Talk:Bang Chan

Re-adding dancer

@Btspurplegalaxy

Hi there, I noticed that you reverted the addition of "dancer" to Bang Chan's role. I just wanted to clarify that in multiple interviews and performances, Bang Chan has introduced himself as a singer, rapper, and dancer, including during Stray Kids' official debut. Additionally, the main Stray Kids article reflects his role as a dancer. I’d be happy to provide sources supporting this. Could you kindly share your reason for removing it? I’d appreciate your thoughts on this matter. Thank you for your time! RDWolfgang (talk) 18:21, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

You'll need a reliable source for the information. Interviews and performances can't be used as primary references. That's why the content was removed. If you can find a solid source confirming his occupation as a dancer, feel free to add it back. Btspurplegalaxy 💬 🖊️ 18:27, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi there,

Thank you for your response. I understand the need for reliable sources. However, I would like to point out several articles that confirm Bang Chan's role as a dancer in addition to singing, rapping, sonwriting, and producing.

1. In an article from IS Plus, Bang Chan is referred to as an "all-rounder artist," stating he is active as a leader, producer, vocalist, dancer, and rapper. You can view this article here.
2. The South China Morning Post describes him as an "artistic jack of all trades," mentioning that he "often takes centre stage in Stray Kids’ choreography formations where he’s able to show off his years of dance training" (link).
3. An article from Top Class emphasizes his "multi-talented" nature, highlighting that he possesses skills in rap, singing, dancing, and producing (link).
4. In a Rolling Stone interview, it's noted that Bang Chan has "exceptional singing voice and dance ability" (link).
5. Finally, comments from Park Jin-young underscore his capabilities, stating, "Chan is good at dancing, singing, rapping, and feeling" (link).

These sources not only affirm his role as a dancer but also support the information present in the main Stray Kids article. It may have been beneficial to cross-check these references before removing the term "dancer."

I appreciate your time and consideration, and I hope to reach an agreement on this matter.

Best regards! RDWolfgang (talk) 19:13, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I would use the second source. Btspurplegalaxy 💬 🖊️ 19:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate your feedback regarding the sources. However, I didn’t quite understand what you meant by "I would use the second source."

I would love it if you could elaborate on your opinion regarding the inclusion of "dancer" in Bang Chan's role. I believe that acknowledging him as a dancer is essential to represent his profession accurately, especially considering the multiple reliable sources I've provided.

If we could find a way to incorporate this information based on the sources available, I think it would give a fuller picture of his contributions to Stray Kids.

Thank you for your time! RDWolfgang (talk) 19:57, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't say any of these say he's a "dancer". When I see someone listed with their occupation as "dancer" I think of someone who is known for their dancing, standalone. Bang Chan is a singer and rapper who happens to dance as part of those occupations. But that doesn't make his occupation be dancer.

Just because those sources are saying he's talented at dancing doesn't mean "dancer" is his occupation. RachelTensions (talk) 01:25, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I second this. — ‎‎‎hhypeboyh 💬 • ✏️ 05:35, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi there, thank you for your feedback. While I understand your point about distinguishing between someone who is primarily a dancer versus someone who dances as part of their musical performances, I’d like to clarify that in Bang Chan’s case, his role as a dancer is specifically mentioned in an official source. The Elle Japan article explicitly lists his position in Stray Kids as "leader, lead vocalist, sub-rapper, and lead dancer" (link: Elle Japan). Since this refers to his official position in the group, it should be considered valid for inclusion. After all, we recognize his roles as a singer and rapper in the same way, based on these positions.

It would have been better to review this article and the other sources before making edits, as they do provide reliable support for his inclusion as a dancer. I also think it would have been helpful to discuss this matter beforehand to avoid confusion. I hope we can reach a consensus on this, and I’d really appreciate your thoughts. RDWolfgang (talk) 06:16, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Someone else can chime in here but as a general rule for K-pop groups/members, we don't include group "positions" like main X/lead Y/sub-Z. As far as I'm concerned he's a singer who dances; Beyoncé is also a singer who dances but we don't have her listed as a "dancer" because she only dances as part of her job as a singer.

As far as reviewing the sources before making edits; there were no sources cited in the article regarding this. RachelTensions (talk) 06:27, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia does have guidelines that suggest being cautious when including specific titles or roles like "main X/lead Y/sub-Z" for musicians, especially in genres like K-pop.

While I understand the general approach to avoiding the inclusion of specific group positions, Wikipedia’s guidelines on content about musicians, particularly in the context of K-pop, emphasize that the roles listed in reliable sources can be relevant and informative.

According to Wikipedia's Manual of Style for biographies, it's encouraged to mention notable roles or positions that are widely recognized in reliable sources. In the case of Bang Chan, his role as "lead dancer" is mentioned in the official Elle Japan article, which provides reliable support for his inclusion as a dancer.

Moreover, I understand the analogy to Beyoncé, the key difference is that K-pop groups operate with specific hierarchies and roles that are part of their public personas. These roles are not merely functional; they are a part of how the group is marketed and perceived by fans and the industry. Just as we recognize Bang Chan’s contributions as a lead vocalist and sub-rapper based on his official positions, it is equally valid to recognize him as a dancer given that he has been formally assigned that role within Stray Kids.

The guideline on Verifiability states that we should rely on reputable sources to establish facts. Since Bang Chan's position as a "lead dancer" is acknowledged in an official article, it aligns with Wikipedia's standards for verifiable information. RDWolfgang (talk) 06:50, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

When it comes to BLP article of K-pop group members, being in the "dancer" position doesn't necessarily warrant the inclusion of dancer as an occupation. For example, Jungkook is also the lead dancer of BTS, but we don't put 'dancer' as his occupation. — ‎‎‎hhypeboyh 💬 • ✏️ 06:54, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Birth name

Am I the only one that finds the spelling of "Christopher Chahn Bahng" a little dubious? I know it's sourced to Billboard but the way it's presented by the source is in an inconsequential manner, almost in passing, like it could be a typo. No other sources refer to him in this manner, in fact sources from Korea and vetted as reliable by WP:KO/RS refer to him as "Christopher Chan Bang": Cine21 [1]

So either we remove it altogether, find further sources supporting one or the other, or we add a note about "sources differing" on the spelling of his birth name. Thoughts? RachelTensions (talk) 01:18, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe it's a typo, but I agree that it would be wise to find more sources before making a final decision. Verifying the correct spelling through additional reliable references would help clear up any uncertainty. RDWolfgang (talk) 06:21, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the spelling is typo because Bang Chan confirmed his name twice (once during a live broadcast and one at a content video (will search for it if needed)) but I believe we can't put those sources in the article, right? The only source I could find about the spelling right now is only from the said Billboard article. — Shenaall (t ♣ c) 07:50, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

If you can find the source of him confirming his name is "Christopher Chahn Bahng" then that'd probably be enough, IMO, to supplement the validity of the Billboard article and disregard the Cine21 article, so we'd avoid having to do a "sources differ" note. Right now sources are 50/50 for each way. RachelTensions (talk) 07:59, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Given Billboard's reputation for accuracy, it's unlikely they would make such an error. RDWolfgang (talk) 08:04, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Both sources are known to be reliable. RachelTensions (talk) 08:05, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

In conclusion, we need to find at least one more source to confirm the spelling from other reliable source (not from Billboard or Cine21) to not be conflicted because of "source differ" between two reliable sources. Is this understanding correct? — Shenaall (t ♣ c) 08:13, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

That'd be my opinion on the matter... right now we have two known good reliable sources that differ. We need something to tip the balance one way or the other. If Chan said it somewhere then that'd be a self-published primary source which is fine as long as it meets the criteria under WP:BLPSELFPUB RachelTensions (talk) 08:19, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh, so you mean the video of him confirming the spelling! Okay, I will search for the video first and give you all an update later. — Shenaall (t ♣ c) 08:24, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Weird comment about name

What's up with this commented out line in the article?
DO NOT REFER TO BANG CHAN AS JUST "CHAN" or "BANG". UNLESS REFERRING TO HIS BIRTH NAME, USE "BANG CHAN", NOT "BAHNG CHAHN"
This goes against the manual of style for names located at WP:SURNAME. His surname is Bang. His (Korean) given name is Chan.

We don't refer to Ava Max as "Ava Max" throughout her entire article, that'd be weird. RachelTensions (talk) 05:54, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Agree, I believe we can standardize how to refer him as "Bang" in the body as per WP:SURNAME. But one question, what is the reason of not use "Bahng"? Is it because WP:COMMONNAME too? — Shenaall (t ♣ c) 08:00, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

If their commonly known name has a surname in it, whether it be their real one (as is the case here), or an assumed name, then we use that. Again using the Ava Max example, we use the surname "Max", not "Koci", or for David Bowie we use "Bowie", not "Jones". If the subject was mononomous then we'd refer to them as their singular name. RachelTensions (talk) 08:09, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Understood, totally agree with you in this area. — Shenaall (t ♣ c) 08:15, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Citizenship

Do we have any sources that he is an Australian citizen or are we just inferring that because that's the country he's associated with? He lived in Australia from the ages of 3 to 13, but was born in South Korea and has lived in that country for 16 of his 26 years (per WP:RS that say he moved to Australia when he was 3 and back to Korea when he was 13.)

Furthermore, do we know (via Wikipedia:Reliable sources,) that he's not a South Korean citizen? For all we know (from WP:RS, not fans examining his passport colour in paparazzi photos from the airport), he could be an Australian permanent resident and Korean citizen.

I know this might seem obvious but we need to be careful with Wikipedia:BLP. RachelTensions (talk) 06:06, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

As of now, the reliable sources available primarily indicate that Bang Chan was born in South Korea and spent significant time in Australia from ages 3 to 13. The news article detailing his planning of Stray Kids' "Australian tour" and mentioning his hometown in Sydney provides additional context supporting his Australian background, illustrating his connection to the country Donga. While there may be implications about his association with Australia, we currently lack definitive sources that confirm his citizenship status. Regarding his citizenship, it would be prudent to state the facts as they are known: he was born in South Korea and lived in Australia for a considerable period. Unless we can find reliable sources that explicitly state his current citizenship or residency status, we should avoid making assumptions or inferences based on the duration of his stay in Australia and in South Korea. RDWolfgang (talk) 06:58, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

In that case I'm going to change the lead to something more general and remove the "citizenship" section of the infobox until we can find something more concrete, or unless someone suggests an alternative. RachelTensions (talk) 07:08, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe we should refer to him as Australian-Korean, as it better reflects his background. The NME article supports this designation, stating that he is Australian-Korean (source). RDWolfgang (talk) 07:44, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Great, don't forget to cite that. RachelTensions (talk) 07:49, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

@RDWolfgang Looks like you added Australian-Korean to the lead and to the citizenship on the infobox but didn't cite the source RachelTensions (talk) 08:23, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

We do not cite in the lead section i have added the source in his Career section in a relevant place you can see that there RDWolfgang (talk) 08:43, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

There's nothing that says you shouldn't cite your sources in the lead section, especially if that statement isn't repeated somewhere in the main body of the article and cited there, and especially if the information could be seen as controversial.

The source is included in the career section (citation 13) but it's sourcing a statement about him training with Day6, nothing to do with his citizenship. RachelTensions (talk) 08:48, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

It's only natural he has Australian citizenship. There's no source to verify his citizenship of South Korea. Btspurplegalaxy 💬 🖊️ 09:00, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Born in South Korea to South Korean parents and lived there for more than half his life - why would it be "natural" that he has Australian citizenship but not South Korean? We have no source stating he renounced ROK nationality. RachelTensions (talk) 09:12, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

A person can be born in one country but not acquire its citizenship. In this case, both of his parents live in Australia, not Korea. It’s only natural that he would hold Australian citizenship, having been raised there his entire life. A good example of this is Choi Woo-shik. Btspurplegalaxy 💬 🖊️ 09:25, 2 October 2024 (UTC)