Talk:Kelly Holmes

Improvement

Let's get this up to featured standard, then it can be displayed in December when she wins the BBC Sports Personality of the Year

• Name of army unit -- in Sunday Times.
• name of coach at school
• name of physio because of injuries.

Dunc_Harris|☺ 15:55, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

From a Guardian.co.uk profile here, I've added the coach's name (David Arnold) and the army units (Women's Royal Auxilery Corp and Adjutants General Corps). Angmering 16:06, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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What does one of the only black children on her estate in the Early life section mean? Can this be fixed? --JBellis 12:10, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I take it to mean 'one of the few black children in her neighbourhood'. I have deleted this statement since it does not appear to be that relevant.David D. 22:07, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

adding a link to Dame Kelly Holmes Official website?

Hi i think it would be a good idea to add a link that goes to Dame Kelly Holmes Official Website http://www.doublegold.co.uk Her website is full of interesting info on her own activities as a sports motivator in the UK + great photos of her athletic career and post athletic career + loads more features that can be appreciated by sports fans and the general public. I am not sure how to do this or if i can actually do this myself can someone help? thanks you —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Flooublegold (talk • contribs) 11:52, 28 January 2007 (UTC).

She made one cut for each day...

It says that she became depressed, and that she meditated with an english lantern. She made one cut for every day....

Did she cut the lantern? It reads like the lantern is made of paper like a chinese lantern, and that she has cut it. Then it goes on to talk about her self harm. Seems like it needs a new paragraph to explain that the cuts she made were self harm? where did she make the cuts ? how many cuts did she make if she was making them daily? I feel these facts are equally important as the fact that she used scissors to make the cuts as i have just seen her on tv and she looks great with no cuts visible on her arms and legs? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rabidnz (talk • contribs)

Not promoted from MBE, separate divisions

It's DBE MBE (Mil.) Not just "DBE"; "DBE (promoted from MBE)" is even worse. The reason is that they are two separate division of the Order of the British Empire. You can, as Holmes has, be appointed to both divisions. She was originally appointed in the Military division because she was a soldier. I realise that this is one of the more obscure vagaries of the British honours system, but it's the sort of thing that people should leave alone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.122.249 (talk) 19:58, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

This has been asserted many times in relation to this article, and I've never seen a citation for it. Is there one? Proteus (Talk) 22:23, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

1. It's been correct for quite a while (as in consensus) but Olympic fever has brought out people.
2. Point two, is the original research of people like user:Mabelina and user:Necrothesp who quite frankly are cluelessly and clumsily editing in good faith because they haven't done their research. They can't even agree on the version that they think it should be, apart from not being the correct one.
3. But yes there is. For example, if you read her autobiography she says how she got to keep her MBE medal when she received the DBE. If she'd been appointed in the same division she'd have to hand it back. And she'd just be DBE. I don't have a copy for a page number. It would do good for editors to actually read for a change.

1. Here is another example: John Houlder CBE MBE (Mil.) DSC [1]

# Ernest Gordon Lewis O.B.E., M.B.E. (Mil.) [2]

# W.R.G. Atkins, C.B.E., O.B.E.(Mil.) [3]

# Sir Reginald Swartz KBE MBE (Mil.) [4]

Can we have any exampels of the other bizarre forms that people are trying to introduce? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.122.249 (talk) 17:12, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Keeping the medal, or not, is a red herring. The usage of postnominals is determined by the Order of Wear (current version promulgated in 2003), which can be seen here http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/56878/supplements/3351. It makes no mention of using different postnoms for awards in different divisions of the order. You simply use the highest ones, she is DBE, plain and simple, though of course it's perfectly proper to mention the previous MBE in the text of the article. None of the references provided are to definitive sources. David Underdown (talk) 11:11, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

By the way, here is the Gazette entry for the MBE http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/55155/supplements/6 - seems to have eluded people up to now. David Underdown (talk) 11:19, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

David, thanks for the link. Firstly, thanks for the gazette entry for the MBE; http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/55155/supplements/6 - seems to have eluded people up to now. It also shows that it is the military division, as I said. Unfortunately I don't think that the Order of Wear is especially relevant, as it fails to discuss the issue one way or the other. It doesn't discuss divisions within orders but only the order of orders. and it doesn't discuss post-nominal letters

I think we are making a little progress and can discount the following two forms (one of which is on the page at the moment thanks to user:Courcelles):

• 1 DBE (promoted from MBE (Mil.)) - this is user:Mabelina's good faith idea. It just happens also to be ridiculous, inane, original research, not based on convention.
• 2. DBE (previously MBE (mil.) - this is user:Necrothesp good faith idea, which is the current protected version, is also ridiculous for the same reason,

That leaves two other realistic options:

• 3 DBE MBE (Mil.) - this is the consensus version and fits known facts, and precedence elsewhere as demonstrated above.
• 4 DBE - This is correctish (it ignore the MBE) but doesn't fit with the facts.

It may be that both version are not incorrect, and it may be left to judgement?

Just to recap then: There are two divisions of the Order of the British Empire, Civil and Military. When Holmes was appointed MBE in 1998 she was a soldier in the Adjutant General's Corps. When she was subsequently awarded the DBE in the 2005 New Years Honours, she was appointed to the Civil Division. Normally, if you're upgraded within one division, you return the previous medal and subsequently use only the higher letters. However, because she has been appointed to both divisions, she is entitled to wear both medals in a medal set, and hence also is able to use both letters after her name. There is an undeniable logic in this, and it also fits with examples given above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.122.249 (talk) 16:57, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't state that this situation is special (and makes no mention of the possibilty of the use of Mil - or Civ? - to make this sort of distinction). Unless you can find a citation from an official source that states both sets of postnoms should be used in this case, there is no reason to do anything different to normal, which is just to use the highest set of postnoms. Also I note that the final postnoms in the first of your examples above should be DSc (Doctor of Science, an honorary doctorate) - not DSC (Distinguished Service Cross), David Underdown (talk) 20:08, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Furthermore, there is indeed a case mentioend in the Order of Wear where it specifically states that the insignia of a lower grade is retained and worn, when the appointment was made for gallantry between particular dates. See http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/56878/supplements/3353 (which is followed by the information on letters after the name (ie postnominals). No other exception to the normal rule is made. It is possible that the 1983 order of wear laid out the rules differently, which may explain the variations, but the 2003 one is the current one, and we should follow its directions. Frankly, the only original research I can see here is from you, trying to apply unique rules to this situation. The standard thing would be to list simply as DBE and mention the earlier award in the article text (and maybe both in the awards section of the infobox, if that exists for the infobox used in this article)l

David. Thank you for your input, but you're wandering very much off topic:

The suggestion that "DBE MBE (Mil)" is "original research" is utter nonsense. What worse is the "I'm the only one who is conducting original research". This was the consensus version prior to the 2012 olympics. Yet utter rubbish, i.e. "DBE (promoted from MBE (Mil.))" or "DBE (previously MBE (mil.)" which are both completely new and original forms invented by two Wikipedians are somheow worse that this? How?

"It doesn't state that this situation is special" - what doesn't state what? As I've explained, the sources that you've provide don't discuss this situation, i.e appointment to both divisions of the order and specifically the order of postnominal letters. You are the one conducting original research by interpreting that source to try to get it to state something that it simply doesn't discuss.

# As for your irrelevancies and attempts at distraction, I am aware that DSC is Distinguished Service Cross, and DSc is a doctorate. It's not relevant here. The point that was made stands despite that typo since it illustrates the correct form of someone appointed to both divisions of the Order). This as we expect is actually quite rare.

Let's have a look at the facts, again to avoid irrelevant distractions that you've introduced:

1. She was originally appointed MBE in the military division. She was thus entitled to wear the MBE medal and MBE after her name.
2. She was subsequently appointed DBE in the civil division. Because she was appointed to the different civil division, she did not have to upgrade her MBE medal.
3. Thus she can wear both medals
4. There are sources for all of this; it's in her autobiography.
5. Since she can wear both medals
6. Since she can wear both medals, she can place both sets of letters after her name.
7. The correct convention for doing this is DBE MBE (Mil.) as illustrated by the examples above.

Which part of this is "original research"???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.122.249 (talk) 17:10, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Here is a relevant source, which is not entirely on topic but which instead refers to the Order of Australia, which is modelled on the Order of the British Empire [5] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.122.249 (talk) 17:19, 14 August 2012 (UTC) It states:

<quote> Persons appointed to the Order of Australia are entitled to the postnominal letters ‘AC’, ‘AO’, ‘AM’ or ‘OAM’ according to the level of the appointment. ‘(Mil)’ may be added to distinguish an appointment in the Military Division by those who also hold an appointment in General Division.</quote>

Here are some more relevant examples:

• Sir Albert Rodrigues/Sir Alberto Rodrigues CBE, MBE(Mil) [6]
• Herbert Kienzle/Bert Kienzle CBE, MBE (Mil) [7]
• Harald Leslie, Lord Birsay CBE, MBE (Mil) (Wikipedia page)
• George Bartrum Baker CBE MBE (Mil.)
• D.A. Patterson CBE MBE (Mil.) [8]
• Francis John Gillingham CBE MBE (Mil.) [9]
• Hugh de Wardener CBE MBE (Mil.) (Wikipedia page)
• Francis Robinson Gladstone Duckworth, C.B.E., M.B.E. (MIL.) [10]
• Alan Dawtry CBE MBE (Mil.) [11] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.122.249 (talk) 19:31, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
• Allan Fleming CBE OBE (Mil.) [12]
• Sir Henry Wigley, KBE, OBE (Mil) [13] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.122.249 (talk) 19:38, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
• Air Vice Marshal George Henry Morley CB CBE (Mil.) OBE [14]
• Sir Samuel Henry Egerton Barraclough KBE CBE (Mil.) [15]

Here is a source:

"Because I received my MBE under the name of Sergeant Holmes, it counts as a military award rather than a civilian one, so that when I was invested as a Dame I didn't have to give the honour up - something I was really pleased about"

— Black, White and Gold (2005 edition), page 148/chapter 14 "Injury Time"

Here is the source: [16]

I now note that user:Mabelina is bizarrely promoting disregarded option 2, which was user:Necrothesp extremely good faith editing, namely "DBE (previously MBE (mil.))" as opposed to his equally extremely good faith, option "DBE (promoted from MBE (Mil.)). Neither of these is correct in any way, shape or form, and the only thing of worth that can be said is that they are in good faith. Please stop and use the correct form, thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.122.249 (talk) 17:58, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

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External links modified

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All in the Mind

This article could mention that Kelly Holmes has appeared on the BBC Radio Four series "All in the Mind". Vorbee (talk) 20:12, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, added. --Wire723 (talk) 09:28, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

pre-Athens athletics career

I have added a section for her pre-athens athletic career. ideally it would be good to make it somewhat longer but in the meantime I figured something beats nothing. Firestar47 (talk) 11:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)