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historicity-was-already-taken
historicity-was-already-taken

Interesting thread just popped up on r/AITAH

It reads:

AITA for causing a scene after a class discussion about Holocaust ended up with my son being bullied?

My son (11M) has always been proud of his Polish heritage. Were Polish-American, and weve taught him a lot about our familys history. His great grandfather fought in the Armia Krajowa (the Polish Home army), which was one of the largest underground resistance movements in Nazi occupied Europe. He was wounded during the Warsaw Uprising, an effort where thousands of Polish civilians and soldiers rose up against the Nazis. Unfortunately, he was eventually captured by the Nazis and sent to KZ Stutthof, a concentration camp. Despite the unimaginable horrors there, he survived and later came to USA to rebuild his life, though he never forgot what he fought for.

Recently, my sons class had a lesson about World War II and the Holocaust. After school, he came home unusually quiet. When I asked what was wrong, he told me the teacher said Poland helped the Nazis carry out the Holocaust. Apparently, the teacher claimed that Polish people were active collaborators and shared blame for the genocide. My son was horrified and so was I.

He told me that after the lesson, one boy turned to him and said I guess that makes you a Nazi sympathizer. Other kids laughed. My son was devastated and just broke down crying. How could anyone say that? Poland was one of the first countries invaded by Nazi Germany, and over 6 million Polish citizens were killed, half of them were Jewish. The Nazis considered Poles to be subhuman and executed entire villages in retaliation for resistance efforts. And yet, even under the threat of death, many Poles risked their lives to save Jewish families. The egota Council was established solely to aid Jews, and people like Irena Sendler smuggled over 2,000 of Jewish children to safety.

I emailed the teacher, assuming there was some misunderstanding. But instead of acknowledging the issue, he doubled down saying it was important to explore all perspectives and that Poland wasnt completely innocent. I was furious. Spreading falsehoods like that not only distorts history but also fuels antisemitism and hatred. It also completely disrespects people like my great grandfather, who put their lives on the line to fight the Nazis and endured unimaginable suffering in KZ Stutthof.

The next day, I went to the school office and demanded a meeting with the principal. Ill admit, I wasnt calm and could've handled it much better and that's probably where I was the asshole for yelling and swearing at the staff who had nothing to do with it. But I told them how offensive it was to teach blatant misinformation, especially when it led to my son being bullied. I brought up historical facts, ncluding how the Armia Krajowa fought against both the Nazis and the Soviets, and how Polish resistance fighters were often tortured and executed. The teacher was there too, and instead of apologizing, he accused me of overreacting and claimed I was pushing nationalist propaganda. I reminded him that Yad Vashem honors over 7,000 Polish citizens as Righteous Among the Nations for risking their lives to save Jews, more than any other country.

Now my wife (who doesn't have Polish ancestry) is saying I've made a scene and embarrassed the teacher, myself and my son and overall disagrees with me doing what I did. My sons still being called names, though the school promised to look into it. My wife thinks I should've handled it differently and not cause a scene or make a big deal about it, but my sister says supports me in my actions.

While I agree I could've been calmer and handled it maybe privately, am I really the asshole for standing up for my history and most importantly my son? Am I also wrong to think that it's not acceptable that my wife is okay with my son being bullied in school?

I replied:

ESH, with the asshole scale pointing towards you.

The Armja Krajowa was actively anti-Semitic and spent a lot of the time and effort they could have spent fighting the Nazis harassing Jewish partisans instead. They refused to share any intelligence with the Jewish underground and were adamantly opposed to the ghetto uprisings.

During the Warsaw Uprising of 1944, the AK continued to harass Jews, accuse them of being Soviet spies, forced them to do the hardest most humiliating tasks, beat, and murdered them. The Armja Ludowa was better to the Jews, but there was still great anti-Semitism within its ranks.

Though subject to genocidal conditions themselves, many Poles were complicit in the Holocaust, and felt strongly that if Hitler had to be there, at least he was getting rid of the Jews.

The Polish undergrounds were heroic and exposed to genocidal conditions, but that doesn’t erase their complicity, and that complicity is 800% relevant in the context of Holocaust history.
You behaved like a nationalist, revisionist, dick and you owe your child’s school an apology.

THAT SAID. Your child’s teacher was also wrong. There were ordinary Poles across all levels of Polish society (the righteous gentiles) who risked their lives to aid the Jews. The righteous gentiles are important, and require a presence in these types of lessons.

Source: am a Holocaust historian. My first book, a history of the Jewish resistance in Warsaw, will be released in October.

ETA: Your kid's teacher also sucks for not intervening in the situation which led him to tears.

Downvotes can't change the past, y'all.

The way Poles and Jews of Polish ancestry choose to remember these events is....fascinating, from a memory standpoint. But NUANCE, always.

grison-in-space

"NUANCE, always" is a good slogan to live by, I find.

I find that for whatever reason, in an American context this comes up a lot in Catholic/Jewish relations because of the way that many Catholic ethnic groups experienced anti-Catholic persecution while living as community diasporas in the US--which I find often creates a blind spot, because the Catholicism becomes worked into part of the diasporic ethnic identity and so does this belief that Catholics are oppressed relative to other groups. (Much of this history began to erode in the wake of the 1980s' Moral Majority alliance, but it still lingers enough to pop up in very weird ways.)

Unfortunately, the Catholic church and its scions have very different power dynamics relative to both Jews and Protestants in much of the rest of the world. What that means is that for Americans from traditionally Catholic ethnic groups, it can be hard to understand and accept that both abroad and within America, Catholics have also been both a force for fascism and a group that is sometimes happy to engage in lateral racist/ethnic violence (consider for example Father Coughlin the openly fascist and, yes, very anti-Semitic American priest who had a radio empire in the 20s.). And of course all of these diasporic groups have their own complicated relationships regarding how they see one another and themselves and their history both in countries of origin and as diasporic groups in the US.

The truth is that no one should be in the habit of thinking of any group as always an underdog, and everyone should be aware that whichever groups are most personally and internal meaningful to them also almost certainly contain assholes. Lots of them. Because that is part of being human and engaging in human society; there are always going to be hateful assholes. The trick is to acknowledge the harms perpetuated by your community, remembering those shameful deeds to reduce their perpetuation in the future, while also allowing the benevolent people who did commit acts of solidarity with others to inspire future positive actions.

Which is to say: more or less exactly what you said on Reddit.

historicity-was-already-taken

The complex history regarding anti-Catholicism, anti-Semitism, Jewish History, Catholic History, and that weird fucking situation in Northern Ireland where Catholics hang Palestinian flags and Protestants hang Israeli flags*....above my pay grade.

So yeah, what you said. Let's just keep borrowing each other's eloquence.

*I do actually understand some of the logic and context. But my hatred of comparison as a force of erasure and over-simplicity trumps all.

hazel2468
roguelibrarian

Thinking constantly about that post that's like "[goyim] wanted to see us argue with g-d, not argue with them."

They really will just pretend to like us and tolerate us when they can memeify our culture and think of us as silly, quirky weirdos who don't have Christmas trees and don't eat certain foods and will fight g-d behind a Denny's (because we're so Weird, you see). But the second we do anything that reminds them we're actually people who have priorities other than pleasing or entertaining them, they lose their shit.

Jews are only acceptable to goyim when we're funny little mascots they can use to prove how totally not antisemitic they are, or dead, passive props in their stories where they take Jewish suffering and death and make it into an allegory about anyone but Jews.

obsidianbit
elancholia

Some people, when presented with a situation where it's plausibly justifiable to be mean, will choose meanness every single time. And it's sort of subtle, because they can make an argument that they're being reasonable in every individual case, but, in aggregate, they're poisonous, absolutely psychically corrosive to their whole environments. And the attitude is sort of contagious because it always looks strong, even as it weakens and hollows everything it touches — it gives you lots of opportunities to score points, you're always on the offensive, you keep everyone permanently on the back foot. And it makes everyone fucking miserable. You have to look at those situations and say, actually, it's also perfectly plausible and reasonable for you not to be an asshole about this, you're choosing this, and you always choose this.

jellyfemmedyke
transfemme-shelterdog

Transandrophobia is a made up white, western concept:

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Sure seems like the transphobia that these "white westerners" talk about occurs in non-white, non-Western contexts as well

Source

transfemme-shelterdog

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Yep. But that doesn't stop people on this hellsite from claiming it's some sort of white fragility or some other stupid ass take.

Because y'know, only ever white, western, trans guys on this site talk about the issue, right? /s

bemusedlybespectacled
reasonsforhope

By the way, you can improve your executive function. You can literally build it like a muscle.

Yes, even if you're neurodivergent. I don't have ADHD, but it is allegedly a thing with ADHD as well. And I am autistic, and after a bunch of nerve damage (severe enough that I was basically housebound for 6 months), I had to completely rebuild my ability to get my brain to Do Things from what felt like nearly scratch.

This is specifically from ADDitude magazine, so written specifically for ADHD (and while focused in large part on kids, also definitely includes adults and adult activities):

Here's a link on this for autism (though as an editor wow did that title need an editor lol):

Resources on this aren't great because they're mainly aimed at neurotypical therapists or parents of neurdivergent children. There's worksheets you can do that help a lot too or thought work you can do to sort of build the neuro-infrastructure for tasks.

But a lot of the stuff is just like. fun. Pulling from both the first article and my own experience:

  • Play games or video games where you have to make a lot of decisions. Literally go make a ton of picrews or do online dress-up dolls if you like. It helped me.
  • Art, especially forms of art that require patience, planning ahead, or in contrast improvisation
  • Listening to longform storytelling without visuals, e.g. just listening regularly to audiobooks or narrative podcasts, etc.
  • Meditation
  • Martial arts
  • Sports in general
  • Board games like chess or Catan (I actually found a big list of what board games are good for building what executive functioning skills here)
  • Woodworking
  • Cooking
  • If you're bad at time management play games or video games with a bunch of timers

Things can be easier. You might always have a disability around this (I certainly always will), but it can be easier. You do not have to be this stuck forever.

hazel2468
bigandgreedy

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technofeudalism

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yeah, he sure is

kurganfilledwithbearbones

Guys for fuck's sake he took himself out of the group chat because he is a) aware that he does not have security clearance to see what they were discussing b) aware that they will use this fact to prosecute him/go after other people at his magazine. Sometimes, someone's opinion on Zionism is not actually relevant to the specific deeply insane news story they accidentally got bundled into that in a sane world would see everyone else in the group chat fired and arrested for treason, and bringing it up as it it's a mitigating factor is just being conspiratorial about da joos. You can dislike or even hate this person without doing a pepe silvia board that makes the most consequential opsec failure of the past eighty years a, what. I'm not even sure what's going on here. Is this a Mossad plot? Is that what's being claimed?

pagecommando

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Maybe you're this stupid, you dumbfuck. EVERYTHING ALIGNS WHEN ITS DA JOOOS. Gee I wonder fucking why.

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You're right, he should have sat on it for 2 years and then published a book about it while blaming Democrats. You're so right wow.

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A conservative journalist who had integrity and reported on it.

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Oh it 'explains some stuff' What ARE you going to 'notice' next.

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A journalist reported on an unprecedented violation of security and on what people were saying but 'he tried to get coats to be pro israel' so he's an asshole instead of you, who clearly knows journalism better.

Coates dipped out of the US for Paris during Trump I, he went to Israel for 2 weeks to write his magnum opus of bullshit, and he comes by his Jew-hatred honestly, he just lib/leftwashed it.

The National Book Foundation is defending its decision to honor publisher W. Paul Coates, father of the influential journalist Ta-Nehisi Coates, with its Literarian lifetime achievement award, despite his press having published a work that’s been accused of being antisemitic.

In September, Jewish Insider reported that Coates’s Black Classic Press, was continuing to publish The Jewish Onslaught, a 1993 work from then-Wellesly College Africana Studies Tony Martin.

The book describes the backlash Martin, who died in 2013, faced for teaching a discredited Nation of Islam book about the history of Jews involved in the slave trade. It also claims Jewish people joined the Civil Rights Movement to win acceptance from white elites as part of a larger “Jewish onslaught against Black progress.”

At the time of its publication, the book was heavily criticized by civil rights groups like the Anti-Defamation League and repudiated by the leadership of Wellesley College.

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Gotta cite a benedict cumberbatch movie about Alan Turing to show that deep WWII knowledge and calling someone who DID NEWS REPORTING a 'bootlicker' for reporting the news as you further cook yourself.

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Just say Jewish, Jack, this is taking forever

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What does 'it' explain

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What is a 'zionist'? What is a centrist? Why is a 'zionist' worse than a 'centrist'

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These comments are doing a great job being zionist because they're sure as shit convincing the Jews reading them they have no place in the diaspora and can't trust anyone left or Ritchie Torres with their safety.

Congratulations! You too are a zionist now!


You dumb motherfuckers say you want good, hard hitting journalism about what the assholes in power are up to but when it happens you're more mad at the person who broke the story and the Democrats for not 'stopping it' than you are with the rapist fratboy bullshit that is actually the thing Hillary Clinton got dragged through the dirt for being accused of but not actually DOING.

You all hate Jews, you hate journalism, and you love Republicans, because you sure as shit don't seem to think they have any agency.

You'd join the KKK, the nazis, or the black hundreds in a heartbeat if it would net you the social approval you crave. Sensitive 'antizionism' is what you have now.

the-library-alcove
boreal-sea

Getting really tired of antizionists only citing the early Zionists who hated Palestinians, instead of the many who were promoting peace and coexistence.

mayaoftheflowers

Not even all early Zionists necessarily wanted a state, and binationalism was a HUGE tendency for a long time.

The Hebron massacre and similar instances (understandably) hardened attitudes.

the-library-alcove

Turns out, when a group of people repeatedly offer peace and have it thrown back at them with the literal and emphatic insistence that there will only be peace when that group of people are either dead or enslaved, that group of people tend to take the hint after a while... but even then, there's still hope that cooler heads will prevail in the other group.

jellyfemmedyke
renthony

God, it really felt for a little while like there was an uptick in NPD positivity, and general awareness that lacking empathy/experiencing "abnormal" empathy levels has no bearing on whether someone is a good person or a bad person. I saw an increase in PSA posts about how people with NPD are human, deserve compassion, and are typically the victims of abuse or other trauma. There was still a lot of bullshit discourse, but it really seemed like people with NPD were getting treated with a little bit more respect and compassion.

And then the "sin of empathy" shit happened and everyone reverted back to "oh my godddd, republicans are evil because they don't have empathy! The left is better because we have EMPATHY! Narcissists are evil monsters with soulless black eyes! Empathy empathy empathy! "

Sigh.