Talk:Johnny "Guitar" Watson

Hendrix Did not Cover Gangster Of Love

This is a one of many bogus tracks claiming to be by hendrix released by Johnny Brantley, it is in fact a Jimmy Norman single "Gangster of love (part 1) / Gangster of love (part 2)" on JOSIE 45-994 in or shortly after march 1968, arranged by Ed Bland, produced by Johnny Brantley for Vidalia Productions. Original version of this song (also known as "Love bandit") was recorded (and composed) by Johnny "Guitar" Watson, produced by Bumps Blackwell, and released on Keen Records in 1958. This recording seems to have wah wah on the guitar, so that automatically rules out Hendrix, as (once more with feeling) the effect wasn't available until 1967. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jameselmo (talk • contribs) 15:09, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I was following you up until that last sentence. Hendrix is renowned for his use of the wah-wah pedal and put out a wealth of material after 1967. So how would the use of wah-wah "automatically rule out" Hendrix? That's not to say the GOL recording is Hendrix -- it obviously isn't -- I'm just saying your statement about the wah-wah pedal makes no sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.91.74.103 (talk) 14:10, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

The issue is the date - there wasn't any wah-way pedal in 1958. Whatever effect is being used by studio gimcrackery would not have been covered by Jimi. 50.111.26.134 (talk) 21:41, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

WATSON DID NOT INFLUENCE HENDRIX

There is no contemporary evidence that Watson influenced Hendrix in any way. Any stage moves Hendrix used were old established routines going back to the earliest records of "Blues/R&B/Jazz" performers.Jameselmo (talk) 01:27, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

We'd also like to see a reference from a scholarly tome on Hendrix to back up Watson's influence.50.111.26.134 (talk) 21:34, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Typos in this article

Stevie Ray's last name is "Vaughan", not "Vaughn". (See the Wikipedia's own article on the man.)

193.205.213.166 (talk) 10:19, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

claim of virtuosity

The dead link can't be found to back up the "Watson, a recognized master of the Fender Stratocaster..." claim, nor have I read anything remotely like this in any Rock mag or book. While he was a good player with a certain style, his name just doesn't pop up in the way that people like Jimi Hendrix, Robin Trower, Jeff Beck, Buddy Guy, etc., do - comes across as fan cruft.50.111.26.134 (talk) 21:37, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

"Watson was "the most inimitable exponent of the Fender Stat" is Eric Clapton's view..."? [1]? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:47, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Very dubious source, that book is some piece of self published (Amazon Createspace) fluff and the quote itself has no original source.

Youtube videos

If there are Youtube videos with correct copyright information, why are these "inappropriate" as inline sources? Simply because they are primary sources? What could be a better information source than the song itself? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:34, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Singles

Would it not be better to at least try and seek some sources, rather than to simply delete the whole list? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:32, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Non-charting singles

1954 Space Guitar / Half-Pint A-Whiskey (Federal 12175) 1956 Three Hours Past Midnight /Ruben (RPM 455) 1957 Gangster of Love / One Room Country Shack (Keen 3-4005) 1960 Johnny Guitar / Untouchable (Arvee 5016) 1960 Falling In Love / Rat Now (Goth 101) 1961 Looking Back / The Eagle Is Back (Escort 106) 1962 Cuttin' In / Broke and Lonely (King 5579) (French cover by Johnny Hallyday: Excuse-moi partenaire) 1963 Gangster of Love / In the Evenin' (King 5774) 1964 Ain't Gonna Move / Baby Don't Leave (Jowat 118) 1965 Big Bad Wolf / You Can Stay (Magnum 726) 1966 Keep on Lovin' You / South Like West (Okeh 7263) 1967 Hold On, I'm Comin' / Wolfman (Okeh 7270) 1967 Johnny Watson and Larry Williams – Mercy, Mercy, Mercy / A Quitter Never Wins (Okeh 7274) 1967 Johnny Watson and Larry Williams – Too Late / Two for the Price of One (Okeh 7281) 1967 I'd Rather Be Your Baby / Soul Food (Okeh 7290) 1967 Johnny Watson and Larry Williams – Find Yourself Someone To Love / Nobody (Okeh 7300) 1967 She'll Blow Your Mind / Crazy About You (Okeh 7302) 1973 Like Not Your Man / You Bring Love (Fantasy 721) 1975 It's Too Late / Tripping (Fantasy 752) 1976 Ain't That A Bitch / Won't You Forgive Me Baby (DJM 1020) 1976 I Wanna Ta-Ta Ya 1976 I Need It / Since I Met You Baby 1976 Superman Lover / We're No Exception 1977 A Real Mother For Ya / Nothing Left To Be Desired (DJM 1024) 1977 Lover Jones / Tarzan (DJM 1029) 1977 It's A Damn Shame / Love That Will Not Die (DJM 1034) 1977 The Real Deal / Tarzan 1978 Gangster of Love / Guitar Disco (DJM 1101) 1978 Virginia's Pretty Funky / The Institute (DJM 1100) (The Watsonian Institute) 1978 Miss Frisco (Queen of the Disco) / Tu Jours Amour 1978 I Need It / Superman Lover 1979 What The Hell Is This? / Can You Handle It (DJM 1106)

"Guitar"

Just to note, although the quote marks were used on his first (1963) King album, as shown here, his second (1965) Chess album used parentheses and his third (1967) Okeh album omitted the "Guitar". After that he dropped the quotes. So the name of this article is a bit misleading. I guess it's Wikipedia style to include them, as it was not his actual name, a bit like John "Rabbit" Bundrick and Ken "Snakehips" Johnson, etc. But he stopped using them on his albums. The variety of names used for his prodigious singles output was quite a mix, as can been seen here. e.g. the quotes were gone as early as 1964's "Wait A Minute Baby" on Highland. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:23, 25 April 2024 (UTC) [2]

Although on his singles the "Guitar" billing reappeared by the mid 1970s. Perhaps if the opening line of the article was altered to "John Watson Jr. (February 3, 1935 – May 17, 1996),[3] often known professionally as Johnny "Guitar" Watson... (The bolding is merely to highlight the change, not to be used in the article itself) - then that might be more accurate (for the pedants that oft abound) ? The body of the article might need slight adjustments to clearly explain the ever changing names, although confusion may ensue ! - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 19:48, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. He also started off (on Federal) as "Young John Watson"! Martinevans123 (talk) 19:58, 25 April 2024 (UTC) "... the pedants that oft abound"? Whatever can you mean. But, regarding "confusion", yes, that's why the self-explanatory 45cat.com is so much more useful!

Yeah, the Young John Watson naming is mentioned in the infobox and the main article's wording, so that seems covered. I did not mean you when stating 'pedants' - there are more than enough around already ! Perhaps an external link to the "hopelessly unreliable" user-generated 45cat.com might enlighten readers ? - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 20:21, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

ikr. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:39, 25 April 2024 (UTC) - Tee hee. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 12:58, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I have been bold and included 'often' in the opening sentence and put the alternate billing of 'Johnny Watson' in the info box. With you kindly adding the 45cat external link, I think that should push the article the right way. Thanks. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 12:58, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks, Derek. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Quote

This passage was added here on 10:04, 5 August 2006, by IP 64.203.132.17:

"Jimi Hendrix covered "Gangster of Love." Rumors persist that he stole much of his stage show and even arrangements from his colleague. Watson often became irritated whenever asked about comparisons between him and Jimi: "I used to play the guitar standing on my hands. I had a 150-foot cord and I could get on top of the auditorium--those things Jimi Hendrix was doing, I started that s--t." Most historians agree that Watson was "picking with the teeth" before Hendrix."

But it has been unsourced ever since then. Is there any WP:RS source for this quote and the other claims? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Hmm. Large additions added without references are often copyvios, though whatever link the IP could have copied from is probably dead by now Mach61 12:10, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

OTOH, if it was a copyvio, that means a source exists for it Mach61 12:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, also my suspicion. I'm surprised if anyone would just make that up. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:26, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, I am drawing a blank on this on the internet - apart from sites which have obviously copied from here. Perhaps the 'quote' comes from a book (although I possess The Blues - From Robert Johnson to Robert Cray - ISBN 1-85868-255-X, and it's not mentioned therein). Possibly an urban myth ? - these sorts of exotic proclamations often are just that. Whatever, if we can not find a WP:RS, it stays out. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 14:57, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

His auditorium roaming, and his playing behind his head and with his teeth, are mentioned with a good source (Ritz 1999) at Space Guitar. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:09, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Good job we've got that vital first comma in the statement "He was also a flamboyant performer and played the guitar with his teeth, behind his head, and while roaming through the audience and beyond – tricks in the style of Walker and Guitar Slim. Joking apart, it still does not match the wording of what was in this article before. I presume it was this Walker ? - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:34, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Performers borrow from other performers - it is surely not a big deal. But a source for Watson's claims - in similar but not identical words - is here. "Watson claims to have invented the musical and performing style later made famous by Jimi Hendrix – teeth-picking, handstands, and an aggressive, vocal guitar tone – responding indignantly to an interviewer who compared him to the ‘60s icon, “I started that shit!” Watson’s career is punctuated by these ostentatious (but probably true) digs about his stymied fame: in the self-penned liner notes of his Funk Anthology compilation he also claims to have “invented” rap music on his 1980 track “Telephone Bill.” But he delivers these digs not so much with resentment, as with the implication that those who really know the roots of funk and rock and roll will recognize his enduring influence." Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Can we believe that one, dated 2017? Watson was born a good 7 years before Hendrix and enjoyed commercial success long before, so it's "probably" all true. (Annie wasn't a patch on Ena with full reverb and tremolo!) Martinevans123 (talk) 15:48, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

The specific quote about standing on his hands, etc., seems to come from Colin Larkin's Encyclopedias - at leasr as far back as the 1992 edition. It seems a simple job to add a citation. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:34, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Excellent stuff! Martinevans123 (talk) 16:36, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, after all that, I dug out my 'concise' edition of Larkin's tome as already cited elsewhere in the article (hernia operation now required), and typed in the quotation - just like that. That book also states that "'Gangster of Love' (later adopted by Steve Miller)" - although it is worth pointing out that it does not elaborate, as the wording in this article does do - about more of Miller's appropriation. I think those couple of sentences or so are all that is now unreferenced in the 'Influence' section. Where now ? - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 18:34, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Well done, Derek. I've added a {cn} tag for now, instead of just removing wholesale. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:49, 8 May 2024 (UTC) And to cheer you up, here's an informative article on Hernia and Lysander.

Come on guys, it's not that hard.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:26, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

See, we are really getting somewhere. More digging unearths Amy Hanson's review of Steve Miller's Sailor LP, where she states "And, of course, this is the LP that introduced many to the Johnny "Guitar" Watson classic "Gangster of Love," a song that would become almost wholly Miller's own, giving the fans an alter ego to caress long before "The Joker" arose to show his hand". Does the team think that both are sufficient to use to underpin the couple or so unreferenced sentences I mentioned earlier ? If so, and talking of Sailor, I may celebrate with a "Glass of Champagne". I am here all week, folks ! - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 19:33, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Derek, ever thought of taking Fridays off? But yes, I think those sources will support most of that para. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I can't afford to take Fridays off. That's when I mention my matinee appearances at the weekend - seats in all parts, you know. Okay, do I then sway the panel with this article, further linking "Gangster of Love", "Space Cowboy" and "The Joker" ? You're a hard crowd to please... - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 20:12, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Looks good to me. (Do you do non-binary vegan weddings and bar-mitzvahs?) Martinevans123 (talk) 20:22, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Why not just rewrite the para to support the refs we have? {{puzzled look}} Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:16, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Which is what I have now done. Phew. My wording still feels a little lumpy, but it is at least well referenced lumpy dumpy. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:49, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Nah, Lovey Dovey, surely? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I have given the whole article a long, slow read, (and run out of colons) and feel that there are still areas not well covered by references. Primarily and largely the 'Later career' section. Before I plough on in a wine gum addled fashion, others thoughts are welcomed. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 15:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Somewhat belatedly, I have added some more references to the article. Do other editors feel the article is now sufficently sourced, or is more needed ? Thanks. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Cheers, Derek. Great improvements. Looks ok to me. Was that "Very Best Of" liner notes ref for the 1981 DJM album or for the 1999 Rhino one? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:00, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I think it was the 1999 Blues Masters: The Very Best Of Johnny "Guitar" Watson (Rhino Records) one. The trouble is I can not seem to find the liner notes now - but the album is detailed here. I will make the reference more precise. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 14:40, 3 September 2024 (UTC)