Talk:Tyla/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: Dxneo (talk · contribs) 17:49, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Chchcheckit (talk · contribs) 09:48, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Alright I'll work on this soon. Never heard of this artist before this but can say they are very cool. 09:48, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Haha, I'm South African but only knew about her til last year. Have fun! dxneo (talk) 11:07, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

hhhhhh people are editing frequently, potentially unstable. also the song cerifications thing; what about Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Certifications? also when compared to metallica discography... ghhhhh

Other than that, on a surface level, images have appropriate rationale with captions. i'll try look some more into this // Chchcheckit (talk) 13:30, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, some references are inaccessible online or behind a paywall. Is it possible for you to quote the text from these sources when needed/applicable? i.e. Tyla's full name [from Hendricks 2021, "YOU chats to singer Tyla"] and birthday from this source? thanks (adressed) // Chchcheckit (talk) 14:10, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

writing and prose

• Prose is pretty good: pending

Factual accuracy and references

• TBC

Coverage

• No mention of the 2023 Tyla EP in discography? [1][2] (Not needed; already mentioned)
• Artistry section appears to be somewhat lacking, as it primarily covers Tyla's influences (nothing bad with what is written there). I suggest using the Tyla album page and critic sources to refer back to an analysis of Tyla's musical style perhaps? This doesn't have to be major though.

Copyvio

• Images are tagged and captioned appropriately
• Earwig copyvio detector is mostly good, besides this comparison between an allafrica article from february 2024. I believe that the article took/copied from the wikipedia page rather than the article copying it. THAT BEING SAID: article should be removed as a citation for being Citogenesis. It is currently cited for the promotional singles "On and On" and "Butterflies"; are there any other sources that support them?

Chchcheckit, I find it difficult to address these issues as they are not clear. What's wrong with the discography? And about the self-titled EP, it is cited to this source. There's not much to say about it as it was included in the eponymous studio album. Can you format your requests into sections and point form so that I know where to look rather than have me wondering all over the article Thank you. dxneo (talk) 14:07, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

sorry my bad for being unclear. i have been there before. ill think of something but for now:

Coverage

• discography was mostly me getting confused. you are right. nevermind sorry
• Artistry section lists Tyla's influences whilst providing no commentary on what her artistry or style is.
• Artistry: "She has said that her dream is to become the first global pop star from Africa. She has since been deemed the "Queen of Popiano", after coining the term "popiano" which is a fusion of the pop and amapiano genres." is a relevant quote and is good, but reading this I don't actually know what her style is. I can and will elaborate on this point if you want to discuss this, though I don't want to editorialize

Copyvio

• allafrica citation is here: appears to have copied from wikipedia article, so citing it is circular reporting and should be removed with something else that supports the promo singles.

Chchcheckit (talk) 14:49, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Chchcheckit, I have replaced the AllAfrica source and I'm ready to discuss and resolve the artistry issues. dxneo (talk) 15:44, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm really struggling to communicate what bothers me about artisty. I like how it is concise but feel as though there should be more comment: i.e. "Tyla's sound has been categorized as... Her sound makes use of... Sensibilities..." etc. That kind of thing. But the album does a better job for that. I feel like I'm overreacting. Whilst we figure this out I'm just going to move on with the rest of the article. Chchcheckit (talk) 13:57, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you dxneo (talk) 14:49, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@dnxeo ANYWAY: as of August 8, 2024. more to come

reasonably well written

• For the most part, yeah

factually accurate/references

A mix of spotchecks. and other stuff.

• "Tyla Laura Seethal was born on 30 January 2002". (here) The two sources regarding Tyla's birth date and full name) are behind paywalls. Could you please type out/copy the relevant text from these articles to confirm the statement?
• The source "Why Tyla's global success means South Africa has to explain being coloured again"." does not support the comment that Tyla is of indian descent. the rest of the citations do.
• ["Getting Late"] amassed several million views on YouTube". (here) Currently linked to a business insider article which does not support the content. This source linked in the article does, however; please replace.
• Tyla's first public performance occurred in 2023 during the Dolce & Gabbana afterparty at Milan Fashion Week The Glamour source states it was Tyla's “first-ever fashion debut", not performance. HOWEVER: BBC and Rolling Stone UK support this. please fix.
• Copyvio has been fixed; there are no majorly long quotes, and is written pretty well

broad in coverage

• addresses/has headings for all relevant content
• we shall revisit artisty pls hold

NPOV

• pending

Stable

No disputed changes as of late. Chchcheckit (talk) 15:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Dxneo? Chchcheckit (talk) 10:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I actually don't know what required to address here but okay

• l have added the full name source, as for the birth date, the News24 source got it all as it says "Tyla Laura Seethal entered the world on 30 January 2002 in Edenvale on the East Rand, one of five kids born to Sharleen Jasmin" or you want me to find a free access source?
• "Getting Late" did accumulate millions of views and that source supports that claim. I don't know why I should replace it.
• For public performance, I have reused a source. Thank you for spotting that.

dxneo (talk) 12:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• The birth source is fine as it is, thank you for clarifying.
• I'm suggesting you change the source because the article is citing another source for that information. Wouldn't it be better to get the "millions of views" straight from the original source instead of a second-hand one?
• cool.

Chchcheckit (talk) 13:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

It isn't "second-hand," what you are looking for is not acceptable as I'd have to cite YouTube itself. I saw several sources saying "Getting Late" amassed millions of views. Remember primary sources are considered unreliable, and since YouTube is red flagged, I prefer any secondary source. dxneo (talk) 14:27, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• To clarify: I am not suggesting you cite youtube, for the exact reasons you state above. I was merely suggesting that you used this source as cited in the business insider article. If you think this source is unreliable, then it's best to search for another source.
• To help you out: you could write (roughly speaking) that the "Getting Late" video received over one million views in just over a month of its release (this source and this source) later amassing over nine million views by march 2024.
• Suggestion: appears to be little comment on Tyla's international major label bidding war. From what I can find here and here, Sylvia Rhone of Epic Records put up billboards in Johannesburg to show their support to Tyla, FAX Records owner Brandon Hixon's (who has managed Tyla since 2018) relationship with Epic and the promise of creative control were all factors leading to Tyla's signing with the label. It seems a little curious why this is glossed over.

Chchcheckit (talk) 13:25, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

We cannot say it surpassed "9 million" views as that number is constantly changing, the video is now on 10 million. Get my point? Oh and that The South African source is a green source (reliable). I get where you are coming from though. I used to patrol WP:PRs and what I have learned is that we must keep the article concise and precise, but I do think that manager content deserves inclusion. dxneo (talk) 13:38, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

OKay, understood ty. With this in mind, let's actually get to the artisty dilemma. I have my words and sources in order now. Going to type up below, please hold.

Also, stability and reference checks have passed now. Chchcheckit (talk) 11:05, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

The Artisty Section

• From a general standpoint (which has been briefly noted on the page), the genre is described as a pop and R&B influenced version of ampiano, featuring shorter song lengths (as in, 3 minutes instead of seven or eight)
• From what I can see from early interviews, the term "Popiano" was not coined by Tyla but by people on social media reacting to "Getting Late"; was embraced by artist thereafter. (see here and here)

Here's a rough idea of what I think should be added underneath the influences section:

• "Tyla's sound has been described as "popiano", a variant of amapiano featuring elements of pop, R&B, and Afrobeat, whilst placing an emphasis on hooks and vocals."
• perhaps in the lead: "she has
• From an NME interview: "When I first started making Amapiano music, originally there was no song structure: the songs were like five minutes and just vibes. But I really wanted to have a structure — a verse, chorus, pre-chorus — like pop music, so I shortened the songs, kept the log drum and just gave it structure." (also supported by Dazed
• The "popiano" sound was invented during the recording of "Getting Late", and the BBC (casually creating a new genre in the process), Stereogum (“Getting Late” was Tyla’s proof-of-concept for “popiano”) and the Daily Maverick have essentially credited its release of "Getting Late" for establishing the genre.
• She has since been deemed the "Queen of Popiano". supported by Vibe and daily maverick

ADDTNL sources?

• "Tyla’s description of her sound as a mix of amapiano, afrobeats, pop, and R&B which she calls ‘popiano’ " (Beats Per Minute)
• https://www.okayafrica.com/tyla-water-producer-sammy-soso/

this is messy idea splurging and there's no aims in this comment: but I want to know what you think about them. Chchcheckit (talk) 12:10, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Dxneo Chchcheckit (talk) 22:58, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I did not forget about this mate, I will address them a little after few hours Thank you. dxneo (talk) 01:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

quick one btw: "Born and raised in Johannesburg,", should this be "Born in Edenvale and raised in Johannesburg," instead? Chchcheckit (talk) 14:34, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that's a possibility. Sony Music, Business Insider, Capital Xtra, People and even TFG Limited just to mention a few, state that she was born and raised in Johannesburg. dxneo (talk) 15:45, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Chchcheckit, let's get this over with, I want to move on from this GA.

• About coining the term "popiano", you should see the source cited to that claim as it reads "In the thick of this digital activity, Tyla managed to produce a debut single called Getting Late, which was released in 2019, when she was just out of high school. The song’s “popiano” energy – a term she has coined to describe her hybrid sound – earned her a global deal with Epic records."
• Moving on, I have addressed the elements of R&B and Afrobeats issues. I cannot give a description of popiano on that article. 3 minutes and 2 choruses are should be added on amapiano article or pop music.

Is there something I'm missing? dxneo (talk) 17:25, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• I don't think that's a possibility. then which one is it; Johannesburg or Edenvale?
• To counter your point. 2021 interview; “We’ve seen people calling it ‘popiano’!” Tyla adds. and this 2023 interview; People started calling it “popiano” because it is my own sound. and this 2024 interview; The song sparked a wave of makeshift monikers and sonic descriptors from amapiano enthusiasts online. “‘This is cool, but this isn’t really amapiano, it’s popiano,’” Tyla recalls one of the comments saying. Again: Tyla did NOT coin the term "popiano", and she acknowledges that the discourse(?)/comments around her/"Getting Late" is where the term came from.
• second point/added content is satisfactory, ty

Chchcheckit (talk) 18:36, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Haha okay mate, Edenvale is a city in East Rand, which is a part of Joburg, does that clarify it? I'm South African, should've just put it like this in the first place, my apologies.
• Technically we can argue all day that she coined it or she didn't. I can present multiple sources stating that she coined and you'll defend it. She's still the only (notable) popiano artist and she popularized it. I believe you are supposed to review the content on this article, and so far I think it is verifiable (meaning it's not OR as it is references to RS). So, since this is the only issue left to address, what do we do from here?

dxneo (talk) 19:13, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Thanks, I did not realise.
• I'm not here to argue with you, I'm here to discuss because I want the article to be better where it can. I find the lack of real information about Tyla's style a little odd when compared to most pages. I'm going to ask for a second opinion so we can resolve this issue once and for all, and then we'll be done. This is the last thing before I will GA this—and I mean it when I say it.

Chchcheckit (talk) 21:13, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Chchcheckit, the thing with second opinion is it's gonna take long close this and I wanna split the article. I just addressed it. I wanna move this and that to article space and also got to work on Wikipedia:Peer review/Tyla (album)/archive1, which you might help me with if you don't mind. dxneo (talk) 21:54, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

then i'll permit you to do both things in the name of improving the article to GA. Chchcheckit (talk) 12:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand, what I wanna do is split the article into three articles. Wouldn't that mess up the review? But okay, it's all in your (reviewers) hands now Thank you so much for tackling this GAC. dxneo (talk) 13:30, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Chchcheckit, @Dxneo, it sounds at a quick glance here like you actually both agree the review should be failed? The nom wants to split the article into three articles, and there's an outstanding issue about 3a/3b - why not just end the review and get to work on the split? -- asilvering (talk) 16:53, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to end it because usually with previous GA reviwers I've worked with, i get suggestions to change things and we work on things and usually it ends up passing. I feel bad because I genuinely don't know if nom doesn't understand what i'm trying to explain or if I'm wrong about 3a/3b. Chchcheckit (talk) 17:55, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes you get stuck in a WP:FIXLOOP and the best thing to do is fail the article and let the nominator either keep working on it, or try their luck with another reviewer. But I agree, it really sucks emotionally to fail articles once someone's been working on your suggestions. In this case, since the nom wants to split the article, it doesn't make good sense (imo) to promote it at this time, since the individual pieces of the article that remain here would then probably be worth taking the article to GAR over. Basically I think you're failing it on #5 grounds, if that makes sense. True, there's no disruption, but it's not actually stable, either. -- asilvering (talk) 19:33, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Well Asilvering, I do think that article is definitely GA material with or without the split. It's such a pity I nominated the article before splitting it. And it's not that the article is not stable, editor are constantly updating the awards section (links, nom, pending and so on), and if the split is successfully then I believe the article won't be edited this much anymore. Although it's a good thing to maintain an article, whether it's at GAC or FAC. So, what's the way forward guys? dxneo (talk) 20:32, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Having only read these comments (ie, I have not done a second opinion GA review), my opinion is that the best course of action is to close this GAN as unsuccessful, and for you to split the article however you like and resubmit when you think the split versions are ready. If that means "immediately", go ahead and resubmit them immediately. But split them first. Again, that's my opinion from reading this thread. -- asilvering (talk) 20:52, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Asilvering, splitting the article will only remove the tables and lists, not prose. Will it even make sense to re-nominate after splitting? But I think I'll add more prose regarding the accolades though. I guess it's okay to close as unsuccessful for now Thank you. dxneo (talk) 20:56, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I still wouldn't say I've done a full second-opinion read, but I've given it a read and would agree with the reviewer's comments about the Artistry section. It's my sense that this article doesn't presently meet criteria 3a/b. I'd suggest that you expand that section before nominating the article again. -- asilvering (talk) 21:05, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Cool. dxneo (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2024 (UTC)