Talk:Luxembourgish

(False)Endangered status claims

This section should be reworked. It is mainly based on what is NOT a press article, but a 1:1 copy-paste of press release by a political organization (WEE 2050, which became part of the right-wing ADR) and one article on a blog. At the moment the section reads like the arguments of these right-wingers, which is not the reality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.136.9.227 (talk) 10:16, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Language etiquette

Question Hi. Can anyone tell me tell me more about the linguistic etiquette in Luxembourg. I am a native english-speaker but I also speak French and High German but not Luxembourgish. If I go to Luxembourg which language should I use to talk to people in the shops, on the streets etc?

Luxembourgish...if possible. Otherwise, rather french than german. Bababu 21:16, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

In Luxembourg City and in the South East around Esch sur Alzette French is very dominant. Alot of shop workers are French people who commute into Luxembourg to work and so don't speak Luxembourgish. Outside the city Luxembourgish is the main language and as it is so close to German it is probably easiest to speak to people in German rather than French as some people's French is not that great. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.246.106.4 (talk) 16:47, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

As a Luxembourger, I would probably try and speak Luxembourgish with the shopkeepers. If they don't speak Luxembourgish, the workforce is then most likely to speak French, and if not French, then they are most likely to speak German. 86.156.98.235 (talk) 18:13, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

It should be noted that bigger stores and shops have started to train their staff to speak Luxembourgish, so currently (2012) you'll be able to speak Luxembourgish in more stores than a few years back. However, French is still the most common language. --2001:7E8:C686:6901:B074:4BB0:F5D3:CB1C (talk) 12:32, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

?

quote: "For example, the name for a bus driver is Buschauffeur which would be Busfahrer in German and Chauffeur de bus in French."

Buschauffeur is the name for a bus driver which is also used in the Netherlands (and in Belgium?). Is Luxembourgisch not a mix of german, french and dutch (i.e flemish)?

No, it's not. Bababu 21:16, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Luxembourgish permits compounds where two words can come from different language families. It is very common to mix Romance and Germanic words into one Luxembourgish compound, such as "Buschauffeur". <chauffeur> can be either pronounced /ʃo:fɐ/ or /ʃo:fœr/, the first pronunciation being closer to native Luxembourgish phonology, especially with the word-final /ɐ/. 86.156.98.235 (talk) 18:17, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Buschauffeur is a German word too, it's just not that much in use any-more.--2001:A61:2135:6F01:F892:AC09:BB52:5390 (talk) 20:15, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

related?

Is this related to other dialects of Low German? If so, say so.

It isn't.

But to High German dialects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.142.56.170 (talk) 16:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, technically, it is, but not that closely. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:42, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

virtually identical

I have been told that the language spoken by a Germanic minority in Transylvania (Siebenbürger Sachsen in German) is virtually identical to Luxembourgish. According to the German Wikipedia, they were settlers in the 12 century that came from the Mosel region. Does anybody know more about their language? Should it be included here? pir 00:25, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

thats true!

---

I found a website ( Siebenbürgen und die Siebenbürger Sachsen (German)) on which they say that the cities over there have been promoted by Sigismund of Luxembourg (1387-1437). Maybe this information can help this discussion.

--Jangli 07:45, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

---

This was added recently:

//correction// ...the verb to propose is proposéieren from the French proposer, which in German would be vorschlagen, in Nordluxembourgish it means fierschloen.

Does this mean that the Luxembourgish verb "to propose" is "fierschloen" and not "proposéieren"? Or am I missing something? Acegikmo1 04:33, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Both exist and are used interchangeably with similar frequency. I dond't really know what the difference is really, maybe it's historical - there was a tendency by people wanting to appear as very posh to use words derived from French (fr:proposer ->lux:proposéieren) ; after the WW2 Nazi occupation there was a tendency to avoid words that were extremely similar to German (de:vorschlagen -> lux:fierschloen). I don't know, and all this is primary research, really. - pir 09:21, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I am replacing it with 'Buschauffeur'

--Stereo 02:02, 2004 Oct 11 (UTC)

Luxembourgish has dialects like any other language. The more rural and the further away from France the more words originate in Germanic languages. French (i.e. Alsace) and German (Mosel, Saar and Eifel) dialects near Luxembourg are close, although clearly dialects as opposed to Luxembourgish.

Sorry, but firstly, Luxembourg shares a border with Lorraine, not with Alsace. And secondly, in the adjacent areas of Lorraine, no dialect of French is spoken, but only Standard French and, by older persons, a German dialect that is closely related to Luxembourgish. --129.35.231.17 14:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Strange phrase for an article

I can die happy now that I know how to say butcher's son in Luxembourgish.[[User:Nricardo|--Nelson Ricardo >>Talk<<]] 02:39, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

Should we have some more strange Luxembourgish words, like 'fixfeier'?

Conflicting statement re intelligibility

Not sure if I'm reading the article wrong, but I think there are 2 conflicting statements:

• "it is not intelligible to most Germans as it is more than just a German dialect"
• "It is relatively easy for German speakers to understand Luxembourgish"

Can anyone clarify which is the case? Thanks. munt fish 15:58, 2005 Feb 16 (UTC)

I suppose you have to qualify what you German stands for in this case. Luxembourgish is relatively easy to understand for someone from, say, Trier while is not intelligible for someone from Munich. Both people in Trier and Munich are considered German-speakers even though their local dialects differ substantially. rgr Mar 30, 2005

Probably it means that german speakers can easily understand written luxembourgish but can hardly understand spoken luxemburgish (except germans from Bitburg-Trier region). As a Luxembourgeois (or Luxemburger) I can't understand spoken flamish, dutch or afrikaans, but I can undertsand the sense of a newspaper article in these languages. Pitter.

Being from Trier I can confirm Pitter's addition. I can understand Luxembourgish, but I do rely on the speaker's goodwill. There is no doubt that it would be very difficult for native German speakers from other areas (we call ourselves Mosel Franks) to follow a conversation in Luxemburgish. I also have my doubts that reading it is any easier than listening. Isn't the written language based unusally close to the phonetics? Whenever I get my hands on the "Luxemburger Wort" with some articles in Luxemburgish I have to read it out in my head. I'll probably even move my lips.doh' CB

PS> It's a beautiful language. Some native speaker has to add more interesting terms. i.e. how to order a beer, or how to beg for forgiveness if you've been trying to strike up a conversation and assumed everyone speaks German or French.

I am from the Frankfurt area and I have no problems at all with the Palatinate dialects (geographically close to Luxembourg). But I can neither follow a conversation in Luxembourgish nor in the dialect of Trier. Reading Luxembourgish, on the other hand, is not really a problem, as I can take my time. --Unoffensive text or character 14:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Added Template

Just added a template. [[Haverton 00:36, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)]]

Luxembourg

By the way it is not true that German people easily understand Luxembourgish. I have experienced many times, that Germans actually do not understand at all what was said when I was speaking in Luxembourgish to my friends or my family. Indeed all the Germans I have met during my studies, actually pointed out to me that it could not be a dialect, as they could not understand it. That people in Trier understand us is quite normal, as it is like 5 minutes from Luxembourg!

^^^^ I dissagree with this statement, its true that Luxembourgish is not "totally" mutually intelligeble with High German but the differences between the two languages when spoken are not extreme and Luxembourgish is closer to High German that many dialects of German spoken in Germany and just about all dialects of German spoken in Switzerland. As far as all the German you met saying it was not a dialect because they couldn't understand well that says nothing because Germans from northern Germany have great difficulty understanding dialects spoken in Bavaria. Swiss television programs (in German) are broadcasted in Germany with subtitles for an example. Because of its official status and cultural acceptance it is accurate to say Luxembourgish is not a dialect, but not because it is not understood by native speakers of High German. The two are very closely pronounced with very similar vocabularies.--84.153.15.166 18:18, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

---

I have been living with a Luxembourgish family (with 5 children under the age of 13) for 6 months and the opposite is true: speaking Letzebuergisch does not mean it's a breeze to learn German. Children still study it as a formal academic subject and some still have a very difficult time with it. Understanding seems to go well -- cable television offers only 2 channels in Luxembourgish, a variety in German and French, with a few in English, Italian and Portuguese. I only ever see the children watching the channels in German because it is by far the easiest to understand, but when a German family comes to visit the children are visibly taxed to compose dialogue in High German. French is a completely different language, and learning it is very counter-intuitive and difficult for (most) native Luxembourgish speakers. My assessment: Luxembourgish is indeed a mix of German, French and Dutch/Flemmish, but is different from each of these languages to make none of them immediately "mutually intelligible." To the untrained ear it does sound like German, and I think it is by far closer to German than any of the others, but even someone who speaks a little German will hear the difference.

---

Luxemburgish is essentially a German dialect pronounced a language for political reasons. It would not considered to be a language if Luxemburg wasn't an independent country. It's virtually identical to dialects in Germany across the border, who are considered German by their speakers. Anyway, Luxemburg is now officially tri-lingual: French, Luxemburgish, Standard German, where the local language can be considered any of the latter two, depending on situation.

It's true that Luxemburgish has more French loans than Standard German, but calling it a "mix" of French and German is a bit of a misrepresentation. It's a West Germanic language with loan words. But I don't think that Dutch has a strong influence on it. Luxemburgish is Middle German, not Low German.

Regards 213.73.65.74 01:18, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Luxembourgish is not virtually identical with dialects from across the border. That's not a matter of number of loan words, either. Hunsrueck, Eifel, Saar and Mosel area cover a lot of different dialects (including more speakers than Luxembourgish). They are all clearly part of the German language. Yet the difference to their neighbours across in Luxembourg is quite fundamental and has been so before their relatively recent autonomy.

The sound of the language

I recently took a trip to Luxembourg to visit with family that I have there. I only have a smattering of knowledge of the 3 langauges (German, French, or Luxembourgish) - this comes from visiting family every several years and taking some French in high school a long time ago.

I tried to pay close attention to the languages spoken so that I could at least tell what language was spoken when. My family all spoke Luxembourgish and a smattering of english. On the few occasions that someone spoke French or German it was like night and day.

The German that I heard was very gutteral and sounded much more rough than the Luxembourgish that I was becoming used to hearing. The French had a more smooth and the sound flowed smoother than Luxembourgish.

I often listen to RTL.lu online to help get more familiar with the language as most of its broadcasting is in Luxembourgish, but don't be surprised to hear some French and a bit of German - especially from call-ins and what not.

A good source of modern German, French and Luxembourgish can be found on the RTL radio broadcasts available online Visit

  http://www.RTL.lu
  http://www.RTL.de
  http://www.RTL.fr

and look for live radio. Listen to the DJs and hear the differences in the languages.

Note that there are three different RTL companies, depending on the country. RTL.lu has nothing got to do with RTL.de and RTL.fr. All despite their common history. 147.143.96.47 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:56, 15 November 2011 (UTC).

Arcelor

Regarding the exemplary phrases: I don't speak Letzebuergesch, but does Arcelor really mean asshole? Why would a large steel company from Luxembourg call itself so Arcelor? Blur4760 07:56, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

No it doesn't, of course!

Well, as I said, I thought it very unlikely myself, I just could not imagine that a registered user would be so, let's say, daring as to put something on there if it were untrue. Plus, a certain phonetic proximity between the two can't be denied ;). Blur4760 15:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

That's a nice one. Arschloch and Arcelor are phonetically quite similar to each other if pronounced in Luxembourgish. What's more, I think "s" regularly changes to "sch" in Luxembourgish (and in many other German dialects) if preceded by an "r". --Unoffensive text or character 14:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

luxembourgian?

Never in the 7 years I lived in Luxembourg did I hear anyone call the language "luxembourgian" it was always "luxembourgish". I would suggest removing any reference to "luxembourgian"

A google search for luxembourgish and luxembourgian certainly suggests that luxembourgian is a lot rarer, if it is at all allowed. Teutanic 16:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

'Luxembourgish' is the language. 'Luxembourgian' is the adjective for the country. They really shouldn't be confused. Hence, I have removed it from the introduction. Also, 'Luxemburgish' is an archaic spelling; English settled upon the French spelling of 'Luxembourg' in the early 20th century. Bastin 17:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I've always heard 'luxembourgish' as both language AND adjective. At least within the Ex-patriate english speaking community in Luxembourg nobody ever says 'luxembourgian'... Teutanic 13:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

In proper English orthography it should be Luxemburgish (without an "o", although with an "o" is so common that it would hardly be corrected any longer), Luxembourgeois, or even just Luxembourg, which is an adjective as well as noun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.169.9.14 (talk) 18:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

In academic articles about Luxembourg, the adjective used is "Luxembourgish" (with "o"). The language is also called "Luxembourgish" or, in some cases is referred by the native name "Lëtzebuergesch". People are called "Luxembourger(s)". To avoid the adjectival issue, academic literature also uses "Luxembourg": the Luxembourg government, Luxembourg literature. For the latter, this might be used to distinguish it from literature written in Luxembourgish, as opposed to Luxembourg literature written in either French, German, or Luxembourgish. Native literature is mostly trilingual. 91.37.236.107 (talk) 09:33, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

May 2006 rewrite

Hi all. I've just rewritten the article to bring it in line with the articles on other EU languages, and to include the extra information from the lb: article. My Luxembourgish isn't fantastic (I've only spent a little time there), so any checks on my translations and further suggestions for comment are very welcome! Aquilina 11:50, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

In Luxembourgish?

BERG, Guy, Mir wëlle bleiwe wat mir sin: Soziolinguistische und sprachtypologische Betrachtungen zur luxemburgischen Mehrsprachigkeit., Tübingen, 1993 (Reihe Germanistische Linguistik 140). ISBN 3-484-31140-1.

Is that book really in Luxembourgish? Although the sentence mir wëlle bleiwe wat mir sin is Luxembourgish, the rest of the title is in Standard German. Wathiik 10:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Mea culpa! Misread the title whilst re-writing the article and didn't notice - I've corrected the book list now. Many thanks! Aquilina 17:15, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I´m repeating my question as I wasn´t sure if I should write at the top or the bottom of the page: Question Hi. Can anyone tell me tell me more about the linguistic etiquette in Luxembourg. I am a native english-speaker but I also speak French and High German but not Luxembourgish. If I go to Luxembourg which language should I use to talk to people in the shops, on the streets etc?

05 July 2006

In shops: Always French, as many of the employees are from Belgium and France and will not condescend to speak any other language than French. On the streets: I always have the impression that most native Luxembourgers are more fluent in German than in French, but I am nor sure about it. Using German should not be a problem, anyway. --Unoffensive text or character 14:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Lux. orthography and pronunciation

The following passage appears in the article on Umlaut:

In Luxembourgish (Lëtzebuergesch), the umlaut diacritic in <ä> and <ë> represents a stressed schwa. Since the Luxembourgish language uses the mark to show stress, it cannot be used to modify the 'u' which therefore has to be 'ue'.

This seems to be almost totally inaccurate, but I prefer to check with people here. And it would be nice to have something about pronunciation in the Luxembourgish article (especially the vowels and diphthongs). CapnPrep 04:41, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Removed text

This belongs in an article on "Languages in Luxembourg" or something like that.

Standard German is called "Däitsch", or sometimes "Preisësch" (Prussian, which has slightly xenophobic undertones) in Luxembourg. Its most common uses are in Luxembourg's newspapers, and in primary school. The main administrative language in Luxembourg is French. Luxembourgish is used by all the radio stations in Luxembourg and is spoken by most of its citizens.

selected common phrases

I believe at least some of the examples in that section are misspelled, possibly based on regional variations (dialects). For example I believe "Gudden Muergen." Good Morning. should be written "Gudde Moien". But I'm generally no good at written Luxembourgish, so I will see whether someone else from Luxembourgish language wikipedia can take a quick look at that list.--Caranorn 21:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

You're right. Except that no one even uses 'Gudde Moien' anymore, most of the time it's just 'Moien', which basically means 'Hello'. Bababu 21:21, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I dare to doubt that 'potato' and 'political decency' belong into the section of selected common phrases. Also, It would make sense for the phrase for 'what's your name' to be more polite, so that it uses 'dir' instead of 'du' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.207.244.231 (talk) 20:47, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Unnecessary swearing

In the neologism section, is it really necessary to throw the F-word in there? It looks more gratuitous than important data.

I'm not against including the "seven words you can't say on TV" where they truly add something to the article, but I do not agree that there is a good reason to use that example when another would do.

Centercounter 09:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Orthography

Does anyone here know the standardized orthography?Cameron Nedland 02:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Not me, I asked on the Luxembourgish language wikipedia a while back to have someone check through this article as I had/have some doubts about some things. But as far as I can tell no one ever took the time.--Caranorn 11:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

How odd. Thank you.Cameron Nedland 21:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt7luAXrmmw —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.99.70.58 (talk) 00:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The current orthographie, set in the 1999 Law on the official orthography can be found on http://www.legilux.public.lu/leg/a/archives/1999/1121108/1121108.pdf

Users can also use the free spellchecker available from http://www.spellchecker.lu/ Standardised orthography is also used throughout on the Luxembourgish Wikipedia. 86.156.98.235 (talk) 18:23, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Status as an official language of Luxembourg?

The article currently says: "It was proclaimed one of the three official languages of Luxembourg in 1984 (along with French and German for judicial and administrative purposes)." I am not sure this is fully accurate. The text of the law (Loi du 24 février 1984 sur le régime des langues) does not describe Luxembourgish as an official language of the country, but rather as the national language of Luxembourgians. It goes on to say that legislation must be made in French, and if there is a translation then only the French text is official.

An article in the French Wikipedia states that in November 1976 Luxembourgian became, by decree, one of three official languages. However, that statement is uncited and I think it could be erroneous, presumably referring to the decree on orthography.

Some more information in English at the following links: [1], [2], [3], and [4].

--Mathew5000 (talk) 09:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I added a link to a somewhat hidden article that already discusses the language situation in Lux according to the 1984 text. And the National language article suggests that a legally declared national language is the same as an official language; this would apply to Luxembourgish. But I agree that the lead should be changed. CapnPrep (talk) 12:24, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

There are national languages that are not official languages, and (obviously) vice versa. However, in this case, it's quite clear-cut. The law itself states:

“ Art. 3. Langues administratives et judiciaires

En matiére administrative, contentieuse ou non contentieuse, et en matière judiciaire, il peut être fait usage des langues française, allemande ou luxembourgeois e, sans préjudice des dispositions spéciales concernant certaines matières.

Art. 4. Requêtes administratives
Lorsqu´une requête est rédigée en luxembourgeois, en français ou en allemand, l´administration doit se servir, dans la mesure du possible, pour sa réponse de la langue choisie par le requérant.

”

That is, the government is obligated to function co-equally in three languages: French, German, and Luxembourgish. That's the definition of an official language, so Luxembourgish clearly is one, as well as (as Article 1 states explicitly) the national language. Bastin 13:47, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The text of that law does not provide that the government is "obligated to function co-equally in three languages"; rather it provides that individuals have the right to use any of the three languages in administrative or judicial proceedings, and the right to communicate with the government in any of the three languages (as far as possible). But the law does not address which languages are to be used in the internal functions of the government. That said, I am not disputing the statement that Luxembourgish is an official language of Luxembourg. --Mathew5000 (talk) 17:47, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

It is worth pointing out that the Loi du 24 février 1984 sur le régime des langues (1984 Languages Act) does not actually use the wording "official" in its law text. As for "internal" language matters, it is worth pointing out that the Luxembourg Government offers Luxembourgish Spelling Classes to civil servants and that there is a "Guide de rédaction" on how to write documents in French: http://www.gouvernement.lu/publications/luxembourg/guide_redaction/index.html 91.37.205.166 (talk) 14:24, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Language and politics

Most Luxembourgish speak usually in German as demonstrated by the fact that according to Wikipedia (Luxembourg) 85% of articles in Luxembourg are published in German language and just 3% in Luxembourgish.

The reason trying to build a different national identity in Luxembourg from German Lander is political. WIR SIND EIN VOLK.--81.37.39.134 (talk) 02:51, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

You clearly didn't read the article and you don't know much about Luxemburg. The article says Luxemburgers must learn German at school. If they already spoke it they would not need to be taught it! And just because articles are printed in German there doesn't mean anything about what people speak at home. In Luxemburg language use differs according to function, as the article makes clear. However, the last 4 words of your post betray your political agenda. Vauxhall1964 (talk) 19:28, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, this is odd, because I not only spoke English growing up but every year seemed to take a class called "English" wherein I learned about the English language. It looked to me like I learned English in school even though I already spoke it. Odd that. Ekwos (talk) 07:24, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

> If they already spoke it they would not need to be taught it!

Sigh... Luxemburgers learn High German at school, at home they speak the Luxemburgish variant of the Moselle Franconian dialects, like the dialect speakers around Luxembourg speak their dialects and learn High German (in Germany) of French in France at school.

Here's a dialect map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Brockhaus_1894_Deutsche_Mundarten.jpg Dialects with a similar or the same colour will be mutually intelligible more easily, dialects with different colurs not so much. For me, who grew up in the Eifel very close to Lux., Letzeburgisch is easy to understand, but a Bavarian dialect is not. High German (the official form of German) is close to the dialects around Hannover. Had Trier's dialect been the standard that became High German, all Germans would understand Luxembourgish today. ;-)

A little detail: Note their difference between Luxemburgish and North-Luxemburgish. Dialects change a little from village to village, and to define a standard Luxembourgish is political. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.86.2.76 (talk) 23:16, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Academic Projects

The two projects described are not academic projects. Cortina is no longer running and, as a spellchecker, is replaced by Spellchecker.lu, which is an ongoing project. As for Laf (Luxebourgish as a Foreign Language), not much academic research has been published on this matter. The mere fact that is taught as a language does not validate scholarship.

Could the section "Academic Projects" please be either deleted or updated? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.37.205.166 (talk) 14:30, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Luxembourgish is NOT synonymous with Moselle Franconian

As written, the article states:

Luxembourgish is also spoken in small parts of the surrounding countries of Belgium (in the Province of Luxembourg near Arlon), France (in small parts of Lorraine) and Germany (around Bitburg and Trier). In Germany and Lorraine it is simply considered the local German dialect. Since the Second World War, however, the language has not been taught in these countries, with the result that use of Luxembourgish is largely restricted to the older generations.

I'd imagine that the speakers of Luxembourgish in Belgian Luxembourg probably identify their language as Luxembourgish, but "Trierer Platt" (Trier "Low German") is a Moselle Franconian dialect, as is the dialect in Lorraine. This passage suggests that while the languages in these areas might be "considered" the local dialect, they in fact are speaking Luxembourgish. This suggests that there is no distinction between Moselle Franconian and Luxembourgish.

One might make the case for this, say, were the city of Luxembourg a cultural center from which linguistic influence radiated into the surrounding regions, but this would be a completely ahistorical view. Until modern times, that cultural center has been Trier, specifically, the Archdiocese of Trier, of which Luxembourg was a constituent part until Napoleon. Luxembourg itself did not become an archdiocese until 1988. This is the reason, for instance, why the Rhine Franconian dialect of Saarbrücken never penetrated the entirety of the Saarland: the influence of Trier was too strong.

A more accurate description would be that Luxembourgish is a Moselle Franconian dialect in the process of becoming a standardized national language, though it will not likely supplant the role of Standard High German and French in public life.

--Janko (talk) 07:57, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

You are right that it's a variety of Moselle Franconian and not a synonym. Though that specific Luxembourgish variety is spoken around Diedennuewen (=Thionville in French) and in Belgium, and is refered as such by cultural associations trying to save what's left of it. The map in the article is quite helpfull. Correjon (talk) 14:15, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

The thing is that when the Grand-Duchy was still only a Duchy, it was more grand; and both Thionville with some other regions and the Belgian Province of Luxembourg, which has its name for a reason, were part of it.--93.133.239.246 (talk) 00:00, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Confusingly, the information on the map conflicts with the information in the facing text: whatever is spoken in the 'Arelerland' appears on the map as Moselle-Franconian (i.e. it is not striped), just like the dialects is spoken in Lorraine and Germany, whereas the text states quite clearly that it is not Moselle-Franconian but Luxembourgish. The article on the Arelerland also says the local language is Luxembourgish, and makes no mention of Moselle-Franconian. A lot of tidying-up seems to be needed here. I can't really agree with the comment below about this being an 'excellent' language/dialect article!213.127.210.95 (talk) 15:11, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Phonology

The article needs a section concerning the phonology of Luxembourgish. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:44, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I've started a section about the vowels, with information that I've taken from a grammar book. The IPA isn't quite consistent with the transcriptions on the page though. For example, is <ë> rather /œ/ or /ə/? And I don't know if <oo> is /oː/ or /ɔː/. According to my book, both exist, but it didn't say which "long o" the word Sprooch has. And I need to add consonants, of course. Mats (talk) 11:44, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

⟨ë⟩ is conventionally transcribed with ⟨ə⟩ but it varies between [œ] and [ɨ]; the latter occurs particularly in unstressed syllables and is the same as the preconsonantal German non-open schwa, which is also broadly transcribed with ⟨ə⟩. I don't have a source for that at the moment, but Gilles & Trouvain (2013) provide an allophonic range for the schwa much like [œ ~ ɨ], but they don't say that it's the stressed allophone that is rounded, whereas the unstressed one usually isn't. Therefore, it's inaccurate to say that the historical /e/ has centralized to [ə] in most positions except before a following velar. The rounding is more important, as rounded front vowels are typically not fully front anyway (also, Hans Basbøll notes in his Phonology of Danish how similar [ə] and [œ] are to each other, that [œ] is basically the closest cardinal vowel to [ə]. This, I imagine, is precisely the reason why the English NURSE vowel is approximated with [œː] or [œɐ̯] in Standard German, and also Luxembourgish (as [œː])). In Dutch for instance, they are very often central, [ʉ, ʉː, ɵ, ɵː ~ ɵʉ, ɞː, ɐɵ] instead of [y, yː, ʏ̞, øː, œː, œy] (the 2nd and the 5th vowel is non-native, by the way).

Therefore, older [e] -> contemporary [ø] except before a velar (I'm using ⟨ø⟩ here to denote any non-back mid rounded vowel regardless of its exact height and backness - though ⟨œ⟩ is probably a better choice). But this destroys the narrative that Luxembourgish doesn't have non-back rounded vowels on a phonemic level, or that they occur only in non-native words, when neither are true. The main allophone of /e/ is [œ]. If you used [e] instead of it, the result would sound as either /i/ (phonetically [i ~ ɪ]) or, less often, /æ/ (phonetically [æ ~ ɛ]), depending on the exact height of the mispronounced (unrounded) /e/. Unless there's a dialectal variation that I'm not aware of, that is. That makes /œ/ and not /e/ a phoneme. The main difference between it and /æ/ is, surprise surprise, rounding.

The actual short vowel system of Luxembourgish is probably this:

	Front		Back
	unrounded	rounded
Close	i		u
Close-mid			o
Open-mid	æ	œ
Open			ɑ

+Unstressed-only schwas [ɨ, ɐ], roughly similar to [i, ɑ]

Rather than this:

	Front	Back
Close	i	u
Close-mid	e	o
Open-mid	æ
Open		ɑ

Let alone this:

	Front	Back
Close	i	u
Mid	e	o
Open	æ	ɑ

I'd rather use ⟨ɛ⟩ for the open short E, but anyway. The first classification can account for all of the non-native vowels, namely [y, yː, øː, œː] as well as [ɛː] in French and German loanwords, the latter not discussed by Gilles & Trouvain (though [œː, ɛː] are not truly non-native as they're simply elongated /œ/ and /æ/ with little change in articulation; also [ɛː] occurs independently as an allophone of /eː/ before /r/).

	Front		Back
	unrounded	rounded
Close	iː	yː	uː
Close-mid	eː	øː	oː
Open-mid	ɛː	œː
Open	aː

See? This is a perfect fit. Or almost so, as /aː/ is a phonological back vowel that triggers the uvular allophones of /χ, ʁ/. But that rule can be easily modified to apply only to close and mid vowels, I think. Then we'd no longer have to pretend that /aː/ is "back" when, in reality, it's a fully front vowel.

The close-open distinction among the mid vowels is most probably phonemic, but only among long vowels. Because among the short ones, the only candidate is the /æ–œ/ pair that here is analyzed as differing in rounding. This would make Luxembourgish the same as Dutch in that it features one lax front rounded vowel (Dutch /y/ is a tense, distinctly short vowel like Dutch /i/ and /u/. At least phonologically. Phonetically, it's more lax than tense, more like [ʏ] or [ʉ̞]). In fact, the Luxembourgish system /i, u, æ, œ, o, ɑ/ is very similar to regional Standard Dutch /ɪ, ʏ, o, ɛ, ɔ, ɑ/ (Standard Dutch has only one mid back rounded vowel [o], incorrectly transcribed with ⟨ɔ⟩ by most sources. ⟨ʏ⟩ is also incorrect, as it suggests a vowel that is too close, whereas in reality it's more like [ɵ]).

"But your /œ/ is raised and unrounded to [e] before velars", you'll say. That's true. But, at least before the velar nasal, this isn't the only change to the short vowel system. The mid back /o/ seems to be missing altogether as it merges with /u/. /æ/ is probably also rare in this position, but it occurs in e.g. keng. The close front /i/ could also be missing, with [e] being its closest equivalent. If all of this is correct, then the *phonetic* short vowel system (or just "vowel system" if, as in Standard German, long vowels aren't permitted in this position) before /ŋ/ is the following:

	Front		Back
	unrounded	rounded
Close			u
Close-mid	e
Open-mid	æ
Open			ɑ

Crazy, huh? The change in the phonetic height of /œ/ is perfectly in line with what happens with the lax vowels /æ/ and /ɪ/ in some North American English varieties. In those, /æ/ and /ɪ/ are raised all the way to [e] and [i], it's just the way that Luxembourgish /œ/ loses its rounding in my analysis that is different.

The [æ] vowel looks at least semi-non-native to me. It stands for ⟨e⟩ in German loanwords whenever ⟨e⟩ stands for [œ] in native words. If a Luxembourger wants to approximate German /œ/, he just uses the main allophone of Luxembourgish /e/ and it feels "weird" only before velars where he has to suppress the unrounding. All in all, [œ] is *not* a non-native vowel. /e/ might be a marginal *native* phoneme that occurs before velars, where it perhaps contrasts with /œ/ in some well-established loans from French and German (I can't think of any minimal pair right now).

The standard long mid back vowel is /oː/. It's very close, almost [u]-like. The open-mid [ɔː] occurs dialectally instead of /aː/, but I'm not sure about its phonemic status. If it replaces /aː/ in all positions or at least predictably in some positions, then it's not a phoneme but a regional realization of /aː/ (just like Utrecht [æ, ɑː] are mere regional varieties of Standard Dutch /ɑ, aː/, the difference between brackets and slashes is crucial in this case). If the replacement is more or less haphazard, then those varieties feature an additional /ɔː/ phoneme not found in the standard language. Sol505000 (talk) 10:56, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Excellent

I wish more language/dialect articles were this good. 155.213.224.59 (talk) 12:40, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Cassé

How can 'cassé' ('broken') possibly be French for '(you've been) owned'? More to the point, what is '(you've been) owned' supposed to mean? I'm a native English speaker, and I've no idea.213.127.210.95 (talk) 15:24, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

I think it means what Sheldon means when he says Bazinga.--2001:A61:260D:6E01:4506:68F3:AE30:F562 (talk) 19:12, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

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phonology audio file

the youtube wikicommon'd sound clip has zero seconds of the two minute fifty nine second video. can someone more learned than ourselves fix this glitchMrphilip (talk) 14:54, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

WEELZER IS WEEZER CONFIRMED?!?!?!

Charles Hardin Holley (September 7, 1936 – February 3, 1959), known as Buddy Holly, was an American singer and songwriter who was a central and pioneering figure of mid-1950s rock and roll. He was born to a musical family in Lubbock, Texas, during the Great Depression, and learned to play guitar and sing alongside his siblings. Holly's style was influenced by gospel music, country music, and rhythm and blues acts, which he performed in Lubbock with his friends from high school Kaukênteo (talk) 08:29, 19 February 2024 (UTC)