthopedist, the dentist, the 6 athletic trainer, the group of doctor,
7 neurologist, the neuropsychologist and 7 and go over the charts, correct?
8 anybody else. Is there anybody else 8 A. Yes.
9 that is part of that team? 9 Q. And what is the purpose of
10 A. Yeah, the athletic 10 that for you as an athletic trainer?
11 trainer. 11 A. Because I'm not an expert
12 Q. Okay. What about the 12 in every field, I like it defined by an
13 strength and conditioning coach? 13 expert and guided by an expert to tell
14 A. No. 14 us what we need to do, if we need
15 Q. Okay. And this process 15 further follow-up with that particular
16 that you have described to me, has that 16 athlete on any pathology, and --
17 been the same since you started with 17 Q. So as an athletic trainer,
18 the Flyers? 18 are you interested in what the dentist
19 A. Yes. 19 has to say? I'm just trying to figure
20 Q. So there has always been 20 out the nuts and bolts.
21 an internist? 21 A. I am.
22 A. Internal medicine doctor, 22
23 yes. 23
24 Q. There has always been an 24
25 orthopedist? 25

612.338.3376
Page 50 Page 52
1 1 A. The scope of the athletic
2 2 trainers is care and prevention, and
3 3 that is what you are looking to do.
4 4 Q. And the first thing that I
5 5 asked you about with regards to why is
6 6 it relevant, you said man games lost.
7 7 Is there anything else?
8 8 A. No.
9 9
10 10
11 11
12 12
13 13
14 14
15 15
16 16
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20
21 21
22 22
23 Q. You referred to this as 23
24 man games lost, is that what you said 24
25 or just man games? I'm trying to 25
Page 51 Page 53
1 figure out what you referred to it as. 1
2 A. Man games lost, or days 2
3 lost. 3
4 Q. What was that? 4
5 A. Or days lost. 5
6 Q. Is that a term that's used 6
7 within the organization, days lost or 7
8 man games lost? 8
9 A. Man games lost. 9
10 Q. Okay. And as an athletic 10
11 trainer, what is the relevance of man 11
12 games lost within this organization? 12
13 A. Well, it is just a number, 13
14 you know, that you are looking to -- it 14
15 is just a number, you know, that if you 15
16 miss three games, you miss three games 16
17 due to wisdom teeth impaction. 17
18 Q. Well, is it an athletic 18 Q. Is a preexisting injury
19 trainer's responsibilities and duties 19 something that would be significant to
20 to minimize man games lost? 20 a trainer?
21 A. No. 21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So if it's not your duty 22 Q. And is that something that
23 or responsibility to minimize it, why 23 you can say generally why that would be
24 is it relevant to you that there may be 24 of interest to you? Why, as a trainer,
25 man games lost relating to dentistry? 25 would you be interested in knowing what

612.338.3376
Page 54 Page 56
1 a player's preexisting injuries are? 1
2 A. For myself, and our 2
3 medical team, a preexisting injury 3
4 could lead to another injury, possibly 4
5 lead to another injury. 5
6 Q. So for example, a prior 6
7 knee injury may be something that would 7
8 be interesting to you as a trainer? 8
9 A. Yes. 9
10 Q. An injury to a wrist might 10
11 be something that would be interesting 11
12 to you? 12 Q. And so is that
13 A. Yes. 13 specifically why they were brought onto
14 Q. Maybe if a player had 14 the team, to administer those baseline
15 asthma, would that be of interest to 15 tests?
16 you? 16 A. If I can just get some
17 A. Yes. 17 clarity from you because --
18 Q. How about if a player 18 Q. Absolutely.
19 reported that he'd had multiple 19 A. -- you keep on saying,
20 concussions previously -- 20 bring it onto the team.
21 A. Yes. 21 Q. Yes.
22 Q. -- that would be of 22 A. And I did hear your
23 interest to you? 23 question.
24 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay.
25 Q. Why would that be of 25 A. And you said -- they are
Page 55 Page 57
1 interest to you? 1 not part of our team.
2 A. Again, not being an expert 2 Q. Okay.
3 in concussions, anytime you sustain 3 A. So maybe that is where I'm
4 multiple type of injuries, not just to 4 a little mistaken, and I just want to
5 the head, but to any part of the body, 5 bring some clarity, because you said --
6 you would have to think that, are they 6 and I said no, and you said they were
7 predisposed in some manner to another 7 brought.
8 one? Again, I would have to refer to 8 Q. I got it.
9 our doctors why they would be more 9 A. Okay. So you get it now,
10 interested, but for me multiple 10 they are not part of our team.
11 injuries to any part of the body would 11 Q. I understand. When I say
12 stick out. 12 team, you are talking about the Flyers,
13 Q. Okay. And that would 13 and they are not part of the Flyers
14 be -- that belief that you have or that 14 team, is what you are telling me?
15 philosophy that you have is something 15 A. We've always had people
16 you've had since you have been an 16 such as neuropsychologists and
17 athletic trainer, correct? 17 neurosurgeons -- I'm sorry,
18 A. Yes. 18 neurologists -- as part of our medical
19 19 team, but I'm getting confused when you
20 20 say team and team.
21 21 Q. Fair enough.
22 22 A. So if we can address it as
23 23 medical team, then there would be less
24 24 confusion for me.
25 25 Q. I completely agree with

612.338.3376
Page 58 Page 60
1 you, and I appreciate that 1
2 clarification. 2
3 So what was the purpose of 3
4 bringing the neurologist and 4
5 neuropsychologist onto the medical 5
6 team? 6
7 A. They were there to go 7
8 ahead and perform our baseline testing 8
9 preseason, before the boys took the 9
10 ice. 10
11 Q. The baseline testing that 11
12 you are referring to, did that occur 12
13 prior to the time, did it occur in any 13 Q. And who is that team
14 fashion prior to the time that the 14 physician?
15 neurologist and the neuropsych was 15 A. Dr. Gary Dorshimer, and
16 added to the medical team? 16 it's spelled D-O-R-S-H-I-M-E-R, first
17 A. Yes. 17 name Gary.
18 Q. And can you tell me how 18 Q. Now, you referred to him
19 far back that took place in some 19 as a team physician, not --
20 fashion? 20 A. Yes.
21 A. I can't recall. 21 Q. Okay. So what is the
22 Q. Okay. Was that baseline 22 distinction between Dr. Dorshimer and
23 testing being done when you started 23 the medical team?
24 with the organization? 24 A. Dr. Dorshimer oversees the
25 A. I can't recall. 25 medical team.
Page 59 Page 61
1 Q. Did the baseline testing 1 Q. And he actually works for
2 change in any fashion once the 2 the team?
3 neurologist and the neuropsych were 3 A. He gets a stipend. I
4 brought onto the team, besides the fact 4 don't know if that classifies him as an
5 they were now administering the 5 employee.
6 baseline testing, if you know? 6 Q. Okay. Fair enough. What
7 A. Could you just repeat that 7 type of doctor is Dr. Dorshimer?
8 one more time, please. 8 A. Internal medicine/sports
9 9 medicine physician.
10 10
11 11
12 12
13 13
14 14
15 15
16 16
17 17 Q. Okay. Now, I may have
18 18 asked this, I'm not sure if I exhausted
19 19 it or not. As an athletic trainer,
20 20 what was it that you utilized any of
21 21 the neurological findings or history
22 22 for as part of your job?
23 23 MR. MALLIN: Just object
24 24 to form.
25 25 THE WITNESS: Again, not

612.338.3376
Page 62 Page 64
1 being an expert, I would defer 1 Q. Do you recall when that
2 everything to the neurologist or 2 was?
3 neuropsychologist to really 3 A. I don't.
4 break it down if they saw 4 Q. And what is the impact
5 anything during their testing 5 study?
6 that was relevant to a possible 6 A. It is a computerized
7 -- well, put it this way, if 7 baseline testing.
8 they didn't pass their baseline, 8 Q. And how was that test
9 the player wouldn't be allowed 9 administered?
10 to go out and play. But if we 10 A. By a neuropsychologist.
11 were forming a baseline on a 11 Q. By definition, then, does
12 player that's never taken the 12 that mean that that had to be within
13 King-Devick or a SCATII, now a 13 the last five years, based on your
14 SCATIII test, if they had 14 approximate time frame of five years,
15 symptoms reported we would have 15 that a neurologist joined the medical
16 to do further investigation. 16 team?
17 BY MR. DEARMAN: 17 MR. MALLIN: Object to
18 Q. Can you tell me how the 18 form.
19 baseline is performed, how that test is 19 THE WITNESS: Our
20 performed so I can get a better 20 neuropsychologist has been with
21 understanding, when we say baseline, of 21 us. She is not a neurologist.
22 what it is that you're referring to? 22 We do have neurologists, as I
23 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Objection 23 stated. The impact study has to
24 to the form. You may want to 24 be administered by a
25 specify a time frame. 25 neuropsychologist.
Page 63 Page 65
1 BY MR. DEARMAN: 1 BY MR. DEARMAN:
2 Q. I mean, if the baseline 2 Q. Has there been more than
3 testing has changed over the time that 3 one neuropsychologist?
4 you have been there, are you aware of 4 A. No.
5 whether it has changed besides adding 5 Q. What is her name?
6 King-Devick? 6 A. Dr. Gerri, G-E-R-R-I,
7 A. Yes. 7 McGiniss, M-C-G-I-N-I-S-S.
8 Q. So let's start with the 8 Q. So is it the
9 first baseline testing that you can 9 neuropsychologist that administers the
10 recall being administered. Can you 10 baseline testing?
11 tell me how that was administered and 11 A. Yes.
12 about what time we are talking about? 12 Q. Okay. How long has --
13 A. When I can first recall? 13 A. I'm sorry.
14 Q. Yes. 14 Q. That is all right.
15 A. So we are going back to 15 A. Just to clarify, she
16 '98, in that range, in that area? 16 administers the impact study.
17 Q. If you can go back to '98, 17 Q. Okay. Which is part of
18 that would be fantastic. 18 the baseline testing?
19 A. I don't know if -- I can't 19 A. Part or it, yes.
20 answer that one honestly, so I won't. 20 Q. So how long has Gerri been
21 But the first one that I know was 21 with the medical team?
22 implemented was the impact study. That 22 A. Thirty years.
23 is I-M-P-A-C-T, impact. 23 Q. And has Gerri, as far as
24 Q. I-M-P-A-C-T? 24 you know, in the last 30 years, always
25 A. Yes. 25 administered an impact study?

612.338.3376
Page 66 Page 68
1 MR. MALLIN: Just object 1 A. Yes.
2 to the form. 2 Q. Okay. When is an impact
3 BY MR. DEARMAN: 3 study done?
4 Q. I guess I'm trying to 4 A. Talking about today?
5 figure out, if she has been there for 5 Q. Well, let's go back, I
6 30 years, she's the one that does it, 6 mean, if you can tell me -- you know,
7 has she been doing it the whole time 7 obviously it has changed over the
8 that she has been there, if you know? 8 years, I'm understanding from your
9 A. I'm sorry. Gerri has been 9 question, so if you can tell me from
10 the person that's administered all of 10 the time it was initially administered
11 our impact studies, yes. 11 how often it would have been
12 Q. Has the impact study been 12 administered. Was it something that
13 administered to players over the last 13 was done once a year?
14 30 years? 14 MR. MALLIN: I'll object
15 MR. MALLIN: Object to 15 to the form.
16 form. 16 BY MR. DEARMAN:
17 BY MR. DEARMAN: 17 Q. Do you understand the
18 Q. If you know. 18 question?
19 A. I know it has not been 19 A. No, I really don't.
20 administered over the past 30 years. 20 Q. Okay. The impact study is
21 Q. Okay. Can you cut the 21 a test whereby a player engages with a
22 window down any further for me? 22 computer of some sort; is that correct?
23 A. I can't. 23 A. Correct.
24 Q. So can you tell me about 24 Q. It is about 30 minutes?
25 the impact study, what your knowledge 25 A. Correct.
Page 67 Page 69
1 of it is? 1 Q. Is that something that is
2 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to 2 done once a month? Has it ever been
3 the form. 3 done once a month to any players that
4 THE WITNESS: I can't. 4 you have knowledge of?
5 BY MR. DEARMAN: 5 A. No.
6 Q. How is it administered? 6 Q. Okay. How about once
7 A. Via computer. 7 every other month?
8 Q. Have you ever seen it 8 A. Yes.
9 administered? 9 Q. Okay. What is the --
10 A. Yes. 10 would you say that once every other
11 Q. Have you ever taken it? 11 month is the average that it is
12 A. Yes. 12 performed?
13 Q. Why did you take it? 13 A. No.
14 A. To get a good feel what my 14 Q. Can you give me an
15 players were doing. 15 average?
16 Q. When did you do it? 16 A. Once a year.
17 A. I can't recall. 17 Q. Okay. Why would it be
18 Q. Have you done it more than 18 performed once every year for some
19 once? 19 players and maybe once every other
20 A. No. 20 month for another player?
21 Q. Do you know how long it 21 MR. MALLIN: In responding
22 takes? 22 to that question, be very
23 A. Approximately 30 minutes. 23 careful. We are not going to
24 Q. Is an impact study done 24 allow Mr. McCrossin to provide
25 more than once a year? 25 any personal medical history

612.338.3376
Page 70 Page 72
1 relating to any player unless 1 team, Gerri would be the one performing
2 you have a release from that 2 the impact studies, correct?
3 player. 3 MR. BAUMGARTEN: I'll
4 So I'll caution you not to 4 object to the form of the
5 disclose any such medical 5 question. I think he already
6 information about any particular 6 testified she has always been
7 player. Otherwise, if you can 7 the one that performed the
8 respond generally to his 8 testing.
9 question, you should. 9 MR. DEARMAN: That is
10 MR. DEARMAN: Can you 10 great.
11 provide me a little bit more 11 BY MR. DEARMAN:
12 information with respect to that 12 Q. You can answer. She would
13 objection? Is that based on -- 13 be the one that did it, right?
14 what is that based on? 14 A. Well, that wasn't the
15 MR. MALLIN: It's based on 15 question.
16 the fact, unless you have a 16 Q. Okay.
17 release from a player, this 17 MR. DEARMAN: Would you
18 witness is not going to talk 18 read back the question, please?
19 about any other medical history 19 ---
20 of any other players. That is 20 (At this time the court
21 the line that we've drawn, and 21 reporter read back from the
22 that we will continue to draw 22 record as was requested.)
23 throughout the course of this 23 ---
24 deposition. 24 BY MR. DEARMAN:
25 BY MR. DEARMAN: 25 Q. That is a yes-or-no
Page 71 Page 73
1 Q. Okay. At this point I'm 1 answer.
2 not asking you for a player's name or 2 A. Gerri has always been --
3 jersey number, or even his height or 3 she wasn't prior to, but Gerri has been
4 weight, all I'm asking you is -- and 4 our neuropsychologist.
5 the question is, why would some have it 5 Q. I understand that.
6 once a year and some might have it once 6 A. Okay. You said prior to.
7 every other month? 7 Q. When the neurologist was
8 MR. MALLIN: And in 8 added to the medical team, Gerri
9 responding to the question, as I 9 continued to do it?
10 mentioned earlier, do not 10 A. Yes, correct.
11 disclose any personal medical 11 Q. Okay. Is the reason that
12 information or history from any 12 you -- after the first impact study is
13 player. 13 taken, is the reason that you would do
14 BY MR. DEARMAN: 14 a second impact study to a player
15 Q. That can be a standing 15 because the player had suffered an
16 objection for the whole depo, so as 16 injury to the head?
17 long as you understand that we won't 17 MR. MALLIN: Object to
18 have to keep talking about that. 18 form.
19 A. Impact studies are done 19 BY MR. DEARMAN:
20 once a year to get a baseline. Impact 20 Q. You can answer that.
21 studies are done, they are there to 21 A. Yes.
22 help. They are an adjunct with other 22 Q. Okay. And so going back
23 tests, if a player was concussed. 23 then to my question, which is why would
24 Q. So prior to the time that 24 one player possibly do this once a year
25 a neurologist was added to the medical 25 and another player do this every other

612.338.3376
Page 74 Page 76
1 month? Without giving me the name of 1 player is back to baseline if we
2 the player or identity of the player, 2 suspected a head injury.
3 what would be the reason that would 3 BY MR. DEARMAN:
4 happen? 4 Q. So then would the
5 MR. MALLIN: Object to 5 reason -- or at least one reason be
6 form. 6 that a player would be doing it every
7 BY MR. DEARMAN: 7 other month, for example, is because
8 Q. What is your understanding 8 they were not meeting their prior
9 of that? 9 baseline?
10 MR. MALLIN: Same 10 MR. MALLIN: Object to
11 objection. 11 form.
12 MR. BAUMGARTEN: It has 12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 already been asked and answered. 13 BY MR. DEARMAN:
14 BY MR. DEARMAN: 14 Q. Yes. Okay. Now, in
15 Q. You can answer the 15 addition to the impact study, what
16 question. There are going to be 16 other testing is done with regard to
17 objections. Unless -- 17 what you referred to as baseline
18 A. I know that, I'm trying to 18 testing?
19 figure out what. 19 MR. MALLIN: At any point
20 Q. Let me give you another 20 in time?
21 instruction, which maybe your counsel 21 BY MR. DEARMAN:
22 told you or not. Unless your counsel 22 Q. Prior to the time that a
23 advises you or instructs you not to 23 neurologist joined the medical team.
24 answer a question, even though there is 24 A. Well, we -- I guess I'm
25 an objection, it is for the judge and 25 going to ask for some clarification on
Page 75 Page 77
1 the court, you can still answer the 1 time, not before -- like, we've always
2 question. 2 had a neurologist that was part of our
3 A. Okay. 3 medical team. All right? But your
4 Q. If you need me to repeat 4 question is, if I have it right, and
5 it or the reporter to repeat it, we'll 5 please forgive me, is that what other
6 do that for you. 6 testing was done prior to that, or do
7 A. If you don't mind. 7 you want to know what type of testing,
8 MR. DEARMAN: Would you 8 like baseline -- not baseline testing,
9 please read the question again? 9 but neuropsych testing we did at
10 --- 10 different, you know, portions of, like,
11 (At this time the court 11 my career?
12 reporter read back from the 12 Q. I think maybe some clarity
13 record as was requested.) 13 is needed. Prior to the time that a
14 --- 14 neurologist joined the medical team
15 MR. MALLIN: If you are 15 five years ago, or approximately five
16 going to repeat the question, 16 years ago, was there another
17 just make sure that my objection 17 neurologist or a neurologist on the
18 is noted. Thank you. 18 medical team?
19 THE WITNESS: A player -- 19 A. We've had neurologists
20 as stated before, we use the 20 throughout my career, yes.
21 baseline or the impact study as 21 Q. So five years ago, what
22 an adjunct with other neuropsych 22 was the difference between what was
23 tests to help us determine, to 23 five years ago and what was eight years
24 help the medical staff and the 24 ago or ten years ago as far as a
25 physicians determine if the 25 neurologist being on the team? I

612.338.3376
Page 78 Page 80
1 understood you to indicate that as of 1 only speak for yourself, you mean if
2 about five years ago a neurologist 2 you administered the test, or what do
3 joined a neuropsych, who had been there 3 you mean by that?
4 on the team. 4 A. I don't administer it.
5 A. For the testing, the 5 The physician will administer it. I
6 preseason testing, yes. 6 use the SCATII paperwork for daily --
7 Q. Okay. All right. So 7 for the players that come in and put
8 let's stick with testing. 8 down what symptoms they are having,
9 A. Sure. 9 because that is the only thing
10 Q. And what then was added -- 10 objective I can get other than my
11 what else was done for preseason 11 subjective feedback from them. I want
12 testing prior to the time that a 12 hard core objective, what they are
13 neurologist was added to the team for 13 feeling. So when I do that, I scan it
14 that purpose? 14 into the medical files so it is in
15 A. We did the Impact as 15 there permanently, and I share it with
16 mentioned. 16 the team physician.
17 Q. Right. 17 Q. So when the SCATII was the
18 A. For all new players, they 18 test being utilized, it would be
19 would have a paper and pencil test. 19 utilized preseason, correct?
20 What else did we do at that point? We 20 A. The SCATII would be for
21 did the SCATII. I believe that is it. 21 baseline, yes.
22 Q. Okay. What is the paper 22 Q. And it would also be used
23 and pencil test? 23 if a player had a head injury?
24 A. That is way beyond my 24 A. If they sustained an
25 scope. You would have to ask 25 injury during a game or practice, the
Page 79 Page 81
1 Dr. McGiniss. 1 player would be pulled and that would
2 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen 2 be part of the evaluation performed by
3 the paper and pencil test administered? 3 the physician.
4 A. No. 4 Q. Okay. Injury to what?
5 Q. Okay. And the SCATII, 5 A. To the head.
6 what is that? 6
7 A. The SCAT test is done off 7
8 of an iPad. It is -- the player's 8
9 actually giving their symptoms at the 9
10 time of injury. It is memory recall, 10
11 it is word recognition, it is added 11
12 balance now -- that was SCATII. Okay. 12
13 We've now switched to SCATIII. 13
14 Q. Going to SCATII, you 14
15 referenced an iPad. Was it always an 15
16 iPad or was it just some device? 16
17 A. It was -- it was an iPad, 17
18 but prior to that it was paper and 18
19 pencil before we had iPads. 19
20 Q. The paper and pencil 20
21 SCATII's, are those maintained as part 21
22 of a player's medical records? 22
23 A. I can only speak for 23
24 myself, and yes. 24
25 Q. And when you say you can 25

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1 1 record.
2 2 ---
3 3 (At this time a short
4 4 break was taken.)
5 5 ---
6 6 VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins
7 7 DVD number two. The time is
8 8 10:47 a.m. We are back on the
9 9 record.
10 10 BY MR. DEARMAN:
11 11 Q. So back where we were
12 12 before we took a break. Besides
13 13 counsel, attorneys, anyone who works
14 14 for the organization or worked for the
15 15 organization provide you with verbal or
16 16 otherwise instructions about medical
17 17 records and how they should be
18 18 maintained?
19 19 A. I can't recall.
20 20 Q. Now, you said that with
21 21 regards to SCATII testing, that was
22 22 paper and pencil before iPad or the
23 23 like, that was something that you
24 24 would -- you yourself would have
25 25 maintained by scanning them somehow,
Page 83 Page 85
1 1 correct?
2 2 A. Correct.
3 MR. MALLIN: I don't want 3 Q. Do you know when that
4 to say -- 4 started?
5 MR. DEARMAN: To be 5 A. I can't recall.
6 clear -- 6 Q. Was there anyone else
7 THE WITNESS: No. 7 within the organization who would have,
8 MR. MALLIN: Stop. 8 and I'm not really -- when you talk
9 MR. DEARMAN: Any 9 about the SCATII testing and your
10 conversations you may have had 10 involvement, is it because the
11 with any attorney on behalf of 11 materials would be handed to you from
12 the Flyers inside the 12 the physician, is that what would
13 organization or outside the 13 happen?
14 organization are privileged and 14 A. Yes.
15 should not be disclosed. 15 Q. Okay. Is there anyone
16 This is probably at some 16 else in the organization besides you
17 point here a good time to break 17 that materials -- I know what you did
18 for a little bit of a bathroom 18 with them when you got the SCATII's,
19 break. If this is a good time, 19 we've established that.
20 that would be appreciated. 20 Would a SCATII test have
21 And thank you for letting 21 been handed to anybody else possibly
22 me know he is the workers' comp 22 besides you, or would all of them have
23 attorney. 23 been handed to you, and therefore
24 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 24 scanned?
25 10:37 a.m. We are off the 25 MR. MALLIN: Object to

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1 form. 1 medical history, neurological medical
2 THE WITNESS: They would 2 history?
3 all be handed to me. 3 MR. MALLIN: Object to
4 BY MR. DEARMAN: 4 form. Again, just caution you
5 Q. Okay. And after pencil 5 not to disclose any personal
6 and paper and we get to the iPad or the 6 player medical information.
7 like device, how were those SCATII's 7 THE WITNESS: Again, just
8 maintained, if they were? 8 so -- I believe I have -- your
9 A. SCATIII -- SCATIII or 9 question is that when we did the
10 SCATII? 10 baseline testing, did we review
11 Q. I'm sticking with SCATII. 11 or compare it to their
12 Was SCATII administered with an 12 neurological history, what the
13 electronic device of some sort after 13 player may have put down?
14 pencil and paper, or did it go directly 14 BY MR. DEARMAN:
15 to SCATIII at that point? 15 Q. Well, either when the
16 A. It went to SCATIII. 16 testing was done or after the day when
17 Q. So do you know when SCATII 17 everybody sat down and you were there,
18 -- when you guys started using SCATIII, 18 and you were now talking about the
19 is that something that you know? 19 baseline or you're talking about the
20 A. I don't recall the exact 20 player, I'm asking when you look at the
21 date. 21 baseline, are you also referring to the
22 Q. Okay. And how are SCATIII 22 medical -- neurological medical history
23 results maintained? 23 provided by the player?
24 A. Computerized. 24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So going back to before 25 Q. Why?
Page 87 Page 89
1 SCATIII, there was an Impact study, a 1 MR. MALLIN: Object to
2 paper and pencil study and the SCATII 2 form.
3 for preseason, correct, as far as the 3 THE WITNESS: If a player
4 baseline testing is concerned? 4 repeated -- we'll go with a new
5 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to 5 player.
6 the form. 6 BY MR. DEARMAN:
7 THE WITNESS: 7 Q. Yes.
8 Clarification again, I think I 8 A. If a new player reported
9 stated this, that for new 9 having concussions the season before,
10 players -- new players, all 10 and for some reason we signed that
11 three would be administered. 11 player, does not matter from free
12 For a preseason physical, if you 12 agency or from a trade, and the
13 were not, you wouldn't have to 13 baseline scores show that they still
14 repeat the paper and pencil 14 have symptoms, then the determination
15 testing for a baseline. 15 would be made by the physicians whether
16 BY MR. DEARMAN: 16 or not, should that player be put back
17 Q. You would do an Impact 17 on the ice or put on the ice, or should
18 study and a SCATII? 18 there be further followed up through a
19 A. Yes. 19 specialist.
20 Q. Okay. Now, in your 20 Q. I'm trying to understand,
21 experience, being present when the 21 a new player comes in and does a
22 medical team was discussing a new 22 baseline. That is his first baseline,
23 player's baseline results, would you 23 correct?
24 refer back -- was part of the process 24 A. No.
25 to look at the player's history, 25 Q. Okay. You've got a prior

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1 baseline from a prior team, possibly? 1 doing baselines with the organization?
2 A. There should be one, if 2 A. Yes.
3 they played in the NHL. 3 Q. And what is the
4 Q. Okay. And so if a new 4 significance of --
5 player who played in the NHL was going 5 MR. DEARMAN: Can you read
6 to start with the organization, in 6 that last answer for me?
7 addition to performing the baseline on 7 ---
8 that physical day, you would also, when 8 (At this time the court
9 you were looking at the medical history 9 reporter read back from the
10 of the player, you would also look at a 10 record as was requested.)
11 prior baseline, if there was one? That 11 ---
12 would all be looked at? 12 BY MR. DEARMAN:
13 A. Yes. 13 Q. And why can't you put them
14 Q. Okay. And what was the -- 14 back on the ice?
15 what was the reason to actually look at 15 A. Because our physicians
16 the medical history, the neurological 16 wouldn't clear them with symptoms.
17 medical history? 17 Q. Do you know why?
18 So you have a baseline 18 A. Because of the risk of a
19 that is off from the prior baseline. 19 second impact syndrome.
20 What is the purpose of looking at the 20 Q. And what is a second
21 neurological -- from a trainer 21 impact syndrome?
22 standpoint, what is the reason you'd 22 A. That is a concussion
23 want to look at the neurological 23 sustained or a head injury sustained
24 history, medical history? 24 while the player or person may still be
25 MR. MALLIN: Object to 25 concussed.
Page 91 Page 93
1 form, and again caution you not 1 Q. And is that a term that
2 to disclose any personal medical 2 you have been familiar with and
3 information. 3 utilized since the time that you
4 THE WITNESS: If the 4 started with the organization?
5 baseline is off, or let's say 5 A. No.
6 that the player did not have a 6 Q. Okay. When did you start
7 baseline, they came from the 7 -- when did you start using the term or
8 Czech Republic, where they don't 8 become familiar with the term, second
9 do Impact studies, and yet they 9 impact syndrome?
10 are still reporting symptoms, 10 A. I can't recall.
11 okay, that they are reporting 11 Q. In addition to -- before
12 symptoms related to a head-like 12 you were using the term second --
13 injury, the medical staff would 13 before you yourself were familiar with
14 have to think -- you know, 14 the term, second impact syndrome, you
15 again, our medical staff would 15 were still running a baseline test,
16 think that further follow-up is 16 correct, for new players?
17 going to be necessary. We can't 17 A. Yes.
18 put this player on the ice at 18 Q. Okay. Because that has
19 this point because they have 19 been going on since you got to the
20 symptoms that are mimicking 20 organization, correct, in some form?
21 that, possibly, of a concussion 21 A. In some form.
22 or a head injury. 22 Q. Okay. Are you aware at
23 BY MR. DEARMAN: 23 any time -- again, I'm not asking you
24 Q. And has that been the 24 to identify any player, but even before
25 process since the time you can recall 25 you were familiar with the term, second

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1 impact syndrome, that a player who had 1 Q. Let me reask that
2 had either a baseline that wasn't at 2 question. At some point in time you
3 their original baseline or had some 3 started using the term, second impact
4 other symptoms would be allowed to be 4 syndrome, correct?
5 -- allowed to play and get on the ice? 5 A. Yes.
6 MR. MALLIN: Object to 6 Q. Or you became familiar
7 form. 7 with it?
8 BY MR. DEARMAN: 8 A. I became familiar with it.
9 Q. And if you need me to 9 Q. And you described that as
10 clarify that further, I will. 10 being the amount of time between head
11 A. Please. 11 injuries, correct?
12 Q. Okay. So at some point 12 A. Correct.
13 you started using second impact 13 Q. Okay. And you've
14 syndrome, and you described that as 14 indicated that that would affect a
15 having one head injury close to another 15 player's ability to go back out on the
16 head injury, correct? 16 ice, correct, your concern for a second
17 A. Correct. 17 impact?
18 Q. Was that maybe the way -- 18 A. Yes.
19 maybe I should first find out, even not 19 Q. Okay. And I'm asking you
20 referring to it as second impact 20 whether, even if you didn't call it a
21 syndrome, is that something that you, 21 second impact syndrome, whether or not
22 as a trainer, were concerned about 22 you were concerned about the amount of
23 going back to the time that you started 23 time between head injuries prior to the
24 with the organization? The space 24 time that you started using that term,
25 between head injuries, the amount of 25 or were familiar with the term, second
Page 95 Page 97
1 time between head injuries, was that 1 impact syndrome.
2 something you as a trainer were 2 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Objection
3 concerned about? 3 to the form.
4 MR. MALLIN: Object to 4 BY MR. DEARMAN:
5 form. 5 Q. So let's go back to 1998.
6 THE WITNESS: I can't 6 Was that something that you, as a
7 recall. 7 trainer, were concerned with?
8 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to 8 A. I can't recall.
9 the form. 9 Q. '99?
10 BY MR. DEARMAN: 10 A. I can't recall.
11 Q. So you can't recall -- and 11 Q. 2000?
12 so I understand this, you can't recall 12 A. I can't recall.
13 yourself being concerned about the time 13 Q. '01?
14 between head injuries prior to the time 14 A. I can't recall.
15 that you started using the term second 15 Q. '02?
16 impact syndrome? 16 A. I can't recall.
17 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to 17 Q. '03?
18 form. 18 A. I can't recall.
19 BY MR. DEARMAN: 19 Q. '04?
20 Q. Is that a correct 20 A. I can't recall.
21 statement? Is that what you are 21 Q. '05?
22 saying? 22 A. I believe in about that
23 A. I got to be honest, you 23 range, '05, when I became head trainer,
24 got me confused here. So I'm going to 24 it was a concern for me.
25 ask you to please reword. 25 Q. And does that correlate

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1 with the time that you started -- that 1 medical knowledge that that physician,
2 you became familiar with that term, 2 and what we have, as the medical staff,
3 second impact syndrome? 3 provided to them. So for me to think
4 A. I can't recall when that 4 that the player is going out concussed
5 term came out. 5 and to be rehit again, that is not in
6 Q. So then it is possible 6 the back of my mind, because I truly
7 that before that 2005 time you wouldn't 7 believe that our physicians have
8 be concerned with the amount of time 8 cleared them to go back to play.
9 between one head injury and another 9 Now, you asked when did I
10 head injury as it relates to going back 10 hear about the second impact. I don't
11 onto the ice, you yourself, as a 11 recall.
12 trainer? 12 Q. Although that wasn't
13 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Objection 13 responsive, let me see if I can't
14 to the form. 14 clarify the question for you.
15 BY MR. DEARMAN: 15 MR. MALLIN: Just so the
16 Q. That is possible, correct? 16 record is clear, I disagree. Go
17 MR. MALLIN: Same 17 ahead. It is your deposition.
18 objection. 18 BY MR. DEARMAN:
19 THE WITNESS: No. 19 Q. The -- at some point in
20 BY MR. DEARMAN: 20 time you became familiar with the term,
21 Q. Well, you've told me you 21 second impact syndrome, correct?
22 -- when you say you don't recall, what 22 A. Yes.
23 do you mean by you don't recall? 23 Q. What is that?
24 A. You asked me -- 24 A. From what I believe, it is
25 MR. BAUMGARTEN: I'll 25 when a player or a person has sustained
Page 99 Page 101

1 object to the form of that 1 a head injury and in a relative period
2 question also. 2 of time they sustained another injury
3 MR. DEARMAN: Okay. Well, 3 on top of that injury.
4 he used the term, don't recall, 4 Q. Is your understanding that
5 so I'm trying to find out what 5 an individual who was cleared by a team
6 you mean by that. 6 physician after a first head injury
7 THE WITNESS: Okay. I 7 could go back out onto the ice, is that
8 believe when you asked the 8 your understanding? Just talking about
9 question, it was, when did I 9 neurological issues right now, so a
10 become concerned with a 10 player has a head injury, doctor clears
11 concussion and the second 11 him, he can go back out on the ice,
12 possibility of the other 12 correct?
13 concussion going on. 13 A. It is part of the process.
14 BY MR. DEARMAN: 14 Q. Okay. What is the rest of
15 Q. Correct. 15 the process as it relates to the
16 A. I've never -- one, I don't 16 neurological issue, issues?
17 clear a player to go back, and when the 17 A. The player has to be
18 player goes back it is cleared by a 18 symptom free.
19 physician, and at that time, it doesn't 19 Q. Okay. Is it your
20 matter what time frame; 1998, '99, 20 understanding of the second impact
21 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, to 21 syndrome that -- well, let me go back
22 present day, I don't make that decision 22 and ask you, what is the -- you've
23 for them to return to play. When they 23 explained what the second impact
24 are returned to play, they are cleared 24 syndrome is as far as you described it
25 by a physician, cleared by the best 25 is one head injury in proximity to

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1 another injury. What is the result of 1 discussions about a determination
2 the second impact syndrome, if you 2 relating to removal from play?
3 know? 3 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to
4 A. I'm not an expert in 4 the form.
5 concussions. 5 THE WITNESS: If you could
6 Q. Do you have any opinion, 6 just clarify that in terms of
7 as to -- as a trainer or as an athletic 7 removal from play.
8 trainer? 8 BY MR. DEARMAN:
9 A. I don't have an opinion. 9 Q. Since 1998, have you ever
10 Q. Is one of your 10 told a player that they had to get off
11 responsibilities as an athletic trainer 11 the ice and they could no longer skate
12 to communicate with players about their 12 because of an injury?
13 injuries? 13 MR. MALLIN: Well, you can
14 A. Yes. 14 respond to that question. Make
15 Q. And has that always been 15 sure you do not disclose any
16 part of your role as an athletic 16 personal medical information.
17 trainer? 17 THE WITNESS: Since 1998?
18 A. Since what time period? 18 BY MR. DEARMAN:
19 Q. Well, since you -- well, 19 Q. Uh-huh.
20 you were an assistant athletic trainer, 20 A. Yes.
21 was that part of your role? 21 Q. Okay. Is that -- is there
22 A. To some degree. 22 a specific date that you can recall
23 Q. Okay. When you became the 23 where you started to take that role on,
24 head athletic trainer, was that part of 24 or is that something that since 1998
25 your role? 25 might have been part of your role, you
Page 103 Page 105

1 A. Yes. 1 are just telling me that since then you
2 Q. Tell me what was different 2 know you have done it at least once?
3 between your role with communicating 3 A. Since 2005.
4 injuries to players as an assistant and 4 Q. And that is because you
5 as a head. 5 became the head trainer, as opposed to
6 A. As an assistant, it was 6 the assistant?
7 the responsibility of the head athletic 7 A. Yes.
8 trainer to really communicate. My job 8 Q. And so from 2005 forward,
9 was more at the rehabilitation end, and 9 you would have been communicating with
10 to support the head athletic trainer. 10 the player about a decision to remove
11 If a player who was rehabilitating with 11 them from play, correct?
12 me had a question, I would make sure 12 A. When we remove a player
13 that it was answered in black-and-white 13 from the game, it is not based on my
14 terms so that there was no gray area. 14 decision, it is based on the
15 As a head athletic trainer, it is my 15 physician's decision. My job as an
16 job, again, to make sure that that 16 athletic trainer is the first responder
17 player doesn't -- really depends on -- 17 on the ice, and if the player is
18 or doesn't depend on what injury, with 18 capable of leaving the ice it is my job
19 any type of injury or pathology going 19 to communicate with the physician why
20 on, they thoroughly understand what is 20 the player is there, exactly what my
21 going on. 21 evaluation was on the ice. The
22 Q. Does that include 22 physician would be the one that
23 discussions about return to play? 23 actually removes that player from the
24 A. Yes. 24 game. Would I be the one to help the
25 Q. Would that include 25 player from the ice, yes.

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1 Q. And has that been the 1 future with regard to this recurring
2 process since you started with the 2 knee injury?
3 organization? 3 MR. MALLIN: Object to
4 A. Yes. 4 form. Again caution you not to
5 Q. And notwithstanding the 5 disclose personal medical
6 fact that the physician makes that 6 information.
7 final determination, would you, whether 7 THE WITNESS: We, not just
8 it was at the time or sometime after 8 I, but we as a medical staff --
9 that, communicate with the player about 9 again, I'm not the expert on
10 their injury or injuries? 10 knees. We have a team
11 A. Yes. 11 orthopedic doctor, and we would
12 Q. Okay. Would you -- was 12 sit down with the player, and if
13 part of your role and responsibility to 13 we believed that we were putting
14 discuss with them the long-term picture 14 the player or the player could
15 with regard to whatever the injury is? 15 be put in harm by continuing to
16 A. Since 2005? 16 play, they should know the risk;
17 Q. Yes. 17 and that we, the organization,
18 A. Yes. 18 we the medical team, would never
19 Q. And what would be the 19 put a player in harm's way, put
20 purpose of talking to a player, again, 20 them at risk out to play NHL
21 not asking you any specific player, but 21 hockey.
22 what would be the reason or the need to 22 BY MR. DEARMAN:
23 discuss with them -- for example, they 23 Q. So you would want to
24 had a knee injury, maybe they've had 24 convey to them the risks of continuing
25 other knee injuries, and you are going 25 to play in light of the injury,
Page 107 Page 109

1 to discuss with them, you know, how 1 correct?
2 this is going to affect them in the 2 A. Yes.
3 future, is that something you would do? 3 Q. One of the reasons?
4 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to 4 A. Yes, one of the reasons.
5 the form. 5 Q. Now, is that done in
6 BY MR. DEARMAN: 6 writing? Is there a policy and a
7 Q. Let me ask the question a 7 procedure within the organization as to
8 different way. Can you recall ever 8 how that is done, and does it differ
9 speaking to a player, and I'm not 9 between what kind of injury it is?
10 asking you for a specific player, but a 10 MR. MALLIN: Object to
11 player who had multiple injuries to the 11 form.
12 same knee -- can you recall working 12 BY MR. DEARMAN:
13 with any players such as that? 13 Q. The first question is, is
14 A. Yes. 14 there a policy or procedure?
15 Q. Okay. Can you recall 15 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to
16 having any conversations with them 16 the form. Again, time frame is
17 about the future of their career as a 17 a little unclear.
18 result of the knee? 18 BY MR. DEARMAN:
19 A. Yes. 19 Q. Ever?
20 Q. Okay. That was one of 20 A. I don't recall.
21 your responsibilities, that was one of 21 Q. Okay. Do you recall
22 the duties that you took on? 22 yourself having a conversation with a
23 A. Yes. 23 player, without identifying the player,
24 Q. Why would you do that? 24 telling them that their future of
25 Why would you talk to them about the 25 playing or telling them what the risks

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1 are associated with a specific injury, 1 -- well, is it the same? No.
2 and putting that information into 2 Q. What is the difference?
3 writing and into their file, their 3 A. Keeping on the topic about
4 medical file? 4 your knees.
5 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay.
6 Q. And when would you do that 6 A. If a player has a large
7 versus when wouldn't you do that, or 7 osteochondral defect and knows that by
8 did you always do it? 8 continuing to play, it may speed up the
9 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to 9 arthritic changes in the knee, which
10 the form of that. 10 will almost guarantee them going to
11 BY MR. DEARMAN: 11 meet their maker with an artificial
12 Q. Did you always put that 12 knee, they should know about that, and
13 writing into their file? 13 --
14 A. Could you just clarify, 14 Q. So you would warn them of
15 that's -- 15 that risk?
16 Q. Let's go back a step. 16 A. Yes.
17 A. Please. 17 Q. Talking about the knee,
18 Q. In every instance that you 18 and I'm not going to try to say what
19 were involved with telling a player 19 you said with the chondral, although I
20 that they had a recurring injury which 20 just tried it I guess, is that
21 is going to -- which you were warning 21 something that would have been covered
22 them about as it related to their 22 in any of the literature that we talked
23 ability to continue to play in the NHL, 23 about earlier in all the years that you
24 would you create a writing relating to 24 received publications from NSCA or
25 that conversation? 25 NATA?
Page 111 Page 113

1 A. And -- 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And I asked, every time. 2 Q. And did you ever have
3 A. Okay. Again, since 2005? 3 conversations with players since 2005,
4 Q. Right. 4 separate and apart from the team
5 5 physician -- and I'm not asking you to
6 6 identify anybody, but did you yourself
7 7 ever have a conversation with a player,
8 8 hey, you should be aware of the
9 9 following risks, separate and apart
10 10 from a discussion with a team
11 11 physician?
12 12 A. Risk, any type of risk?
13 13 Q. Any type of risk.
14 14 A. Yes.
15 15 Q. Okay. Risk related to
16 Q. Now, you said stop 16 arthritis?
17 playing. Earlier we were talking about 17 A. Can't recall.
18 risks relating to continued injury. Is 18 Q. Risk related to repeated
19 that the same thing to you, or is that 19 head injury?
20 different? 20 A. Yes.
21 MR. MALLIN: Object to 21 Q. Risk related to long-term
22 form. 22 neurological injury?
23 BY MR. DEARMAN: 23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I think you understand it. 24 Q. I think we talked about
25 A. I understand. I believe 25 the arthritis. Why would you want to

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1 warn them of a risk of long-term 1 not being open with and sharing
2 neurological injury? 2 with myself or the medical staff
3 MR. MALLIN: Here again, 3 on symptoms that they are
4 do not disclose any personal 4 having, I need openness, and
5 medical information. 5 I'll be willing to share some of
6 BY MR. DEARMAN: 6 the information. Granted, as I
7 Q. No players. 7 said, I'm not an expert, and
8 MR. MALIN: Thank you. 8 science is always evolving, but
9 MR. DEARMAN: Although I'm 9 I do believe the player has the
10 not sure I agree with the 10 right to know what I know. But
11 objection, I'm just trying to 11 again, I have the right to know
12 streamline. 12 what they know, because it will
13 MR. BAUMGARTEN: I'll 13 best -- the information they
14 object to the form as well. 14 give us, myself included, and
15 MR. DEARMAN: Anybody 15 the medical staff, will help
16 else? 16 best to create the best medical
17 MR. MALLIN: Just two. 17 care that we can possibly give
18 MR. DEARMAN: All right. 18 them to get them back to normal.
19 BY MR. DEARMAN: 19 Possibly back to normal, there
20 Q. You want us to read the 20 is no guarantee.
21 question back to you? 21 BY MR. DEARMAN:
22 A. I believe it was why do I 22 Q. So one of the reasons you
23 object or -- about the risk. 23 would have a discussion with a player
24 Q. Let's read the question 24 about long-term neurological injury is
25 back. It is still subject to the 25 to -- correct me if I'm wrong, is to
Page 115 Page 117

1 objection, so we don't have to confuse 1 ensure that they understand the
2 you more. 2 severity of it so that they are candid
3 MR. MALLIN: Thank you. 3 with you regarding their symptoms; is
4 MR. DEARMAN: You're very 4 that correct?
5 welcome. 5 A. Correct.
6 --- 6 Q. That is one of the
7 (At this time the court 7 reasons. Are there other reasons?
8 reporter read back from the 8 Would one other reason be your concern
9 record as was requested.) 9 for the welfare of the player?
10 --- 10 A. I'm concerned for the
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 11 welfare of the player, yes.
12 When I meet with the players on 12 Q. That is another reason.
13 an individual basis, and if a 13 How about any other reasons, if you can
14 player sustained a head injury, 14 think of any?
15 first of all, they know, and I 15 A. No.
16 have always -- I'm not an 16 Q. Now, we've sort of limited
17 expert, and we have experts, and 17 this to 2005 forward, and that I
18 if they need more clarification 18 believe -- and you can correct me if
19 on long-term ramifications, we 19 I'm wrong -- that is when you became
20 have a great physician staff 20 the head trainer?
21 they should talk to. But I need 21 A. Correct.
22 a player to be open with me 22 Q. Prior to 2005, do you know
23 also, and again, it is coming 23 if the process that we've discussed
24 back to that second impact 24 about that you utilized was the same
25 syndrome, that if a player is 25 process of the then head trainer whose

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1 names escapes me? 1 talking about, again, the significant
2 MR. DAVIDSON: Jim. 2 others, because, you know, for the
3 MR. MALLIN: Object to 3 first phase of a head injury you have
4 form. 4 to worry about a subdural hematoma, and
5 BY MR. DEARMAN: 5 if that does arise at night they should
6 Q. If you know. 6 know -- they, the significant other,
7 A. I don't know. 7 should know how to handle it, but if
8 Q. As an assistant trainer, 8 symptoms are persisting at nighttime I
9 did you do any of these things? 9 need to know about it. So that is why
10 A. No. 10 we need openness on both fronts, from
11 Q. As an assistant trainer, 11 the player and from the medical staff.
12 did you observe the head trainer having 12 There is no gray area.
13 any of these conversations? 13 Q. The reasons that you have
14 A. No. 14 given me for warning -- for providing
15 Q. Do you have an assistant 15 the player or their families with those
16 trainer? 16 risks, including long-term neurological
17 A. I do. 17 injury, equally in your opinion apply
18 Q. Who is that? 18 prior to 2005, you just might not have
19 A. Sal Raffa, R-A-F-F-A, 19 been the person that would have had
20 first name Sal. 20 that conversation with the player or
21 Q. Has Sal observed you 21 the family, correct?
22 having any of these conversations with 22 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
23 players? 23 form.
24 A. I can't recall. 24 THE WITNESS: I couldn't
25 Q. Have you had any of these 25 answer that.
Page 119 Page 121

1 conversations -- and let's stick with 1 BY MR. DEARMAN:
2 the long-term neurological injuries -- 2 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask
3 with any players' families? 3 you this question. Do you think when
4 A. Yes. 4 you were an assistant athletic trainer,
5 Q. Why would you have the 5 that a player should be warned of the
6 conversation with the families? 6 risks associated with long-term
7 MR. MALLIN: Object to 7 neurological injury?
8 form, and again caution you not 8 A. I don't have an opinion.
9 to disclose any personal medical 9 Q. You don't have an opinion?
10 information. 10 A. No. I'm not the medical --
11 BY MR. DEARMAN: 11 I wasn't the head medical trainer back
12 Q. And if it is the same 12 then, and I don't wish to speak for the
13 reasons, that is fine. 13 medical trainer that was.
14 A. A player may enter the 14 Q. I'm not asking you to
15 practice facility, and when he is 15 speak for him. I'm asking you whether
16 around his comrades may not let on that 16 or not, as an assistant trainer with
17 they are being troubled by the lights, 17 the organization, did you think that a
18 or troubled by sounds or show 18 player had the right to be warned of
19 irritability, but at home these 19 the risks of long-term neurological
20 symptoms may manifest, and so I do stay 20 injury?
21 in touch with the significant other 21 MR. MALLIN: Objection.
22 when a player does have a -- or 22 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to
23 sustains any type of head injury, 23 the form. Also I think calls
24 because I can't be everywhere, so I 24 for a legal conclusion.
25 need their eyes, theirs ears. I'm 25 BY MR. DEARMAN:

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Page 122 Page 124

1 Q. You can answer the 1 THE WITNESS: If we had
2 question. So I'm asking you as an 2 the same medical knowledge as we
3 assistant, I'm not asking if you had 3 had today, I believe that the
4 the conversation. You said you had 4 risk should have been conveyed,
5 not. That was the head trainer's job. 5 yes.
6 I'm asking you whether you agree the 6 BY MR. DEARMAN:
7 same reasons that you do it post 2005 7 Q. Okay. Well, let me back
8 would have existed pre 2005. 8 up. We talked about knee and
9 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to 9 arthritis. Long-term neurological
10 the form. 10 injury, was that topic covered in any
11 THE WITNESS: I don't 11 of your NSCA or NATA publications or
12 believe -- let me take this 12 literature?
13 back. Just so I'm right, you 13 A. Yes.
14 are asking me do I believe back 14 Q. So you would have obtained
15 in 1998 the head medical trainer 15 information about long-term
16 should be giving the same 16 neurological injury in part from those
17 knowledge that I was providing 17 publications, correct?
18 today, or should be warning them 18 A. Yes.
19 -- 19 Q. Do you know whether the
20 BY MR. DEARMAN: 20 head trainer before you also received
21 Q. That is not the question. 21 those publications and that literature?
22 A. Okay. Restate your 22 A. I don't.
23 question. 23 Q. But you would agree with
24 Q. Let's go back. Let's talk 24 me that you did receive those while you
25 about 1998 or 1999, and let's talk 25 were an assistant athletic trainer,
Page 123 Page 125

1 about the knee, and let's talk about 1 correct?
2 the arthritis, and let's talk about the 2 A. Yes.
3 possibility and the risk of needing an 3 Q. And so if you had any
4 implant. Okay? 4 information relating to what you
5 So now I'm asking you 5 learned in those publications, you
6 about that. You wouldn't be the person 6 would have shared that with the head
7 who would tell the player or their 7 trainer at the time, correct?
8 family about that risk, correct? 8 A. Yes.
9 A. No. 9 Q. I know we are talking
10 Q. But do you agree with me 10 about athletic training. I know we are
11 that that risk back in 1998, prior to 11 talking about strength and
12 2005, should have been conveyed? 12 conditioning. Prior to the time that
13 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 13 you became the head of both groups --
14 form. 14 is that what you are now, currently,
15 THE WITNESS: If we had 15 the director of?
16 the same medical knowledge as we 16 A. I oversee it, yes.
17 have today. 17 Q. Okay. And with both of
18 BY MR. DEARMAN: 18 those athletic training -- with
19 Q. That is fine. If you 19 training and strength and conditioning,
20 believed that the risk existed, it 20 those are both things that go year
21 should have been conveyed even before 21 long, year round, in some form or
22 '05, you were not doing it then, but it 22 fashion?
23 should have been conveyed, correct? 23 A. Correct.
24 MR. MALLIN: Object to 24 Q. I think about strength and
25 form. 25 conditioning, I think about people

612.338.3376
Page 126 Page 128

1 lifting weights and plyometrics, 1 not even athletes, but people use
2 jumping onto boxes and things like 2 boxing as a way to keep in shape or get
3 that. Is that part of strength and 3 in shape or maintain a specific shape,
4 conditioning? 4 are you aware of that?
5 A. Yes. 5 MR. MALLIN: Object to
6 Q. Physical training? 6 form.
7 A. Yes. 7 THE WITNESS: Am I aware
8 Q. Is there or has there been 8 that it is used?
9 a policy or procedure written as to the 9 BY MR. DEARMAN:
10 types of training that is provided? 10 Q. Yes.
11 For instance, we are going to use 11 A. Yes.
12 plyometrics and we're going to jump on 12 Q. Okay. Do you utilize that
13 boxes, is that something that is 13 for anyone, or have you ever utilized
14 written, or is that something that is 14 that in the organization?
15 just instituted as you learn about it? 15 A. No.
16 MR. MALLIN: Object to 16 Q. Why not?
17 form. 17 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to
18 BY MR. DEARMAN: 18 the form.
19 Q. And that wasn't artful. 19 BY MR. DEARMAN:
20 That was not very artful. 20 Q. Any specific reason? I
21 I'm trying to figure out 21 mean, can you give me a reason why not?
22 whether or not -- like plyometrics, 22 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
23 when did you start instituting 23 form.
24 plyometrics with this organization, or 24 THE WITNESS: No reason.
25 when was it instituted? 25 BY MR. DEARMAN:
Page 127 Page 129

1 A. I don't know when 1 Q. Are you aware of any
2 plyometrics was instituted. 2 comparison between head injuries in
3 Q. Fair enough. Is running 3 boxing and head injuries for NHL'ers?
4 part of the training that is provided 4 A. No.
5 or is suggested or is recommended to 5 Q. So just to be clear, in
6 players? 6 your years, in all of your years, not
7 A. That depends. 7 limiting it to whether or not you were
8 Q. Okay. What does it depend 8 a trainer or you were associated with
9 on? 9 the Flyers' organization, you have
10 A. Hip pathology, knee 10 never seen any material that discusses
11 pathology. 11 the similarities between head injuries
12 Q. Okay. How about pull-ups 12 that boxers receive and head injuries
13 and pushups? 13 that NHL'ers receive?
14 A. Depends. 14 MR. MALLIN: Object to
15 Q. Okay. Depends on the 15 form.
16 individual? 16 BY MR. DEARMAN:
17 A. Yes, correct. 17 Q. I'm not asking if you
18 Q. And so these things are 18 agree with it, I'm asking if you have
19 geared to each individual -- 19 seen the discussion.
20 A. Correct. 20 A. I get it.
21 Q. -- for training? Are you 21 MR. MALLIN: Objection to
22 familiar with boxing that is utilized 22 the form.
23 in training athletes? And I'm not 23 THE WITNESS: I'm a
24 talking about boxers, I'm talking about 24 trainer for the NHL team. I
25 whether they are football players, or 25 don't care about boxing. I

612.338.3376
Page 130 Page 132

1 don't have enough time to read 1 this deposition?
2 the literature about boxing. 2 MR. DEARMAN: I am. This
3 BY MR. DEARMAN: 3 is number one.
4 Q. And that is a fair 4 BY MR. DEARMAN:
5 position. That is your position. I 5 Q. If you would just take a
6 get that. But I'm asking you whether 6 look at this document. It's dated
7 you are -- I'm not asking whether you 7 March 22nd, 1998. The title of the
8 agree with it. I'm not even asking if 8 document is Number of Concussions at
9 you have time to agree with it or 9 the NHL and the Search For Answers by
10 dispute it. I'm asking if you are 10 Joe Lapointe, and I believe it is three
11 aware of the comparison. 11 pages.
12 A. No. 12 I'm going to direct you to
13 Q. Do you know who Dr. Burke 13 the second page of the document, and
14 is? 14 about halfway down there is a subtitle
15 MR. MALLIN: You have a 15 which says, finding a resemblance to
16 first name? 16 boxing concussions.
17 BY MR. DEARMAN: 17 Do you see that?
18 Q. Charles Burke. Maybe you 18 A. Yes, I do.
19 sat on a work group or committee with 19 Q. And I would ask you to
20 him. 20 read the -- at least the two paragraphs
21 A. Chip Burke? 21 underneath that section. You can read
22 Q. Chip Burke. 22 it all, obviously, but my questions are
23 A. Thumbs up. Dr. Burke I am 23 going to be related to that.
24 aware of. 24 A. Okay.
25 Q. He is a? 25 Q. Do you see the quote by
Page 131 Page 133

1 A. He is an orthopedic 1 Dr. Burke there?
2 doctor. 2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Have you had discussions 3 Q. Starting with the direct
4 with him? 4 blow, and the direct blow to the head
5 A. Yes. 5 causes a rotational force, Burke said,
6 Q. Consulted with him? 6 referring to hockey and boxing. The
7 A. Yes. 7 helmet has nothing to do with anything.
8 Q. Do you value his opinion 8 The helmet is attached to the head, and
9 as a medical doctor? I'm not asking 9 it is going with the head. It is the
10 about his political opinions or 10 force applied to the head that causes
11 anything else, I'm just saying as a 11 the brain to bruise inside the skull.
12 medical doctor. 12 That is one of our theories.
13 A. As an orthopedic? 13 Obviously, we have not been able to
14 Q. Yes. 14 prove or disprove it at this point.
15 A. Yes. 15 MR. MALLIN: And the
16 MR. DEARMAN: I would like 16 questions is?
17 to mark this as Plaintiff's 17 BY MR. DEARMAN:
18 Exhibit No. 1. 18 Q. I'm going to read to you
19 --- 19 the first sentence. I just wanted to
20 (At this time a document 20 get that you are looking at that
21 was marked for identification as 21 paragraph and the one above it, which
22 Exhibit No. P-1.) 22 says, a few hockey concussions happen
23 --- 23 like this, he said, but most don't.
24 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Are you 24 His group is studying videotapes of
25 marking separate numbers for 25 every hockey concussion, he said, and

612.338.3376
Page 134 Page 136

1 is discovering that hockey concussions 1 you trained?
2 are more akin to boxing than to 2 A. Yes.
3 football. 3 Q. And when did you first
4 MR. MALLIN: Move to 4 meet Carl Lindros, generally?
5 strike. 5 A. I can't recall.
6 BY MR. DEARMAN: 6 Q. Before or after 1998?
7 Q. Do you have any reason to 7 A. Afterwards.
8 dispute Dr. -- do you have any reason 8 Q. Before or after 2005?
9 to dispute that conclusion that hockey 9 A. Before.
10 concussions are more akin to boxing 10 Q. Before or after 2000?
11 than to football? 11 Just trying to get a -- somewhere in
12 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to 12 there?
13 the form. 13 A. I believe it was before
14 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 14 2000, because he was gone before --
15 form, no foundation. 15 around 2000, yeah.
16 MR. BAUMGARTEN: And 16 Q. Do you see -- after it
17 foundation. 17 says, compounding effects of repeated
18 THE WITNESS: I'm not an 18 trauma, in this article, will you read
19 expert. You would have to -- I 19 the first two paragraphs after that,
20 don't have an opinion. You 20 and then I will ask you some questions?
21 would have to ask Dr. Burke. I 21 Again, you can read it all, but I'm
22 don't. 22 going to limit my questions to that.
23 BY MR. DEARMAN: 23 A. Okay.
24 Q. And do you have any 24 Q. Okay. The first
25 opinion, then, as to whether or not 25 paragraph, the article indicates that,
Page 135 Page 137

1 there is a resemblance to whether or 1 and I'm just going to read you the
2 not head injuries in the NHL have a 2 paragraph: Carl Lindros can talk of
3 resemblance to head injuries in boxing? 3 the cumulative, exponential effects of
4 MR. MALLIN: Object to 4 multiple concussions that occur too
5 form. 5 close in time to each other. He knows
6 THE WITNESS: I don't. 6 now of neurons and of parts of the
7 BY MR. DEARMAN: 7 brain reconnecting, and of how it might
8 Q. Do you know who Carl 8 be risky to deplete the brain's supply
9 Lindros is? 9 of excess neurons at a young age,
10 A. Yes. 10 because some will gradually die out
11 Q. If you move further down 11 with age, and that means that former
12 in Exhibit No. 1, there is another 12 athletes who had concussions in their
13 subtitle that says, compounding effects 13 youth might experience accelerated,
14 of repeated trauma. 14 negative effects when they turn 50 and
15 A. I see it, yeah. 15 older. Do you see that?
16 Q. This article is dated 16 MR. MALLIN: Move to
17 March 22nd, 1998, correct? It is the 17 strike. Object to the form.
18 first page above the title. March 18 BY MR. DEARMAN:
19 22nd, do you not see it? 19 Q. Do you see that paragraph?
20 A. Oh, I see it. 20 MR. MALLIN: Same
21 Q. So how do you know Carl 21 objections.
22 Lindros? 22 THE WITNESS: I do.
23 A. He was the father of Eric 23 BY MR. DEARMAN:
24 Lindros. 24 Q. Do you know where Mr.
25 Q. And was Eric a player that 25 Lindros obtained that information?

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Page 138 Page 140

1 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 1 Q. '01?
2 form. 2 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
3 THE WITNESS: I don't. 3 form.
4 BY MR. DEARMAN: 4 THE WITNESS: No.
5 Q. Okay. Did you have that 5 BY MR. DEARMAN:
6 same information? 6 Q. '02?
7 A. I did not. 7 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
8 Q. And you know that as you 8 form.
9 sit here today? 9 THE WITNESS: No.
10 A. Yes. 10 BY MR. DEARMAN:
11 Q. Why? 11 Q. '03?
12 A. I never read this before. 12 MR. MALLIN: Object to
13 Q. Okay. Maybe I'm not being 13 form.
14 -- maybe I'm not being clear. I'm 14 THE WITNESS: No.
15 asking you, back in 1998, when Mr. 15 BY MR. DEARMAN:
16 Lindros indicated that former athletes 16 Q. '04?
17 who had concussions in their youth 17 MR. MALLIN: Object to
18 might experience accelerated negative 18 form.
19 effects when they turned 50 and older, 19 THE WITNESS: No.
20 did you know that in 1998? 20 BY MR. DEARMAN:
21 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 21 Q. '05?
22 form, move to strike. 22 MR. MALLIN: Object to
23 THE WITNESS: I can't 23 form.
24 recall. 24 THE WITNESS: No.
Page 139 Page 141

1 Q. Okay. So you don't know 1 Q. '06?
2 one way or the other? 2 MR. MALLIN: Object to
3 A. Correct. 3 form.
4 Q. Another statement that Mr. 4 THE WITNESS: No.
5 Lindros made in this article: Once the 5 BY MR. DEARMAN:
6 brain is ripped apart, it is very easy 6 Q. '07?
7 to dramatically rip it apart with a 7 MR. MALLIN: Object to
8 second concussion. Is that something 8 form.
9 you knew in ]1998? 9 THE WITNESS: No.
10 MR. MALLIN: Move to 10 BY MR. DEARMAN:
11 strike, object to the form. 11 Q. '08?
12 THE WITNESS: I can't 12 MR. MALLIN: Object to
13 recall. 13 form.
15 Q. Can you recall whether you 15 BY MR. DEARMAN:
16 knew either of these things in 1999? 16 Q. '09?
17 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 17 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
18 form. 18 form. You have to give me an
19 THE WITNESS: No. 19 opportunity to make my
20 BY MR. DEARMAN: 20 objection.
21 Q. 2000? 21 MR. DEARMAN: I'll slow
22 A. No. 22 down.
23 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 23 MR. MALLIN: Thank you.
24 form. 24 MR. DEARMAN: You're very
25 BY MR. DEARMAN: 25 welcome.

612.338.3376
Page 142 Page 144

1 BY MR. DEARMAN: 1 form.
2 Q. '09? 2 THE WITNESS: I don't
3 MR. MALLIN: Object to 3 know.
5 THE WITNESS: No. 5 Q. 2011?
7 Q. 2010? 7 form.
8 MR. MALLIN: Object to 8 THE WITNESS: Don't know.
10 THE WITNESS: No. 10 Q. How about today?
12 Q. 2011? 12 form.
13 MR. MALLIN: Object to 13 THE WITNESS: I don't
14 form. 14 know. I don't know because --
15 THE WITNESS: No. 15 well, I don't know. That is
16 BY MR. DEARMAN: 16 where I'm going to leave it.
17 Q. 2012? 17 BY MR. DEARMAN:
18 MR. MALLIN: Object to 18 Q. Have you told any players
19 form. 19 that you've had contact with that
20 THE WITNESS: No. 20 multiple concussions might result in
21 BY MR. DEARMAN: 21 negative effects as they grow old?
22 Q. Now, you are saying you 22 MR. MALLIN: Again, in
23 don't know that. It is not that you 23 responding to that question, do
24 don't recall, you just don't know it, 24 not disclose any personal
25 right? 25 medical information.
Page 143 Page 145

1 A. I guess, no, I'm saying 1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 that -- 2 BY MR. DEARMAN:
3 Q. Again, I know you are not 3 Q. You have had that
4 a doctor. 4 conversation?
5 A. I'm not a doctor and I'm 5 A. Yes.
6 not an expert. 6 Q. More than ten times?
7 Q. And I'm not asking you for 7 A. No.
8 an expert opinion. I'm asking what you 8 Q. More than five times?
9 knew. 9 A. I can't recall if it has
10 A. You are asking if I'm 10 been five.
11 agreeing with Carl Lindros, who is 11 Q. And as you sit here -- and
12 neither, either. 12 I'm not asking you, because your
13 Q. I'm not asking you whether 13 counsel has objected, you recall the
14 you agree with him. I'm asking you 14 players that you had that conversation
15 whether you had that information that 15 with?
16 he stated. And I've limited it to 16 A. Yes.
17 those -- 17 Q. And do you know when you
18 MR. BAUMGARTEN: I'll 18 had that conversation?
19 object to the form of the 19 A. I can't recall.
20 question. It is argumentative. 20 Q. With any of them?
21 THE WITNESS: I don't 21 A. The actual date, no.
22 recall. 22 Q. Well, if you think to
23 BY MR. DEARMAN: 23 yourself the five players, and I'm not
24 Q. You don't recall, 2010? 24 asking you for their names, can you
25 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 25 tell me when those five players --

612.338.3376
Page 146 Page 148

1 assuming they are not in the league any 1 injury in and of itself is a
2 longer, is that a fair assumption? 2 medical statement that would be
3 A. No. 3 protected?
4 Q. Okay. Of the players that 4 MR. MALLIN: It may or may
5 you had that conversation with, how 5 not be, depending upon the
6 many are in the league and how many 6 question you ask the witness.
7 aren't, currently? 7 I'll respond to each one as I
8 MR. MALLIN: You know, why 8 see fit.
9 don't you repeat that question 9 Ask your questions of the
10 for me, please. 10 witness, I'll object where I
11 --- 11 feel it is appropriate.
12 (At this time the court 12 MR. DEARMAN: Okay.
13 reporter read back from the 13 BY MR. DEARMAN:
14 record as was requested.) 14 Q. Have you had a
15 --- 15 conversation with any of these
16 MR. MALLIN: * I'm going 16 players -- I thought we established
17 to instruct you not to answer 17 this -- whereby you told them that
18 that question. I mean it's -- 18 repeated concussions can result in
19 potentially it is a 19 long-term neurological injury?
20 cat-and-mouse game where you are 20 A. Yes.
21 attempting to connect dots 21 Q. Okay. That is the
22 whereby you might be able to 22 question. Now I'm asking you with
23 learn the name of a particular 23 regards to that, who did you tell that
24 player or players as a result of 24 to?
25 the time he may have spent with 25 MR. MALLIN: * I'm
Page 147 Page 149

1 the Flyers as compared to time 1 instructing him not to answer.
2 with another club today. So I 2 MR. DEARMAN: The same
3 am not going to allow him to 3 basis you previously gave?
4 answer that question. 4 MR. MALLIN: That is
5 MR. DEARMAN: Just so the 5 personal medical information we
6 record is clear, you are not 6 will not disclose, and he will
7 going to let him the tell me, of 7 not testify about unless you
8 the players that he knows he had 8 have a release.
9 the conversation with who are no 9 BY MR. DEARMAN:
10 longer in the league, and the 10 Q. Carl Lindros is Eric and
11 question is going to be what 11 Brett Lindros' father, correct?
12 year did they leave the league? 12 A. Yes.
13 MR. MALLIN: That's 13 Q. And Carl Lindros made this
14 correct. I believe from that 14 statement in the public, correct?
15 information one could reasonably 15 MR. MALLIN: Objection to
16 glean who those players may have 16 the form.
17 been, and as a result of which 17 BY MR. DEARMAN:
18 you are asking him to disclose 18 Q. That we just read in this
19 private medical information, so 19 article?
20 I'm going to instruct him not to 20 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
21 answer. 21 form.
22 MR. DEARMAN: And you 22 THE WITNESS: I wasn't --
23 believe a conversation that he 23 it was written. I don't know if
24 would have had with a player 24 it was to the public.
25 about long-term neurological 25 BY MR. DEARMAN:

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Page 150 Page 152

1 1 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to
2 2 form.
3 3 BY MR. DEARMAN:
4 4 Q. Do you see that statement?
5 5 MR. MALLIN: Move to
6 6 strike, object to form.
7 7 BY MR. DEARMAN:
8 8 Q. Do you see that?
9 9 A. Yes.
10 10 Q. Were you aware back in '98
11 11 that the Lindroses were saying that it
12 12 is time to understand that we have a
13 13 problem, we just don't want anyone to
14 14 go through that again?
15 15 MR. MALLIN: * Well, in
16 16 responding to that question you
17 17 cannot disclose any
18 18 communications you may have had
19 19 with that family or this
20 20 particular player. Those
21 21 communications are part of
22 22 personal medical information, so
23 23 I instruct you not to answer.
24 24 MR. DEARMAN: Is it your
25 BY MR. DEARMAN: 25 position that any conversations
Page 151 Page 153

1 Q. Which of the Lindros 1 that he had when he wasn't with
2 brothers were you training or were 2 a physician, that he had
3 playing for your organization? 3 specifically with a player,
4 A. Eric. 4 would also be protected?
5 Q. Eric is no longer in the 5 MR. MALLIN: May or may
6 league, correct? 6 not be. Again, ask your
7 A. Correct. 7 questions. I'll respond to each
8 8 and every one of them as I see
9 9 fit. I'm not here to give you
10 10 guidance on how to take this
11 11 deposition.
12 12 MR. DEARMAN: I don't want
13 13 your guidance.
14 14 MR. MALLIN: Good.
16 Q. If you drop down in that 16 Q. Here is what I do want.
17 same article to the third paragraph 17 Any conversations -- I think you
18 from the end where it said: Eric, 18 indicated earlier that you had
19 fighting back tears when discussing his 19 conversations, apart from a team
20 younger brother said, it is time to 20 physician, with a player about
21 understand that we have a problem, we 21 long-term neurological injuries, and
22 just don't want anyone to go through 22 I'm just limiting it to those.
23 this again. 23 MR. MALLIN: Without
24 MR. MALLIN: What is the 24 identifying a particular player,
25 question? 25 you can answer that question.

612.338.3376
Page 154 Page 156

1 MR. DEARMAN: He already 1 Q. In what context?
2 answered it. 2 A. Maybe with somebody who
3 BY MR. DEARMAN: 3 has sustained a blow to the head.
4 4 Q. I assume, based on the
5 5 fact you said you were not familiar
6 6 with it, it is not a term you use?
7 7 A. No.
8 8 Q. Have you heard it used at
9 9 any of the hockey games that you've
10 10 attended?
11 11 A. No.
12 12 Q. Have you heard any of the
13 13 people that you work with at the
14 14 organization, the Flyers' organization,
15 15 use that term?
16 16 A. No.
17 17 Q. Do you recall where you've
18 18 seen that term or where you came to
19 19 hear it?
20 20 A. No, I can't recall.
21 21 Q. How about pugilista
22 22 dementia?
23 23 A. No.
24 24 Q. All right. I'm going to
25 25 show you a document now which we are
Page 155 Page 157

1 MR. MALLIN: Good time for 1 going to mark as Exhibit No. 2.
2 lunch? 2 ---
3 MR. DEARMAN: It is 11:52. 3 (At this time a document
4 You want to go off the record 4 was marked for identification as
5 for a second. 5 Exhibit No. P-2.)
6 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 6 ---
7 11:54 a.m. We are off the 7 BY MR. DEARMAN:
8 record. 8 Q. Take a look at the
9 --- 9 document. You notice on the first page
10 (At this time a short 10 it is dated September 1999, it looks
11 break was taken.) 11 like?
12 --- 12 A. Yes.
13 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 13 Q. Okay. I had previously
14 12:51 p.m. We are back on the 14 asked you earlier, and I'll give you an
15 record. 15 opportunity to review the document in a
16 BY MR. DEARMAN: 16 minute, but I've asked you if when you
17 Q. Sir, have a good lunch? 17 thought you had heard the term second
18 A. Yes, and you? 18 impact syndrome, or when you first
19 Q. Yeah, no complaints. 19 heard it, and I'm not sure if you can
20 Are you familiar with the 20 exactly tell me when it was. Since I
21 term, punch drunk? 21 asked you last, do you have any better
22 A. No. 22 recollection?
23 Q. Okay. Have you heard it 23 A. I don't.
24 before? 24 Q. How about the term
25 A. Yes. 25 postconcussion syndrome, are you

612.338.3376
Page 158 Page 160

1 familiar with that? 1 Q. And I think you did not
2 A. Yes. 2 recall, correct?
3 Q. Okay. Do you recall when 3 A. Yes.
4 you first heard that term? 4 Q. Okay. All right. If you
5 A. I don't recall. 5 go ahead, and you can look at the
6 Q. Do you know whether or not 6 document in total, I'm going to ask you
7 postconcussion syndrome was something 7 questions about some of the things on
8 that would have been discussed back 8 page three, which happen to --
9 when you started with the organization? 9 apparently they are highlighted, but
10 A. I can't recall. 10 the original is that way too that you
11 Q. Okay. And I think when I 11 have. I think it is, yeah. Get as
12 asked you about second impact syndrome, 12 familiar as you want with it, and let
13 if you recalled if it was a term that 13 me know when you are ready.
14 was utilized when you started with the 14 So, if I direct your
15 organization, I think you also said you 15 attention to the second impact
16 couldn't recall, correct? 16 syndrome, that paragraph, if you read
17 A. Correct. 17 through it you'll see that it discusses
18 Q. Can you recall -- can you 18 the syndrome was first described in
19 recall when you would have first 19 1973. Do you see that?
20 discussed the fact that -- and 20 A. Yes.
21 actually, I think just to make sure -- 21 Q. This document is dated
22 I might have asked this question 22 1999. Does this refresh your
23 already, do you recall when you started 23 recollection at least that in 1999 this
24 discussing multiple concussions as it 24 term was being discussed?
25 relates to long-term neurological 25 A. It does not.
Page 159 Page 161

1 injuries? 1 Q. Okay. If we drop down to
2 MR. MALLIN: As compared 2 multiple concussions, the next
3 to a single concussion, you are 3 paragraph, if you read the second
4 talking multiple concussions? 4 sentence, it says: There is evidence
5 BY MR. DEARMAN: 5 that repeated concussions can result in
6 Q. Repetitive concussions as 6 cumulative neurological damage, even
7 it relates to long-term neurological 7 when the injuries are separated my
8 injury, and I might have asked the 8 months or years. Do you see that?
9 question. I think I did, I just don't 9 A. Yes.
10 recall -- when you would have first -- 10 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
11 when you would have first started 11 form, but go ahead.
12 having discussions about that? 12 BY MR. DEARMAN:
13 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to 13 Q. Now, again, this document
14 the form. 14 is 1999, and in fact, the footnotes,
15 THE WITNESS: I don't 15 I'll represent to you, are from 1997
16 recall the actual date. 16 and 1991 referencing that same point.
17 BY MR. DEARMAN: 17 Does that refresh your
18 Q. Okay. Do you recall 18 recollection that the discussion about
19 whether it was before 2005? 19 multiple concussions and long-term
20 MR. BAUMGARTEN: You did 20 neurological injury were being
21 cover this. 21 discussed at that time?
22 MR. DEARMAN: I think I 22 MR. MALLIN: Object to
23 did, right? 23 form.
24 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Yeah. 24 THE WITNESS: I can't
25 BY MR. DEARMAN: 25 recall.

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1 BY MR. DEARMAN: 1 first started using that terms. If you
2 Q. And this doesn't refresh 2 take a look in the first paragraph,
3 your recollection? 3 there are one, two, three, four, five,
4 A. No, it doesn't. 4 six, seven subsections. Do you see
5 Q. Okay. I'm going to show 5 that, seven items?
6 you another document, which is marked 6 A. Yes.
7 as Exhibit-3. 7 Q. Number six indicates a
8 --- 8 heightened awareness among clinicians
9 (At this time a document 9 of the dangers involved in returning an
10 was marked for identification as 10 athlete to competition too early, and
11 Exhibit No. P-3.) 11 seven is the athlete's awareness of the
12 --- 12 risks associated with concussion. Do
13 BY MR. DEARMAN: 13 you see that?
14 Q. Please take your time to 14 A. Yes.
15 review that. 15 Q. Does it refresh your
16 A. Okay. 16 recollection then that back in 2004,
17 Q. This is from NATA, one of 17 there was a discussion about returning
18 the associations that you belong to, 18 athletes too early after a concussion?
19 correct? 19 MR. MALLIN: Does -- did
20 A. Correct. 20 this particular paragraph?
21 Q. One of the associations 21 MR. DEARMAN: Yeah.
22 you belonged to in 2004, correct? 22 BY MR. DEARMAN:
23 A. Yes. 23 Q. I'm asking you if that,
24 Q. Entitled National Athletic 24 number six.
25 Trainers' Association Position 25 MR. MALLIN: If he read it
Page 163 Page 165

1 Statement: Management of Sport-Related 1 in 2004, or are you talking
2 Concussion, correct? 2 about today?
3 A. Yes. 3 MR. DEARMAN: I'm asking
4 Q. Would this topic have been 4 him if this refreshes his
5 relevant to you to review at the time 5 recollection that back in '04 he
6 you would have received this? 6 was reading about specifically
7 A. I can't recall if I did 7 second impact syndrome and the
8 receive it or not, so. 8 heightened awareness among
9 Q. If you did receive it, 9 clinicians of the dangers
10 were these the types of NATA materials 10 involved in returning an athlete
11 that you received? 11 to competition too early.
12 A. One of the types, yes. 12 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to
13 Q. Okay. If you did receive 13 the form.
14 it, and it said management of 14 BY MR. DEARMAN:
15 sport-related concussion back in 2004, 15 Q. You can answer it, if you
16 would that have been relevant to you in 16 recall.
17 your job and what you do? 17 A. I don't recall.
18 A. Yes. 18 Q. Certainly, if you would
19 Q. And you would have read 19 have reviewed this in 2004, this would
20 it, correct? 20 have been something relevant to what
21 A. Yes. 21 you do, correct?
22 Q. We had talked earlier 22 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Asked and
23 about second impact syndrome prior to 23 answered.
24 the break, and then just recently, and 24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?
25 I asked you if you recalled when you 25 BY MR. DEARMAN:

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Page 166 Page 168

1 Q. This would have been 1 first sentence of that paragraph, the
2 relevant to your job, correct? 2 decrease was attributed to a variety of
3 A. Yes. 3 factors including, and there are seven
4 Q. And it would have been 4 things there.
5 something that you would have shared 5 All I'm asking is if any
6 with others, other clinicians and 6 of those things were relevant to any of
7 others at your job within the 7 your players or any risks that your
8 organization, correct? 8 players faced, you would have conveyed
9 MR. MALLIN: Object to 9 that information to them if you were
10 form. 10 the head athletic trainer?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to
12 BY MR. DEARMAN: 12 the form, and foundation.
13 Q. Okay. And who would those 13 BY MR. DEARMAN:
14 -- I mean, typically, who would you 14 Q. Can you answer the
15 have shared this type of information 15 question?
16 with? 16 A. With any information I'd
17 A. In what time frame? 17 receive, I would have said there may be
18 Q. 2004. 18 a possibility of a risk. You can't
19 A. Again, not being the head 19 base -- you can't base one study as
20 athletic trainer for the team, I would 20 fact.
21 have passed it on to -- if I did review 21 Q. And so how do you make the
22 this, to the head athletic trainer and 22 determination -- let's talk about
23 to our team physician. 23 concussions. How do you make the
24 Q. And you would have 24 determination as to what you are going
25 expected that any risks associated with 25 to convey, even in 2005, when you are
Page 167 Page 169

1 these issues would have been conveyed 1 the head trainer, how do you determine
2 to players, if necessary, correct? 2 what you are going to convey to a
3 MR. MALLIN: Object to 3 player relating to a risk?
4 form. 4 A. I defer to people who are
5 THE WITNESS: Again, I 5 much more intelligent and experts in
6 can't answer that, because I 6 that area, be it concussion or
7 wasn't the head athletic 7 orthopedics or cardiology, and that is
8 trainer. 8 physicians, and I'm not a physician and
9 BY MR. DEARMAN: 9 I'm not an expert.
10 Q. If you were the head 10 Q. So, if, for example, you
11 athletic trainer in '04, you would have 11 read a publication such as this one and
12 conveyed this information certainly to 12 it indicated to you that there -- with
13 any player who it was applicable to, 13 repetitive head injury, there may be an
14 correct? 14 increased likelihood of long-term
15 MR. BAUMGARTEN: I'm 15 neurological injury, that would be
16 sorry, what is the information? 16 something that you would convey to them
17 BY MR. DEARMAN: 17 as a possible risk?
18 Q. The information is that 18 MR. MALLIN: Object to
19 there is a heightened awareness among 19 form.
20 clinicians of the dangers involved in 20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 returning an athlete to competition too 21 BY MR. DEARMAN:
22 early, and that an athlete's awareness 22 Q. And if you drop down,
23 of the risks associated with a 23 actually, in that next paragraph --
24 concussion, as it relates to the 24 sorry, I should have told you to keep
25 decrease of concussions, which is the 25 your glasses on.

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1 A. That's all right. 1 form.
2 Q. That paragraph starts 2 THE WITNESS: Repeat that.
3 with, research in the area of sports 3 BY MR. DEARMAN:
4 re-rated concussion has provided the 4 Q. Yeah. Would the fact that
5 athletic training and medical 5 this publication from the association
6 professions with valuable new knowledge 6 you belong to indicates -- the fact
7 in recent years. You were part of the 7 that it is indicating that recurrent
8 athletic training survey at that time, 8 concussions to several high-profile
9 right? 9 athletes, some of who were forced into
10 A. Yes. 10 retirement as a result, my question is,
11 Q. And it goes on to say that 11 is that recurrent concussions caused
12 certified athletic trainers who, on 12 several high-profile athletes to
13 average, care for seven concussive 13 retire, my question is, is that
14 injuries per year, have been forced to 14 information that would be relevant to
15 rethink how they manage sports-related 15 you as a trainer of a team of
16 concussions. Again, this is in 2004. 16 professional athletes?
17 The next sentence says: 17 MR. MALLIN: Object to
18 Recurrent concussions to several 18 form.
19 high-profile athletes, some of who were 19 THE WITNESS: I don't know
20 forced into retirement as a result, 20 who wrote this, other than the
21 have increased awareness among sports 21 people who were cited up there.
22 medicine personnel and the general 22 I don't know who they are, and
23 public. Bridging the gap between 23 what qualifications they have,
24 research and clinical practice is the 24 and I see that there is one
25 key to reducing the incidence and 25 physician, a few Ph.D.'s, but --
Page 171 Page 173

1 severity of sport-related concussions 1 and to form an opinion, I don't
2 and improving return-to-play decisions. 2 have one. To gather an opinion,
3 Do you see that? 3 I would really need to know more
4 A. Yes. 4 of why those athletes, if they
5 Q. The fact that several -- 5 were athletes, high-profile
6 the fact that this publication from the 6 athletes, what type of injury
7 National Athletic Trainers' Association 7 they sustained, and again, I
8 acknowledges in 2004 that recurrent 8 would have to defer to people
9 concussions to several high-profile 9 much more knowledgeable in it
10 athletes, some of who were forced into 10 than I am. That is our
11 retirement as a result, would have been 11 physicians.
12 something that was certainly relevant 12 BY MR. DEARMAN:
13 to you, correct? 13 Q. I understand that, but
14 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 14 you've indicated that you have had
15 form. 15 conversations -- without telling me
16 BY MR. DEARMAN: 16 when, and without telling me with who,
17 Q. And I can ask the question 17 you've had conversations about
18 another way, would the fact that this 18 repetitive head injury and long-term
19 article indicates that recurrent 19 neurological injury, and what I'm
20 concussions have forced athletes to 20 asking you is, let's just assume
21 retire been something that was relevant 21 hypothetically you read this on a
22 to you? 22 Monday, and you are reading this
23 MR. BAUMGARTEN: 23 article, and then on Tuesday you get to
24 Objection, lack of foundation. 24 work and one of the players who has
25 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 25 been on the team for a few years and

612.338.3376
Page 174 Page 176

1 has had several head injuries, and you 1 concussions. Don't you think you are
2 are having a conversation with him, and 2 going to tell him that there is some
3 he has had several concussions, and he 3 research going on about this and that
4 has done all the return-to-play 4 there are risks?
5 protocols and he has done all those 5 MR. MALLIN: Object to
6 things, he is on his third or fourth 6 form.
7 head injury, you don't think it would 7 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to
8 be relevant to that player to know that 8 form.
9 there is research discussing the fact 9 THE WITNESS: In 2004 my
10 that recurrent concussions have related 10 job was to support the head
11 in the necessity of athletes to retire? 11 athletic trainer.
12 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Whenever 12 BY MR. DEARMAN:
13 there is a question which the 13 Q. Okay. And so if the -- so
14 questioner uses the word, 14 because you are not the head athletic
15 hypothetically, it is by 15 trainer, you are not going to convey
16 definition a hypothetical 16 this information to the player, is that
17 question. 17 what you are telling me?
18 MR. DEARMAN: Does that 18 MR. MALLIN: Object to
19 fit into Judge Nelson's 19 form.
20 objections to the form? Because 20 BY MR. DEARMAN:
21 if it doesn't, save it, please. 21 Q. I just want to make sure
22 I understand you don't like the 22 we are being clear and I understand, I
23 question. 23 know you were not the head athletic
24 MR. MALLIN: I just object 24 trainer. I know your duty was not to
25 to the form. 25 directly converse with a player. If
Page 175 Page 177

1 MR. DEARMAN: Got it. 1 you were the head athletic trainer, if
2 BY MR. DEARMAN: 2 you were the head athletic trainer,
3 Q. They don't like the 3 this would be information you would
4 question, so I'm asking you, here you 4 think would be relevant to that player
5 go, you are talking to a player who has 5 and his family, right?
6 had recurrent concussions. You don't 6 MR. MALLIN: Object.
7 think that this is relevant to him, to 7 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to
8 know that you read this in a 8 form.
9 publication, notwithstanding the fact 9 BY MR. DEARMAN:
10 that you don't know the people who 10 Q. You can answer.
11 wrote it? 11 A. Again, this is a
12 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 12 hypothetical question?
13 form. 13 Q. Hypothetical question.
14 THE WITNESS: What years 14 A. If knew this knowledge and
15 are we talking? 15 if I was the head athletic trainer, I
16 BY MR. DEARMAN: 16 would say that, again, based on a study
17 Q. Well, I'm suggesting that 17 that I read there may be a possibility.
18 you are reading this in 2004, the date 18 Q. Okay. Do you recall
19 of it. I know you've had the 19 saying that in 2004 to anybody?
20 conversation, but you couldn't tell me 20 A. I can't recall.
21 when. So now I'm saying, well, assume 21 Q. How about in 2005? You
22 2004, and assume that you read this, 22 already read this, you are now the head
23 and then assume the next day you get to 23 athletic trainer. Same thing, you
24 work and you have a conversation with a 24 would have told them what you just
25 player who fits this, recurrent 25 testified to?

612.338.3376
Page 178 Page 180

1 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to 1 on local radio or TV or read it
2 form. 2 in the paper, and want a little
3 BY MR. DEARMAN: 3 bit more clarification on
4 Q. You are the head athletic 4 things. Again, not being the
5 trainer now. 5 expert, I would let them know
6 A. If I read this article and 6 what I have found out, that
7 somebody asked about the long-term 7 there are -- there may be a
8 risk, again, I would say I have read 8 possibility, but if they need
9 research that may -- there may be a 9 further clarification, speak
10 possibility of long-term risk. 10 with a physician.
11 Q. Okay. So a player has to 11 BY MR. DEARMAN:
12 ask you, Mr. McCrossin, what are the 12 Q. Okay. You previously
13 long-term risks of recurrent 13 testified that you had a conversation
14 concussions, in order for you to 14 with unknown players at an unknown time
15 provide this information? 15 about recurrent head injury and
16 MR. MALLIN: Object to 16 long-term neurological injury.
17 form. 17 My question is, does this
18 THE WITNESS: No. 18 article refresh your recollection that
19 BY MR. DEARMAN: 19 you might have been having this
20 Q. Okay. You would have 20 conversation in '04, '05?
21 volunteered -- 21 A. It does not.
22 MR. MALLIN: Give me an 22 Q. Okay. Same exhibit,
23 opportunity to do what I need to 23 number three, and this one, by the way,
24 do. 24 has a Bates number. I don't know if
25 BY MR. DEARMAN: 25 the other one does, just for the
Page 179 Page 181

1 Q. You would have volunteered 1 record, 33843 to 33860.
2 it as a risk, correct? 2 MR. MALLIN: Jim, the
3 MR. MALLIN: Object to 3 Bates numbers are what appear on
4 form. 4 the bottom right-hand corner.
5 BY MR. DEARMAN: 5 They make it easier to identify
6 Q. Unless -- well, go ahead 6 a particular page.
7 and answer that one. 7 THE WITNESS: I see. What
8 A. No. 8 page are we at?
9 Q. You would have volunteered 9 BY MR. DEARMAN:
10 it as a risk, as a potential risk, 10 Q. One second. Did you ever
11 correct? 11 use the term ding or bell rung as a
12 MR. MALLIN: Object to 12 trainer?
13 form. 13 A. I can't recall.
14 THE WITNESS: In a 14 Q. Can you recall whether
15 conversation that I have with a 15 anyone in the organization uses that
16 player, if we, the medical 16 term to describe a concussion?
17 staff, the medical team, 17 A. I can't.
18 physicians included, thought 18 Q. Or head injury?
19 this player was at risk I would 19 A. I really can't recall.
20 have a conversation with them. 20 Q. Do you know whether that
21 They wouldn't have to strike it 21 is a -- strike that.
22 up with me. 22 Turn to page 286. I'm
23 There have been many times 23 going to get more into the
24 a player has come up and asked, 24 return-to-play decision, but my
25 because they've heard something 25 question is, can you recall a time

612.338.3376
Page 182 Page 184

1 where there was a seven-day waiting 1 BY MR. DEARMAN:
2 period from head injury to return to 2 Q. Okay. Again, this would
3 play while you were with the 3 be something, though, relevant to what
4 organization? 4 you do on a daily basis, correct?
5 A. I can't recall. 5 A. In 2004?
6 Q. Turn to page 287, please. 6 Q. Well, any -- I mean, from
7 Bottom left-hand corner says, 7 the time you started working with
8 postconcussion symptom assessment. 8 hockey players, return to play was a
9 MR. BAUMGARTEN: I'm 9 relevant concern, correct, for any kind
10 sorry, which page? 10 of an injury, correct, it was always
11 MR. DEARMAN: Page 287. 11 relevant?
12 BY MR. DEARMAN: 12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Tell me when you are ready 13 Q. So now I'm asking you, in
14 for me to ask you a question. 14 2004 you read this article from the
15 A. Sure. 15 National Athletic Trainers Association
16 Q. All right. So again, a 16 where you are a member, and it
17 2004 article, and I will represent to 17 indicates a seven-day period of rest
18 you that if you go to the last 18 from reporting of no symptoms to the
19 sentence: The presence of 19 time that you can get back on the ice,
20 self-reported symptoms serves as a 20 before you can play.
21 major contradiction for RTP -- that is 21 My question is, that is
22 letter RTP -- and based on current 22 something that would be relevant to
23 recommendations, the athlete should be 23 you, correct?
24 fully symptom-free for at least seven 24 MR. MALLIN: Object to
25 days at rest and during exertion before 25 form.
Page 183 Page 185

1 returning to play. 1 THE WITNESS: No.
2 RTP is an acronym for 2 BY MR. DEARMAN:
3 return to play, correct? 3 Q. Okay. So another
4 A. I believe so. 4 hypothetical, player gets -- has a head
5 Q. Okay. So the footnotes 43 5 injury, has symptoms, three days later
6 and 44 actually refer to an article 6 he has no symptoms. Medical staff
7 going back as far as 2001. My question 7 says, put him back on the ice, let him
8 to you, though, is in 2004, again, if 8 skate. You don't tell anybody about
9 you received this document from the 9 this article that you read which says,
10 organization that you belong to, it's 10 hey, there is at least a seven-day
11 titled Management of Sport-Related 11 requirement for rest, shouldn't we look
12 Concussion, you indicated that would be 12 at that, isn't that important to
13 relevant. It says here that the 13 anybody?
14 athlete should be fully symptom free 14 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
15 for at least seven days at rest and 15 form.
16 during exertion before returning to 16 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to
17 play. 17 form.
18 My question to you is, do 18 BY MR. DEARMAN:
19 you recall, in 2004, whether or not 19 Q. I'm trying to figure out
20 your organization was using that 20 why that is not relevant to you and
21 seven-day period before return to play? 21 what you do.
22 MR. MALLIN: Object to 22 A. This is another
23 form. 23 hypothetical question, correct?
24 THE WITNESS: I don't 24 Q. I started out as a
25 recall. 25 non-hypothetical question, and you

612.338.3376
Page 186 Page 188

1 indicated it was not relevant. I guess 1 would have been relevant, that you
2 my question is -- let's back up. 2 would have passed on to other
3 Why isn't that relevant to 3 clinicians had you read it?
4 a trainer of a professional hockey 4 A. Had I read it.
5 team? 5 Q. How does fighting in the
6 MR. MALLIN: You are 6 game of hockey impact the athletic
7 talking about this one sentence? 7 trainer's job, if it does?
8 MR. DEARMAN: One sentence 8 MR. MALLIN: Object to
9 that says -- I'm only talking 9 form.
10 about the fact that it mentions 10 THE WITNESS: In what
11 a seven-day resting from no 11 manner?
12 symptoms to return to play. 12 BY MR. DEARMAN:
13 THE WITNESS: Well, again, 13 Q. Any manner. Let's start
14 I don't know who wrote this 14 with any manner that is relevant to
15 article. 15 you.
16 BY MR. DEARMAN: 16 A. Well, with any type of
17 Q. Okay. 17 contact you worry about injury, be it
18 A. And the scientific -- and 18 being hit along the boards or being hit
19 the study that went behind this, so I 19 into the net or a stick.
20 don't have an opinion on it. The only 20 Q. Okay. And my question is,
21 thing I can say is that anyone who ever 21 how does fighting, per se, impact a
22 sustained a head injury within the 22 trainer's job?
23 Philadelphia Flyers' organization -- 23 MR. MALLIN: Objection.
24 and that is all I can speak about. The 24 BY MR. DEARMAN:
25 NATA does not govern our medical staff. 25 Q. I get hitting the boards,
Page 187 Page 189

1 NATA, whoever this was, published the 1 I get other things impacts the
2 article. Our medical staff is governed 2 trainer's job, but I'm asking you
3 by Dr. Gary Dorshimer and the other 3 specifically, fisticuffs.
4 physicians, and it is really up to Dr. 4 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to
5 Dorshimer and the medical staff to 5 form.
6 clear that player to go ahead back to 6 THE WITNESS: Well, I
7 resume activity. Not to play yet, but 7 think how I answered it was with
8 to resume activity. 8 any type of impact, be it hit
9 Q. Okay. 9 along the boards or hit into the
10 A. And then eventually be 10 net or a stick, with any type of
11 cleared. 11 impact you have to worry about
12 Q. To play? 12 injury.
13 A. Eventually. 13 BY MR. DEARMAN:
14 Q. Okay. Eventually. Does 14 Q. Do you see any
15 that mean, at least back in 2004, at 15 distinction, as it impacts a trainer's
16 least seven days of rest? 16 job, between hitting the boards and
17 A. Again, I don't know. I 17 getting punched in the face, as far as
18 wasn't part of that decision-making. I 18 the trainer's job and how it impacts
19 was assistant athletic trainer back in 19 the trainer's job?
20 2004. 20 MR. MALLIN: Object to
21 Q. And that was -- and the 21 form.
22 information we are talking about is in 22 THE WITNESS: Just repeat
23 this National Athletic Trainers' 23 that for me one more time.
24 Association position statement, and 24 BY MR. DEARMAN:
25 would this have been something that 25 Q. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. As a

612.338.3376
Page 190 Page 192

1 trainer in the NHL, I'm wondering how 1 question, and the question again is,
2 -- would you agree with me that there 2 does fighting minimize or maximize
3 is fighting in the NHL? 3 exactly what it is you are attempting
4 A. Yes. 4 to do? You indicate you're attempting
5 Q. So based on the 5 to minimize loss of time, minimize
6 understanding that there is fighting in 6 injury, and I'm saying, and I'm asking
7 the NHL, my question to you is, how 7 you, does fighting work with you or
8 does it impact the trainer's job? 8 against you in your goal?
9 A. No different than any 9 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to
10 other aspect of the game. 10 the form.
11 Q. That's fine. How does it 11 THE WITNESS: Well, first
12 impact the trainer's job? Trainers 12 I have to answer I don't know
13 want to make sure guys stay healthy so 13 what being the ninth most
14 they can play, is that one of the 14 influential person in Flyers
15 things a trainer wants to do? 15 history has to do with fighting
16 A. We want to minimize the 16 in the NHL. I don't think it
17 risk of -- minimize care and prevention 17 has any relevance, and I don't
18 of injury, yes. 18 know the person who voted that
19 Q. And if they are injured, 19 so.
20 then help them rehab to get back out 20 BY MR. DEARMAN:
21 there? 21 Q. Congratulations.
22 A. Yes. 22 A. That's great. Does
23 Q. Okay. Does fighting in 23 fighting influence -- doe fighting
24 the NHL minimize the risk or does it 24 impact how I would do my job different
25 increase the risk? 25 than any other aspect, no.
Page 191 Page 193

1 MR. MALLIN: Object to 1 Q. And that is one question,
2 form. 2 but not the question I'm asking you.
3 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to 3 I'm asking you again, let's say it
4 form. 4 again, what is a trainer's -- what do
5 BY MR. DEARMAN: 5 trainers want to do, what is your goal?
6 Q. Of them missing games, 6 A. Our goal is to help
7 game loss? 7 maintain the health of our players.
8 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to 8 Q. If fighting was not part
9 form. 9 of the game, would that assist you in
10 THE WITNESS: That is 10 your goal?
11 probably better asked by the 11 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
12 doctors -- to the doctors, when 12 form.
13 it comes down to does a fight 13 THE WITNESS: I don't
14 cause any more injury than a 14 know.
15 blatant check. 15 BY MR. DEARMAN:
16 BY MR. DEARMAN: 16 Q. Have you studied it?
17 Q. Do you know that you were 17 A. I have not.
18 acknowledged and honored as the ninth 18 Q. Have you asked anybody
19 most influential person in the Flyers' 19 else to study it?
20 organization? Did you see that 20 A. I have not.
21 article? 21 Q. Have you talked to anybody
22 A. I did. 22 about it?
23 Q. And I'm asking not a 23 A. I have not.
24 doctor, but the ninth most influential 24 Q. Do you have an opinion as
25 person in the organization, this 25 to whether or not fighting should be

612.338.3376
Page 194 Page 196

1 part of the game? 1 MR. DEARMAN: I believe
2 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 2 plaintiffs.
3 form. 3 MR. MALLIN: Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't have 4 BY MR. DEARMAN:
5 an opinion. There is -- no, I 5 Q. You can read it all, or I
6 don't. 6 can just direct you to the issue that I
7 BY MR. DEARMAN: 7 want to discuss with you. Your choice.
8 Q. Have you ever told anybody 8 MR. MALLIN: It is your
9 in the organization that if they took 9 deposition, whatever you think
10 fighting out of the game it would 10 best.
11 assist the trainers in minimizing 11 BY MR. DEARMAN:
12 injury? 12 Q. Do you know who Gary
13 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 13 Bettman is?
14 form. 14 A. Yes, I do.
15 THE WITNESS: No. 15 Q. If you go halfway down, it
16 BY MR. DEARMAN: 16 says from a March 26, 2007 article in
17 Q. Do you know what the 17 ESPN NHL, do you see that?
18 league's position is on fighting? 18 A. Yes, I do.
19 A. I don't. 19 Q. My view on fighting hasn't
20 Q. Would it surprise you to 20 changed, dot, dot, dot, we've never
21 know that they encourage fighting? 21 taken active steps or considered
22 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 22 eliminating fighting from the game.
23 form. 23 I've always taken the view that it is
24 THE WITNESS: I do believe 24 part of the game, and it rises and
25 that the competition committee 25 lowers based on what the game dictates.
Page 195 Page 197

1 is composed of both the Player's 1 I think fighting has always reached
2 Association and members of the 2 whatever level is appropriate in the
3 NHL. I don't know where the 3 game, and has been a part of the game,
4 league stands with it. 4 and I don't have a problem with that.
5 --- 5 Do you see that?
6 (At this time a document 6 A. Yes.
7 was marked for identification as 7 Q. Were you aware that that
8 Exhibit No. P-4.) 8 was Mr. Bettman's position --
9 --- 9 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
11 Q. I'm going to show you a 11 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to
12 document I'm going to mark as Exhibit 12 the form.
13 No. 4. 13 BY MR. DEARMAN:
14 MR. MALLIN: Thank you. 14 Q. -- in March 26, 2007?
15 MR. DEARMAN: You're 15 MR. MALLIN: Same
16 welcome. 16 objection.
18 Q. I'll represent to you this 18 BY MR. DEARMAN:
19 was a filing made by the -- that this 19 Q. Does that surprise you?
20 was a filing in the litigation pending 20 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
21 in Minneapolis that we are here about 21 form.
22 today. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't have
23 MR. MALLIN: Just for the 23 an opinion on it.
24 record, is this a filing by the 24 BY MR. DEARMAN:
25 plaintiffs or defendants? 25

612.338.3376
Page 198 Page 200

1 1 now.
2 2 ---
3 3 (At this time a document
4 4 was marked for identification as
5 5 Exhibit No. P-5.)
6 6 ---
7 7 MR. DEARMAN: How many
8 8 minutes?
9 9 VIDEOGRAPHER: We have
10 10 about six minutes.
11 11 MR. DEARMAN: Go ahead and
12 12 change it.
13 13 VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the
14 14 record. This ends DVD number
15 15 two. The time is 1:30 p.m.
16 16 ---
17 VIDEOGRAPHER: A little 17 (At this time a short
18 less than ten minutes on the 18 break was taken.)
19 tape. 19 ---
20 MR. DEARMAN: All right. 20 VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins
21 Thank you. 21 DVD number three. The time is
22 BY MR. DEARMAN: 22 1:44 p.m., back on the record.
23 Q. Have you ever seen any 23 BY MR. DEARMAN:
24 materials -- are you aware of any 24
25 discussion relating to fighting and how 25
Page 199 Page 201

1 it impacts revenue for the NHL? 1
2 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 2
3 form. 3
4 THE WITNESS: No. 4
5 BY MR. DEARMAN: 5
6 Q. Are you aware that players 6
7 have been concussed as a result of 7
8 fights -- 8
9 A. I am. 9
10 Q. -- in the NHL? Do you 10
11 have an opinion as to whether or not, 11
12 if fighting was removed from the game, 12
13 there would be fewer concussions? 13
14 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 14
15 form. 15
16 THE WITNESS: I don't. 16
17 BY MR. DEARMAN: 17
18 Q. You don't have an opinion? 18 Q. Now, the concussion work
19 A. I don't. 19 group, the original one, is that the
20 Q. Are you aware of any 20 one from '97 or the one from 2005?
21 studies as far as it relates to 21 A. 2000 -- I don't know if it
22 concussions and fighting? 22 was 2005. I think I joined 2008 or
23 A. None that I can recall. 23 something, in that range.
24 Q. I'm going to show you what 24 Q. So are you saying that
25 we are going to mark as Exhibit No. 5 25 these are the originals?

612.338.3376
Page 202 Page 204

1 A. The original people -- 1 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
2 clarification, the original people that 2 form.
3 I was with when I joined. 3 THE WITNESS: No.
4 4 BY MR. DEARMAN:
5 5 Q. On game day, what is the
6 6 distinction between the trainer and the
7 7 strength and conditioning coach as far
8 8 as what you are doing, if you could
9 9 describe it to me that way?
10 10 A. The athletic trainer's
11 11 role on game day is -- well, is to
12 12 treat any injury that the player may
13 13 come up with. It could be a contusion,
14 14 it could be -- we are talking pregame,
15 15 or just throughout the day on the game
16 16 day?
17 17 Q. Let's talk about during
18 18 the game.
19 19 A. Okay. During the game the
20 20 athletic trainer's role is to provide
21 21 any medical care to an injury that may
22 22 occur.
23 23 Q. What is the distinction
24 24 between what the trainer does then and
25 25 a team physician would do?
Page 203 Page 205

1 1 A. We are the first
2 2 responders. Team physician is not on
3 3 the bench.
4 4 Q. So the trainer is on the
5 5 bench for the entirety of the game?
6 6 A. Yes.
7 7 Q. And what is the purpose of
8 8 being on the bench?
9 9 A. Matter of seconds in case
10 10 somebody sustains a very critical
11 11 injury.
12 12 Q. Is one of the things that
13 13 you do as a trainer when you are
14 14 sitting on the bench, watch the game?
15 15 A. I don't sit on the bench.
16 16 We stand behind the bench.
17 Q. Okay. When you were an 17 Q. Okay. When you stand
18 assistant athletic trainer -- let's see 18 behind the bench, what is the purpose
19 if I can get another clarification. 19 of being down there at ice level?
20 Strength and conditioning coach, do 20 A. To observe the game.
21 they go to the games? 21 Q. And what are you observing
22 A. They are there, yes. 22 the game for?
23 Q. Are they involved in the 23 A. Possible injury.
24 treatment or providing any attention to 24 Q. And has that been the same
25 players that are injured during a game? 25 since you started as a trainer?

612.338.3376
Page 206 Page 208

1 A. Yes. 1 responders. We'll go out and assess
2 Q. That is what happens 2 that injury, and in our assessment, if
3 today, that is what trainers do? 3 we deem that the player needs to see a
4 A. Yes. 4 physician, we will bring them back. We
5 Q. What is a trainer's role 5 bring them back to see the physician,
6 with regard to return to play -- strike 6 dependent upon the injury.
7 that question. 7 Q. So are there times that
8 What is a trainer's job 8 you would go out and see a player, and
9 with respect to removal from play, if 9 a determination -- the trainer would
10 anything? 10 make a determination, we don't need to
11 A. Athletic trainer? 11 bring him off the ice to see a doctor?
12 Q. Athletic trainer. 12 A. Yes.
13 MR. MALLIN: You are 13 Q. And there are times that,
14 talking about at the Flyers? 14 yes, we need to take them off the ice
15 MR. DEARMAN: Yes. Yes. 15 to see a doctor?
16 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Can you 16 A. Correct.
17 specify the time frame? 17 Q. I'm going to direct my
18 MR. DEARMAN: Yeah. 18 questions now to head injuries and the
19 BY MR. DEARMAN: 19 role of the trainer regarding removal
20 Q. 1998, if you want to start 20 from play. Has that been the same
21 there, and we can work our way forward, 21 since you started until today?
22 or is there a point where it was one 22 A. From 1998 to today?
23 thing and then it was another thing, 23 Q. Yes.
24 and you can make it easier on us to get 24 A. It has evolved.
25 through it, your choice. I am not sure 25 Q. Okay. How has it evolved?
Page 207 Page 209

1 that there is a way to do that. Did 1 A. It has evolved as sports
2 that issue change significantly at one 2 science has evolved, as the research
3 point in time that you can recall? 3 has evolved, which is ongoing. The
4 A. Just restate your 4 more -- what we knew back in '98 to
5 question. 5 what we know now has changed, to what
6 Q. Yeah. Removal from play, 6 we know now to in 20 years from now
7 and by that I mean somebody is injured 7 will change.
8 and you say, you got to get off the 8 Q. Okay. And as it relates
9 ice, does a trainer have any role in 9 to the way that you would, as a
10 that? 10 trainer, deal with a player that had a
11 A. Yes. 11 head injury, how has it evolved, I mean
12 Q. Has that been the 12 what was the difference between what
13 situation since you started with the 13 you did early on in '98 and what you
14 organization? 14 are doing now, if anything?
15 A. Yes. 15 A. Not much of a difference.
16 Q. Okay. Has that changed in 16 Q. So back, let's talk about
17 any fashion, the scope of when you 17 prior to 2005. You were an assistant
18 would make that call? 18 trainer, right?
19 A. No. 19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Okay. So then describe to 20 Q. Did you stand behind the
21 me what the trainer's role is with 21 bench as well?
22 regard to removal from play as a result 22 A. Only when the head trainer
23 of an injury. 23 had to leave with a player who was
24 A. If a player is to sustain 24 injured.
25 an injury on the ice, we are the first 25

612.338.3376
Page 210 Page 212

1 1 Q. Okay. So prior to 2008,
2 2 if a player was out on the ice and had
3 3 a head injury, who determines whether
4 4 or not there was a head injury? Is
5 5 that because what the trainer is
6 6 watching?
7 7 A. All we can do is suspect,
8 8 that's -- and -- all you can do is
9 9 suspect. The player gets hit, the
10 10 signs and symptoms that you look for
11 11 possibly on the ice, and, you know,
12 12 obviously if the player is conscious,
13 13 it makes it easier. If it is
14 14 unconscious, it is real easy, but, you
15 15 know, you are trying to get feedback
16 16 from the player. You are trying to do
17 17 your evaluation, your quick screen,
18 18 your medical screen, and then you bring
19 19 them back and get them thoroughly
20 20 evaluated by the team physician.
21 21 Q. So prior to 2008, the
22 22 player has not lost consciousness out
23 23 on the ice. You walk out on the ice.
24 24 Is there a procedure that you undergo
25 25 to evaluate that player?
Page 211 Page 213

1 1 A. I do a quick neurological
2 2 screen on them.
3 Q. Okay. So prior to 2008, 3 Q. Okay. And that
4 how, as a trainer, would you handle a 4 neurological screening is something
5 head injury? 5 that was used at the Flyers since you
6 MR. MALLIN: We are 6 were an assistant athletic trainer to
7 talking again now, this 7 the time you -- in 2008, when you were
8 individual at the Flyers? 8 the head athletic trainer?
9 MR. DEARMAN: That's it. 9 A. I can't speak for my
10 MR. MALLIN: Okay. 10 predecessor.
11 THE WITNESS: If we 11
12 suspected a player to have a 12
13 head injury, they would be 13
14 removed from the game, and if 14
15 the player -- if they were on 15
16 the ice, we would remove the 16
17 player from the game. If the 17
18 player came back to the bench, 18
19 obviously our evaluation would 19
20 have to be done on the bench, 20
21 and they would be removed, 21
22 again, to be further evaluated 22
23 by our team physician, Dr. 23
24 Dorshimer. 24

612.338.3376
Page 214 Page 216

1 1 Q. And in '06?
2 2 A. I did.
3 3 Q. And you continue to do the
4 4 same screening?
5 5 A. I do.
6 6 Q. And what is that
7 7 screening, what does it consist of?
8 8 A. Memory recall, looking at
9 9 the pupils, rapid eye movement,
10 10 listening to the players, their
11 11 symptoms, what they are experiencing.
12 12 I have the -- the feedback from the
13 13 linesmen or the referee or a player who
14 14 may have saw the player black out. So
15 15 you are out there, you are trying to
16 16 gather as much information as quickly
17 17 as you can, but it is really what it
18 18 comes down to, assessing the player
19 19 yourself and gathering it all and then
20 20 relaying that information to the team
21 21 physician so they can make -- so they
22 22 have that information when they make
23 23 their examination.
24 24 Q. And from the time that you
25 25 get to the player and the time that
Page 215 Page 217

1 1 there is a physician there, is the
2 2 physician -- the physician doesn't get
3 3 involved until you are off the ice,
4 4 correct?
5 5 A. No.
6 6 Q. Typically?
7 7 A. No, not all the time.
8 8 Q. Sometimes the physician
9 9 could come out onto the ice?
10 10 A. In a severe case, yes.
11 11 Q. Okay. Have -- what is the
12 12 coach's role, if any, in this return to
13 13 play, removal-of-play decision with
14 14 regards to a head injury, if anything?
15 15 MR. MALLIN: Object to
16 16 form.
17 17 THE WITNESS: The coach's
18 18 role?
20 Q. Okay. This quick 20 Q. Yes.
21 neurological screening that you did, 21 A. In the medical decision?
22 did you do that quick neurological 22 Q. Well, I'm asking you if
23 screening when you became the head 23 you have ever had a conversation with a
24 trainer in '05? 24 coach during your time at the
25 A. I did. 25 organization where you indicated

612.338.3376
Page 218 Page 220

1 somebody should be removed from play 1 be removed from play would, on his own,
2 because of what you perceived to be a 2 make a statement to you as a trainer
3 head injury and they overruled that 3 that he wants to go back out and play?
4 decision. 4 MR. MALLIN: You can
5 MR. MALLIN: They, being a 5 respond to the question, but be
6 coach? 6 careful. Here, again, I caution
7 MR. DEARMAN: They, being 7 you, you don't want to share any
8 a coach. 8 personal medical information; in
9 THE WITNESS: Never 9 other words, a particular
10 happened. 10 player. I think he is asking in
11 BY MR. DEARMAN: 11 general, but I just want to make
12 Q. General manager? 12 sure you are aware of that
13 A. Absolutely not. 13 caution.
14 Q. Have you ever had anyone 14 THE WITNESS: Can you
15 overrule a decision to remove somebody 15 repeat that one more time,
16 from play as it relates to a head 16 please.
17 injury? 17 BY MR. DEARMAN:
18 A. Never. 18 Q. Sure. Is there a time
19 Q. How about any injury? 19 period, and I'm asking you now before
20 A. Never. 20 2008, whereby you would take a player
21 Q. Never had somebody that 21 -- you would remove a player from the
22 you thought should come off that a 22 game, and they basically argue with you
23 coach said to you, this guy doesn't 23 and you basically let them go back in
24 need to come off? 24 the game?
25 MR. MALLIN: Object to 25 A. Never.
Page 219 Page 221

1 form. 1 Q. I'm going to show you a
2 THE WITNESS: Never. 2 document. This will be Exhibit-6,
3 BY MR. DEARMAN: 3 Bates 34239.
4 4 ---
5 5 (At this time a document
6 6 was marked for identification as
7 7 Exhibit No. P-6.)
8 8 ---
9 9 BY MR. DEARMAN:
10 10 Q. 34239 and 34340. Do you
11 11 know Brendan Shanahan?
12 12 A. I do.
13 13 Q. Colin Campbell?
14 Q. Have you ever responded to 14 A. I know of him.
15 somebody who got -- it wasn't a fight, 15 Q. Matthew Snyder?
16 but they got hit in the head and you 16 A. I do.
17 thought it was a concussion, or you 17 Q. Rob Blake?
18 made a determination that the player 18 A. Yes.
19 should be removed from play? 19 Q. Who is Brendan Shanahan?
20 A. Any player that gets hit 20 A. I believe he is the new
21 in the head and we suspect, they are 21 president of the Toronto Maple Leaves.
22 going to be removed for evaluation by 22 Q. Matthew Snyder, who is he?
23 our team physician. 23 A. Matthew is a --
24 Q. Do you, prior to 2008, 24 MR. BAUMGARTEN: You are
25 recall a time where a player who would 25 asking who these people are

612.338.3376
Page 222 Page 224

1 today? 1 that. Had you ever heard, got my bell
2 MR. DEARMAN: Yeah. 2 rung?
3 THE WITNESS: All I know 3 A. I've heard of it.
4 is Matthew is a former player. 4 Q. Is it a term that you
5 BY MR. DEARMAN: 5 used?
6 Q. How about Rob Blake? 6 A. No.
7 A. Former player. 7 Q. Do you know what it means?
8 Q. And how about Colin 8 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
9 Campbell? 9 form.
10 A. I believe Colin -- well, 10 THE WITNESS: I believe
11 Colin is with the NHL. Off the top of 11 it's a reference to getting hit
12 my head, it is blanking, I don't know 12 in the head.
13 his actual job title. 13 BY MR. DEARMAN:
14 Q. Do you know if, in 2011, 14
15 Brendan was the president of the 15
16 Toronto Maple Leaves, or did he have 16
17 another role? 17
18 A. I'm not sure what 18
19 Brendan's role was back then. 19
20 Q. If you turn to the second 20
21 page of the document? 21
22 A. Oh, here it is right here. 22
23 Q. There it is, senior vice 23
24 president of player safety in the NHL, 24
25 does that refresh your recollection? 25
Page 223 Page 225

1 A. It does. 1
2 Q. And if you take a look at 2 BY MR. DEARMAN:
3 that first e-mail trail, which is dated 3 Q. Okay. Do you believe that
4 12/28/2011, at 10:43, from Brendan to 4 players feel pressure to play, to stay
5 Matt, Rob, and BCC Colin Campbell. Do 5 healthy and to play?
6 you see that? 6 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
7 A. Yes. 7 form.
8 8 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to
9 9 the form.
11 11 Q. I'll just ask it simply,
12 12 do you believe that players feel
13 13 pressure to play?
14 14 MR. MALLIN: Object to
15 15 form.
16 16 THE WITNESS: I don't have
17 17 an opinion what the players
18 18 think.
20 20 Q. Have you ever talked to
21 21 any players who felt like they were
22 22 concerned that if they were taken off
23 Q. I think I asked you before 23 of the ice because of an injury, that
24 about bell rung, that was something you 24 they might lose their spot or their
25 had not heard. I could be wrong about 25 position?

612.338.3376
Page 226 Page 228

1 MR. MALLIN: Here again, 1 sorry. Can I hear the question
2 in responding, don't disclose 2 back?
3 any personal medical information 3 MR. DEARMAN: Yeah, I'll
4 that a particular player you may 4 just state it again.
5 have shared. If you can answer 5 BY MR. DEARMAN:
6 the question in general, you may 6 Q. So as opposed to asking
7 do so. 7 you whether you had a conversation with
8 THE WITNESS: No. 8 a player about it, had you ever heard
9 BY MR. DEARMAN: 9 any conversation or been part of a
10 Q. So since you started with 10 conversation with the NHL about that
11 this organization, you don't recall one 11 issue?
12 conversation with a player whereby they 12 A. No.
13 indicated to you they were concerned 13 Q. Do you believe that,
14 that as a result of the injury, they 14 looking back over your time with the
15 were going to lose their position? 15 Flyers, that as you sit here now, that
16 A. None that I can recall. 16 there are players that you regret
17 Q. How about a conversation 17 sending back out to play or that were
18 with a player who was trying to return 18 sent out to play after a head injury?
19 to play? 19 MR. MALLIN: Object to
20 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to 20 form.
21 the form. 21 MR. DEARMAN: I'm going to
22 BY MR. DEARMAN: 22 ask that more artfully.
23 Q. Did you ever hear any 23 BY MR. DEARMAN:
24 conversation or had any conversation 24 Q. During your time in the
25 with a player that they indicated that 25 organization, and as you sit here
Page 227 Page 229

1 they needed to return to play because 1 today, do you ever say to yourself
2 they are concerned that they are going 2 that, you know, you regret that a
3 to lose their spot? 3 player was sent -- was returned to play
4 A. No. 4 when they shouldn't have been as a
5 Q. Ever have any 5 result of a head injury?
6 conversations with any players or been 6 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
7 involved in any conversations where 7 form.
8 they indicated that if they are not on 8 THE WITNESS: Just so I
9 the ice, they might lose their job, 9 have it right.
10 they were concerned about that? 10 BY MR. DEARMAN:
11 MR. MALLIN: Object to 11 Q. Yeah.
12 form. 12 A. You are asking me, do I
13 THE WITNESS: No. 13 regret ever sending somebody back?
14 BY MR. DEARMAN: 14 Q. I'm not asking you whether
15 Q. Were you ever at any 15 you regret sending somebody back. I'm
16 meetings, NHL meetings, whereby a 16 asking you whether or not, looking back
17 conversation was had about the fact 17 at players that were sent back to play,
18 that players may feel that they are 18 return to play after a head injury,
19 pressured to be out there -- 19 whether now you are saying to yourself
20 MR. MALLIN: Object to 20 that maybe that person or that player
21 form. 21 should not have been sent back to play.
22 BY MR. DEARMAN: 22 MR. MALLIN: I object to
23 Q. -- so they don't lose 23 form.
24 their position? 24 THE WITNESS: No, I don't
25 MR. BAUMGARTEN: I'm 25 regret because everybody that --

612.338.3376
Page 230 Page 232

1 who's sustained a head injury 1 A. I do.
2 has gone through the proper 2 Q. He is the vice president
3 medical clearance with our team 3 of hockey operations, at least in 2013,
4 physicians. 4 for the National Hockey League.
5 BY MR. DEARMAN: 5 A. That is what it says, yes.
6 Q. Anytime with your -- with 6 Q. Do you know if he still
7 the organization were you instructed on 7 is?
8 how to speak to the press relating to 8 A. I don't know.
9 head injuries or concussions? 9 Q. We've talked about Colin
10 A. No. 10 Campbell already. He is with the NHL,
11 Q. How about generally, in 11 you just don't know what is title is,
12 the way that you should speak to the 12 correct?
13 press? 13 A. Correct.
14 A. No. 14 Q. How about Mike Murphy?
15 Q. Were you permitted anytime 15 A. I know of Michael. I
16 you wanted to talk to the press, at any 16 don't know his title.
17 time while you were with the 17 Q. Do you know if he is with
18 organization? 18 the NHL?
19 A. I never really do, but 19 A. I don't know.
20 nobody has ever said no. 20 Q. Rod Pasma?
21 Q. Do you have an opinion as 21 A. I don't know.
22 to whether or not the failure of 22 Q. Kay Whitmore?
23 officials to -- well, let me ask it 23 A. Kay was a former player.
24 this way: Do you have an opinion as to 24 Q. And do you know if Kay is
25 whether or not the failure to penalize 25 involved in the NHL now?
Page 231 Page 233

1 players is a cause or a contributing 1 A. I don't know.
2 factor to the number of concussions of 2
3 players? 3
4 MR. MALLIN: Object to 4
5 form. 5
6 THE WITNESS: No. 6
7 BY MR. DEARMAN: 7
8 Q. Are you aware of any 8
9 discussion amongst trainers relating to 9
10 that issue? 10
11 A. Not that I'm aware of. 11
12 MR. MALLIN: Jim, you need 12
13 water or anything? 13
14 THE WITNESS: No, I'm 14
15 fine. Thank you. 15
16 --- 16
17 (At this time a document 17
18 was marked for identification as 18
19 Exhibit No. P-7.) 19
20 --- 20
22 Q. I'm going to show you what 22
23 is marked number seven. It is Bates 23
24 stamped 79416, dated June 26, 2013. Do 24
25 you know who Chris King is? 25

612.338.3376
Page 234 Page 236

1 BY MR. DEARMAN: 1
2 Q. Do you know who the head 2
3 trainer was at Ottawa in June of 2013? 3
4 A. I do know the head. 4 Q. What role does a head
5 Q. Who is that? 5 trainer have in the return-to-play
6 A. There is a few, but there 6 decision, and has that changed at any
7 is one head. That is Jerry Towend. 7 time?
8 Q. Can you spell that for us? 8 MR. MALLIN: Object to
9 A. Jerry, I think it's 9 form. You are talking about his
10 T-O-W-E-N-D, or Townsend or Talbet, 10 role?
11 forgive me. 11 MR. DEARMAN: Yeah, his
12 12 role as a head trainer.
13 13 THE WITNESS: Is to
14 14 provide the information to the
15 15 team physician, who will at some
16 16 point hopefully clear the player
17 17 to go back to play.
19 19 Q. And who makes the final
20 20 call on the return to play?
21 21 A. Team physician.
22 22 Q. Prior to the quiet room
23 23 being instituted, did the trainer have
24 24 a different role as far as making a
25 25 determination as to whether or not the
Page 235 Page 237

1 1 player should be removed, or was that
2 2 always the same decision?
3 3 MR. MALLIN: Here again,
4 4 you are talking about at the
5 5 Flyers?
6 6 MR. DEARMAN: Yeah.
7 7 MR. BAUMGARTEN: And you
8 8 are talking about removal, as
9 9 opposed to return?
10 10 MR. DEARMAN: Right.
11 11
12 12
13 13
14 14
15 15
16 16
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20
21 21
22 22
23 23
24 24
25 25

612.338.3376
Page 238 Page 240

1 1
2 2
3 3
4 4
5 5
6 6
7 7
8 8
9 9
10 10 Q. Well, previously I think
11 11 you said that sometimes when you
12 12 discuss long-term risks with a player,
13 13 that would also encourage them to open
14 14 up.
15 15 A. To open up to make sure
16 16 that their symptoms are fully
17 17 disclosed.
18 18 Q. Why wouldn't they fully
19 19 disclose their symptoms?
20 20 A. I am not saying they would
21 21 or would not. I'm just saying when
22 22 they are alone with a physician, they
23 23 may feel more comfortable doing so. I
24 24 can't speak for the player.
25 25 Q. And you've never had -- to
Page 239 Page 241

1 1 be clear, you have never had a
2 2 conversation with a player where they
3 3 feel pressured not to be open about
4 4 symptoms?
5 5 A. I never had a conversation
6 6 with a player where they felt pressure
7 7 not to be open, yes.
8 8 Q. And never had a
9 9 conversation with anybody within the
10 10 organization, correct, on that same
11 11 issue?
12 12 A. No.
13 13 Q. Did you ever have a
14 14 conversation with a coach, a general
15 15 manager, an owner?
16 16 A. About a player not being
17 17 open?
18 18 Q. Yeah.
19 19 A. No.
20 20 Q. Okay. Or about a player
21 21 feeling like they are pressured not to
22 22 be open.
23 23 A. No.
24 24 Q. I'm going to show you a
25 25 document that we'll mark as plaintiff's

612.338.3376
Page 242 Page 244

1 eight. 1 A. It is PHATS, and it is
2 MR. DEARMAN: Madam 2 Professional Hockey --
3 reporter, I haven't been writing 3 Q. Sorry about that.
4 plaintiff's, will you do that? 4 A. That is okay.
5 Thank you very much. 5 Professional Hockey Athletic Trainer
6 --- 6 Society.
7 (At this time a document 7 Q. And how long were you the
8 was marked for identification as 8 PHATS president -- was it president or
9 Exhibit No. P-8.) 9 representative?
10 --- 10 A. I was a representative.
11 BY MR. DEARMAN: 11 Q. Okay. What does that
12 12 mean?
13 13 A. That I represented the
14 14 trainers of PHATS in the concussion
15 15 working group.
16 16 Q. Does that mean you had
17 17 conversations with any of the other
18 18 trainers as related to what you were
19 19 doing for the concussion program?
20 20 A. Yes.
21 21 Q. Why was the -- if you
22 22 know, do you know why -- what is the
23 23 difference between the concussion
24 24 working group and the concussion
25 25 program, if there is a difference?
Page 243 Page 245

1 1 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
2 2 form.
3 3 BY MR. DEARMAN:
4 4
5 5
6 6
7 7
8 8
9 9
10 10
11 11
12 12
13 13
14 14
15 15
16 16
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20
21 21
22 22
23 23
24 Q. What is the PHATS 24
25 representative? 25

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Page 246 Page 248

1 1 Q. Probably not the e-mail,
2 2 but the attachment which is the
3 3 concussion program, which is the second
4 4 page of the exhibit.
5 5 A. Just so I have it right,
6 6 you are asking me if I saw the first
7 7 two pages ever, or the entire document?
8 8 Q. I have a better question
9 9 for you. Summary of activities,
10 10 November 1, 2009, do you see that?
11 11 A. Yes.
12 12 Q. Did you receive a summary
13 13 of activities for any concussion
14 14 program while you were on the PHATS
15 15 representative -- while you were the
16 16 PHATS representative?
17 17 A. I can't recall getting
18 18 this, but I did receive summaries of
19 19 our meetings, yes.
20 20 Q. And they were in the
21 21 format that we are looking at here?
22 22 A. I really can't recall,
23 23 but.
24 24 Q. Do you have a reason to
25 25 believe, as the PHATS representative in
Page 247 Page 249

1 1 -- since 2005, that you would not have
2 2 received the summary of activities from
3 BY MR. DEARMAN: 3 November 1st, 2009, as you sit here?
4 Q. You were the PHATS 4 MR. MALLIN: Let me just
5 representative in '06, '07, '08, '09; 5 object to the form. You may
6 is that correct? 6 want to inquire further. I
7 A. Yes. In about those 7 think that you will find that he
8 years, yes. 8 was not the representative since
9 MR. MALLIN: I'm sorry. 9 2005, just so there is clarity
10 Can you read that answer back, 10 on the record.
11 please. 11 MR. DEARMAN: Okay. Well,
12 --- 12 that might be a good idea, then.
13 (At this time the court 13 BY MR. DEARMAN:
14 reporter read back from the 14 Q. When were you the PHATS
15 record as was requested.) 15 representative?
16 --- 16 MR. DEARMAN: Thank you.
17 BY MR. DEARMAN: 17 THE WITNESS: I believe I
18 Q. Do you recall receiving 18 joined 2008.
19 the concussion program summary of 19 BY MR. DEARMAN:
20 activities November 1st of 2009? 20 Q. It does say since 2005
21 MR. MALLIN: You talking 21 here, though, correct?
22 about this document we have 22 MR. BAUMGARTEN: It says
23 before us? 23 group since 2005, current group
24 MR. DEARMAN: Yeah. 24 members include.
25 BY MR. DEARMAN: 25 MR. DEARMAN: Okay. All

612.338.3376
Page 250 Page 252

1 right. Fair enough. Thank you. 1 what?
2 MR. MALLIN: I just want 2 BY MR. DEARMAN:
3 to make sure your record was 3
4 clean on that point. 4
5 MR. DEARMAN: I appreciate 5
6 that. 6
7 BY MR. DEARMAN: 7
8 Q. So you think you got 8
9 involved in 2008, correct? 9
10 A. I believe so, yes. 10
11 Q. Okay. And I think that is 11
12 what you have been saying, and I 12
13 haven't been listening. 13
14 14
15 15
16 16
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20 Q. As a trainer, you care
21 21 about the players, correct?
22 22 A. I care about my players,
23 23 correct.
24 24
25 25
Page 251 Page 253

1 1
2 2
3 3
4 4
5 5
6 6
7 7
8 8
9 9
10 10
11 11
12 12
13 13
14 14
15 15
16 16
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20
21 21
22 Q. Why not? 22
23 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to 23
24 the form. 24
25 THE WITNESS: Why not 25

612.338.3376
Page 254 Page 256

1 1 form.
2 2 THE WITNESS: I don't.
3 3 BY MR. DEARMAN:
4 4 Q. Have you ever talked to
5 5 anybody within the Flyers' organization
6 6 about that topic?
7 7 MR. MALLIN: Here again, I
8 8 just caution you to make sure
9 9 you don't disclose any personal
10 10 medical information that may
11 11 have been exchanged between you
12 12 and any player.
13 13 THE WITNESS: Repeat the
14 14 question, please.
16 16 Q. Sure. Did you have any
17 17 discussion with anyone in the Flyers'
18 18 organization regarding looking at the
19 19 link between multiple head injuries or
20 20 repetitive head injuries and long-term
21 21 neurological injuries?
22 Q. If you turn to page five 22 MR. MALLIN: Object to
23 of the document that you are looking 23 form.
24 at, bearing Bates No. 25779, do you see 24 THE WITNESS: None that I
25 the first bullet point there on that 25 can recall.
Page 255 Page 257

1 page, which says, dementia study? 1 BY MR. DEARMAN:
2 A. I do. 2
3 3
4 4
5 5
6 6
7 7
8 8
9 9
10 10
11 11
12 12
13 13
14 Q. Do you know whether or not 14 Q. Are you aware that the
15 the NHL concedes that there is a link 15 National Football League concedes that
16 between long-term neurological injury 16 there is a link between long-term
17 and multiple head injuries? 17 neurological injury and repetitive head
18 MR. MALLIN: Object to 18 injury?
19 form. 19 MR. MALLIN: Object to
20 THE WITNESS: I don't. 20 form.
21 BY MR. DEARMAN: 21 THE WITNESS: Got to be
22 Q. Do you know whether the 22 honest with you, that is pro
23 Flyers organization believes that there 23 football. I'm a trainer in the
24 is a link? 24 NHL, and I really don't follow
25 MR. MALLIN: Object to 25 what pro football says or

612.338.3376
Page 258 Page 260

1 doesn't say. 1 BY MR. DEARMAN:
2 BY MR. DEARMAN: 2
3 Q. Are you familiar with 3
4 the -- 4
5 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Take a 5
6 break. 6
7 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 7
8 2:42 p.m. Off the record. 8
9 --- 9
10 (At this time a short 10 Q. Who is Rubin, if you know?
11 break was taken.) 11 A. Rubin is a
12 --- 12 neuropsychologist with the NHL.
13 VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on at 13 Q. He is a doctor?
14 2:51 p.m. 14 A. No, he is not. He has a
15 BY MR. DEARMAN: 15 doctorate. He is not a doctor.
16 16 Q. Bill Daly?
17 17 A. Bill is with the NHL.
18 18 Q. Julie Grand?
19 19 A. Is with the NHL.
20 20 Q. Do you know who Jeff Klein
21 21 is from the subject line?
22 22 A. I do not.
23 23
25 is marked as Exhibit No. 9 now. 25
Page 259 Page 261

1 --- 1
5 --- 5
6 MR. MALLIN: Thank you. 6
7 BY MR. DEARMAN: 7
8 Q. Do you know what CTE is, 8
9 sir? 9
10 A. I do. 10
11 Q. And when is it that you 11
12 became familiar with that term? 12
13 A. I'm not sure. 13
14 Q. Do you know if it was 14
15 before 2005, when you became the head 15
16 trainer? 16
17 A. I'm not certain. 17
18 Q. Okay. I might have asked 18
19 this before, but I'll ask it again. Do 19
20 you know whether or not the NFL has 20
21 conceded a link between CTE and 21
22 repetitive head injury or brain trama? 22
24 form. 24
25 THE WITNESS: I do not. 25

612.338.3376
Page 262 Page 264

1 1 they do have any further
2 2 questions about it or if they
3 3 want more information, they
4 4 should contact our team
5 5 physician.
6 Q. Well, are you aware that 6 BY MR. DEARMAN:
7 there is a causal link between CTE and 7 Q. When did you first tell
8 repetitive brain trauma? 8 any player that?
9 MR. MALLIN: Object to 9 A. I don't recall the actual
10 form. 10 date.
11 THE WITNESS: I'm not an 11 Q. Do you recall any of the
12 expert. You know, it is 12 players that you told that to?
13 probably better asked for the 13 MR. MALLIN: You are
14 doctors and those who are 14 talking, do you remember names?
15 experts. You know, I can only 15 MR. DEARMAN: That's it.
16 go by what I read, and I can't 16 MR. MALLIN: Don't provide
17 recall -- well, I never saw this 17 any names, just do you recall
18 document before, and so. 18 the names.
19 BY MR. DEARMAN: 19 THE WITNESS: Do I recall
20 Q. As a trainer, have you 20 the player, yes.
21 ever warned anybody, any player, 21 BY MR. DEARMAN:
22 without giving me the name of the 22 Q. Do you recall more than
23 player, that there is a risk of getting 23 one player that you had the
24 CTE from repetitive brain trauma or 24 conversation with?
25 repetitive hits? 25 A. Yes.
Page 263 Page 265

1 MR. MALLIN: Object to 1 Q. How many players do you
2 form. 2 think you had that conversation with?
3 THE WITNESS: I've spoken 3 A. Two.
4 with players on casual 4 Q. Are any of those players
5 conversation, and let them know 5 still in the league?
6 there may be a possibility, and 6 MR. MALLIN: * Well,
7 again, from the research that 7 again, I think at that point
8 I've read, in my understanding 8 what you are doing is beating
9 of that, and again not being an 9 around the bush to get to
10 expert, but any other questions 10 essentially medical, private
11 I would say defer to our team 11 medical information that this
12 physicians, who are better, much 12 witness may have shared with his
13 better educated than I am. 13 players, so I'm going to
14 BY MR. DEARMAN: 14 instruct him not to answer.
15 Q. You were just telling them 15 MR. DEARMAN: Whether they
16 what you understand the risk is, as 16 are still in the league or not?
17 opposed to what the doctor knows, the 17 MR. MALLIN: I think,
18 team doctor? 18 again, you are trying to connect
19 MR. MALLIN: Object to 19 dots in order to figure out,
20 form. 20 based upon his position with the
21 THE WITNESS: I was 21 Flyers and players he may have
22 telling them, again, my players, 22 tended to overtime and what you
23 our players, that there may be a 23 may have read in public media
24 possibility of a risk, and that 24 about those things, and as a
25 I'm not the expert, and that if 25 result of which I am not going

612.338.3376
Page 266 Page 268

1 to allow him to answer this 1 conversation on it.
2 question. 2 Q. Do you recall when?
3 BY MR. DEARMAN: 3 A. I don't.
4 Q. But as you sit here now, 4 Q. So earlier you told me
5 you recall who those players were, 5 that there were some individual players
6 correct? 6 you had a conversation, and then you
7 A. Yes. 7 said there was a group discussion. Do
8 Q. And the same thing goes 8 you know when that group discussion
9 for the players that you would have had 9 occurred?
10 discussions with about the long-term 10 A. I don't.
11 neurological injuries related to 11 Q. Do you know who was in the
12 repetitive injuries that we talked 12 group discussion?
13 about before, although you are not 13 A. I don't.
14 telling me who the players are, you 14 Q. Do you know where the
15 recall who the players were as you sit 15 group discussion occurred?
16 here today? 16 A. At our practice facility.
17 A. Those who I've had 17 Q. So not asking you about
18 individual -- 18 all the players that were there, do you
19 Q. Yeah. 19 know who from the organization besides
20 A. I can't tell you who was 20 yourself was in the room?
21 all in group discussions. 21 A. I don't, if there was any
22 Q. Tell me about the group 22 -- you are talking about management or
23 discussion. Was there a group 23 coaches?
24 discussion? 24 Q. Coaches, management,
25 A. I can't -- well, yes, I 25 clerks, people that sharpen pencils,
Page 267 Page 269

1 can't exactly tell you the dates, 1 anybody.
2 because I can't remember, but players 2 A. I'm pretty certain there
3 will come to you because I am where I 3 were not any clerks, because we don't
4 am, being a medical trainer, head 4 have them. Management, no. I believe
5 medical trainer, and say that I heard 5 it was just myself and players that
6 this, I read that, I listened to this, 6 they may have been -- may have been up
7 what do you know about it? 7 in the weight room or down in the
8 And again, as I stated 8 medical room at the time, and somebody
9 earlier, I would say that there may be 9 may have heard something on the TV and
10 a risk, from the information -- if I 10 said, what do you know about this?
11 knew about what they were speaking 11 Q. And did that happen once
12 about, be it dementia, CTE, whatever, 12 or more than once?
13 that there may be a risk, may. 13 A. I can't recall how many
14 Q. Understood. 14 times it has happened.
15 A. But again, not being the 15 Q. And do you recall, as you
16 expert, Dr. Dorshimer would be the 16 sit here today, some of the players
17 person that you want to speak with, and 17 that were in the room for that
18 he has been always open and willing to 18 conversation, any of them?
19 speak with anybody about it. 19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you ever have a 20 Q. And who were they?
21 conversation with Dr. Dorshimer about 21 MR. MALLIN: Why don't you
22 these risks? 22 ask a few more questions in
23 A. Gary and I speak daily 23 terms of what we are talking
24 about these risks. I'm certain at some 24 about, or allow me to do it? It
25 point we've had -- have had 25 seems to me that this is clearly

612.338.3376
Page 270 Page 272

1 going to be providing medical 1 to gather that information so they
2 information to players, and as a 2 could learn about the risks?
3 result of which without a 3 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
4 release, I'm not going to allow 4 form.
5 him to testify. Now, you may be 5 THE WITNESS: I can't
6 able to develop through more 6 answer for the players, why they
7 questions -- 7 were asking.
8 MR. DEARMAN: I appreciate 8 BY MR. DEARMAN:
9 it. Just instruct him. 9 Q. These conversations -- and
10 MR. MALLIN: * I'll 10 let's talk about any of the group
11 instruct him not to answer, but 11 conversations, did they relate to
12 I'll give you the opportunity to 12 specific players, or was it a general
13 ask more questions to avoid my 13 conversation about the risk?
14 concerns. 14 MR. MALLIN: Object to
16 Q. The question that I'm 16 THE WITNESS: Just so I
17 going to ask you is, what are the 17 understand the question
18 players' names that were in the room? 18 correctly.
19 MR. MALLIN: * I'll 19 BY MR. DEARMAN:
20 instruct you not to answer that 20 Q. Yeah.
21 question without more 21 A. You are asking when I had
22 development of the facts. 22 a group conversation, was it about a
23 BY MR. DEARMAN: 23 specific player?
24 Q. One of the things you 24 Q. Correct.
25 mentioned is that somebody might have 25 A. On our team?
Page 271 Page 273

1 saw something on the TV, and then they 1 Q. Yeah.
2 raised the issue with you, correct? 2 A. We can't disclose
3 A. Correct. 3 information to other players about
4 Q. Who was the player that 4 injuries, so, no, it wasn't that.
5 saw it on the TV and raised the issue 5 Q. Okay. So it would have
6 with you? 6 been a general conversation about the
7 MR. MALLIN: * Here again, 7 risk?
8 I'll instruct you not to answer. 8 A. Yes.
9 MR. DEARMAN: You think he 9 Q. Can I still -- can I have
10 got his medical information from 10 any of the names of the players that
11 the television? 11 you had the general conversation about
12 MR. MALLIN: No, I think 12 the risk with?
13 what he was turning to, to this 13 MR. MALLIN: Hold on a
14 gentleman for, was information 14 second. Give us a break.
15 about a medical issue. I 15 VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the
16 believe that to be protected. 16 record. The time is 3:04 p.m.
17 BY MR. DEARMAN: 17 ---
18 Q. Do you believe that the 18 (At this time a short
19 players that had conversations with you 19 break was taken.)
20 about these risks felt that they may be 20 ---
21 at risk? 21 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
22 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 22 3:07 p.m. Back on the record.
23 form. 23 ---
24 BY MR. DEARMAN: 24 (At this time the court
25 Q. Or were they just trying 25 reporter read back from the

612.338.3376
Page 274 Page 276

1 record as was requested.) 1
2 --- 2
3 THE WITNESS: I don't 3
4 recall. 4
5 BY MR. DEARMAN: 5
6 Q. Do you recall when the 6
7 conversations occurred? 7
8 A. I don't. 8
9 Q. You don't have any 9
10 recollection of any of the players that 10
11 you had that general conversation with 11
12 or that were in that room or those 12
13 rooms? 13
14 A. I don't. I don't. 14
15 Q. Did you have a 15
16 recollection of those names of any of 16
17 those players before you left the room 17
18 to have a conversation with counsel? 18
19 MR. MALLIN: I'll object 19
20 to the form. 20
21 THE WITNESS: I didn't. 21
24 is going to be marked as Exhibit No. 24
25 10. 25
Page 275 Page 277

1 --- 1
5 --- 5
6 MR. MALLIN: Thanks. 6
7 BY MR. DEARMAN: 7
8 8
9 9
10 10
11 11
12 12
13 13
14 14
15 15
16 16
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20
21 21
22 22
23 23
24 24
25 25

612.338.3376
Page 278 Page 280

1 1
2 2
3 3
4 4
5 5
6 6
7 7
8 8
9 9
10 10
11 11
12 12
13 13
14 14
15 15
16 16
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20
21 21
22 22
23 23
24 24
25 25
Page 279 Page 281

1 1
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3 3
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6 6
7 7
8 8
9 9
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11 11
12 12
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15 15
16 16
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20
21 21
22 22
23 23
24 24
25 25

612.338.3376
Page 282 Page 284

1 1
2 2
3 3
4 4
5 5
6 6
7 7
8 8
9 9
10 10
11 11
12 12
13 13
14 14
15 15
16 16
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20
21 21
22 MR. MALLIN: Just for the 22
23 court reporter, the last two 23
24 documents especially would fall 24
25 under the protective order. I 25
Page 283 Page 285

1 know we did the transcript. We 1
2 are also going to do the 2
3 exhibit, too. 3
4 MR. DEARMAN: I would 4
5 certainly agree these are 5
6 confidential. 6
7 MR. MALLIN: Yeah, I 7
8 wouldn't think you guys would 8
9 want either of these players' 9
10 medical information or other 10
11 personal information out in 11
12 front of the public. 12
13 MR. DEARMAN: No. As to 13
14 ten and eleven, we agree that 14
15 they are confidential. 15
17 MR. DEARMAN: And I know 17
18 you are making the other 18
19 exhibits confidential, and we 19
20 can address that at a later 20
21 time. 21
22 MR. MALLIN: Please, that 22
23 would be fine. 23 BY MR. DEARMAN:
24 BY MR. DEARMAN: 24 Q. Okay. Moving on.
25 25 MR. MALLIN: Let's wait

612.338.3376
Page 286 Page 288

1 for a question. 1
2 THE WITNESS: I know. 2
3 MR. DEARMAN: Let's see if 3
4 I can find this document now, 4
5 concussion working group. Not 5
6 too bad. 6
7 Are we on number 12? I 7
8 believe we are. 8
9 --- 9
13 --- 13
15 Q. I show you what has been 15
16 marked as number 12. 16
19 Q. This is minutes of a 19
20 meeting of the board of governors of 20
21 the National Hockey League held at the 21
22 Inn at Spanish Bay, Pebble Beach, 22
23 California December 15 to 16, 2009. 23
24 Bates Nos. 209404 through 209416. 24
25 Have you ever received any 25
Page 287 Page 289

1 documents that talked about minutes of 1
2 a meeting from the Board of Governors 2
3 of the National Hockey League? 3
4 A. I have not. 4
5 5
6 6
7 7
8 8
9 9
10 10
11 11
12 12
13 13
14 14
15 15
16 16
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20
21 21
22 22
23 23
24 24
25 25

612.338.3376
Page 290 Page 292

1 1
2 2
3 3
4 4
5 5
6 6
7 7 Q. Do you know -- are you
8 8 familiar with a panel or committee
9 9 called the injury analysis panel or the
10 10 injury analysis committee?
11 11 A. I'm not.
12 12
13 Q. And do you have -- we'll 13
14 move on. 14
15 MR. DEARMAN: I need to 15
16 get this one out. One more. 16
18 18
19 19
20 20
21 21 Q. I'm going to show you what
22 22 is the conclusion of Exhibit No. 13,
23 23 and ask you to read it. It is short.
24 --- 24 You can read it to yourself.
25 (At this time a document 25 A. (Witness complied.)
Page 291 Page 293

3 --- 3
4 BY MR. DEARMAN: 4
5 Q. This is a document dated 5
6 -- that is Bates stamped range 19729 6
7 through 19758. Number 13. 7
8 MR. DEARMAN: There you 8
9 go. 9
12 12
13 13
14 14
15 15
16 16
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20
21 21
22 22
23 23
24 24
25 25

612.338.3376
Page 294 Page 296

1 1 Q. Okay.
2 Q. You will certainly agree 2 A. You are asking for an
3 that removal from play is the safest 3 opinion, and I don't have one.
4 way, if you are in doubt as to whether 4 Q. I'm asking for an opinion
5 a player is concussed, correct? 5 from a trainer who has been in the game
6 MR. MALLIN: Object to 6 since 1998.
7 form. 7 MR. MALLIN: He just told
8 THE WITNESS: Speaking 8 you he doesn't have one.
9 about what we do at the 9 BY MR. DEARMAN:
10 Philadelphia Flyers? 10 Q. Are you saying you don't
11 BY MR. DEARMAN: 11 have an opinion?
12 Q. Sure. 12 A. I am saying it is probably
13 A. That is what we do do. 13 better asked to an expert.
14 Q. Now, wherever you were a 14 Q. And I completely respect
15 trainer, wherever you happened to be, 15 what you are telling me, but I'm asking
16 if you were a trainer somewhere else, 16 you whether you have an opinion as to
17 isn't that what you would advocate as a 17 whether or not reducing the number of
18 trainer? 18 hits would make the game safer.
19 MR. MALLIN: Objection to 19 A. My answer again was no.
20 the form of the question. 20 Q. So irrespective -- why no?
21 BY MR. DEARMAN: 21 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Object to
22 Q. As a head athletic 22 form.
23 trainer? 23 BY MR. DEARMAN:
24 MR. MALLIN: Object to 24 Q. Why is your answer no?
25 form. 25 A. That I don't have an
Page 295 Page 297

1 THE WITNESS: That is 1 opinion.
2 another hypothetical question 2 Q. Oh, I'm sorry, is that
3 and -- 3 what you are saying, is that you just
4 BY MR. DEARMAN: 4 have no opinion, you are not providing
5 Q. Nobody likes my 5 an opinion?
6 hypotheticals. Anyway, I'm asking you 6 A. That was the question.
7 if you were a head trainer at any other 7 Q. Okay. To be clear, you
8 team, do you feel differently about 8 don't have an opinion whether or not
9 that statement? 9 the safest -- removal from play is the
10 MR. MALLIN: Object to 10 safest way to protect the player if you
11 form. 11 are in doubt about whether a player has
12 THE WITNESS: No, because 12 a concussion?
13 that is what our guidelines have 13 MR. BAUMGARTEN: That is a
14 established. 14 different question.
15 BY MR. DEARMAN: 15 THE WITNESS: Can I --
16 Q. From a trainer's point of 16 MR. DEARMAN: Let's read
17 view, your standpoint, would you agree 17 the question again, I'll read it
18 that reducing the number of hits to the 18 again. I'm restating the
19 head overall will make the game safer? 19 question.
20 MR. MALLIN: Object to 20 MR. BAUMGARTEN: I
21 form. 21 understand.
22 THE WITNESS: I think the 22 BY MR. DEARMAN:
23 question will probably be better 23 Q. So the question is, would
24 answered by the experts. 24 you agree that removal from play is
25 BY MR. DEARMAN: 25 safest for a player if you are in doubt

612.338.3376
Page 298 Page 300

1 about whether that player has a 1 BY MR. DEARMAN:
2 concussion? 2 Q. You've told me today that
3 MR. MALLIN: Object to 3 you really have two responsibilities or
4 form. 4 two goals. One of them is to reduce or
5 THE WITNESS: Just so I 5 minimize injury, and the second is if
6 have it right, I'm going to 6 they are injured, to rehab and get them
7 repeat it in my own mind, and 7 back on the ice, correct?
8 let me know if I'm on the same 8 A. No, I said care and
9 wavelength as you. You are 9 prevention of injuries are the primary
10 asking me, if we suspect the 10 goals of the athletic trainer.
11 player that may have sustained a 11 Q. Okay. And you are not --
12 head injury, the safest route is 12 you don't have an opinion as to whether
13 to remove that player from the 13 or not reducing the number of hits to
14 game and get them evaluated 14 the head would make -- would reduce or
15 properly by a physician. 15 minimize injury?
17 Q. Correct. 17 form.
18 A. My answer is yes. 18 THE WITNESS: No, because
19 Q. Okay. Would you agree 19 I don't -- because again, I
20 that reducing the number of hits to the 20 would have to put that in the
21 head would make the game safer overall 21 hands of the experts, because a
22 for players? 22 hit to the head -- a hit to the
23 MR. MALLIN: Object to 23 head I'm not an expert on. I
24 form. 24 know what a hit to the head is.
25 THE WITNESS: And I think 25 The magnitude of that hit, how
Page 299 Page 301

1 we answered this one, but I'll 1 they are studying that now is
2 answer it again, that I believe 2 far beyond my scope.
3 that is in better -- that 3 BY MR. DEARMAN:
4 question would be better 4 Q. One more question for you
5 answered by the experts about 5 then, and I'm going to take away hit to
6 multiple hits to the head, and 6 the head to fighting. Would you agree
7 again, you are asking for my 7 that -- I think we asked this before,
8 opinion about multiple hits to 8 but would you agree that reducing the
9 the head, and I don't have an 9 number of fights in the NHL would
10 opinion on that. 10 overall make the game safer?
12 Q. One of your roles as a 12 form.
13 trainer is to minimize injury, correct? 13 THE WITNESS: Again, there
14 A. Is to help minimize 14 is the competition committee who
15 injury. 15 looks at that. They are the
16 Q. And would you agree that 16 experts.
17 reducing the number of hits to the head 17 BY MR. DEARMAN:
18 with help reduce or minimize injury? 18 Q. I'm asking somebody who
19 MR. MALLIN: Object to the 19 has --
20 form. 20 A. You are asking my opinion.
21 THE WITNESS: Again, I 21 Q. Yes.
22 would say that's probably better 22 A. And I'm asking you that --
23 off to the people that studied 23 to go to the experts on that, that I
24 it and are the experts in the 24 don't have an opinion on fighting in
25 field to answer that question. 25 the game.

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1 Q. You don't -- with all due 1 answer than myself giving you an
2 respect, sir, I appreciate you wanting 2 answer for this one.
3 to send me to a doctor or somebody else 3 BY MR. DEARMAN:
4 to get an opinion, but notwithstanding 4 Q. Is getting punched in the
5 that, I only am interested in whether 5 face harmful to a human?
6 you have an opinion on that. 6 MR. MALLIN: Object to
7 MR. MALLIN: He just told 7 form.
8 you he doesn't. 8 THE WITNESS: Again, I
9 BY MR. DEARMAN: 9 think going back to the original
10 Q. That is correct, you do 10 statement, any time a human
11 not? 11 takes a blow, there could be a
12 A. Correct. 12 risk, it doesn't matter where it
13 Q. Is getting hit in the head 13 be.
14 healthy for a human, any kind of hit? 14 BY MR. DEARMAN:
15 MR. MALLIN: Object to 15 Q. Is getting punched in the
16 form. 16 head or face twice more harmful than
17 BY MR. DEARMAN: 17 getting hit once?
18 Q. Getting hit in the head, 18 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
19 is that healthy for a human? 19 form.
20 MR. MALLIN: Same 20 THE WITNESS: I've never
21 objection. 21 studied it. Again, going back
22 THE WITNESS: No. No, I 22 to you should really be asking
23 would say getting hit anywhere 23 the experts who do study this.
24 is not healthy for a human. 24 BY MR. DEARMAN:
25 BY MR. DEARMAN: 25 Q. Do you have an opinion?
Page 303 Page 305

1 Q. And you would then agree 1 A. I don't have an opinion.
2 that getting hit in the head is not 2 Q. Do you know whether or not
3 healthy for a human, by necessity, in 3 it is true that when a player -- after
4 your answer? 4 his first concussion, he is three times
5 A. Yes. 5 more likely to get a second concussion,
6 Q. Is getting hit in the head 6 do you know if that is true?
7 harmful to a human? 7 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
8 MR. MALLIN: Object to 8 form.
9 form. 9 THE WITNESS: Do I know
10 THE WITNESS: Again, I 10 that it is true?
11 would have to ask for more 11 BY MR. DEARMAN:
12 detail on that. 12 Q. Yes, that is the question.
13 BY MR. DEARMAN: 13 A. I don't know if that is
14 Q. What additional detail 14 true.
15 would you like about my question, is 15 Q. Do you know who Dr. John
16 getting hit in the head harmful to a 16 Powell is?
17 human being? 17 A. I don't.
18 MR. MALLIN: Object to 18 MR. DEARMAN: Can we take
19 form. 19 one last break?
20 THE WITNESS: The 20 MR. MALLIN: Sure.
21 magnitude. Again, not being an 21 VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the
22 expert, I don't really have 22 record at 3:37 p.m.
23 that. I'm sure there is 23 ---
24 information that the experts 24 (At this time a short
25 would need to better give you an 25 break was taken.)

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1 --- 1 players that played tough.
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins 2 BY MR. DEARMAN:
3 DVD number four. The time is 3 Q. And can you name any of
4 3:46 p.m. Back on the record. 4 those players? I assume there is no
5 BY MR. DEARMAN: 5 privilege.
6 Q. Are you familiar with the 6 MR. DEARMAN: That was a
7 term, enforcer? 7 joke?
8 A. Yes. 8 MR. MALLIN: I took it
9 Q. And what is an enforcer? 9 that way.
10 A. My understanding in the 10 MR. DEARMAN: Okay.
11 earlier days of hockey, it's somebody 11 THE WITNESS: In '98, '99?
12 that went out and fought. 12 BY MR. DEARMAN:
13 Q. Fought other players? 13 Q. Any time.
14 A. Yes. 14 A. I'm just trying to think
15 Q. And when you say, the 15 here.
16 earlier days, what are you referring 16 Q. I appreciate you doing so.
17 to? 17 A. I mean, I'm trying to --
18 A. Before I entered the 18 you know, anybody that played tough, I
19 league. 19 mean, Ian Laperriere, but -- I think he
20 Q. Are you aware of whether 20 was a good, tough player.
21 or not there were any enforcers after 21 Q. And do you believe he was
22 you entered the league, which was about 22 considered an enforcer?
23 1998, I think? 23 A. No.
24 A. I'm sure teams had them. 24 Q. Have ever heard the
25 Q. Did the Flyers have any? 25 term -- other terms to describe
Page 307 Page 309

1 A. I'm just trying to think 1 enforcers?
2 here, so forgive me for the pause. 2 A. Such as?
3 Q. No, no problem. 3 Q. You tell me.
4 A. I don't know if they would 4 A. No.
5 be classified as enforcers, but we had 5 Q. Did you ever hear the
6 players that played tough. 6 term, goon?
7 Q. Played tough and fought, 7 A. I've heard of the term
8 correct? 8 goon.
9 A. Well, I can't say the 9 Q. Referred to as an
10 players that played tough fought all 10 enforcer?
11 the time, but my definition of tough is 11 A. Yeah, I did.
12 that you were not afraid to go into the 12
13 corners, you played hard along the 13
14 boards, you did your job, you blocked 14
15 shots, you did all the things that you 15
16 have to take to do -- to win a hockey 16
17 game. 17
18 Q. And just to be clear, are 18
19 you saying that since '98 there have 19
20 been enforcers on the Flyers? 20
22 form. 22
23 THE WITNESS: I don't know 23
24 how they were classified, to be 24
25 the honest with you. We had 25

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Page 310 Page 312

1 1 doubt that you would have told him
2 2 that?
3 3 MR. MALLIN: Well, let me
4 4 object to the form of the
5 --- 5 question.
6 (At this time a document 6 THE WITNESS: Again, I
7 was marked for identification as 7 can't recall that I spoke with
8 Exhibit No. P-14.) 8 Dan. Obviously it is here, but
9 --- 9 I can't recall.
11 Q. The next number is number 11 Q. Do you know Dan?
12 14. Are you familiar with the 12 A. I don't.
13 Washington Post, sir? 13
14 MR. MALLIN: Let's take a 14
15 look at the exhibit before we 15
16 start asking questions about it. 16
17 MR. DEARMAN: 17
18 Unfortunately, I can only give 18
19 you two. 19
20 MR. MALLIN: That's all 20
21 right. 21
22 MR. DEARMAN: Saving 22
23 trees. Here, I can give you 23
24 three. 24
25 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Number 25
Page 311 Page 313

1 14? 1
2 MR. DEARMAN: Yes, number 2
3 14. 3
4 BY MR. DEARMAN: 4
5 Q. Sir, did you tell Dan 5
6 Gelston of the Washington Post back in 6
7 September of 2006 that you couldn't 7
8 live with the consequences if Primeau 8
9 took one more blow to the head? 9
10 MR. MALLIN: Just so I'm 10
11 clear, you are asking this 11
12 witness whether he had a 12
13 conversation with the author of 13
14 this particular piece that may 14
15 have appeared in the Washington 15
16 Post, you are not asking him 16 MR. DEARMAN: Let's look
17 whether or not he spoke to Mr. 17 at Exhibit No. 15, then.
18 Primeau about that issue, 18 ---
19 correct? 19 (At this time a document
20 MR. DEARMAN: That's 20 was marked for identification as
21 correct. 21 Exhibit No. P-15.)
22 THE WITNESS: I can't 22 ---
23 recall speaking with Dan. 23 (At this time, a
24 BY MR. DEARMAN: 24 discussion was held off the
25 Q. Do you have any reason to 25 record.)

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Page 314 Page 316

1 --- 1 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Why don't
2 BY MR. DEARMAN: 2 we just take 30 seconds?
3 Q. This is marked number 15. 3 VIDEOGRAPHER: 3:59 p.m.,
4 This is an October 31st, 2005 article 4 off the record.
5 that says Primeau has a concussion, 5 ---
6 looks like it is -- it is an interview 6 (At this time, a
7 between you and the Philadelphia 7 discussion was held off the
8 Inquirer beat writer Tim Panaccio. I'm 8 record.)
9 not sure if I'm saying that right. 9 ---
10 A. Panaccio. 10 VIDEOGRAPHER: 4:02 p.m.,
11 Q. Panaccio. There are some 11 back on the record.
12 quotation marks in this one, so after 12 MR. DEARMAN: Were you
13 you have had a chance to take a look at 13 continuing, Madam Reporter, to
14 it, I have some questions for you. 14 make a record of the discussion?
15 Are you ready for me to 15 Just so the record is
16 ask you questions? 16 clear, Exhibit No. 15 was
17 A. Give me one more moment, 17 provided to defense counsel
18 please. 18 prior to the depo.
19 Q. Yeah, no problem. 19 MR. MALLIN: Just so the
20 A. Okay. 20 record is clear, we did get it.
21 Q. So Tim asked you whether 21 MR. DEARMAN: Thank you
22 or not Keith Primeau suffered a 22 very much.
23 concussion, and you responded yes, it 23 BY MR. DEARMAN:
24 is. Do you recall doing that? 24 Q. So I was asking you about
25 MR. MALLIN: Are you 25 whether you placed a grade on it, and
Page 315 Page 317

1 asking him whether or not these 1 you provided a response to him.
2 are his statements in this 2 MR. MALLIN: Here is the
3 document? 3 question I have about this,
4 MR. DEARMAN: I'm asking 4 Counsel.
5 him whether he told Tim that he 5 MR. DEARMAN: Yes.
6 was confirming that Keith was 6 MR. MALLIN: This witness
7 concussed. 7 had already testified he doesn't
8 THE WITNESS: I don't 8 recall such an interview with
9 recall the interview. 9 this particular person, so the
10 BY MR. DEARMAN: 10 problem with your question is a
11 Q. Do you have any reason to 11 lack of foundation. Why don't
12 believe that you did not tell Keith? 12 you ask more questions about
13 A. I don't. 13 that issue before you go into
14 Q. He asked you if you placed 14 the content of it? Otherwise,
15 a grade on it, you talked about whether 15 I'm going to instruct him that
16 or not you placed a grade on it, 16 absent a memory of having this
17 correct? 17 conversation, I am not going to
18 MR. MALLIN: Objection to 18 allow him to talk about anything
19 the form. 19 contained in the document with
20 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Guys, was 20 regard to personal medical
21 this among the documents that 21 information.
22 you distributed in advance of 22 MR. DEARMAN: It is my
23 the deposition? 23 position that it is sufficient
24 MR. DEARMAN: I sure 24 that I have a document that was
25 believe so. I sure believe so. 25 put into public domain which

612.338.3376
Page 318 Page 320

1 contains quotations from Mr. 1 me to get the judge on the
2 McCrossin, which although he 2 phone?
3 does not recall making, he 3 MR. DEARMAN: No, I don't.
4 doesn't have a reason to believe 4 I think we are going to have
5 that he didn't make. 5 this issue with all of these.
6 And so if that is not 6 MR. MALLIN: My
7 sufficient for you, I guess we 7 understanding is that this issue
8 have two options now. We either 8 was addressed with your
9 get the judge on the phone, 9 co-counsel, and he knew full
10 because she has already 10 well coming into this deposition
11 indicated that if it is public 11 that this would be an issue with
12 domain, it can be discussed, or 12 respect to individual players.
13 you can stick with your 13 You have been on notice of it.
14 objections, and in light of the 14 MR. DEARMAN: I was aware
15 fact that I have got a funeral 15 of that, but I was also aware
16 to go to now that I didn't know 16 that if it was in the public
17 I had before this depo started, 17 domain, that that was an
18 we can just -- I'm going to 18 exception to the position. I
19 certify every objection you made 19 understand your point. I
20 with regards to privilege, and 20 understand your point. If the
21 if we have to readdress it and 21 judge says we have to depose the
22 bring the witness back for that 22 guy who did the interview, we'll
23 limited issue, that is what 23 depose the guy that did the
24 we'll do. 24 interview. Whatever the judge
25 MR. MALLIN: Well, here is 25 says we will have to do, we'll
Page 319 Page 321

1 what I have to say to that. 1 do. I just don't see the
2 First, we are obviously very 2 utility of getting her on the
3 sorry about the death in your 3 phone now, and it just doesn't
4 family. 4 make any sense because there are
5 MR. DEARMAN: I know you 5 several of these issues that are
6 are. 6 going to require some sort of a
7 MR. MALLIN: Second, we do 7 review or examination.
8 not have Mr. Panaccio here to 8 If you object to that and
9 authenticate whatever appears 9 you want me to get the judge on
10 before us, whether it is or is 10 the phone to try to resolve them
11 not in the public domain. This 11 today --
12 witness has already testified he 12 MR. MALLIN: No. I think
13 does not recall any such 13 the best thing to do is to
14 interview by Mr. Panaccio, and 14 address it with the judge at the
15 whether or not he does or does 15 appropriate time. Doing it
16 not recall it, the privilege 16 today does not necessarily serve
17 with respect to the medical 17 any purpose.
18 issue belongs to the players 18 Chris, you may have a
19 themselves, and only the players 19 different view. Obviously, the
20 themselves can waive that 20 party is here, the NHL, they may
21 privilege, and so as a result of 21 have a different view, but I'll
22 which I'm going to instruct this 22 leave it to them.
23 witness not to answer the 23 MR. SCHMIDT: The only
24 questions. 24 thing I'll say is Mr. Grizel and
25 MR. DAVIDSON: Do you want 25 I discussed this issue ahead of

612.338.3376
Page 322 Page 324

1 time. He documented that we 1
2 were not going to allow Mr. 2
3 McCrossin to talk about any 3
4 player's specific medical care 4
5 without a signed authorization, 5
6 and I believe the judge was 6
7 discussing the production of 7
8 documents in the public domain 8
9 and not in the context of 9
10 deposition, but we can raise 10
11 that at any point. Clearly, 11
12 this is something you have from 12
13 a document. You can talk to Mr. 13
14 Primeau, you can talk to the 14
15 court reporter, anybody else. 15
16 We just need to make sure Mr. 16
17 McCrossin does not violate Mr. 17
18 Primeau's rights. 18
19 MR. DEARMAN: I completely 19
20 understand your position. I 20
21 think we -- 21
22 MR. MALLIN: All right. 22
23 MR. DEARMAN: So that will 23
24 save questions on the rest -- a 24
25 lot of these articles, but 25
Page 323 Page 325

1 continuing. 1
2 2
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25 25

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Page 326 Page 328

1 1 BY MR. DEARMAN:
2 MR. DEARMAN: Well, I 2 Q. Going back for a second to
3 guess for purposes of the 3 number 15, which is the interview with
4 record, then, let's just 4 Tim, you've indicated you have no
5 indicate the article that I 5 reason to believe that you didn't give
6 wanted to discuss, so we have 6 this interview, correct?
7 something concrete to discuss -- 7 A. Correct.
8 I don't know what numbers they 8 Q. And if you did give this
9 are on your list, but one of 9 interview, would you have obtained
10 them is Four Major Concussions 10 Keith's consent to do so, to talk about
11 for the Philadelphia Flyers. 11 this information?
12 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Why don't 12 MR. MALLIN: Object to the
13 we mark them as exhibits. 13 form.
14 MR. DEARMAN: That is a 14 THE WITNESS: Anytime we
15 great idea. Thank you. Number 15 discuss, we have been given
16 15, which is the four major 16 permission by the team or by the
17 concussions for the Flyers. 17 player first before we can
18 MR. BAUMGARTEN: We are up 18 disclose any information.
19 to 16. 19 BY MR. DEARMAN:
20 MR. DEARMAN: We are, 20 Q. So if you gave that
21 thank you. That is number 16. 21 interview, as it is indicated in the
22 Number 17 is the Former Flyers 22 document, you would have gotten
23 Primeau Talks About His Decision 23 permission from Keith and the team?
24 to Donate His Brain. 24 A. Yes.
25 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Maybe 25 Q. Would that information be
Page 327 Page 329

1 just hand them out one by one so 1 documented someplace, and if so, where?
2 we can make sure we have them 2 A. I can't recall.
3 one. 3 MR. BAUMGARTEN: Just so
4 MR. MALLIN: Copies? 4 I'm clear, I have Exhibit-18,
5 MR. DAVIDSON: Are you 5 there is an e-mail that is
6 giving them copies? 6 attached to it, is that --
7 MR. DEARMAN: No, I'm not, 7 MR. DEARMAN: That is not
8 but here you go. I will. This 8 the e-mail, just the article.
9 is number 17. 9 Give me back the e-mail, thank
10 MR. MALLIN: Thanks. 17. 10 you. You are lucky, I have a
11 MR. DEARMAN: This is 11 number 19 for you. Here is
12 number 16. 12 number 19, which is the
13 MR. MALLIN: Thanks. 13 Postconcussion Symptoms Force
14 MR. DEARMAN: Last one is 14 Flyers Primeau to Retire, dated
15 -- what number is that? 15 September 15, 2006.
16 MR. MALLIN: Seventeen, so 16 ---
17 this will be 18. 17 (At this time documents
18 MR. DEARMAN: This will be 18 were marked for identification
19 18. 19 as Exhibits Nos. P-19 and P-20.)
20 --- 20 ---
21 (At this time documents 21 BY MR. DEARMAN:
22 were marked for identification 22
23 as Exhibits Nos. P-16 through 23
24 P-18.) 24
25 --- 25

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1 1 ---
2 2 ERRATA SHEET
3 MR. DEARMAN: I don't have 3 ---
4 anything else at this time. 4 PAGE LINE CHANGE
5 MR. BAUMGARTEN: No 5 ____ ____ ___________________
6 questions. 6 ____ ____ ___________________
7 MR. MALLIN: We'll read. 7 ____ ____ ___________________
8 VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by, 8 ____ ____ ___________________
9 please. The time is 4:19 p.m., 9 ____ ____ ___________________
10 and this ends DVD number four 10 ____ ____ ___________________
11 and today's deposition. We are 11 ____ ____ ___________________
12 off the record. 12 ____ ____ ___________________
13 --- 13 ____ ____ ___________________
14 (Whereupon, the deposition 14 ____ ____ ___________________
15 concluded at approximately 4:19 15 ____ ____ ___________________
16 p.m.) 16 ____ ____ ___________________
17 --- 17 ____ ____ ___________________
18 18 ____ ____ ___________________
19 19 ____ ____ ___________________
20 20 ____ ____ ___________________
21 21 ____ ____ ___________________
22 22 ____ ____ ___________________
23 23
24 24
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Page 335 Page 337

1 INSTRUCTIONS TO WITNESS 1 ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF DEPONENT
2 2 I, _________________________ ,
3 Please read your 3 do hereby certify that I have read the
4 deposition over carefully and make any 4 foregoing pages, and that the same is a
5 necessary corrections. You should 5 correct transcription of the answers
6 state the reason in the appropriate 6 given by me to the questions therein
7 space on the errata sheet for any 7 propounded, except for the corrections
8 corrections that are made. 8 or changes in form or substance, if
9 After doing so, please 9 any, noted in the attached errata
10 sign the errata sheet and date it. 10 sheet.
11 You are signing same 11
12 subject to the changes you have noted 12
13 on the errata sheet, which will be 13 _________ ________________________
14 attached to your deposition. 14 DATE SIGNATURE
15 It is imperative that you 15
16 return the original errata sheet to the 16
17 deposing attorney within thirty (30) 17 Subscribed and sworn to before me.
18 days of receipt of the deposition 18 My commission expires: __________
19 transcript by you. If you fail to do 19
20 so, the deposition transcript may be 20
21 deemed to be accurate and may be used 21
22 in court. 22 ________________
23 23 Notary Public
24 24
25 25

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Page 338
1 CERTIFICATION
2
3 I, Kathleen Ruccolo,
4 Professional Reporter and Notary
5 Public, do hereby certify that the
6 foregoing is a true and accurate
7 transcript of the stenographic
8 notes taken by me in the
9 aforementioned matter.
10
11 ---
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
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20
21
22
23 DATE: _____________________
24 KATHLEEN RUCCOLO
25

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146:22 administer 43:4 189:7 295:24 Arch 1:15 6:14 333:16
238:19 56:14 80:4,5 allow 69:24 299:1,5 area 63:16 asking 8:9 9:17
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abstract 33:5 80:2 86:12 2:18 177:19 185:8 126:20 123:5 129:17
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abuse 28:5,19 59:5 amount 40:23 194:8 234:14 arthritis 131:9 138:15
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access 41:7 advises 74:23 332:12,16,20 325:16 38:8 40:12 154:20
accurate advocate 333:19 anytime 19:1 41:2,3 164:23 165:3
219:13 294:17 analysis 3:15 55:3 230:6 135:16 168:5 173:20
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acknowledged 107:2 203:15 328:14 139:5 149:19 189:2 191:23
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ACKNOWLED... 338:9 analyzed 252:4 139:6,7 180:18 221:25 228:6
337:1 afraid 307:12 answer 5:5 153:19 154:5 182:17 183:6 229:12,14,16
acronym 183:2 age 21:16 8:21 12:21 154:21 184:14 185:9 235:15
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activities agency 89:12 63:20 72:12 160:9 191:21 248:6 250:19
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activity 187:7,8 77:24,24 146:17 147:4 appeared articles 37:22 296:2,4,15
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added 55:21 190:2 282:3 177:10 179:7 applied 133:10 98:24 99:8 332:5 333:13
56:1,8 58:16 283:5,14 192:12 226:5 apply 120:17 100:9 111:2 asks 276:13,24
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79:11 298:19 271:8 272:6 302:2 308:16 165:22 178:7 assessing
adding 61:10 299:16 301:6 279:22 appreciated 179:24 216:18
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18:8 20:6,13 36:10,15 84:13 116:18,19 65:10,18 315:20 316:1

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118:8,11,15 49:10,17,23 author 311:13 146:13 88:10,19,21 BCC 223:5
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122:3 124:25 52:1 53:14 322:5 152:10 90:1,7,11,18 bearing 254:24
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203:18 102:7,11,16 29:17 163:15 93:15 94:2,3 beating 265:8
209:17 213:6 102:20,24 average 69:11 164:16 165:5 baselines 92:1 beginning
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28:25 110:1 124:25 avoid 9:2 187:6,15,19 basis 18:20 200:20 306:2
121:6 129:8 125:10,18 270:13 190:20 40:3 115:13 behalf 6:20,25
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167:23 167:7,11 128:4,7 209:16 Bates 180:24 Belak 324:14
association 168:10 170:5 129:1 130:11 211:18 181:3 221:3 324:16
26:1,7 29:3,6 170:8,12 130:24 212:19 231:23 belief 55:14
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187:24 195:2 178:4 184:15 210:16,17 223:15 286:24 287:6 97:22 99:8
associations 187:19,23 220:12 231:8 224:18 228:2 291:6 329:24 100:7,24
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173:20 206:11,12 254:16 257:4 229:17,21 Baumgarten 117:18
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255:3 308:4 244:5 246:3 261:16,22,25 245:10 15:7,22,25 124:3 132:10
assuming 250:23 262:2,3,4,6 247:10,14 62:23 67:2 136:13
146:1 238:5 252:12 291:12,25 258:13 72:3 74:12 147:14,23
assumption 253:24 306:20 273:22,25 87:5 95:8,17 183:4 194:24
146:2 313:11 287:17 320:14,15 300:7 304:9 97:2 98:13 196:1 215:4
asthma 54:15 294:22 323:3,17 304:21 306:4 98:25 104:3 221:20
athlete 24:4 300:10 324:20 311:6 316:11 107:4 109:15 222:10
49:16 164:10 atrocious 325:13 318:22 110:9 114:13 224:10 225:3
165:10 233:11 awareness 325:12 328:2 121:22 122:9 225:12
167:21 234:17 164:8,11 329:9 128:17 228:13
182:23 attached 133:8 165:8 167:19 bad 286:6 131:24 239:14
183:14 329:6 335:14 167:22 balance 79:12 134:12,16 248:25
athlete's 337:9 170:21 bar 331:22,23 143:18 152:1 249:17
164:11 attachment 332:1,3,6,14 159:13,20,24 250:10 253:4
167:22 242:15 248:2 B 332:19,22 165:12,22 269:4 271:16
athletes attempting B 3:8 4:2 333:14,18 167:15 271:18 280:4
127:23 128:1 146:21 192:3 back 14:22 Barile 243:11 168:11 282:12 286:8
137:12 192:4 23:14 53:13 barked 223:13 171:23 299:2 308:21
138:16 attend 28:1 58:19 63:15 224:16 174:12 176:7 315:12,25,25
164:18 attended 63:17 68:5 base 168:19,19 177:7 178:1 318:4 322:6
170:19 156:10 72:18,21 based 64:13 182:9 185:16 324:18 328:5
171:10,20 attention 73:22 75:12 70:13,14,15 189:4 191:3 believed
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174:11 246:6 attorney 83:2 89:16 92:9 182:22 190:5 206:16 believes
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17:24 18:5,8 335:17 96:15 97:5 265:20 226:20 bell 181:11
18:19,23 attorney's 98:10 99:17 baseline 56:9 227:25 237:7 223:19,24
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25:16,19 attorneys 110:16 59:16 61:11 258:5 296:21 183:10
26:1,4 28:9 10:17 12:3 114:21,25 62:8,11,19,21 297:13,20 belonged
28:10 36:4 14:24 15:4 115:8,24 63:2,9 64:7 310:25 162:22

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belongs 319:18 233:19 bring 46:8 53:15 116:17 26:15 27:14 clarity 56:17
bench 23:12,17 286:20 287:2 56:20 57:5 129:25 170:12 57:5 77:12
205:3,5,8,14 boards 188:18 208:4,5,11 170:13 certify 318:19 249:9
205:15,16,18 188:25 189:9 212:18 190:17 337:3 338:5 Clark 18:13
209:21 189:16 214:12 215:9 204:21 CEU 27:10 19:4
211:18,20 307:14 215:10 214:15,15,19 CEU's 27:6 Clark's 18:14
223:13 Bob 18:13 19:4 245:24,24 214:20 28:9,15,16 classified
224:16 19:13 250:22 252:20,22 29:8 307:5,24
benefit 37:22 Boca 2:5 253:21 300:8 322:4 Chain 3:16,19 classifies 61:4
289:24 body 24:10 318:22 career 77:11 chaired 243:3 Claude 330:12
Benson 292:5 55:5,11 bringing 58:4 77:20 107:17 chance 314:13 331:18,21
best 9:11 13:19 bolts 49:20 Broadway 2:10 careful 69:23 change 18:25 332:3,8,13,18
13:23 99:25 bone 276:14 broke 332:4 220:6 59:2 200:12 333:16,17,20
116:13,16,16 Boogaard brother 150:10 carefully 335:4 207:2 209:7 clean 250:4
196:10 325:2 151:20 Carl 135:8,21 237:20,22 clear 8:19 9:1
252:18 book 33:2 37:9 brothers 151:2 136:4 137:2 238:10 336:4 15:19 21:2
321:13 45:24 239:20 143:11 changed 22:23 31:24 83:6
333:10 Bostic 83:1 brought 56:13 149:10,13 63:3,5 68:7 92:16 99:17
better 35:1 bottom 181:4 57:7 59:4 150:2 196:20 100:16 129:5
62:20 157:21 182:7 233:3 214:23 case 205:9 207:16 209:5 138:14 147:6
191:11 248:8 260:6 253:20 217:10 236:6 154:18
252:15 bout 40:25 bruise 133:11 278:21 changes 112:9 176:22 187:6
253:25 box 35:8 BRYAN 2:8 279:19 335:12 337:8 236:16 241:1
262:13 boxers 127:24 bullet 203:4 casual 263:4 Charles 130:18 297:7 307:18
263:12,13 129:12 254:25 cat-and-mou... charts 47:3 309:19
278:19 boxes 126:2,13 Burke 130:13 146:20 49:7 311:11
279:17,18 boxing 127:22 130:18,21,22 catching chats 41:8 316:16,20
280:10 290:8 128:2 129:3 130:23 133:1 223:17 check 191:15 329:4
295:23 129:25 130:2 133:5 134:21 causal 260:25 checked 46:16 clearance
296:13 299:3 132:16 133:6 243:4 262:7 Chester 21:24 230:3
299:4,22 134:2,10 bush 265:9 cause 191:14 chicken 46:10 cleared 99:18
303:25 135:3 231:1 238:18 child 28:4,19 99:24,25
Bettman boys 58:9 C 261:11 Chip 130:21,22 100:8 101:5
196:13 brain 133:11 C 338:1,1 caused 172:11 243:4 187:11
242:14 137:7 139:6 California causes 133:5 choice 196:7 clearly 269:25
Bettman's 259:22 261:6 286:23 133:10 206:25 322:11
197:8 261:18,18 call 96:20 261:12 214:18 clears 101:10
beyond 78:24 262:8,24 207:18 caution 70:4 chondral clerks 268:25
254:3 301:2 323:4,19 236:20 88:4 91:1 112:19 269:3
Bill 243:6 260:6 325:18 289:21 108:4 119:8 Chris 7:8 10:14 clients 154:16
260:7,16,17 326:24 331:20 150:18 220:6 11:9,11 clinical 170:24
bit 27:4 70:11 brain's 137:8 called 29:4 220:13 256:8 231:25 233:3 clinician 38:5
83:18 180:3 break 9:15,18 30:14 213:22 325:21 233:4 321:18 clinicians
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222:6 238:18 258:6 221:13 222:9 267:24 269:2 Cjschmidt@b... 137:5 330:24
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222:12 273:14,19 330:22 332:5 324:23 claiming 284:6
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blocked 307:14 Brendan 333:23 165:18 332:9 281:19
blood 46:22 221:11,19 candid 117:2 167:12 clarification co-counsel
blow 133:4,4 222:15 223:4 capable 105:18 171:12 283:5 22:16 27:4 320:9
156:3 304:11 Brendan's captioned 1:17 294:2 58:2 76:25 coach 17:22,25
309:21 311:9 222:19 cardiac 43:8,14 certification 87:8 115:18 18:6 20:8,14
312:16 Brett 149:11 43:21 25:25 26:5 180:3,9 23:2,7 24:3
331:18,19 Brian 16:2 cardiology certifications 202:2 203:19 27:17 28:7
blows 261:10 292:4 169:7 25:23 26:14 clarify 65:15 30:11 31:3
330:25 brick 21:13 cardiovascular 26:21 33:20 82:17 94:10 33:13,19
331:13 Bridging 24:7 certified 25:20 100:14 104:6 35:21 41:23
board 25:24 170:23 care 24:19 52:2 25:24 26:4,9 110:14 210:9 42:9,14

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43:17,19 25:4 150:20 41:2 121:24 168:23 consequences 235:10 241:2

45:10 47:13 152:18,21 134:9 261:2 170:16,18 309:20 311:8 241:5,9,14
203:20 204:7 234:22 235:3 292:22 171:1,9,20 312:15 263:5 264:24
217:24 218:6 325:16,23 293:17 172:8,11 Consequently 265:2 267:21
218:8,23 comp 83:1,22 concrete 326:7 174:3,10 261:11 268:1,6
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coach's 217:12 compare 88:11 71:23 92:25 178:14 309:15 272:13,22
217:17 compared 100:4 199:7 199:13,22 considered 273:6,11
coaches 29:1 147:1 159:2 233:12 201:13 202:8 196:21 274:11,18
268:23,24 comparing 234:17 293:7 202:19 230:9 308:22 311:13
coauthor 40:10 24:14 294:5 315:7 231:2 246:10 consist 216:7 312:14
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222:8,10,11 129:2 130:11 6:17 91:21 288:14 131:6 323:25
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233:3,4 164:10 99:13 133:25 293:9 326:10 243:7 10:24 82:16
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college 21:17 167:21 163:2,15 concussive 188:17 113:3 118:13
come 23:18 194:25 164:12,18 170:13 213:18 264:4 118:22 119:1
27:23 37:12 301:14 167:24 169:6 conditioner contacts 46:2 152:25
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45:3 53:13 322:19 219:5,17 26:6,7,25 322:9 272:11 274:7
89:21 191:13 complex 293:9 235:21 236:3 27:15 28:23 continue 70:22 325:9
216:18 complied 240:6 242:17 29:1,3,6 110:23 216:3 converse
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238:22 component 244:14,19,23 31:3 33:13 continued 27:1 convey 40:4
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240:23 composed 245:19 35:20 41:23 continuing 168:25 169:2
coming 115:23 195:1 247:19 248:3 42:8,14 45:9 26:19 27:10 169:16
320:10 compounding 248:13 47:13 125:12 27:13 108:15 176:15
commencing 135:13 250:15,20 125:19,25 108:24 112:8 conveyed
1:16 136:17 251:12 253:9 126:4 203:20 316:13 323:1 123:12,21,23
comments 41:9 computer 67:7 254:17 255:4 204:7 contradiction 124:4 167:1
41:12 49:24 68:22 277:10,19 conduct 59:13 182:21 167:12 168:8
commission computerized 278:16 279:3 conducted contributing copies 327:4,6
337:18 64:6 86:24 284:24 286:5 59:16 231:1 233:12 copy 39:3
committee comrades 287:8 290:19 conducting 234:16 281:11,12
130:19 119:16 290:20 59:15 contusion core 80:12
194:25 conceded 291:14 confidential 204:13 corner 181:4
210:22 259:21 297:12 298:2 1:9 15:11 conversation 182:7
213:25 214:7 concedes 305:4,5 283:6,15,19 8:24 109:22 corners 307:13
214:12 292:8 255:15 314:5,23 confirming 110:25 113:7 correct 14:15
292:10 257:15 concussion-li... 315:6 119:6 120:20 36:13 45:7
301:14 concern 96:16 223:12 confuse 115:1 122:4 145:4 45:11 48:17
committees 97:24 117:8 concussions confused 57:19 145:14,18 48:18 49:3,7
198:1,4 184:9 46:11 54:20 95:24 146:5 147:9 53:12 55:17
235:13,16,19 concerned 87:4 55:3 56:10 confusion 147:23 55:22 68:22
235:24 94:22 95:3 89:9 102:5 57:24 148:15 150:9 68:23,25
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1:20 97:7 98:8 133:22 134:1 192:21 154:6,10 80:19 85:1,2
communicate 99:10 117:10 134:10 137:4 connect 146:21 174:2 175:20 87:3 89:23
102:12 103:8 225:22 137:12 265:18 175:24 93:16,20
105:19 106:9 226:13 227:2 138:17 conscious 179:15,20 94:16,17
240:8 227:10 144:20 212:12 180:13,20 95:20 96:4
communicati... concerns 148:18 consciousness 217:23 96:11,12,16
103:3 105:9 270:14 158:24 159:4 212:22 238:6 226:12,17,24 98:16 99:15
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234:14 334:15 161:5,19 consequence 227:17 228:7 101:12
communicati... conclusion 167:25 203:1 228:9,10 105:11 109:1

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116:25 117:4 274:18 260:6,7,16 52:22 62:17 162:13 258:2,15

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120:21 123:8 counsel's Dan 282:19,20 66:3,17 67:5 165:3,14,25 261:23
123:23 323:10 282:21 311:5 68:16 70:10 166:12 167:9 262:19
124:17 125:1 country 50:9 311:23 312:8 70:25 71:14 167:17 263:14 264:6
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135:17 139:3 70:23 165:9 167:20 74:14 75:8 171:16 172:3 270:8,15,23
147:14 courses 27:6 date 1:18 6:11 76:3,13,21 173:12 271:9,17,24
149:11,14 28:1,3 19:13 86:21 81:12 82:9 174:18 175:1 272:8,19
151:6,7 coursework 104:22 83:5,9 84:10 175:2,16 274:5,22
154:24 29:18 145:21 86:4 87:16 176:12,20 275:7 276:1
158:16,17 court 1:1 6:10 159:16 88:14 89:6 177:9 178:3 276:8 277:22
160:2 162:19 7:18 8:17 175:18 215:6 91:23 92:5 178:19,25 278:4 280:21
162:20,22 72:20 75:1 255:7 264:10 92:12 94:8 179:5 180:11 281:9,24
163:2,20 75:11 92:8 276:23 277:3 95:10,19 181:9 182:11 282:10 283:4
165:21 166:2 115:7 146:12 335:10 97:4 98:15 182:12 184:1 283:13,17,24
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167:14 273:24 338:23 99:14 100:18 186:8,16 285:8,16,23
171:13 179:2 282:23 dated 132:6 104:8,18 188:12,24 286:3,14,18
179:11 183:3 322:15 135:16 107:6 108:22 189:13,24 289:3,9,18
184:4,9,10,23 335:22 157:10 109:12,18 191:5,16 290:10,15,17
185:23 cover 23:16 160:21 223:3 110:11 192:20 291:4,8,11,22
208:16 38:19,19 231:24 275:9 111:23 114:6 193:15 194:7 293:16,21
209:19 159:21 275:16 114:9,15,18 194:16 294:11,21
210:11 214:7 covered 12:18 276:20 114:19 115:4 195:10,15,17 295:4,15,25
214:8 215:17 112:21 277:14 285:2 116:21 118:5 196:1,4,11 296:9,23
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232:13 covers 26:13 329:14 121:25 198:20,22 298:16
241:10 create 110:24 dates 242:20 122:20 199:5,17 299:11 300:1
243:22,23 116:16 242:20 267:1 123:18 124:6 200:7,11,23 301:3,17
246:13,14 credence 38:9 Davidson 2:3 126:18 128:9 202:13 204:4 302:9,17,25
247:6 249:21 38:11 7:2,3 118:2 128:19,25 206:15,18,19 303:13 304:3
250:9 252:21 critical 205:10 284:12 129:16 130:3 210:6 211:9 304:14,24
252:23 253:1 CTE 259:8,21 319:25 327:5 130:17 211:25 305:11,18
266:6 271:2 261:1,4,6,9,9 day 12:4,14 131:16 132:2 217:19 218:7 306:5 308:2
271:3 272:24 261:11,13,17 23:10,11 132:4 133:17 218:11 219:3 308:6,10,12
276:21 262:3,7,24 47:1 88:16 134:6,23 220:17 221:9 310:10,17,22
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285:19 294:5 137:3 161:6 239:15 139:14,20,25 226:9,22 315:4,10,24
298:17 current 30:5 332:19 140:5,10,15 227:14,22 316:12,21,23
299:13 300:7 182:22 day-to-day 140:20,25 228:3,5,21,23 317:5,22
302:10,12 249:23 21:8 34:8 141:5,10,15 229:10 230:5 319:5 320:3
307:8 311:19 currently 16:20 days 23:10 141:21,24 231:7,21 320:14
311:21 16:23 17:10 50:21 51:2,5 142:1,6,11,16 234:1,24 322:19,23
315:17 328:6 25:23 125:14 51:7 182:25 142:21 236:11,18 323:2,16
328:7 330:25 146:7 257:6 183:15 185:5 143:23 144:4 237:6,10,17 324:8 326:2
331:1 337:5 cut 66:21 187:16 144:9,17 242:2,11 326:14,20
corrections CWG 255:3 202:25 145:2 147:5 243:14 245:3 327:7,11,14
335:5,8 288:3 223:13 147:22 245:12,16 327:18 328:1
337:7 Czech 91:8 224:16,22 148:12,13 246:7 247:3 328:19 329:7
corrective 306:11,16 149:2,9,17,25 247:17,24,25 329:21 330:3
26:10 D 335:18 150:25 249:11,13,16 330:4,7
correctly D 3:2 deal 16:17 151:15 152:3 249:19,25 331:11 333:4
272:18 D-E-V-I-C-K 209:10 152:7,24 250:5,7 334:3
correlate 97:25 60:2 Dearman 2:3 153:12,15 251:10 252:2 death 319:3
counsel 4:13 D-O-R-S-H-I... 3:5 6:24,25 154:1,3,17,25 252:7 253:6 December
6:22 8:14 60:16 8:4,7 12:22 155:3,16 253:14 254:6 286:23
10:10 12:11 daily 40:3 80:6 13:8 15:18 157:7 159:5 254:15 Dechert 1:15
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84:13 145:13 Daly 243:6 25:9,11 161:12 162:1 256:15 257:1 decided 323:4

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decision 99:22 deponent 6:18 279:17 106:23 107:1 208:11,15 56:9 66:7
105:10,14,15 337:1 diagnosis 196:7 240:12 239:3,9,23 67:15 76:6
181:24 depose 320:21 287:11 312:19 326:6 240:7 260:13 92:1 123:22
217:13,21 320:23 dictates 196:25 326:7 328:15 260:15 204:8 209:14
218:4,15 deposed 16:11 die 137:10 discussed 263:17,18 233:18
236:6 237:2 deposing differ 109:8 117:23 280:11,20 239:11
326:23 335:17 difference 151:10 158:8 302:3 240:23
decision-ma... deposition 77:22 112:2 158:20 doctorate 244:19 246:4
187:18 1:12 5:2 6:9 209:12,15 160:24 260:15 251:4 265:8
decisions 6:13,19 11:4 238:11 161:21 doctors 43:24 308:16
171:2 16:10 70:24 244:23,25 198:10 55:9 191:12 314:24
decrease 100:17 132:1 245:5 254:18 255:5 191:12 321:15
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Confidential Deposition of James McCrossin - 6/10/2015

In Re: National Hockey League Players' Concussion Injury Litigation

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