Talk:Harrison Wells

Earth-1 Wells

JokEobard and Ooznoz, there are two opposing views on what to do with the Earth-1 Wells. JokEobard, your view is that E1 Wells should be listed under the "Other variants" section because he was not a long-term character. Ooznoz, your view is that he should be given a proper listing like Harry, HR and Sherloque because he was a serious character with significance to the story, and not a "comedic throwaway" like the season 3 versions and the Councils. I am torn between your views, but can we reach an agreement? Anyone else is welcome to participate. --Kailash29792 (talk) 08:13, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Kailash29792 and JokEobard: I'm willing to enter into a proper debate about this. JokEobard, you go first, because I would really like to know why you believe that the E1 Wells needs to be listed under "Variants". Ooznoz (talk) 15:41, 5 February 2019 (UTC)Ooznoz

Just by looking at the size of the content the Earth-1 section has, I'd say that a stand-alone section is a good option. --Gonnym (talk) 16:03, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Kailash29792 and Ooznoz: I, for one, believe that E1's original Harrison Wells should be listed in the variants section simply because he was never a main character on the show. The "Wells" that Tom Cavanagh portrayed throughout the entirety of season 1's main present day storyline was always Eobard Thawne, the Reverse-Flash. While it is true that E1 Wells' death is what led to this facade (and therefore had significance to the story), he still only appeared in one sole episode via flashbacks. A good and more well-known example of a character with a similar role would be the villain Crossbones in the 2016 film Captain America: Civil War. While it is undoubtedly true that his presence and actions at the beginning of the story are what led to everything else that transpired in the film, he only had a sum-total of less than 10 minutes of screen time. Could we therefore say that he was a central character or the main antagonist of the film? Hardly. Characters such as E1 Wells and Crossbones are simply, from a storytelling perspective, a means to an end; minor characters who are merely present to push the plot forward. Another good example of E1 Wells not being a main character on the show can be found on the Arrowverse Wikia. Obviously, Wikipedia does not recognize such a site as a reliable source, but a quick glance on the Arrowverse's main page will prove my point. On the list of main characters, Cavanagh is listed as having portrayed Eobard Thawne, E2's Harry Wells, E19's H.R. Wells, and Sherloque Wells only. Not E1's Wells. But I am curious to hear your opinions and perspectives on this matter, Ooznoz. JokEobard (talk) 16:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Kailash29792 and JokEobard: Thank you, JokEobard, for your assessment. I've always contended that the E1 Wells needs his own section. Yes, he did appear in one episode, and only in flashbacks. But, he is not the same as the other brief one-episode variants of later seasons. Those variants are merely stock characters that allow Tom Cavanaugh to stretch his acting chops and play dress-up. These characters are little more than their descriptions: a German Wells, a steampunk Wells, Wells-as-Hugh-Hefner, Wells the mime, Cyborg Wells, et cetera, et cetera. Not much there. They are literally stereotypes and satires (Yes, I'm looing at you, Wells the Grey lol).

Now, in the case of the E1 Wells, he is a truly fleshed-out character: intelligent, soft-spoken, ambitious, far-sighted, and a devoted husband. As Gonnym correctly points out, there is a lot of content here (something I consider a triumph for the show's creators that they could pull that off). In terms of his story significance, Thawne didn't just create the identity of Wells, he was impersonating the man. He needed to have someone to impersonate. So, when we find out when and how he took over, the audience is shown the "real" Wells (remember, this was before the show established its own multiverse). And, if the E1 Wells wasn't sufficiently characterized, the audience wouldn't care that he died, particularly in the cruel way Thawne did it.

So, even though he made a single-episode appearance, the E1 Wells was a significant, well-rounded character who deserves his own section in this article. He wasn't a tiny throwaway character done for comedic purposes and shouldn't be lumped in with the other brief variants of Wells. Ooznoz (talk) 18:04, 5 February 2019 (UTC)Ooznoz

Kailash29792 and Ooznoz: I appreciate your reply and do sincerely respect your point of view, Ooznoz. However, it is important to note that Thawne only impersonated E1's Wells to a certain extent. According to Tina McGee (who was E1 Wells' best friend prior to his death), Thawne's "portrayal" of the real Wells was almost entirely dissimilar from how the original Harrison behaved; if I recall, McGee claimed that after the "accident" that claimed the life of his wife, Tess Morgan, "Harrison Wells became a completely different person". As such, I believe that Thawne, in his own way, did indeed create the identity of his Wells; Thawne certainly wouldn't have to concern himself with anyone discovering his secret. After all, who would assume that a stranded time traveler had murdered two people and assumed one of them's identity to create his future nemesis?

In addition, from my perspective, the reveal that Thawne had killed E1's original Wells and assumed his identity for fifteen years was meant to bring about feelings of shock within viewers, rather than sympathy for the deceased Wells. The audience is intended to feel surprise and disbelief that the Flash's mentor they had seen coach him throughout the entire season had really never existed, and was merely a facade that the villain undertook to serve his own ends. And again, from my perspective, the audience would not have evoked a level of sympathy for E1's deceased Wells as they would have for the erased timeline's deceased Cisco; E1's Harrison Wells was killed during his introduction, and his death was only brought up later on in the season to serve as another plot catalyst (Barry and the team discovering Thawne's fifteen year-long secret, rather than to make the viewers feel for E1's Wells.JokEobard (talk) 20:34, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Kailash29792 and JokEobard: Respectfully, JokEobard, you just proved my point. The E1 Wells' appearance and death, whether it evokes shock or sympathy, evokes something in the viewer. And all within one appearance. Ask yourself this: if any of the Wells Council members were killed onscreen, would you really care? I doubt it. There's not enough invested in them in terms of characterization for the audience to react in any way other than perhaps an "OMG!" or "Holy $#!+", but nothing further. As to Thawne's Wells, of course he would not be the same as the E1 Wells; he was impersonating the man, but he was still himself throughout. So, the Thawne Wells and the E1 Wells are different characters. But the E1 Wells is his own distinct character, and far and away more detailed than the other variants. He deserves to be treated as such. Ooznoz (talk) 22:03, 5 February 2019 (UTC)Ooznoz

Kailash29792 and JokEobard: I've reverted the E1 Wells info back to having its own section. There is no disrespect meant or intended, I just want other readers who might want to weigh in on this to see the placement. Ooznoz (talk) 01:24, 6 February 2019 (UTC)Ooznoz

I actually agree with what all three of you – JokEobard, Ooznoz and Gonnym – say. JokEobard's view that E1 Wells was not a long-term character; Ooznoz's view that he was of significance and relevance, not a comedic variant like the Councils of Harrison Wells, and Gonnym's view that he should have his own section in some way. Would it be nice to merge the two sections and present events chronologically? Additionally, this discussion now convinces me the infobox image should contain only the core versions of Wells: Thawne (in the likeness of E1 Wells), Harry, HR and Sherloque. Is that an agreeable view? Kailash29792 (talk) 04:52, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Kailash29792 and Ooznoz: I would certainly agree that the infobox image needs an update as according to Tom Cavanagh himself, the show will only continue to introduce more and more versions of Harrison Wells as time goes on. Thus, it will be more effective if only the long-term iterations (Thawne, Harry, H.R., and Sherloque) were featured.

With regards to the sectioning issue of E1 Wells, another reason why I believe E1 Wells should be listed under "Variants" is because the Barry Allen (Arrowverse) article does something similar with E2's Barry Allen. Yes, E2's Barry did play a major role in the two-part Earth-2 story arc in season 2, and he certainly had a much more significant contribution to the overall plot than E1 Wells did for season 1. And yet, he is listed under the "other versions" section. And this is simply due to the fact that series regular Grant Gustin never played him as a main character, just an important one for a brief period of time. JokEobard (talk) 07:02, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Kailash29792 and JokEobard: I have never been happy with the current infobox image, so yes, it needs updating. I'm still of the opinion that the infobox should have a single photo of Tom Cavanaugh that evokes the Wells character (which I have seen online elsewhere) and have the different sections illustrated with photos of each Wells. But, I'm willing to settle for the major Wells' in the infobox and the others illustrating the "Variants" section.

As to your comparison of the E1 Wells and the E2 Barry: the "Barry Allen (Arrowverse)" article focuses primarily on the Barry Allen of Earth-1. Its central topic is the E1 Barry, and all the other variants are just that, variants -- different tangents on the same character. This article, the "Harrison Wells" article, focuses on different iterations of a character named Harrison Wells. The E2 Barry was more of a divergent, yet highly similar, version of the E1 Barry, while the different Wells' are major departures that have their own histories and back stories. Remember this, too: Thawne was never Wells to begin with; he simply killed the E1 version, took his form and claimed to be him until he was exposed. The E1 Wells, however brief his appearance, was that Earth's version and was shown to have a history and character depth. He deserves to be mentioned on his own without relation to the later paper versions. Ooznoz (talk) 07:31, 6 February 2019 (UTC)Ooznoz

Just to pick up on something here that Ooznoz said and I was not sure if to bring up or not - Harrison Wells#Harrison Wells / Eobard Thawne this section pretty much does not really belong in this article, but in an Eobard Thawne article (which currently does not exist). We need to remember that we are not creating a Tom Cavanagh Arrowverse article, but an article about Harrison Wells, and this version was always Eobard Thawne in disguise. --Gonnym (talk) 20:46, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Also, regarding the infobox image. I think a better solution would be to split the infobox for each main version (no infobox for the variants). Currently the infobox just looks like a mess with parentahsis after each value and with values for parameters "first appearance" reflecting only one version. --Gonnym (talk) 20:50, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

On this I agree. Just like how the Wish Realm versions of Henry Mills and Killian Jones have infoboxes separate from the main versions--Fradio71 (talk) 20:54, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Gonnym Please don't misunderstand me. I only mentioned that the Thawne-Wells was always Thawne to bolster my assertion that the E1 Wells should be in a separate section of his own. The Wells that we are introduced to was always Thawne and he was supposed to be destroyed at the end of Season One. That would have left the character as a one-off posting in The Flash, just like Eddie Thawne is. But, since both the character and Tom Cavanaugh were so popular, the creators brought them both back as Harry and Matt Letscher in Season Two, and the whole thing has snowballed from there. So, the Thawne-Wells should be mentioned here in this article, especially in light of his appearances in "Crisis on Earth-X" and the current Season Five. Ooznoz (talk) 21:36, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

My argument didn't realize because of something you said, as I've always thought this, but this just gave me an excuse to say so. Thawne-Wells is not Wells, and it matters not if it is the same actor. At the end of the day, the story arc of that character is connected to the whole arch of Thawne. If and when that character will have an article, I'll make a more concrete proposal to move this section, but since there is no article, no reason to dwell on it now. --Gonnym (talk) 21:40, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Gonnym Thanks for that. Ooznoz (talk) 21:45, 6 February 2019 (UTC)Ooznoz

So is anything being done on this now? I'm fine with any decision as long as an important character is not treated the same way as a skit character. Kailash29792 (talk) 08:25, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Seems we're ok with splitting the infoboxes. I'll do that now. Could you find pictures for them while I do this? --Gonnym (talk) 08:34, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for creating multiple infoboxes since it has reduced the clutter. I'm not sure if WP:NFCC allows multiple non-free images in the same article, so I'll use the existing image in the lead along with a caption of who's who. Kailash29792 (talk) 09:08, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Spinning-off Thawne

By this I mean something identical to corporate spin-off: when a company splits off a section as a separate business. Only this case, I'm not suggesting to create an article titled Eobard Thawne (Arrowverse), but transferring all the content to Eobard Thawne#Arrowverse (if it is already too large, the article creating idea is better). The reason is, this shouldn't become a case of WP:COATRACK as the article is about Harrison Wells, not Tom-Cavanagh-as-anyone-resembling-Wells. The Ozzy Mandias, Ooznoz, JokEobard and Gonnym, your suggestions are welcome. --Kailash29792 (talk) 04:31, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. We should have never merged them together since they are completely different characters. A simple line at best on this article stating that Eobard Thawne uses the form of Harrison Wells is all that is needed. I wouldn't be completely opposed to a new article being created if there's enough details apart from the plot points. - Brojam (talk) 04:47, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Good idea. The section, while still technically talking about Thawne, should be written as if it is about E1 Wells, but include the plot twists, along with the impact of Thawne's actions on E1 Wells' legacy. I've begun work on it, and if anyone thinks it's a bad idea, somebody stop me! --Kailash29792 (talk) 04:58, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

I removed the Thawne stuff from Wells' section at List of The Flash characters when I noticed it a few days ago. This info should have never been here. The Ozzy Mandias (talk) 09:45, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

While I continue to remove Thawne-related info here, what should be the "first appearance" for E1 Wells' infobox now be? Even though correctly it was "Tricksters", the pilot episode is where we are introduced to "Harrison Wells". --Kailash29792 (talk) 10:02, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

I think it should be "Tricksters" as it is Thawne posing as him in all the previous episodes. The Ozzy Mandias (talk) 10:32, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

I've stated that long ago that Eobard Thawne is a wholly different character that doesn't really belong here. I think his story arc has enough weight for a stand-alone article, seeing as how he's been a major Villain in most seasons of The Flash and a major one for a season of Legends, while also taking part in at least two annual crossovers. I'm also sure that there are enough RS that talk about the actors and the character out of universe for said article. --Gonnym (talk) 12:55, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

First appearance

Though we are introduced to "Harrison Wells" in the pilot (2014), the twist revealed later is that it is Thawne, with the real Wells introduced in "Tricksters" (2015). This made me wonder which episode to mention under "first appearance" in the infobox. While one user above mentioned "Tricksters", Bignole said, "Technically, Wells was introduced in 2014. Just like say Jason Voorhees was introduced in 1980, even though it was only a dream." So I went ahead with 2014. JokEobard, thoughts? Kailash29792 (talk) 19:15, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I do maintain that Wells' first appearance should be listed as "Tricksters" (2015) for the simple reason that Harrison Wells and Eobard Thawne are two entirely separate characters. It is for this precise reason that, despite masquerading as Wells for the majority of the first season (and even retaining Wells' form throughout subsequent seasons), Thawne is not part of this article on Harrison Wells. He is not in the infobox image, he does not have his own biographical section, and no information is given on Tom Cavanagh's performance as Thawne/"Wells" in season one. All of this information can, of course, be found on a separate article because Wells and Thawne have no relation to one another besides being portrayed by the same actor.

Listing Wells' first appearance as "Pilot" (2014) would be no different from listing Jay Garrick's first appearance as the season two premiere, despite the fact that it was Hunter Zolomon falsely posing as Garrick all along. The real Garrick did not actually appear until much later in the second season, and the same can be said for the real Harrison Wells in season one. JokEobard (talk) 05:26, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

You go by the credit, not the "in-universe" truth. Thus, Wells is listed for the pilot.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 04:17, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

That was before JokEobard changed it to "Tricksters". I have changed it back to "Pilot" using your Voorhees logic. Basically, I think it should count for a person's likeness, regardless of how genuine the appearance be. Kailash29792 (talk) 05:14, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

A additional side note the opening of the article states this is about multiple characters so multiple first appearances. OLI 23:53, 14 September 2023 (UTC)